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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a Breaking Points Premium

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out new

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Speaker 1: evidence of the complete insanity of some of the YouTube

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Speaker 1: censorship policies. This one even piss liberals off. So should

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Speaker 1: this was like a full political spectrum situation. Here a

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Speaker 1: go ahead and put this up on the screen. YouTube

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Speaker 1: deleted a January sixth Committee video because it included Trump's

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Speaker 1: false election claims. And by the way, this wasn't one

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Speaker 1: of those where like once they were called out, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: are bad, sorry, we'll put it. No, no no, no, they

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Speaker 1: actually stuck by it, So they say the House committee

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Speaker 1: investigating the January sixth attack on the Capitol has fallen

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Speaker 1: a foul of YouTube's misinformation rules because it's clip from

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Speaker 1: the hearings included footage of Donald Trump speaking on Fox Business.

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Speaker 1: The video site deleted the file uploaded by the panel

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Speaker 1: on Tuesday that showed testimony from former Attorney General William

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Speaker 1: Barr because it also included the former presidence election lies.

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Speaker 1: So when they reached out to YouTube, the statement from

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Speaker 1: YouTube spokesperson said, quote, our election integrity policy prohibits content

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Speaker 1: advancing false claims that widespread fraud errors religious changed the

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Speaker 1: outcome in the twenty twenty election. If it does not

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Speaker 1: provide sufficient context, we enforce our policies equally for everyone

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Speaker 1: and have removed the video uploaded by the January sixth

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Speaker 1: committee channel. So I hope everyone everyone can see how

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Speaker 1: dangerous and insane some of these policies ultimately are. That

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Speaker 1: in the committee literally investigating exposing how ridiculous these lives were,

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Speaker 1: that they include in there Donald Trump saying his piece

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Speaker 1: on whatever that in and of itself is enough to

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Speaker 1: take down this space. It's the same thing that happened

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Speaker 1: to overrun rising or the same thing happened to that.

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Speaker 1: I have made this point to them ad nauseum. We

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Speaker 1: are in the news business. People who are in the

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Speaker 1: news say crazy and stupid shit. Sometimes you cover that.

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Speaker 1: You say, do you want me to be the describer

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Speaker 1: of events or is it easier if I just show

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Speaker 1: it to you and then we talk about it? Right?

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Speaker 1: What's easier, what's better for you as both the product?

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Speaker 1: And also I've made this point to them as well,

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Speaker 1: which is you're actually making it so that cable news,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't rely on YouTube and doesn't have the same

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Speaker 1: censorship regime, can give their viewers a superior experience on

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Speaker 1: their platform versus us on the YouTube platform. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense. Everybody who thinks the election was stolen?

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Speaker 1: Is anybody even who might be swayed by that it's happened? Folks?

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Speaker 1: A video on YouTube of Trump saying it is not

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Speaker 1: going to do anything. If anything, the best way to

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Speaker 1: debunk something, to talk about something, is to show it

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Speaker 1: to you firsthand and be like, this is exactly what

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Speaker 1: Trump says. Here's what's wrong, X, Y and Z. You're

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Speaker 1: not changing anybody's minds. You're instituting an arbitrary and idiotic

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Speaker 1: censorship regime which will only come back to hurt not

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Speaker 1: just independent creators, but everybody who is trying to further

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Speaker 1: public discussion. So I think it's completely ludicrous. That's not

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Speaker 1: the only video of they've taken down. They took that

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Speaker 1: in a New York Post video. They took out videos

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Speaker 1: of people who are being interviewed on January sixth. You

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Speaker 1: don't think that that's not valuable? Who are these people?

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Speaker 1: Who are you? What they think they were doing all that?

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Speaker 1: What do you actually think what's going on? You know?

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Speaker 1: I mean, why it makes no sense there are people

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Speaker 1: on YouTube doing all kinds of stupid shit once again,

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Speaker 1: fine whatever I mean, I WHI just don't understand how

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Speaker 1: this could be instituted on a political basis, and how

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Speaker 1: they can justify taking down again a US government produced video,

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Speaker 1: like it's not up to them to decide what's true

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Speaker 1: what's not and all this is just shows how far

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Speaker 1: out of step that they've actually got. Well, and they're

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Speaker 1: also not honest about applying these standards evenly. There's actually

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Speaker 1: a new piece at Jackbin has a few quotes from

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Speaker 1: yours truly about YouTube censorship and specifically how it has

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Speaker 1: come after the left to show that this truly isn't

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Speaker 1: across the spectrum or at least a sort of left

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Speaker 1: right dissident thing. Go ahead and put this Jacobin tearsheet up.

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Speaker 1: This is by Bronco marcetek Hope. By the way, we're

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Speaker 1: having on Crystal Colin Friends this week. The headline here

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Speaker 1: is YouTube censorship is a threat to the left. He

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Speaker 1: gives a number of really significant examples here, but one

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Speaker 1: of them is Jordan Chariton, who you know status kup,

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Speaker 1: one of our partners here at breaking Points. They were

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Speaker 1: there on the ground at the January sixth riots and

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Speaker 1: had interviews with Trump supporters fame thing like, you know,

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Speaker 1: pushing back on them even about their claims and all

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Speaker 1: of that. And so ultimately YouTube sensors a lot of

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Speaker 1: their content from that day. But what really made it

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Speaker 1: egregious is because they were there on the ground and

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Speaker 1: they got this incredible footage, they licensed it to some

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Speaker 1: mainstream news outlets. Those mainstream news outlets they were allowed

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Speaker 1: to keep the footage on their channel. It was just

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Speaker 1: Jordan independent creator who actually originated it. Totally totally terrible.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that I think is really important

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind, and this is Ryan Grimm talks

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Speaker 1: about this as well, is that, like you know, instances

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Speaker 1: like this removal of the January sixth thing, it actually

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Speaker 1: in some ways is good for YouTube posturing towards their

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Speaker 1: towards the liberal audience of like, we taking misinformation seriously

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Speaker 1: and we're being responsible and we're doing it across the board,

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Speaker 1: when a lot of the real action in terms of

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Speaker 1: what gets seen and what doesn't get seen is at

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Speaker 1: the algorithm level, and that's what we experience more than anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean, seeing the difference between the way our videos

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Speaker 1: are treated here now that we're independent versus when we

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Speaker 1: were at the hill. We still get great views, we're

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Speaker 1: still really grateful for you know, you guys, and we

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Speaker 1: still have plenty of audience. But the videos that would

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Speaker 1: go megaviral, million views to a billion news or whatever,

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Speaker 1: that just doesn't happen anymore. And there's zero doubt that

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Speaker 1: the decisions that are being made at the algorithmic level.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot going on there. And then the other

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Speaker 1: piece of it is what they do feed and what

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Speaker 1: will get clicks all day long is like total conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 1: Like anytime you're playing with that stuff, you know it's

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Speaker 1: going to go they go megaviral. I mean you see

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Speaker 1: people who lean into that as a business model. So

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Speaker 1: they get to postures like, oh, we're taking misinformation seriously

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Speaker 1: while profiting off of pushing some of the most insane

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Speaker 1: and dishonest conspiracy theories through their algorithmic choices. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: bothers a lot of ways. Just the double standard. And

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Speaker 1: then also, you are not in the news business. It

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Speaker 1: is not your job to decide what is true or not.

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Speaker 1: It's up to people, and specifically you should trust YouTube

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Speaker 1: creators and your audience to not just be like I

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Speaker 1: watched a clip of Donald Trump saying the election was stolen.

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Speaker 1: Thus I believe it. That's not how people work, That's

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Speaker 1: not how information gets spread around. And look, you know

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Speaker 1: the fact that they can take down a government video

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Speaker 1: and there's not actually even real outcry around this, I

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Speaker 1: think it's totally nuts. It's like during COVID when they

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Speaker 1: would take out down testimony by legitimate doctors. Now it's

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Speaker 1: extending to January's The election is going to be a nightmare.

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Speaker 1: How the hell are we supposed to do our jobs?

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Speaker 1: Trump is probably going to run for president. What are

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Speaker 1: we supposed that Are you never going to show you

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Speaker 1: a Trump speech? You're gonna take down every Trump's speech?

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Speaker 1: What are we supposed to do? You know, it's like, well, look,

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Speaker 1: luckily that's where we have a podcast. That's why there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of other different venues that you can watch

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Speaker 1: this stuff, because we can't do our jobs properly otherwise,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can't be self censoring to give our

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Speaker 1: audience a subpart product. I'm not going to do it. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Some interesting battle lines being drawn in

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Speaker 1: the culture war. So the Texas GOP state convention happened

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Speaker 1: over the weekend. Now at that convention that happened, the

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Speaker 1: gay Republican group, the Log Cabin Republicans, applied in order

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Speaker 1: to set up a booth in Fort Worth. Now this

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Speaker 1: is the Log Cabin Republicans of Fort Worth who wanted

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Speaker 1: to set up this booth. Now, the booth permits are

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Speaker 1: directly controlled by the Texas Republican party leadership. They decided

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Speaker 1: not to allow the Texas Log Cabin Republicans in order

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Speaker 1: to have this booth. Now, this happened at the same

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Speaker 1: time that the state GOP declined to remove a platform,

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Speaker 1: a piece of their platform that called homosexuality and abomination,

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Speaker 1: and pressure from the religious right within the Texas GOP.

