WEBVTT - A Medievalist of the Seven Kingdoms (with Dr. Hugh Doherty) 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.600 Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:07.880 and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.120 Hi, this is Danish Forts and I am so thrilled 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.160 to be here today with a very special interview. I'm 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.040 talking to doctor Hugh Doherty, who's a professor at the 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:26.040 University of East Anglia in the UK. He focuses, I think, 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.720 primarily on medieval topics. Your lecture in medieval subjects, but 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:35.159 very exciting to my personal interests is he served as 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.440 the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series A 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:41.600 Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I just want to 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.400 be very clear, this is not a sponsored episode. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:45.720 No one is paying me to do this. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:51.960 I just genuinely personally love television show so much and 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.080 so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you, 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:55.920 doctor Doherty. 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:57.000 Thank you for joining us. 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.720 It's a pleasure to be here, just. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:00.640 To I've write in. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.000 Can you talk a little bit about your field and 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.320 your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.080 consulting for historical fantasy series. 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.679 I have an expertise in tenth and eleventh and twelfth 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.520 century Europe, and as a result of my own choice, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.400 I wanted to teach I mean fascinated with ancient history, 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.440 so I teach a module on the Roman Empire and 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.480 I also teach a module on the One Hundred Years War. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.119 So I know a little about a lot. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.959 Well, that's sort of the motto for this podcast, where 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.759 I've covered several thousands of years of history. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:40.840 What I love. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.800 About A Night of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.800 Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:52.320 a fantasy world, but there are analogs to real British history. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.960 I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:59.440 Throne series is a take on the Wars of the 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:04.960 Roses in the fifteenth century and the House of the 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.799 Dragon sort of. The prequel series seems inspired by the 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:13.679 anarchy the period with Empress Matilda. When does the Night 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.120 of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm going to say take place again, 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.200 even though it is very much a fantasy series. 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.400 I agree with everything you've said about, by the way, 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.280 about A nine to Seven Kingdoms, I've only seen the 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:26.440 first two episodes. 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.320 At the moment, oh, you gotta get on it. The ending, 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.280 really they really stick the ending. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.919 I know, I just thought they were marvelous, and in fact, 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.120 they were so good they made me go back and 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.919 watch The House of Dragon, which I had not seen, 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.160 and I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:53.680 absolutely spellbound. In answer to your really interesting observation and question, 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.320 by noting that I think George R. Martin is a 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.440 superb historian. He knows his stuff. It's not just he 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:07.040 knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:12.959 operation of power in these societies like few other people do. 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.760 And I think it's in a fantastic job. And often, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.560 as I've said that, the Game of Thrones, House of Dragon, 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.239 and now Night the Seven Kingdoms are often more accurate 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:29.320 in how they represent the texture of society than series 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:33.680 and films that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.440 I think that's an important point to note. I think 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.480 Night of the Seven Kingdoms, when I talked to Ira Parker, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:45.480 the writer and showrunner about the period, he'd asked George R. Martin, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.640 what was the sort of you know that if he 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:53.360 had to spin it to a particular century, which centry 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.640 would it be? And George R. Martin came back with 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.240 the fourteenth and that is the as you know, it 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:05.080 is the age of the Tournament and of the first 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:06.800 two thirds of the one hundred Years War. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.360 So how did you, obviously you know a lot about 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.160 the Hundred Yard's War in this period, how did you 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.840 connect with Ara Parker who created the show alongside George R. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:19.520 Martin and the team at HBO. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.720 It's just luck I've done this before. It all started 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.400 by somebody When I was at Oxford, I was a 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.680 research fellow and someone at someone at the history faculty 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.960 got received a phone call and from a film company 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.159 who needed somebody to advise on something else. This as 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.480 many years ago, and this person who answered the phones 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.080 that are I know someone? So I said yes to that, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.520 and I've been sort of picking up the phone or 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:53.520 answering emails ever since. So it was word of mouth essentially. 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.400 So it was a great joy to be asked as 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.640 a fan of Game of Thrones long before all of this, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.240 it was a great it was an honor to be asked. 