WEBVTT - Ludwig Göransson 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:23.156 Pushkin. Ludwig Gornsen is, without a doubt, one of the 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:27.596 most accomplished and distinctive film composers of the twenty first century. 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:31.356 In twenty twenty, after having worked on Tenet together, acclaimed 0:00:31.396 --> 0:00:34.756 director Christopher Nolan hired Gornson again to score what has 0:00:34.796 --> 0:00:40.516 become one of the biggest movies of twenty twenty three. Oppenheimer. Ludwig, 0:00:40.516 --> 0:00:43.076 who emigrated to Los Angeles from his native Sweden in 0:00:43.076 --> 0:00:45.956 two thousand and seven, has racked up dozens of writing, 0:00:46.076 --> 0:00:50.076 producing and scoring credits. He started out working in TV 0:00:50.196 --> 0:00:53.196 and oversaw music on hit shows like Community, New Girl, 0:00:53.316 --> 0:00:57.076 and The Mandalorian. He eventually started scoring films with his 0:00:57.116 --> 0:01:01.196 old college friend Ryan Kugler. Ludwig composed music for all 0:01:01.236 --> 0:01:05.076 of Ryan's hit movies, including Fruitville Station, the Creed series, 0:01:05.156 --> 0:01:08.116 and both Black Panther films, the first of which won 0:01:08.196 --> 0:01:11.636 him the Academy Award for Best Original Score in twenty nineteen. 0:01:12.396 --> 0:01:15.396 On today's episode, I talked to Ludvig Gorenson about his 0:01:15.516 --> 0:01:18.756 incredible body of work as a composer and producer. He 0:01:18.796 --> 0:01:21.836 explains how his rigorous musical training in Sweden prepared him 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:25.956 to write the complex sections of Oppenheimer's score. Ludwig also 0:01:26.036 --> 0:01:28.316 plays some of the more moving sections of the score 0:01:28.356 --> 0:01:30.196 for us in an effort to show us how he 0:01:30.276 --> 0:01:33.156 came up with one of the best soundtracks of the year. 0:01:36.116 --> 0:01:39.356 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:39.516 --> 0:01:45.996 I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my conversation with Ludwig Gorensen. Congratulations, 0:01:46.076 --> 0:01:50.556 I should say on the success of Oppenheimer, and also 0:01:50.716 --> 0:01:55.196 like just the reception to the music has been. It's 0:01:55.236 --> 0:01:58.796 been incredible. I'll say I always go into movies trying 0:01:58.836 --> 0:02:01.836 to know nothing. So if I hear you know, Christopher 0:02:01.836 --> 0:02:03.916 Nolan's been on a movie about Robert Oppenheimer and Robert 0:02:03.916 --> 0:02:07.636 Downey juniors in Slen Murphy, I'm like, great, that's as 0:02:07.676 --> 0:02:09.676 much as I want to know. And as it's going 0:02:09.676 --> 0:02:14.076 through it this music is incredible. So as soon as 0:02:14.076 --> 0:02:15.436 I got out, I went to pull it up so 0:02:15.436 --> 0:02:18.236 I could listen to it on the drive home. I 0:02:18.236 --> 0:02:19.996 had no idea it was you was doing the music. 0:02:20.116 --> 0:02:22.236 Yeah, it was so good man, Thank you. 0:02:22.716 --> 0:02:24.116 When did the project come to you? 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:28.036 It came to me about right as Chris had finished 0:02:28.036 --> 0:02:30.516 writing the script. And we have done a movie before 0:02:30.556 --> 0:02:34.276 called Tenant Yeah, and that was an incredible experience. Obviously, 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:37.916 I've been well aware of Chris movies and Chris films 0:02:37.956 --> 0:02:41.556 and the music, the way he uses music in his 0:02:41.556 --> 0:02:46.276 storytelling and incredible scores by Hans Zimmer and David Julien 0:02:46.436 --> 0:02:50.756 and the things that they did on Batman, and he 0:02:50.796 --> 0:02:56.876 had a huge influence and I think every film composer's life. 0:02:56.916 --> 0:02:58.956 And it also transcendent just film Goble was it was, 0:02:59.036 --> 0:03:01.996 It became kind of a it changed films I think, 0:03:02.716 --> 0:03:03.716 and the sound of film. 