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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Welcome to our Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: audiences across television and radio. A big focus on the

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Speaker 1: United Nations General Assembly here in New York, and a

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Speaker 1: big focus on the skies over Europe. Joining us right

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Speaker 1: now is the Secretary General of NATO, Mark Ruda. Joined

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Speaker 1: right now by Bloomberg's editor in chief, John Nicholdwaite.

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Speaker 2: John, thank you, mart Ruther, thank you for talking to

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Speaker 2: Greenberg once again. Can we begin with all these incursions

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Speaker 2: by Russian fighter flight fighter jets, some Russian drones into

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Speaker 2: NATO space and Poland, Estonia, Denmark, those sort of areas

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Speaker 2: have been hit by this, and we report today that Britain,

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Speaker 2: France and Germany have told the Russians that if that

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Speaker 2: happened again, NATO, particularly with the jets, would shoot them down.

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Speaker 2: That is that your understanding as well, or you don't

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Speaker 2: know well.

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Speaker 3: The type of this type of messaging should taking place

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Speaker 3: all the time, of course informal, so we're not for

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Speaker 3: me to comment, of course, but hey, let's face it,

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Speaker 3: we have trained and prepared for these situations and our

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Speaker 3: fighter jet pilers know exactly what to do for fifty

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Speaker 3: years now from the Soviet days. Now is Russia. We

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Speaker 3: have had these incursions before. They will assess the danger

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Speaker 3: and if the danger is such that they feel they

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Speaker 3: really have to take down the plane, then they can.

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Speaker 3: But they can also decided that there's no imminent threat,

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Speaker 3: and then they will escort them outside of the airspace.

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Speaker 2: I think the message has gone through to the extent

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Speaker 2: that you don't expect the Russians to do it again.

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Speaker 3: But again there's a bit of risk that we're all

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Speaker 3: getting now thinking hey, we need new rules or whatever

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Speaker 3: the rules are there. We have our military people, our

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Speaker 3: military commanders, have all the rules in at the hand,

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Speaker 3: have all the authorities they need to deal with these situations.

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Speaker 3: And this is not new. We are doing this for

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Speaker 3: tens of years, decades, and we have seen this from

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Speaker 3: the Russians. It is reckless, it's unacceptable. We're still assessing

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Speaker 3: whether the drones are Bodentt and the fighter jets in Estonia,

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Speaker 3: whether it was intentional, we don't know yet. Still being assessed,

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Speaker 3: of course. With Copenhagen. With Denmark, I spoke with the

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Speaker 3: Prime minister this morning. There, we're also still assessing who

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Speaker 3: was behind it. Also very worrying what happened there obviously,

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Speaker 3: and they're all working on that. But when it comes

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Speaker 3: to these fighter jets, that's not new. It's bad, it

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Speaker 3: should stop. But our pilers know what to do, and

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Speaker 3: if necessary, they can do the ultimate.

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Speaker 2: It's a difference, though, isn't the Russian With the fighter jets,

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Speaker 2: there seems to be quite a clear policy, as you've said,

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Speaker 2: that's been for years, Russian jets should not come into

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Speaker 2: NATO space. The drones is much more complicated because there

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Speaker 2: tend to be lots of them. They're hard to defend

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Speaker 2: against it, and there you seem to have a kind

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Speaker 2: of there's the intentionality problem that you pointed out, you know,

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Speaker 2: is this on purpose, isn't it? But another big one

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Speaker 2: is just having the kit to deal with exactly as

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Speaker 2: I understand it, what would happen at the moment is

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Speaker 2: you might have to use a very expensive missile to

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Speaker 2: shoot down a very cheap drone. Is there a kind

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Speaker 2: of kit problem with this as well.

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Speaker 3: In the short term, yes, And by the way, I

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Speaker 3: was very proud of the destructive pilot last week who

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Speaker 3: took down or two weeks ago now, who took down

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Speaker 3: these drones in Poland at thirty five pilots, and it

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Speaker 3: is exactly what we need to do because first of all,

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Speaker 3: we have to prioritize the safe two of our people.

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Speaker 3: But you're right, it's not sustainable that you will take

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Speaker 3: down one thousand or two thousand dollars costing drones with

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Speaker 3: missiles which cost you maybe half a million or a

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Speaker 3: million dollars. So this is why our Supreme Adot Commander

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Speaker 3: in Europe, together with the colleague working on transformation, all

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Speaker 3: of us in NATO are rapidly developing the technologies learning

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Speaker 3: from the Ukrainians, and we will start to apply that

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Speaker 3: new technology over the coming weeks and months to make

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Speaker 3: sure that next to the more traditional way to deal

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Speaker 3: with this, we also have this drone interceptor technology at

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Speaker 3: our hands.

