Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised.
Speaker 2: Hi, this is Danish Forts and I am so thrilled
Speaker 2: to be here today with a very special interview. I'm
Speaker 2: talking to doctor Hugh Doherty, who's a professor at the
Speaker 2: University of East Anglia in the UK. He focuses, I think,
Speaker 2: primarily on medieval topics. Your lecture in medieval subjects, but
Speaker 2: very exciting to my personal interests is he served as
Speaker 2: the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series A
Speaker 2: Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I just want to
Speaker 2: be very clear, this is not a sponsored episode.
Speaker 1: No one is paying me to do this.
Speaker 2: I just genuinely personally love television show so much and
Speaker 2: so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you,
Speaker 2: doctor Doherty.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here, just.
Speaker 1: To I've write in.
Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about your field and
Speaker 2: your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not
Speaker 2: consulting for historical fantasy series.
Speaker 3: I have an expertise in tenth and eleventh and twelfth
Speaker 3: century Europe, and as a result of my own choice,
Speaker 3: I wanted to teach I mean fascinated with ancient history,
Speaker 3: so I teach a module on the Roman Empire and
Speaker 3: I also teach a module on the One Hundred Years War.
Speaker 3: So I know a little about a lot.
Speaker 2: Well, that's sort of the motto for this podcast, where
Speaker 2: I've covered several thousands of years of history.
Speaker 1: What I love.
Speaker 2: About A Night of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of
Speaker 2: Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in
Speaker 2: a fantasy world, but there are analogs to real British history.
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of
Speaker 2: Throne series is a take on the Wars of the
Speaker 2: Roses in the fifteenth century and the House of the
Speaker 2: Dragon sort of. The prequel series seems inspired by the
Speaker 2: anarchy the period with Empress Matilda. When does the Night
Speaker 2: of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm going to say take place again,
Speaker 2: even though it is very much a fantasy series.
Speaker 3: I agree with everything you've said about, by the way,
Speaker 3: about A nine to Seven Kingdoms, I've only seen the
Speaker 3: first two episodes.
Speaker 1: At the moment, oh, you gotta get on it. The ending,
Speaker 1: really they really stick the ending.
Speaker 3: I know, I just thought they were marvelous, and in fact,
Speaker 3: they were so good they made me go back and
Speaker 3: watch The House of Dragon, which I had not seen,
Speaker 3: and I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but
Speaker 3: absolutely spellbound. In answer to your really interesting observation and question,
Speaker 3: by noting that I think George R. Martin is a
Speaker 3: superb historian. He knows his stuff. It's not just he
Speaker 3: knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the
Speaker 3: operation of power in these societies like few other people do.
Speaker 3: And I think it's in a fantastic job. And often,
Speaker 3: as I've said that, the Game of Thrones, House of Dragon,
Speaker 3: and now Night the Seven Kingdoms are often more accurate
Speaker 3: in how they represent the texture of society than series
Speaker 3: and films that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So
Speaker 3: I think that's an important point to note. I think
Speaker 3: Night of the Seven Kingdoms, when I talked to Ira Parker,
Speaker 3: the writer and showrunner about the period, he'd asked George R. Martin,
Speaker 3: what was the sort of you know that if he
Speaker 3: had to spin it to a particular century, which centry
Speaker 3: would it be? And George R. Martin came back with
Speaker 3: the fourteenth and that is the as you know, it
Speaker 3: is the age of the Tournament and of the first
Speaker 3: two thirds of the one hundred Years War.
Speaker 2: So how did you, obviously you know a lot about
Speaker 2: the Hundred Yard's War in this period, how did you
Speaker 2: connect with Ara Parker who created the show alongside George R.
Speaker 1: Martin and the team at HBO.
Speaker 3: It's just luck I've done this before. It all started
Speaker 3: by somebody When I was at Oxford, I was a
Speaker 3: research fellow and someone at someone at the history faculty
Speaker 3: got received a phone call and from a film company
Speaker 3: who needed somebody to advise on something else. This as
Speaker 3: many years ago, and this person who answered the phones
Speaker 3: that are I know someone? So I said yes to that,
Speaker 3: and I've been sort of picking up the phone or
Speaker 3: answering emails ever since. So it was word of mouth essentially.
Speaker 3: So it was a great joy to be asked as
Speaker 3: a fan of Game of Thrones long before all of this,
Speaker 3: it was a great it was an honor to be asked.