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:07.919 And essentially it came down to Ira and myself having 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.320 these interviews with Ira, I think in la and myself 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.080 here in Norwich and Easter in Norfolk in England. Just 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:23.120 discussing tournament culture, nightly politics, warfare, one hundred Years War. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.719 It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail, you know, 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.240 he more detailed the better, and he had lots of 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.120 fascinating questions. It was a real joy to sort of 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.479 be engaged in the creative process at an early stage. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.520 You know, I've been on productions where I've been invited 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.560 in at the very last minute and then to some 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.680 extent everything is fixed. While with this I could suggest 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.279 things that could be then fed into the script and 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:53.839 the writing. 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.560 It's very exciting to me what this show did. And 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.560 like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.640 world obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.320 But what a Night of the Seven Kingdoms does that 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.080 other Game of Thrones series don't do. Is it's very 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.920 focused on a brief period of time rather than spanning years. 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:21.480 We are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.839 a little bit about what tournament culture was like in 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:26.760 the thirteen hundreds in England? 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.960 I will start by saying that there is a sort 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.240 of youth. There was a nightly culture that united all 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:38.000 of Europe. So the same men who on battlefields are 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.280 trying to kill each other, are on the tournament field, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:46.279 interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen, and as 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:52.080 colleagues and as fellow diners and feasts. It's an aspect 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.839 of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe. 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.560 So it's something that they share. So what at the 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.080 same time they're often killing each other in the great 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.520 battlefields and sieges of the One hundred Years War, at 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.960 the same time that in moments of truces or peace 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.600 or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.600 in these tournaments. They were splendid opportunities for the elite 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:23.160 of Europe to gather, to show off their wealth, their accouterments, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.760 their gear, their households. And the comparison I've always made 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:32.120 is that tournaments were much like film festivals in that 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:36.040 it was as much about what was happening after the 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:41.520 film showings, the soires, their dinners, as what's happening in 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.200 the film showings, and so it was as much about 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.160 what's happening off the tournament field as on it. There's 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.280 no doubt that there is. The principal action is the 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:57.920 demonstration of skill at arms on the tournament field for 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.840 all to see, and then this will occupy each day, 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.960 and then in the evenings they'll be feasting and dancing 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:12.920 and poetry and interaction between competitors and between women and 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.520 families and households. And I think that The Night the 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.520 Seven Kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out, 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.600 that that interaction that happens off the torment field. So 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.400 there is great drama on the field, and that drama 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.840 could be you know, they could it could be just 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.920 knights torning against each other, but they might also reenact 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.520 episodes from antiquity, from the classical world, all from the 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:44.760 legendary world. So it develops in Spain. Actually, this this 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.520 notion that knights would hold a bridge and would defy 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.520 any other night to cross the bridge, or that they 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.880 would re enact a battle of King Arthur. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.679 It's like children playing Red Rover King of the Hell. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:03.679 Absolutely, there's a it's as much about re enactment and display. 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.079 It's a celebration of the aristocratic imagination. 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.320 What I always found you brought up King Arthur. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.840 I've always found it personally fascinating that to a modern 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.079 lay person, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagining 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:23.719 him is in the fourteenth century as a knight of chivalry, when, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:25.880 of course King Arthur, who didn't exist, if he did 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.600 exist at all, would have been you know, ninth century maybe. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.880 But I find it very interesting that our popular image 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.920 of this character is in the era where he was popularized. 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:41.200 Absolutely. I know of Medievlis who don't like the kind 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.800 of thing I do, who you know, laugh at or 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:50.000 comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate and 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:51.920 to give it text joh and so on. But I 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.160 think it's what's really interesting is that the kind of 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.640 world that George R. R. Martin has created is one 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:02.800 that any fourteenth, fifth, deenth century audience would have loved. 