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Speaker 1: Now though, it's actually becoming a national issue amongst the

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign and for Republicans. So let's put this up

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Speaker 1: there on the screen, because here you have the direct

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Speaker 1: quote from Donald Trump Juniors was actually given directly to

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Speaker 1: Bright part where Trump Junior decries this, saying quote, the

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Speaker 1: Texas GOP should focus its energy on fighting back against

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Speaker 1: the radical Democrats and weak Rhinos instead of canceling a

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Speaker 1: group of gay conservatives who are standing with us in

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Speaker 1: the breach. So obviously Trump himself is not weighing in,

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Speaker 1: but Trump Junior, I think it's highly unusual that he

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Speaker 1: would issue an endorsement or a statement without the approval

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Speaker 1: of Trump people. Forget this. Donald Trump was actually the

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Speaker 1: first president ever elected in order to endorse gay marriage

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Speaker 1: whenever he was sworn into the oval office. Not really

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Speaker 1: something that appears in the battle lines. But the reason

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Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting and worth covering is it

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Speaker 1: kind of shows the barstool split that I've talked about

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Speaker 1: in the past, which is that you have the evangelical

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Speaker 1: right which continues to be opposed to Obergerfell and to

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Speaker 1: gay marriage, but a majority of Republicans now actually do

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Speaker 1: support the Oberger Full decision. And obviously the Trump campaign

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Speaker 1: Trump actually held up an lgbt Hugh flag and was

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Speaker 1: like lgbt squared for Trump or whatever. In twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: He always called himself like the most pro gay president

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Speaker 1: of his lifetime. So anyway, I thought it was interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is happening because Texas GOP obviously is still going

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Speaker 1: to be probably the state along with like Alabama, Mississippi

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Speaker 1: and others with big Southern Baptist populations to be most

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Speaker 1: influenced by the evangelical right. But this is kind of

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Speaker 1: like a schism that's happening because I mean, the Trump

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Speaker 1: family knows they're New York Okay, they're like New York liberals,

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Speaker 1: like they are not culture warriors in that sense, and

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Speaker 1: so this is going to be like a battle line.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, you are, Rhonda Santis, if you ever asked,

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Speaker 1: if he's asked about this, I have no idea where

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Speaker 1: you would fall. That is interesting. I mean it does

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Speaker 1: kind of show you because there's no doubt that reaction

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Speaker 1: against the LGBTQ community has become very animating among the

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Speaker 1: I mean it's always animating when the evangelical base, but

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Speaker 1: also among the hard right fringe. So like you saw

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Speaker 1: those Patriot Front people showing up at a Pride event

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Speaker 1: getting arrested. Ultimately, there have been other stories about people

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Speaker 1: showing up at like, you know, gay bars and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. Obviously that's been codified in Florida and other

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Speaker 1: places through the so called Don't Say Gay law, which

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Speaker 1: is meant to be you know, it's it's very vague

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of emphasis on, oh no, we're

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Speaker 1: not talking about gay people. We're talking about transgender but

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Speaker 1: that's our concern over here. But clearly there's been a

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Speaker 1: big spillover effect that has made this a very animating

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Speaker 1: issue for a significant part of the party. And so

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Speaker 1: I think the party Donald Trump ran in in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: where he could say, like, you know, have the gay

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Speaker 1: flag and run on gay marriage and all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: I think that party is very different now. I think

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Speaker 1: it's much harder to you know, kind of lean into

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Speaker 1: those issues than it was now because you've had the

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Speaker 1: return of all this like this groomer discourse, which was

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Speaker 1: always used to make gay people, you know, seem like

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Speaker 1: they were devan and like they were criminals and like

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Speaker 1: they were praying on children. Bringing that back in has

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Speaker 1: made this, reanimated this and made it a real, you know, schism,

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Speaker 1: I think in the country and within the Republican Party. See,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think this is about declaring

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Speaker 1: peace on gay marriage and then putting the frontline on

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Speaker 1: transgender discourse, drag school, drag whatever in school, specifically gender

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Speaker 1: transition for kids who are like below the age of fourteen.

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Speaker 1: And I think bifurcating, frankly is smart, you know, from

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Speaker 1: a popularity perspective, and is a legitimate, unresolved, you know

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Speaker 1: issue in American society, Like we don't have norms or

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Speaker 1: even language really to discuss. You're like, well, like when

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Speaker 1: is it okay? They're like plug food kids full of hormones?

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Speaker 1: Like should doctors get involved? The American Medical Association is

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Speaker 1: like completely divided, and so I think they're falling on

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Speaker 1: the course of the obviously much more. I mean, don't

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Speaker 1: so called don't say gay. It is like dramatically popular

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Speaker 1: in the state of Florida, and I mean even if

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Speaker 1: you look at Texas and some of the moves that

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Speaker 1: they're making, Like the people of Texas are very much

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Speaker 1: behind some of these new rules. And I mean I

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Speaker 1: even saw the New York Times, which is this is

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Speaker 1: how I always know the center left is grappling with

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Speaker 1: something when they're like, yeah, doctors have a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions about transition between the age of like below the

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Speaker 1: age of fourteen. Well, what they're what they dig into

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Speaker 1: is the debate within the community of people who care

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Speaker 1: for transgender people over how long the process should be

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Speaker 1: before young people like pre Pubethian are put on puberty blockers.

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Speaker 1: So that's which is irreversial, it's not the that's not true.

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Speaker 1: Puberty blockers you can stop taking and then you go

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Speaker 1: through puberty. They've been used you're talking about hormones. Puberty

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Speaker 1: blockers have been used for a long time in girls

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Speaker 1: who have I think they call it precocious puberty where

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Speaker 1: they have the onset of like menstruation, things like that

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Speaker 1: very early. And so they've been used for a long

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Speaker 1: time in girls who have that issue. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: once you stop taking the puberty blockers, it basically buys

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Speaker 1: you some time to try to figure out what's going

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Speaker 1: on or if you're in that instance, then you you know,

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Speaker 1: go through puberty at a more normal age. Hormones is

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Speaker 1: a different story. Of course, surgery you know as another

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Speaker 1: story as well, and with puberty blockers, the part that's

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Speaker 1: challenging is there isn't a lot of research about potential

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Speaker 1: health impacts. So for example, there are questions about whether

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Speaker 1: it can impact your fertility, there's questions about whether it

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Speaker 1: impacts your bone density, and so the debate within the

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Speaker 1: community people who care for transgender people is about, Okay,

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Speaker 1: how long what does that process look like before we

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Speaker 1: say okay, we feel confident that this is the right

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Speaker 1: move for you, and we feel like this is you know,

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Speaker 1: a true expression of who you are and your identity

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Speaker 1: at all. So that's where the debate lies. And I

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Speaker 1: do think it's important to have those debates, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there are transgender people and people care for transgender people

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Speaker 1: on both sides of those debates. So anyway, that's what's

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Speaker 1: going on there. But you can see the way that

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Speaker 1: this has been used in the Republican Party with massive

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Speaker 1: spillover effects where it's not just about like a question

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Speaker 1: of okay, do we do a one year evaluation or

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Speaker 1: do we do a two year evaluation. It's really a

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Speaker 1: pushback over the entire idea of, you know, having people

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Speaker 1: receive gender affirming care. So in Texas you have parents

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Speaker 1: who are being criminalized for supporting their kids transitioning. You

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Speaker 1: also have attempts to strip Medicaid funding from receiving gender

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Speaker 1: firm and care. And we know that that care helps

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Speaker 1: to prevent depression, suicidal ideation, and ultimately suicide. So that's

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Speaker 1: within the transgender community. And then I just think it's

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Speaker 1: undeniable that this doesn't just stay how we feel about

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Speaker 1: transgender people, This doesn't just stay there when you have

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Speaker 1: people showing up at pride events and you have this

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Speaker 1: groomor discourse coming back in which has long been used

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Speaker 1: to stigmatize everybody who is queer. So that's why you

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Speaker 1: have the Texas GOP saying, hey, we can't have gay

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Speaker 1: Republicans here at this. I mean, that's a sign that

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Speaker 1: the party has regressed on those issues. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's regrets. I think it's just staying put. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in the Texas I grew up there being louder. There're

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Speaker 1: being louder about it. I guess that's what I would

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Speaker 1: say it was probably always there, You're right, pretty loud

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, but I think that the new front specifically,

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Speaker 1: I was talking about hormones there, correct that you were

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Speaker 1: correcting me, not puberty blockers. The issue that I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of parent see, and this comes to the

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Speaker 1: groomer discourse, is when you do have the Michigan Attorney

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Speaker 1: generals and we need drag in every school, which is insane,

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Speaker 1: and you do see a general attempt at normalization of

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Speaker 1: a lot of this discourse at the youngest levels of

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Speaker 1: like two to three year olds all the way up

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Speaker 1: into kindergartens. That's where and get Look, it is undeniable

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Speaker 1: that you see a massive increase specifically amongst people who

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Speaker 1: are mentally challenged or certified autistic, where you see a

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Speaker 1: socialization of transgender ideology and gender ideology that you previously

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Speaker 1: So this is I'm drawing on the work of Abigail Schreyer,

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Speaker 1: which you previously saw with anarexia and other social contagents

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen nineties. So then it comes down to

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Speaker 1: are you going to apply irreversible hormones and surgery to

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Speaker 1: what could be a social contagent? And for all the

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Speaker 1: stories of so called gender a firm and care, which

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Speaker 1: leads to lessening and depression and more. You also see

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Speaker 1: post operative depression amongst the d transition community, which is

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Speaker 1: very large actually of people who kill themselves, very small percentage. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is all small enough. We're talking about more. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about edge that's true, We're talking about edge cases here.