Speaker 3: And essentially it came down to Ira and myself having
Speaker 3: these interviews with Ira, I think in la and myself
Speaker 3: here in Norwich and Easter in Norfolk in England. Just
Speaker 3: discussing tournament culture, nightly politics, warfare, one hundred Years War.
Speaker 3: It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail, you know,
Speaker 3: he more detailed the better, and he had lots of
Speaker 3: fascinating questions. It was a real joy to sort of
Speaker 3: be engaged in the creative process at an early stage.
Speaker 3: You know, I've been on productions where I've been invited
Speaker 3: in at the very last minute and then to some
Speaker 3: extent everything is fixed. While with this I could suggest
Speaker 3: things that could be then fed into the script and
Speaker 3: the writing.
Speaker 2: It's very exciting to me what this show did. And
Speaker 2: like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval
Speaker 2: world obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world.
Speaker 2: But what a Night of the Seven Kingdoms does that
Speaker 2: other Game of Thrones series don't do. Is it's very
Speaker 2: focused on a brief period of time rather than spanning years.
Speaker 2: We are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about what tournament culture was like in
Speaker 2: the thirteen hundreds in England?
Speaker 3: I will start by saying that there is a sort
Speaker 3: of youth. There was a nightly culture that united all
Speaker 3: of Europe. So the same men who on battlefields are
Speaker 3: trying to kill each other, are on the tournament field,
Speaker 3: interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen, and as
Speaker 3: colleagues and as fellow diners and feasts. It's an aspect
Speaker 3: of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe.
Speaker 3: So it's something that they share. So what at the
Speaker 3: same time they're often killing each other in the great
Speaker 3: battlefields and sieges of the One hundred Years War, at
Speaker 3: the same time that in moments of truces or peace
Speaker 3: or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating
Speaker 3: in these tournaments. They were splendid opportunities for the elite
Speaker 3: of Europe to gather, to show off their wealth, their accouterments,
Speaker 3: their gear, their households. And the comparison I've always made
Speaker 3: is that tournaments were much like film festivals in that
Speaker 3: it was as much about what was happening after the
Speaker 3: film showings, the soires, their dinners, as what's happening in
Speaker 3: the film showings, and so it was as much about
Speaker 3: what's happening off the tournament field as on it. There's
Speaker 3: no doubt that there is. The principal action is the
Speaker 3: demonstration of skill at arms on the tournament field for
Speaker 3: all to see, and then this will occupy each day,
Speaker 3: and then in the evenings they'll be feasting and dancing
Speaker 3: and poetry and interaction between competitors and between women and
Speaker 3: families and households. And I think that The Night the
Speaker 3: Seven Kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out,
Speaker 3: that that interaction that happens off the torment field. So
Speaker 3: there is great drama on the field, and that drama
Speaker 3: could be you know, they could it could be just
Speaker 3: knights torning against each other, but they might also reenact
Speaker 3: episodes from antiquity, from the classical world, all from the
Speaker 3: legendary world. So it develops in Spain. Actually, this this
Speaker 3: notion that knights would hold a bridge and would defy
Speaker 3: any other night to cross the bridge, or that they
Speaker 3: would re enact a battle of King Arthur.
Speaker 1: It's like children playing Red Rover King of the Hell.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, there's a it's as much about re enactment and display.
Speaker 3: It's a celebration of the aristocratic imagination.
Speaker 1: What I always found you brought up King Arthur.
Speaker 2: I've always found it personally fascinating that to a modern
Speaker 2: lay person, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagining
Speaker 2: him is in the fourteenth century as a knight of chivalry, when,
Speaker 2: of course King Arthur, who didn't exist, if he did
Speaker 2: exist at all, would have been you know, ninth century maybe.
Speaker 2: But I find it very interesting that our popular image
Speaker 2: of this character is in the era where he was popularized.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I know of Medievlis who don't like the kind
Speaker 3: of thing I do, who you know, laugh at or
Speaker 3: comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate and
Speaker 3: to give it text joh and so on. But I
Speaker 3: think it's what's really interesting is that the kind of
Speaker 3: world that George R. R. Martin has created is one
Speaker 3: that any fourteenth, fifth, deenth century audience would have loved.
