1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: Hi, this is Danish Forts and I am so thrilled 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: to be here today with a very special interview. I'm 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: talking to doctor Hugh Doherty, who's a professor at the 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: University of East Anglia in the UK. He focuses, I think, 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: primarily on medieval topics. Your lecture in medieval subjects, but 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: very exciting to my personal interests is he served as 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series A 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I just want to 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: be very clear, this is not a sponsored episode. 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: No one is paying me to do this. 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: I just genuinely personally love television show so much and 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you, 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: doctor Doherty. 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here, just. 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: To I've write in. 19 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about your field and 20 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 2: your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: consulting for historical fantasy series. 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 3: I have an expertise in tenth and eleventh and twelfth 23 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: century Europe, and as a result of my own choice, 24 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 3: I wanted to teach I mean fascinated with ancient history, 25 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: so I teach a module on the Roman Empire and 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 3: I also teach a module on the One Hundred Years War. 27 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 3: So I know a little about a lot. 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 2: Well, that's sort of the motto for this podcast, where 29 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 2: I've covered several thousands of years of history. 30 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: What I love. 31 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: About A Night of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of 32 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in 33 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: a fantasy world, but there are analogs to real British history. 34 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of 35 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: Throne series is a take on the Wars of the 36 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: Roses in the fifteenth century and the House of the 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 2: Dragon sort of. The prequel series seems inspired by the 38 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 2: anarchy the period with Empress Matilda. When does the Night 39 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm going to say take place again, 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: even though it is very much a fantasy series. 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: I agree with everything you've said about, by the way, 42 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: about A nine to Seven Kingdoms, I've only seen the 43 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: first two episodes. 44 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: At the moment, oh, you gotta get on it. The ending, 45 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: really they really stick the ending. 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 3: I know, I just thought they were marvelous, and in fact, 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: they were so good they made me go back and 48 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: watch The House of Dragon, which I had not seen, 49 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: and I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but 50 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: absolutely spellbound. In answer to your really interesting observation and question, 51 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: by noting that I think George R. Martin is a 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: superb historian. He knows his stuff. It's not just he 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the 54 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 3: operation of power in these societies like few other people do. 55 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: And I think it's in a fantastic job. And often, 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 3: as I've said that, the Game of Thrones, House of Dragon, 57 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 3: and now Night the Seven Kingdoms are often more accurate 58 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: in how they represent the texture of society than series 59 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: and films that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So 60 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: I think that's an important point to note. I think 61 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: Night of the Seven Kingdoms, when I talked to Ira Parker, 62 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: the writer and showrunner about the period, he'd asked George R. Martin, 63 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: what was the sort of you know that if he 64 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: had to spin it to a particular century, which centry 65 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: would it be? And George R. Martin came back with 66 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 3: the fourteenth and that is the as you know, it 67 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 3: is the age of the Tournament and of the first 68 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: two thirds of the one hundred Years War. 69 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: So how did you, obviously you know a lot about 70 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: the Hundred Yard's War in this period, how did you 71 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: connect with Ara Parker who created the show alongside George R. 72 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: Martin and the team at HBO. 73 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 3: It's just luck I've done this before. It all started 74 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: by somebody When I was at Oxford, I was a 75 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: research fellow and someone at someone at the history faculty 76 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 3: got received a phone call and from a film company 77 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 3: who needed somebody to advise on something else. This as 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 3: many years ago, and this person who answered the phones 79 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: that are I know someone? So I said yes to that, 80 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: and I've been sort of picking up the phone or 81 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: answering emails ever since. So it was word of mouth essentially. 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: So it was a great joy to be asked as 83 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: a fan of Game of Thrones long before all of this, 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 3: it was a great it was an honor to be asked. 