WEBVTT - NATO’s Rutte Talks Airspace Incursions, Russia-Ukraine War

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Welcome to our Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>audiences across television and radio. A big focus on the

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<v Speaker 1>United Nations General Assembly here in New York, and a

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<v Speaker 1>big focus on the skies over Europe. Joining us right

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<v Speaker 1>now is the Secretary General of NATO, Mark Ruda. Joined

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<v Speaker 1>right now by Bloomberg's editor in chief, John Nicholdwaite.

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<v Speaker 2>John, thank you, mart Ruther, thank you for talking to

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<v Speaker 2>Greenberg once again. Can we begin with all these incursions

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<v Speaker 2>by Russian fighter flight fighter jets, some Russian drones into

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<v Speaker 2>NATO space and Poland, Estonia, Denmark, those sort of areas

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<v Speaker 2>have been hit by this, and we report today that Britain,

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<v Speaker 2>France and Germany have told the Russians that if that

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<v Speaker 2>happened again, NATO, particularly with the jets, would shoot them down.

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<v Speaker 2>That is that your understanding as well, or you don't

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<v Speaker 2>know well.

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<v Speaker 3>The type of this type of messaging should taking place

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<v Speaker 3>all the time, of course informal, so we're not for

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<v Speaker 3>me to comment, of course, but hey, let's face it,

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<v Speaker 3>we have trained and prepared for these situations and our

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<v Speaker 3>fighter jet pilers know exactly what to do for fifty

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<v Speaker 3>years now from the Soviet days. Now is Russia. We

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<v Speaker 3>have had these incursions before. They will assess the danger

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<v Speaker 3>and if the danger is such that they feel they

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<v Speaker 3>really have to take down the plane, then they can.

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<v Speaker 3>But they can also decided that there's no imminent threat,

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<v Speaker 3>and then they will escort them outside of the airspace.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the message has gone through to the extent

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<v Speaker 2>that you don't expect the Russians to do it again.

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<v Speaker 3>But again there's a bit of risk that we're all

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<v Speaker 3>getting now thinking hey, we need new rules or whatever

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<v Speaker 3>the rules are there. We have our military people, our

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<v Speaker 3>military commanders, have all the rules in at the hand,

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<v Speaker 3>have all the authorities they need to deal with these situations.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is not new. We are doing this for

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<v Speaker 3>tens of years, decades, and we have seen this from

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<v Speaker 3>the Russians. It is reckless, it's unacceptable. We're still assessing

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<v Speaker 3>whether the drones are Bodentt and the fighter jets in Estonia,

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<v Speaker 3>whether it was intentional, we don't know yet. Still being assessed,

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<v Speaker 3>of course. With Copenhagen. With Denmark, I spoke with the

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<v Speaker 3>Prime minister this morning. There, we're also still assessing who

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<v Speaker 3>was behind it. Also very worrying what happened there obviously,

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<v Speaker 3>and they're all working on that. But when it comes

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<v Speaker 3>to these fighter jets, that's not new. It's bad, it

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<v Speaker 3>should stop. But our pilers know what to do, and

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<v Speaker 3>if necessary, they can do the ultimate.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a difference, though, isn't the Russian With the fighter jets,

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<v Speaker 2>there seems to be quite a clear policy, as you've said,

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<v Speaker 2>that's been for years, Russian jets should not come into

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<v Speaker 2>NATO space. The drones is much more complicated because there

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<v Speaker 2>tend to be lots of them. They're hard to defend

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<v Speaker 2>against it, and there you seem to have a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of there's the intentionality problem that you pointed out, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>is this on purpose, isn't it? But another big one

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<v Speaker 2>is just having the kit to deal with exactly as

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<v Speaker 2>I understand it, what would happen at the moment is

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<v Speaker 2>you might have to use a very expensive missile to

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<v Speaker 2>shoot down a very cheap drone. Is there a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of kit problem with this as well.

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<v Speaker 3>In the short term, yes, And by the way, I

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<v Speaker 3>was very proud of the destructive pilot last week who

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<v Speaker 3>took down or two weeks ago now, who took down

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<v Speaker 3>these drones in Poland at thirty five pilots, and it

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<v Speaker 3>is exactly what we need to do because first of all,

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<v Speaker 3>we have to prioritize the safe two of our people.

