1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: Eventually, there was this conspiracy against him, one that almost 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: certainly involved the cooperation of the US government. In eighteen 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: fifty six, Strang was murdered by some of his own followers. 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 7 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold War Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 8 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: My name is Miles Harvey, and I'm an author and 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: a professor of English at DePaul University in Chicago, where 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 2: i am the director of the DePaul Publishing Institute. 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Miles Harvey wrote a book called The King of Confidence, 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: and it's about a nineteenth century con artist and false 21 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: prophet named Joseph Strang. While Brigham Young was organizing the 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: Mormon mass exodus to Utah, Strang convinced some of the 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: devout to follow him to a new colony in Michigan. 24 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: This is an unconventional true crime tale. In the landscape 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: of criminals, the ones who are closest to my heart 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,639 Speaker 1: are the nineteenth century grifter, con man, Charlatan, the ninety 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: thousand different names for him, and you have really honed 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: in on one that I find fascinating. 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: So in one way, this book is just about a 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: fascinating guy who's tried to start his own kingdom on 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: American soil. 32 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: His name was James J. Strang. In eighteen fifty he 33 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 3: led a group of rogue. 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: Mormon disciples to a little island in the middle of 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: Lake Michigan and declared himself king of Earth and Heaven. 36 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: In another way, I think this book it is about 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: how con men can influence American society and can take 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: hold in American society and under what circumstances. And that's 39 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: one of the things that really interested me. 40 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: So where do we start with Joseph Strang, Who's the 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: central character here? 42 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: So we start in Western New York in a place 43 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: called the Burned Over District. And I love that name, Kate, 44 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: because it refers to the religious fires and the social 45 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: and political fires that were ripping through Western New York 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: like wildfire after the Erie Canal was built. This is 47 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: the home of just absolutely one of the great religious 48 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: revivals in our country. And this is the environment that 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: this guy grows up in. So he comes from this 50 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: intensely Baptist home and writes in his journals, which were 51 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 2: lucky enough to have from the timing in his late 52 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: teens to early twenties, about all the revivals going on 53 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: around him and the tents coming through with preachers on them, 54 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: and he also writes that he's a total atheist. But 55 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: one of the cool things about these journals that he 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: left is he also notes when he talks about religion, 57 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: people really listen, and he can really talk a good 58 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: game and really capture people's imagination. So I think the 59 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: Burned Over District was a great place for him to 60 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: come from in a certain way. 61 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 3: I think it gave birth to people like him. 62 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 2: There were all sorts of weird self declared profits running around, 63 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: and I think he saw that if you're going to 64 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: be a prophet. It was a great training ground, even 65 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: if you're a cynical prophet who doesn't believe in God. 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: What can we liken that too? Now to give us context, 67 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: what would be a good comparison? Can you think of anything? 68 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 3: Sure? 69 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: I mean, the Antebellum period was like our own period, 70 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: a period of tense change and upheaval. Annabella means before 71 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: the war. So this is before the Civil War. So 72 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: there's this political stuff going on, right, Slavery is becoming 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: a big issue, but there's also all sorts of other 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: upheaval that I think again has some comparison to now. 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 2: This is the period where the photograph comes in, and 76 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 2: so all of a sudden, our relationship to time is 77 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: fundamentally different. You can start to freeze time. It's also 78 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: when the telegraph comes in, and so suddenly the world 79 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: is connected. Suddenly you can have conversations like we're having now, Kate, 80 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,239 Speaker 2: where you can instantaneously communicate with someone. But it's also 81 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: the railroad coming in, and so that makes America a 82 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: smaller and more mobile place. And one of the results 83 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: of all of these changes and the industrial revolution is 84 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: that we're suddenly in a society of strangers where people 85 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: really don't know how to trust each other. You're not 86 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: on the farm that your family's been on for years, 87 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: and I think that's very similar to what we have now. 88 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: It was really interesting when I was researching this book 89 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: to think about sort of the upheaval that our digital 90 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: world has caused in ways that I think we don't 91 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: even think about every day. And I think in these 92 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: times of massive, massive change, reality becomes porous. And so 93 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: this period is the period where we get the term confidence. 94 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 3: Man. 95 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: We know exactly where that word started. It starts in 96 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: eighteen forty nine in a newspaper of New York and 97 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: it spreads all over the country really quickly. And the 98 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: reason it spread is because there were so many people 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: who were hustlers taking advantage of this porous reality. 100 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: Let's pick it up with what we know about James Strength. 101 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: So we have these journals from a couple of decades. 102 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: Is that right over his life or a decade over 103 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: his life? 104 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: A shorter time, but a really great time. 105 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 2: This is when he's just sort of coming of age 106 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: and he writes a lot of stuff in code because 107 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: he's so afraid of being found out as a person 108 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 2: with desires that don't meet the standards of the time. 109 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: How did we then eventually shift to this idea that 110 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: he can become a false prophet and manipulate a large 111 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: group of people. 