85 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: And essentially it came down to Ira and myself having 86 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 3: these interviews with Ira, I think in la and myself 87 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: here in Norwich and Easter in Norfolk in England. Just 88 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: discussing tournament culture, nightly politics, warfare, one hundred Years War. 89 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 3: It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail, you know, 90 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 3: he more detailed the better, and he had lots of 91 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: fascinating questions. It was a real joy to sort of 92 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 3: be engaged in the creative process at an early stage. 93 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 3: You know, I've been on productions where I've been invited 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: in at the very last minute and then to some 95 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: extent everything is fixed. While with this I could suggest 96 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 3: things that could be then fed into the script and 97 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 3: the writing. 98 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: It's very exciting to me what this show did. And 99 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval 100 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: world obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. 101 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: But what a Night of the Seven Kingdoms does that 102 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: other Game of Thrones series don't do. Is it's very 103 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: focused on a brief period of time rather than spanning years. 104 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: We are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us 105 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: a little bit about what tournament culture was like in 106 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: the thirteen hundreds in England? 107 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: I will start by saying that there is a sort 108 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 3: of youth. There was a nightly culture that united all 109 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: of Europe. So the same men who on battlefields are 110 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 3: trying to kill each other, are on the tournament field, 111 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 3: interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen, and as 112 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: colleagues and as fellow diners and feasts. It's an aspect 113 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe. 114 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: So it's something that they share. So what at the 115 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: same time they're often killing each other in the great 116 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 3: battlefields and sieges of the One hundred Years War, at 117 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: the same time that in moments of truces or peace 118 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating 119 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: in these tournaments. They were splendid opportunities for the elite 120 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: of Europe to gather, to show off their wealth, their accouterments, 121 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 3: their gear, their households. And the comparison I've always made 122 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: is that tournaments were much like film festivals in that 123 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 3: it was as much about what was happening after the 124 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 3: film showings, the soires, their dinners, as what's happening in 125 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: the film showings, and so it was as much about 126 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: what's happening off the tournament field as on it. There's 127 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: no doubt that there is. The principal action is the 128 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: demonstration of skill at arms on the tournament field for 129 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: all to see, and then this will occupy each day, 130 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: and then in the evenings they'll be feasting and dancing 131 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 3: and poetry and interaction between competitors and between women and 132 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 3: families and households. And I think that The Night the 133 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 3: Seven Kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out, 134 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 3: that that interaction that happens off the torment field. So 135 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: there is great drama on the field, and that drama 136 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: could be you know, they could it could be just 137 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 3: knights torning against each other, but they might also reenact 138 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: episodes from antiquity, from the classical world, all from the 139 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 3: legendary world. So it develops in Spain. Actually, this this 140 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 3: notion that knights would hold a bridge and would defy 141 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: any other night to cross the bridge, or that they 142 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: would re enact a battle of King Arthur. 143 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: It's like children playing Red Rover King of the Hell. 144 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 3: Absolutely, there's a it's as much about re enactment and display. 145 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 3: It's a celebration of the aristocratic imagination. 146 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: What I always found you brought up King Arthur. 147 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: I've always found it personally fascinating that to a modern 148 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: lay person, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagining 149 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 2: him is in the fourteenth century as a knight of chivalry, when, 150 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: of course King Arthur, who didn't exist, if he did 151 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: exist at all, would have been you know, ninth century maybe. 152 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: But I find it very interesting that our popular image 153 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: of this character is in the era where he was popularized. 154 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I know of Medievlis who don't like the kind 155 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: of thing I do, who you know, laugh at or 156 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate and 157 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: to give it text joh and so on. But I 158 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: think it's what's really interesting is that the kind of 159 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: world that George R. R. Martin has created is one 160 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 3: that any fourteenth, fifth, deenth century audience would have loved. 