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Speaker 1: M M. Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring

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Speaker 1: conversations with industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm

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Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, business editor of Variety Today. My guest in

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Speaker 1: New York is Peter Bittenbender, CEO of mass Appeal. Mass

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Speaker 1: Appeal is a content centered company that is active in

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Speaker 1: TV and film production, music, creative advertising, and branding. The

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Speaker 1: company is enjoying a burst of attention right now thanks

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Speaker 1: to of Mikes and Men Before Part showtime documentary series

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Speaker 1: that tells the story of hip hop's legendary Wu Tang Clan. Here,

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Speaker 1: Bittenbender discusses how mass Appeal plans to build on the

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Speaker 1: momentum for the company that he relaunched in two thousand

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Speaker 1: thirteen in partnership with rapper Nas and director Sasha Jenkin.

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Speaker 1: Bittenbender is candid about how mass Appeal intends to avoid

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Speaker 1: the problems faced by similarly situated companies such as like

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Speaker 1: media leader. Bitten Vender, CEO of mass Appeal, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for dropping by. Thank you for having me

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Speaker 1: mass Appeal. I have seen it described as a platform

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Speaker 1: for radical creatives. Tell me how does a platform for

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Speaker 1: radical creatives make money in today's media landscape. Uh, diversification,

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Speaker 1: I think is a big point of what separates us

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Speaker 1: and makes us a sort of unique company. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: we look at mass Appeal is like an engine and

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Speaker 1: then creatives can plug into its. Whether you're a music artist,

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Speaker 1: a film filmmaker, h a journalist, you know, a graphic

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Speaker 1: designer or whatever. We are sort of a place where

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Speaker 1: you can come in and then we can help you

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Speaker 1: realize your dreams. So the goal is, you know, if

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Speaker 1: we're doing a lot of different things at once through

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Speaker 1: our business, you know, hopefully many of them, but if

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Speaker 1: not a few of them are making money and that's

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Speaker 1: covering sort of the things that are the passion projects

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Speaker 1: for the business. So you have kind of an incubator

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Speaker 1: mall where you have relationships with a lot of creative

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Speaker 1: people and kind of give them the tools and the platform,

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Speaker 1: and then as things developed, then you partner with them

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Speaker 1: to shape them a little bit more for the for

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Speaker 1: the content marketplaces that that we have our stable of

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Speaker 1: talent that is like our home home team, the family

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Speaker 1: of massi Appeal. Obviously Sasha Jenkins, we directed the Wu

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Speaker 1: Tang series and many of other other sort of high

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Speaker 1: profile projects. He's the marquee sort of name that people

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Speaker 1: are most familiar with. And then under under Sasha, we

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Speaker 1: have a bunch of you know, Sasha protegees or people

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Speaker 1: that we are grooming through, um, smaller projects, but that

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Speaker 1: we see having a ton of potential. And that's you know,

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Speaker 1: that's a handful of people less than ten that are

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Speaker 1: sort of like Mass Appeal living breede that every day,

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Speaker 1: that are not staff but like creative directors. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then we bring in you know, people for the right

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Speaker 1: jobs that are sort of our extended family members. UM.

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Speaker 1: So whether we're doing a soundtrack for a movie, not

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Speaker 1: every artist on our label that is necessarily gonna fill

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Speaker 1: every slot. So we'll have you know, half of our

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Speaker 1: team maybe produced music, and then bring in you know,

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Speaker 1: whoever else we think might be might be right for

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Speaker 1: the project. And mass Appeal in addition to in addition

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Speaker 1: to you know, video content, film and film and video,

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Speaker 1: doing creative advertising, branded work. You also have a music label.

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Speaker 1: You have a partnership with Universal Music Group. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: mass Appeal has four sort of business units. Um. The

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Speaker 1: thing that people know Mass Appeal most for was a magazine.

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Speaker 1: If you sort of followed the history of mass I

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Speaker 1: don't know if the variety listeners maybe maybe know the

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Speaker 1: whole history, um, But today Mass Appeal sort of works

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Speaker 1: in these four different areas that all synergistically can come

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Speaker 1: together on something big like a Woo Tang, or can

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Speaker 1: kind of work as a siloed different business unit content arm.

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Speaker 1: So the content Arm is producing really premium level film

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Speaker 1: and television projects, so Wu Tang being the most recent

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Speaker 1: of them. But then we've done you know, films like

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Speaker 1: Fresh Dressed. We just finished Futures documentary with Apple Music.