112 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: I think there's always with strength, and it's one of 113 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: the things that made him so much fun to write about, 114 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 2: the idealist and the opportunist working side by side and 115 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: not even aware of each other's presence. He started out 116 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 2: in Western New York as a total failure. He attempted 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: to be a lawyer and did okay for a while, 118 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: but then, you know, he was a disreputable guy, and 119 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: so people started not using him. So then he became 120 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: a newspaper man, and he failed at that too, And 121 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: finally he had to leave Western New York because he 122 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: sold some land that didn't exist to someone else and 123 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: sort of had to fly by night. 124 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 3: And so he was. 125 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: Pretty much a failure at everything he did. But you know, 126 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: I write in the book that his failures set him 127 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: up beautifully to be a profit. So he had this 128 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: experience with crowd manipulation techniques of the preachers who came 129 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 2: through Western New York. He had this sort of ability 130 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: to manipulate the law and to navigate the legal system. 131 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: That came in hugely handy for him. And he knew 132 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: the post office, so that at the time was the 133 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: big media in this country. It was like knowing cable 134 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: news or something. And he was really good at that. 135 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: And so he goes to the Midwest, and after he's 136 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: kicked out in New York, and he winds up in Nauvoux, 137 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: which was then the central place of the Mormon Church, 138 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: the fledgling Mormon Church, and he converts to Mormonism. And 139 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: I don't know if he was sincere or not. I 140 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: think that's one of the big question marks. Shortly after 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: he converts to Mormonism, Joseph Smith gets murdered. One of 142 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: the things to think about the Mormon Church at this time. 143 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: It's obviously a newer religion, but we sort of think 144 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: of the Mormon Church as something old fashioned or something 145 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people, but at this time 146 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: I think it's better to think of it as this 147 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: cutting edge kind of hip religion. Mormonism at the time 148 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: is kind of brilliant. The Book of Mormon is maybe 149 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: as a good read, not so great. I mean, Mark 150 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 2: Twain called it chloroform in print, but as a literary event, 151 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: it's extraordinary. Like what the Book of Mormon does is 152 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: it says the Bible is ongoing, and it's playing out 153 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: in the Americas and in North America. And I think, 154 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: to people in this troubled, confusing time, that must have 155 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: been really an exciting prospect. And so the center of 156 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: the church when Strang comes to the Midwest is Nauvoo, Illinois. 157 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 3: On the Mississippi River. 158 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: And at the time the city is as big or 159 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: bigger than Chicago. It's the sort of hub of activity, 160 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: not only for the church in Illinois, but it's just 161 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: this it's just a metropolis, really, you know, ten thousand 162 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: people for a frontier town. It's a big town with 163 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: big buildings and lots going on. And I still don't 164 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: know if Strang was just sort of attracted to this 165 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: idea of being self made that he saw in Smith 166 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: he met Smith, this kind of self actualization which really 167 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: would have fit with not only with him, but with 168 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: a lot of people at that time, or if he 169 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: really had a conversion to the church, or if he 170 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: was completely cynical, as some people later claimed, and saw 171 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: that this was a good con that he could take 172 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: advantage of so in any case. In eighteen forty three, 173 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith is murdered by an anti Mormon mob in 174 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: western Illinois, and just a few months later Strang receives 175 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: a letter from Joseph Smith. Modern experts think it's a forgery, 176 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: and it pretty much hands the church over to Strang, 177 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: which would be like, I don't know, you know, I'm 178 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: a resident of the city of Chicago. 179 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 3: It's sort of being like. 180 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: The handing over control of Illinois to me, you know. 181 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: So he was just a new bee in the church. 182 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: So this letter is a forgery, probably, but it's a 183 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 2: very good one because he knew what he was doing 184 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: as a postmaster, as a former postmaster, and he started 185 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: taking the letter around to Mormon gatherings, and at first 186 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: people were like, eh, eh, we ain't playing, you know, 187 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: like I don't care if you have some letter from 188 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith. 189 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 3: We don't believe it's from him. But Strang was. 190 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: He had an ability, like a lot of khanmen do, 191 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: to convince people of really unlikely things, and he just 192 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: kept at it. And in eighteen forty five in this 193 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: little town he was living in Burlington, Wisconsin, which is 194 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: about two hours northwest of Chicago, some of his followers 195 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: dug up some brass plates from a hill. Sure enough, 196 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: those plates had a script on them that no one 197 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: in the world could read besides one man. And luckily 198 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: that man happened to be living in Burlington, Wisconsin. His 199 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: name was James Jesse Strang. And luckily Strang, after some 200 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: hard work, was able to translate those plates, and Kate, 201 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: you will be surprised to learn that the plates sort 202 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: of announced Strang as the correct inheritor of the cheer. 