161 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 3: I mean, the tales of knightly drama, of heroes rising 162 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 3: through the ranks. This is that world of Arthur that 163 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: they love reading about, hearing about, and re enacting. So 164 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 3: there is actually a nice continuation between the as you say, 165 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: the legendary world of Arthur that they believe in and 166 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: they love, and that has shaped Western culture, you know, 167 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: the pre Raphaelites, Wagner Excalibur up to Game of Thrones. 168 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: It's part of a in a way, a shared tradition 169 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 3: that we are still buying into. 170 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 2: They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional night the 171 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: same way we're talking about Sir Duncan Natal. 172 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, and in the same way that people who 173 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 3: watch The Night of Seven Kingdoms on a Sunday evening 174 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: in the States on Monday evening here would go to 175 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 3: work the following day things exactly with their their imaginations 176 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 3: captured as they're on the underground or the bus or 177 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: driving to work and they're thinking about tournament culture and 178 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 3: daring do and honor and all this sort of thing. 179 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: I think the fourteenth century audience thought exactly the same. 180 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 3: When they were on their way to church or you know, 181 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 3: going to see family, or going to the law courts 182 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 3: or inspecting their stables, they were also thinking about Arthur 183 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: and the Knights of the Round Table, so they it 184 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 3: populated their imaginative landscapes. 185 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 2: And to be frank and I don't want to generalize, 186 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: but it does seem like for most people being alive 187 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: in the fourteenth century would have been quite boring and 188 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: bleak and challenging and physically arduous. I imagine these tournaments 189 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: were a opportunity for a chance for levity and fun 190 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: and community that might not, you know, we might just 191 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: be church and working in a field. 192 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 3: The rest of the time, they were immensely popular. They 193 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: were great fun. I would say, no age likes to 194 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when 195 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 3: we have evidence there is a lot of drinking, merry making, 196 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: dancing in the lives of peasant farmers, I mean that's 197 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: not There's also starvation, and there is harsh justice. 198 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: And there is a fairmine around this era exactly so. 199 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: And plague, but you know, plague is no respector of rank, 200 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 3: was no respector of rank, as COVID was no respector 201 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: of rank. And it's also been pointed out the number 202 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: of Saints Days. Saints Day's are holidays, and there are 203 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 3: so many Saints Days, it's sometimes difficult to say how 204 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: many days these farmers are actually working. 205 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 2: They got more time off than than most Americans. 206 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 3: Absolutely, But having said all that, there is no doubt 207 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 3: that tournaments were in immense draw for all different sections 208 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: of society. I think what we also have to remember 209 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 3: is that it was talked about, so even if people 210 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: weren't there, it was talked about and listened to in 211 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: the weeks and months afterwards. And that that was a 212 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 3: I know. I remember being in a restaurant and listening 213 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: to an account of a football match at another table, 214 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: and more or less all of the restaurant was gripped 215 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: by the discussion of this match that only that table 216 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 3: had seen. So the same I think was true in 217 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: the Middle even more true in the Middle Ages, that 218 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: it was topic of discussion, and you can imagine how 219 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 3: the stories got better in the telling. 220 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: So in a real tournament in the fourteenth century, if 221 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: I were a knight or a nobleman competing, what would 222 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: be at stake for me? 223 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 3: Not your life? Not your life. So it's very rare 224 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 3: for nights to be killed. Now they sometimes were, sometimes 225 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: as a result because it's a danger sport, and sometimes 226 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 3: because there is suspicion of murder, they use a lance 227 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: they shouldn't have done. The lances were meant to have 228 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 3: this sort of non lethal end, but that could sometimes 229 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: be altered, so it was lethal. There are deaths, but 230 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 3: they would above what was at stake, honor, glory above all. 231 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: It's slightly different from the tournament of the of the 232 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 3: twelfth and thirteenth century, where you could make your fortune 233 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: by capturing other knights and then selling off their horses, 234 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: their armor, and even ransoming them. 235 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: When you stick capturing other nights, do you mean just 236 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: beating them in. 237 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: A joust, Yeah, unhorsing them. And then as it were, 238 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 3: so the twelfth century and thirteenth century, tournaments weren't as 239 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 3: we imagine them as they became in the fourteenth century. 