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:05.836 What did you notice about it before you started working 0:03:05.836 --> 0:03:07.436 with them? What had you noticed about it? 0:03:07.916 --> 0:03:10.316 Well, how much front center the music is in his 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:14.036 films and how much they're driving the story and how 0:03:14.396 --> 0:03:18.276 important it is to the energy into the tempo and 0:03:18.316 --> 0:03:22.196 the feel of his films. And it's like its own character. 0:03:22.716 --> 0:03:25.596 And that's something you know when you're getting started in 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:28.876 this career trying to write music for a film. You know, 0:03:28.996 --> 0:03:31.476 you go to the theater and it's not every time 0:03:31.516 --> 0:03:33.076 you go see a movie and you really and you 0:03:33.116 --> 0:03:36.316 can really hear the music. Yeah, you know, and I 0:03:36.356 --> 0:03:39.396 think for with Chris films, that's you go to see 0:03:39.396 --> 0:03:41.396 his films and it's it's a real experience. 0:03:41.596 --> 0:03:43.596 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, It's like, it's not often 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:46.516 you go to the movies and you feel like the 0:03:46.636 --> 0:03:49.516 score is so prominent. Like if the music is prominent, 0:03:49.796 --> 0:03:52.596 it's often a needle drop, and that feels like the song, 0:03:53.396 --> 0:03:56.036 you know, the NWA song or the one Stone song 0:03:56.076 --> 0:03:58.596 that you're hearing that you already have an emotional attachment 0:03:58.636 --> 0:04:01.196 to that becomes a character in the movie. But it's 0:04:01.316 --> 0:04:05.076 it is very rare in modern cinema to feel so 0:04:05.316 --> 0:04:07.796 attached to film music as much as you do when 0:04:07.796 --> 0:04:11.156 you go to see a Christopher Nolan movie. How conscious 0:04:11.196 --> 0:04:14.196 are you of that while you're writing the score for 0:04:14.276 --> 0:04:16.236 Christopher Nolan movie. 0:04:15.956 --> 0:04:18.956 I'm not thinking about when I'm in the moment and 0:04:18.996 --> 0:04:22.556 writing the music, I am thinking about the vision of 0:04:22.596 --> 0:04:26.356 the director. What is she or she imagining? What's the 0:04:26.396 --> 0:04:28.036 things that I can't see in the script? What are 0:04:28.076 --> 0:04:30.156 the things that I can't see when I see the 0:04:30.156 --> 0:04:34.596 film for the first time? And sometimes I even want 0:04:34.756 --> 0:04:36.876 the director to talk to me like I'm like I'm 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:40.276 an actor, or tell me as much as possible about 0:04:40.356 --> 0:04:44.836 this film, having as many conversations about the script and 0:04:45.076 --> 0:04:47.556 as much input as I can get about what their 0:04:47.916 --> 0:04:49.956 vision is the more helpful it's going to be for 0:04:49.996 --> 0:04:52.356 me to create the world of music and the sound 0:04:52.396 --> 0:04:53.796 world for the film. 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:57.516 So when Christopher Nolan reached out with the Oppenheimer script, 0:04:57.716 --> 0:04:59.116 you know what was a message to you? 0:04:59.796 --> 0:05:02.156 Well, first I he didn't say anything, so I didn't 0:05:02.156 --> 0:05:03.716 even know what it was about when I sat down 0:05:03.716 --> 0:05:04.156 to read it. 0:05:04.356 --> 0:05:04.956 Just gave it to you. 0:05:05.796 --> 0:05:08.476 No, No, I go to his office and read it, 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:10.236 because they don't give. 0:05:10.076 --> 0:05:12.476 Out the scripts, no clue at all. 0:05:12.636 --> 0:05:16.236 No, So I go there. I'm obviously super excited, and 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:18.836 I sit down in the room and I'm in it 0:05:18.836 --> 0:05:20.996 for a three hour, three and a half hour journey. 