Speaker 3: I mean, the tales of knightly drama, of heroes rising
Speaker 3: through the ranks. This is that world of Arthur that
Speaker 3: they love reading about, hearing about, and re enacting. So
Speaker 3: there is actually a nice continuation between the as you say,
Speaker 3: the legendary world of Arthur that they believe in and
Speaker 3: they love, and that has shaped Western culture, you know,
Speaker 3: the pre Raphaelites, Wagner Excalibur up to Game of Thrones.
Speaker 3: It's part of a in a way, a shared tradition
Speaker 3: that we are still buying into.
Speaker 2: They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional night the
Speaker 2: same way we're talking about Sir Duncan Natal.
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, and in the same way that people who
Speaker 3: watch The Night of Seven Kingdoms on a Sunday evening
Speaker 3: in the States on Monday evening here would go to
Speaker 3: work the following day things exactly with their their imaginations
Speaker 3: captured as they're on the underground or the bus or
Speaker 3: driving to work and they're thinking about tournament culture and
Speaker 3: daring do and honor and all this sort of thing.
Speaker 3: I think the fourteenth century audience thought exactly the same.
Speaker 3: When they were on their way to church or you know,
Speaker 3: going to see family, or going to the law courts
Speaker 3: or inspecting their stables, they were also thinking about Arthur
Speaker 3: and the Knights of the Round Table, so they it
Speaker 3: populated their imaginative landscapes.
Speaker 2: And to be frank and I don't want to generalize,
Speaker 2: but it does seem like for most people being alive
Speaker 2: in the fourteenth century would have been quite boring and
Speaker 2: bleak and challenging and physically arduous. I imagine these tournaments
Speaker 2: were a opportunity for a chance for levity and fun
Speaker 2: and community that might not, you know, we might just
Speaker 2: be church and working in a field.
Speaker 3: The rest of the time, they were immensely popular. They
Speaker 3: were great fun. I would say, no age likes to
Speaker 3: think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when
Speaker 3: we have evidence there is a lot of drinking, merry making,
Speaker 3: dancing in the lives of peasant farmers, I mean that's
Speaker 3: not There's also starvation, and there is harsh justice.
Speaker 1: And there is a fairmine around this era exactly so.
Speaker 3: And plague, but you know, plague is no respector of rank,
Speaker 3: was no respector of rank, as COVID was no respector
Speaker 3: of rank. And it's also been pointed out the number
Speaker 3: of Saints Days. Saints Day's are holidays, and there are
Speaker 3: so many Saints Days, it's sometimes difficult to say how
Speaker 3: many days these farmers are actually working.
Speaker 2: They got more time off than than most Americans.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But having said all that, there is no doubt
Speaker 3: that tournaments were in immense draw for all different sections
Speaker 3: of society. I think what we also have to remember
Speaker 3: is that it was talked about, so even if people
Speaker 3: weren't there, it was talked about and listened to in
Speaker 3: the weeks and months afterwards. And that that was a
Speaker 3: I know. I remember being in a restaurant and listening
Speaker 3: to an account of a football match at another table,
Speaker 3: and more or less all of the restaurant was gripped
Speaker 3: by the discussion of this match that only that table
Speaker 3: had seen. So the same I think was true in
Speaker 3: the Middle even more true in the Middle Ages, that
Speaker 3: it was topic of discussion, and you can imagine how
Speaker 3: the stories got better in the telling.
Speaker 1: So in a real tournament in the fourteenth century, if
Speaker 1: I were a knight or a nobleman competing, what would
Speaker 1: be at stake for me?
Speaker 3: Not your life? Not your life. So it's very rare
Speaker 3: for nights to be killed. Now they sometimes were, sometimes
Speaker 3: as a result because it's a danger sport, and sometimes
Speaker 3: because there is suspicion of murder, they use a lance
Speaker 3: they shouldn't have done. The lances were meant to have
Speaker 3: this sort of non lethal end, but that could sometimes
Speaker 3: be altered, so it was lethal. There are deaths, but
Speaker 3: they would above what was at stake, honor, glory above all.
Speaker 3: It's slightly different from the tournament of the of the
Speaker 3: twelfth and thirteenth century, where you could make your fortune
Speaker 3: by capturing other knights and then selling off their horses,
Speaker 3: their armor, and even ransoming them.