203 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: And I think the plates convinced a few more people 204 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: they really That's where Strang first started getting a lot 205 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: of well, I don't want to say a lot, he 206 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: started getting press and national press, and he eventually got 207 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 2: a lot of press. And he was a brilliant manipulator 208 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: of media. And so his colony took off from there 209 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 2: in Burlington, in this little town and the prairies of Wisconsin, 210 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: he drew a lot of Joseph Smith's top disciples, top 211 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: leadership of the more Maontuurch, including. 212 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 3: For a while when it's Smith's brothers. 213 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: The trouble in Burlington was that people got up there, 214 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: and some of them quickly soured on Strang. They saw 215 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: him as the fraud that he may have been. But 216 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: then a lot of them stuck around and sort of 217 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: started newspapers decrying him, and some of the people who 218 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: Strang would have counted on as as followers left, and 219 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: so I think he just decided the prairies of Wisconsin 220 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: were too porous, and he eventually aimed at moving his 221 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 2: colony to Beaver Island, which is in northernmost Lake Michigan, 222 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: a fascinating place, and so eventually he moved his entire 223 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: colony up there, where he promptly set up a pirate colony. 224 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on. One thing that I read that I 225 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: thought was really interesting was that, you know, you're talking 226 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: about the letter, and he's passing this letter around and saying, I, 227 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm taking over from Joseph Smith. That did 228 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: not resonate as much as these relics that were found 229 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: clearly that he made. So why was that? Is there 230 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: a history to that of finding relics and presenting them 231 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: to the devout and getting validation that way? 232 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, the Mormon Church starts with Joseph Smith digging up 233 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: these golden plates in western New York. In this burned 234 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 2: over district that Strang also hails from, and translating these 235 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: plates as the Book of Mormon. And so when Strang 236 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: had his people dig up these plates, he was very 237 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: consciously copying the example of Joseph Smith, assuming that he 238 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: didn't actually discover these plates in a hillside in Burlington, Wisconsin, 239 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: thanks to the intercession of an angel who came like 240 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: with Smith and told him where to find these plates. 241 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 2: And so I think that that helped him. I also 242 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: just think Strang was a persuasive guy. You know, there's 243 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: an incredible story I described in the book where a 244 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: really important leader in the Mormon church is preaching and 245 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 2: on the road and runs into Strang and they have 246 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: a little preach off kind of preach. Not only have 247 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: this crowd of Mormons went over to Strang and instantly 248 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: joined his church, but the guy said, you know, I 249 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: was pretty sounidly defeated by this guy. I think he 250 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: is the real prophet. 251 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: Wow. 252 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: I write in the book. 253 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: You know, he was a short and bald and a 254 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: little bit odd looking guy, but he had this thing 255 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 2: called confidence. 256 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 3: He could exude confidence. 257 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: Charisma goes a long way in this country, It really does. 258 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, people just were drawn to him in a way 259 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: that in times of great upheaval, I think we were 260 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: looking for someone who offers clear, simple answers to complex 261 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: questions and says, as Strang did, you're the chosen, You're 262 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: the elect. But I also think, as with other parts 263 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: of the Mormon Church, she was offering something really much 264 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: more profound. The people who moved up to Beaver Island, 265 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: at least a lot of them, because he collected both 266 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: con men and true believers, and some combination of the two, 267 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: really believed the true believers did anyway, that they were 268 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: bringing about the Second Coming of Christ on Beaver Island. Now, 269 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: if you go to Beaver Island today, it's a very 270 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: nice spot, still very rustic, you might be hard pressed 271 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: to believe that this was where Jesus Christ had selected 272 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: for his return. But I think a lot of people 273 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: who followed Strang really believe that the Church of Jesus 274 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: Christ of Latter day Saints comes from the idea that 275 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: many people believe that the Second Coming was going to 276 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: happen in their lifetime. When Strang played on that brilliantly. 277 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: When James Strang starts this pirate colony in Michigan. Where 278 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: are the other Mormons with Brigham Young. 279 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Strang was probably Young's biggest competitor for succession 280 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: in the church. When we look at it now, it 281 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: seems ridiculous. Brigham Young pulled off this amazing feat in 282 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: American history where he moves people from Nauvoo, where they 283 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: were being persecuted and would have been slaughtered probably into 284 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: the West to Salt Lake City on this incredible journey 285 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: into literally unmapped territory. I mean, it was crazy, but 286 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: the fall of nouvo really benefited Strang. He was able 287 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: to convince a lot of Smith's followers that, among other things, 288 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 2: was just a heck of a lot easier to move 289 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: to Burlings in Wisconsin than it was to go into 290 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: the uncharted West. Young sort of posed himself first as 291 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: a really good technocrat, you know, I can run the church, 292 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: and Strang realized that what people wanted was a prophet, 293 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: and he said, yeah, yeah, Young's a good technocrat, and 294 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: I'm the prophet of God, and I think people were 295 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: drawn to that. And so Strang gathered people. But he 296 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: also was brilliant at you know, he'd do these tours 297 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: of the East coasts where he'd gather money and support. 