1 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sex Podcast. 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: My guest today is legendary music producer, philanthropists, the straw 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: that stirs the drink, Bob Ezra Bob. That's very funny. 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: I've never had that intro people, the straw that stirs 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: the drake, like all the people. That's what they said 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: about Reggie Jackson when he joined the Yankees. He said 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: that about himself. And you're so different from other record 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: producers in that especially people who started when you started. 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Most of them are done okay, but you have ventured 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: into other areas and I certainly know that you are 11 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: literally the straw that stirs to drink. You make things happen, 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: You make music rising happen. You made a lot of 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: other things. We'll get into some of that, but right 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: now you are aware of Bob. Right now, I'm in Toronto, 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: which you know, which is where jan and I came. 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: We were we were actually in the Bahamas when things 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: started to blow up. I was writing for the book, 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: you know that. I was that I've been threatening to 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: write for years, so I was writing and then, um, 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: you know, one night, she just said, you know, I 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: don't I don't think we ought to get stuck here. 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: This could be very bad. So we came up to Toronto, um, 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: where we have a home, and and then they shut 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: all the borders. I was going to head back down 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: to Nashville, but that's just not gonna happen for a while. 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: How much time do you spend? Weird? How much time 27 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: are you in Toronto and Nashville on the road at 28 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: this point in time? Yes? Yes? Okay? Someone, uh, you 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: know what to listen. Um, I love I love our 30 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: home here in Toronto and um and I love our 31 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: place in the Bahamas because it's just a little place. 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: But I love the ocean and just looking out my 33 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: window at the ocean every morning is beautiful. But I 34 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: love I love Nashville for working and um and and 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: living too. Do you know it's a happening city, as 36 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people. They're doing some really 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: exciting and interesting things. And it's really easy to work there. 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: It's perhaps the easiest place I've ever recorded. Amplify that 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: for us. Well, you know, first of all, um, it's 40 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: a it's a music recording town. So New York is 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: a music town, but it's a music offices town. And 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: business town. There is a lot of music going on 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: there that's being recorded, but it isn't the backbone of 44 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: the whole place, whereas you know, Nashville was really uh, 45 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: it's really got three industries. It's got insurance, healthcare and 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: music as the primary industries of Nashville. And and in 47 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: in Nashville there are studios every fifty paces. It's it's 48 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: quite remarkable. At least thing you know in my neighborhood, 49 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: like the two doors down as a studio across the 50 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 1: street directly as the studio it's Ron Fair Studio. Ron 51 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: moved there, and right behind him is uh is Blackbird, 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: which is maybe the biggest studio in Nashville and certainly 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: the largest mic collection in Nashville, possibly the world. And 54 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: and you've got to uh, you have a cadre of 55 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: really professional session musicians, like the top of the food chain. 56 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: And these these were all people who you know, they 57 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: became virtuosic and uh and probably a genre was too 58 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: small for them. And and and yet if you're not 59 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: in a band or or doing something as a recording artist, 60 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: it's hard to make a lot of money. But they 61 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: discovered that their talents are very valuable to people like me, 62 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: and and country artists who are solo artists, and and 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: pop singers who don't have a band, and things like that. 64 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: So we hire these people to make the music. And 65 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: and you can get a band together of people who 66 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: are literally the best, the best at their instrument in 67 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: the world in Nashville and I often do you know, 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: I often have like an amazing group of players who 69 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: are relatively unknown to the outside world, but who in 70 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: the music world are legendary. So we have a we 71 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: have a room full of legends. Okay, just a little deeper, 72 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: because the session musician world has died in Los Angeles. 73 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: Can these people you've called to do sessions? Can they 74 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: make a living in Nashville being session people? Oh, they 75 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: can make a very good living in Nashville being session musicians. 76 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: Some of them are, you know, some of them are 77 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: making a significant amount of money. Others are having to 78 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: augment that with you know, other forms of playing, like 79 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: going out on the road with certain artists or playing, um, 80 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, after hours and at shows within Nashville. But 81 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: you can make a living in Nashville and not be 82 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: the featured performer, which is hard to say about just 83 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: about any place else. And there's lots of them. They 84 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: come from all over the world there, you know, Like 85 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: on the first session, the first um uh you know, 86 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: first session that I did in Nashville where I used 87 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: session players, one of the guitar players was a kid 88 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: from Russia who was like a shredder. He was an 89 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: awesome guitar player. But he found, you know, that he 90 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: could actually make a living coming to Nashville. He was 91 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: an insane reader and and uh and he had a 92 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: great memory, and he found he found a part for 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: himself right away. And and there are some drummers in 94 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: that town that uh, you know, I would put up 95 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: against the greatest drummers and the greatest bands that we've 96 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: ever seen. And and the same thing with you know, 97 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: keyboard players. And and if you need someone to play 98 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: a sack butt as you often do, but you can 99 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: pick up the musicians directory and there's a dude in 100 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: Nashville who can play the sack but you know, or 101 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: and or there's a there's a woman who can clog 102 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: dance if you need the sound of you know, dancing 103 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: on your record. You know. Um, so there's anything you 104 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: can think of, Like one day I was producing somebody, 105 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: and I just had this crazy notion. It was the 106 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: sort of crossover track. And this was before um this 107 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: was before Mumford and Sons. But I had this idea 108 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: that I really wanted to hear lead banjo on this 109 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: pretty rocking track. So I called Bela Fleck. I said, Bella, 110 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: what are you doing this afternoon? He said, well, I 111 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, I got a meeting at five o'clock on 112 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: music Row, but I'm not busy. Now what's up? And 113 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: I said, can you come over? I I need a 114 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: banjo solo. He was there within an hour, and the 115 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: and the people I was working with when he walked 116 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: in the door, they just looked at me like, you 117 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: gotta be kidding. But but that's the town that it is. 118 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: Emmy Lou Harris loves to do backing vocals really for example, yes, 119 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: she's and and you know and and there's lots of uh, 120 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, very well known people who who I mean? 121 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: Vince Gill plays lead guitar on one of the Alice 122 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: Cooper Cooper tracks from an album years ago. You know, 123 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: I invited Vince to come on and he shredded. He 124 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: was unbelievable. He was so good that that Alice's touring band, 125 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: which has you know, professional shredders in it. They could 126 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: not cop his solo, so that song never went into 127 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: never went into the show. Okay, you certainly, as we 128 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: go deeper, have been in many genres, but you're most 129 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: famous for the rock genre. Nashville was historically a country town. 130 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: Uh is it more types of music and Nashville now 131 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: or the players can do everything. How does your work 132 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: meld with the Nashville scene. Most of the players, as 133 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: I said, there are people who come from elsewhere, and 134 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: a lot of them, including Dan Huff, who's one of 135 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: the top producers of all time in Nashville. Um, you know, 136 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: they come from rock bands that maybe didn't you know, 137 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: didn't quite make it, or they did make it and 138 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: then they stopped, or they come from jazz, or they 139 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: come from classical. There's a great string player in Nashville 140 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: that can do anything you can think of. You you 141 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: need anything that's got strings on it, he can play it. 142 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: And he's a classical violinist who moved to Nashville and 143 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: now he's doing country fiddle and and but at the 144 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: same time he can do heart anger fiddle, which is 145 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: a Norwegian instrument. He can play cello and it's just 146 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: anything you want. So um. So you have players who 147 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: are very versatile. Okay, Certainly in the old days for 148 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: all the cockers like us, you know, you have to 149 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: practice in order to break into the scene. Supposedly Dwayne 150 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: Almond took his guitar even to the bathroom. Certainly you 151 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: have the elite players in Nashville. But do you think 152 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: this is a problem today where people can promote their 153 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: music online, that they're not as skilled in their instruments 154 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: as they once were. I don't think that's quite true. 155 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: I think that the operative words are their own instrument. 156 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: And what's happened in the world is that instruments have 157 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: changed and kids play. They play computers, they play um sequencers, 158 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: they they play drum machines and pads and samplers and 159 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: anything they can get their hands on. And they make 160 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: these very crafty, uh compositions that you know, they show 161 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: that they can play their medium, whatever that medium might be. 162 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: And I think they're easily as good as any kid 163 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: who is wood shedding on lead guitar when I was 164 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen years old and then bleeding into another 165 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: element where we have commonality. Now you talk to a 166 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: lot of these great players, and it turns out they 167 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: learned how to play in school. Like Nathan East, he 168 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: learned how to play in school. I know that something 169 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: you have a great affinity for. Can you tell us 170 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: about that? I think that in cultures where music was 171 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: ingrained as a part of learning experience, and where people 172 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: were actually taught how to express themselves using music, that 173 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: you who ended up with people who had um you know, 174 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: not just a greater affinity for the for the art form, 175 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: but a different way of seeing and thinking and hearing 176 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: and expressing, you know, a different way of speaking. They 177 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: found out they don't have to use words, they use 178 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,359 Speaker 1: sound and stuff. And once you start practicing a new language, 179 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: once you really get into it, it becomes like an infection. 180 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: You can't get rid of it. You dream about it, 181 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: you think about it, you live with it all the time. 182 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: And we're missing that in North America now, we're missing 183 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: that in in a way that many European nations are. 184 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: You know, they still have I mean, why are the 185 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: Swedes so successful in America in pop music? Why is 186 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: why is worldwide pop music defined by Swedish people? It's 187 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: because they have a phenomenal music education system and it 188 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: goes beyond their regular school, beyond high school. There's a 189 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: post graduate uh, whole set of postgraduate schools that you 190 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: can go to to learn about songwriting and produce, sing 191 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: and and uh and how to get better at the 192 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: instrument that you play. Here in in North America, we've got, like, 193 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: you know, a few schools that people can go to 194 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: where this is true. But for the most part, music 195 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: has been removed. It's no longer considered to be UM 196 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: an essential course. It's considered to be an elective. And 197 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: you know that with shrinking budgets and school boards that 198 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: are just trying to make ends meet, the first stuff 199 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: that goes is the you know, are all the electives, 200 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: especially the ones that require equipment and investment. So music 201 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: education has hurt a lot in North America since that 202 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: became true. When I was a kid, music was one 203 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: of the courses I had to take. By the way, 204 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: so was art and so was literature. In not in 205 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: not helping the entire child to evolve that uh, communicating 206 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: emotional passionate little being, and not in allowing them the 207 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: all the expression that's at their at their disposal. Naturally, 208 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,359 Speaker 1: while we're trying to teach them, we're kind of copyholding 209 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: them into a much much grayer, less exciting existence, and 210 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: you end up with a bunch of people who sit 211 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: in the corner and look down, whether it's at their 212 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: cell phone or their keyboard or whatever. What we really 213 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: want is people who get together and uh and share 214 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: and sing together and play together and create things together. 215 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: Because what we need right now is to create a 216 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: whole new world. Actually, you're not going to do that 217 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: with You're not gonna do that with small thinkers. What 218 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: do you need mean in terms is you talking about 219 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: specifically about music or the world at large? A whole 220 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: new I mean the world at large. I mean when 221 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: you look at what's going on in the United States, 222 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: when while we're talking, there are riots in the streets 223 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: of twenty five cities in the United States. Is a 224 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: reaction to an on camera murder, the death of someone 225 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: that we all got to watch. I'll tell you a 226 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: little story, so I don't want to throw anybody under 227 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: the bus. In fact, I'll just say that when in 228 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: a situation where I was commenting on the video of 229 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: Eric Garner being strangled to death um to someone who 230 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: was in the healthcare business. I'll just leave it that general, 231 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: I just said, I just I just looked at it 232 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: in complete disbelief, and my stomach was turning. And I 233 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: looked at the guy and I just went, can you 234 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: believe that? And he goes, no, man, he says, you know, 235 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: my friends, the policeman, he won't even go in their 236 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: neighborhoods anymore. And I just turned to the guy and 237 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: I just said, are you shipping me? You're a healthcare professional, 238 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: and that's what you got out of this. You're a 239 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: person who supposedly dedicated to saving human life, and that's 240 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 1: what you got out of this picture. And at that moment, 241 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I just realized that we have a systemic 242 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: endemic disease in our culture. And it's not just America. 