240 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 3: They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective, 241 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 3: capture was, and they were fought over large sort of 242 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: football fields, huge battles taking place where they're not killing 243 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: each other, just trying to capture each other, and then 244 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune. 245 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 3: It alters so in the thirteenth and in the fourteenth 246 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 3: century it becomes much more display of arms and a 247 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 3: quest for honor and glory, and it's about it's just 248 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 3: about us, you know, make an impression on all of 249 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: the glamorous people, the men and the women, as much 250 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: as the men who are who are present, and for 251 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: showing off, you know, your horsemanship, your skill at arms, 252 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 3: that's what's at stake. And we can't underestimate the importance 253 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: of honor for these men and women. 254 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture, is 255 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: a night extending his lance and getting the favor of 256 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: a woman her maybe tying a rib in to the 257 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: end of the lance. 258 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: Was that something that actually heurd Yes. 259 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely. In fact, it's even more Our evidence is even 260 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 3: richer and more complex. We have high status women decided 261 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 3: who was the champion after so many days of fighting, 262 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 3: and as it been, it wasn't just simply about calculating 263 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: points and scoring victories, but a noble woman might often 264 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: be entrusted with deciding who was the bravest, the most 265 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: skillful night, or dispensing with a range of prizes, or 266 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 3: giving the prize. It might even be a wild animal. 267 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: We know of one tournament where the prize being competed 268 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 3: for was a bear. 269 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: What would you do with a bear? If you want? 270 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: I is it bear baiting? Is that the answer? 271 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, Henry the Second has a 272 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 3: bear in the twelfth century, and I think bears would 273 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: do tricks, and I think it was just such a 274 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 3: large and hungry beast to feed that it was kind 275 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: of you know, it was a demonstration of wealth and power. 276 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 3: So you come home from the tournament and you bring 277 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: back a bear. 278 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about that. 279 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 3: No, though, it's a noble woman, according to this evidence, 280 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 3: who gave the bear away, who was in charge of 281 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 3: the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor. Though, 282 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 3: when Henry Earl of Darby in the thirteen nineties, he 283 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: went to join the Teutonic Knights in their one of 284 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 3: their campaigns, and he goes twice, and on the second 285 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 3: time he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer 286 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: against the Lithuanians. So he goes on it because he's 287 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: got money. This is the future Henry the fourth. He 288 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 3: goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem and 289 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: around Europe, and he picks up all these gifts and 290 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 3: he comes back with a leopard, and so you could, 291 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 3: you know, the menageries of these aristocrats at these tournaments 292 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: could be quite spectacular. 293 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: I mean that sounds spectacular. Who in general is funding 294 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: these tournaments? Is it always the king local noblemen? Is 295 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: there a system in place. 296 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: It's largely paid for out of the nobleman. The nobleman's 297 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: if they want a tournament, they pay for it. There 298 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 3: are some tournaments where because there it's quite a high 299 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 3: profile tournament, kings get involved and they'll fund it. They'll 300 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 3: pay for the whole thing because it you know, there's 301 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 3: a very famous tournament in France in thirteen ninety in 302 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 3: which three great French knights challenge all of Europe to 303 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: battle them, and it takes place over a really significant 304 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: something like thirty days of fighting as a demonstration of endurance. 305 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 3: It's very impressive. It's paid for by the French king 306 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 3: because it's bringing great honor and glory to the French kingdom. 307 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 3: He didn't start with him, but once he hears about it, 308 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 3: he wants to sort of support it, so he funds it. 309 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: I mean that makes sense at thirty days also seems 310 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: like such a long time where that's like, don't you 311 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: have jobs to do? 312 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: Aren't there any wars to fight? 