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Speaker 1: And so the most comprehensive study of young people who

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Speaker 1: identified as trands and went forward with some steps so

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Speaker 1: as puberty blockers or others, was out of those five hundred,

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Speaker 1: I think there were eight who ultimately decided that they

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Speaker 1: wanted to go in a different direction. So you're talking

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Speaker 1: about comparatively a much smaller community. Now, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that we shouldn't make sure that there's a process in

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Speaker 1: place so that people don't end up with regrets. And

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Speaker 1: I think it also is legitimate to say we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a somewhat different community now because obviously the number

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Speaker 1: of people identifying as transgender has gone up. Yes, now,

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Speaker 1: I think that has a lot to do with the

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Speaker 1: fact that it's much more acceptable that the language very

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Speaker 1: much exists. But I think there are also questions being

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Speaker 1: even within the community over whether there are people who,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're young, they're trying to figure themselves out

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Speaker 1: and they see you know, videos online and think that

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Speaker 1: this might be their identity when ultimately it ends up

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Speaker 1: not being. So there's a lot complicated going on here,

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Speaker 1: I guess. Definitely fun culture war. It's the future, all right,

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Speaker 1: everybody time now for our weekly partnership segment with the Lever.

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Speaker 1: And joining us now from the Lever is the one

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Speaker 1: and only Matthew Cunningham Cook. Great to see, sir, Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for having me on Crystal. Yeah, our pleasure.

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Speaker 1: So more gray reporting that has not been picked up

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Speaker 1: anywhere else to my knowledge. Let's take a look at

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Speaker 1: this tear sheet. You say that Biden has tapped an

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Speaker 1: anti social security ideologue to oversee the program. Biden nominated

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Speaker 1: Andrew Bicks, a think tank denizen with a history of

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Speaker 1: slamming Social Security, to oversee government retirement benefits for sixty

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Speaker 1: six million Americans. What do we need to know? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean this is so it's for a Republican seat,

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Speaker 1: So I think that's that's worth clarifying. So this is

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Speaker 1: a joint thing between Senate Republicans and Joe Biden. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: the administration has decided to fill this seat even though

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Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell is refusing to confirm dozens and dozens of

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Speaker 1: his nominees. So basically, the administration is bending over backwards

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Speaker 1: to accommodate Mitch McConnell. And a point, somebody who really

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Speaker 1: has a history of really aggressive anti Social Security statements.

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Speaker 1: So he worked on Bush's privatization plan, by which Social

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Speaker 1: Security ends up being turned into a big four oh

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Speaker 1: one K plan. He has routinely endorsed the idea of

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Speaker 1: benefit cuts, He's vehemently against Social Security expansion, and on

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Speaker 1: top of all of that, has led efforts to attack

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Speaker 1: defined benefit pensions in the public sector, especially in Puerto Rico,

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Speaker 1: where he's on the Financial Control Board there, and that

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Speaker 1: board has mandated really aggressive cuts to public services across

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Speaker 1: the board and to pensions for public employees. So really Bigs,

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Speaker 1: fundamentally is somebody who does not believe that there is

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Speaker 1: a retirement crisis. He thinks that only twenty three percent

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Speaker 1: of Americans having less than seventy five percent of their

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Speaker 1: final income in retirement. Oh, that's not a problem. Never mind,

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Speaker 1: that's millions and millions and millions of people. So he

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Speaker 1: really has extreme views that are wildly out of step

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Speaker 1: with Americans views on this subject. Americans are overwhelmingly opposed

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Speaker 1: to social security cuts. Social Security is the most popular

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Speaker 1: program in the country, consistently eighty five ninety percent approval ratings.

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Speaker 1: And this is who again, you know when to fill

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Speaker 1: this position. Somebody more moderate has chosen, really a right

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Speaker 1: wing ideologue for this role. So yeah, and you point

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Speaker 1: out that Trump in a similar circumstance, you just would

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Speaker 1: refuse to put Democrats on boards. So that's how Republicans

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Speaker 1: play this game. Just so you guys know some details

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Speaker 1: here about from your piece about bigs writings on social Security.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned he hand waved away. You say retirement

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Speaker 1: insecurity for millions of Americans, saying only twenty three percent

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Speaker 1: of seniors will have retirement incomes equal to or less

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Speaker 1: than seventy five percent of their average pre retire and earnings.

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Speaker 1: Was concerned by social security taxes being raised on upper

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Speaker 1: middle class Americans, endorsed cuts to social security. Our social

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Speaker 1: security privatization would make Americans quote not only richer, but

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Speaker 1: also happier, healthier, more familial, smarter, and more active citizens. Wow. Okay.

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Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, he justified the idea of raising the

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Speaker 1: retirement age for Social Security benefits as well, saying that

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Speaker 1: Americans quote biggest on the job risk is you know,

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Speaker 1: carpal tunnel syndrome for your mouse or something like that.

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Speaker 1: So very dismissive of this program altogether, seemingly working to

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Speaker 1: find every way he can to justify raising the age,

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Speaker 1: cutting benefits, privatizing it, etc. And I think one of

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Speaker 1: the things that you and Sorota have both been raising

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Speaker 1: red flags about is listen, nobody's talking about Social Security cuts. Well,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say nobody. Democrats are not talking about socse

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Speaker 1: security cuts right now, Republicans are starting to talk about

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Speaker 1: quote unquote titlement program cuts. And we've been to this

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Speaker 1: play before. We know, after Obama got shell ACKed in

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Speaker 1: the midterms, that was when he came in. Oh, we

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Speaker 1: got to have a bipartisan budget hawk deficit deal, including

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Speaker 1: repeatedly trying to get Republicans to the table to cut

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Speaker 1: benefits on these programs. So this comes at a very

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Speaker 1: risky moment for the for Social Security as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely right. Is Lindsey Graham has made

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Speaker 1: clear that you know, if he's the chairman of the

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Speaker 1: Budget Committee next year that he plans to go after

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Speaker 1: Social Security and Medicare and retirement programs, And so Biggs's

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Speaker 1: nomination is really about teeing that up. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is you know, Biggs is a very sophisticated kind

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Speaker 1: of guy, you know, who is a really really good

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Speaker 1: at navigating Washington bureaucracy to effectuate savage cuts against the

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Speaker 1: working class. That's what he's shown in his six years

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Speaker 1: on the board in Puerto Rico. So so, yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I think that really what we're seeing is this more

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Speaker 1: or less this announcement that got no coverage outside of

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Speaker 1: the lever Really, I think we'll be seen as a

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Speaker 1: marking point for a new battle to protect socials here.

430
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: I think that's social Security in the nice Congress. But

431
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: it's going to take a significant mobilization, just like it

432
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: did in twenty eleven and twenty twelve and twenty thirteen

433
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: and twenty fourteen to defend the program back then as well. Yeah,

434
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,239
Speaker 1: I think that is all really well said. Thank you

435
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: so much for actually paying attention to these things. I

436
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: think that, as you said, we're going to look back

437
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,719
Speaker 1: at some of these warning signs and recognize what they

438
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: actually were and what they were building towards. So Matthew

439
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: Cunningham Cook, great to see you. Thank you, Thanks so

440
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: much for having me Krystal. Our pleasure. Andrew Gillam, who

441
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: ran for governor of Florida against Ron DeSantis narrowly losing,

442
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: had long been seen as sort of a rising star

443
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: in the party. He had a star turn on CNN.

444
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: He's actually a regular guest on Real Time with Bill Maher.

445
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: He has now officially been indicted on a number of charges.

446
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and put this tear sheet up on

447
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: the screen. This is before the indictment actually came through.

448
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: Now this morning we have confirmation the indictment has come down.

449
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: But this says Andrew Gilliam, DeSantis's twenty eighteen opponent, indicted

450
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: for wire fraud and false statements. I'll give you the

451
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: details of what he is accused of, and of course

452
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: he and his lawyers deny any wrongdoing. It says, according

453
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: to the indictment, the FBI began to sniff out the

454
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: alleged scheme of Gillim and another individual's last name was

455
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: Letman Hicks back in twenty sixteen when he was mayor,

456
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: undercover agents investigating corruption in the city he was mayor

457
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: of were steered to him. The two together allegedly used

458
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: his position as mayor, as a progressive activist, and then

459
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: as a top candidate for governor to skim money from

460
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: a variety of individual donors and nonprofits, fraudulently pretending to

461
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: perform voter outreach or to fight for local government rights

462
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: while pocketing the cash. Even after his campaign for governor ended,

463
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: his decision to resign from his job at the liberal

464
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: group People for the American Way and early twenty seventeen

465
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: really heard him. Financially, he couldn't afford to forego that

466
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty two thousand dollars a year salary, So,

467
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: according to the indictment, he and this other individual, Elevend Hicks,

468
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: then arranged for money to flow through her communications business,

469
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: which then paid him as an employee or as a contractor.

470
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: So they were collecting these funds under other auspices, claiming

471
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: it was going to other things, and then to be

472
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: funneled through her firm and go to Andrew Gillham. That

473
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: is the allegation here. The last piece that they have

474
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: in this article that I think just as a refresher,

475
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: because even when he was running for governor, there were

476
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: allegations I remember, of corruption. Deshantas hit him hard on

477
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: that he'd been under federal investigation for years, they say,

478
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: starting with his time as Tallahassee mayor, when he accepted

479
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: freebies from lobbyists and special interests, including a free New

480
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: York Harver boat ride, tickets in New York to the

481
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: musical Hamilton, which were supplied by an undercover FBI agent

482
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: posing as a corrupt developer with a company called Southern Pines.

483
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: Gilm wasn't charged in that scheme, but he did agree

484
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: to pay a five thousand dollars state ethics fine for

485
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: improperly accepting gifts. So that was sort of the spark

486
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: of this investigation. And then according to the indictment, which

487
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: is quite serious and by the way, the crimes he's

488
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: accused of and it's like twenty one counts carry maximum

489
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: penalties of many years in prison, twenty years in prison,

490
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: So these are very very serious charges that he's facing

491
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: at this point. Oh, this is really crazy, Crystal, because

492
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: this guy came thirty two thousand votes away from being

493
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: the governor. I mean he lost by only zero point

494
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: four percent of the vote. I don't know if people

495
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: remember that twenty and eighteen, and he's at a massive

496
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: He was also a star, or was considered one until

497
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: a sex scandal in March of twenty twenty. So look,

498
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: I think, you know, on a personal level, it seems

499
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: like everything is falling apart. He says he was abusing alcohol.