243 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: People like to point fingers in America, but for you know, 244 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: it's it's happening any place where the predominant culture was 245 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: white and uh, Northern European even more so than Southern. Now. 246 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: I was in a cab once and the driver told 247 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: me in Toronto that more different languages are spoken in 248 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: Toronto than any other berg on the planet. So one 249 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: has to ask, you know, we are really inward looking 250 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: in the United States. To someone who is certainly traveling 251 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: a lot in both countries, what is the same or 252 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: different about Canada? How much time do we have about 253 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: but we don't have two hours to talk about Canada. No, 254 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: I didn't think so, but you know what, look, I 255 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: was in l A during the riots. I actually went 256 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: to work in the basement of the First Amy Church 257 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: and watts UH for months after the riots, um and 258 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: working on food distribution and other things where I thought 259 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: my efforts be more useful than being in a studio 260 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: making rock records. At that time, it was a critical moment, 261 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: wasn't it. It was a moment where we really thought 262 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: we may lose our town altogether. And then we have 263 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: this organization called Rebuild l A, which I also took 264 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: part in, and at least we recognized at the time 265 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: that we were facing massive UH, institutional and structural problems 266 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: within our society. We tried to change them. I'm saddened 267 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: by what I see now because it's clear, UH the 268 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: evidence shows we failed in Canada. The primary difference in 269 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: Canada is that there wasn't a slave trade in Canada. 270 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: There were slaves in the East Coast, by the way, 271 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: there were whole colonies of slaves, and the people don't 272 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: even know about Nova Scotia UM. And there are still 273 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: little townships that are just they're all black, they're all 274 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: African Canadian UM. But primarily the the people UH who 275 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: came from the West Indies and came from Africa came 276 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: here of their own volition, and they, you know, they 277 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: came to make a good life for themselves and for 278 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: their families and defind their fortune, just like everybody else. 279 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: And this is a nation of immigrants all the way around. 280 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: So the Canadians have tried to be what they have 281 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: referred to as a multicultural society. Sometimes it works really well. 282 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes it doesn't work very well at all. There's a 283 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: guy on TV on CTV UM who does an entertainment 284 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: show and he is UM, an African Canadian. I guess 285 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: I would call him he maybe UH a West Indian 286 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: Canadian originally, but he refers to himself as a black man. 287 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: He's a black man. Who saw that video and who 288 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: was then on the Canadian version of the View the 289 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: next day and they asked him how he felt he 290 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: started up being a media guy. He started off saying 291 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm fine and things. You know, it's really terrible. We 292 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: have to work and so, and then slowly but surely 293 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: he began to fall apart and then he lost words, 294 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: and he said, you know me, I've never at a 295 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: loss for words. And then he started to cry, and 296 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: then he started to say, you know, I don't want 297 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: to be this guy. I don't want to be the 298 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: angry black man. But the truth is I am. I'm 299 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: an angry black man because I have to watch what 300 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: I say, what I look like, what I do every 301 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: time I enter a room. And that's up here, you 302 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: know where people like to think that we're okay. It's everywhere. Uh, 303 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: it's worse in the United States because there's more polarization 304 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: right now in the US than I've ever seen anywhere. 305 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've I lived in I've lived 306 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: in the United States and million an American citizen for 307 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: decades and decades. I'm a student of America. I love America. 308 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: You know, I chose it. It didn't choose me. So 309 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: I came. I came because I wanted to be there 310 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: and and because I wanted to be active, and I 311 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: wanted to be political and I wanted to get involved. 312 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: So for me, it's very difficult to see where we 313 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: are right now. For me after after being a member 314 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: of SNICK, after marching, after you know, as I say, 315 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: working in the basement of the First aim E Church, 316 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: after after working with mentoring and after school programs, and 317 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: all the time and energy that I put in, to 318 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: have to admit to myself that a lot of this 319 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: was really not for anything at all. Okay, let's talk 320 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: about music in the era of chaos. Certainly when you 321 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: started out in the folk scene in Toronto, you're aware 322 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: of that folk music drove protests. Certainly ten years later, 323 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: eight years later, we had literally fifty years ago Kent State, 324 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: we had Crossbasels, Nash and Young, Ohio. What is music's place? 325 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: Where is music relative to the cutting edge of culture 326 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: and all these problems today? Listen, I think music has 327 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: always been the voice of the people. It's a it's 328 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: an easy way to communicate and and and it has 329 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: been since we were private primitive beings and didn't even 330 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: have words. We just sing out and somebody would would 331 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: repeat it back to us, and we knew we had 332 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: a friend. So music has always been at the forefront 333 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: of everything always and it's always told the news. It's 334 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: always had the news before the news was news. It 335 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: was I was growing up. It was a pretty comfortable 336 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: but very white environment. My dad was the first Jewish 337 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: doctor allowed on staff at the Toronto General Hospital. That 338 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: that happened in the middle fifties. In Toronto until the sixties, 339 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: we had restricted clubs where there were no Jews, no Blacks, 340 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: no not I think not even Catholics allowed, And in 341 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: Canada had residential schools. These are things where they would 342 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: take First Nation's children from their families, out of their tribe, 343 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: put them in a church run school so they could 344 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: learn to be white and Protestant or Catholic or whatever 345 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: the religio and was of the school, and they would 346 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: not let them go home, and they wouldn't let them 347 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: speak their own language. They called them residential schools. The 348 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: last one was closed in the early nineties. So there 349 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: was always here a voice that had to be heard, 350 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: and the only way it could be heard was through 351 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: all what would you would call sort of underground or 352 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: alternative media, and it was coming out of music. That 353 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: was the place. You couldn't see it on TV. You 354 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: would certainly wouldn't get it in, you know, in nice 355 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: establishments or or proper society. You got it on the streets. 356 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: You got it in on Yorkville Avenue, which during the sixties, 357 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: during the middle sixties and late sixties was kind of 358 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: the third leg of the folk stool. There was Greenwich Village, 359 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: the gas Light District, and Yorkville Village where everyone played 360 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: and people came from all over to do it. My 361 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: uncle was a half owner in a club on Yorkville, 362 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: which was a terrific advantage for me as a kid. 363 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: You know. He in fact, he played a really large 364 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: role in my life and and in turning me onto 365 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: all kinds of music and and stereo equipment and all 366 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. He was a cool dude. But 367 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: he had this club called the Penny Farthing where I 368 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: would play in the basement with braces on my teeth 369 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: badly to four or five people who couldn't afford to 370 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: sit in the main room. And and upstairs there were 371 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: artists going through, like this beautiful blonde girl from out 372 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: West called Joni Anderson, who had just come to Toronto, 373 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: had not yet married Chuck Mitchell, had just found out 374 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: she was pregnant. When I spoke to Joni about it, 375 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: she said, did you know I was pregnant? I said, 376 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: I would have married you anyway. I was, you know, 377 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: I was so but she was older than me. You 378 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: know that she wasn't looking at at the kid with 379 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: the braces in the basement. But you know, jose Feliciano 380 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: played his first North American gig in that room and 381 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: lots of other people. And the next door there was 382 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: a band called um the I think the band was 383 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: called the Minor Bird, and that was Neil Young Rick James, 384 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: and they were a soul band. They like horns and 385 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: and dance moves and everything. And at a couple of 386 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: doors down from there, and then we had a band 387 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: called the Sparrow, which was John k Uh and Mars 388 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: Bonfire who went on to become Stepan Wolf. But but 389 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 1: around the corner, these two um African American folk singers 390 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: called Joe and Edtie played their first Canadian gig. They 391 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: came up there. They were protest singers, like in the 392 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: real sense of the word. They had a song on 393 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: the radio called There's a Meeting here Tonight. I don't 394 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: know if you remember that. You may be too young. 395 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: We've talked about it before, so that's all I know. It, okay, 396 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: so um. And they had stories to tell, and they 397 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: spoke with a Southern drawl, and they were just from 398 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: another planet. Were listening to them play at the same time. 399 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: My uncle also discovered Lonnie Johnson in the in the 400 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: in the men's toilet of a Chicago hotel where he 401 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: had been hiding out for almost twenty years from a fraternity. 402 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: My uncle, the lawyer, said him, you know, Lonnie, there 403 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: is a statue of limitations. But he wouldn't believe him. 404 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: He didn't want to come out of the toilet. So 405 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: my uncle said, okay, I'm gonna bring you to Canada. 406 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: They can't extradite you from Canada for a paternity student. 407 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: So he came and they built him a club across 408 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: the street from from the Penny Farthing, the main club. 409 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: They called it Lonnie's Place, where he played the last 410 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: three and a half or four years of his life. 411 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: He died in Drew And I used to go over 412 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: there and watch him play and and and he would 413 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: tell stories. But but I mean, this was a living 414 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: this was an emblem and a kind of you know, 415 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: human diorama almost right there in front of you of 416 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: the American South and the African American experience in the 417 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: American South as as told through the Blues. And so 418 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: what role do his music play like I wouldn't have 419 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: known any of that. What role do his music play? 420 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: How does the edge? Let me be very specific, we 421 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: had the riot you mentioned earlier. The light went off 422 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: over my head. Everything nice Ta was saying, everything n 423 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,959 Speaker 1: w A we're saying was true. Uh, can we point 424 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: to a similar situation in today's music? Wow? You know, 425 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: I don't want to be the old guy who's complaining 426 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: about what what you know, the new artists are doing 427 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: or not doing. I find an absence of community in 428 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: pretty much everything. It's not just music. But um, I 429 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: don't find people standing up. I don't find people speaking out. 430 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: I hear very little that that makes you sit back 431 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: and catch your breath because it is so powerful and relevant. 432 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: I haven't heard of I haven't heard a song like 433 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: the Hurricane, you know, in I don't know decades. And 434 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: is that because us we've become so self centered? And 435 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: maybe you know, and maybe the President of the United 436 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: States is the perfect you know, the perfect representation of it. 437 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: He's our avatar. He's an avatar of all of our 438 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: worst impulses. We're all we're all uh narcissistic, we're all 439 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: self involved. We're all me first and then everything else after. 440 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: And everybody wants to get rich. Like I don't see 441 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: the same uh political compulsion firing music up now that 442 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: I did when I was a kid. Like most of 443 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: these people that I'm talking about, and people that are 444 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: very famous now and got famous then, they just wanted 445 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: to be heard and they wanted to speak out against 446 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: fill in the blank. Okay, And what do you think, 447 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: even though it's hard to predict, will be the result 448 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: of the today's protests in cities is supposed to the 449 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: localized riots in Los Angeles in the nineties. Well, it 450 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: can go. It can go one of two ways, Bob. 451 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: This can be Uh, this could be the cathartic moment. 452 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: This could be the moment where everyone realizes how desperate 453 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: a situation this is for the African American population, just 454 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: the non white population of America, but particularly them. Since 455 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: the first African was brought to the to American shores 456 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: in chains and given an animal name, So maybe that's 457 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: what happens that we all learn um and and then 458 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: we topple the people who are driving division and and 459 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: driving us away from being able to solve our cultural 460 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: and social problems. And we elect somebody who's actually got 461 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: a heart and is empathetic and will will help change occur. 462 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: That might happen, or we may find that with more 463 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: and more destruction of private property that people start worrying 464 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: about themselves again and they start leaning to the law 465 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: and order ticket. We've seen it so many times before. 