Speaker 1: When you stick capturing other nights, do you mean just
Speaker 1: beating them in.
Speaker 3: A joust, Yeah, unhorsing them. And then as it were,
Speaker 3: so the twelfth century and thirteenth century, tournaments weren't as
Speaker 3: we imagine them as they became in the fourteenth century.
Speaker 3: They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective,
Speaker 3: capture was, and they were fought over large sort of
Speaker 3: football fields, huge battles taking place where they're not killing
Speaker 3: each other, just trying to capture each other, and then
Speaker 3: you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune.
Speaker 3: It alters so in the thirteenth and in the fourteenth
Speaker 3: century it becomes much more display of arms and a
Speaker 3: quest for honor and glory, and it's about it's just
Speaker 3: about us, you know, make an impression on all of
Speaker 3: the glamorous people, the men and the women, as much
Speaker 3: as the men who are who are present, and for
Speaker 3: showing off, you know, your horsemanship, your skill at arms,
Speaker 3: that's what's at stake. And we can't underestimate the importance
Speaker 3: of honor for these men and women.
Speaker 2: Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture, is
Speaker 2: a night extending his lance and getting the favor of
Speaker 2: a woman her maybe tying a rib in to the
Speaker 2: end of the lance.
Speaker 1: Was that something that actually heurd Yes.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. In fact, it's even more Our evidence is even
Speaker 3: richer and more complex. We have high status women decided
Speaker 3: who was the champion after so many days of fighting,
Speaker 3: and as it been, it wasn't just simply about calculating
Speaker 3: points and scoring victories, but a noble woman might often
Speaker 3: be entrusted with deciding who was the bravest, the most
Speaker 3: skillful night, or dispensing with a range of prizes, or
Speaker 3: giving the prize. It might even be a wild animal.
Speaker 3: We know of one tournament where the prize being competed
Speaker 3: for was a bear.
Speaker 1: What would you do with a bear? If you want?
Speaker 1: I is it bear baiting? Is that the answer?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, Henry the Second has a
Speaker 3: bear in the twelfth century, and I think bears would
Speaker 3: do tricks, and I think it was just such a
Speaker 3: large and hungry beast to feed that it was kind
Speaker 3: of you know, it was a demonstration of wealth and power.
Speaker 3: So you come home from the tournament and you bring
Speaker 3: back a bear.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about that.
Speaker 3: No, though, it's a noble woman, according to this evidence,
Speaker 3: who gave the bear away, who was in charge of
Speaker 3: the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor. Though,
Speaker 3: when Henry Earl of Darby in the thirteen nineties, he
Speaker 3: went to join the Teutonic Knights in their one of
Speaker 3: their campaigns, and he goes twice, and on the second
Speaker 3: time he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer
Speaker 3: against the Lithuanians. So he goes on it because he's
Speaker 3: got money. This is the future Henry the fourth. He
Speaker 3: goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem and
Speaker 3: around Europe, and he picks up all these gifts and
Speaker 3: he comes back with a leopard, and so you could,
Speaker 3: you know, the menageries of these aristocrats at these tournaments
Speaker 3: could be quite spectacular.
Speaker 2: I mean that sounds spectacular. Who in general is funding
Speaker 2: these tournaments? Is it always the king local noblemen? Is
Speaker 2: there a system in place.
Speaker 3: It's largely paid for out of the nobleman. The nobleman's
Speaker 3: if they want a tournament, they pay for it. There
Speaker 3: are some tournaments where because there it's quite a high
Speaker 3: profile tournament, kings get involved and they'll fund it. They'll
Speaker 3: pay for the whole thing because it you know, there's
Speaker 3: a very famous tournament in France in thirteen ninety in
Speaker 3: which three great French knights challenge all of Europe to
Speaker 3: battle them, and it takes place over a really significant
Speaker 3: something like thirty days of fighting as a demonstration of endurance.
Speaker 3: It's very impressive. It's paid for by the French king
Speaker 3: because it's bringing great honor and glory to the French kingdom.
Speaker 3: He didn't start with him, but once he hears about it,
Speaker 3: he wants to sort of support it, so he funds it.
Speaker 2: I mean that makes sense at thirty days also seems
Speaker 2: like such a long time where that's like, don't you
Speaker 2: have jobs to do?