500
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: But at the same time, these charges stem from twenty

501
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: sixteen to twenty nineteen, you know, clearly when he was

502
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: both living like in a closeted life and also engaging

503
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: in some pretty sketchy behavior financially. So I don't know.

504
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a massive fall from grace because who

505
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: else do the Democrats have in the state of Florida. Like,

506
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: he was considered the next guy to run up against DeSantis,

507
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: and he was like a Stacey Abrams type figure with

508
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: the media. He was a paid CNN commentator, very high

509
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: profile Democrat, and boom, I mean, massive fall from grace.

510
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: It also does validate the corruption charges that Desantus leveled

511
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: at him during the twenty eighteen campaign, which everybody said

512
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: was false. They're like, oh, it's racist, or like okay, well,

513
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: Fezis charged him. Yeah, I mean the bottom has clearly

514
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: put out for this guy. There's there's just no other

515
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: way to put it at this point. And you know,

516
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: they kind of again he denies wrongdoing, sutters are, but

517
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: it sounds like they kind of caught him dead to

518
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: rights directly lying to undercover agents. So you know on

519
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 1: the false statements piece, which they can really they can

520
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: really get you for. Like that part seems pretty clear cut.

521
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: And then we'll have to see the evidence as to

522
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: you know, how the financial shinan against work to here

523
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: funneling the money that you claim is you know, for

524
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: voter outreach or you claim is for other purposes into

525
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: your bank account to try to cover this loss from

526
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: the other position. So anyway, that's what's going on. A

527
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: unearthed clip of political scientist John Meerscheimer, whose previous commentary

528
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: on sort of Ukraine and the dangers of expansions of

529
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: NATO has proved to be pretty Prussian, but he's also

530
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: very you know, controversial figure, I think because he does

531
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: place a lot of blame on the West for Russia's

532
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine. But there's a new clip that has

533
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: been resurfaced of him from twenty sixteen, which has gotten

534
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: a lot of eyeballs on it and passed around a

535
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: ton online because of how incredibly Prussian he is. In

536
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: his comments here, specifically, he was asked what the biggest

537
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: disaster in US foreign policy was. The panelists next to

538
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: hipparently said a rock. His answer was as follows, Let's

539
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: take a listen, and for a few more years we

540
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: may think that the crisis over Ukraine was the biggest

541
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: mistake we made. I'm actually very nervous about the situation

542
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: in Europe. The Russians have thousands of nuclear weapons. They're scared,

543
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: and we're doing a number of things in Eastern Europe

544
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: that they view as very provocative. And I've spent a

545
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: lot of time studying great power behavior, and great powers

546
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: tend to be paranoid. You cannot underestimate how scared they get.

547
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: And when you take a country like Russia that has

548
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: a sense of vulnerability and you begin to push them

549
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: towards the ledge, you get in their face, you're asking

550
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: for trouble. It's possible that they might use those nuclear weapons.

551
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: It's possible you could have a real war in Eastern Europe.

552
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: And this makes me very nervous. Right, Iraq is a disaster,

553
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: but the consequences for the United States, as I said earlier,

554
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: just not that great because we're so secure. But once

555
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: you start introducing nuclear weapons into the equation, it's a

556
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 1: different story. And I would also add that because the

557
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: Cold War is in the distant past, most people, especially

558
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: younger people, haven't thought a lot about nuclear weapons and

559
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: nuclear deterrence, and they tend to be quite cavalier in

560
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: their comments about nuclear weapons, and this makes me very nervous.

561
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: So I think that you're right from the perspective of

562
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: today that Iraq was the biggest mistake, but I think

563
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: the Ukraine crisis, which goes back to your point about

564
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: the third tranch of NATO expansion, may be seen as

565
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: the biggest problem. Yeah. I mean, look, he has always

566
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: been incredibly cogent and well thinking, and graduate school, him

567
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: and Steven Walt were soo of the biggest influences on

568
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: my personal thinking. They're both arch realists, and the realist

569
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: school has really been poo pooed and like put down

570
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: in the elite sphere of foreign policy thinking for a

571
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: long time. The dominant thinking while I was in school

572
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: that came to rise with Trump and the end of

573
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: the Obama administration was Samantha power kind of responsibility to

574
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: protect called R two p like America is this great

575
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: moral power and must act through this humanitarian impulse, not

576
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: just humanitarian, but should put values over national interests. And

577
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: Walt's essay actually just pulled it up because it had

578
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: such a massive impact on me at the time he

579
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: wrote it. In Foreign Policy, it's called would you die

580
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: for that country? Why the United States needs to think

581
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: twice before calling Ukraine in ally and was specifically about

582
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: what it really means to have an ally, what NATO

583
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: membership expansion towards the East. I'd never really considered that,

584
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: And then the more I studied Russian history, I'm like,

585
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, these are paranoid people historic not the people specifically,

586
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: but like the leaders of that country. They all kind

587
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: of lead in the same direction. They tend to invade

588
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: their neighbors a lot. They also deeply feel insecure relative

589
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: to their status in the West. There kind of really

590
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: are their own culture feeling besieged, not unfairly, sometimes for

591
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: a long time. And the worst possible thing you could

592
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: do is antagonize that country and inducing nuclear exchange because

593
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: that's probably the place where it would be the most

594
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: likely to outbreak. And then relative to our interests, trade

595
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: interests and more. I mean, look like it's outside of

596
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: the oil market. This is not even close to like

597
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: ten percent of the world GDP. So yeah, I think

598
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that were interesting in there.

599
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: I mean, where I think I just sent from Meerscheimer

600
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: is his formulation is like this is inevitable, like X

601
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: plus Y equals them, and you know, I think that

602
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: that can have the impact of taking away responsibility from

603
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: bad actors like Putin and you know, and laying the

604
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: blame exclusively on the West, even though we've talked about

605
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: the way that what we did in expanding NATO and

606
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: some of our other actions made this outcome not inevitable,

607
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: but made it predictable. There were warning signs there that,

608
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, we should have heeded the words of Meerscheimer

609
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: and others who were raising concerns at the time. It

610
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: stood out to me has comment that great powers tend

611
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: to be paranoig, which I think is true because a

612
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: lot of people say, you know, it's ridiculous that the

613
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: idea that we're going to like, you know, that NATO

614
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: represents some threat to Russia in the current day. But

615
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, if the shoe or other on the other foot,

616
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: and we were looking at this, you know, expansions China

617
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: or Russia, whoever it was coming closer and closer to

618
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: our borders, how do you think we would feel about it,

619
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: regardless of what they were telling and their assurances that

620
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: they were giving us publicly. So that's one I would

621
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: dissent from the idea that Iraq was really no big

622
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: deal for the United States of America because to be fair,

623
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: like he is talking on the security, yes, I get it,

624
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: but I just want to put that out there. Obviously,

625
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: Iraq was a total, incomplete disaster, and you know, I

626
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: think part of how we end up in the place

627
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: we are now, where we've had so little investment, we're

628
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: so unprepared, and our country has you know, been pulled

629
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: apart by the media and all that. A lot of

630
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: those things go back to I Rock Nomta and also

631
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: the way that we completely upended the Middle East and

632
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: created a disaster security situation there as well. But the

633
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: other part that I thought was really notable and extremely

634
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,479
Speaker 1: prescient was what he said about the cavalier attitude towards

635
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. We barely in the media coverage, and the

636
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: media coverage of Ukraine has been extensive, we barely hear

637
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: those reminders that, hey, this is a nuclear power we're

638
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: playing with. The actually have more nukes than we do.

639
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: And the one thing he talks about, you know, this

640
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: is a younger generation issue, but I haven't experienced this

641
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 1: to be a younger generation issue in particular. In fact,

642
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: from the polling, the younger generation is the most concerned

643
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: and most skeptical about what our policy is in the

644
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: way that we are prolonging and exacerbating the chance of

645
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: a direct conflict with Russia. But there is certainly a

646
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: lot of cavalier attitude about like, he's not really going

647
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: to do it, He's just bluffing. This is ridiculous, Why

648
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: are you even considering this? And that is deep of

649
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: everything that we've seen in this war. That is the

650
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: most disturbing part to me. There have been two times,

651
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: you know, when I really came to grips with this

652
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: was actually North Korea. So I really remember thinking about

653
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: this a lot back in twenty seventeen when Trump was playing,

654
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: you know, with fire and fury war and I was like,

655
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: oh my god, like, you know, the North Koreans have

656
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: a nuke that could destroy the city of Los Angeles,

657
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: Like this is real, this is real, Like you could

658
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: wipe Hawaii off the map and they're crazy. I mean,

659
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 1: they actually might do it. That Imagine what the world

660
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: would have looked like. It would have been like a

661
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: World War One style event. And we were close, you know,

662
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: we were a lot closer than people like to remember. Thankfully, Trump,

663
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, turned on the dime and decided to meet Kim,

664
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: which I still think is one of the best things

665
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: that he did as president. I wish Biden would go

666
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: meet him, actually, because Kim is, you know, definitely feeling

667
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: aggrieved and thinking about doing some more destabilizing stuff in

668
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: the region. So anyway, the second time has been Ukraine

669
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, things are fine now, but you never know.

670
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: I mean, all it takes is one thing. And a

671
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: week later, consider the Cuban missile crisis. You know, John F.