466 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: And he stands up and says, I'm the only one 467 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: that can save you. Like all these governors, these democrats, 468 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: these people, they're you know, they're just a bunch of 469 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: wet noodles. They should be thrown out of office. And 470 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: when we need here is some angry you know, we 471 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: need some vicious dogs and big guns. And as much 472 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: as I would hate that that might be the result, 473 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: I fear that it may be. Well, that's certainly what 474 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: happened in sight with Nixon getting elected. But let's go 475 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: back to Toronto. So your father was a doctor. How 476 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: many kids in the family, um, five biological kids and 477 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: three adopted. I have to ask the three were adopted, 478 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: what was the motivation what happened there. I think it's 479 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: under the heading of some guys never learned. Um. No, 480 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: it's just my parents were professional parents. They loved it. 481 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: They love being parents, They love raising children. And when 482 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: my youngest of the first five, my youngest sister had 483 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: her butt mitzvah, which means she was thirteen years old, 484 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: my mom started to have sort of advance um emptiness 485 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: syndrome before she ever left home, but she really started 486 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: to she she just pined for another baby, and so 487 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: they they adopted a young boy named Michael. Michael came 488 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: to us with UM, a terminal illness, and we didn't 489 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: know that. He came to us with a chronic disease 490 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: that had something to do with my dad specialty, not 491 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: entirely but close. It was a form of leukemia, something 492 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: with which you are very familiar and UM, but we 493 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: didn't know it at first. He just was a baby 494 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: boy that was delivered and he was happy and he 495 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: seemed great. But then he started to get these bony 496 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: protrusions and his body in certain places and his eyes 497 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: started a bulge, and my dad began to know but 498 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:56,239 Speaker 1: couldn't tell anyone what he suspected was going on, and 499 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: he was on a mad tear to get somebody on 500 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: the world, anybody, a specialist, anyone that could help figure 501 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: out how to save this child, because the preponderance of 502 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: outcome was outcomes, uh, was that they would die but 503 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: before their second birthday. If they got through their second birthday, 504 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: then they had, um, you know, a fifty chance of 505 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: maybe ever making into age ten. So this is what 506 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: he lived with. Anyway, I don't want to drag this out, 507 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: but the bottom line is, um, we couldn't save him. 508 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: And and and here's a lesson for everybody who does 509 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: music for a living or anything else. I was on 510 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: my way to Chicago to work on Killer. We were 511 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: recording at our c A there and I got snowed 512 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: in into Detroit. Our flight got diverted and I was 513 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: left in Detroit airport and uh, and I heard my 514 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: name paged. I knew Michael was sick. I didn't want 515 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: to go. Actually I knew he was really sick. And 516 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: my dad said. My dad was kind of a workaholic. 517 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: To my dad said, you have an obligation, you have work. 518 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: There are people waiting for you. You must go. So 519 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: I said, okay, but um, I didn't feel great about it. 520 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: So I heard my name page in my heart just sank, 521 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: and I went and picked up the page. It turned 522 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: out to be the guy that was running Paramount Records 523 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: at the time, to whom I had delivered Detroit record 524 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: by you know, Mitch Rider in the band Detroit, and 525 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: he wanted to talk about a single. But he freaked 526 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: me out so badly that I screamed at him on 527 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: the phone and I just don't you ever call me 528 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: like that again, I will, you know, And I hung 529 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: up on him, and I apologized later, but it just 530 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: blew my mind. I was so and then I was relieved, Oh, 531 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: thank god, it's all it's not Michael, It's okay. I 532 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: go on to Chicago, and sure enough, two nights later, um, 533 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: I get a call from Alan McMillan, who was uh 534 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: Jack Richardson's partner and my boss at that time, and 535 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: he's said, I think you should probably come home and 536 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: and so I went into the studio and I was 537 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: kind of like I was in a daze. I didn't 538 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: know what to think and I didn't know what to do. 539 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: The the manager of the studio was a really wise 540 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: wonderful man named Dick Forber. He took me out in 541 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: the hallway and he said, listen, nobody ever died for 542 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: one of a rock and roll record. He said, you 543 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: get on that plane and go home. And that may 544 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: have been the most valuable lesson I've learned in my 545 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: adult life. Nobody ever died for one of one of 546 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: these things. And when it's important and your family's at stake, 547 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: or someone's health, or or you can or or there's 548 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: a riot going on and you need to go, you 549 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: need to go. You need to go. You'll get a 550 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: chance to finish later. And and we did. And you know, 551 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: Killer was a big hit for Alice Cooper and stuff. 552 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was a big deal. So then Michael died. 553 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: Michael passed away, and literally one week after, as we 554 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,479 Speaker 1: were sitting around the table, Jewish people have Shiva, and 555 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: when Shiva is over, you do this. You do this 556 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: ritual if you walk out the back door of your 557 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: house and you walk back in the front door. Basically 558 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: you're leaving the grief behind and you're walking into your 559 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: new life. The phone rang. Seriously, we were sitting at him. 560 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: My dad goes picks up the phone, he's talking for 561 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: about fifty minutes. He comes back and he's white as 562 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: a sheet and he looks at all of us and 563 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: he said, that was a lawyer who just called me, 564 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: who had heard about Michael and what had happened. And 565 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: he says, there's a little girl for for adoption and 566 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: do we want her? And everybody at the table was like, 567 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: hell yeah, and and my mom started to cry, and 568 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: we all, you know, we all sort of jumped up 569 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: and down. And that's my little sister Ranana, who you know, 570 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: has three beautiful girls of her own, and and and um. 571 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: And then after her came Judith. So that how we 572 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: ended up with eight kids. Long story in the hierarchy. 573 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: Where are you in the eight children? I'm the oldest, 574 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: You're the oldest. Usually all the hopes and dreams were 575 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: in the oldest and all the focus. Was that true 576 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: in your family? Well, I think the hopes and dreams 577 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: were in me, yes, because you know, you're the first 578 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: of everything. You're the first kid, the first grandkid for 579 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: my grandparents and all that stuff. So yes, people they 580 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: I was you know, I was the magic child. You 581 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: know I could do no wrong and all that stuff. 582 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: But I I proved them wrong very soon thereafter. You know, 583 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: I started. I was not a well behaved child. I 584 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: was a happy kid, and I was always sweet to people. 585 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: But I found a way around anything I didn't want 586 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: to do, and particularly school, which I hated. I thought 587 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: school was so slow and uh. And I was not 588 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: going to be a doctor like my dad wanted me 589 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: to be, or a lawyer like my uncle was. I 590 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: was just I wanted to be. Actually, I wanted to 591 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: be an act her. I started because my brothers and 592 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: I we were We were kid actors at the CBC 593 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: when I was eight and they were they were five 594 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: and a half. We started doing television. Went together. Okay. 595 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: One of the great things about this place is it's 596 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's like a little village the 597 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: whole country. Everybody knows everybody. So my my dad's best 598 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: friend was a doctor married to uh, a Balennesian dancer, 599 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: and only in Canada would the hot show on Saturday 600 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: night be Baldesian dancing starring Garbett Roberts and and in as. 601 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: I don't think she called herself style but at the time, 602 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: but she was married to doctor. So anyway, so she said, 603 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: do the kids ever want to come and see the studios. 604 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: And my dad took my brothers, who are redheaded twins, 605 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: identical twins, and he took up and they used to 606 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: dress the same, you know, they like people did with 607 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: twins in the fifties and sixties. They dressed them up 608 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: the same, and and and we were in all singing, 609 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: all dancing family. We were the Jewish Von Trapps of Toronto. 610 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: And so you know, they went to to take a 611 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 1: tour of the CBC and the producers of the Billy 612 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: O'Connor show. Billy O'Connor was an Irish tenor who had 613 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: the show after the Dance Show on Saturday nights and 614 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: he was the number one variety show in Canada. So 615 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 1: the producers came walking out of their students. They see 616 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: these two little redheads and they go, oh my god, 617 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: they look just like Billy. They're like miniature versions. They 618 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: don't sing, do they. And my dad goes five, six, seven, 619 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: eight boys breaking I I don't want a girl jock. 620 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: So they got the gig. Then they became the uh 621 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: special guest star on on a Billy O'Connor um Christmas Special. 622 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: And then those guys just turned my dad and say, 623 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: got any more those at home? And that's what that's 624 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: how it happened. You said you were a singing, dancing family. 625 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: Explain that. Okay again, And I don't want to make 626 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: this all about being Jewish, but but I do want 627 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: to say that, don't worry people like people hate you 628 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: anyway for being Jewish. Yeah, I've already been there. I'll 629 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: tell someday. I'll tell you the stories from school. But um, uh, 630 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, we there's a lot of song and a 631 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of music involved in in 632 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: religious ceremonies, in in festivals and families getting together every 633 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: Friday night with Shabbat. There's you sing things, you sing everything, 634 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: and so there's always music. But also my dad played 635 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: uh jazz bass in a big band in Canada to 636 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: works way through medical school. And my mom was was 637 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: concert level pianist who was too shy to play in 638 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: public except in front of the family. So we would 639 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: get together. My mom would play, my dad would play, 640 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: and and uh, and we'd sing these you know, sort 641 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: of old fashioned songs altogether as a family, and we'd 642 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: sing in harmonies and all this well isn't a formal thing. 643 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: It was just what we did and when the relatives came. 644 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: Every time the relatives came, my dad would wake us up, 645 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: literally would come, you know, stumbling down the stairs in 646 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: our pjs. We're being the sleep out of our eyes 647 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: and and really complaining what he would say, this moment 648 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: will never come again. That's so okay, alright, so we 649 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: gotta sick. So we would sick three or four songs. 650 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: I would have to do a routine, and then we 651 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: could we would be allowed to go back to bed. Okay, 652 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 1: we're your parents born in Canada? Yes, and so their 653 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: parents came from the Old Country. Yes, um my my. 654 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 1: My mom's father was born in Canada, but only just only, 655 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: I mean his family had only just arrived. Her mother 656 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: was born in Russia and um, and came at the 657 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: age of three. Okay, so you're growing up, are you 658 00:37:52,800 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: a popular kid? Well, you know, I they skipped me 659 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: from grade one to grade three because I was whereas 660 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: as we say in America, from first grade the third grade. Um, 661 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: because I was I was getting the lessons too quickly 662 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: and they didn't think that that year in between was 663 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: going to be um valuable to me. So they moved 664 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: me ahead, thinking they were doing me a favor. That's 665 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: not a favor, because what it meant was I was 666 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: a year younger than everybody all the time. And so 667 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: I hit puberty last you know, I was still I 668 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: had the same experience. I know what you're talking about, 669 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: did you. Yeah, I was a little fat kid. Everybody 670 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: picked on, you know, and and and it was really 671 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: when I learned to play the guitar and saying that, um, 672 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: that I created a popularity for myself by showing up 673 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: at parties and being the kind of tortured artist. You know. 674 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: I tried it on the piano, but it's hard to 675 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: carry a piano from party to party. Um. So you know, 676 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: if I picked up the guitar and um, and the 677 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: girls loved it, and I just thought, well, this is cool. 678 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: So how did you did your parents give you piano lessons? 679 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: Of course we were a Jewish family, had exactly why 680 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: I know, okay? And then how many years did you 681 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 1: take piano lessons? I started? Uh, I started piano lessons 682 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: at the age of five, So I did I did you? Absolutely? 683 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: There would be three there were six of us at once, 684 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: three on each piano. Oh wow, Oh that's like Dr 685 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: T Williger's you know, did you ever do you ever 686 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: see The five Thousand Fingers of Dr T? With Okay, 687 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: you gotta look this up because it is for anybody 688 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: in the music business, anybody who plays, or anybody who 689 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: always wanted to play. This is a must see movie, 690 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: The five Thousand Fingers of Doctor T. And the bottom 691 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: line is Dr Twilliger is a very is an aggressive 692 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: music teacher, and the kid who is taking lessons from 693 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: him falls asleep at the piano and this is his nightmares, 694 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: very psychedelic and it really a brilliant commentary on so 695 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: many things about music. Anyway, So yes, we took lessons. 696 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: I learned that we learned. Can you read music at 697 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: this point in time? Yes, I can, but I'm not 698 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: a very good reader. I'm I'm a slow reader. I 699 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: can read and I can write, but I'm not like 700 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: I mean that some people can can read fly ship 701 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: and play it right. You know what? I worked with 702 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: Long Long, who is concert pianist um doing um a 703 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: record with him and the two cellos, and we wrote 704 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: a part for him that was so complicated it looked 705 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: like rachmaninof it just was like, as I say, fly 706 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: shit on the page. I sent it to him in 707 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: advance and we could practice and and little did I 708 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: know that he never practices. He's just a lazy bum. 709 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: So he he um, that's not true. He's a genius. 710 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: He's not a lazy bum. He doesn't have to practice. 711 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: He showed up in the studio, put this thing a 712 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: fly ship, up on the piano and just sat there 713 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: and just whipped it out. It was like it was insane. 714 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that anybody could say, read that and 715 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: not make a mistake. That's not me. I have to 716 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: take my time. What inspired you to pick up the guitar? 717 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: I told you I needed. I needed to be able 718 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: to sing my songs to girls. You know, when they 719 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 1: came to my house, I could sing them at the piano. 720 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: So you were writing songs at this point in time, Well, 721 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, I was writing or I was picking songs 722 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: from the you know, the the public repertoire that we're 723 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: very um moving. Let's say in a polite way that 724 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: they would they would be motivating of young women to 725 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: to perhaps look at me in a different light. Okay, 726 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: so you were a child actor. You said you were 727 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: not good in school at what point do you say, 728 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: maybe I'll try this music thing. Well, everything in my 729 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: life has actually been a reaction to something else. It's 730 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: it's not that I said to myself, I'm going to 731 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 1: be in the music business. You know. I did play, 732 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: and I wanted to play. My uncle had a club 733 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: so I could play in the club. Then I got 734 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: together with my cousin Nancy, and we had a little duo. 735 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: We were the Messengers and uh and and we were 736 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: pretty good, except that we lost the high school talent 737 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: show against the band called the Twin Tone four, which 738 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: was the leader of which was Ivan Reitman and and 739 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: and Ivan and I have never forgotten that, you know, 740 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: and I've really never forgiven him for it. But but anyway, 741 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: so you know, so I would do that. I love 742 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: playing on stage. That was really great. I didn't know 743 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 1: that that was going to be a career on any level. 