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Speaker 2: No, this is not something you know, you've only done

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Speaker 2: it for a year or something you look at you

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Speaker 2: look back. Do you think later in some ways been

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Speaker 2: slow to react to the new reality of drone warfare.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so, because we have this joint center

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Speaker 3: together with Ukraine j Tech, which is based in Poland,

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Speaker 3: where we take all the lessons from the Ukraine war.

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Speaker 3: Ukraine being in war is two or three weeks ahead

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Speaker 3: of traditions in day at an incredible speed, innovate during warfare,

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Speaker 3: so we can learn from them. We will adapt as

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Speaker 3: soon as possible, and in the meantime, if there are

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Speaker 3: drones in our airspace, we will still take them down.

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Speaker 3: We've all protect our people.

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Speaker 2: It's part of the problem here that actually is Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: which is really good at making these things, but they're

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Speaker 2: the people who most need them, so for the rest

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Speaker 2: of NATO it's hard to source this kind of kit.

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Speaker 3: Well, the Ukrainians are proud, of course what they can

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Speaker 3: do and also to help us supplying that technology, which

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Speaker 3: you're right, of course, after prioritize their own safety. But

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Speaker 3: we have also other ways, of course to get our

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Speaker 3: hands on this type of kit, so we're working on that,

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Speaker 3: also developing SARIA the technology ourselves. So this is all

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Speaker 3: being processed now, so we we are really stepping up,

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Speaker 3: and this is why we launched Eastern Centry last week.

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Speaker 3: Eastern cent he's there to move from policing to from

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Speaker 3: air policing to air defense on the entire Eastern flank

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Speaker 3: with the traditional means, but also figuring in as soon

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Speaker 3: as possible these latest anti drone technologies.

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Speaker 2: Quite another thing which happened this week because that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump seemed to well, he did change tag and he

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Speaker 2: suddenly said it's possible for Ukraine to get back all

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Speaker 2: its land. What do you what do you read into that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that was a fantastic post he made

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Speaker 3: two days ago. He mentioned Russia as a he called

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Speaker 3: him a paper tiger. And then the Russians for a

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Speaker 3: full day. Have you seen that a full day saying

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Speaker 3: we are a lot of paper tiger. We are there. Hey,

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Speaker 3: if you are a bear, everybody will notice, so you

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Speaker 3: don't have to explain that. So probably they are not.

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Speaker 3: Probably the President was right, and it's and and it

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Speaker 3: hit the nerve in the Kremlin and potentially at the

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Speaker 3: highest levels in the Kremlin.

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Speaker 2: But there's an issue there with the ask time I looked.

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Speaker 2: You know, Russia is still advancing on the ground in Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: Very slowly, very slowly, and they have lost by now

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Speaker 3: a million people that's are seriously wounded. They lose now

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Speaker 3: in one month, for the Soviet Union lost in ten

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Speaker 3: years in Afghanistan. This is what now the Russians are

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Speaker 3: losing in one month. This is not sustainable with only

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Speaker 3: very little to show for it. The problem is that

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Speaker 3: whilst they are not competent to get this done, that

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Speaker 3: still if you have a president willing to sacrifice one

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Speaker 3: million people, we have to prepare ourselves for what they

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Speaker 3: are willing to do without lots of success, but still

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Speaker 3: trying to create difficulties for us. And first of all,

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Speaker 3: we have to make sure that Ukraine is in the

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Speaker 3: strongest possible position. So I really command what the president

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Speaker 3: for President Trump is doing. He also opened the floodgates,

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Speaker 3: as you know a couple of months ago of you

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Speaker 3: as kid both lethal and nonle sol into Ukraine, paid

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Speaker 3: for by allies. So we're working on that. This is

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Speaker 3: crucial stuff Ukraine needs. So in that sense, I think us,

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Speaker 3: the President, Europe, NATO working together is a strong signal.

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Speaker 2: It's the weakest point of Russia actually the economy, with

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Speaker 2: a lot of reports coming out saying the Russian economy

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Speaker 2: is not We've done some the Russian economy doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: as strong. Do you think there is a sense that

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Speaker 2: Putin is perhaps stronger on the battlefield than he is economically, and.

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Speaker 3: He's not so in the battlefield either, because if you

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Speaker 3: have so many losses and you only gain a couple

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Speaker 3: of square miles a week. I mean, nothing to show

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Speaker 3: for it, but I think you're absolutely right. The economy

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Speaker 3: is in difficulty. We see the long lines now waiting

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Speaker 3: at the gasoline stations to fill up the cars. We

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Speaker 3: have seen the Russians deciding to bring down the exports

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Speaker 3: to it comes like India and Trachea, oil and gas,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. And this is also because Ukrainians are successful

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Speaker 3: in tracket seeing the Russian oil infrastructure and it is

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Speaker 3: famously difficult to get it oil refinery up running again

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Speaker 3: after that has been hit by missile or drones. So

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Speaker 3: the Ukrainians are good at this. I always thought that

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Speaker 3: they had this fantastic central banker somehow in Russia who

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Speaker 3: was able to paper over the problems, but I think

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Speaker 3: she cannot any longer. And it's now the cracks are

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Speaker 3: showing and the Russian economy is in difficulty. You're totally right.