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<v Speaker 3>But you're right, it's not sustainable that you will take

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<v Speaker 3>down one thousand or two thousand dollars costing drones with

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<v Speaker 3>missiles which cost you maybe half a million or a

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<v Speaker 3>million dollars. So this is why our Supreme Adot Commander

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<v Speaker 3>in Europe, together with the colleague working on transformation, all

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<v Speaker 3>of us in NATO are rapidly developing the technologies learning

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<v Speaker 3>from the Ukrainians, and we will start to apply that

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<v Speaker 3>new technology over the coming weeks and months to make

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<v Speaker 3>sure that next to the more traditional way to deal

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<v Speaker 3>with this, we also have this drone interceptor technology at

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<v Speaker 3>our hands.

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<v Speaker 2>No, this is not something you know, you've only done

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<v Speaker 2>it for a year or something you look at you

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<v Speaker 2>look back. Do you think later in some ways been

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<v Speaker 2>slow to react to the new reality of drone warfare.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think so, because we have this joint center

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<v Speaker 3>together with Ukraine j Tech, which is based in Poland,

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<v Speaker 3>where we take all the lessons from the Ukraine war.

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<v Speaker 3>Ukraine being in war is two or three weeks ahead

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<v Speaker 3>of traditions in day at an incredible speed, innovate during warfare,

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<v Speaker 3>so we can learn from them. We will adapt as

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<v Speaker 3>soon as possible, and in the meantime, if there are

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<v Speaker 3>drones in our airspace, we will still take them down.

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<v Speaker 3>We've all protect our people.

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<v Speaker 2>It's part of the problem here that actually is Ukraine,

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<v Speaker 2>which is really good at making these things, but they're

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<v Speaker 2>the people who most need them, so for the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of NATO it's hard to source this kind of kit.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the Ukrainians are proud, of course what they can

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<v Speaker 3>do and also to help us supplying that technology, which

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<v Speaker 3>you're right, of course, after prioritize their own safety. But

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<v Speaker 3>we have also other ways, of course to get our

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<v Speaker 3>hands on this type of kit, so we're working on that,

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<v Speaker 3>also developing SARIA the technology ourselves. So this is all

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<v Speaker 3>being processed now, so we we are really stepping up,

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<v Speaker 3>and this is why we launched Eastern Centry last week.

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<v Speaker 3>Eastern cent he's there to move from policing to from

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<v Speaker 3>air policing to air defense on the entire Eastern flank

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<v Speaker 3>with the traditional means, but also figuring in as soon

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<v Speaker 3>as possible these latest anti drone technologies.

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<v Speaker 2>Quite another thing which happened this week because that Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump seemed to well, he did change tag and he

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly said it's possible for Ukraine to get back all

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<v Speaker 2>its land. What do you what do you read into that?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think that was a fantastic post he made

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<v Speaker 3>two days ago. He mentioned Russia as a he called

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<v Speaker 3>him a paper tiger. And then the Russians for a

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<v Speaker 3>full day. Have you seen that a full day saying

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<v Speaker 3>we are a lot of paper tiger. We are there. Hey,

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<v Speaker 3>if you are a bear, everybody will notice, so you

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<v Speaker 3>don't have to explain that. So probably they are not.

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<v Speaker 3>Probably the President was right, and it's and and it

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<v Speaker 3>hit the nerve in the Kremlin and potentially at the

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<v Speaker 3>highest levels in the Kremlin.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's an issue there with the ask time I looked.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Russia is still advancing on the ground in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 3>Very slowly, very slowly, and they have lost by now

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<v Speaker 3>a million people that's are seriously wounded. They lose now

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<v Speaker 3>in one month, for the Soviet Union lost in ten

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<v Speaker 3>years in Afghanistan. This is what now the Russians are

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<v Speaker 3>losing in one month. This is not sustainable with only

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<v Speaker 3>very little to show for it. The problem is that