744 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: I was still trying to get into um acting, I 745 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: was still trying to write movies. I was trying to 746 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: do anything that had to do with with theater. I 747 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: love theater so much and um and that's how I 748 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: got into music business. I was actually doing a play, 749 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: a musical review. I was the script editor, not the 750 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,760 Speaker 1: music guy. The music director of the show was Al McMillan, 751 00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: and they decided one day that they wanted a rock 752 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: kay uh score to the show. They wanted this would 753 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: be and and so at that exact same time, Michael Cole, 754 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: who you also know, one of the great promoters of 755 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: all time, who was my teenage buddy. Uh and I 756 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: we co managed a band called Chorus. Now. He thought 757 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: that that meant booking them in clubs, and I thought 758 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: that that meant working on their material. So we were 759 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: both wrong. Neither of us had any idea what a 760 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,240 Speaker 1: manager was. But this was a great start. So we 761 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: we put them. We shoehorned them into this musical review 762 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: and Alan Alan was going through some stuff at the time, 763 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: and and Uh and I loved the man. I just 764 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: thought he was wonderful. He actually came to live with 765 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: us for a while and I just said, listen, I 766 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 1: got you. I'll take it from here. Let me I'll 767 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: put the material in and I'll work it up with 768 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: a band, and then when you come back, you'll see 769 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: and if it doesn't work, you can redo it whatever 770 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: you'd like. So in the band Icarus, the lead singer 771 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: and writer was a guy named Eddie Schwartz who wrote 772 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 1: hit me with your best shot, and um and so 773 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: uh you know, and and then we had to go 774 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: find material. So I went and I drove to Ottawa 775 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: and met with Bruce Cockburn and a couple of other 776 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,959 Speaker 1: artists that were up there, and and um. And a 777 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: guy who was helping me find material was a man 778 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: named Adam Mitchell, who had played in a band called 779 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: the Poppers, and he went on to be a fairly 780 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: famous producer in his own right. Um. Anyway, we found 781 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: the music, we did the thing, and it sounded great. 782 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: When Alan came back, he looked at me and he said, 783 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: I want you to meet my partner. He could use 784 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,399 Speaker 1: a guy like you. So I thought, okay, they need 785 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: a manager. So I went for the meeting with Jack Richardson, 786 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: who was Alan's partner in a company called Nimbus nine. 787 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: At the time they were doing uh um, Jack was 788 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: producing the Guests Who and they had the number one 789 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: record in the world an American Woman, which was number 790 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: one everywhere. So I to the office and Jack was 791 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: very nice, very polite, very down to earth, you know, 792 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 1: fatherly kind of guy, and said, so you know what, 793 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: what what do you want to do? And I said, well, 794 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: I want to be a manager and he said really, 795 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: so what does that? What does that mean? And so 796 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: I explained him how it's working on their material, making 797 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: songs better. He said, you don't want to be a manager, 798 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: he said, you want to be a producer. And that's 799 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: how it all started, just doing a little backfill traditionally 800 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: in a Jewish family, and I would know the children 801 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: have to go to college. So what happened with that? Well, 802 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,399 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes you're the windscreen and sometimes you're the bug, right, 803 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: sometimes you're Louisville slugger. But okay, yeah, but you know 804 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: what happened to college was I went. I started. I 805 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: wasn't taking anything useful. It was all sort of you know, 806 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: I was taking Italian and economics how does that work? 807 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: And uh? And philosophy and but there was a drama 808 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: club which I joined, and I convinced the dean of 809 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: the college to give me five thousand dollars in nineteen 810 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: sixties seven to buy a film camera and to start 811 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: a film club. The college that I went to was 812 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,840 Speaker 1: the first ever video teaching college in Canada, probably in 813 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: North America. So what that means is they would do lectures. Um, 814 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: they would they would record them, they shoot them for television, 815 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: and then they would be able to play them in 816 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: the lecture halls all across the country. So this was 817 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: a big thing. And uh, the technicians who worked at 818 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: TV part of the college, I got to know them 819 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: all because I started this video film club thing and 820 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: I used to pay them out of the money that 821 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: the dean gave us to stay after school and teach 822 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: us how to edit, how to shoot, how to do 823 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,479 Speaker 1: graphics and all that sort of stuff. So and after 824 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,919 Speaker 1: a while, after about five months, I got so good 825 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,400 Speaker 1: at it that they just said to me, you know, 826 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: when did you just come and work with us? So 827 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,839 Speaker 1: I did, And that was the end of your school career. Yes, 828 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: I left. I after as a student became staff. And uh, 829 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:08,240 Speaker 1: didn't you also get married at a very young age? Yeah? 830 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:13,280 Speaker 1: I got married at seventeen. Um, we we got pregnant 831 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: at when I was just sixteen and she was seventeen, 832 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 1: and then we had to get married. So we got 833 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,320 Speaker 1: married at seventeen. And when I say we had to 834 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: get married, we did decide. We did decide to do it. 835 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: There was the option offered to us, particularly by um 836 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: Marlene's mom. You know that, you know, we could think 837 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: about terminating, but but we couldn't think about terminating. So 838 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, maybe it's just child childhood idealism. I 839 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,280 Speaker 1: don't know, but I know that if that had never happened, 840 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: I'm I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. I 841 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: don't know what I'd be, but it wouldn't be this 842 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: because all of that forced me to, um try to 843 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: find a way to make a living. And that's a 844 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,839 Speaker 1: that's an amazing motivator. You know when when you've got 845 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: a wife and a child and you've got to figure 846 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,279 Speaker 1: out how to feed him, Uh, you start doing things 847 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: you never thought you you or you may never have 848 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: thought you would do. I sold encyclopedias. I became friends 849 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: with Buddy Abrams, who was the greatest encyclopedia salesman in history. 850 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: He was a guy who started Encyclopedia Britannica door to door. 851 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,840 Speaker 1: He didn't start the encyclopedia, he started the door to 852 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: door part, and as the guy who started it, he 853 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: got an override on every set of Encyclopedia Britannic as 854 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: that sold in the world. Now, being from a Jewish family. 855 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: You guys had one, and you probably had an set 856 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: of the Americans Encyclopedia and the Great Books of the 857 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: Western World. Right, these were all you know. We were 858 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: suckers for anything that had to do with knowledge and culture. 859 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: Buddy Abrams became my friend, and he became my friend 860 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: because he was my dad's patient and he loved my dad, 861 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,279 Speaker 1: but he really loved me. He was He gave me 862 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: the other great lesson of my life. When we were 863 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: playing chess, which he liked to do. I was sort 864 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: of saying, I don't know what I'm gonna do when 865 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 1: I grow up. I was fifteen or sixteen at the time. 866 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: I said, I don't really know what I want to do. 867 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 1: And he said, well, let me tell you, some kid, 868 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: no one with your education, your looks, and your background 869 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: will ever starve past that. He got nothing to be 870 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: afraid of. And I was like, WHOA, that's heavy ship. 871 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: But you know what, He's right, I'm never gonna starve. 872 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 1: I'm smart. I'm going to figure out a way. I 873 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:36,279 Speaker 1: transition from being a naturally unsure teenager, especially being the 874 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: young one, the fat one, the the other one. All 875 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 1: the time I was unsure, I was never the captain 876 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: of the hockey team. I was never that guy, so 877 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: I was unsure of where I would fit in. But 878 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 1: once I assimilated that, it changed my approach and then 879 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: I became like, I don't I don't have to worry. 880 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: I'll try this one. This could work, and if that doesn't, 881 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,320 Speaker 1: I'll try that one. And so it went. Now. Buddy 882 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 1: Abrahams was married to a woman from Hawaii named Momolani Reeves, 883 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: who had been married to a half Chinese, half American guy. 884 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: She was Hawaiian and also herself half Chinese. She had 885 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,320 Speaker 1: two sons, Sammy and Victor, who were like my heroes. 886 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,880 Speaker 1: They were in their twenties. They were like sumo wrestlers, 887 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: big guys, and they smoked dope. I've never seen anyone 888 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,320 Speaker 1: smoked dope. It was so cool. But they were Hawaiian, 889 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, and they smoked dope and they looked like, yeah, 890 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: they looked like foo manshoe guys and sumo wrestler bodies. 891 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 1: Sammy moved to Beirut, where he met a model, tall, beautiful, 892 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,839 Speaker 1: blonde um English woman um named Patricia, but she called 893 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 1: herself Patrick and they got married and they had a baby. 894 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,280 Speaker 1: Uh that Momy and Buddy had never met. Buddy invited 895 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 1: me down to their apartment in in uh Fort Lee, 896 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 1: New Jersey, right across the river from New York one weekend, 897 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,360 Speaker 1: and that's when Sammy and Patrick came home with their baby, Kiano. 898 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: And that's when I met Kiana Yeves. Wow, this is 899 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: really yeah, that's a good story. And they moved across 900 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,480 Speaker 1: the street from my school. You know, we were so 901 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: close as families. They moved across the street from my 902 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: studio in Toronto, where I was now a partner in 903 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,439 Speaker 1: Nimbus nine, and uh and Alice Cooper used to stay 904 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,800 Speaker 1: there and actually did babysit Keanu Reeves, as he claims 905 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: very often. Okay, how long did you sell encyclopedias for I? Actually, Uh, 906 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 1: I didn't do very well at Encyclopedia, so I didn't 907 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 1: last very long. It was like weeks, seriously, like I 908 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 1: was terrible and and and I was and then I 909 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: tried magazines. I was just terrible. And the reason I 910 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,800 Speaker 1: was terrible was because I felt really sorry for the 911 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,439 Speaker 1: person on the other side of the door. I didn't 912 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,359 Speaker 1: want to do anything to hurt them, and I could 913 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,839 Speaker 1: see they couldn't really afford to do what I wanted 914 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,359 Speaker 1: them to do, so I just stepped away. Okay, so 915 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,719 Speaker 1: what was paying the bills when you were young with 916 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 1: a child? I was writing, uh, sketch material for a 917 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,879 Speaker 1: show on CBC called Sunday Morning, the producer of which 918 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: and on to do this musical review and hired me. 919 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 1: And that's how I got that gig. So I was 920 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: doing some comedy writing, and I was playing for Peanuts, 921 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, in in different little clubs and things. And 922 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 1: we were living you and your bride or we were 923 00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,719 Speaker 1: still living at my parents house because we could not 924 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,200 Speaker 1: afford to move out. And when do you ultimately move 925 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:24,320 Speaker 1: out of your parents house? Um? And we had a roommate, 926 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: by the way, we we had to have a roommate 927 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: who was my my buddy from from college, who who 928 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: did the video club with me and all that sort 929 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: of stuff. Um, so he be. It was a three 930 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,760 Speaker 1: bedroom apartment. He got the third bedroom and we moved 931 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,360 Speaker 1: there when David was too. So I was nineteen and 932 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 1: I was starting to make some money. Rick and I. 933 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: Rick and I by that time, we were staff writers 934 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,720 Speaker 1: for the CBC. We were writing a show called How's 935 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:58,760 Speaker 1: This for a great title? Good company, Colon. It's our stuff. 936 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,239 Speaker 1: That took a genius to come up with. I just 937 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: got Oh my god, and and but that show. The 938 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,360 Speaker 1: lead actor on that show, singer, actor, singer, dancer, etcetera, 939 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,160 Speaker 1: was Alan Thick, who became a lifelong friend of mine 940 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: and and the director of the show went on to 941 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 1: do the Johnny Cash Show in Nashville, Tennessee. And that 942 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,279 Speaker 1: was my first trip to Nashville was to go visit him. 943 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: But that's a long story, but a good one anyway. 944 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: So we were writing this series and and uh, we 945 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,959 Speaker 1: were comedy writers. We were we were part of a 946 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: team of about ten writers, I want to say, and uh, 947 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 1: and we were so unruly. This is the CBC. These 948 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,040 Speaker 1: are people come to work in a suit and tie, 949 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, and there and and they come in at 950 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,640 Speaker 1: nine in the morning and they go home at six. 951 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: It's insane. So Rick and I were so crazy, and 952 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: most of the time on psychedelics of one sort or another. 953 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,680 Speaker 1: So we were. We were very unruly, to the extent 954 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,160 Speaker 1: that the guy across the hall from our office named 955 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,839 Speaker 1: Alex Trebec complained about us and had us removed. So 956 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,880 Speaker 1: that we were we were we were the only comedy 957 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,839 Speaker 1: writing team that had to work after hours. We could 958 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:18,760 Speaker 1: only come in after six pm. Unbelievable. It was great. 959 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:27,799 Speaker 1: I loved it. How old were you when you had 960 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:33,000 Speaker 1: that faithful meeting with Jack Richardson? UM? I had. I 961 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 1: had just turned twenty. The stories the story had been 962 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,960 Speaker 1: that I was nineteen, and I believed that for the 963 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 1: longest onie until I went back and looked at the 964 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: dates and I was like, no, no, no, that's not possible. 