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Speaker 1: We did a big series of Netflix called Rapture. We've

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Speaker 1: had you know a handful of things, whether they're they've

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Speaker 1: all been non scripted, you know, for the moment, we're

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Speaker 1: starting to get into the scripted space. So that's the

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Speaker 1: content bucket. The record label is a non traditional label,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that like we have artists, we do

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Speaker 1: very artist friendly deals. NAS obviously being the helm of

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Speaker 1: the label, is a great, you know, sort of beacon

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Speaker 1: for for the artists that we work with. Let me

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Speaker 1: also work with a lot of brands helping them solve

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Speaker 1: their music needs. So whether it's a soundtrack for a

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Speaker 1: movie or We just did a big program for want

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Speaker 1: of Uni leaders, Uni Leaver's brands who wanted to do

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Speaker 1: something really impactful and hip hop with music for one

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Speaker 1: of their products. So the label unlike a lot of

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Speaker 1: major labels or you know whatnot, we have our artists.

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Speaker 1: But then we're also sort of having this music agency

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Speaker 1: model where brands can come to us and we pick

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Speaker 1: you know, three to probably five for brand projects a

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Speaker 1: year that we can do either original music or we

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Speaker 1: can do consulting or strategy work on UM. Then we

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Speaker 1: have the creative department, which you brought up, which is

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Speaker 1: more of a traditional agency creative advertising. So that is

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Speaker 1: a strategy first. Culture is kind of our sweet spot,

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Speaker 1: you know, our voice and the authenticity of mass appeal

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Speaker 1: because I think what sort of makes us proprietary, as

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Speaker 1: you might say, UM, so that that piece of the

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Speaker 1: business is UM you know, kind of the cash cow

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Speaker 1: if you want to say, because it's a high, high

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Speaker 1: margin business. We have great clients, Google being our largest client.

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Speaker 1: We work with you know, Showtime obviously on the marketing

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Speaker 1: of Wu Tang, but then we've worked with Game of

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Speaker 1: Thrones for years or excuse HBO for years on Game

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Speaker 1: of thrones UM and brands are coming to us to

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Speaker 1: connect with the audience and the culture that mass appeal

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Speaker 1: is very fortunate to kind of be living every single day. UM.

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Speaker 1: And then our four fourth business unit is kind of

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Speaker 1: amalgamation of a lot of things. It's our digital business,

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Speaker 1: so it's all of our social channels, all of our platforms,

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Speaker 1: and then it's our venture business. So in the venture bucket,

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Speaker 1: we're building something in cannabis. Right now, we have something

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Speaker 1: else going for children that will be announcing very very soon.

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Speaker 1: One of the things, I'm a father with two young girls,

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Speaker 1: and ever since I've been shopping for them, I haven't

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Speaker 1: found products that necessarily speak to my desires, interests, and

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Speaker 1: passions as a parent. So speaking to Nas, he has

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Speaker 1: this incredible song called I Know You Can, which is

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Speaker 1: a really really inspirational song just sort of telling kids

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Speaker 1: like you can be anything you want to be, you

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Speaker 1: know in the hook. You should google the song out

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Speaker 1: there if you haven't heard. It's an incredible, really really

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Speaker 1: positive song. So I told him, I said, why isn't

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Speaker 1: there a children's book, Like the message behind the song

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Speaker 1: is so beautiful and it's just a really like it's

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Speaker 1: a song that will stand the test of time. But

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Speaker 1: it's just living as a song. There could be a

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Speaker 1: children's book, there could be an educational set like the song,

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Speaker 1: just that so many other places it can be manifested

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Speaker 1: for people that might not ever come across the song,

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Speaker 1: and just as a message the song is you know,

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Speaker 1: I know I can basically do what I want to

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Speaker 1: do if I work hard at it. Um. Sorry nas

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Speaker 1: for for puchering your puchering your song. Um, but the

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Speaker 1: message beyond the song is now being turned into the

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Speaker 1: sort of inspiration for an entire children's business that Mass

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Speaker 1: Appeals launching will be announcing it eleven. So UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have different products we're doing, we're building. Some of

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Speaker 1: them are educational, some of them are more just cool,

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Speaker 1: sort of novelty things for for kids. But they're all

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Speaker 1: using sort of youth music culture and hip hop sort

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Speaker 1: of a driving inspiration. Um, just putting more diversity into

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Speaker 1: that market. There's not a lot of people who have

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Speaker 1: sort of looked at the children's market and put that perspective,

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Speaker 1: which is crazy knowing that hip hop, you know, is

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Speaker 1: a number one streamed genre music globally and the impact

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Speaker 1: it's had you're well into your second and third generation

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Speaker 1: of the listeners. There's a lot of parents, myself being

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Speaker 1: one of them, who grew up I didn't grow up

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Speaker 1: on led Zeppelin. I grew up on run DMC, your

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Speaker 1: nas or whatever. So I'm really excited about that business.

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Speaker 1: And again, the creative agency is sort of powering that

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Speaker 1: business as a venture. So that's that's how we're working. Um,

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Speaker 1: it sounds I mean, it sounds like you've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of different balls in the air.