0:05:21.796 --> 0:05:24.396 It was extremely exhilarating. I remember reading the script for 0:05:24.396 --> 0:05:27.756 the first time. It was so capturing just just being 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:31.756 in his life, like seeing the world through his eyes 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:34.756 and feeling what he was feeling in those moments. Like 0:05:34.796 --> 0:05:37.876 everything was written from the first person perspective. So it 0:05:37.916 --> 0:05:40.876 was an incredible emotional experience reading it for the first time. 0:05:40.996 --> 0:05:43.276 Well, at what point do you start allowing yourself to 0:05:43.316 --> 0:05:45.636 think about music in relation to the script as you're 0:05:45.636 --> 0:05:45.996 reading that. 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:52.036 Well, I'm starting immediately thinking about the possibilities and where 0:05:52.076 --> 0:05:55.756 to go and I also know that obviously, this is 0:05:55.756 --> 0:05:58.076 my second film with Chris, so I know that he's 0:05:58.116 --> 0:06:01.756 open for any ideas. And then shortly after I'd read 0:06:01.796 --> 0:06:04.276 the script, we have a conversation and the only direction 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:07.516 he gave me was that he was interested in He 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:09.996 was very interested in seeing how we kid have the 0:06:10.716 --> 0:06:14.956 violin portray the personality of Oppenheimer. 0:06:15.716 --> 0:06:17.796 Interesting, so what do you do with that? 0:06:18.276 --> 0:06:23.036 So and also Chris knows that my wife's Serena Gornson, 0:06:23.316 --> 0:06:28.436 is an very accomplished violinist, and we're fortunate that he 0:06:28.556 --> 0:06:32.036 wanted to take that route because that comes very handy 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:36.436 would have a wife that's also violinists. And we were 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:39.916 able to experiment long hours in the studio with things 0:06:39.916 --> 0:06:43.356 that kind of, after a while, drive me, drive both 0:06:43.356 --> 0:06:46.876 of us a little crazy, just kind of try to 0:06:47.316 --> 0:06:51.156 make the violent sound in ways that I haven't heard before, 0:06:51.236 --> 0:06:54.156 and trying to manipulate it with audio and sound effects 0:06:54.196 --> 0:06:57.596 and turning it around. And but a lot of the 0:06:57.636 --> 0:07:00.676 experimentation also came from the conversations I had with Chris 0:07:00.716 --> 0:07:04.396 in terms of how we can go from You know, 0:07:04.476 --> 0:07:08.676 Oppenheimer's is very neurotic, but there's also scenes where he's 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:13.436 probably you know, confident, and we wanted to go for 0:07:13.596 --> 0:07:18.236 something at times very beautiful and confident to something completely 0:07:18.276 --> 0:07:22.516 neurotic and horrifying. And how can we go between those 0:07:22.516 --> 0:07:24.836 feelings with the split of a second on the violin, 0:07:24.916 --> 0:07:28.116 with with just the performance of a vibrato or doing 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:30.036 a microtonal glissando up and down. 0:07:30.076 --> 0:07:32.716 You know. On first viewing, one of the things that 0:07:32.756 --> 0:07:36.276 struck me was the decision that I loved for essentially 0:07:36.596 --> 0:07:39.356 the climax of the movie, which is the testing and 0:07:39.636 --> 0:07:45.396 trinity for just to go silent? Yeah blank, Yeah, was 0:07:45.396 --> 0:07:47.196 that in the script from the beginning? 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:49.916 Yeah, No, that's that's what's you know, so many things 0:07:50.196 --> 0:07:52.396 or in the script, Like I felt when I watched 0:07:52.636 --> 0:07:54.796 when we finished a movie, and it was like it 0:07:54.836 --> 0:07:56.796 was almost like reading the script again, and it's it's 0:07:57.316 --> 0:08:00.076 the footstumps are in the script, the pause of silence 0:08:00.076 --> 0:08:04.076 in the script. Everything. I feel like he has probably 0:08:04.356 --> 0:08:06.796 tempo and music in his mind while he's while he's 0:08:06.836 --> 0:08:08.116 writing these movies. 0:08:08.476 --> 0:08:11.076 So there was a island the first explorations. 