965 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 1: So I was twenty. Okay, So he tells your son, 966 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,320 Speaker 1: you need to be a producer. What's the step after that? Okay? 967 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,360 Speaker 1: So the next step was um he I you know, 968 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:56,759 Speaker 1: he said you want to be a producer, and I 969 00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,319 Speaker 1: was like, you're gonna have to explain that, sir. So 970 00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,760 Speaker 1: I basically followed him around and he gave me UM 971 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 1: one on one classes and what it meant to be. 972 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,400 Speaker 1: He put you on the payroll. Yes, he hired me, 973 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,719 Speaker 1: But it wasn't that I wasn't doing anything because I 974 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: was very good at working on material. I was really 975 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 1: good at songs and uh and and in those days 976 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: not nearly smart enough to know that, um, I should 977 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,920 Speaker 1: have been a co writer on the stuff I worked on. 978 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 1: But you know, it doesn't matter. It was a fantastic 979 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,120 Speaker 1: education and I got to work with so many different 980 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: kinds of people. So I would do Jack's pre production. 981 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 1: If there was a band he was working with, he 982 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,800 Speaker 1: would send me ahead of time. I picked the songs 983 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:46,759 Speaker 1: and we'd work on the arrangements and then we would 984 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,600 Speaker 1: go into the studio with Jack and he would be 985 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,439 Speaker 1: the guy uh in charge of recording, or he would 986 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 1: come like the last day of rehearsals or something like that. Also, 987 00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 1: Nimbus also had a partner named Ben McPeek who did 988 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,839 Speaker 1: UH jingles and and UH commercials for a living. So 989 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: I used to do sessions for him to like they 990 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,240 Speaker 1: would have me. Um. I got to do UH sound 991 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:15,520 Speaker 1: alike UH material for Coca Cola commercials. Said Okay, this week, 992 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,440 Speaker 1: we want a Joe Cocker song. So we would come 993 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,919 Speaker 1: up with a way of doing it's the real thing, 994 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, Joe Cocker style. And that was a great 995 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,960 Speaker 1: training ground too. So you said you followed and took 996 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,080 Speaker 1: lessons from Jack. Yeah, So we had we had a 997 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,040 Speaker 1: flight all these places, right, We flew to like I mean, 998 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,600 Speaker 1: we worked in Munsey, Indiana, believe it or not, and 999 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,920 Speaker 1: we had a flight up to Chicago and then and 1000 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: then take a card or the Midwest or something, you know. Uh. 1001 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,200 Speaker 1: So I had a lot of hours with Jack. And 1002 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: during that time I had a little notebook and I 1003 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,319 Speaker 1: just kept asking questions. You know that last session we 1004 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,759 Speaker 1: did you put you put this microphone on the on 1005 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:57,719 Speaker 1: the tom toms and I didn't see you do that before. 1006 00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: Why did you do that? And then he would explain 1007 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: it to me and literally he he went right back 1008 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,360 Speaker 1: to basics, including physics and help me with that. And 1009 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,760 Speaker 1: then at a certain point, about three or three months 1010 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,919 Speaker 1: or so in he said, you know what, I'm gonna 1011 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,120 Speaker 1: send you to school. So he paid for me to 1012 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,880 Speaker 1: go to the Eastman School of Music to a uh 1013 00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:22,800 Speaker 1: two week um production of course, being run by Phil 1014 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:28,720 Speaker 1: Ramone and David Green in Rochester. This was in Rochester, 1015 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,640 Speaker 1: New York. It's where I had my first bag of burgers. 1016 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,080 Speaker 1: I never I didn't know such a thing existed. You know, 1017 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,880 Speaker 1: white Castle And if anybody doesn't know about bags of burgers, 1018 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,200 Speaker 1: you should go to your nearest white Castle and not 1019 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 1: have them. So yeah, so I went. I went to Rochester, 1020 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:51,080 Speaker 1: New York, and and uh, Phil and David just kind 1021 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 1: of they liked me and they took me under their wing. 1022 00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: You know, I was a quick study. I got what 1023 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,720 Speaker 1: what it was they were talking about, and I was useful. 1024 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: So I was slave labor because not only was Phil teaching, 1025 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,280 Speaker 1: of course, but he was also using us as slave 1026 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: labor to help him to record a live album with 1027 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:12,600 Speaker 1: the Paul Uh Paul Winter Consort. So so you know, 1028 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,680 Speaker 1: I was like an assistant engineer um at a time 1029 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:21,400 Speaker 1: when um, you know, people like me weren't getting weren't 1030 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 1: getting paid, so um, so you know that, and that 1031 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 1: was an amazing two weeks because I didn't sleep. They 1032 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,840 Speaker 1: had a console then those days that we were working 1033 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,479 Speaker 1: in a track so that a console and eight track 1034 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:40,120 Speaker 1: machine and tapes of various well known or or or 1035 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, almost well known bands that you could put 1036 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: on and you could sit at the console and you 1037 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: could mix, which is an amazing way to learn, Like 1038 00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,320 Speaker 1: the best way if you want to learn how to 1039 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,960 Speaker 1: make a record, start by learning how to mix a record, 1040 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,040 Speaker 1: because once you start putting bits and pieces together, you 1041 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,720 Speaker 1: can see where the issues are with the recording that 1042 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,120 Speaker 1: should have been attended to, that may not have been 1043 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,560 Speaker 1: attended to because people just didn't know better. So, um, 1044 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,000 Speaker 1: I learned a tremendously like those two weeks for like 1045 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,480 Speaker 1: two years. Okay, just to stop for a second. Uh. 1046 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,760 Speaker 1: Back in that era, producers and engineers were very different, 1047 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,160 Speaker 1: whereas once we started hitting the mid seventies and lads, 1048 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,280 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people engineers who said they 1049 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: were producers. Where certainly you come from the school where 1050 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: you can work with the material, But to what degree 1051 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,600 Speaker 1: did you have or get engineering chops? Oh? I had 1052 00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:35,680 Speaker 1: to have them. I mean, um, to what degree? Well, 1053 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, I'm never the I'm never the smartest guy 1054 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 1: in the room full of engineers that you know, not 1055 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,200 Speaker 1: by a long shot. I just know how stuff works 1056 00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,560 Speaker 1: sort of intuitively and instinctively. But a lot of the 1057 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,080 Speaker 1: time it was just a simple matter that I didn't 1058 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,960 Speaker 1: sleep and other people had to, you know. It was 1059 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,160 Speaker 1: just like I can't stop, you know. I would sit 1060 00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,959 Speaker 1: at the console after they left. I think that says 1061 01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:05,280 Speaker 1: with with Phil and David. Being able to sit at 1062 01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,920 Speaker 1: that console and actually mix somebody else's stuff with no 1063 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,760 Speaker 1: one else around like that was an amazing experience for 1064 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,880 Speaker 1: confidence building. You get back to Toronto after the two weeks, 1065 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,480 Speaker 1: I get back to Toronto, and very shortly thereafter, Chef 1066 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,440 Speaker 1: Gordon walks into the offices of Nimbus time because he 1067 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 1: wants that guess who sound for Alice Cooper, which and 1068 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 1: Alice Cooper, you know, one of the most hated bands 1069 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:34,080 Speaker 1: in the world at the time. And and I'm just 1070 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,200 Speaker 1: so grateful that he did, because, you know, he he 1071 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,680 Speaker 1: wanted Jack to produce. And when Jack looked at the 1072 01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 1: pictures of these guys, these five creatures of indeterminate gender 1073 01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:48,560 Speaker 1: and and uh, you know something way out of his 1074 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,920 Speaker 1: very middle of the road will wheelhouse, he just he 1075 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,920 Speaker 1: didn't really want to have anything to do with him. 1076 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,960 Speaker 1: So he actually sent me to New York City to 1077 01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,960 Speaker 1: see the man. He said to Chef, being the polite 1078 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,560 Speaker 1: Canadian that he is, and that that I still am 1079 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,479 Speaker 1: to a much lesser extent um. He you know, he said, 1080 01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 1: he said, well, he didn't just say no. He said, Okay, 1081 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,480 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I'll send the kid. If the 1082 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:13,680 Speaker 1: kid likes the band, then I'll come and see the band. 1083 01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:15,760 Speaker 1: And then Chef said that's great, and he left it. 1084 01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,439 Speaker 1: Then Jacqueline Community said get rid of them. So they 1085 01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: sent me to New York to get rid of to 1086 01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,160 Speaker 1: sign somebody else and get rid of Alice Cooper. And 1087 01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: it was exactly the opposite. The other person that I 1088 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,000 Speaker 1: went to see didn't move me. I didn't see it. 1089 01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:36,880 Speaker 1: But going into Max's Kansas City on September eight in 1090 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,880 Speaker 1: following the laser beams out of the subway station at 1091 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,000 Speaker 1: Houston and and and going around the corner and up 1092 01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,800 Speaker 1: the stairway into Maxi's Kansas City into a sea of 1093 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:54,560 Speaker 1: spandex and spider eyes, into a world of uh, you know, 1094 01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:59,480 Speaker 1: jet black hair, black lipstick, black finger nails, and and 1095 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,760 Speaker 1: and hugely high boost. They were like these wraiths, these 1096 01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,440 Speaker 1: zombies that were floating across the floor. Nobody spoke. They 1097 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,680 Speaker 1: just sort of had, you know, they had a telepathic 1098 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 1: language among them. And they all knew when I entered 1099 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,400 Speaker 1: the room that there was a hippie in their midst. 1100 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,080 Speaker 1: And this was not this would not do, you know. 1101 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:19,800 Speaker 1: But anyway, they put me at the front table and 1102 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:24,040 Speaker 1: I watched the show. It was it was beyond inspiring 1103 01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:26,040 Speaker 1: is a you know, an overworked word, but it was 1104 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,520 Speaker 1: inspiring to me because I saw things there that I 1105 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: had never seen done on a stage. I'd never seen 1106 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 1: props and lights and sets being used in a rock 1107 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,640 Speaker 1: and roll context like that, in particularly where everybody around 1108 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:44,480 Speaker 1: was sort of so wraith like, and and yet they 1109 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,200 Speaker 1: all knew the words, and these were songs that had 1110 01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,720 Speaker 1: never been released. So the whole thing was like it 1111 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,560 Speaker 1: just knocked my socks off and I want. I went 1112 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,800 Speaker 1: running up to the dressing room and with no authority whatsoever, 1113 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,560 Speaker 1: committed Nimus nine to producing the next Alice Cooper album. 1114 01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,040 Speaker 1: And then when I got back to my hotel, I 1115 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,360 Speaker 1: didn't sleep at all because I knew that this was 1116 01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:07,200 Speaker 1: this was not going to be met with good favor. 1117 01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:09,880 Speaker 1: And so I called Alan McMillan first thing in the morning, 1118 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,920 Speaker 1: and he just goes, get on the first plane back, 1119 01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,280 Speaker 1: you get back. So I did, and I came running 1120 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,280 Speaker 1: into the building basically begging for my life. And the 1121 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,200 Speaker 1: first words out of my mouth you don't understand, I 1122 01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,920 Speaker 1: said to Jack Richardson, of all people, you don't understand. 1123 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:27,520 Speaker 1: This was not rock and roll. There were no T shirts, 1124 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:29,280 Speaker 1: there were no jeans. They had set some props and 1125 01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,840 Speaker 1: lights and stuff, and everybody do the words in spiderizing 1126 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,600 Speaker 1: spandex and everybody looked the same, and it was amazing, 1127 01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 1: and I finally got to the end and I just said, 1128 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,200 Speaker 1: let this wasn't rock and roll, Jack, this is the 1129 01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,720 Speaker 1: beginning of a cultural movement. We have to do it. 1130 01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,840 Speaker 1: And Jack said, uh, enough already said if you like 1131 01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:53,000 Speaker 1: it so much, you do it. And that stopped me 1132 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: in my tracks. That was like, you know, I just 1133 01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:58,600 Speaker 1: kind of looked at him and said excuse me, and 1134 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,360 Speaker 1: he's you know, or in Canadian that would have been 1135 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:06,160 Speaker 1: sorry and uh and uh, and Jack said, yeah, you 1136 01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,080 Speaker 1: do it. I'm not doing it. So then I had 1137 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:11,760 Speaker 1: to walk up you know that, I had to take 1138 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,560 Speaker 1: a walk up the street just to figure out, like 1139 01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 1: did I dare? Like, like, this is real, this is like, 1140 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,960 Speaker 1: this is not being an advanced man for the real guy. 1141 01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,120 Speaker 1: This is he's He's gonna make me the real guy. 1142 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,560 Speaker 1: And I don't know if I can do that. And 1143 01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:30,600 Speaker 1: then I got halfway down the block and realized that 1144 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,360 Speaker 1: nobody with my brains and my looks and blah blah blah, 1145 01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,560 Speaker 1: and I just thought, what have I got to lose? 1146 01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,600 Speaker 1: This is great. This is the greatest opportunity anyone's ever 1147 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: given me. So I came back into the building and 1148 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:46,400 Speaker 1: I went, I'll do it. You'll be proud. So what 1149 01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:51,080 Speaker 1: were the next steps. Well, the next steps were that 1150 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,160 Speaker 1: I went and rehearsed with them in Pontiac, Michigan. There's 1151 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,680 Speaker 1: lots of wonderful stories and you'll read all about it 1152 01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:58,760 Speaker 1: in my new book entitled No I don't have a book, 1153 01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:00,560 Speaker 1: but when I do have a book, you'll read all 1154 01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,800 Speaker 1: about it. It was a great leap forward from the 1155 01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:09,160 Speaker 1: previous two albums. Okay, they had eighteen, had Caught in 1156 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,959 Speaker 1: a Dream, etcetera. How did you make that great leap 1157 01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,440 Speaker 1: forward in the material? Well, first of all, they that 1158 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:21,360 Speaker 1: material was already written when I came Lucky me. It 1159 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,600 Speaker 1: was at a moment where they had had two albums 1160 01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:26,400 Speaker 1: to sort of find their way, and then they started 1161 01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,920 Speaker 1: to write songs, like actual songs, and some of them 1162 01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,919 Speaker 1: were really good. We had a lot of trash too, 1163 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, there was a lot of material that that 1164 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:37,720 Speaker 1: got rejected. But that's the way of every every project 1165 01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,560 Speaker 1: you ever do. You know, you may go through hundreds 1166 01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,800 Speaker 1: of bits and pieces to find the ones that you 1167 01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,720 Speaker 1: really really want to spend time on. So those songs 1168 01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,960 Speaker 1: once you just mentioned eighteen isn't My Body um, which 1169 01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,000 Speaker 1: was for me, that was the beginning of everything and 1170 01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:58,560 Speaker 1: that and the first song that we worked on, and 1171 01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,360 Speaker 1: UH and Black ju To they'd already had those, They 1172 01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 1: just played them differently they played them. What happened at 1173 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:06,640 Speaker 1: the time was they like they didn't know what you 1174 01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:08,200 Speaker 1: had to do to get a song on the radio. 1175 01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,720 Speaker 1: Neither did I. Honestly, I just did, you know. I 1176 01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:13,880 Speaker 1: just did some quick wood shedding, and I had a 1177 01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,200 Speaker 1: few notes, you know, like Jack would say, well, you 1178 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,680 Speaker 1: gotta be under three minutes to thirty is better. So 1179 01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,240 Speaker 1: I knew stuff like that, right, But I also knew 1180 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,080 Speaker 1: that when listening to them play, you know, they'd lose 1181 01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:26,080 Speaker 1: me for like three minutes in the middle of a song, 1182 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:27,880 Speaker 1: and then they'd come back and it would be different. 1183 01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:30,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't the same as the beginning. And and everybody 1184 01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,640 Speaker 1: was playing lead all the time. So my job was 1185 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,240 Speaker 1: to find the essence of the song, like what you know, 1186 01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,520 Speaker 1: where's the power? There's always a riff. There's always a 1187 01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:44,640 Speaker 1: great riff at the center of an Alice Cooper song, 1188 01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:48,479 Speaker 1: whether it's schools Out or whether it's I'm eighteen and 1189 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,560 Speaker 1: so where's that? And uh? And what are we singing? 