313 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely? The fascinating thing is a recent study of this 314 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from 315 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 3: where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and 316 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 3: English delegations trying to thresh out a piece, So it 317 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful 318 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: negotiating to the tournament field, so that at the tournament itself, 319 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 3: you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night, 320 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: they're also talking about how they can work out a 321 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: lasting piece, which is very interesting. 322 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: I mean that is, that's such an interesting contrast that 323 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: there's this lasting piece and then this faux battle happening 324 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: juxtaposed literally right next door to each other. 325 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely and and men, the three Knights are all involved 326 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: in the One hundred Years War. One of them in fact, 327 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: would be captured what twenty five years later at Asencourp, 328 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: So you know, it's really fascinating how these individuals turn 329 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 3: up in all these different campaigns and tournaments. 330 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at 331 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 2: risk in these tournaments, which are not intended to be deadly, 332 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: but of course accidents do happen. I mean, a few 333 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: centuries after the period that we're talking about, the king 334 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: of France, who was Henry the Second, will die in 335 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: a jousting accident. Were there any notable tragedies that come 336 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: to mind for you? 337 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 3: In particular, in the thirteenth century, there are a number 338 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 3: of high ranking casualties who are killed in tournaments and 339 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 3: in both cases murder is suspected. 340 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: Interesting as in people wanted to sort of use the 341 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: cover of the tournament to kill people that they actually 342 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: wanted to kill. 343 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: Absolutely, so there is aristocratic feuding and they want to 344 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 3: settle scores. There are of course jewels to the death, 345 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 3: a bit like you're catting that microphone, you know. One 346 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 3: of the most famous jewels is fought at the French 347 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 3: Court and was the subject of that very good film 348 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: The Last Duel, about a charge of rape, and that 349 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: is to the death. So there are these incidents. I mean, 350 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 3: Henry Earl of Darby, who I've just mentioned, was compelled 351 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: to fight a duel with Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, 352 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 3: over charges of treason in thirteen ninety nine before he 353 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: was exiled by Richard the Second. He didn't. The duel 354 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 3: was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close 355 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 3: to being waged and then was stopped by the King. 356 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: The last Duel, which Ridley Scott made the film of 357 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: phenomenal film. 358 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 3: I thought, I thought it was excellent that also captured 359 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 3: what a jewel to the death was like. So that 360 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 3: they do occur, but the jewels are separate from the tournaments. 361 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: One other thing that occurs in the television show Night 362 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: of the Seven Kingdoms is a trial by combat. They 363 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven. 364 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: I hope I'm not spoiling anything. I won't reveal any outcomes, 365 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 2: but is a trial by combat something that actually occurred 366 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 2: during this. 367 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: Period, absolutely, and it had been a part of elite 368 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 3: culture and justice from a very early date, I mean 369 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: from a sort of post Roman date, late antiquity. The 370 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: evidence from among those who settled in the Roman Empire 371 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 3: from the fifth and sixth century of this kind of 372 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: means of resolving feud, of fighting jewels. So it goes 373 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 3: from being part, it seems, of pagan Germanic elite culture 374 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 3: to being something within the Christian fold. That duels are 375 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: fought often as a result of charges of treason in 376 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: the eleventh and twelfth century. So when men are charged 377 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 3: with treason, they deny it and then they have to 378 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 3: fight to defend their position. And there we have an 379 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: account from a jewel that is fought in Flanders in 380 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: the summer of eleven twenty seven, and it's horrific. It's 381 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: just like the duel in the in Game of thrones, 382 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: where you know, the chap's eyes are pulled out or 383 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 3: squashed out, and there's something not quite the same, but 384 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 3: something similar. We have an account of it takes place 385 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 3: after the assassination of the counter Flanders in eleven twenty 386 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 3: seven that sets off a chain of events that leads 387 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 3: to civil war in Flanders. And there is this jewel 388 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: about charges of complicity in the assassination, and we have 389 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 3: an eyewitness account of the jewel in which one sort 390 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 3: of one of the Nights against another more or less 391 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: disembowels the opponent, and then the opponent, as he's dying, 392 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: is then executed because he's lost the jewel, which is 393 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: God's judgment. He's thus been found guilty. So really quite unsettling. 