672
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: Kennedy woke up one day and found out that there

673
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: were nuclear weapons or nearly operational nuclear weapons in Cuba.

674
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: Five days later, the world was on the brink of

675
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: a nuclear catastrophe, and thirteen days later, the crisis was resolved,

676
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: and as Robert McNamara, the Secretary of Defense, has said,

677
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: it was luck that saved us from a full blown

678
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: nuclear war. He was like Kennedy was rational, Khrushchev was rational,

679
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, it was luck

680
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: that saved us from a full nuclear exchange. So you know,

681
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to put the odds on luck for

682
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: the last one. Yeah, and let's not handwave away the

683
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: possibility of nuclear war. All right, guys, thanks so much

684
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: for watching. More for you later. We've been tracking the

685
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: evolution of this Saudi backed PGA competitor here in the

686
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: United States, which is upending the world of professional golf.

687
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: I personally think it's repulsive and disgusting that American golfers,

688
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: household names who made their names on the PAGA tour

689
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: are cashing out for untold millions by the Saudi backed

690
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: LIV group. And then it really is just a cash ground.

691
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: It it's like a blatant cash paying out hundreds of

692
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: millions of dollars and it's splitting the world of golf.

693
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: And I think it's disgusting to allow this foreign power,

694
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: which itself is a repulsive regime, in order to come

695
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: here and screw with our sports. And I'm not the

696
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: only people would think that. Nine to eleven families, let's

697
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: go ahead and put this up there on the screen.

698
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: A group of nearly twenty five hundred survivors of family

699
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: members killed or injured on the terrorist attacks in nine

700
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: to eleven are writing an open letter to the PGA

701
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: Tour members who have stayed away from liv Golf Invitational,

702
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: thanking them for remaining loyal to the tour and not

703
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: joining the Saudi backed investment fund backed golf tour. And

704
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: I think that this really does show you that we

705
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: need to make it stark and have these athletes pay

706
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: a public price for publicly selling out their Look, I'm

707
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: not saying the PGA is the best. I don't even

708
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: watch golf. From what I understand, they've screwed around with them.

709
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 1: I get it, okay, But at the same time, going

710
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: and taking Saudi blood money is not the answer, and

711
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: that's what these people are doing. You know, we're talking

712
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: about major stars in the golf world who are destroying

713
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: the sport and doing so with our adversary and also

714
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: really not paying any price. I mean, I've personally been disgusted.

715
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: I don't think the sports media is really doing a

716
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: good enough job here. They seem tepid in kind of

717
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: criticizing this. This is a real political scandal, and I

718
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: you know, I think people in the golf world, who

719
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: at least I've spoken to so far, are like, hey,

720
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: this is bullshit, Like this is is not only not fair,

721
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: they're corrupting it. But we can't have this. I mean,

722
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: this was a China back league, I'd be saying the

723
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: exact same thing. So Kyle issessed with golf, So I

724
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: have learned more about golf in the past year than

725
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: I have ever expected to know in my entire life.

726
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: And yeah, he believes this is a really could crush

727
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: the PGA. I mean, it's that much of a threat.

728
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: And you know, you have now Trump coming out and

729
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,959
Speaker 1: basically praising the Saudi backed tour because of PGA pulled

730
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: out of some of his property. Not only that, but

731
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: the Saudi one is hosting some events at his properties.

732
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: Always all always about the bottom line for this dude.

733
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: But it is also a reminder of how cozy he

734
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: was with them during the administration. There was all this

735
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: media focus on his relationship with Russia and all of

736
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: that when as Ken Klippenstein always told me like, no,

737
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: the real story was about the corruption with regards to

738
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: the golf states, Saudi, UAE, et cetera. So so yeah,

739
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's par for the course. You might say,

740
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: see what I did there, it's so embarrassing. No, it's disgusting.

741
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: It really is disgusting, And it's created a very clear

742
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: dividing line in the golf world where now it's just

743
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: like clear as day, who's just can be easily bought

744
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: and it's just going to go for the cash, go

745
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: for the bag over literally anything else. And who actually has,

746
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, some principles and is willing to stick with them.

747
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: I don't even watch golf, and I know who Phil

748
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: Mickelson and Dustin Johnson are and the fact that they're

749
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: going over to the l IV is so repulsive to me.

750
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: And so look, I don't know much how we can

751
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: do about it, But why don't you listen to the

752
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: people who lost their family members on nine to eleven.

753
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: I think that, if anything, they have the mora high

754
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: ground in our society right now, so in there we

755
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: need all right, Welcome back to another edition of Breaking

756
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: Points the Intercept, where we talk about stories that the

757
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: Intercept broke. Oftentimes those are stories that Ken Clippenstein broke.

758
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: So Ken, thanks for joining me here again. Good to

759
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: be with you, and thank you guys for indulging us

760
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: in this and for being members of Breaking Points, which

761
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: is what enables this kind of partnership to take hold.

762
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: And so Ken's story this week is the result of

763
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: a FOYA. We can put it up here. It's called

764
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: the headline is intel report warned Abraham Accords would fuel violence.

765
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: So this is based on an intelligence report that you

766
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: and Beth obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.

767
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: And for people who always hear that term kicked around

768
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: FOYA freedom of information, tell let's start actually there for

769
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: a one minute, like what is a FOYA? And like

770
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: how did you get into throwing out so many foils

771
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: and how did how is it that you are the

772
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: one that got this back rather than other members of

773
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: the media. So Freedom Information Act, that's a federal law

774
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: by which you can essentially request any government document and

775
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: have a disclose to you. Now there are a number

776
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 1: of exemptions. There's national security information, if there's privacy information,

777
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: that they can black things out or redact them. But

778
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: the general idea is a good one, which is that

779
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: you know, taxpayers fund the government and so they have

780
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: a right to see what they're up to and what

781
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: it is that they're doing. And so it was with

782
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: that Act that I was able to file a request

783
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: get this intelligence report back from the Department of Homeland

784
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: Security and see that I'm the timing here, like what's

785
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: the request? Look like? How long does it take you

786
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: to get it back? Well, I had to sue for this,

787
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: you mentioned at the moment ago Ordon, my attorney. We

788
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: went to federal court because when I put in the

789
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 1: request for this and other intelligence supports, they didn't produce them.

790
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: And when you see a report like this, you can

791
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: see why that is. This is that a lot of

792
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: the intelligence reporting is embarrassing. And in this case, what

793
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: the intelligence report found this was Trump's own intelligence agency,

794
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: Trump administration, because this was in twenty twenty, saying that

795
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: his signature diplomatic program for all of the Middle East

796
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: was going to increase the risk of terror attacks not

797
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: just in the region, but against Americans in the United States. Right,

798
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: So you go to court this you get this report

799
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: that DHS had put together, and so what do they

800
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: mean by well, First of all, Abraham Accurts will quickly

801
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: define what that is. That's basically Jared Koshner's baby, where

802
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: people said, look, how are you going to resolve the

803
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: Israeli Palestinian crisis that's been going on for fifty plus years,

804
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: and Koshner said, well, I'm going to resolve it by

805
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: ignoring the Palestinians. I'm just going to cut a deal

806
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: that's basically a business deal between Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE

807
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: and Israel. Well what about the Palestinians, Well, don't worry

808
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: about the Palestinians. Yes, Noah. It's such a cynical move

809
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: because they were trying to pitch it in you know,

810
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: the Washington Press and a lot in the think tanks.

811
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: They ran with this framing of it as a peace

812
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: agree right piece. But the question is between why is

813
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: there not peace to begin with? Because there are millions

814
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: of displaced people without a state, and that creates conflict

815
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: between the Arab nations and Israel. And I would say

816
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: that's probably a good reason for a conflict, Like you know,

817
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: it's not a good reason for you know, terrorism, but

818
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: it's like a good reason for there to be a

819
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: disagreement and a need for geopolitical conflict is going to

820
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: be created by any legal occupation that goes on for

821
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: fifty plus years, right, But whether that becomes we're not

822
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: saying it ought to become violent, but it's going to

823
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: create conflict between states. And so he's kind of right exactly.

824
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: So their solution, their great innovation, was coming and say, hey,

825
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: what if we just stick our head in the sands

826
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: and pretend like this whole Palestine thing doesn't exist and

827
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: we just paper over that and then we can make disagreement,

828
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: which by the way, is very unpopular in the Arab world.

829
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: But the sort of cynical calculation on the part of

830
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: the sort of Washington Planets, this kind of thing is, well,

831
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: the Arab world is largely run by dictators, so the

832
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: public doesn't have a say, so we can just ram

833
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: something like this through and not have to worry what

834
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: ordinary Arab stac Well, it turns out sometimes you do

835
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: have to worry about that, because there can be unrest,

836
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: there can be you know, it leads to other problems.

837
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: But they just pretended like none of that existed. And

838
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: what does the DHS find in this intelligence report? So

839
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: they found This is interesting. So Department of Homeland Security,

840
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: the word homeland being the operative term here. Their concern

841
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: is US equities in primarily the domestic United States. So

842
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: for them to issue report saying that there's a threat

843
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 1: of increased terrorism as a consequence of disagreement, that's very interesting.

844
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: This isn't the CIA, this isn't the Department of Defense.

845
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: You know, to say that it leads to an increase

846
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: in the likely of terrorism in the Middle East would

847
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: be sort of obvious, and you know that's bad in itself,

848
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: but that there's a threat to US equities in the

849
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: domestic United States, and as a report notes, against US Jews,

850
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: because the idea is that there's going to be resentment

851
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: towards Israel and people might respond to that a rise

852
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: in anti Semitic violence. Exactly right. Yeah, So I mean

853
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: there's real stakes here. If you're an ordinary American and

854
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,439
Speaker 1: you don't particularly care what happens in the Middle East.