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Speaker 1: How would you say, at this moment, when there are

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Speaker 1: more avenues to get content and to be innovative than

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Speaker 1: ever before, how do you decide? How do you decide

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Speaker 1: what your focus at any given time should be. I

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Speaker 1: hire very good people who can sort of manage my

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Speaker 1: my creative craziness, because if it was up to me,

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Speaker 1: we be doing all these things at once. Um, we

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Speaker 1: have a bandwidth like any small growing company. So it's

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Speaker 1: more about where the opportunity is that we see. You know,

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Speaker 1: mass appeal is building a business based on I P

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Speaker 1: We're not. The service business is great, but the three

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Speaker 1: other buckets of mass appeal the content, the music, and

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Speaker 1: the sort of digital adventures that's where we're going to

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Speaker 1: build a long term value that will give mass appeal

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Speaker 1: to the ability to ultimately scale into the global you

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Speaker 1: know kind of platform we wanted to be for you know,

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Speaker 1: urban culture. So the you know, like what can you

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Speaker 1: do with the given hours in a day. So whether

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Speaker 1: it's my head of strategy and operations or the finance

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Speaker 1: or some of my other business partners, we just have

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Speaker 1: to lay everything on the table and say what can

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Speaker 1: we do well, what can we do first? And what

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Speaker 1: can we do with the quality level that we've sort

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Speaker 1: of become accustomed to doing stuff. And you are in

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Speaker 1: the content arena, you are a little more traditional, and

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Speaker 1: you are making content and selling it to other platforms.

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Speaker 1: You're not trying to draw people to a website or

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Speaker 1: or a large social platform branded mass appeal. So up

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Speaker 1: until last year, we did have an oh no, we

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Speaker 1: had a traditional website. We were putting up you know

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Speaker 1: a few dozen pieces of content a week, and we

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Speaker 1: were much like an other website that you'd see out there.

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Speaker 1: Um that business, as you well know, last year had

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Speaker 1: a really major correction with companies that were worth you know,

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Speaker 1: nine figures selling for pennies on the dollar and I

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Speaker 1: think we got out of that business at the right

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Speaker 1: time and we focus on what massive it was really

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Speaker 1: great at, which is you know, premium storytelling. And for us,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't about having it necessarily live on our channel.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to live where the most people are going

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Speaker 1: to experience it. So for us, it's more about ownership

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Speaker 1: creative control. So as long as we're co owning the

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Speaker 1: content and we have control over it, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: live at the best place possible. So for Wu Tang

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Speaker 1: Showtime was the best place possible because they were going

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Speaker 1: to get behind it in the way that you know

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Speaker 1: we needed um answers. Yeah, I mean to tell us

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Speaker 1: Wu Tang is obviously has had come out and like

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty much universal acclaim and you platform that

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Speaker 1: really interestingly, you took you know, what was envisioned as

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Speaker 1: a documentary TV series and had a big screening at

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Speaker 1: Sundance and got it got attention for it, But it

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Speaker 1: was always envisioned as a television series. Correct, So this

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Speaker 1: has been like the Holy Grail story for us. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much Wu Tang had an

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Speaker 1: impact on myself and you know, most of the people

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Speaker 1: who work at Massapeal. Obviously we're just incredibly influenced by

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Speaker 1: what Wu Tang meant back in the nineties but still today.

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Speaker 1: So it was it was a labor of love to

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Speaker 1: get this done, just you know, um getting them all

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Speaker 1: on board. I mean, people have been trying to make

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Speaker 1: the Woutang doc for you know, ten ten years now

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Speaker 1: at least. Um. So when we finally got everybody unified

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Speaker 1: that like, this was the time to tell their story

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Speaker 1: to us, the most important thing we could do was

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Speaker 1: make it deserving of what these guys have created globally.

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Speaker 1: So yes, we didn't want it to be a one

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Speaker 1: hour special. We wanted to be there's just there's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's ten voices in Wu Tang. So I mean there's

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Speaker 1: a people who have watched the four hours who were like,

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Speaker 1: give me another four you know. There's like we didn't

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Speaker 1: even get into the solo albums. We didn't get in

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Speaker 1: there's so many pieces of Wu Tang that you couldn't

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Speaker 1: talk about in four hours. It sounds like season two showtime.

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Speaker 1: But no, the the format that we ended up choosing,

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Speaker 1: the four part felt really really um well suited for

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Speaker 1: the story, and we got you know, lucky with Sun Dance.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was a great union in

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Speaker 1: terms of them having the serialized sort of division of

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Speaker 1: Sun Dance where they're premiering multi part series. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting Wu Tang to come to Sundance was a big draw.

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Speaker 1: It's a little nerve racking because they hadn't seen the series.