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<v Speaker 3>whilst they are not competent to get this done, that

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<v Speaker 3>still if you have a president willing to sacrifice one

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<v Speaker 3>million people, we have to prepare ourselves for what they

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<v Speaker 3>are willing to do without lots of success, but still

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<v Speaker 3>trying to create difficulties for us. And first of all,

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<v Speaker 3>we have to make sure that Ukraine is in the

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<v Speaker 3>strongest possible position. So I really command what the president

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<v Speaker 3>for President Trump is doing. He also opened the floodgates,

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<v Speaker 3>as you know a couple of months ago of you

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<v Speaker 3>as kid both lethal and nonle sol into Ukraine, paid

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<v Speaker 3>for by allies. So we're working on that. This is

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<v Speaker 3>crucial stuff Ukraine needs. So in that sense, I think us,

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<v Speaker 3>the President, Europe, NATO working together is a strong signal.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the weakest point of Russia actually the economy, with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of reports coming out saying the Russian economy

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<v Speaker 2>is not We've done some the Russian economy doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 2>as strong. Do you think there is a sense that

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<v Speaker 2>Putin is perhaps stronger on the battlefield than he is economically, and.

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<v Speaker 3>He's not so in the battlefield either, because if you

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<v Speaker 3>have so many losses and you only gain a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of square miles a week. I mean, nothing to show

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<v Speaker 3>for it, but I think you're absolutely right. The economy

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<v Speaker 3>is in difficulty. We see the long lines now waiting

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<v Speaker 3>at the gasoline stations to fill up the cars. We

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<v Speaker 3>have seen the Russians deciding to bring down the exports

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<v Speaker 3>to it comes like India and Trachea, oil and gas,

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<v Speaker 3>et cetera. And this is also because Ukrainians are successful

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<v Speaker 3>in tracket seeing the Russian oil infrastructure and it is

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<v Speaker 3>famously difficult to get it oil refinery up running again

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<v Speaker 3>after that has been hit by missile or drones. So

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<v Speaker 3>the Ukrainians are good at this. I always thought that

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<v Speaker 3>they had this fantastic central banker somehow in Russia who

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<v Speaker 3>was able to paper over the problems, but I think

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<v Speaker 3>she cannot any longer. And it's now the cracks are

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<v Speaker 3>showing and the Russian economy is in difficulty. You're totally right.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been talk of, you know, from the Ukrainian side

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<v Speaker 2>of the Russian should prepare to live in shelters like

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<v Speaker 2>they do. Does that again, Russian the Russians should prepare

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<v Speaker 2>to live in shelters, if you know, the NATO starts

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<v Speaker 2>applying more long range weapons that Ukraine would be able

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<v Speaker 2>to hit deeper into into Russia.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I should not speculate about that, I think in

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<v Speaker 3>public media. But obviously we are in constant discussion the Americans,

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<v Speaker 3>Europe and allies with the Ukrainians how can we help

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<v Speaker 3>you best, and all options are always on the table,

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<v Speaker 3>But obviously we should not speak so much about that.

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<v Speaker 2>In publicy worry it all just on the battlefield. Going

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<v Speaker 2>back to that, yes, it's very obvious the Russians are

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<v Speaker 2>losing huge amounts of people, but they still have managed

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<v Speaker 2>to replenish them. The Ukrainians have that problem with the

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<v Speaker 2>amount of material they have, partly the weapons you've talked about,

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<v Speaker 2>also getting enough people to go forward. That problem about

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<v Speaker 2>recruiting young soldiers. This is the first time ever anyone's

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<v Speaker 2>ever tried to fight a war with old soldiers.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but first of all it comes to the weapons.

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<v Speaker 3>With the US supply the Czech ammunition initiative, you have

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<v Speaker 3>the dangers in Lithuanians who started this initiative to directly

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<v Speaker 3>sourced from the Ukrainian defense industrial base. There are some

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<v Speaker 3>indicators now saying that Ukrainians are able to up to

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<v Speaker 3>fifty sixty percent a source what they need from their

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<v Speaker 3>own defense in your base. And then on the people

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<v Speaker 3>side I discuss there's also as the president President Selenski

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<v Speaker 3>this week again they're not doing that bad. They really

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<v Speaker 3>are catching up and keeping close close to what the

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<v Speaker 3>Russians are doing. Russians are losing four to five times

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<v Speaker 3>more people on the battlefield than the Ukrainians are because

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<v Speaker 3>of this crazy way of warfare the Russians have decided

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<v Speaker 3>to do.