855
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: You just care about what happens in the continental United States.

856
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's why we had to

857
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: sue for it, because you disclose something like that, it's embarrassing.

858
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: And the reality is a lot of these intelligence agencies.

859
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: I think the rank and file tend to have more INTEGRIL,

860
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: but the political leadership who were appointed by the White House,

861
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: they know not to let things like this come out

862
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: because it's going to embarrass their guy in the Oval Office. Yeah,

863
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 1: and so Democrats in real time kind of poo pooed

864
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: this for the rational reasons that we're talking about here.

865
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: You can't cut a peace deal between two parties by

866
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: cutting out one of the parties. Yet now Democrats are

867
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: in power, and what is the Biden administration's posture now

868
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: towards the quote unquote Abraham. They were trying to do

869
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing that the Trump administration did, in

870
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: fact even worse because they're trying to let Saudi Arabia

871
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: into the normalization. If you look at the normalization deal

872
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: that President Trump and his administration pursued, it was primarily

873
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: between Israel, Bahrain and the UAE. But when you add

874
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: Saudi you know, I was interviewing for the story treat

875
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: A Parsi, a very good expert at the Quincy Institute.

876
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: He said, Saudi Arabia was always the prize because it's

877
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: first of all, far bigger nation in terms of population.

878
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: They have a much much bigger oil reserve, so geopolitically

879
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: they're more powerfully, they're more powerful, and crucially they're the

880
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: keeper of the most holy sites in Islam. And so

881
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: the idea is that, you know, if they bury the

882
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: hatchet with Israel normalized relations, they can just totally forget

883
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: of the Plastidinian problem because this is the most powerful

884
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 1: Arab state. That's that's saying, you know, things are fine,

885
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna reinstate. When I say normalized, I mean reinstate

886
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 1: diplomatic ties, formal diplomatic ties with the Israel government. And

887
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: to show that the Biden administration understands what the DHS

888
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: was saying here fundamentally, There's been recent reporting that in

889
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: his in his in the lead up to his coming

890
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: trip to Israel, which will also involve a trip to

891
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: Riod as well, that the Biden administration has asked the

892
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: Israelis basically, don't do anything crazy between now and the

893
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: time that we meet, because it will be thoroughly embarrassing

894
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: if you say, break round on brand new settlement projects,

895
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: if there's video of you demolishing Palestinian holmes, or if

896
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: you shoot it, or if you shoot a journalist. He's

897
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: very famous in respect to the country. Right, So now

898
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: the definition of crazy is in the ivy beholder. So

899
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: it's not as if the you know, all of the

900
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: legal activity is going to halt overnight. But what what

901
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: is it? You know, how does how does Biden's trip

902
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: to the region fit into this, uh, you know, fit

903
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: into this expansion of the Abraham Accords. Well, first of all,

904
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: he's pursuing it. And if you look at what the

905
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: administration said, you know, after so many liberals decried the

906
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: Trump administration rightly for pursuing this, the Biden administration is

907
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: trying to do a version of it on steroids and

908
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: take credit for it. And the jealousy is palpable among

909
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: some of the sort of state craft side of the

910
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: Biden administration. Because the Biden administration has asked the media

911
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: in the past not to use the term Abraham Accords.

912
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: I think there's one way to read that, which is

913
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: that we want to be able to name it for

914
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: ourselves so that we can take credit for it. We're

915
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: jealous of that Trump had this diplomatic achievement, if you

916
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: want to call it that, the Goliath Accords, which what

917
00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: should it be called? Biden Accords, the Democratic Cords, and

918
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: so when you look at some of these discussion around

919
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: his visits, these things is supposed to be a blessing

920
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: for this kind of arrangement because if you look at

921
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: so here's what's interesting about it, something like Rensanty diplomatic

922
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: ties with Israel between Saudi where domestically, again it's going

923
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: to be very unpopular, including among you know, religious orders

924
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: that have power within the country and could conceivably pose

925
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: some sort of threat to Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince.

926
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: The question is, well, what are the Saudis getting out

927
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: of it? And that's what's really scary because we are

928
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: now seeing reporting in axios and other outlets suggesting that

929
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: in exchange for this, the Biden administration is willing to

930
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: give them certain security guarantees by which they can request

931
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: US military power, US tax dollar backed equipment and military

932
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: support to come to their aid in whatever it is

933
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: that they request. And so the US is going to

934
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: be on the hook to basically remunerate them for this

935
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: deal that is intensely unpopular in the air world. So

936
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: in addition to the threat of terror attacks against the US,

937
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: that's a whole other factor that I think shows that

938
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: there's going to be a cost imposed on the US

939
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: and exchange for this, And could it be the kind

940
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: of cost that spirals into a regional conflict, like drags

941
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: us into it exactly. So that's the problem when you

942
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: give a security agreement that's not something that exists in

943
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: a vacuum more suddenly, Oh, you know, we're going to

944
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: keep behaving the same way. Put yourself in the shoes

945
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: of one of these Gulf states like Saturabia. You have

946
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: the backing of the biggest, toughest, most powerful military. How

947
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: are you going to behave? Probably you're going to care

948
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: a little bit less about being risk averse and cautious

949
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: and worrying about responses because you've got famously incautious MBS exactly.

950
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: And when you talk to people in the diplomatic community,

951
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: that's the impression a lot of them. Initially, We're like,

952
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: this isn't going to happen. It's too crazy because it's

953
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: too risky for Sata Arabia. And as Biden makes it

954
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: clear that he's pushing this and NBS and signals that

955
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: he's open to it, there there has been you know,

956
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: when I in my talk to these guys. They're like,

957
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: oh my god, we might have been wrong. NBS is

958
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: so young and so green, he might actually do this now.

959
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a shift in terms of

960
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: thinking what might actually happen. And there was this incredible

961
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,959
Speaker 1: German military intelligence assessment of MBS that leaked maybe twenty

962
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: fifteen or something when he was just deputy Defense minister

963
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: that said, this guy is wildly rash. He's he has

964
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: impulse control issues, like this is someone to be very

965
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: nervous about. He has showed his impulse control issues now

966
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: on the global stage of you know, block hating cutter

967
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: killing Jamal Kashogi, rounding up a whole dozens of people

968
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: and torturing them, and the Ritz Carlton like just stuff,

969
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: stuff that is just outside the norms of even like

970
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: a normal barbaric socalitarian ruler, and it seems like it's

971
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: working for him. Oh yeah. So if you're one of

972
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: these risk takers like MBS, and you keep taking these risks,

973
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: and you keep having people tell you this is too risky,

974
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: don't do this, it's not going to work out for you.

975
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: You and over time it continues to work out for you.

976
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: You can only imagine what kind of risks he wants

977
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: to take next. And we haven't even gotten to know

978
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: their pursuit of nuclear technology, but that'll be maybe for

979
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: another time. We got a pleasant sign yah, yeah, another

980
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: pleasant segment at the end of the world. We're going

981
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: to have to leave it there for now. Ken. As always,

982
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure doing these Breaking Points segments with you,

983
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 1: and thank you guys for watching. If you have if

984
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: you have anything that Ken should be reporting on, if

985
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: everything I should be reporting on my DMS or open.

986
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: If you have anything for Ken, what's your what's your signal?

987
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 1: Two zero two five one zero twelve sixty eight. All right,

988
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: reach out, reach out to Ken. Always there for you,

989
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 1: Always here for you. See you soon. Hey, guys, our

990
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: friend Marsha Kossof he's going to be conducting interviews with

991
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: experts and newsmakers for us here on the Breaking Points channel.

992
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: We're really excited. Yep, here it is, Hey, Jules, welcome

993
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: back to Breaking Points. Hey Marshall, I'm good to see

994
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: you here. Yeah. I chatted with you for my first

995
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: ever segment. I believe we were talking about how you

996
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: went to the White House as a TikTok influencer to

997
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: discuss like the importance of alternate forms of news, and

998
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: I thought you were the perfect person to talk about

999
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: this big story with TikTok a little earlier in the week,

1000
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: which basically relates to TikTok having access to personal data.

1001
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: Can you just explain what's really happened. You've done some

1002
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: great coverage of the topic. Yeah, So what seems to

1003
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: be happening is there we're about eighty meeting internal meetings

1004
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: leaked from TikTok, and it seems to be throughout the

1005
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: period of when Trump was trying to ban the app,

1006
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: which was like a summer of twenty twenty into the

1007
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: fall of twenty twenty. And of course that conversation has

1008
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: still lasted up until today, so it's been about two

1009
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: years now that this has been going on. So it

1010
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: was eighty leaked audios from these meetings, coverage of basically

1011
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: saying that China still had access to a lot of,

1012
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: if not all, of the data. So that's not just

1013
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: in terms of age and names of users and every

1014
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: like that. That That goes as far as like deleted drafts

1015
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: within the app, so super personal stuff for people who

1016
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: don't know, like something an app like Snapchat. A lot

1017
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: of young people use that as like their default camera app,

1018
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: and you know, you say that to your Snapchat camerable

1019
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: ine TikTok is kind of slowly becoming similar to that.