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Speaker 1: They watched it in the theater with the crowd for

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Speaker 1: the first time, which was you know a little intense

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Speaker 1: for myself and Sasha, not knowing how they'd react because

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Speaker 1: you know, if you haven't seen the series, encourage everybody

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Speaker 1: to please watch it. But when you do watch it,

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Speaker 1: and if you've seen it, they're very vulnerable in it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not like what you would think of

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Speaker 1: with nine. You know, guys who live them very very

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Speaker 1: hard life coming from Staten Island. They really laid it

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Speaker 1: all out there. There wasn't a lot of um, you know, ego.

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Speaker 1: It was just like, this is our chance to tell

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Speaker 1: our story and we want to make sure it's told properly.

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Speaker 1: And it's just to hear the maturity of these voices

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Speaker 1: that have always been so strong and always had a

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Speaker 1: lot to say, but to hear them now as mature

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Speaker 1: men reflecting on that time and their careers and where

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Speaker 1: they are. I think that's one of the things, maybe

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Speaker 1: to the more casual viewer that really stands out, that

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Speaker 1: really was so well captured in the piece. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean Nas, whom you know, we're very lucky to have

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Speaker 1: as one of our business partners at Mass Appeal. He

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Speaker 1: said it so eloquently. He's like, I would have killed

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Speaker 1: killed him if I was in that group twenty five years. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how they didn't, how they're still together.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just imagine how many friends do you have

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Speaker 1: that you've known for twenty five years that you're still

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Speaker 1: that close with ten years later. So it's amazing what

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Speaker 1: they have, um, what they've achieved. I mean, Sasha says this,

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Speaker 1: you know, He's like, think about you know, nine, ten.

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Speaker 1: I always say ten because o dB is no longer

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Speaker 1: with us in terms of shooting the dock. But I

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Speaker 1: think about ten ten people who came from those circumstances

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Speaker 1: who have achieved that level of success and fame. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't think of ten other people in the history

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Speaker 1: of time that have sort of a risen to that

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Speaker 1: level of success coming from those circumstances, So it's just

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Speaker 1: great that they're still together, they're touring, they're making money,

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Speaker 1: they're still revered. We built a museum to them. One

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Speaker 1: of the one of the great parts about Wu Tang,

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Speaker 1: and this is one of the things that I think

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Speaker 1: makes mass Appeal so special, is that we didn't just

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Speaker 1: produce the content. We put out a soundtrack. We put

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Speaker 1: out a Wu Tang original EP on our record label.

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Speaker 1: Show Tom hired us as the creative agency, so Mass

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Speaker 1: Appeal designed the key art. We built an entire museum

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Speaker 1: in partnership with Dolby called the Womuseum, which was in

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Speaker 1: saying twenty square foot experience space where we recreated Rizz's bedroom,

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Speaker 1: and we had a tribute room to O. D B

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Speaker 1: and all this incredible projection mapping, and UM had this

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Speaker 1: art gallery where Sessed, the Gaffiti artist, just recreated the

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Speaker 1: Woutang logo and all these different iterations. So tell us

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Speaker 1: us about building like a universe to celebrate Woutang, not

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Speaker 1: just a piece of content. Did you finance the initial UM,

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Speaker 1: initial production, the initial hours that screened at Sundance? Did

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Speaker 1: you finance those yourselves before you had before showtime was

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Speaker 1: on board. UM. We actually partnered with Endeavor Content, so

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Speaker 1: we're represented by William Morris. We brought them. They actually

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Speaker 1: helped packages, so they represent Rizza. So about two years

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Speaker 1: ago Jadum over there was one of our agents was like,

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Speaker 1: Rizza is ready to really tell the Woutang story. And

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Speaker 1: we've been sniffing around the story, as I mentioned, for

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Speaker 1: quite some time, but it never felt like the timing

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Speaker 1: was right. So Rizza took a meeting with Sasha. Sasha's

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Speaker 1: um you may have seen in the dock put Wu

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Speaker 1: Tang on the first magazine car they ever had back

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Speaker 1: in the nineties. There was this really long circular kind

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Speaker 1: of relationship that that came to fruition through the series UH.

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Speaker 1: And we were about to take it out to the market.

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Speaker 1: We're about to go shop it, just like you know

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Speaker 1: any other project, like let's set up the pitches and

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Speaker 1: Endeavor Content was just launching and they said, nope, we're

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Speaker 1: going to fund this one. We think this is too

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Speaker 1: special of a project. So that kind of rechanged Massi

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Speaker 1: Pipel's business model. UM. Up until then, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the projects we've done had been more traditional, like we

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Speaker 1: sell the content whoever pays for it. Owns the copyright.

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Speaker 1: We have some type of residual profit participation, you know,

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Speaker 1: as we're building the brand. Wu Tang was a sort

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Speaker 1: of major change in how we look at Mass Appeal

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Speaker 1: in our I P so we co own um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Utang copyright with with Endeavor and Utang Utang as

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Speaker 1: profits on at Mass Appeal. So it was a much

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Speaker 1: better deal for Woutang obviously much better deal for us

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Speaker 1: and the best part forget the the financial benefits of it.