298 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: And the other thing to keep in mind about Strang 299 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: was he was absolutely brilliant about manipulating the media. This 300 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: was a newspaper boom. I don't want to make an 301 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: overly simplistic comparison, Kate, but it was really like the 302 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: Internet revolution in really significant ways. Newspapers are growing all 303 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: over the country and they depend on the system of 304 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: exchange papers. They could mail newspapers to each other free 305 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: because of US postal law, and so they would take 306 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: news stories from other people's papers and put them in 307 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: their own paper. 308 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: So like a wire service. 309 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: It's like a wire service or not, unlike Twitter or 310 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: Facebook or Instagram, right, And sometimes they would say, well, 311 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: this is from the New Orleans pickyun but often they 312 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: would just slap them in there in the way that 313 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: when we read Facebook, we may not know where that 314 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: information comes from exactly. And Strang was realized, I mean 315 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 2: a lot of people realized the import of this. In 316 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: one way, they realized that New York and Washington could 317 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: now reach the whole country and the provinces. Strang realized 318 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: it worked the other way that from this little place 319 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: on Beaver Island, he could reach New York, Washington in 320 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: the whole country. 321 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: So he was brilliant at manipulating the media. 322 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: The first thing he did when he got to both 323 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: of his utopian colonies was to start a newspaper, Wow. 324 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: And he was very good writer of a certain kind. 325 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 2: I mean, he's very good wordsmith, Kate. As a journalist, 326 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: you'd have respect. I had respect. And he was very 327 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: good at putting out newspapers. And so then he'd send 328 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: these newspapers out all over the country, and sure enough 329 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: stories would start appearing about this wonderful utopian colony on 330 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 2: this island. This was also the age of P. D. Barnum, 331 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 2: and Strang was very much like Barnum. I mean, I'm 332 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: sure he knew about Barnum, and I think at one 333 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 2: point copied, you know, a book a little bit after Barnum. 334 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 2: He had this American Museum in New York, which was 335 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 2: basically a museum of curiosities and oddities and freaks. Barnum 336 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: would display a mermaid famously at the American Museum, and 337 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: people would pay good money to go see it, and 338 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: a lot of them would come out saying, well, that 339 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 2: isn't really a mermaid that's a monkey. 340 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 3: Tied to or stitch to a fish. 341 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: And Barnum's response was not, Oh my god, no, you're 342 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: so wrong. How dare you say that? I'm going to 343 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 2: sue you for libel? He was like, really, you don't 344 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: think it's a mermaid. Well, I'll tell you what. Why 345 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 2: don't you come back tomorrow and bring your family and 346 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: pay for tickets at the American Museum again. 347 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: And see what Rama thinks. Does she think that's a mermaid? 348 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: Yes? 349 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: And so Strang was a little bit like that. He 350 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 3: would plant these stories. 351 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: I mean, at one point in this county hand in Wisconsin, 352 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 2: there were stories on the east coast that it had 353 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: a population if I think, one hundred thousand. And it's 354 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: not clear that he planted that, but it's it's quite 355 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: possible that he did. And so he was sort of 356 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: brilliant at manipulating this new system in the way, for instance, 357 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: that a Russian troll farm might be brilliant at manipulating Facebook, 358 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: because he had a clear understanding and way ahead of 359 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: his time I think of how that technology worked. One 360 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: of the things I've really been thinking about since I 361 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: wrote the book is how often con men are just 362 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 2: technologically a little bit ahead of the rest of us. 363 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 2: There's a wonderful book called Charlatan. It's about this guy, 364 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 2: doctor Brinkley, who was the goat testicle doctor in the 365 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: nineteen I'm not making this up during the Depression and before, 366 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: convinced thousands of American men who were insecure about impotence 367 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: and their sexual performance that what they needed was to 368 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: have goat testicles sewed into their scrotums. 369 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: Ah. 370 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: And the thing about doctor Brinkley that was so brilliant 371 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: is that he was eventually kicked out of the AMA 372 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: or denounced by the AMA, and actually banned from the 373 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: US in terms of broadcast. But he is now known 374 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: not just as a brilliant con man and a lot 375 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: of people died as a result of his goat testicles 376 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: the goat testicles, yeah, but also as a found of 377 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: early radio, as a pioneer. He started this huge station, 378 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: first in Kansas and then on the Mexican border when 379 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: he was banned from broadcasting in Kansas. Among other things, 380 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: he's considered one of the great early pioneers of country 381 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 2: music programming on radio. So, like Strang, I think a 382 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: lot of these guys it's not even that they have 383 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 2: great technical knowledge. It's just that they have this sort 384 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 2: of Marshall mccluan ability to see how media is gonna 385 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: change things. 386 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: It's an intuition. It seems like. 387 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: Like a brilliant kind of big picture kind of thinker. 388 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that was fun about 389 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: writing about Strang is that he was nobody's fool. I mean, 390 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 2: I think he was a narcissist, and if I had 391 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 2: to vote conman or profit, I'd definitely vote Conman. 