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:14.836 Yeah, so the violin, I was we were recording long 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.676 hours here in my studio and I was doing half 0:08:18.956 --> 0:08:22.116 like very long kind of glissandos trying to make sounds 0:08:22.116 --> 0:08:25.516 like almost like air raid sirens. But after a while 0:08:25.756 --> 0:08:29.996 I knew that the most important thing to get right 0:08:30.036 --> 0:08:33.316 from the beginning was the emotional core of the story. 0:08:34.596 --> 0:08:37.196 And it gets easy sometimes when you start working on 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:40.196 a project and you start just messing around with production 0:08:40.436 --> 0:08:43.516 and sounds, and like you're trying to you can hide 0:08:43.676 --> 0:08:47.716 things behind cool sounds or a bit behind effects and sounds. 0:08:47.716 --> 0:08:49.676 And I feel like you tend to do a lot 0:08:49.676 --> 0:08:52.476 of that when you write on the computer, because you 0:08:52.596 --> 0:08:56.116 use technology and and the way you see music on 0:08:56.156 --> 0:09:02.236 the computer is very horizontal and vertically. So for me 0:09:02.516 --> 0:09:06.276 it was important to get the emotional core right, and 0:09:07.436 --> 0:09:10.316 lately it's mostly the last couple of years, I feel 0:09:10.316 --> 0:09:15.236 like stepping away from the computers is helping me with 0:09:15.756 --> 0:09:16.796 feeling more creative. 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:20.796 Will you ever just sit down with some staff paper? 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:25.116 Yeah, I mean sitting by the piano writing with staff paper, 0:09:25.476 --> 0:09:28.516 or sitting by the roads, or picking up the guitar 0:09:28.876 --> 0:09:33.276 or whatever. I mean. I'm not an expert in all instruments, 0:09:33.436 --> 0:09:38.596 but I can cheat on a few. So a lot 0:09:38.636 --> 0:09:44.756 of these themes were actually wrote on the piano, and 0:09:44.796 --> 0:09:47.956 I remember the specific Openheimer theme came about after we 0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:52.156 recorded eight like hours of like a Raid Sirens and 0:09:52.196 --> 0:09:56.596 we were kind of going crazy and I just sat 0:09:56.636 --> 0:10:01.356 down the piano and just played this bass melody, super 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:04.996 simple bassline, doude doo do. 0:10:06.876 --> 0:10:11.076 Do you mind showing me? Yeah, that's Mike, Yes, yes, 0:10:11.156 --> 0:10:17.716 sir like this. M m mm hm. 0:10:20.076 --> 0:10:20.436 M h. 0:10:25.516 --> 0:10:29.236 I put that in like low cellos, low base and 0:10:29.316 --> 0:10:32.916 cellos in a slow temple m. 0:10:35.556 --> 0:10:40.676 M added this melody. 0:10:43.116 --> 0:10:45.836 Mm hmmm, mm hm m hm. 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:47.956 M m. 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:59.756 M m m m hm, m mm hmmm m m 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:03.716 m m. 0:11:06.876 --> 0:11:42.196 M m hmmm. Account it's really stunning. 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:45.636 And then right after I wrote that on the piano, 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:49.996 I asked Herina to play it, and the way she 0:11:50.116 --> 0:11:55.116 performed it was just like it's incredible, beautiful, intimate performance 0:11:56.036 --> 0:12:01.436 with its almost no vibrato, like very fragile, was was perfect. 0:12:02.236 --> 0:12:04.796 And I sent that to Chris and then he called 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:06.996 me back like twenty minutes later, and it's like, this 0:12:07.236 --> 0:12:08.876 is it, you know, this open Emerus theme? 