Speaker 1: Aren't there any wars to fight?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? The fascinating thing is a recent study of this
Speaker 3: particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from
Speaker 3: where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and
Speaker 3: English delegations trying to thresh out a piece, So it
Speaker 3: looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful
Speaker 3: negotiating to the tournament field, so that at the tournament itself,
Speaker 3: you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night,
Speaker 3: they're also talking about how they can work out a
Speaker 3: lasting piece, which is very interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean that is, that's such an interesting contrast that
Speaker 1: there's this lasting piece and then this faux battle happening
Speaker 1: juxtaposed literally right next door to each other.
Speaker 3: Absolutely and and men, the three Knights are all involved
Speaker 3: in the One hundred Years War. One of them in fact,
Speaker 3: would be captured what twenty five years later at Asencourp,
Speaker 3: So you know, it's really fascinating how these individuals turn
Speaker 3: up in all these different campaigns and tournaments.
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at
Speaker 2: risk in these tournaments, which are not intended to be deadly,
Speaker 2: but of course accidents do happen. I mean, a few
Speaker 2: centuries after the period that we're talking about, the king
Speaker 2: of France, who was Henry the Second, will die in
Speaker 2: a jousting accident. Were there any notable tragedies that come
Speaker 2: to mind for you?
Speaker 3: In particular, in the thirteenth century, there are a number
Speaker 3: of high ranking casualties who are killed in tournaments and
Speaker 3: in both cases murder is suspected.
Speaker 2: Interesting as in people wanted to sort of use the
Speaker 2: cover of the tournament to kill people that they actually
Speaker 2: wanted to kill.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so there is aristocratic feuding and they want to
Speaker 3: settle scores. There are of course jewels to the death,
Speaker 3: a bit like you're catting that microphone, you know. One
Speaker 3: of the most famous jewels is fought at the French
Speaker 3: Court and was the subject of that very good film
Speaker 3: The Last Duel, about a charge of rape, and that
Speaker 3: is to the death. So there are these incidents. I mean,
Speaker 3: Henry Earl of Darby, who I've just mentioned, was compelled
Speaker 3: to fight a duel with Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk,
Speaker 3: over charges of treason in thirteen ninety nine before he
Speaker 3: was exiled by Richard the Second. He didn't. The duel
Speaker 3: was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close
Speaker 3: to being waged and then was stopped by the King.
Speaker 1: The last Duel, which Ridley Scott made the film of
Speaker 1: phenomenal film.
Speaker 3: I thought, I thought it was excellent that also captured
Speaker 3: what a jewel to the death was like. So that
Speaker 3: they do occur, but the jewels are separate from the tournaments.
Speaker 2: One other thing that occurs in the television show Night
Speaker 2: of the Seven Kingdoms is a trial by combat. They
Speaker 2: end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven.
Speaker 2: I hope I'm not spoiling anything. I won't reveal any outcomes,
Speaker 2: but is a trial by combat something that actually occurred
Speaker 2: during this.
Speaker 3: Period, absolutely, and it had been a part of elite
Speaker 3: culture and justice from a very early date, I mean
Speaker 3: from a sort of post Roman date, late antiquity. The
Speaker 3: evidence from among those who settled in the Roman Empire
Speaker 3: from the fifth and sixth century of this kind of
Speaker 3: means of resolving feud, of fighting jewels. So it goes
Speaker 3: from being part, it seems, of pagan Germanic elite culture
Speaker 3: to being something within the Christian fold. That duels are
Speaker 3: fought often as a result of charges of treason in
Speaker 3: the eleventh and twelfth century. So when men are charged
Speaker 3: with treason, they deny it and then they have to
Speaker 3: fight to defend their position. And there we have an
Speaker 3: account from a jewel that is fought in Flanders in
Speaker 3: the summer of eleven twenty seven, and it's horrific. It's
Speaker 3: just like the duel in the in Game of thrones,
Speaker 3: where you know, the chap's eyes are pulled out or
Speaker 3: squashed out, and there's something not quite the same, but
Speaker 3: something similar. We have an account of it takes place
Speaker 3: after the assassination of the counter Flanders in eleven twenty
Speaker 3: seven that sets off a chain of events that leads
Speaker 3: to civil war in Flanders. And there is this jewel
Speaker 3: about charges of complicity in the assassination, and we have
Speaker 3: an eyewitness account of the jewel in which one sort
Speaker 3: of one of the Nights against another more or less
Speaker 3: disembowels the opponent, and then the opponent, as he's dying,
Speaker 3: is then executed because he's lost the jewel, which is
Speaker 3: God's judgment. He's thus been found guilty. So really quite unsettling.