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Speaker 1: Endeavor really didn't get in our hands like a network.

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Speaker 1: Like if we had sold it to Showtime, and I

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Speaker 1: love Vinnie and he's been our biggest supporter from from

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Speaker 1: the jump, they would have wanted to see edits. There

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Speaker 1: would have been notes, and even if they maybe weren't intrusive,

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Speaker 1: the project was made on such an accelerated time time table,

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Speaker 1: we just had to go. So the fact we didn't

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Speaker 1: have all the trappings of a traditional network made it

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Speaker 1: so that we could actually deliver Wutang you know, at

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Speaker 1: the at the quality we wanted. UM. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of scrutiny right now in the marketplace of

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Speaker 1: the relationship and the you know, the financial and the

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Speaker 1: business relationships between artists, representatives, talent agencies, and related production companies.

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Speaker 1: You just described a very positive experience with endeavor content.

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Speaker 1: I mean, based on what your experience, would you do

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Speaker 1: more with endeavor content? Yeah, we're talking to about more

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Speaker 1: projects now. UM. You know, fortunately, after the success of Utang,

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Speaker 1: with a lot of people hitting us up and bringing

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Speaker 1: us a out of great I p The thing about

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Speaker 1: Wu Tang that I think also was really great is

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Speaker 1: at Showtime. If you notice in any of the outdoor

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Speaker 1: the trailer, the mass Appeal logo sits side by side

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Speaker 1: with Showtime. That was the first time that had ever

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Speaker 1: happened in the history of Showtime. Was that negotiated. It

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Speaker 1: was negotiated intensely. UM. But I think when we finally

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Speaker 1: sat down with Showtime when we were doing the deal,

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Speaker 1: we explained to them that mass Appeal brings a certain

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Speaker 1: level of authenticity. We bring an audience and having our brand,

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Speaker 1: which was important to Wou Tang um side by side

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Speaker 1: with Showtime and it wasn't everywhere, but it was in

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Speaker 1: most of the key places. UM was actually going to

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Speaker 1: add more credibility to the project. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: killed ourselves making this. We didn't make a lot of

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Speaker 1: money on the production of Wu Tang. It's more about

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Speaker 1: the the value it's driving for our brand and the

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Speaker 1: library content. So Woutang was the first for the business

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, just the business model, the branding.

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Speaker 1: So now we've set sort of a new benchmark of

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Speaker 1: how we want to you know, do deals in the future.

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Speaker 1: And the response, it sounds like um from the creative

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Speaker 1: community has been strong, incredible people. You know, Sasha has

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Speaker 1: always been uh, you know, a very sort of sought

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Speaker 1: after voice in urban culture and just the space, whether

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Speaker 1: it was a journalist with the books he was writing,

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Speaker 1: or as you know obviously ah, you know, just a voice.

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Speaker 1: But now as he's built his name as a director

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Speaker 1: through through mass appeal. It started with a project Fresh Dressed,

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Speaker 1: which Vinnie when he was at CNN sort of supported

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Speaker 1: Vinnie Malhotra, who is the head of documentaries for Showtime

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Speaker 1: exactly m Vinnie was the first to sort of step

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Speaker 1: out and see Sasha's talent. We made that movie. It

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Speaker 1: took us to Sundance. It was our first film partnership

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Speaker 1: with CNN, a film wanted to become very successful. And

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Speaker 1: then from there Sasha was he got the directing bug,

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Speaker 1: and you know, ten projects later, he's got ten more

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Speaker 1: than he wants to do. So we're really lucky to

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Speaker 1: have the support of uh, you know, William Morris and

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Speaker 1: people like Vinny and obviously Sasha is now set up

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Speaker 1: where a lot of people want to have his brand

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Speaker 1: and mass Pills brand, so it feels good. You mentioned,

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Speaker 1: of course, the importance of authenticity and the Massive Hill

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Speaker 1: brand was that it was important that Mass Appeal be

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Speaker 1: affiliated with the Wu Tang documentary in order to just

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Speaker 1: to signal a kind of a perspective and a point

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Speaker 1: of view in the in the production, to the to

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Speaker 1: the you know, it was important that Mass Appeal have

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Speaker 1: have a logo presence in the documentary to signal to

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Speaker 1: the sort of hardcore Woo tank fan that this was

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Speaker 1: coming from somebody with a perspective to really tell this story. Trusted,

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Speaker 1: trusted voice. How in a business that is that that

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Speaker 1: trades on the strength of your creatives and the voice

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Speaker 1: and the authenticity that a more traditional media company, you know,

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Speaker 1: a Warner Brothers or a Fox might would not bring,