0:12:09.236 --> 0:12:11.436 Wow? And did you think of it as a theme 0:12:11.596 --> 0:12:13.836 or you just think of it as Yeah? 0:12:14.476 --> 0:12:15.396 I thought I knew it. 0:12:15.436 --> 0:12:18.556 It was kind of special, you know, that's amazing. Yeah, 0:12:18.996 --> 0:12:20.876 And did you at this point, again, you don't have 0:12:21.156 --> 0:12:23.316 that you've read the script? Did you have it yet? 0:12:23.676 --> 0:12:25.596 I read the script and I had in my head, 0:12:25.996 --> 0:12:29.276 but no at home, nothing to reference how they get 0:12:29.356 --> 0:12:32.396 back and they hadn't shot the film. But something that's 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:36.596 really cool that that Crystalan does is he brings people 0:12:36.676 --> 0:12:38.756 in very early. He brings me in very early in 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:42.236 the process. So while he's having tests, you know, with 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:46.996 visual effects and with also costume tests, and he invites 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:49.076 me in to see the screenings of those tests at 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:52.596 Imax Theater, and I'm sitting there and I mixed theater, 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:57.356 you know, watching these incredible visual effects spot that he 0:12:57.476 --> 0:13:01.996 worked on with Andrew Jackson and some incredible experiments that 0:13:02.636 --> 0:13:05.916 I remember at the time, I felt almost like I 0:13:05.996 --> 0:13:08.956 was dreaming when I was sitting in that room. It's black, 0:13:09.476 --> 0:13:13.396 dark theater and seeing these kind of fluorescent lights like 0:13:13.516 --> 0:13:16.196 swirling around you, spinning faster and faster and faster, and 0:13:16.276 --> 0:13:19.316 then it's cutting into icy fire coming out and it's 0:13:19.356 --> 0:13:22.756 like just feel very lucky to like, you know, go 0:13:22.876 --> 0:13:24.636 on on a Monday morning is like watch this in 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:26.356 the theater and then then come out of there as 0:13:26.396 --> 0:13:30.156 like a tremendous inspiration to like, some of the things 0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:33.156 that I saw really inspired me to help me to 0:13:33.516 --> 0:13:35.956 realize what I wanted the music to sound like, Like 0:13:36.036 --> 0:13:39.196 that sense of energy that I saw on screen. 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:43.516 It's incredible that he had essentially already had the theme 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:46.516 locked in before shooting. Like that gives it almost like 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:48.756 I mean, as you say, it's all there in the script, 0:13:49.316 --> 0:13:52.116 but music does add an extra emotional element. I must 0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:55.236 I'm sure that must have helped to some degree the 0:13:56.116 --> 0:13:59.476 emotional contents of what was on Yeah on camera. 0:13:59.516 --> 0:14:02.796 Yeah, no, I it maybe it wasn't as black and 0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:04.516 white where like it was like this is his theme. 0:14:04.596 --> 0:14:06.356 But like I think we both I think we both 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:08.516 knew that it was special because we don't want to 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:11.396 jinx anything you don't want to like because you know, 0:14:11.596 --> 0:14:13.876 you never really know if it's gonna work until you 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:17.196 actually sit down with and laid in with the edit, 0:14:17.316 --> 0:14:20.116 and that's when you really can. But but I feel like, 0:14:20.236 --> 0:14:22.276 I mean, I've done two films with Chris and and 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:25.316 so far we've been pretty good at trajectoring the sound 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:27.956 and the feeling of the of the music before. 0:14:28.076 --> 0:14:30.796 Do you think about it thematically? I mean, because there's 0:14:30.836 --> 0:14:33.956 two things happening here. There's like there's really kind of 0:14:34.156 --> 0:14:38.196 quiet personal story and then it's almost like the second 0:14:38.396 --> 0:14:41.836 the co star is nuclear bomb, you know, or a 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:45.116 top bomb, which is insane, Like how do you balance 0:14:45.236 --> 0:14:46.116 those two things? 