392 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: We're talking with Miles Harvey about nineteenth century confidence man 393 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: Joseph Strang and his power persuasion within the Mormon Church, 394 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: and I wondered to him why Strength did all of this? 395 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: What is the motivation for him? Is it purely money? 396 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: We get into some of his illegal activities, but surely 397 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: are easier ways than convincing thousands of people to follow 398 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: you to Michigan. Is there money in this? 399 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 3: I think there was money for a while. 400 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: This is what's so great about Strength, because he's such 401 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: a contradiction in this way, again, this mix of idealism 402 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: and opportunism. So on the one hand, I think there's 403 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 2: the sheer joy of having people think you're a profit. 404 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: He was, in fact running a pirate colony. Part of 405 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: that was just to feed people on the island. But 406 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: he certainly had some wealth for a while. Also, he 407 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 2: had by the time he died, five wives. 408 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 3: I have no. 409 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: Idea to what degree he believed that that was his 410 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 2: religious duty and to what degree that was some sort 411 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 2: of pleasurable thing to him. I wouldn't comment on that. 412 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: You know, he got power, and he loved power. Sometimes 413 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: he used power for good. For instance, he was elected 414 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: twice to the Michigan Legislature. 415 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: Did he get in fraudulently, You bet he did. 416 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: But once he got there, and this is one of 417 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 2: the things it's just so mysterious about this guy and 418 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 2: so interesting, is you know, this guy was a lifelong 419 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 2: abolitionist and once he got to the Michigan legislature. First 420 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: of all, he really impressed even his fiercest opponents, right, 421 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 2: they were like, boy, this guy's smart. You know, he's 422 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: a trained lawyer. He knows how the parliamentary system works. 423 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 2: He's really good at cutting deals with people. Wow, he's 424 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 2: an impressive guy. We wouldn't have expected that. But he 425 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 2: also fought hard for the rights of African Americans, Strang's 426 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: abolitionism is the one true belief I know he had, 427 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: because it was the one thing he did which wasn't 428 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: in his best interest. 429 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: Totally altruistic basically, right. 430 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, And at a time when so he his second 431 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 2: term was when the Republicans, who are abolitionists, sweep to 432 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: power in Michigan. It was pretty much the start of 433 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 2: the Republican Party in the United States. 434 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 3: Very exciting time. 435 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: And Strang's a Democrat, a lifetime Democrat, and he works 436 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 2: with them hard on securing, among other things, what's called 437 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: a personal Liberty Law, which was to undercut the Fugitive 438 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 2: Slave Act and make it harder to take African Americans 439 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: back to the South. 440 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 3: And at one point he spoke on the floor of. 441 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: The Michigan Legislature for two hours about the rights of 442 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 2: African Americans. But that didn't please his own party at all, 443 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: and the Republicans weren't that impressed either, because they had 444 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: the numbers, they didn't need Strang. And so it really 445 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 2: he was shooting himself in the foot by doing it. 446 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 1: And yet he did it, and he might have been 447 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: risking within his own group of people of followers, right, 448 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm assuming not everyone shared those views. 449 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: No, and Strang had African American members of his church 450 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 2: I think one hundred and thirty years before there were 451 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 2: officially African American members of the mainstream Mormon church. So 452 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: he's really kind of impressed in that way. And so 453 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 2: there's this dark side to him, evil side to him, 454 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 2: but there's also this altruistic. 455 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 3: Side to him. It's one of the things that made 456 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: him so much fun to write about. 457 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you, at this point in the story, 458 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: all I'm hearing is a guy who's a sweet talker, 459 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: who's doing nice things for people of color because of 460 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: his own personal beliefs, who is saying I will take 461 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: care of you to a group of followers, and he 462 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: takes him to Michigan. I'm not seeing a dark side 463 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: so far. 464 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 3: Let me give you an example. 465 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: In eighteen forty nine and eighteen fifty he traveled all 466 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: over the East Coast with a young man who we 467 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: have a photograph of in his suit, pretty looking young 468 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 2: man who he introduced to everyone as his nephew and 469 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: personal secretary. In fact, this person was named Elvira Field, 470 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: and she was Strang's first what they call plural wife 471 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: in other words, he was already married to a woman 472 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: from when he was a young man. Strang didn't want 473 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: his wife to know about this other wife. He'd also 474 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: been on the record for years as an anti polygamist, 475 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 2: and so his decision was to travel with this woman 476 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: dressed in man's clothing. 477 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 3: Did they fool everyone? No, they did not kate. 478 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: Some people were like, why is Stranging traveling with a 479 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: woman in man's clothing? Oh, let me guess they're going 480 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: back to the hotel and sharing a bed together. But 481 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: other people were fooled, and part of that had to 482 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 2: do with the semiotics of dress. At the time, women 483 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 2: were wearing these huge signifiers of femininity, you know, all 484 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 2: these petticoats, etcetera, these ornate clothes, and I think some 485 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: people just could not accept the idea of a woman 486 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: in man's clothes. So this whole gender stuff that's really 487 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: really fascinating. But I think Strang also just got a kick, 488 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: got a fooling people. It got some thrill of the 489 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: power of I'm not saying he was laughing. I'm saying 490 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 2: he did this enough where it was clear that there 491 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: was some thrill. And so after that tour is when 492 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: the summer of eighteen fifty, on a ceremony on Beaver Island, 493 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: he is announced king of Earth in heaven. 