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.960 I mean, the tales of knightly drama, of heroes rising 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.200 through the ranks. This is that world of Arthur that 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:16.400 they love reading about, hearing about, and re enacting. So 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.480 there is actually a nice continuation between the as you say, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.400 the legendary world of Arthur that they believe in and 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:26.160 they love, and that has shaped Western culture, you know, 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:31.480 the pre Raphaelites, Wagner Excalibur up to Game of Thrones. 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.400 It's part of a in a way, a shared tradition 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.960 that we are still buying into. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.440 They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional night the 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:43.959 same way we're talking about Sir Duncan Natal. 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:49.120 Absolutely absolutely, and in the same way that people who 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.520 watch The Night of Seven Kingdoms on a Sunday evening 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.320 in the States on Monday evening here would go to 0:10:55.400 --> 0:11:01.160 work the following day things exactly with their their imaginations 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.079 captured as they're on the underground or the bus or 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.720 driving to work and they're thinking about tournament culture and 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.400 daring do and honor and all this sort of thing. 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.880 I think the fourteenth century audience thought exactly the same. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.960 When they were on their way to church or you know, 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.520 going to see family, or going to the law courts 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.960 or inspecting their stables, they were also thinking about Arthur 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.360 and the Knights of the Round Table, so they it 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.840 populated their imaginative landscapes. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.959 And to be frank and I don't want to generalize, 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.600 but it does seem like for most people being alive 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.880 in the fourteenth century would have been quite boring and 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:46.720 bleak and challenging and physically arduous. I imagine these tournaments 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.000 were a opportunity for a chance for levity and fun 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.720 and community that might not, you know, we might just 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.640 be church and working in a field. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.319 The rest of the time, they were immensely popular. They 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.920 were great fun. I would say, no age likes to 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:08.160 think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.600 we have evidence there is a lot of drinking, merry making, 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:15.360 dancing in the lives of peasant farmers, I mean that's 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:20.200 not There's also starvation, and there is harsh justice. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:24.280 And there is a fairmine around this era exactly so. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.800 And plague, but you know, plague is no respector of rank, 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.840 was no respector of rank, as COVID was no respector 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.520 of rank. And it's also been pointed out the number 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.920 of Saints Days. Saints Day's are holidays, and there are 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.280 so many Saints Days, it's sometimes difficult to say how 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:43.680 many days these farmers are actually working. 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.439 They got more time off than than most Americans. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.880 Absolutely, But having said all that, there is no doubt 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.800 that tournaments were in immense draw for all different sections 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.880 of society. I think what we also have to remember 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.960 is that it was talked about, so even if people 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:08.320 weren't there, it was talked about and listened to in 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.760 the weeks and months afterwards. And that that was a 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.560 I know. I remember being in a restaurant and listening 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.840 to an account of a football match at another table, 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.840 and more or less all of the restaurant was gripped 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.360 by the discussion of this match that only that table 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.240 had seen. So the same I think was true in 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.640 the Middle even more true in the Middle Ages, that 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.640 it was topic of discussion, and you can imagine how 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.560 the stories got better in the telling. 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:40.080 So in a real tournament in the fourteenth century, if 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.720 I were a knight or a nobleman competing, what would 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:44.680 be at stake for me? 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.640 Not your life? Not your life. So it's very rare 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.680 for nights to be killed. Now they sometimes were, sometimes 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.080 as a result because it's a danger sport, and sometimes 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.560 because there is suspicion of murder, they use a lance 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.800 they shouldn't have done. The lances were meant to have 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.439 this sort of non lethal end, but that could sometimes 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.760 be altered, so it was lethal. There are deaths, but 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.679 they would above what was at stake, honor, glory above all. 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:21.280 It's slightly different from the tournament of the of the 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.560 twelfth and thirteenth century, where you could make your fortune 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.320 by capturing other knights and then selling off their horses, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.560 their armor, and even ransoming them. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.280 When you stick capturing other nights, do you mean just 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:37.360 beating them in. 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:42.040 A joust, Yeah, unhorsing them. And then as it were, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.760 so the twelfth century and thirteenth century, tournaments weren't as 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.200 we imagine them as they became in the fourteenth century. 