0:14:46.756 --> 0:14:50.116 Yeah, no, it was It was very Uh, it was 0:14:50.196 --> 0:14:53.276 a really tough movie to to write the music for, 0:14:54.476 --> 0:15:00.076 especially because it is as such a personal journey the 0:15:00.676 --> 0:15:04.316 feelings that you need to put the audience inside of him, 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:06.876 Like the audience shouldn't sit in the theater judging him. 0:15:07.356 --> 0:15:09.996 There should be there on his journey, feel what he feels. 0:15:11.116 --> 0:15:13.196 And that's so that's what that's what the music needs 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:14.996 to do. And the only way to do that is 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:17.156 kind of to put I need to put myself into 0:15:17.316 --> 0:15:21.756 shoes too. And some of it is some of those 0:15:22.556 --> 0:15:26.916 feeling like sadness and loneliness and emptiness and like kind 0:15:26.956 --> 0:15:30.396 of have the searching for something how to kind of 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:32.596 how the movie stars and how the music starts. That 0:15:32.756 --> 0:15:35.076 was a little easier for me to kind of navigate 0:15:35.156 --> 0:15:38.196 through and being able to I've been in some of 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:41.036 those emotional states before. But yeah, and then there's the 0:15:41.196 --> 0:15:44.076 there's that scene of like inspiration when he's going through 0:15:44.156 --> 0:15:47.196 he sees a picauso painting on the wall and you 0:15:47.316 --> 0:15:50.836 see that, you see because of painting on imax screen insane. 0:15:51.596 --> 0:15:55.596 It really had a big effect on me. And then 0:15:55.676 --> 0:15:58.116 he sees in bed and he sees this atom swirling 0:15:58.156 --> 0:16:00.836 around and around, like it moves faster and faster, and 0:16:01.556 --> 0:16:07.436 like writing that kind of exhilarating music is so fun 0:16:07.716 --> 0:16:12.556 and also at times mathematically challenging for me. And it 0:16:12.716 --> 0:16:15.476 was really interesting how I had to like combine the 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:20.516 emotional but also with the theory, which is also kind 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:24.516 of part of my background and education, and how how 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:27.356 you can use theory and what is the theory only 0:16:27.396 --> 0:16:30.396 takes it so far, But then there's also these more 0:16:30.516 --> 0:16:35.876 complicated emotions and feelings, like when when he's done the 0:16:35.956 --> 0:16:39.796 first trinity test and he's about to have his congratulatory 0:16:39.836 --> 0:16:41.956 speech to his team and to his you know, to 0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:45.556 all the scientists, and he's having a panic attack. 0:16:45.676 --> 0:16:47.396 One of the most striking things I've seen in a 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:47.876 long time. 0:16:48.036 --> 0:16:52.756 Yeah, And that was just that it's so complex, and 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:57.836 it's so that visceral and cathartic that experience. I mean, 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:00.476 they had that even reading the script, and that was 0:17:00.516 --> 0:17:04.476 so hard to imagine. So that that That was the 0:17:04.596 --> 0:17:06.356 last piece of the puzzle that I that we did 0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:06.916 on the movie. 0:17:07.196 --> 0:17:09.836 That score you left it for the end or you know, 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:10.796 we're trying. 0:17:10.636 --> 0:17:12.396 Over and over and over again. It wasn't until the 0:17:12.516 --> 0:17:16.036 last day of the dub when resolved that piece of music. 0:17:16.156 --> 0:17:16.956 How did it change? 