1020
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: So the stuff that you have in your drafts that

1021
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: you don't even intend on putting out into the world

1022
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: is very personal stuff all the time. So it is

1023
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: pretty crazy that an app like China can have access

1024
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,760
Speaker 1: to that. So a lot of these meetings were actually

1025
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: apparently also through like September twenty twenty one, all the

1026
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: way up until January twenty twenty two was the most

1027
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: recent one, I believe, So what that's just like five

1028
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: six months ago, and at that point, China still had

1029
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 1: a lot of access to the data, and it's unclear

1030
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: right now if that is still the case, but apparently

1031
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: TikTok clear out a statement last week that a lot

1032
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: of the data has moved over finally to Oracle, which

1033
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: is again has been in the works for two years,

1034
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,439
Speaker 1: but even it's still concerned having data for the past

1035
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: three years on a lot of America's youth. Because now

1036
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: TikTok has to passed Instagram and gen Z users. It

1037
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 1: has one hundred million US users, and it's also surpassed

1038
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: YouTube and watch times basically time spent on the app,

1039
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: So just the past three years alone, having data on

1040
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: that for China is huge, And I'm just curious. This

1041
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 1: is a difficult question for you because TikTok is how

1042
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: you got to the White House. Like, what's your personal

1043
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 1: take on whether or not TikTok should be allowed in

1044
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah, so it is an interesting situation

1045
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: of the app has a lot of pros and cons.

1046
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: The app has basically one aided my life and career

1047
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But I remember back in

1048
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: summer twenty twenty when Trump had announced the possible ban,

1049
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: I felt indifferent in the way that I do now,

1050
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: not in different in the way that I don't care.

1051
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,959
Speaker 1: I care a lot. I'm fascinated by all this stuff,

1052
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: and I feel strongly about a lot of different parts

1053
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: of it. But it was one of those things where

1054
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: I can't yet tell if it is a net positive

1055
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 1: or net negative on humanity, and in the US, I

1056
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: honestly sway towards net negative. So when it comes to

1057
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: privacy concerns, I a one hundred percent honestly agree with

1058
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: the ban on TikTok because in the way that WhatsApp, Facebook, Google,

1059
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: and YouTube are all not allowed in China. It's like

1060
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: the great firewall. Apps like we chat and like TikTok

1061
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: that have huge US user bases are still allowed here

1062
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: in those two apps were what Trump was trying to

1063
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: get rid of in the US. When people try to

1064
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: take the route of the psychological effects of TikTok, that's

1065
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: when I'm have a little bit of pushback because you

1066
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: see Instagram and you see YouTube trying to copy exactly

1067
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: what TikTok is doing because they are winning the attention economy.

1068
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: So even if TikTok gets banned, those psychological effects are

1069
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: going to end up trickling into those apps as well.

1070
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: So then we get into the conversation of, oh, are

1071
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: we going to ban bottomless speeds in the US, are

1072
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: we going to have opening and closing hours on social media?

1073
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: All of these different things. But when it comes to

1074
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: the privacy commerce stations, I completely understand why we would

1075
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: ban TikTok in the US. I like the way you

1076
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: put it in terms of delineating between those like psychological

1077
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: effects attention to kind of debates and the actual who

1078
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: owns and operates and controls this company bit because something

1079
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: that you see people say all the time is like,

1080
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: wait a second, Like Facebook does all sorts of things too,

1081
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: so it does cut whatever Microsoft's advice Snapchat. The key

1082
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: difference though is that these are largely speaking American companies

1083
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: and know their global companies, but they're also American companies

1084
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: and are subject to US laws. So for example, if

1085
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: we don't like what's being done with the data privacy,

1086
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: with the opening and closing hours, all those different bits,

1087
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: you can pass laws affecting that. But TikTok that's different.

1088
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: So I think it's just really important to like explain

1089
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,479
Speaker 1: the difference there and just answer. I get why people

1090
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: kind of bring it up because it doesn't seem to

1091
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: make any sense, but there's just a difference in accountability here.

1092
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: And you know, TikTok and China, the relationship that the

1093
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: app in China is called dullen of course, like they

1094
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: have a different app than we have, Like we're not

1095
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: seeing the Chinese users content. But what's been interesting in

1096
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: TikTok in China they have four different things that they

1097
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: are using to target their youth. It's called youth Mode.

1098
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: They have opening and closing hours on TikTok in China

1099
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: four people under sixteen. I believe it's like ten pm

1100
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 1: to six am. No one is allowed to access the app,

1101
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: so it's kind of this collective experience, so kids don't

1102
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: experience follmode together. There is a five second pause between

1103
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: every few videos like get kids out of that hypnosis.

1104
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 1: There is within the algorithm they purposely put in like

1105
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: edutainment STEM content, while in the US, algorithm is very

1106
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: much a reflection of like your subconscious Basically, whatever you're

1107
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: giving the most watched time to is exactly what you're

1108
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: being fed. And also I believe it's like you can

1109
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: only spend forty minutes straight on the app in China,

1110
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: which seems like a no brainer, Like why do you

1111
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: need to be spending more than forty minutes straight on

1112
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: a platform like TikTok Because that hypnosis aspect of things.

1113
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, they're definitely. I mean in China they feel

1114
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: a lot of the same ways that we do about

1115
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: our tech companies and those psychological effects. Sometimes they feel

1116
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: like they can't rain kids in and they can't rain

1117
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: these psychological effects in. I know they also targeted video games,

1118
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: like I think kids right now are only allowed in

1119
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: trying to play. I think it's like two hours of

1120
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: video games over the weekend. I don't know how they

1121
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: enforce that. I'm sure there's a million ways around that,

1122
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: but that's been interesting to see as well. Something I'm

1123
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: curious about that is how what is the real difference,

1124
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: especially in the US, between TikTok and like the Instagram, Slash, snapchat.

1125
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: Even YouTube now has YouTube shorts, so YouTube, in its

1126
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: own way, it's becoming much more like TikTok. So why

1127
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: is it that the American companies have not been able

1128
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: to catch up as well? Oh my god, Like there

1129
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: are so many little cultural elements of TikTok that are

1130
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: just so hyper personalized. So yes, it's more fun in

1131
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: the way something like YouTube, it's really hard to use

1132
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: different audios. So that's what like TikTok started musically, so

1133
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: focused on music, and we know that, Like the stereotype

1134
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: against TikTok was like, well, it's a dancing app. It

1135
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: was more so like that three years ago. So the

1136
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: audience was what really rained people in the algorithm is

1137
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: so hyper personalized, and you're not on platforms like uh,

1138
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: Instagram on platforms even like Twitter, Twitter you follow some

1139
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: more strangers, but Instagram you're mostly following like friends and family,

1140
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: you follow some like maybe make the celebrities or whatever

1141
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: you're super interested in. On the platform like TikTok, you're

1142
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: following all strangers because the for you page that's being

1143
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: paid to you is all strangers content. And also in

1144
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: that way, you internalize that, oh, if I post, it'll

1145
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: probably be only strangers that see my content, and people

1146
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: post really personal stuff on there too, and you know,

1147
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: the more personal people get, the more entertaining that is, right,

1148
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: So there's just so many different cultural elements that make

1149
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: TikTok as big as it is today. It's a core,

1150
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: shorter content, it's a bottomless feed, and we see that

1151
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: its power is moving all the way into like people

1152
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: are using it as a search engine, specifically within fashion, cooking,

1153
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: and traveling, and those may seem like trivial things, but

1154
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: a lot of those things we see how like user

1155
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: behavior starts within those areas and then it trickles into

1156
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: bigger areas of life like politics and everything like that.

1157
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: So to think TikTok could end up being a search engine,

1158
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: it's pretty crazy as well. And I'm curious. You've done

1159
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting reporting on just the implications of

1160
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: what these digital footprint conversations look like for younger people.

1161
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: So we were talking before the recording. My version of

1162
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: this was when I got on Facebook in two thousand

1163
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: and seven, the whole thing, because we were in high

1164
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,919
Speaker 1: school and underage, was like, oh, man, like, I hope

1165
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: that no one tags me in a picture where there's

1166
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: a can of beer in the background. It feels as

1167
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: if we've solved that it would be weird, even in

1168
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: today's context, now that I'm thirty years old and not

1169
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: under twenty one, for someone to just walk around taking

1170
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: pictures of everything and then just uploading them like that

1171
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: really feels like something that wouldn't be chill. It's also

1172
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: way easier to just untag yourself, and it's kind of

1173
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 1: funny even like Facebook, not that I think we'll use

1174
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: Facebook anymore. Facebook will like notify you if, like they

1175
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: think you're in a photo that's been uploaded online because

1176
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: the AI could scan your face. So that's kind of

1177
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 1: how we've dealt with that. What do you think about

1178
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: what the implications are for like, younger people who are

1179
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: coming up on TikTok rather than on Facebook click I did.

1180
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: We're going to see a weird period, I would say,

1181
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: so I'm twenty four right now, so I would say

1182
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 1: probably towards my late twenties early thirties, when most of

1183
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: gen Z's in their twenties and early thirties. We're going

1184
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: to see, I think, is a lot of content that

1185
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: we posted, yeah in high school in our early twenties resurface.

1186
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: I think the first taste of that we saw was

1187
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 1: with Madison Cawborn when those like weird videos that his

1188
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: friends took resurfaced on Twitter. And he's younger, I think

1189
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: he's like twenty six or something. I think there was

1190
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: like a hint of what we're going to see in

1191
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: the future. So you people are posting more personal content

1192
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: than ever on TikTok, which is a weird paradox in

1193
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: the way that it is through the most intimate form

1194
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: of content video, so like you were showing your full identity.

1195
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,959
Speaker 1: It is very much feels off that take in real time.

1196
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: So it's this weird paradox, but it has to do

1197
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 1: with feeling like only strangers are going to see your

1198
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: content internally, So we're going to see a lot of

1199
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: content arise. And it's weird in the way that we're

1200
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, this data and TikTok situation, because

1201
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: there was an article that came out a few days

1202
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: ago as well that the FBI has access to like

1203
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: deleted TikTok videos. They're able to inquire about that to

1204
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: utilize it in different situations. And the thought that even

1205
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: your drafts, again, things that you might not have intended

1206
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,479
Speaker 1: to ever put out, is also considered data and that's

1207
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: probably even way more personal than things that you actually

1208
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: put out, and that is able to be accessed by people.