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.400 They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective, 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.400 capture was, and they were fought over large sort of 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:02.480 football fields, huge battles taking place where they're not killing 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:04.520 each other, just trying to capture each other, and then 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.160 you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune. 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.840 It alters so in the thirteenth and in the fourteenth 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.320 century it becomes much more display of arms and a 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:20.000 quest for honor and glory, and it's about it's just 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.120 about us, you know, make an impression on all of 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.160 the glamorous people, the men and the women, as much 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.840 as the men who are who are present, and for 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:34.080 showing off, you know, your horsemanship, your skill at arms, 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.120 that's what's at stake. And we can't underestimate the importance 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.720 of honor for these men and women. 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.920 Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture, is 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:55.520 a night extending his lance and getting the favor of 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.800 a woman her maybe tying a rib in to the 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:58.680 end of the lance. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.640 Was that something that actually heurd Yes. 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.320 Absolutely. In fact, it's even more Our evidence is even 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.720 richer and more complex. We have high status women decided 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.160 who was the champion after so many days of fighting, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.440 and as it been, it wasn't just simply about calculating 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:20.680 points and scoring victories, but a noble woman might often 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.440 be entrusted with deciding who was the bravest, the most 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:28.360 skillful night, or dispensing with a range of prizes, or 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.320 giving the prize. It might even be a wild animal. 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.280 We know of one tournament where the prize being competed 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:36.160 for was a bear. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.000 What would you do with a bear? If you want? 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.680 I is it bear baiting? Is that the answer? 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.040 I don't know. I mean, Henry the Second has a 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.040 bear in the twelfth century, and I think bears would 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.200 do tricks, and I think it was just such a 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:57.120 large and hungry beast to feed that it was kind 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.720 of you know, it was a demonstration of wealth and power. 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.760 So you come home from the tournament and you bring 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:04.760 back a bear. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.000 I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about that. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:14.640 No, though, it's a noble woman, according to this evidence, 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.080 who gave the bear away, who was in charge of 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.640 the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor. Though, 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.359 when Henry Earl of Darby in the thirteen nineties, he 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.280 went to join the Teutonic Knights in their one of 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.040 their campaigns, and he goes twice, and on the second 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.959 time he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.080 against the Lithuanians. So he goes on it because he's 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.520 got money. This is the future Henry the fourth. He 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.000 goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem and 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.280 around Europe, and he picks up all these gifts and 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.320 he comes back with a leopard, and so you could, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.880 you know, the menageries of these aristocrats at these tournaments 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.480 could be quite spectacular. 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:03.800 I mean that sounds spectacular. Who in general is funding 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.600 these tournaments? Is it always the king local noblemen? Is 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:10.000 there a system in place. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.320 It's largely paid for out of the nobleman. The nobleman's 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:18.280 if they want a tournament, they pay for it. There 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.920 are some tournaments where because there it's quite a high 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:27.639 profile tournament, kings get involved and they'll fund it. They'll 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.840 pay for the whole thing because it you know, there's 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.760 a very famous tournament in France in thirteen ninety in 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.439 which three great French knights challenge all of Europe to 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.200 battle them, and it takes place over a really significant 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:48.080 something like thirty days of fighting as a demonstration of endurance. 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.080 It's very impressive. It's paid for by the French king 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.680 because it's bringing great honor and glory to the French kingdom. 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.120 He didn't start with him, but once he hears about it, 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.920 he wants to sort of support it, so he funds it. 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.800 I mean that makes sense at thirty days also seems 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.080 like such a long time where that's like, don't you 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:11.040 have jobs to do? 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:12.520 Aren't there any wars to fight? 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.200 Absolutely? The fascinating thing is a recent study of this 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.720 particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.199 where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.119 English delegations trying to thresh out a piece, So it 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.960 looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:37.320 negotiating to the tournament field, so that at the tournament itself, 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.120 you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.439 they're also talking about how they can work out a 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.520 lasting piece, which is very interesting. 