494 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 3: He actually had you know. 495 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: There's scepters involved and all sorts of ornate stuff in 496 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 2: a half finished log hut. This went out all over 497 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: the country and a lot of people laughed at it. 498 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: The US government took it seriously. 499 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: Miller Fillmore, the US President, eventually took it seriously enough 500 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 2: where he's sent in the US Navy's first iron hulled 501 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 2: warship to raid Beaver Island and bring Strang. 502 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: Back to justice. And again, I am not making this. 503 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: Up, because America will never see another king. I'm assuming 504 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: is what the what the threat was, that's right. 505 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 2: Well, I think it was just this idea of a 506 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: quas independent kingdom on US soil. And of course, you know, 507 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: by that time, there were a lot of complaints about 508 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: him literally launching raids on places like Chicago. His boats 509 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: would sweep down and people would sweep ashore and start 510 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: stealing stuff. They took him very seriously, and I think 511 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: he just also was, yeah, kind of a threat to 512 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 2: our sense of self as Americans. You know, how can 513 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 2: this guy get away with it? On the frontier. And 514 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: it's because you could get away with a lot. 515 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 3: On the frontier. 516 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 2: It was an in between place where partly rules applied 517 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 2: and partly they didn't, and all sorts of forgers, con men, 518 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: thieves of all kinds were drawn to the frontier for 519 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: that reason. But in eighteen fifty one, the Navy in 520 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: Vader Strang's Island. In fact, the anticipated battle between the 521 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 2: stranged forces and the militia guys on the navy ship 522 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 2: did not materialize. Strength surrendered and encouraged some of his 523 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: followers to surrender, and it looked like it was going 524 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: to be the end of the story. Right, He's put 525 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 2: up on federal trial in Detroit. 526 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: For what what are the charges? 527 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: Specifically, they tried getting him on the sexy charges first, 528 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 2: which was turned out to be a mistake. 529 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 3: Counterfeiting. 530 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: Wait, counterfeiting is a sexy charge. 531 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: There was no mass murder involved in this story, So 532 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: all I got for you is a killing and a 533 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: con man and possibly some counterfeiting. 534 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: Such funny. 535 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a good lawyer, and he gave a 536 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 2: really good speech on his own behalf, and I think 537 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 2: the prosecution kind of screwed up. Squatting on government property 538 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 2: on Beaver Round that had been until right before he 539 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: got there, occupied by Native Americans who had just recently 540 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: turned it over to the US government in a treaty. 541 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: And he was mining the place for lumber. So those 542 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: are the charges. They could have got him on poaching 543 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: for lumber, but they didn't, and Strang was found shockingly innocent. 544 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: And so you know, one of the delicious ironies of 545 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 2: many delicious ironies in the story is that when Millard 546 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: Fillmore left office in eighteen fifty three, the king who 547 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: the president tried to oust from power, was still very 548 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: much in power, and that experience did not discourage him 549 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 2: from continuing his nefarious operations out of Beaver Island. He 550 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: would send ships out and they would stop at ports 551 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: on Lake Michigan. At night, they'd come in and they'd 552 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: do these kind of lightning raids and they would steal stuff. 553 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: And he also sent groups out through the countryside all 554 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: over the Midwest horse stealing. Horses were just hugely valuable 555 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: and central items, and so it was a big deal. 556 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: And one of his very top aides is caught horse 557 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 2: stealing in this little town in Ohio. And Strang comes 558 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: to town and there's a like many local newspapers at 559 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 2: the time, there's a wonderfully funny editor who's a great writer. 560 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: It just makes it so much fun to read these things. 561 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: Who says, oh, King Strang is in town. I wonder 562 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: what four I should wonder if that guy's going to 563 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: stay in jail? And sure enough, eventually there was a 564 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: jail break. Strang's lieutenant escaped and returned to Beaver Island. 565 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: His level of manipulation extends to his personal life also, right, 566 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: you said that he married several women. 567 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, he came in as posing himself as the anti 568 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: polygamist prophet, and he drew some of the people who 569 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: joined his church joined specifically for that they'd been living 570 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: in Nauvoo and saw what was going on there. He 571 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: eventually married a total of five women, four of whom 572 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: were pregnant at the time of his murder. In eighteen 573 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: fifty six, viral Field, the woman who had dressed in 574 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 2: ment clothing. She and other women on Beaver Island began 575 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: wearing pantaloons, which very quickly became a symbol of the 576 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: women's movement. Right, we call them Bloomers because Amelia Bloomer, 577 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: one of the great proto feminists started wearing them, and 578 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: it was this national scan. It was a symbol of 579 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: a woman who was asserting her authority and rights. Well, 580 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: the women on Beaver Island were wearing these a year 581 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: before Amelia Bloomer donned them. These pantaloons became a big 582 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 2: deal on Beaver Island and Strang ordered all women to 583 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 2: wear pantaloons. 