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Speaker 2: There's been talk of, you know, from the Ukrainian side

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Speaker 2: of the Russian should prepare to live in shelters like

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Speaker 2: they do. Does that again, Russian the Russians should prepare

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Speaker 2: to live in shelters, if you know, the NATO starts

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Speaker 2: applying more long range weapons that Ukraine would be able

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Speaker 2: to hit deeper into into Russia.

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Speaker 3: Well, I should not speculate about that, I think in

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Speaker 3: public media. But obviously we are in constant discussion the Americans,

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Speaker 3: Europe and allies with the Ukrainians how can we help

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Speaker 3: you best, and all options are always on the table,

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Speaker 3: But obviously we should not speak so much about that.

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Speaker 2: In publicy worry it all just on the battlefield. Going

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Speaker 2: back to that, yes, it's very obvious the Russians are

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Speaker 2: losing huge amounts of people, but they still have managed

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Speaker 2: to replenish them. The Ukrainians have that problem with the

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Speaker 2: amount of material they have, partly the weapons you've talked about,

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Speaker 2: also getting enough people to go forward. That problem about

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Speaker 2: recruiting young soldiers. This is the first time ever anyone's

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Speaker 2: ever tried to fight a war with old soldiers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but first of all it comes to the weapons.

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Speaker 3: With the US supply the Czech ammunition initiative, you have

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Speaker 3: the dangers in Lithuanians who started this initiative to directly

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Speaker 3: sourced from the Ukrainian defense industrial base. There are some

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Speaker 3: indicators now saying that Ukrainians are able to up to

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Speaker 3: fifty sixty percent a source what they need from their

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Speaker 3: own defense in your base. And then on the people

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Speaker 3: side I discuss there's also as the president President Selenski

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Speaker 3: this week again they're not doing that bad. They really

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Speaker 3: are catching up and keeping close close to what the

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Speaker 3: Russians are doing. Russians are losing four to five times

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Speaker 3: more people on the battlefield than the Ukrainians are because

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Speaker 3: of this crazy way of warfare the Russians have decided

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 2: That's another big thing that happened this week with Frederick

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Speaker 2: Mertz just said that it's fine to take maybe one

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty billion euros of frozen Russian assets, which

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Speaker 2: hitherto Germany has been pretty reluctant to touch, to use

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Speaker 2: that to help finance. Is that a game changer?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I think I was reading that opinion piece. I

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Speaker 3: think it was on the FT website and by Thesible Competitor. Yeah, sorry, sorry,

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Speaker 3: but next time people will no doubt publish it the

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Speaker 3: Economy History or SORR yeah Bloomberg and no, no, no doubt.

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Speaker 3: But I think it is an important step I must

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Speaker 3: say in the division of labor between NATO and the EU.

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Speaker 3: This is more being delta than the EU side. Of course,

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Speaker 3: I have a very close relationship with originavon the LAI,

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Speaker 3: the President's up and Commission, so this is not something

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Speaker 3: I'm dealing with every day, the Russian assets, but of

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Speaker 3: course I followed it closely and I thought, hey, this

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Speaker 3: is a development and this is probably a way to

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Speaker 3: work around some of the illegal problems to get access

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Speaker 3: to this.

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Speaker 2: Is that what you spend a lot of your time

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Speaker 2: trying to do is that that interconnection between money which

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Speaker 2: Ukraine needs, weapons which then as you said countless times,

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Speaker 2: are all spread spread out across different parts of NATO.

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Speaker 2: And then finally that question of the front line.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean in the endfl what we need to

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Speaker 3: achieve is for Ukraine to sustain in the fight and

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Speaker 3: to be in the best possible position when peace stolls

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Speaker 3: would start. That is weapons, that's money. Is of course

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Speaker 3: making sure that when it comes to the pressure on

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Speaker 3: the Russians that when it comes to sanctional that is

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Speaker 3: also more on the eosite than NATO. But I'm really

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Speaker 3: impressed by what persons from the Layer is doing now

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Speaker 3: working with Security Best and the White House, but putting

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Speaker 3: more pressure on the Chinese. Of course, we have the

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Speaker 3: discussion on cutting off the oil supply from Russia into Hungary, Turkey, Slovakia.