394 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: Good, quite uncomfortable to physically imagine. 395 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. 396 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,239 Speaker 2: One slightly lighter question to end on another theme in 397 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: Night of the Seven Kingdoms is sigils and symbols on shields. 398 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 2: Can you speak a little bit about what the purpose 399 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 2: and meaning of these heraldic symbols were and if you 400 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 2: have any personal favorites. 401 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 3: This is really interesting because the tournament appears to emerge 402 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 3: out of a tradition of cavalry games that goes back 403 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 3: to the Roman period, so we know that the Romans 404 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 3: liked their military, cavalry entertainment, and that then develops in 405 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 3: the in the early Middle Ages under Charlemagne and his successors, 406 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 3: and out of that in the later eleventh century, very 407 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 3: likely in northeast what is now northeast France, Belgium and 408 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 3: the Netherlands, there emerges a tournament culture. Why that should 409 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 3: be remains unclear, but associated with that is the development, 410 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 3: fascinatingly of heraldry. So the history of tournament and heraldry 411 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 3: are seen to be closely connected. It's fascinating absolutely. So 412 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 3: you know, there's been lots of warfare in the early 413 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 3: Middle Ages and there's been no real evidence of heraldry 414 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 3: of aristocratic houses. That changes in the late eleventh century 415 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 3: and it's linked to tournaments. And it looks like that 416 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: different families are keen to demonstrate their presence and their power, 417 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 3: their identity, their membership with these choice of arms and 418 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: this decoration on their shields and on their penants. So 419 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: you look at the baotapestry and there's very limited, very 420 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 3: very limited heraldic decoration. I think there's a dragon on 421 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 3: a couple of the shields of the knights. On the botapestry, 422 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: there's a dragon standard, but otherwise there's an absence of heraldry. 423 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: But forty years later, after ten sixty six ten seventy 424 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: the day to the BeO Tapestry, more or less arms 425 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 3: are being used by elite families, and as the period 426 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 3: proceeds thirteenth fourteenth centuries, they get quite complex and very 427 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: colorful and very interesting. My favorite is a bit earlier 428 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 3: from that, in the early twelfth century. There's the seal 429 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: matrix of a English sheriff and Justice, and it's a 430 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 3: very peculiar because it shows a night fighting a monster, 431 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 3: a kind of griffin like beast, who is holding a 432 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: kind of small other beast in its mouth. It's not 433 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 3: quite clear what's going on. It looks like that the 434 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 3: smaller beast is directing the greater beast against this night. 435 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: It's like a crying situation. It's like a small, small 436 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: guy controlling a big guy. 437 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's exactly that, and it's really fascinating, clearly an 438 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 3: insight into how this night saw himself as a kind 439 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 3: of a fighter against the forces of darkness on behalf 440 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 3: of his king. So it's a really fascinating insight into 441 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: a mentality. 442 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 2: I love that. If you have access to it, please 443 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: please email it to me. I would love to see that. 444 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: But it is fascinating to imagine that these Knightly heralds 445 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: are performative more than functional. In that sense, if they 446 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: corresponded with the rise of these tournaments, they were outward 447 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 2: facing symbols, and I think that's such an interesting analysis. 448 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely, But having said that, I would also want to 449 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 3: make the point that they then, of course, as you know, 450 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 3: they are then functional and in the stress of battle, 451 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: you know, seeing these standards and in the close visor 452 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 3: of these helmets, seeing a standard of your lord or 453 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 3: of your king is can rally your spirit and can 454 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 3: also show you where to rush to. There's no accident 455 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 3: that Henry the Fifth placed himself at agancourp right on 456 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 3: the front line with his royal war helm so that 457 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 3: everybody could see where he was to rally the lads, 458 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 3: in other words, in the heat of battle. 