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<v Speaker 2>That's another big thing that happened this week with Frederick

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<v Speaker 2>Mertz just said that it's fine to take maybe one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty billion euros of frozen Russian assets, which

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<v Speaker 2>hitherto Germany has been pretty reluctant to touch, to use

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<v Speaker 2>that to help finance. Is that a game changer?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes? I think I was reading that opinion piece. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it was on the FT website and by Thesible Competitor. Yeah, sorry, sorry,

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<v Speaker 3>but next time people will no doubt publish it the

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<v Speaker 3>Economy History or SORR yeah Bloomberg and no, no, no doubt.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think it is an important step I must

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<v Speaker 3>say in the division of labor between NATO and the EU.

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<v Speaker 3>This is more being delta than the EU side. Of course,

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<v Speaker 3>I have a very close relationship with originavon the LAI,

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<v Speaker 3>the President's up and Commission, so this is not something

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<v Speaker 3>I'm dealing with every day, the Russian assets, but of

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<v Speaker 3>course I followed it closely and I thought, hey, this

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<v Speaker 3>is a development and this is probably a way to

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<v Speaker 3>work around some of the illegal problems to get access

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<v Speaker 3>to this.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you spend a lot of your time

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<v Speaker 2>trying to do is that that interconnection between money which

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<v Speaker 2>Ukraine needs, weapons which then as you said countless times,

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<v Speaker 2>are all spread spread out across different parts of NATO.

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<v Speaker 2>And then finally that question of the front line.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean in the endfl what we need to

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<v Speaker 3>achieve is for Ukraine to sustain in the fight and

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<v Speaker 3>to be in the best possible position when peace stolls

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<v Speaker 3>would start. That is weapons, that's money. Is of course

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<v Speaker 3>making sure that when it comes to the pressure on

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<v Speaker 3>the Russians that when it comes to sanctional that is

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<v Speaker 3>also more on the eosite than NATO. But I'm really

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<v Speaker 3>impressed by what persons from the Layer is doing now

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<v Speaker 3>working with Security Best and the White House, but putting

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<v Speaker 3>more pressure on the Chinese. Of course, we have the

0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:02.280
<v Speaker 3>discussion on cutting off the oil supply from Russia into Hungary, Turkey, Slovakia.

0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.120
<v Speaker 3>Not easy, but all working on it because we want

0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:09.240
<v Speaker 3>to make sure that Russians don't have access to either

0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.240
<v Speaker 3>any of these sources of income. By the way, the

0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.640
<v Speaker 3>shadow fleet also important, So we're working on all that.

0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.480
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes nature and the leads sometimes to EU and E

0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.560
<v Speaker 3>leeds and also in close conjunction with the personal Trump

0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and his team.

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.720
<v Speaker 2>One sort of flip side of what Trump said this

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.760
<v Speaker 2>week becase it would seem that a peace steel in

0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Ukraine as far away as ever is that you're reading

0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of it.

0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.640
<v Speaker 3>The problem is, of course that he and I was

0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 3>I'm really commended for that. He broke the deathlockuist put In,

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.960
<v Speaker 3>he brought, he started to dialogue with him, He had

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:44.800
<v Speaker 3>the meeting in Alaska testing him. But somehow we have

0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.120
<v Speaker 3>not been able yet to get them to the table.

0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.600
<v Speaker 3>And there should be a table not in Russia, but

0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.800
<v Speaker 3>somewhere in the world where at least Celensky and Putting

0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.640
<v Speaker 3>are sitting down and discussing the difficult issues how to

0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.360
<v Speaker 3>end the war. And Celensky is willing to do that.