Speaker 1: Good, quite uncomfortable to physically imagine.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2: One slightly lighter question to end on another theme in
Speaker 2: Night of the Seven Kingdoms is sigils and symbols on shields.
Speaker 2: Can you speak a little bit about what the purpose
Speaker 2: and meaning of these heraldic symbols were and if you
Speaker 2: have any personal favorites.
Speaker 3: This is really interesting because the tournament appears to emerge
Speaker 3: out of a tradition of cavalry games that goes back
Speaker 3: to the Roman period, so we know that the Romans
Speaker 3: liked their military, cavalry entertainment, and that then develops in
Speaker 3: the in the early Middle Ages under Charlemagne and his successors,
Speaker 3: and out of that in the later eleventh century, very
Speaker 3: likely in northeast what is now northeast France, Belgium and
Speaker 3: the Netherlands, there emerges a tournament culture. Why that should
Speaker 3: be remains unclear, but associated with that is the development,
Speaker 3: fascinatingly of heraldry. So the history of tournament and heraldry
Speaker 3: are seen to be closely connected. It's fascinating absolutely. So
Speaker 3: you know, there's been lots of warfare in the early
Speaker 3: Middle Ages and there's been no real evidence of heraldry
Speaker 3: of aristocratic houses. That changes in the late eleventh century
Speaker 3: and it's linked to tournaments. And it looks like that
Speaker 3: different families are keen to demonstrate their presence and their power,
Speaker 3: their identity, their membership with these choice of arms and
Speaker 3: this decoration on their shields and on their penants. So
Speaker 3: you look at the baotapestry and there's very limited, very
Speaker 3: very limited heraldic decoration. I think there's a dragon on
Speaker 3: a couple of the shields of the knights. On the botapestry,
Speaker 3: there's a dragon standard, but otherwise there's an absence of heraldry.
Speaker 3: But forty years later, after ten sixty six ten seventy
Speaker 3: the day to the BeO Tapestry, more or less arms
Speaker 3: are being used by elite families, and as the period
Speaker 3: proceeds thirteenth fourteenth centuries, they get quite complex and very
Speaker 3: colorful and very interesting. My favorite is a bit earlier
Speaker 3: from that, in the early twelfth century. There's the seal
Speaker 3: matrix of a English sheriff and Justice, and it's a
Speaker 3: very peculiar because it shows a night fighting a monster,
Speaker 3: a kind of griffin like beast, who is holding a
Speaker 3: kind of small other beast in its mouth. It's not
Speaker 3: quite clear what's going on. It looks like that the
Speaker 3: smaller beast is directing the greater beast against this night.
Speaker 1: It's like a crying situation. It's like a small, small
Speaker 1: guy controlling a big guy.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's exactly that, and it's really fascinating, clearly an
Speaker 3: insight into how this night saw himself as a kind
Speaker 3: of a fighter against the forces of darkness on behalf
Speaker 3: of his king. So it's a really fascinating insight into
Speaker 3: a mentality.
Speaker 2: I love that. If you have access to it, please
Speaker 2: please email it to me. I would love to see that.
Speaker 2: But it is fascinating to imagine that these Knightly heralds
Speaker 2: are performative more than functional. In that sense, if they
Speaker 2: corresponded with the rise of these tournaments, they were outward
Speaker 2: facing symbols, and I think that's such an interesting analysis.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But having said that, I would also want to
Speaker 3: make the point that they then, of course, as you know,
Speaker 3: they are then functional and in the stress of battle,
Speaker 3: you know, seeing these standards and in the close visor
Speaker 3: of these helmets, seeing a standard of your lord or
Speaker 3: of your king is can rally your spirit and can
Speaker 3: also show you where to rush to. There's no accident
Speaker 3: that Henry the Fifth placed himself at agancourp right on
Speaker 3: the front line with his royal war helm so that
Speaker 3: everybody could see where he was to rally the lads,
Speaker 3: in other words, in the heat of battle.
Speaker 2: And of course something to bring it all back together.