584 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 3: I think it was him asserting his power. 585 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: There wasn't this word then, but we know from modern 586 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: cults which were just coming in at this time, and 587 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: Strang's group certainly qualifies, is that one of the ways 588 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: leaders assert authority is through enforcing dress codes. Well, people 589 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: resisted that dress code and it became this symbol of 590 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: whether you were four Strang or against him. If you 591 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: wore Bloomers or if you encourage your wife to wear Bloomers, 592 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: you were. 593 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 3: For him, and if you didn't, you were again against him. 594 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: And if that sounds goofy, I just would refer to 595 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: the way masks have become politicized in our own time. 596 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 2: But I also think polygamy was the undercurrent of it. 597 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: There were only a few of the leaders on Beaver 598 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: Island who were polygamous, and there was great resentment. 599 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: The Bloomers. 600 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 2: The Pantaloons gave people an easier way of expressing their 601 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 2: rage towards strength, and eventually there was this conspiracy against him. 602 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: We had this build up where he is doing things 603 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: that some people don't like the state of Michigan doesn't 604 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: appreciate him having this colony. So how do we get 605 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: from that to murder? 606 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 3: There were some guys on the islands. 607 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 2: He drew all these sort of comment figures to the island, 608 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: and some former true believers became, you know, disaffected, as 609 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: happens in these groups, and really angry with him, furious 610 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 2: with him, and they started conspiring to kill him, and 611 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 2: eventually they went out. 612 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 3: To Chicago and elsewhere to recruit support. 613 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 2: Then they armed up and came back, and in eighteen 614 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: fifty six, the USS Michigan, which is that iron hulled 615 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: warship that had raided the island earlier, shows up on 616 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: Beaver Island, and by this point Strang has sort of 617 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: a friendly relationship with the captain. It's kind of no 618 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: big deal that it's there. They're just kind of checking 619 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 2: in it and be like the local policeman knocking. 620 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 3: On your door saying is everything okay? 621 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: But in this case, I think there was clear involvement 622 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: in the US government's part. So Strang sees that ship 623 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: coming and he hadn't been expecting it, and apparently, according 624 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 2: to one report, he said to some followers, this is 625 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: not good. But the guy who ran the ship sent 626 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: or representative down to get Strang and said, say, hey, 627 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: bring Strang back, I want to talk to him. The 628 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: guy goes to Strang's house, Strang goes with him. They 629 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 2: walk away arm in arm, which is sort of a 630 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: symbol of friendship in the nineteenth century, and they walk 631 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: a short way to the boat, and so on the 632 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 2: pier at Beaver Island are these huge rows and rows 633 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 2: and piles of lumber. They would sell this to the 634 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: steamboats and sort of in a tunnel of lumber. Strang 635 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: walks in with this guy, arm and arm towards the ship, 636 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: and a couple of followers follow him, and all of 637 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: a sudden open fire and starts shooting, and they don't 638 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 2: put him out of his misery at first, so one 639 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: of them beats him with the butt of his gun 640 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: and still doesn't put him out of his misery. And 641 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: these guys run aboard the USS Michigan and escape and 642 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: they're never prosecuted. No one ever went to jail for it. 643 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: He initially didn't die, he was paralyzed from the waist down, 644 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: and he was taken back to Burlington, Wisconsin, his first 645 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 2: utopian colony, where he finally died in eighteen fifty six. 646 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: A few weeks after he was shot. Some of his 647 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: wives and followers were shocked. 648 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 3: They thought that he. 649 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: Was going to be born again and that he was 650 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: going to come back to them in the flesh. 651 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 3: But it didn't happen. As it turns out. 652 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: With the leader out of power, there's this vigilante raid 653 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: on the island and it was brutal. The Mormons are 654 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: forced into boats with only the clothes eye on their backs. 655 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: All their possessions are taken. They have so many enemies 656 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: in the area now. They've alienated all the local fishermen, 657 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: the Native Americans, but also just all sorts of other people, 658 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 2: and so they're dispersed in the Midwest and Strang's church 659 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: was never really reformed. There's still some Strangites living, and 660 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: I met at least one of them in Burlington, Wisconsin. 661 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: I've met some others online, but he didn't name a successor, 662 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: and I don't think there could have been a successor. 663 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 2: I mean, this is kind of a singular human being. 664 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 2: The church was Strang, and I don't think there was 665 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 2: a way to easily transfer it to someone else. 666 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: This story, what does it represent in the tapestry of 667 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: American storytelling. This is an odd man who was a 668 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: really good talker, who manipulated what turned out to be 669 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: not a huge group, but he manipulated them to such 670 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: an extent that it's alarming. If there's a James Strang 671 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty six, there certainly are many James Strangs now, 672 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: and what's wrong with that. 673 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 2: One of the things that fascinated me about this is 674 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 2: I became convinced that there are times in history, in 675 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: American history where these sorts of people thrive, and those 676 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 2: times are times, you know, like our own frankly, where 677 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 2: we're not quite sure of our bearings. 