1190 01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,760 Speaker 1: And what are we singing about? I was too stupid 1191 01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:58,919 Speaker 1: to know that words didn't matter. I thought they did, 1192 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,560 Speaker 1: and actually turned out I was right. So that's why 1193 01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: American Woman was such a big hit. It was just 1194 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,200 Speaker 1: that phrase, American Woman. So I was really focusing on 1195 01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:14,600 Speaker 1: the melody, the sort of central riff and um and 1196 01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:18,040 Speaker 1: the rhythm, and and I saw those as three separate 1197 01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,720 Speaker 1: tracks that this song would run on at the same time, 1198 01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,920 Speaker 1: and then they had to be coordinated and it had 1199 01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:24,640 Speaker 1: to work. They each had to work with the other 1200 01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:28,960 Speaker 1: so it would be powerful. And basically what I learned 1201 01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:33,960 Speaker 1: from Tchaikovsky is what I applied to Alice Cooper. It's true. 1202 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:39,600 Speaker 1: I know I haven't said that out loud before. It's true. Okay, 1203 01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:46,840 Speaker 1: so you you've talked previously in this UH podcast about 1204 01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,960 Speaker 1: helping write the songs. Did you help write the songs? 1205 01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,760 Speaker 1: Would you say? Or you were just helping arrange them? 1206 01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,840 Speaker 1: You know, I did help write the songs that at 1207 01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:02,240 Speaker 1: that time, but that considered to be production or you know, 1208 01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 1: by anybody, But you know, even me, I thought that 1209 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,480 Speaker 1: was production. I thought, okay, so, how how much pre 1210 01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,160 Speaker 1: production on that first Alice Cooper album? You did? Love 1211 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:12,880 Speaker 1: it to death? And how much time did it take? 1212 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,200 Speaker 1: To actually record it. The pre production period was probably 1213 01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:21,200 Speaker 1: an aggregate around um, four weeks, three or four weeks, 1214 01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:23,559 Speaker 1: because we were slow and we were all just learning 1215 01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:25,600 Speaker 1: our craft, right, so it took me a little a 1216 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,040 Speaker 1: little while. That's just this begs the question, you do 1217 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:31,760 Speaker 1: you have to convince Chep and Coope that you could 1218 01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,280 Speaker 1: do it instead of Jack. Well, they kept saying where's Jack, 1219 01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,240 Speaker 1: Where's Jack? And uh, and I kept saying He's coming, 1220 01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,880 Speaker 1: He's He's He's coming, and I'm and and uh and 1221 01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,080 Speaker 1: he'll he'll love this. And he did come. He came 1222 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:46,280 Speaker 1: for the recording sessions. He was there in the studio 1223 01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:51,799 Speaker 1: and very much a presence and uh, but um, instead 1224 01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:55,760 Speaker 1: of taking over the console and stepping up to the 1225 01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,280 Speaker 1: front and elbowing me to the back uh couch like 1226 01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:02,360 Speaker 1: like we were doing before, he kicked me forward. And 1227 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:06,479 Speaker 1: he would basically he would like kick me in the ass, 1228 01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,120 Speaker 1: like literally, I have to feel his foot when I 1229 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:11,120 Speaker 1: was about to do something really stupid, or if I'd 1230 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,360 Speaker 1: done something that was already really stupid. And then we 1231 01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:15,799 Speaker 1: you know, we had this engineer too, called Brian Christian, 1232 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:20,280 Speaker 1: who was like this this big muscle bound southside Chicago guy, 1233 01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,759 Speaker 1: looked like a hitman for the Mob, and he talked 1234 01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,680 Speaker 1: like one too, And but he was a great engineer. 1235 01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,639 Speaker 1: He was a Union engineer. This was a Union house, 1236 01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,600 Speaker 1: so he had to be really careful, and once in 1237 01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:33,879 Speaker 1: a while I would touch the console, he would slap 1238 01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:38,519 Speaker 1: my hand literally. So on those first four songs, we 1239 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,320 Speaker 1: did four songs to start because Warner Brothers was not 1240 01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:45,240 Speaker 1: convinced that this team could do this, and they didn't 1241 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,599 Speaker 1: know me from Adam, and even though they got Jack richardson, 1242 01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,400 Speaker 1: they weren't really sure what that meant. But then they 1243 01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:52,960 Speaker 1: heard the first four songs and then we got that 1244 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:55,040 Speaker 1: green light for the rest of the album. And and 1245 01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,559 Speaker 1: a little bit of time passed between those first four 1246 01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:00,400 Speaker 1: songs and coming back to the studio. By each time, 1247 01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:05,240 Speaker 1: I was feeling like, you know, my ideas are not valueless. 1248 01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,200 Speaker 1: I think I think we're onto something here. So I 1249 01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,240 Speaker 1: started being more aggressive, not with the band, but with 1250 01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:15,880 Speaker 1: with Brian and and Jackson. One time Brian slapped my hand. 1251 01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:19,360 Speaker 1: Get your fucking hand off, my counsel, and I said, 1252 01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:23,360 Speaker 1: it's a console, asshole, And I'm the producer on this project. 1253 01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:25,960 Speaker 1: If I want to touch the console, I'm gonna touch 1254 01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,640 Speaker 1: the console and he laughed and it just gave me 1255 01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,880 Speaker 1: this the biggest bear hug of my life. And uh, 1256 01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:34,759 Speaker 1: and I was in okay, now I'm in the club, 1257 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,120 Speaker 1: and then it was okay to touch stuff. You know. 1258 01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:41,120 Speaker 1: So the the actual recording, the question about the recording, 1259 01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,479 Speaker 1: It took us in uh, in total, three weeks to 1260 01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:49,760 Speaker 1: record an eighteen hours to mix eight hours non stuff. 1261 01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,120 Speaker 1: That's a difference. Okay, the record is done. Do you 1262 01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:57,280 Speaker 1: think you have something? Oh? Yeah, I listen, what do 1263 01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:59,639 Speaker 1: I know? This is my first album? Right, I loved 1264 01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, I was just in love with myself. I 1265 01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,639 Speaker 1: made it. I survived for openers and and and secondly, 1266 01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, like some of the songs were stuck in 1267 01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:10,800 Speaker 1: my head. And also some professional people who do that 1268 01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:14,000 Speaker 1: for a living looked at me and said that's really good. 1269 01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,960 Speaker 1: And that all of that combination of stuff made me 1270 01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,559 Speaker 1: feel like a you know, like you know this this 1271 01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:22,960 Speaker 1: is this is good, this is gonna work. And then 1272 01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,360 Speaker 1: and then and then you know, I'm a team gets 1273 01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,759 Speaker 1: broken out of out of Windsor, Ontario and c KLW. 1274 01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,800 Speaker 1: The big a Rosalie Trombley, who was the most important 1275 01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:39,280 Speaker 1: music music director in radio in North America, believe it 1276 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,759 Speaker 1: or not, because coming out of Winstor, Ontario, they beamed 1277 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:47,719 Speaker 1: into the Detroit Metroplex. They had a massive audience and 1278 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,240 Speaker 1: uh and Alice Cooper's a Detroit band, and shep was 1279 01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,840 Speaker 1: really smart and sent a limousine across the border to 1280 01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,960 Speaker 1: go pick Tim her son who later worked for me 1281 01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:01,559 Speaker 1: by the way when grew up. But that's another story. 1282 01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,800 Speaker 1: So he went and picked him up by limousine from 1283 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,000 Speaker 1: school and brought him home and gave him the single 1284 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,479 Speaker 1: to give his mom and Tim and Tim and his 1285 01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:10,479 Speaker 1: sister played it and they fell in love with it. 1286 01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,120 Speaker 1: They were the ones who said, Mom, you gotta play 1287 01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:15,400 Speaker 1: this record. And that's how it happened. Just from that 1288 01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:19,840 Speaker 1: point on, we were golden. Okay, Between Love It to 1289 01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:24,599 Speaker 1: Death and Killer Did, what did you work on? Um? Well, 1290 01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,000 Speaker 1: I had a couple of things. I mean, right after 1291 01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:29,920 Speaker 1: Love It to Death, Um, I I did a New 1292 01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:34,400 Speaker 1: York record um that nobody ever heard and probably never 1293 01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:36,800 Speaker 1: will for an artist called David MQ. It was a 1294 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,920 Speaker 1: great experience because it was my first time working with 1295 01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,240 Speaker 1: orchestra in his studio and and all session players, which 1296 01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,920 Speaker 1: really opened my eyes. UM. And I did that with 1297 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:50,479 Speaker 1: David Green, who was again a wonderful mentor and teacher. 1298 01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,599 Speaker 1: But the record was terrible. And then I did Then 1299 01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:57,479 Speaker 1: I did a record with um uh, Mitch Rider in 1300 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:01,919 Speaker 1: a band called Detroit out of Detroit. They loved their manager, 1301 01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,480 Speaker 1: Barry Kramer, who was also the publisher of Cream magazine. 1302 01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:10,680 Speaker 1: Um founder and publisher of Cream Magazine. He loved the 1303 01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:12,600 Speaker 1: sound of that Alice Cooper record, and he was the 1304 01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,240 Speaker 1: one who decided, you know, for his band for for 1305 01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 1: for Billy it's his real name, Billy Levis, Mitch Rider 1306 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:23,160 Speaker 1: and the band Detroit. They wanted me, so they hired me. 1307 01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:26,519 Speaker 1: And part of what what I did on that record 1308 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:29,280 Speaker 1: was a cover of a lou Reid song called rock 1309 01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:32,960 Speaker 1: and Roll? Was that? Was that your idea or their idea? 1310 01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:37,680 Speaker 1: The song itself was I I think, I think, I don't. 1311 01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:39,080 Speaker 1: I don't know how we you know, I think we 1312 01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:41,080 Speaker 1: sat in a circle and somebody, you know, we picked 1313 01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,320 Speaker 1: all the material because Billy was not a writer, right, 1314 01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,599 Speaker 1: we had one or two Uh, we didn't have that 1315 01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,080 Speaker 1: many originals, so we were doing a lot of cover stuff. 1316 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,960 Speaker 1: Um wasn't my idea? Probably not because because at that 1317 01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:57,479 Speaker 1: time I wasn't really that it wasn't much of a 1318 01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,240 Speaker 1: velvet fan. And that's why now, and I wasn't a 1319 01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,360 Speaker 1: velvets fan. I didn't. I didn't really know them. Um. 1320 01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,040 Speaker 1: I was still just trying to find my way out 1321 01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:07,960 Speaker 1: of the bulrushes. Man. I was like, I was a 1322 01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,360 Speaker 1: folky for you know, it's like five minutes ago I 1323 01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:13,559 Speaker 1: was playing you know, Coomba, Oh my lord, now here 1324 01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:17,439 Speaker 1: I am, you know, saying you know, bodies need their rest, 1325 01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:21,800 Speaker 1: you know. So anyway, you know, we did this thing, 1326 01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,040 Speaker 1: and and we had just hired Steve Hunter. In fact, 1327 01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:27,839 Speaker 1: the band picked him up out of a club in Decatur, 1328 01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,479 Speaker 1: Illinois while they were doing touring and brought him back 1329 01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:32,559 Speaker 1: to Detroit and just announced him to me. They go, 1330 01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,519 Speaker 1: by the way, this is our new guitar player. And 1331 01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:39,680 Speaker 1: this he was just like ratty looking little guy with 1332 01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,760 Speaker 1: coke bottled glasses and and an s G and a 1333 01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:45,360 Speaker 1: teeny little lamp. And he kind of sat in the corner, 1334 01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,160 Speaker 1: was very very shy, that kind of played on his 1335 01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:51,360 Speaker 1: own and all that stuff. And one day in the 1336 01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of rehearsal, I was just I just thought, okay, this, 1337 01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:55,439 Speaker 1: you know, we gotta do something about this. So I 1338 01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:58,960 Speaker 1: I stopped the rearsul we had we had a double 1339 01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,320 Speaker 1: stack of marshals that one of the other guys used, 1340 01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:04,840 Speaker 1: and we hooked him up together, and we brought Steve 1341 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,240 Speaker 1: to the middle of the room and I plugged him 1342 01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:09,160 Speaker 1: into the double stack of marshals. And when we took it, 1343 01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,639 Speaker 1: when we went from standby just on, the hum alone 1344 01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,479 Speaker 1: was louder than the band had been. And and Steve 1345 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:17,479 Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, and then he started to 1346 01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:22,559 Speaker 1: play that. You know, there's nothing quite like having that 1347 01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,679 Speaker 1: piece of wood and metal in your hand and being 1348 01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:30,120 Speaker 1: able to make that much noise from it and having 1349 01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,720 Speaker 1: such power, you know, the sustain alone, It was just 1350 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:36,240 Speaker 1: it changed his life. That moment changed his life. He 1351 01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:40,040 Speaker 1: started playing like Hendrix. It was good enough. You know 1352 01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:42,040 Speaker 1: this He didn't just learn at that moment. He had 1353 01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:44,080 Speaker 1: always known it, but he couldn't. He didn't have the 1354 01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,040 Speaker 1: confidence to step out and do it. And then when 1355 01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:49,240 Speaker 1: he heard that sound, it just moved him so much. 1356 01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,479 Speaker 1: And everybody from Cream magazine, everybody that was in that 1357 01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,000 Speaker 1: whole building, including Dave marsha might be one of the 1358 01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:59,400 Speaker 1: sourest people in music. Dave marsh came running in and 1359 01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:04,720 Speaker 1: went Wow, that's amazing about Steve Hunter. So he was 1360 01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:06,479 Speaker 1: our guy. So when we came to a rock and 1361 01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:10,080 Speaker 1: roll I needed a riff. That's what I had learned. 1362 01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:12,880 Speaker 1: Good songs had a riff. I needed a good riff, 1363 01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,200 Speaker 1: and Steve Hunter came up with Da Da Da Da 1364 01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:18,960 Speaker 1: Da Da Da Da Da Da Da da and and 1365 01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,920 Speaker 1: so we cut the whole song. We did a fairly 1366 01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:25,120 Speaker 1: good job of it, though I really screwed up the 1367 01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:27,920 Speaker 1: recording of the of the snare drum, which bothers me 1368 01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:31,519 Speaker 1: to this day. Um, but I'm just about to make 1369 01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:36,240 Speaker 1: up for it. Actually, I I just uh stopped mixing 1370 01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,680 Speaker 1: rock and roll my new version to do this podcast. 1371 01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:44,080 Speaker 1: That's true. It's the truth, and Steve's on it and 1372 01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,479 Speaker 1: Joe Bonamassa. What a team. Oh my god, they're so good. Anyway, 1373 01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,400 Speaker 1: So so we cut this thing and it came out 1374 01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:56,559 Speaker 1: and apparently, um, that was the best cover of any 1375 01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:59,160 Speaker 1: of his songs that lou had ever heard. And that's 1376 01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:02,120 Speaker 1: how I got to work with Lou REI. Okay, but 1377 01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,800 Speaker 1: Berlin came out in seventy three and Killer came out 1378 01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:10,680 Speaker 1: at the end of seventy one, so this was so 1379 01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:13,280 Speaker 1: you you know, and me. I think, actually we may 1380 01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:16,200 Speaker 1: have done Killer before we did before I did Detroit, 1381 01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:20,560 Speaker 1: the Detroit album. Okay, so let's go back. Let's go 1382 01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:24,120 Speaker 1: back to Killer. All I know about Killer was Alice 1383 01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:28,960 Speaker 1: Cooper was a joke. And I read this unbelievable review 1384 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:34,400 Speaker 1: boxed off in Rolling Stone by Lester It was it 1385 01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,840 Speaker 1: was a tragic waste of plastic? Right, was that the one? No? No, 1386 01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:41,519 Speaker 1: this was the one that he said, this is unbelievable. Okay, okay, 1387 01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,240 Speaker 1: really I had to look it up. He went on 1388 01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:46,479 Speaker 1: or not, and I literally this. You know, people say 1389 01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:48,920 Speaker 1: they bought albums based on the cover. I never did that. 1390 01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,439 Speaker 1: I did, but but the review was so amazing that 1391 01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,880 Speaker 1: I didn't know whether it was a joker real. So 1392 01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,920 Speaker 1: I had to buy the album. You Dropped the Needle 1393 01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,000 Speaker 1: and first heard of My Wheels, the sound and the 1394 01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:04,960 Speaker 1: humor involved, and then it went into Be My Lover 1395 01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,280 Speaker 1: and ultimately Halo of Flies. It was like, unbelievable. So 1396 01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:11,000 Speaker 1: it tell us about the creation of that record. Well, 1397 01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:13,760 Speaker 1: I think that what what that record really did was 1398 01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:20,440 Speaker 1: it it um uh. It incorporated their actual true personalities. 1399 01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:22,559 Speaker 1: Like the first one, we were trying to be something, 1400 01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:24,720 Speaker 1: we were trying to have a hit record, and we 1401 01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:27,800 Speaker 1: were trying to play by the rules, so to speak. 