Speaker 2: Something I think that Night of the Seven Kingdoms communicated
Speaker 2: very well is it is difficult to see in those visors.
Speaker 2: Absolutely if you lose sight of your lord, I mean
Speaker 2: going back to the Bayo tapestry Battle of Hastings, it
Speaker 2: seems like you're king is down, who knows what to
Speaker 2: do as.
Speaker 3: The confusion and terror of battle. In fact, there are
Speaker 3: two different kinds of helmet. There is the tournament helmet,
Speaker 3: which is a big, showy offye gear, and then there's
Speaker 3: the sort of battle helm where a lot like Israeli
Speaker 3: tank commanders were trained to drive with their heads out
Speaker 3: of the tank hatch to give maximum mobility in the
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties and seventies, Knights in English armies and French
Speaker 3: armies in the fourteenth century preferred helmets without visors so
Speaker 3: that they could see the action. It was much more dangerous.
Speaker 3: Of course, Henry the Fifth gets an arrow as a
Speaker 3: sixteen year old boy in his face at the Battle
Speaker 3: of Shrewsbury because he's got his visor up, because he
Speaker 3: wants to see what's happening and lead his men. It's
Speaker 3: a serious business.
Speaker 2: It's a serious business. I've already taken far too much
Speaker 2: of your time. This is I could talk to you
Speaker 2: for hours, fascinating. One last question just before you go,
Speaker 2: how do you feel something very exciting for medievalists is
Speaker 2: about to happen? In the UK, which is the value
Speaker 2: tapestry coming back.
Speaker 3: I'm very very excited. I'm also deeply nervous.
Speaker 1: That's what people say.
Speaker 3: It's a little controversial, you know, I can see post
Speaker 3: Brexit the b word good thing to be reminded of
Speaker 3: our remarkable and rich shared history with the continent. I'm
Speaker 3: a bit little bit anxious about the transport of this
Speaker 3: remarkable object. I mean, you know, it is very very fragile,
Speaker 3: and it should be preserved. Its survived. After all, it
Speaker 3: has survived Napoleon, it has survived the Vermarked and the SS.
Speaker 3: It has survived a great deal and it needs to
Speaker 3: be preserved so that future generations can enjoy. It's fascinating detail.
Speaker 1: If I'm correct, had Harold with an arrow to.
Speaker 3: The absolutely though it's there is everything about the Bait
Speaker 3: tapestry is an enigma and a challenge. So the problem
Speaker 3: with that is that we think we're not actually sure
Speaker 3: which figure because it says Howld, but it's not quite
Speaker 3: clear which figure is Harold. There is a figure with
Speaker 3: an arrow. And then, just to complicate things work more,
Speaker 3: there is evidence that the arrow is a nineteenth century restoration.
Speaker 3: Oh no, So even something as like as sort of
Speaker 3: accepted and known as the arrow in Harold's eye and
Speaker 3: the bed tapestry, which not even certain if it's if
Speaker 3: it's part of the original decoration. It is that there is.
Speaker 3: Everything about the bar tapestry is an enigma. The more
Speaker 3: you look at it, the more complex and the more
Speaker 3: interesting it becomes.
Speaker 2: I know, I just gave a thousand medieval as a
Speaker 2: heart attack by saying Harold died with an arrow to
Speaker 2: the eye, reinforcing the historical myth.
Speaker 3: I was just at a seminar where the historian was
Speaker 3: talking exactly on this point. Harold may still have died
Speaker 3: by an arrow, and there may be an arrow there
Speaker 3: in the tapestry that may indeed be Harold. There's just
Speaker 3: this problem that there is evidence of slight, heavy handed
Speaker 3: restoration in the nineteenth century. I'm sure those historians Medievus
Speaker 3: are still alive.
Speaker 1: Okay, good doctor Dougherty.
Speaker 2: I cannot thank you enough for your time, for this
Speaker 2: fascinating conversation. I can see why Hollywood keeps calling you.
Speaker 2: It's just a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure, Dona, really thank you.
Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and
Speaker 1: mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me
Speaker 1: Danash Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick,
Speaker 1: Paul Jaffey, Natasha Laski, and me Dana Swartz. The show
Speaker 1: is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Nomes Griffin,
Speaker 1: with supervising producer rima il Kaali and executive producers Aaron Manke,
Speaker 1: Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.