0:17:17.356 --> 0:17:20.916 I tied it into another an earlier feeling and earlier 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:24.036 emotion and earlier scene in the movie, which is the 0:17:24.116 --> 0:17:26.916 scene when he goes to those almost for the first time, 0:17:26.956 --> 0:17:30.116 and then he's he's watching these stars. He's watching these 0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:33.196 stars getting swallowed of a black hole, and he's talking 0:17:33.196 --> 0:17:35.716 about what if I could, you know, be here lost 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:38.156 almost and do things all the most and work, you know, 0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:43.716 work at combine my passion with science. And this first 0:17:43.756 --> 0:17:46.716 time I'm kind of using these synthesizers that it kind 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:49.676 of feels like the impending doom and the synthesizers just 0:17:49.796 --> 0:17:52.516 kind of pulling you downwards in like a downward spiral. 0:17:53.476 --> 0:17:56.276 And I don't know how I could have thought about it. 0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:58.436 I was like, what if we take that feeling and 0:17:58.476 --> 0:18:02.636 that emotion and put it in this scene again and 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:04.196 it worked. 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:06.196 You were trying something completely new. 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:09.476 Something that just had like horror elements, like something I 0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:12.156 was just I was going with that feeling of like 0:18:12.716 --> 0:18:16.596 horror and shocking, but it wasn't until it got that 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:19.716 kind of emotional depth to it that it started really 0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:22.916 started to feel real. I also don't want to make 0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:24.476 it seem like the music had a big part of 0:18:24.516 --> 0:18:25.476 that scene, but you don't want to. 0:18:25.996 --> 0:18:28.356 But like the job you have that is very hard 0:18:29.316 --> 0:18:31.996 is you don't want to put too much of a 0:18:32.076 --> 0:18:33.516 mark on it, but you also don't want to fuck 0:18:33.636 --> 0:18:37.196 up what's on the screen, and you can undercut the moments. 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:40.436 Yeah, absolutely, it's it's like it's one of the best 0:18:40.876 --> 0:18:44.876 I think moments of cinema of all time, that scene. Yeah, 0:18:45.236 --> 0:18:48.036 and that emotion. How may I never felt like that 0:18:48.156 --> 0:18:49.116 before seeing a film. 0:18:50.276 --> 0:18:52.116 We have to take a quick break, then we'll come 0:18:52.196 --> 0:18:59.796 back with more of a conversation with Ludwig Gorensen. We're 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:04.956 back with more from Ludwig Gornsen. Earlier, you said mathematically 0:19:05.836 --> 0:19:08.196 I think the phrase you use is mathematically complex or 0:19:08.636 --> 0:19:10.596 what did you mean by that? The score was. 0:19:11.636 --> 0:19:16.116 There's some parts in the score where I've was able 0:19:16.236 --> 0:19:19.716 to get ideas out with music that I haven't been 0:19:19.756 --> 0:19:23.716 able to achieve before. With that, I'm describing those scenes 0:19:23.796 --> 0:19:26.596 where you feel like there's a constant temple change, like 0:19:26.636 --> 0:19:29.396 everything's getting faster and faster and faster, And I was 0:19:29.436 --> 0:19:32.476 trying to channel the feelings of the energy of constantly 0:19:32.596 --> 0:19:36.556 pushing the boundaries of energy forward, like the spinning atoms. 0:19:36.596 --> 0:19:42.196 And the way that I achieved that was through math, 0:19:43.236 --> 0:19:47.196 with having constant temple changes in a way where it 0:19:47.236 --> 0:19:49.756 didn't make musically sense. So in a way you can 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:52.796 kind of only do it on the computer. It's twenty 0:19:52.836 --> 0:19:56.116 one temple changes and this piece of music. But what 0:19:56.396 --> 0:19:58.836 made it human was we had it did it all 0:19:58.956 --> 0:20:02.636 with the live string ensemble recorded that all those temple 0:20:02.756 --> 0:20:07.756 changes live in one continuous performance. But that was a 0:20:08.316 --> 0:20:10.436 lot thanks to anthem to the computer that I was 0:20:10.476 --> 0:20:14.036 able to do this kind of interesting tempo changes with 0:20:14.156 --> 0:20:18.836 this hexotonic string pattern. That's a six note scale that 0:20:18.916 --> 0:20:21.356 I was working with at the time, and that six 0:20:21.436 --> 0:20:23.956 out scale is something that I had in my two 0:20:23.996 --> 0:20:25.196 books from from college. 