0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 3>Put In clearly is not, and that means that we

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.199
<v Speaker 3>have to up the pressure on the Russians to make

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.679
<v Speaker 3>sure that he will come to the table. And I'm

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.680
<v Speaker 3>fairly confident we will get there at a certain moment,

0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 3>and the President's efforts here are extremely important.

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.880
<v Speaker 2>You've been very good at praising and keeping Donald Trump

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.440
<v Speaker 2>on side. Do you think that you've changed fundamentally the

0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 2>way he looks at NATO? I mean, people, that was

0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:24.680
<v Speaker 2>when you came in. There were a lot of doubts

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.320
<v Speaker 2>and again Stoltenberg was a very good leader as well,

0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.200
<v Speaker 2>but there were a lot of doubts about how Trump

0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 2>saw NATO. Do you think fundamentally now he is committed

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 2>to NATO in a way that.

0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.080
<v Speaker 3>You know it was not. It was absolutely clear what

0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.200
<v Speaker 3>he felt. I mean, I was Prime Minister when he

0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.120
<v Speaker 3>was forty five and we discussed as many times. He

0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.560
<v Speaker 3>was always in favor of NATO and m forty seven

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.240
<v Speaker 3>I was a favor of NATO. But he has an expectation.

0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 3>Expectation was, hey, you guys in Europe, you have to

0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 3>spend the same year spending Stalton were He started this

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 3>process in NATO assessing what do we need to be

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.200
<v Speaker 3>able to do if Article five would ever be triggered.

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 3>This is called the capability targets each country what do

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.000
<v Speaker 3>they have to deliver? This led to the three point

0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.000
<v Speaker 3>five heart defense spending one point five DEFENI later spending

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.520
<v Speaker 3>this complete this total of five percent. When Indy Hague,

0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.319
<v Speaker 3>under President Trump's leadership, Native was able to agree on

0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 3>this five percent, This irtant was dumb, was gone. This

0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 3>was there since eiz an Hour. He was able to

0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 3>solve it, so I think it was one of his

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.760
<v Speaker 3>biggest foreign policy successes. So he also got it coming

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.520
<v Speaker 3>to NATO. But this irtant, this big pebble in the shoe,

0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 3>was there and it had to be removed.

0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I think arguably NATO is as strong as it has

0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.920
<v Speaker 2>been for several decades since the end of the Cold War.

0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:41.880
<v Speaker 2>If you look at all the things we've talked about,

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.320
<v Speaker 2>you have countries you know, saying they will take on

0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Russian train planes coming to their space. You have people

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 2>pushing up towards that five percent target. You have a

0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.440
<v Speaker 2>much more committed Europe in terms of what is happening.

0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Do you feel much more confident about NATO? Now?

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.320
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I always thought com about NATO, but I think

0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:06.120
<v Speaker 3>President Trump coming into office has really helped because I

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 3>spoke to many countries in November December, not yet on

0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.400
<v Speaker 3>two percent, to all two percent from twenty fourteen. We

0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.960
<v Speaker 3>had to achieve by twenty four to twenty five. We

0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.280
<v Speaker 3>told me, oh, difficult, Mark, I'm not sure we can

0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.320
<v Speaker 3>get How do we do this? And then Trump came

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 3>into office in January and from Farauary in March the

0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.400
<v Speaker 3>phone calls came in all countries, not in two percent,

0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 3>So how are we going to get to two percent

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 3>this year? And then we came to the Natro summit

0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.240
<v Speaker 3>and we were able with thirty two countries to agree

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 3>on the five percent, not only because Trump needed this

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.320
<v Speaker 3>as a win to show to the American people that

0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 3>we are equalizing the spending between the US and Europe,

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.080
<v Speaker 3>but also in Europe and in the US and in

0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.480
<v Speaker 3>Canada because we have to defend ourselves against the Russian threat.

0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 3>The Chinese challenge is there, and we cannot do that

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 3>to two percent. We have to get to that five percent.

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Rich It's very generous and perhaps shrewd of you to

0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>share the credit for this with President Trump. But thank

0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>you for talking to Limberg.

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.320
<v Speaker 3>Thanks you over having me. It is a real pleasure