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Speaker 3: Not easy, but all working on it because we want

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Speaker 3: to make sure that Russians don't have access to either

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Speaker 3: any of these sources of income. By the way, the

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Speaker 3: shadow fleet also important, So we're working on all that.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes nature and the leads sometimes to EU and E

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Speaker 3: leeds and also in close conjunction with the personal Trump

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Speaker 3: and his team.

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Speaker 2: One sort of flip side of what Trump said this

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Speaker 2: week becase it would seem that a peace steel in

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Speaker 2: Ukraine as far away as ever is that you're reading

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 3: The problem is, of course that he and I was

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Speaker 3: I'm really commended for that. He broke the deathlockuist put In,

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Speaker 3: he brought, he started to dialogue with him, He had

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Speaker 3: the meeting in Alaska testing him. But somehow we have

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Speaker 3: not been able yet to get them to the table.

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Speaker 3: And there should be a table not in Russia, but

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Speaker 3: somewhere in the world where at least Celensky and Putting

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Speaker 3: are sitting down and discussing the difficult issues how to

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Speaker 3: end the war. And Celensky is willing to do that.

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Speaker 3: Put In clearly is not, and that means that we

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Speaker 3: have to up the pressure on the Russians to make

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Speaker 3: sure that he will come to the table. And I'm

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Speaker 3: fairly confident we will get there at a certain moment,

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Speaker 3: and the President's efforts here are extremely important.

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Speaker 2: You've been very good at praising and keeping Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: on side. Do you think that you've changed fundamentally the

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Speaker 2: way he looks at NATO? I mean, people, that was

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Speaker 2: when you came in. There were a lot of doubts

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Speaker 2: and again Stoltenberg was a very good leader as well,

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Speaker 2: but there were a lot of doubts about how Trump

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Speaker 2: saw NATO. Do you think fundamentally now he is committed

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Speaker 2: to NATO in a way that.

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Speaker 3: You know it was not. It was absolutely clear what

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Speaker 3: he felt. I mean, I was Prime Minister when he

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Speaker 3: was forty five and we discussed as many times. He

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Speaker 3: was always in favor of NATO and m forty seven

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Speaker 3: I was a favor of NATO. But he has an expectation.

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Speaker 3: Expectation was, hey, you guys in Europe, you have to

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Speaker 3: spend the same year spending Stalton were He started this

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Speaker 3: process in NATO assessing what do we need to be

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Speaker 3: able to do if Article five would ever be triggered.

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Speaker 3: This is called the capability targets each country what do

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Speaker 3: they have to deliver? This led to the three point

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Speaker 3: five heart defense spending one point five DEFENI later spending

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Speaker 3: this complete this total of five percent. When Indy Hague,

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Speaker 3: under President Trump's leadership, Native was able to agree on

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Speaker 3: this five percent, This irtant was dumb, was gone. This

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Speaker 3: was there since eiz an Hour. He was able to

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Speaker 3: solve it, so I think it was one of his

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Speaker 3: biggest foreign policy successes. So he also got it coming

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Speaker 3: to NATO. But this irtant, this big pebble in the shoe,

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Speaker 3: was there and it had to be removed.

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Speaker 2: I think arguably NATO is as strong as it has

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Speaker 2: been for several decades since the end of the Cold War.

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Speaker 2: If you look at all the things we've talked about,

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Speaker 2: you have countries you know, saying they will take on

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Speaker 2: Russian train planes coming to their space. You have people

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Speaker 2: pushing up towards that five percent target. You have a

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Speaker 2: much more committed Europe in terms of what is happening.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel much more confident about NATO? Now?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I always thought com about NATO, but I think

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Speaker 3: President Trump coming into office has really helped because I

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Speaker 3: spoke to many countries in November December, not yet on

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Speaker 3: two percent, to all two percent from twenty fourteen. We

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Speaker 3: had to achieve by twenty four to twenty five. We

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Speaker 3: told me, oh, difficult, Mark, I'm not sure we can

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Speaker 3: get How do we do this? And then Trump came

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Speaker 3: into office in January and from Farauary in March the

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Speaker 3: phone calls came in all countries, not in two percent,

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Speaker 3: So how are we going to get to two percent

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Speaker 3: this year? And then we came to the Natro summit

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Speaker 3: and we were able with thirty two countries to agree

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Speaker 3: on the five percent, not only because Trump needed this

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Speaker 3: as a win to show to the American people that

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Speaker 3: we are equalizing the spending between the US and Europe,

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Speaker 3: but also in Europe and in the US and in

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Speaker 3: Canada because we have to defend ourselves against the Russian threat.

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Speaker 3: The Chinese challenge is there, and we cannot do that

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Speaker 3: to two percent. We have to get to that five percent.

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Speaker 2: Rich It's very generous and perhaps shrewd of you to

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Speaker 2: share the credit for this with President Trump. But thank

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Speaker 2: you for talking to Limberg.

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Speaker 3: Thanks you over having me. It is a real pleasure