1402 01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:30,600 Speaker 1: Although there were certain things that we did where, you know, 1403 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:32,880 Speaker 1: we just weren't going to We just weren't, you know, 1404 01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,920 Speaker 1: no matter. You know, people said, black Juju, you can't 1405 01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:36,679 Speaker 1: put that on a record, and we were just like, oh, yeah, 1406 01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,439 Speaker 1: we are because it's great and we love it, so 1407 01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,760 Speaker 1: it's going. But um, when it came time to kill Her, 1408 01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,960 Speaker 1: it was more to do killer. It was more about, um, 1409 01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,040 Speaker 1: the stuff that we hadn't been able to do that 1410 01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:51,960 Speaker 1: if we could figure out a way to do it 1411 01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:54,800 Speaker 1: so that it made a good record. But it's still 1412 01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,840 Speaker 1: had the sense of humor, it's still had the theatricality, 1413 01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:02,240 Speaker 1: it's still had these different characters that Alice would play 1414 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:08,080 Speaker 1: on stage that we're frowned upon by normal record makers. Right, 1415 01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,600 Speaker 1: So so this gave it, you know, we had a 1416 01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:14,240 Speaker 1: broader palette and and and we had leeway, we had 1417 01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:19,080 Speaker 1: license because we had a successful album just behind us. 1418 01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:22,120 Speaker 1: This was only nine months later that we that this 1419 01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:24,439 Speaker 1: thing came out, So so we were already we were 1420 01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,920 Speaker 1: riding a wave and people were listening, and that allowed 1421 01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:29,960 Speaker 1: us to do some things that we had never done before, 1422 01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,639 Speaker 1: allowed me to start using orchestral instruments that I actually 1423 01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,360 Speaker 1: wrote the parts for. And honest to god, I didn't 1424 01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,920 Speaker 1: even know the range of the cello before. I had 1425 01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:43,200 Speaker 1: to call Alan McMillan at the office and go, Alan, like, 1426 01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:46,720 Speaker 1: what's the low note of a cello? So that so 1427 01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,360 Speaker 1: I can figure out what to write, you know, and 1428 01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:52,320 Speaker 1: and and and I wrote this, you know, the French 1429 01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:58,559 Speaker 1: horn part uh for um Halo of Flies. I think 1430 01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,720 Speaker 1: it was, but I may be wrong which song it is. 1431 01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:04,439 Speaker 1: And but there were two great French horn players, one 1432 01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:07,800 Speaker 1: of which was Dale Clevinger, who was the principal horn 1433 01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,479 Speaker 1: for the Chicago Sympathy. And here he is in the 1434 01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:13,840 Speaker 1: studio with Alice Cooper, and this kid, this hippie from 1435 01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,040 Speaker 1: Canada who doesn't know his asked from his elbow, and 1436 01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:17,439 Speaker 1: he looked at the chart, and he looked at me 1437 01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:21,240 Speaker 1: and he said, I don't think that's what you really 1438 01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:26,760 Speaker 1: want me to play. And I said, well, uh, what 1439 01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,800 Speaker 1: do you think I wanted to play? And he did 1440 01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:32,320 Speaker 1: some corrections of accidentals and things that you know that 1441 01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:34,920 Speaker 1: I got wrong, and and and then he played it 1442 01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,479 Speaker 1: and I learned right that moment you know what, you know, 1443 01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,600 Speaker 1: the power notes for the French horn and stuff like that, 1444 01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:43,880 Speaker 1: all of which goes into the memory bank, all of 1445 01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:48,559 Speaker 1: which at some point in your life becomes useful. Okay, 1446 01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:52,800 Speaker 1: So let's go back to the Lou Reed story. So 1447 01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,000 Speaker 1: Lou here's the trans version of rock and roll. It's 1448 01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:59,320 Speaker 1: the favorite cover he has of his material. So he 1449 01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,519 Speaker 1: tracks you, Yeah, he tracks me. They tracked me down 1450 01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:07,599 Speaker 1: um uh Dennis Katz, who was his manager at the time, 1451 01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:10,840 Speaker 1: found me in Toronto and they invited me to come 1452 01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,760 Speaker 1: to uh Massey Hall to see who played live the 1453 01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,320 Speaker 1: opening act that night. It was a band called Genesis. 1454 01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,800 Speaker 1: And I had become friends with the number of the 1455 01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,280 Speaker 1: DJs at CHUM FM, which was like our this was 1456 01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:28,720 Speaker 1: our FM er in Toronto, you know, in those days 1457 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,360 Speaker 1: it was experimental radio. They played, the DJs played what 1458 01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:34,760 Speaker 1: they wanted to play, and they found things. They went 1459 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:37,560 Speaker 1: to record stores and bought something at four o'clock in 1460 01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:39,200 Speaker 1: the afternoon and it was on the air by ten 1461 01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:42,760 Speaker 1: o'clock at night. So they've been playing Genesis and and 1462 01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:47,920 Speaker 1: I was very impressed with just the complexity of it, 1463 01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:51,479 Speaker 1: the musicianship, everything about it, the the sound of and 1464 01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:55,519 Speaker 1: the sound of of the lead vocal So I wanted 1465 01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,719 Speaker 1: to go see this band. So I said to Dennis, 1466 01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:01,120 Speaker 1: look at you know, if you mind, I'd like to 1467 01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:03,040 Speaker 1: get there in time for the opening act. He said, no, 1468 01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:05,000 Speaker 1: no problem. So we went and we saw a Genesis 1469 01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:08,800 Speaker 1: and by the time Peter Gabriel rose up on an 1470 01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:11,760 Speaker 1: elevator from beneath the stage with a flower on his head, 1471 01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:15,800 Speaker 1: and he'd already sung um Watcher and a couple of 1472 01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:18,600 Speaker 1: other things like by that. By that time, I was 1473 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:21,880 Speaker 1: just like beyond mesmerized. My jaw was in my lap 1474 01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:25,400 Speaker 1: and it was everything I could do to not just 1475 01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:28,680 Speaker 1: rhapsodized to the to the manager of the guy I'm 1476 01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:31,360 Speaker 1: really supposed to be seeing about this other band. So 1477 01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:33,000 Speaker 1: I was just trying to be careful and you know, 1478 01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:35,479 Speaker 1: to keep it under control. And then Louis came out 1479 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:39,040 Speaker 1: and that was another animal altogether. The he would animal 1480 01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:41,920 Speaker 1: is a good term. He was like a feral creature. 1481 01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:47,000 Speaker 1: He owned that stage. He was he was dangerous, he 1482 01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:49,560 Speaker 1: was he was scary, you know, and and uh and 1483 01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:52,640 Speaker 1: and and at the same time, he seemed to be 1484 01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:55,720 Speaker 1: completely unconcerned with the audience in front of him. He 1485 01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:58,920 Speaker 1: didn't give a ship whether people were clapping not clapping. 1486 01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:03,439 Speaker 1: He was just in his show. So when it was over, 1487 01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:07,200 Speaker 1: I filed it away and I said, I am honored 1488 01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,879 Speaker 1: to work with lou Reid. Thank you, Dennis. And to myself, 1489 01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,000 Speaker 1: I said, but get me that kid with the flower 1490 01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:17,799 Speaker 1: on his head. Okay. Did you meet Peter Gabriel that evening? No? Okay, 1491 01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:20,599 Speaker 1: so now you make a deal to work with lou Reid. 1492 01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:23,400 Speaker 1: Tell us the next steps. The next step, Well, the 1493 01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,320 Speaker 1: next step was, you know, he came to my house 1494 01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:28,840 Speaker 1: and we met after the show. We went to my 1495 01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:33,280 Speaker 1: house and we sat on the floor of of the 1496 01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:37,800 Speaker 1: living room. Uh. He played guitar and he played me 1497 01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,080 Speaker 1: some songs. And I have been doing my research, so 1498 01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:43,680 Speaker 1: before I went to see him, I I by that 1499 01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:45,800 Speaker 1: time then I did know the velvets, and I knew 1500 01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:49,200 Speaker 1: everything he'd written in every album he've done. So he 1501 01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,519 Speaker 1: sat down on the floor and he started to play 1502 01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:54,080 Speaker 1: what he was thinking of for this new project. He 1503 01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:59,040 Speaker 1: wanted an anti transformer. He you know, in a way, 1504 01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,800 Speaker 1: the commercial success of Walk on the wild Side really 1505 01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,920 Speaker 1: bothered him because it's not who we saw himself as, 1506 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,720 Speaker 1: and people then try to make him a rock star 1507 01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:11,640 Speaker 1: or a pop star, and he did not want that 1508 01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,719 Speaker 1: on any level. So he wanted to make an anti 1509 01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:18,400 Speaker 1: Transformer record. And and he started playing me these songs. 1510 01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:20,840 Speaker 1: They were good, they were lou reed songs, of course 1511 01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,479 Speaker 1: they were good, but they didn't seem to have any 1512 01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,559 Speaker 1: real point of view and and and I just didn't, 1513 01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:30,439 Speaker 1: you know, for me, they were missing some of the 1514 01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:36,680 Speaker 1: drama and the uh, the evocative qualities of some of 1515 01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:39,519 Speaker 1: the other things that he had written before. And and 1516 01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:43,080 Speaker 1: so I said to him, you know, look, listen, these 1517 01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:48,679 Speaker 1: are good, but every once in a while, more often 1518 01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:51,840 Speaker 1: than most to anybody else that I've listened to, you 1519 01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:54,599 Speaker 1: tell a whole life in two minutes and forty seconds. 1520 01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:01,120 Speaker 1: And that, to me, that's magic, Like why can't we 1521 01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:04,840 Speaker 1: do something like that but expand it? Because I always 1522 01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:07,880 Speaker 1: find myself saying, what happened to that guy? Or what 1523 01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:10,120 Speaker 1: happened to those two people? And I said to him, 1524 01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:15,880 Speaker 1: like that song you wrote called Berlin, I've often thought 1525 01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,040 Speaker 1: whatever happened to those two people? I said, we should 1526 01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:23,240 Speaker 1: think about doing something like Berlin and make a story 1527 01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,599 Speaker 1: out of it. And then I said, wait a minute, 1528 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,439 Speaker 1: we shouldn't think about doing something like Berlin. It's your 1529 01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,240 Speaker 1: fucking song. Let's do Berlin. Why don't we do that? 1530 01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,640 Speaker 1: Why don't we take Berlin, Why don't we take the 1531 01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:38,800 Speaker 1: beginning of the story, and why don't we take it 1532 01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:42,080 Speaker 1: to where those two people would have ended up? And 1533 01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:46,000 Speaker 1: he loved that. He was like he just stared at 1534 01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:49,240 Speaker 1: me for a minute, and he just said, give me 1535 01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:51,280 Speaker 1: a few weeks. And I was it and he left. 1536 01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:54,439 Speaker 1: And about four weeks later he came back and played 1537 01:25:54,479 --> 01:25:56,639 Speaker 1: me Caroline says on my on the on the living 1538 01:25:56,720 --> 01:26:00,519 Speaker 1: room floor in that same position, and I got goose flesh. 1539 01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:04,639 Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, this is this is heavy stuff. 1540 01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:08,559 Speaker 1: This is really powerful, and and I said to him, 1541 01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,280 Speaker 1: give me a few weeks. So he gave me the 1542 01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:13,640 Speaker 1: songs and then I went into the studio and for 1543 01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:16,640 Speaker 1: the first time ever in my career, I didn't have 1544 01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:18,479 Speaker 1: a band to work with. I couldn't say try this, 1545 01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:20,720 Speaker 1: play that, do this, do that. I had nothing. I 1546 01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:24,120 Speaker 1: just had me. So I went into the studio we 1547 01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:26,439 Speaker 1: were building. It wasn't even done yet. It just had 1548 01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:29,560 Speaker 1: a piano in the middle of the room. And I 1549 01:26:29,680 --> 01:26:33,880 Speaker 1: sat there at the piano and I just imagined what 1550 01:26:34,080 --> 01:26:35,799 Speaker 1: the songs ought to be like. And then I started 1551 01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:39,120 Speaker 1: playing them for myself, like like this is how I 1552 01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:42,960 Speaker 1: hear it. I'll say that again, like this is how 1553 01:26:43,040 --> 01:26:45,760 Speaker 1: I hear it, this is this is this is where 1554 01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:48,120 Speaker 1: the base would go, and these are the big shots. 1555 01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:50,880 Speaker 1: Here's the riff, that sort of stuff. And then I 1556 01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:54,439 Speaker 1: got Alan McMillan to come in and I said, Alan, 1557 01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,240 Speaker 1: I can't write this down. I'm way too slow and 1558 01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:00,960 Speaker 1: it will disappear before I before I ever get it written, 1559 01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,800 Speaker 1: I'll forget. So would you mind please help me with this? 1560 01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,000 Speaker 1: And so he he started writing it down, and then 1561 01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:07,320 Speaker 1: we fleshed it out, and I said, you know what, 1562 01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:09,360 Speaker 1: what if we had an orchestra, Like what if we 1563 01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:13,160 Speaker 1: really had an orchestra and they played you know, Dad 1564 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,559 Speaker 1: at it and and and he started writing that down. 1565 01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,760 Speaker 1: It was not like the scene from Amadeus. Alan and 1566 01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:25,280 Speaker 1: I were collaborating. He wasn't stealing, and we were collaborating. 1567 01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,360 Speaker 1: He came up with great ideas. He helped me so 1568 01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:31,080 Speaker 1: much in that moment, so that by the time lou 1569 01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:33,240 Speaker 1: and I got back together, I could sit at the 1570 01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:38,040 Speaker 1: piano and play him the record and he could hear it. 1571 01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:41,479 Speaker 1: He heard it, and he loved it. So we took 1572 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,960 Speaker 1: that the combination of these a couple of weeks for 1573 01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:47,760 Speaker 1: each of us, and we went to London to cut 1574 01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:51,919 Speaker 1: the record, all with studio, well actually all with guest performers, 1575 01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:54,360 Speaker 1: some of them had never done studio work before. It 1576 01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:57,880 Speaker 1: included Steve Hunter, who I loved and could count on 1577 01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:03,040 Speaker 1: in just about any circle stands. It also concluded the 1578 01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:05,720 Speaker 1: late grade Jack Bruce, who I've I learned to love. 1579 01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,200 Speaker 1: He was difficult, but he was amazing. Um. And and 1580 01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:14,400 Speaker 1: I had b. J. Wilson from Procol harm Barry Wilson 1581 01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:18,720 Speaker 1: played his last session on that before he died, uh, 1582 01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, an untimely death. And and I had uh 1583 01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:28,760 Speaker 1: Stevie Winwood on on the on the song called the Kids, 1584 01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,280 Speaker 1: Stevie Winwood and I played harmoniums facing each other. We 1585 01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:36,200 Speaker 1: were playing pedal harmoniums and playing with each other's part. 1586 01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,599 Speaker 1: And and uh, I know I'm forgetting out the people. 1587 01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:43,599 Speaker 1: And Jean Martinek, who was an amazing musician from Toronto 1588 01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:46,160 Speaker 1: who was also a student of Leghetti. And he's the 1589 01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:50,760 Speaker 1: guy who came up with that atonal choir thing that 1590 01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:57,040 Speaker 1: to sound like the moment of death. Anyway, as you 1591 01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:00,960 Speaker 1: could tell, it was an exciting experience sounds expensive. Was 1592 01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:03,960 Speaker 1: it expensive? It wasn't. No, no, no, no. We worked fast. 1593 01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:06,960 Speaker 1: We were really fast. We did not spend a lot 1594 01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:09,120 Speaker 1: of money. Nobody would give you a lot of money 1595 01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:11,280 Speaker 1: in those days. Not like Okay, the record comes out 1596 01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:15,160 Speaker 1: into my memory, especially coming after a hit. Reviews were 1597 01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,880 Speaker 1: not charitable, they were well, they went both ways. There 1598 01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:21,400 Speaker 1: was one review that said Sergeant Pepper of the seventies, 1599 01:29:21,479 --> 01:29:25,040 Speaker 1: which was completely untrue and and inappropriate. But but the 1600 01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:28,280 Speaker 1: but the reviewer just loved the record to pieces. And 1601 01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:30,400 Speaker 1: then there were others who said that I had destroyed 1602 01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:35,240 Speaker 1: Lou's career and he would never recover. And yeah, so it, 1603 01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, definitely got a reaction that one. Like there 1604 01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:41,559 Speaker 1: was nobody who was on the fence about Berlin. They 1605 01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:44,160 Speaker 1: either loved it or they hated it. But it was 1606 01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:48,160 Speaker 1: also it was also an extremely difficult process for both 1607 01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:50,599 Speaker 1: of us. He was going through a really rough period 1608 01:29:50,640 --> 01:29:55,800 Speaker 1: of time. I I was, you know, I was too 1609 01:29:55,920 --> 01:30:00,840 Speaker 1: young to be able to resist tempta during the making 1610 01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:04,439 Speaker 1: and things. So I started, I started, you know, doing 1611 01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:07,599 Speaker 1: drugs along with some of the other people, and and uh, 1612 01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:09,960 Speaker 1: and then I suffered when we stopped because I didn't 1613 01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,560 Speaker 1: know that you would feel bad afterwards, you know. And 1614 01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:17,080 Speaker 1: I felt horrible and and and also just the emotion, 1615 01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:20,200 Speaker 1: the emotion tied up in it, like every song is 1616 01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:23,280 Speaker 1: a you know, melodrama. And I had to listen to 1617 01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:26,519 Speaker 1: those sounds like it's okay, any listener that wants to 1618 01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:28,800 Speaker 1: complain about listening to Berlin you only had to hear 1619 01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:31,839 Speaker 1: it once. I had to hear it thousands of times. 