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.199 I mean that is, that's such an interesting contrast that 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:54.800 there's this lasting piece and then this faux battle happening 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.320 juxtaposed literally right next door to each other. 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.600 Absolutely and and men, the three Knights are all involved 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.040 in the One hundred Years War. One of them in fact, 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.320 would be captured what twenty five years later at Asencourp, 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.960 So you know, it's really fascinating how these individuals turn 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.400 up in all these different campaigns and tournaments. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.760 You mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.639 risk in these tournaments, which are not intended to be deadly, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.480 but of course accidents do happen. I mean, a few 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.560 centuries after the period that we're talking about, the king 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.040 of France, who was Henry the Second, will die in 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:41.000 a jousting accident. Were there any notable tragedies that come 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:41.600 to mind for you? 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.119 In particular, in the thirteenth century, there are a number 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:50.520 of high ranking casualties who are killed in tournaments and 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:53.919 in both cases murder is suspected. 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.920 Interesting as in people wanted to sort of use the 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.840 cover of the tournament to kill people that they actually 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:02.600 wanted to kill. 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.800 Absolutely, so there is aristocratic feuding and they want to 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:11.600 settle scores. There are of course jewels to the death, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.040 a bit like you're catting that microphone, you know. One 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.840 of the most famous jewels is fought at the French 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.119 Court and was the subject of that very good film 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:27.359 The Last Duel, about a charge of rape, and that 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.800 is to the death. So there are these incidents. I mean, 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:36.200 Henry Earl of Darby, who I've just mentioned, was compelled 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:41.080 to fight a duel with Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:46.800 over charges of treason in thirteen ninety nine before he 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.600 was exiled by Richard the Second. He didn't. The duel 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.119 was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.160 to being waged and then was stopped by the King. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.480 The last Duel, which Ridley Scott made the film of 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:01.560 phenomenal film. 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.280 I thought, I thought it was excellent that also captured 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.199 what a jewel to the death was like. So that 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.320 they do occur, but the jewels are separate from the tournaments. 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.960 One other thing that occurs in the television show Night 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:22.160 of the Seven Kingdoms is a trial by combat. They 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.159 end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven. 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.720 I hope I'm not spoiling anything. I won't reveal any outcomes, 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.919 but is a trial by combat something that actually occurred 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:32.440 during this. 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:37.840 Period, absolutely, and it had been a part of elite 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:42.600 culture and justice from a very early date, I mean 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.960 from a sort of post Roman date, late antiquity. The 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:51.320 evidence from among those who settled in the Roman Empire 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:53.679 from the fifth and sixth century of this kind of 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:59.960 means of resolving feud, of fighting jewels. So it goes 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:05.640 from being part, it seems, of pagan Germanic elite culture 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.840 to being something within the Christian fold. That duels are 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:14.600 fought often as a result of charges of treason in 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:18.560 the eleventh and twelfth century. So when men are charged 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:22.399 with treason, they deny it and then they have to 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.919 fight to defend their position. And there we have an 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:30.119 account from a jewel that is fought in Flanders in 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:34.240 the summer of eleven twenty seven, and it's horrific. It's 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:38.520 just like the duel in the in Game of thrones, 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.520 where you know, the chap's eyes are pulled out or 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:45.439 squashed out, and there's something not quite the same, but 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:48.879 something similar. We have an account of it takes place 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:53.320 after the assassination of the counter Flanders in eleven twenty 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:57.080 seven that sets off a chain of events that leads 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:01.399 to civil war in Flanders. And there is this jewel 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:06.240 about charges of complicity in the assassination, and we have 0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.440 an eyewitness account of the jewel in which one sort 0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:13.160 of one of the Nights against another more or less 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:17.840 disembowels the opponent, and then the opponent, as he's dying, 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.560 is then executed because he's lost the jewel, which is 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:27.840 God's judgment. He's thus been found guilty. So really quite unsettling. 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:31.480 Good, quite uncomfortable to physically imagine. 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:33.520 Yes, absolutely. 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:38.239 One slightly lighter question to end on another theme in 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:43.240 Night of the Seven Kingdoms is sigils and symbols on shields. 0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:45.920 Can you speak a little bit about what the purpose 0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:50.199 and meaning of these heraldic symbols were and if you 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:51.800 have any personal favorites. 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:57.520