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Speaker 1: would bring the same level to a project. How do you,

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Speaker 1: I guess, how do you how do you stay on

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Speaker 1: the cutting edge. That seems like a really a real

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Speaker 1: challenge for companies as they start to grow in scale

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Speaker 1: and work with work with brands, and work in the

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Speaker 1: you know, in the working in you know, dank comedy

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00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: clubs and music venues. Like, how do you balance the

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00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: need to be you know, to be a profitable business,

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Speaker 1: a successful business working in a lot of different areas

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Speaker 1: with keeping that sort of street cred that got you there.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a daily, daily conversation in the offices, uh,

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Speaker 1: in our office. Um. You know, we're fortunate to have

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Speaker 1: iconic artists like a Nas. We're doing a new album

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Speaker 1: with day Law Soul that's being half produced by DJ

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Speaker 1: Premiere and half produced by Pete Rock. That's a name

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Speaker 1: from the past. It is a name from the past.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we have incredibly established artists, whether it's

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Speaker 1: like I said, a day Law and Nas whomever, who

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Speaker 1: give us one perspective, and then we're also working with

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Speaker 1: a lot of very young talent who give us a

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Speaker 1: completely different perspective. So that balance, I think keeps us

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Speaker 1: feeling really connected to what's important and what raised us,

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Speaker 1: but then also what's what's really now. Um. And then

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Speaker 1: we're not We're not sprinting. We're going for the marathon,

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Speaker 1: you know. So it's not like we take every opportunity

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Speaker 1: that comes into our our path where you really have

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Speaker 1: to evaluate. We have to evaluate from a bandwidth, from

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Speaker 1: a brand standpoint. So to us, it's not you know,

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Speaker 1: making money is that. You know, we're a business and

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Speaker 1: we have to do that for our shareholders and for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: But I would rather have a business in five years

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Speaker 1: that's got integrity and maybe has a little bit less

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Speaker 1: money because we made the right decisions, because I know

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Speaker 1: in the long run, if we operate the business with

429
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: that sort of ethos, we will stand the test of time.

430
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: A lot of the businesses, you know, last year that

431
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 1: aren't here at the moment, they got caught up in

432
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: the clickbait, you know, kind of news cycle and it

433
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: was just volume, go go, go, go go, and they

434
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: got these incredibly inflated valuations, and you know, the media

435
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: business got very, very saturated with a lot of money

436
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of bad decisions. I

437
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: guess it's the best way to put it. Um. Unfortunately,

438
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: there was a correction in that business, and I think

439
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: the reason massive feels stronger now than we ever have been.

440
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: Is because we sort of stayed true, Like we never said,

441
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: let's let's do the projects that can make us a

442
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: ton of money today, but we're gonna look back in

443
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: five years and be regretting, like, oh god, that's like

444
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: a little blip on our on our timeline. Um wootang

445
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 1: is something that you know, for the rest of my life,

446
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: I will be able to very proudly say that I

447
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: was part of making the Woo tank doc. So, I mean,

448
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: let me ask you kind of bluntly, do you see

449
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 1: Vice Media and its trajectory as a cautionary tale as

450
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: you grow? Yeah, I mean they're one of many cautionary tales.

451
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: I mean I think what they've built is beyond impressive.

452
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: You know, as a business, we've only raised you know,

453
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 1: we did our first seed round when we bought mass Appeal.

454
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: You know, we raised a million dollars. In seventeen we

455
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: raised six million dollars. So we've raised seven million dollars

456
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: in about seven years. And what we've built, in my opinion,

457
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: is incredibly efficient and very very differentiated in the market.

458
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 1: If you look advice, I don't know what they've raised,

459
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: but it's a billion plus dollars in a similar time period.

460
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: And now they have the business that has all kinds

461
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: of very well documented issues. Um, they still have a

462
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: robust business, and you know, hopefully Nancy can continue to

463
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: get that business back on track, which I think she can. Um,

464
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: there's less about any specific business. It's more about businesses

465
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: that sort of got over their skis, as you might say.

466
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: And um, I think a lot of these companies got

467
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: caught up in valuations and all this stuff and they

468
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: lost like what made them want to get into business

469
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: in the first place. So hopefully that's that's not ever

470
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: gonna happen to us. And tell us, let's take a

471
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: step back and remind us kind of the origin story.

472
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: Mass Appeal started out in the mid nineties as a

473
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: print maker, as a print fan zine started out as

474
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 1: a graffiti zine in by two guys named Patrick Elastic

475
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: and Adrian Moehler. They're graffiti graffiti artists who just had

476
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: a sort of passion. They built the brand from a

477
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: graffiti magazine into sort of culture publication that was focused

478
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: on hip hop graffiti, just street culture, youth culture. And

479
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: in the nineties, you know, to basically two thousand eight,

480
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: when the brand kind of went dormant for a few

481
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: years because one of the founders passed away. Unfortunately, that

482
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: was like the bible of culture, you know, if you

483
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: were somewhat cool and you wanted to stay in the know.

