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Speaker 1: Welcome to Breaking Points at Chrystal.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning Emily. Lovely to see you, and

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Speaker 2: lovely to see our guest right right.

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Speaker 3: We are joined now by Damian Thompson. He is an

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Speaker 3: editor at The Spectator. He hosts the Holy Smoke podcast

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Speaker 3: over there.

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Speaker 1: And Damian, we may see.

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Speaker 3: Our co host Ryan Graham pop up at some point

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Speaker 3: while we're chatting with you.

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Speaker 1: In fact timing here he is.

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Speaker 3: But Damian, I first want to say you are in

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Speaker 3: Rome right now. You have been covering the events of

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Speaker 3: the last twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: The first American pope has been chosen.

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Speaker 3: So first, Damien, thank you so much for being here,

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Speaker 3: and if you could just give us your initial reaction.

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Speaker 3: This was a surprising pickstep Ban and I think last

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Speaker 3: week described him as the quote dark horse, a potential

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Speaker 3: dark horse candidate, and that's actually what happened.

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Speaker 1: So you're the expert here, Damien, what do you make

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Speaker 1: of all this?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing we want to say is

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Speaker 4: that there's a mood of real optimism in Rome today.

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Speaker 4: People who had dismissed Cardinal Prevost's Francis Mark too some

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Speaker 4: sort of hopeless scheming liberal have been very pleasantly surprised,

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Speaker 4: first of all by the sight of him coming on

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Speaker 4: to the loader of Saint Peter's wearing the traditional robes

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Speaker 4: that France has rejected. Secondly by the choice of name Leo,

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Speaker 4: which is a very traditional one, by his style, and

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Speaker 4: on checking his record, they discover that he isn't perhaps

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Speaker 4: as liberal as they thought. That he seems to have

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Speaker 4: relatively orthodox views on the sensitive issues of sexuality that

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Speaker 4: have proved to be so divisive in the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 4: And there are also rumors that he's sympathetic to the

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Speaker 4: traditional Latin mats. So all of that is causing traditionalists

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Speaker 4: who initially reacted with dismay when they heard the name,

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Speaker 4: to shame hinge their verdicts fairly quickly, and you can

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Speaker 4: see it happening on Twitter. They like the way he's

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Speaker 4: presented himself, They like the thoughtful theological message. They particularly

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Speaker 4: liked his very christ centered homily in the Sistine Chapel

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Speaker 4: to the gardens this morning. So I think, above all

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Speaker 4: is just a sense of relief that the bizarre, quixotic

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Speaker 4: and often I think personally cruel pontificate of Francis has

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Speaker 4: come to an end. There will not be a Francis

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Speaker 4: the second. As I've written many times, Francis was involved

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Speaker 4: in so many horrible abuse cover ups that I think

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Speaker 4: his legacies profoundly tainted.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things, of course that people immediately

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Speaker 2: noticed is a prevost social media profile being the modern era,

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Speaker 2: and several of his recent tweets, actually, all of his

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Speaker 2: recent tweets seem to be quite critical of the Trump

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Speaker 2: and menministruation. This one in particular, he chimes in here

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Speaker 2: and says JD Vance is wrong. Jesus doesn't ask us

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Speaker 2: to rank our love for others. So that led to that,

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Speaker 2: among other things, led to Republicans like Laura Lumer calling

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Speaker 2: him a woke Marxist pope and really despairing about his

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Speaker 2: liberal inclinations. What do you make about his political commentary

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Speaker 2: with regard to Jade Vance and also the meeting with

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Speaker 2: President Trump and the Kelly in the White House.

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Speaker 4: Well, he's not a big fan of MAGA, that's for sure.

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Speaker 4: But there's a big difference between a woke Marxist and

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Speaker 4: somebody who doesn't approve of the second Trump administration. And

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Speaker 4: there are plenty of woke Marxists in the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 4: but there's no evidence that Pope Leo is one of them.

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Speaker 4: He is probably left leaning on the subjects of migration.