1209
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: Are we going to see weaponization of that? Are we

1210
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 1: going to see you know, that being low key planted

1211
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: in certain areas when gen Z gets into politics and

1212
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 1: is you know, running for different offices, like, are we

1213
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: going to see those things arise? I think in that

1214
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 1: those situations there's going to be an element element of

1215
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: like empathy or even dilution because we're going to be

1216
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: right now see so much with cancel culture, but a

1217
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: lot of us are realizing the culture changes so much

1218
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: every five years. Something that we think is so normal

1219
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: now is probably going to be looked at as insane

1220
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: in five ten years. Also, we changed so much year

1221
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: to year, So I think there's going to be some

1222
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 1: empathy amongst our generation because we're all going to have

1223
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 1: that trail. But there's definitely gonna be a few years

1224
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: where it's going to be really interesting, entertaining, crazy to

1225
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: watch it unfold. Yeah, So just to sum everything up,

1226
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: obviously you're not a policy maker, so you can't perfectly

1227
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: predict whether or not these continual data leaks basically the

1228
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 1: quote unquote nightmare scenario that was really warned about. You're

1229
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: not going to precicure that will change things. But I'm curious,

1230
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 1: how do you think this tension is going to continue

1231
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: to play out? Like? Are we just going to probably

1232
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: keep seeing these instances? Is this going to put a

1233
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: pressure point on policymakers? How do you really see that

1234
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: going I do think it's going to be something that

1235
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: we just like have to go through and push through,

1236
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 1: and it's going to be something I think generation under us,

1237
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: what was like Jen Alpha and even our kids are

1238
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: going to value privacy a lot more because watching that

1239
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 1: type of stuff unfold. I would hope that would be

1240
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 1: the ideal scenario. I think it's just something that for

1241
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: like two, three, four years, We're just going to see

1242
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 1: it and unravel because not even just in terms of

1243
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 1: like people on the back end having our data when

1244
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: you put something out there on on a platform like TikTok,

1245
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,919
Speaker 1: how something can go viral overnight. When you delete something,

1246
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: your hands aren't washed all of a sudden. There are

1247
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: people who downloaded that content because they thought it was

1248
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: entertaining or that they thought it was funny, and they

1249
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: say that to their camera roll. They don't know who

1250
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: you're going to be in the future. They could be

1251
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: going through their camera roll and be like, oh my gosh,

1252
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: that's this person who is in this position now, and

1253
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: I want to resurface this online even though it's deleted,

1254
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: And you know, you lose ownership over your content the

1255
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 1: second you post it, especially on something like TikTok, where

1256
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: it can be seen by again millions thousands overnight, screen

1257
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: recorded again, saved to camera role. So we will said, Jewels,

1258
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: thank you for joining. I know that you're not gonna

1259
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: have to talk about this pretty much forever, because this

1260
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: is always going to be a tension point, especially for

1261
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: the Biden administration. The book My quick thing is I

1262
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 1: suspect the reason why it just hasn't been banned is

1263
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: that because Biden's performing so poorly with young people, they

1264
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: just don't want to add another because look like I

1265
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: support I support the band, I think it is the

1266
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: right policy. Folks in the Biden administration have indicated they

1267
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: agree with that policy much in the same way they

1268
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: continued Trump's tariffs. But I just think at a political level,

1269
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: the last thing you want to add to, just like

1270
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 1: the current youth low point, is really just a TikTok ban.

1271
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: Because let's get real for a second, like this whole

1272
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: serious geopolitical data privacy debate, it's not going to translate

1273
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: to I think everyday voters, especially at least with young people.

1274
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: I suspect like older voters which support the policy, but

1275
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: younger voters who have an enthusiasm issue are not going

1276
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: to be supportive. Obviously. Yeah, I almost feel like I

1277
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 1: might even disagree. It's weird the because people have a

1278
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: very toxic relationship with TikTok, But it more so goes

1279
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 1: back to the psychological effects. A lot of young people,

1280
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: I sense, would feel relief if it was banned, mostly

1281
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: because of the psychological effects, and people just be genuinely

1282
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: addicted to the platform. It's a running joke on the

1283
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 1: TikTok platform of but being addicted to it almost it's

1284
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: become like a meme. But then it goes again to Okay,

1285
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: these other platforms are just trying to copy it. So

1286
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: we'll see. But I agree that a band makes most

1287
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: sense for privacy reasons. Yeah, well, said Julis. Thanks for

1288
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: joining us on breaking points. Thank you so much, Marshall.

1289
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: As if you guys needed any more evidence that the

1290
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 1: Democrats were in trouble for the midterms, we get this,

1291
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: so Jordan Chardan tweets. So the DNC had to move

1292
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,799
Speaker 1: a mayfundraiser with Vice President Kamala Harris to the Fall

1293
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 1: because they quote couldn't sell enough tickets. Tough sledding when

1294
01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 1: even the donors aren't buying what you're selling, So what,

1295
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: the article says. Vice President Kamal Harris was slated toast

1296
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: the Democratic National Committee's major money hauling event, the Annual

1297
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: Women's Leadership Forum, on May twenty fifth and twenty sixth,

1298
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: a natural fit given that she's the highest office holding

1299
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: woman in American history, and when the invites were sent

1300
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 1: out on May fifth, it was hyped as an incredible

1301
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: opportunity to mingle in person after two years of virtual

1302
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 1: events and meetings, but the event was rescheduled at the

1303
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: last minute for autumn, when the event is traditionally held,

1304
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: after the DNC couldn't sell enough tickets. I'm told, wow, Now,

1305
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: this might be because this particular demographic is like extra

1306
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: COVID conscious and they don't want to get COVID. But

1307
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 1: it also might be because there's zero enthusiasm for Democrats

1308
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 1: now and less than zero for Kamala Harris. Tickets for

1309
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 1: the event started two hundred and fifty dollars per head

1310
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,719
Speaker 1: for general admission, and the much coveted photo line slots

1311
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: start at fifteen thousand and top off at fifty thousand.

1312
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: The highest tier tickets in particular weren't moving quickly enough

1313
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: and the organizers needed more time to build interest, emphasizing

1314
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 1: that the event is typically held in the fall, Even

1315
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,799
Speaker 1: though invites were sent out for May twenty fifth, DNC

1316
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 1: spokesperson Daniel Wessel countered that the Vice president is a

1317
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: huge draw. Just in April, she held a fundraising event

1318
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: for US that brought in over one million dollars. Wessell

1319
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: did not give a reason for the rescheduling. Okay, So,

1320
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of stuff to say about this.

1321
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:24,680
Speaker 1: On the one hand, you could say it's a good

1322
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 1: thing because it shows that the donors, that the big

1323
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: money donors are like flaking out and not giving to

1324
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:32,680
Speaker 1: the Democrats. On the one hand, that's god, because I

1325
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 1: don't want any big money donors in politics. But also

1326
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 1: on the other hand, it chose there's so little enthusiasm

1327
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: for Democrats and for VP Kamala Harris and the party

1328
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: that they can't even get their most trusted demographic, which

1329
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 1: is like liberal elite moneyed interests to back them. So

1330
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: I want you to think about this story for a

1331
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 1: second and look at this other story that we got.

1332
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 1: The view host Sonny Hostin Harris Booty Judge twenty twenty

1333
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 1: four ticket would quote obliterate Trump or desantus. Obliterate Trump

1334
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 1: or desantus. I don't know what world this view host

1335
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 1: is living in. I do not know what world she's

1336
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 1: living in now. I don't think Trump is a particularly

1337
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 1: solid candidate for twenty twenty four given everything that's going

1338
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: on with the January sixth Committee, and they're really doing

1339
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: a sufficient job of painting him as what he is,

1340
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 1: which is like a petty authoritarian dictator want to be.

1341
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,240
Speaker 1: And his poll numbers are going down, and only fifteen

1342
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 1: percent of the country wants him to talk about the

1343
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty election, and he can't shut up about the

1344
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: twenty twenty election. So he's not a particularly strong candidate

1345
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty four. But there is no metric by

1346
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 1: which Kamala Harris and or Pete Bootage Edge is a

1347
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: strong candidate for twenty twenty four. Their poll numbers have

1348
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: routinely been below Joe Biden, and Joe Biden is in popular.

1349
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 1: In fact, Joe Biden is a little less popular than

1350
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 1: Trump was at this time in his presidency. So I

1351
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: don't know what world they're living in. I mean, this

1352
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 1: is the liberal elite bubble defined right here. It's amazing

1353
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 1: that anybody would anybody would make such a point. I mean,

1354
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: that's beyond comical. So anyway, I bet that, Look, I honestly,

1355
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,799
Speaker 1: I bet that this thing does sell out in the fall,

1356
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: But that's still not going to be enough to save

1357
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 1: the Democrats from their massive shlacking which is coming in

1358
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 1: the midterms, which by the way, was totally unavoidable. If

1359
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 1: they just did. Solid policy was totally avoidable. If you

1360
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: got two or three parts of build back better through.

1361
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 1: This wouldn't be happening. If you gave people universal pre K,

1362
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: if you gave people elder care, if you lowered prescription

1363
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 1: drug prices, if you expanded Medicare, if you extended the

1364
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 1: child tax credit shit, if you extended unemployment benefits, if

1365
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: you did any of a number of things, this would

1366
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: not be happening. But they didn't do it, and now

1367
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: this is happening, and they're looking in the mirror like, well,

1368
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: hold on, what's wrong with our messaging. It's not your messaging,

1369
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: it's your substance that's the problem.