1620 01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:36,080 Speaker 1: And those you know, getting the kids, getting the screaming kids, 1621 01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, and then making it sound like that. That 1622 01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:42,160 Speaker 1: was you know, it was intense. My I did not 1623 01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:47,920 Speaker 1: torture my children. My son David was uh five and 1624 01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:50,360 Speaker 1: a half I think at the time, and Joshua was 1625 01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:53,639 Speaker 1: like too. And I told David the story. I said, Okay, 1626 01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,120 Speaker 1: I want you to go outside and once your pound 1627 01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:57,200 Speaker 1: on the door. I need to record this because I'm 1628 01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:01,000 Speaker 1: doing a story about a kid and his mom is 1629 01:31:01,040 --> 01:31:04,000 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and she can't hear him. So what 1630 01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:05,920 Speaker 1: I want you to do is is not as hard 1631 01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:08,599 Speaker 1: as you can and you know, mommy, mommy, mommy, until 1632 01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:12,360 Speaker 1: she comes out. He said, okay. So I had a Nagra, 1633 01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:14,519 Speaker 1: a little portable tape machine on the other side of 1634 01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:17,640 Speaker 1: the door, and David starts pounding, yelling mommy. I have 1635 01:31:17,720 --> 01:31:19,840 Speaker 1: a microphone on his side and a microphone on my side, 1636 01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:23,200 Speaker 1: so I got the the real sound of the door pounding, 1637 01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:26,599 Speaker 1: and Joshua had followed him outside. Joshua was like too, 1638 01:31:26,760 --> 01:31:28,240 Speaker 1: he didn't know what was going on. But and you 1639 01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:30,280 Speaker 1: can even hear him if you ever solo that track 1640 01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:32,519 Speaker 1: where he goes like, but it's after that the mummy like, 1641 01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:35,280 Speaker 1: why are we calling mommy? She's right there, you know. 1642 01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:37,720 Speaker 1: But then he starts yelling and and so then I 1643 01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:40,400 Speaker 1: got the two of them yelling mommy, mommy, pounding, and 1644 01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:43,400 Speaker 1: I took that to the studio and put it through, 1645 01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, basically like a cheese grater, to just make 1646 01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:52,200 Speaker 1: it sound horrible. It's just I just compressed it and 1647 01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:55,639 Speaker 1: distorted it and compressed it more and distorted it more 1648 01:31:55,960 --> 01:32:00,439 Speaker 1: until it was so in your face and so uhverwhelming 1649 01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:04,560 Speaker 1: emotionally that it would bring normal people to tears. And 1650 01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:08,000 Speaker 1: it did, like they were uh one one of one 1651 01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:10,840 Speaker 1: of Loo's assistants went running crying out of the control 1652 01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:14,080 Speaker 1: room when we first played the album. Was Lou happy, 1653 01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:19,600 Speaker 1: and was Lou happy after the record came out. I 1654 01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:24,040 Speaker 1: think that I think that Lou was um relieved. He 1655 01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:27,240 Speaker 1: was always proud of it, and he didn't like It's 1656 01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,320 Speaker 1: Lou he didn't give a ship what the critics said. 1657 01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:33,160 Speaker 1: He didn't care. But it was such a gut wrenching 1658 01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:38,519 Speaker 1: experience for him, one that he never forgot and valued 1659 01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,920 Speaker 1: for his entire life, and one that knit us together 1660 01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:46,799 Speaker 1: as as really deep, dear, true friends, like real friends 1661 01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:49,680 Speaker 1: for the rest of his life for you know that. 1662 01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:52,920 Speaker 1: So he was proud of it, he admired it, but 1663 01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:56,200 Speaker 1: he never wanted to hear it again, he said, he said, 1664 01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:58,639 Speaker 1: he said, let's just walk it away in the closet 1665 01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,800 Speaker 1: and uh, and we won't have to do that again now. 1666 01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:05,880 Speaker 1: He ultimately after that goes on the road, probably the 1667 01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:10,519 Speaker 1: stage and a very rock version of all that came 1668 01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:13,479 Speaker 1: before with Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner. Did you have 1669 01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:15,880 Speaker 1: anything to do with that? That was my house band. 1670 01:33:16,240 --> 01:33:19,640 Speaker 1: So that included Penty Gland or Whitey we called him 1671 01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:22,920 Speaker 1: Whitey Gland and per Cash John who had played in 1672 01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:26,000 Speaker 1: The Mandela, and Joey Charowski, who was the keyboard player 1673 01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:28,400 Speaker 1: of The Mandela and was one of the greatest keyboard 1674 01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:33,160 Speaker 1: players I ever worked with until he lost his mind, 1675 01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:35,519 Speaker 1: got married to a woman and ran into the woods 1676 01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:38,240 Speaker 1: and never came back. He actually became a very he 1677 01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:44,000 Speaker 1: actually became a very successful uh lumberman, like seriously anyway, 1678 01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:46,120 Speaker 1: So a forester, that's the word I was looking for. 1679 01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,080 Speaker 1: So yes, So that was kind of my house band. 1680 01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:54,000 Speaker 1: Those guys plus Wagner and Hunter and all of them 1681 01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:57,479 Speaker 1: played on so many different things. I mean Joey and 1682 01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:02,880 Speaker 1: Um and Steve and and Dick as well also played 1683 01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:07,280 Speaker 1: on Peter gabriel solo album and anyway, So yeah, so 1684 01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:11,320 Speaker 1: Lou got lu He liked the sound of those people. 1685 01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:14,200 Speaker 1: He certainly knew what Steve was doing because he had 1686 01:34:14,240 --> 01:34:16,840 Speaker 1: been a fan of Steve since Rock and Roll and 1687 01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:19,599 Speaker 1: U and it may have been Steve that said, hey, 1688 01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,960 Speaker 1: look I I'm playing a lot with this group of guys, 1689 01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,519 Speaker 1: you know, like we should get together. I don't know, 1690 01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:27,280 Speaker 1: I don't know who the original idea was, but these 1691 01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:31,840 Speaker 1: were all people that were linked, um basically through Nimbus. Now, 1692 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:36,559 Speaker 1: ultimately decades later, you did a performance of Berlin. How 1693 01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:39,479 Speaker 1: did that come together? Because Lou, my friend and I 1694 01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:44,160 Speaker 1: were um across the street from his house having a dinner, 1695 01:34:44,439 --> 01:34:48,599 Speaker 1: and and Julian Schnabel, the the artist and film director, 1696 01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:52,599 Speaker 1: walked in and a friend of Luz, but he had 1697 01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:54,479 Speaker 1: never met me before. And when lu said, you know, 1698 01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:57,560 Speaker 1: this is bob Ezn, he got on his knees in 1699 01:34:57,720 --> 01:34:59,320 Speaker 1: front of the two of us and he held our 1700 01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:01,720 Speaker 1: hands and he just said, now you listen to me. 1701 01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:07,679 Speaker 1: He said, Berlin is why I'm an artist. He said, 1702 01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:10,920 Speaker 1: Berlin is what I played when I started for work, 1703 01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:14,600 Speaker 1: and I still play it and YouTube. You have to 1704 01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:18,760 Speaker 1: promise me that you will do it live. We'd had 1705 01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:20,800 Speaker 1: that conversation many times in the past, lou and I 1706 01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:22,920 Speaker 1: and we well, we we always came away and saying, yeah, 1707 01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:24,240 Speaker 1: we gotta do it, we gotta do it, and then 1708 01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:26,960 Speaker 1: he would get busy, I'd get busy, and we wouldn't 1709 01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:30,280 Speaker 1: do it. So we said we'll do it, and then 1710 01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:33,000 Speaker 1: we got busy and didn't do it. But but uh, 1711 01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:36,200 Speaker 1: Susan Feldman, who was the artistic director of St. Anne's 1712 01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:40,880 Speaker 1: Warehouse in Brooklyn, which is a really great alternative art stage, 1713 01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:45,559 Speaker 1: a place where a lot of stuff percolates, she called 1714 01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:48,200 Speaker 1: and maybe it was Schnabel who gave her the idea, 1715 01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:52,280 Speaker 1: but she wanted us to do Berlin live at St. 1716 01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:57,400 Speaker 1: Anne's Lou called me. We conference Schnabel in Schnabel agreed 1717 01:35:57,439 --> 01:36:02,439 Speaker 1: to be uh the show artistic director or designer whatever 1718 01:36:02,479 --> 01:36:05,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't And then it became actually a film that 1719 01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:11,280 Speaker 1: produced by another great friend of mine, Stanley buck fall Um, 1720 01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:15,840 Speaker 1: who I almost got involved with when he was doing 1721 01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:20,400 Speaker 1: the Biosphere and Stanley has UH He's got that film 1722 01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:23,600 Speaker 1: called Spaceship Earth about the biosphair. He was, he was 1723 01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:26,799 Speaker 1: the UH. He owned the marketing rights to all that stuff. 1724 01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:30,200 Speaker 1: So it's a very small world. It's all the all 1725 01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:33,040 Speaker 1: these roads lead to the same place. So we all 1726 01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:35,960 Speaker 1: decided to do it, and I brought the first first call, Steve, 1727 01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:40,240 Speaker 1: you got to do the show, and then Um. And 1728 01:36:40,320 --> 01:36:42,040 Speaker 1: then we put together a band made up of some 1729 01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:45,120 Speaker 1: of Lou's touring band, his existing touring ban. We had 1730 01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:48,160 Speaker 1: Steve and then some of my people, and and UH 1731 01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:53,280 Speaker 1: and Anthony who is now now unknown, Anthony and Uh 1732 01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:56,479 Speaker 1: and Sharon Jones from Sharon Jones and the dap Kings. 1733 01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:59,040 Speaker 1: They were the backing vocals. We had a children's choir 1734 01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:01,880 Speaker 1: to do the whole leaghetti segment, and we had a 1735 01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,880 Speaker 1: small orchestra on stage, all dressed. We we wanted all 1736 01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,360 Speaker 1: the orchestra to be dressed like a like a cocktail band, 1737 01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:10,680 Speaker 1: like a bar mits for a wedding band. They were 1738 01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:14,200 Speaker 1: all in light blue jackets, dinner jackets, and they had 1739 01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:20,080 Speaker 1: little music stands that were the same color. And during 1740 01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:23,760 Speaker 1: rehearsals I had to conduct because lou was just he 1741 01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:27,120 Speaker 1: hadn't played this stuff in like decades and decades. He 1742 01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:28,920 Speaker 1: kind of knew it, but he was nervous about it, 1743 01:37:29,360 --> 01:37:31,920 Speaker 1: and he wasn't quite sure about entrances and exits and 1744 01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,600 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And the band also needed coaching. So 1745 01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:38,360 Speaker 1: I was I was conducting the rehearsals, but as we 1746 01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:41,280 Speaker 1: were getting closer to the you know, opening night, Lue 1747 01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:43,400 Speaker 1: just looked at me. He just goes, You're on stage. 1748 01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:47,400 Speaker 1: And I was saying, you know, that's not really supposed 1749 01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:49,639 Speaker 1: to be my job, and he goes, no, you're on stage. 1750 01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:53,280 Speaker 1: So I said, okay, I'll be on stage. There was 1751 01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:56,920 Speaker 1: one jacket left. It was an extra large, and I 1752 01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:58,360 Speaker 1: put it on. It looked like I was wearing my 1753 01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:02,720 Speaker 1: dad's dinner jacket, like my dad's powder blue tuxino. And 1754 01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:04,840 Speaker 1: of course now I'm gonna be having my back to 1755 01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:06,920 Speaker 1: the audience. So I said to schnovel. You got to 1756 01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:08,720 Speaker 1: do something on the back of this thing, Like, I 1757 01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:13,559 Speaker 1: can't just be this this sea of bouncing blue on stage. 1758 01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,920 Speaker 1: It'll be a terrible distraction. So he wrote the word 1759 01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:20,720 Speaker 1: Berlin down my back on the back of this thing 1760 01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:23,599 Speaker 1: in paint, and I still have that jacket. It's probably 1761 01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:28,519 Speaker 1: worth like, who knows, half million dollars. He's a very 1762 01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:30,720 Speaker 1: he's a very famous guy. There's in no way I'm 1763 01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:33,840 Speaker 1: selling that you right, Okay, let's go back. Meanwhile, you 1764 01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:36,680 Speaker 1: have what I believe to be your first hit with 1765 01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:41,200 Speaker 1: Schools Out. So tell us how that comes together. Well, 1766 01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:43,640 Speaker 1: eight Team was a hit, and under my wheels, they 1767 01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:45,640 Speaker 1: were just they just weren't number one, but they were 1768 01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:48,880 Speaker 1: all they were fam hits. No, they were am they 1769 01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,200 Speaker 1: were am hits. I don't want to I don't want 1770 01:38:51,240 --> 01:38:53,040 Speaker 1: to argue about their success. Well I can tell you 1771 01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:57,559 Speaker 1: with schools success. Okay, Schools I was a bigger success. 1772 01:38:57,640 --> 01:38:59,600 Speaker 1: I'll give you that. It was, and it was it 1773 01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:02,759 Speaker 1: was eighter really it was. You know, the album Billion 1774 01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:05,320 Speaker 1: Dollar Babies was really what it blew out worldwide. But yeah, 1775 01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:08,880 Speaker 1: Schools Out was amazing. Chef called me up and he said, um, 1776 01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:12,160 Speaker 1: the guys just they're they're working on this idea and 1777 01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:15,920 Speaker 1: it's called schools Out, and we gotta we gotta record this. 1778 01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:18,760 Speaker 1: This is gonna be a hit. I can tell you 1779 01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:20,360 Speaker 1: this is gonna be hit. We gotta get it done 1780 01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:22,720 Speaker 1: before school ends. And I said, I'm like okay. So 1781 01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:25,800 Speaker 1: I came out to l A and we had that riff, 1782 01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:29,519 Speaker 1: which was Glenn Buxton's riff. And schools out was what 1783 01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:32,880 Speaker 1: Leo Gorsey used to say to Satch and the and 1784 01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:37,679 Speaker 1: the on the Bowery Boys when he would say something stupid, 1785 01:39:37,760 --> 01:39:39,680 Speaker 1: Leo course, slap his hat off his head and go 1786 01:39:39,840 --> 01:39:43,120 Speaker 1: schools out, Satch, schools out, wake up, you know. So 1787 01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:47,280 Speaker 1: that's where the term schools out came from because Glenn Buxton, 1788 01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:49,519 Speaker 1: the lead guitar player, if anything, he was a Bowery 1789 01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:53,479 Speaker 1: boy in life, in his real life, and sadly he 1790 01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:58,080 Speaker 1: was a tragic Bowery boy who you know, drank himself 1791 01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:01,280 Speaker 1: to death. But at that time he was he was 1792 01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:03,599 Speaker 1: hot and he was doing you know, he came up 1793 01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:06,000 Speaker 1: with a great riff, like one of the all time 1794 01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:09,880 Speaker 1: most notable guitar riffs and um, and then we started 1795 01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:11,840 Speaker 1: working on you know, what can we do we want 1796 01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:13,280 Speaker 1: to make at school egg and we came up with 1797 01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:16,760 Speaker 1: a no more pencils, no more books, and that that 1798 01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:19,840 Speaker 1: was a really good section to sort of knit helped 1799 01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:22,360 Speaker 1: to knit the song together. And we worked on the lyrics. 1800 01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:27,080 Speaker 1: You know, we we got no class, we got no innocence. 1801 01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:29,880 Speaker 1: Uh no, but we got no class, we got no principles. 1802 01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:32,240 Speaker 1: I love that, and that's kind of a you know, 1803 01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:37,519 Speaker 1: that's an example of the kind of ironic um double 1804 01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:40,599 Speaker 1: on time that that is in almost all of Alice 1805 01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:43,960 Speaker 1: Cooper's lyric writing. Like I have to say, Bob Dylan 1806 01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,920 Speaker 1: said this, and I agree that Alice Cooper is is 1807 01:40:47,320 --> 01:40:52,880 Speaker 1: maybe the most underrated great lyricists in rock. The people 1808 01:40:52,920 --> 01:40:55,720 Speaker 1: don't realize how brilliant his lyrics are. But anyway, so 1809 01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:00,360 Speaker 1: the song came together. It came very quickly and um 1810 01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:02,519 Speaker 1: and then we had to to then we had to 1811 01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:04,920 Speaker 1: scramble and put together the whole album, which we did 1812 01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:09,920 Speaker 1: again very quickly in New York. Okay, Bob, uh, this 1813 01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:11,880 Speaker 1: is what I think we should do. Why don't we 1814 01:41:12,040 --> 01:41:14,800 Speaker 1: close it for now as the first part and then 1815 01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:18,000 Speaker 1: get back to kiss in Peter Gabriel and Pink Floyd, 1816 01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:20,680 Speaker 1: the Wall and Fish and so many of your more 1817 01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:24,519 Speaker 1: recent adventures sound good to you. Oh my god, Bob, 1818 01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, is this talk about slave labor? None 1819 01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:31,960 Speaker 1: of these victims of Bob Left. It's I want all 1820 01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:34,160 Speaker 1: the listeners to know get paid. To do any of 1821 01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:36,679 Speaker 1: this stuff. We have to give up like hours, sometimes 1822 01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:39,320 Speaker 1: days of our schedule. Some people come by mule train, 1823 01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:41,120 Speaker 1: they have to get all the way out to l A. 1824 01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:43,400 Speaker 1: They're not allowed to record unless they go into this 1825 01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:47,000 Speaker 1: one particular room at a particular time, and they have 1826 01:41:47,200 --> 01:41:49,680 Speaker 1: to give Bob two hours. And so when we add 1827 01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:51,479 Speaker 1: in travel time and all that stuff, it could have 1828 01:41:51,560 --> 01:41:55,759 Speaker 1: taken me a week to do this. Thankfully, we're actually 1829 01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:58,840 Speaker 1: confined to our quarters, so I was able to do 1830 01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:02,920 Speaker 1: this by remote technology. That's good. I'll do it okay, 1831 01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:07,200 Speaker 1: until next time when we do more with Bob ezritten. 1832 01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:09,080 Speaker 1: It's a Bob Left sense podcasting