459 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: And of course something to bring it all back together. 460 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: Something I think that Night of the Seven Kingdoms communicated 461 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: very well is it is difficult to see in those visors. 462 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely if you lose sight of your lord, I mean 463 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: going back to the Bayo tapestry Battle of Hastings, it 464 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: seems like you're king is down, who knows what to 465 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: do as. 466 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: The confusion and terror of battle. In fact, there are 467 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 3: two different kinds of helmet. There is the tournament helmet, 468 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: which is a big, showy offye gear, and then there's 469 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: the sort of battle helm where a lot like Israeli 470 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 3: tank commanders were trained to drive with their heads out 471 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 3: of the tank hatch to give maximum mobility in the 472 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: nineteen sixties and seventies, Knights in English armies and French 473 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 3: armies in the fourteenth century preferred helmets without visors so 474 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 3: that they could see the action. It was much more dangerous. 475 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 3: Of course, Henry the Fifth gets an arrow as a 476 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 3: sixteen year old boy in his face at the Battle 477 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 3: of Shrewsbury because he's got his visor up, because he 478 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 3: wants to see what's happening and lead his men. It's 479 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 3: a serious business. 480 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: It's a serious business. I've already taken far too much 481 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: of your time. This is I could talk to you 482 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: for hours, fascinating. One last question just before you go, 483 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: how do you feel something very exciting for medievalists is 484 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: about to happen? In the UK, which is the value 485 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 2: tapestry coming back. 486 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 3: I'm very very excited. I'm also deeply nervous. 487 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: That's what people say. 488 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: It's a little controversial, you know, I can see post 489 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 3: Brexit the b word good thing to be reminded of 490 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: our remarkable and rich shared history with the continent. I'm 491 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 3: a bit little bit anxious about the transport of this 492 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 3: remarkable object. I mean, you know, it is very very fragile, 493 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: and it should be preserved. Its survived. After all, it 494 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: has survived Napoleon, it has survived the Vermarked and the SS. 495 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 3: It has survived a great deal and it needs to 496 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 3: be preserved so that future generations can enjoy. It's fascinating detail. 497 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: If I'm correct, had Harold with an arrow to. 498 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 3: The absolutely though it's there is everything about the Bait 499 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: tapestry is an enigma and a challenge. So the problem 500 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: with that is that we think we're not actually sure 501 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: which figure because it says Howld, but it's not quite 502 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 3: clear which figure is Harold. There is a figure with 503 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 3: an arrow. And then, just to complicate things work more, 504 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 3: there is evidence that the arrow is a nineteenth century restoration. 505 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 3: Oh no, So even something as like as sort of 506 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 3: accepted and known as the arrow in Harold's eye and 507 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 3: the bed tapestry, which not even certain if it's if 508 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 3: it's part of the original decoration. It is that there is. 509 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 3: Everything about the bar tapestry is an enigma. The more 510 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 3: you look at it, the more complex and the more 511 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 3: interesting it becomes. 512 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: I know, I just gave a thousand medieval as a 513 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: heart attack by saying Harold died with an arrow to 514 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: the eye, reinforcing the historical myth. 515 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 3: I was just at a seminar where the historian was 516 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 3: talking exactly on this point. Harold may still have died 517 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 3: by an arrow, and there may be an arrow there 518 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: in the tapestry that may indeed be Harold. There's just 519 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: this problem that there is evidence of slight, heavy handed 520 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: restoration in the nineteenth century. I'm sure those historians Medievus 521 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 3: are still alive. 522 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: Okay, good doctor Dougherty. 523 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: I cannot thank you enough for your time, for this 524 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: fascinating conversation. I can see why Hollywood keeps calling you. 525 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: It's just a pleasure to talk to you. 526 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure, Dona, really thank you. 527 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 528 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me 529 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: Danash Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, 530 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: Paul Jaffey, Natasha Laski, and me Dana Swartz. The show 531 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Nomes Griffin, 532 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: with supervising producer rima il Kaali and executive producers Aaron Manke, 533 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 534 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 535 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.