0:20:25.516 --> 0:20:28.116 Did you mind showing us what a hexotonic maybe? Yeah, 0:20:28.316 --> 0:20:30.636 what a hexatonic scale is, and maybe how that translated 0:20:30.716 --> 0:20:31.596 to some degree to work. 0:20:31.676 --> 0:20:35.116 Yeah, So basically, hexatonic scale is a six note scale, 0:20:36.116 --> 0:20:39.116 and you can make a six note scale from two 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:41.996 courts that doesn't have any similar notes with each other. 0:20:42.276 --> 0:20:45.076 So two courts that doesn't have any of the same 0:20:45.156 --> 0:20:47.396 notes with each other, is like a B minor. 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:53.956 And a C major. Yeah, so that that makes this scale. 0:21:01.636 --> 0:21:04.396 So and. 0:21:06.556 --> 0:21:11.596 So and out of these six notes you can make patterns. 0:21:11.676 --> 0:21:11.796 Right. 0:21:31.076 --> 0:21:32.196 So that's just that's just. 0:21:32.276 --> 0:21:35.916 A basic and that's that's combining a B minor scale 0:21:35.956 --> 0:21:37.196 with the C major. 0:21:36.996 --> 0:21:43.276 Scale B minor chord, the B minor chord is and 0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:48.036 then the C major cord is. That's that's six notes. 0:21:48.276 --> 0:21:50.156 So are patiating both of those. 0:21:50.956 --> 0:21:54.596 Yeah, So I'm starting with the B minor major and 0:21:54.676 --> 0:21:56.876 then I'm doing the B minor again. By starting by 0:21:56.996 --> 0:22:00.436 starting the third on the on the minor third and 0:22:00.516 --> 0:22:07.876 then the major third of the C major, you can 0:22:07.916 --> 0:22:13.356 make a thousand different different patterns within within these six mills, 0:22:13.556 --> 0:22:13.956 you know, like. 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:23.396 You know. 0:22:23.676 --> 0:22:26.836 So one of the patterns that ended up making for 0:22:26.956 --> 0:22:58.596 this movie is this. That's that's the extonic. 0:22:59.716 --> 0:23:01.996 Why do you think the hexatonic scale came to you 0:23:02.076 --> 0:23:06.236 as a as a tool for for for this? 0:23:07.516 --> 0:23:11.516 I think a lot of music ideas come to me, 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:15.236 and I think to creative people I think I think 0:23:15.276 --> 0:23:17.316 you get a lot of ideas in general to anyone 0:23:17.396 --> 0:23:19.996 from from like your childhood, or from like the times 0:23:19.996 --> 0:23:22.716 when he felt like sense of inspiration, or and I 0:23:22.756 --> 0:23:25.436 think maybe seeing the scene when he's he is, I 0:23:25.476 --> 0:23:28.396 feel like he's in he's in college somewhere studying, and 0:23:28.636 --> 0:23:31.116 he sees things for the first time. It's because of painting. 0:23:31.196 --> 0:23:33.796 He sees he's thrown grass at the wall, a glass 0:23:33.796 --> 0:23:35.836 at the wall, he's listening to right a spring, He's 0:23:36.156 --> 0:23:38.276 he's like discovering all these things for the first. 0:23:38.076 --> 0:23:39.876 Time, those early scenes in the film. 0:23:40.036 --> 0:23:43.676 Yeah, And and I was maybe that made me think 0:23:43.756 --> 0:23:46.116 about when I discovered things for the first time where 0:23:46.116 --> 0:23:47.636 and when I was in college and I was playing 0:23:47.716 --> 0:23:50.676 these types of skills, and I was, you know, playing 0:23:50.716 --> 0:23:52.356 with my starting a band for the first time, my 0:23:52.396 --> 0:23:57.356 first jazz quintet. And I mean, I honestly can't remember 0:23:57.556 --> 0:23:59.636 exactly what it is, but I think a lot of 0:23:59.716 --> 0:24:03.716 times you look at yourself and you draw from those 0:24:03.836 --> 0:24:06.916 moments that that had such an impact on those first 0:24:06.956 --> 0:24:09.036