678 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 3: You know, people say to me, oh, you know. 679 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 2: We've never been so divided, and I'm like, well, I 680 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 2: got to tell you, yeah, before the Civil War we 681 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 2: were more divided, and during the Civil War we were 682 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 2: more divided. 683 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 3: But I think there is a comparison there. 684 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 2: I think that we live in a time where there's 685 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: just been radical change in our culture, and I think 686 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 2: people like Strang are always going to survive in those 687 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 2: sorts of moments. 688 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: So we talked about some of the good. What is 689 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: his legacy within the Mormon Church? Is there is there 690 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: a footnote? 691 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 2: You know, at one time in eighteen fifty three, Strang 692 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 2: had it for Washington and there were rumors and bring 693 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 2: them Along's top lieutenants were worried about it that Strang 694 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: was going to be named governor of Utah. 695 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 3: So the idea that you know. 696 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: He yeah, he's not even in you how did that happen? 697 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 2: A new president had come in and Strang was going 698 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: to DC. And I'm not even sure he made it, 699 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: because he made an ill fated retrip to his hometown 700 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: in western New York and was exposed as a massive 701 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 2: fraud and thrown in jail and all sorts of other things, 702 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 2: and I think he might have just been a hasty 703 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 2: retreat back to Biaver Island. I can't find any evidence 704 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 2: that he made it to DC, but people were very 705 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: worried about this. So as far as his legacy goes, 706 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: there have been good books on Strang before, but they 707 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 2: always treated to him like a footnote to Mormon history, 708 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 2: which is what the church I think thinks of him. 709 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: If that, I saw him as a lightning rod for 710 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 2: brilliant movements and crazy religions of the mid nineteenth century. 711 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 2: And so to me it wasn't a Mormon story, but 712 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 2: a very very American story. 713 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: Well it's sort of the American dream, a little twisted, right. 714 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: He is just someone who is a good talker with 715 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: a dream. I am also drawn to characters who are complex. 716 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: I'm so interested in the forked road and at what 717 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: point is this person who could have been president, who 718 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: had that sort of charisma and intelligence and drive, when 719 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: did they take the wrong fork? 720 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 3: I love your metaphor of a forked road. 721 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 2: You know, I often think about Straying in comparison to 722 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln, because these are total contemporaries, and their lives 723 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: went along parallel paths for a long time. Both were 724 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: country guys. This was a great period of self made men, 725 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: as they called him self made individuals, and these guys 726 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: were both prime examples. So both start in these small towns. 727 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: They're just farm boys, I mean, you know, with no 728 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 2: hopes of becoming famous. They both become country lawyers, which 729 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: means they're educated with other lawyers, not in law school. 730 00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 2: They both become postmasters, which are really important jobs, and 731 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: you really learn a lot about the country from being 732 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: a postmaster. They both were state representatives, and they both 733 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 2: were these total self actualizers. And I often think about 734 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 2: how Lincoln was able to take that and use it 735 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 2: for greatness and for the good, not just for his 736 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 2: own greatness, and Strang, who had some of the same impulses, 737 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 2: for instance, about abolition, couldn't do it. 738 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 3: I don't have a clear answer. 739 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 2: I would say one thing is clear that Strang was 740 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 2: more rigid than Lincoln. Lincoln could adapt to situations better, 741 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 2: changing his views on what to do about the flight 742 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 2: of African Americans, for instance. But I also think Strang 743 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 2: was a con man who was doing stuff for himself. Yeah, 744 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: not that Lincoln didn't have an ego or enjoy power, 745 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 2: but Lincoln was doing it for the rest of us. 746 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: And within the system. He was willing to work within 747 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: the system, and Strang created his own system. 748 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: I would say to people that my own time's health 749 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 2: me understand Strang because I live in a time where 750 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 2: truth is very very much contested, but Strang helped me 751 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 2: understand my own times. That was one of the real 752 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: blessings of many of this project. I felt like I 753 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: had a little clearer view of this period where truth 754 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 2: is very very unstable in my own life. I had 755 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 2: a clearer view of how and why that works. 756 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 757 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 4: The day that Bogram swept into Chipbox scooping up the 758 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 4: two hundred and seventy six girls was the day like 759 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 4: every other day. 760 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: This is a. 761 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 4: Deeply, deeply religious group of girls who ultimately believe with 762 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 4: their faith that they would make it home. 763 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: If you you love historical true crime, please check out 764 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: my books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This 765 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: has been an exactly right tenfold more media production. Alexis 766 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: and Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. 767 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 768 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 769 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: design the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff, 770 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook. 771 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: At tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 772 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 773 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads. And if you 774 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 775 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 776 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and 777 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 778 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. 779 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 4: Yeah,