484
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: There was a handful of other magazines, but Mass Appeal

485
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: was like the one that everybody looked to, like we

486
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: were sort of setting the trends. I can't even say

487
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: we because I was just simply reading it at that point.

488
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, the brand was great when we were able

489
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: to buy it and relaunch it because even though the

490
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: brand had been dormant from two thousand and eight to

491
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: two thousand, twelves had been publishing. It had so much

492
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: equity in the name that when we decided to bring

493
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: it back, all these people would come up to me

494
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: and say, oh my god, it's so great that you

495
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: and Sasha and Nas. You know, you're taking Mass Appeal.

496
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: But honestly, I didn't even know what everyone out of business,

497
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, like, it just felt like it was omnipresent.

498
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: So you, Sasha and Nas teamed and a handful of

499
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: other investors, people weresters, operators of the business and you.

500
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: So it was a basically dormant I p and you

501
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: bought it from them and then you revived it as

502
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: with this very content focused strategy. So initially I had

503
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: a previous company named Deacon. That company was a microcosm

504
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: of what Mass Appeal has now grown into become. The

505
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: company had a record label, had a creative arm, and

506
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: had a production arm. It was cool, but it was

507
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: really less about IP ownership and more about service. So

508
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: that was you know, music videos, it was documentaries. It

509
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: was putting out albums from like my favorite you know,

510
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: backpack hip hop artists, but that I absolutely loved, and

511
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: then ultimately graduating to put out you know, I'll push

512
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: a T or a drastic five. But in the in

513
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 1: the early days, you know, we were working with some

514
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: of the golden era hip hop artists that I just idolized,

515
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a c Alone or you know,

516
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: hieroglyphics or whomever. Um. But the business wasn't really building

517
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: any value. It was more about just keeping keeping me

518
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: really busy and doing a lot of cool stuff that

519
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: I was proud of. When we had the opportunity to

520
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: buy Mass Appeal, it kind of took all the learnings

521
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: that we had a Deacon and gave us a give

522
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: a face to the business because Deacon was more behind

523
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: the scenes and Mass Appeal became more of a consumer brand,

524
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: so very quickly massive it went from being a dormant

525
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: what was historically just a magazine to having an agency,

526
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: having a record label, having a product, an arm um. So, yeah,

527
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: it was and you've funded your growth with it sounds

528
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: like relatively little investment money. You're kind of growing on

529
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: your own steam. Is that fair to say? Yeah, we've been.

530
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: You know, we probably would have been benefited to raise

531
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: you know, this series A you know, a few years early,

532
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: we probably could have gotten a little further along. But

533
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: you know, when you're doing as many things as we

534
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: do a mass Appela every day, you know, if we

535
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: had just wanted to be a record label or just

536
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: wanted to be a content studio or you know, an agency,

537
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: we could have built one of those businesses pretty scaled,

538
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: probably with focused investment. But I have a bigger vision

539
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: for Mass Appeal and as the Sasha of this global

540
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: uh you know, global brand that's really like the voice

541
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: of urban culture. So for us, it was like baby

542
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: steps in a lot of places at once, improving the model.

543
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: So when we got the series A, it's just turbo

544
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: charged and everything. Universal has been a phenomenal partner. Um.

545
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: They're funding a lot of content for us right now.

546
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: They obviously gave us the record label to you. Um so, yeah,

547
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: that was a pivotal moment for the company. Do you

548
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: put on physical, physical recordings or is it is it

549
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: is strictly a digital Yeah, I can send you a

550
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: box of vinyl right now. I love I am a

551
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: big I was one of my uh I don't wanna

552
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: say saddest moments of Mass Appeal, but you know, the

553
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: magazine is a very very hard business. We don't have

554
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: a sales staff Mass Appeals whole business. We're hiring one

555
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: at the moment, but up until recently, our whole business

556
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: has been word of mouth and repeat business. So when

557
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: you have a magazine that is not heavily circulated, you know,

558
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: even if you have low five digit circulation, you know

559
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: it's not huge. Ads are not really paying for, you know,

560
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: the production that they're not paying. If they're not paying,

561
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: they're not paying for it's a big business card basically, um.

562
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: And it was a beautiful business card. But about a

563
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: year ago we put a temporary pause. I'm not saying

564
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: Massive Pill won't publish again, but we had things in

565
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: front of us that felt more opportunity, more like a

566
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: real opportunity, whether it was the Wu Tangs of the

567
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: world are building the record label. Um. But yes, I

568
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: love physical stuff personally, I am. I am a big

569
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: proponent of making things, and I love the fact that

570
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: vinyl is having a huge resurgence right now. It's amazing

571
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: to me to go into urban outfitters or you know,

572
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: I get to travel quite often for for work, and

573
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: I go into the record stores and random parts of

574
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: the world and to see the vinyl section like exploding

575
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: is just so exciting, and you know, it's amazing like

576
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: when we put out a DJ Shadow album or a

577
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: Run the Jewels or NAS. These aren't just have these

578
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: cult incredibly incredibly loyal fan bases that you know, you

579
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: can make five of these pretty elaborate bundles, you know,

580
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: and people will go clamoring for it. Um. So yes,

581
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: we're still you know, NAS is putting out Lost Tapes

582
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: to UH in the near future, which is a project

583
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: that's been a long time in the works, and we're

584
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: working on a big clothing collection with a very very

585
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: exciting like fashion brand. I don't even call them street

586
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: where there's something there's something different than that. UM, we're

587
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: building a whole experience space. We're hiding songs with brands

588
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: and different products and all these different things we're doing. UM.

589
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: But a lot of it is giving people a real

590
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: tangible experience. You know, digital and streaming will continue to

591
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: drive the business. But for those people that buy the vinyl,

592
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: they get to see the whole experience of the photography,

593
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: the liner notes, the graphic design, the sonic quality of it. UM.

594
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,239
Speaker 1: I hope that doesn't ever go away. Personally, how do

595
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: you do you do much in the way of of research,

596
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: focus groups? How do you keep tabs on what is

597
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: you know, the cutting edge in the in this in

598
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: this sort of culture that is known for its fast changing.

599
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: You know, there's a new artist, a new a new sound,

600
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: a new a new sense of the vanguard. You know,

601
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: every couple of months, every couple of weeks. I'm still

602
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: trying to get a sense of like how you how

603
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: you keep tabs on the culture that you're trying to reflect. UM.

604
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: We're fortunately a very young, vibrant staff, so we have

605
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: a lot of voices in the office. Um, you know,

606
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: we have our upper management. There's not a ton of middleman.

607
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: There's there's really hard working, connected young people who feed

608
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: us a lot of their energy and their perspectives. Um.

609
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, for for example, for like the kids brand

610
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: that we're launching, We're doing a whole focus group next week.

611
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: We're bringing in forty or fifty people. Some of them

612
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 1: are super uber cool, you know, the Instagram influencer parents,

613
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: and some of them are just people that we love

614
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: and respect their opinions. So yeah, we definitely crowdsource. We

615
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: definitely bring another perspectives. But I think we give enough

616
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: autonomy and support to sort of the younger staff or

617
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: if they think we're making decision that doesn't feel representative

618
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: of Mass Appeal, they'll raise their hand and be like,

619
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that's cool. You know, whether we decided

620
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: to follow their advice or not. But yeah, you have that,

621
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: you have that in house vote, and they'll they'll slap

622
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: I risked. Um. Let me ask you, when you were

623
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: at college student reading Mass Appeal print magazine, did you

624
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: ever imagine yourself in the position of a CEO? How

625
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: did you get on the Entrepreneur track. I definitely always

626
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: wanted to be an entrepreneur. Both my parents were entrepreneurs,

627
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: so I think it was in my blood. Um actually

628
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: went to restaurant management school, so I had a whole

629
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: different I was at culinary school. I was at n

630
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: y U for hospitality tours and management. So when I

631
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: tell people I went to n y U, now they

632
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: assume it was tishe for film school, and I'm like, no,

633
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: I was in culinary school. I was a kid coming

634
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: back from culinary school at eleven o'clock at night to

635
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: the dorm rooms and the you know, it was the

636
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: best kid on the floor because I'd bring all the

637
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: food from my cooking class um to feed all my

638
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: Stone friends. Um. But no, I always wanted to have

639
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: my own business. I always had ideas. I always was

640
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: heavily influenced by hip hop. I never saw the mass

641
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: appeal thing coming. But very quickly out of college I

642
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: started working with some of my favorite artists, whether it

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00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: was you know Farrell or whomever. Um. I got very

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00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: lucky in terms of just meeting people and you know,

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00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: you do good work. It was a smaller world back then,

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00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: so like, oh this this this project was dope. You

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00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: should hit up Peter or whatever. Um but no, the

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00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: masscule thing when it came to fruition was so immediate

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00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: and fast. It moved so quickly because I feel like

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00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: it was just sort of one of those things that

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00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: sort of meant to happen. Um but no. But I

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00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: still have a lot of my old mastercules, so collector's

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00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: items collectors, I am sure. Old Peter, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for coming and talking to us about your company.

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Speaker 1: Will be definitely be paying attention to all your many

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00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: flights that are spinning in the air and uh and

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Speaker 1: good luck to you. Thank you so much, thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to tune in next week for another episode

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Speaker 1: of Strictly busin