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Speaker 4: And you know, it's always it's always puzzled me that

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Speaker 4: the Catholic Church is so keen on advocating mass migration

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Speaker 4: without any thought about its longtime social consequences. On the

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Speaker 4: other hand, and perhaps you guys can help clear up

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Speaker 4: this mystery for me. What's his business about him not

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Speaker 4: being a registered Republican because I understand that the state

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Speaker 4: of Illinois doesn't doesn't have doesn't have registration in that way,

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Speaker 4: but having voted in a series of Republican primaries, could

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Speaker 4: somebody clear.

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Speaker 1: That up for me?

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Speaker 3: Yes, you know, I think that might be. Charlie Kirk

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Speaker 3: pulled his voting history. Charlie Kirk also is from the

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Speaker 3: Chicago area. Pulled his voting history, and it might be

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Speaker 3: the case that he's sort of from the never Trump

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Speaker 3: school of the conservative movement here in the United States.

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Speaker 3: He's a Chicago guy. It's very interesting, Damien. I guess

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Speaker 3: we'll see. And you know, it's always difficult to map

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Speaker 3: go ahead ahead.

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Speaker 4: We know that he's pro life, and it's very very

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Speaker 4: hard for an orthodox pro life Catholic and the new

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Speaker 4: pope certainly the dogs on the subical abortion to support

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Speaker 4: the Democrats, who you know, who are incredibly dogmatic in

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Speaker 4: their support for abortion, including late time abortions. So you know,

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Speaker 4: I would have been very surprised, for example, if the

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Speaker 4: new Popa supported Kamala Harris support either of them.

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Speaker 5: What do we know about his his time in Peru

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Speaker 5: relative to child sex abuse cover ups, That's an open question,

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Speaker 5: Like I don't know. I've just seen some some talk

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Speaker 5: about that.

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Speaker 4: This was why my job taper. When I heard Robert Francis,

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Speaker 4: I immediately knew who it was because I had just

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Speaker 4: been reading some very detailed coverage and the influential Catholic

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Speaker 4: investigative publication of The Pillar, which is very highly respected,

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Speaker 4: about allegations that Cardinal pre asked when Bishop of Chicayo

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Speaker 4: in Peru brushed aside complaints by women that they've been

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Speaker 4: abused by priests, and he was also accused of he

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Speaker 4: also accused of them watering down the severity of their accusations.

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Speaker 4: And therefore, you know, before the conclave, abuse survivors organizations

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Speaker 4: were worked drawing attention to what they claimed was his

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Speaker 4: bad record on this, and there's also a case dating

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Speaker 4: back to two thousand in which, as an Augustinian prior

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Speaker 4: or whatever he was in Chicago, he was accused of

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Speaker 4: allowing a pedophile priest to live and operate near a school.

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Speaker 4: And as I understand it, the new Pope has merely

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Speaker 4: invoked some sort of formal excuse for the Chicago for

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Speaker 4: the Chicago excuse me if I get the peruan complaints

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Speaker 4: by these women, and offered no explanation for what happened

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Speaker 4: in Chicago. So that is being followed up, as it

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Speaker 4: was followed up in the Daily Mail today, and.

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Speaker 6: It won't go away.

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Speaker 4: But I think I would make a distinction, and it's

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Speaker 4: a very these things have to be taken incredibly seriously,

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Speaker 4: but I wouldn't make a distinction between failure to deal

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Speaker 4: adequately with abuse allegations, which is terrible but of which

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Speaker 4: vast unders of bishops have been guilty, and the sort

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Speaker 4: of grossly negligent and culpable covering up of in some

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Speaker 4: cases convicted abuses that Pote Francis indulged, in which I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, I regard his Pontifica's a disgrace for that

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Speaker 4: reason alone. And the failure of the press to follow

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Speaker 4: that up. So it would be a little bit stranger

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Speaker 4: if the press concentrated so much attention on following up

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Speaker 4: this absolutely legitimate story and ignoring the fact that the

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Speaker 4: late pope has a record which you know, had he

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Speaker 4: been ahead of state anywhere in the wet western world,

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Speaker 4: would have forced him to resign years before he died.

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Speaker 2: Damien, what do you make of the politics of choosing

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Speaker 2: an American pope? What is the significance of that? And

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Speaker 2: you know, do you have any have you heard any

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Speaker 2: rumors about some of the internal politics about how he

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Speaker 2: was chosen From an ideological perspective as well.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm not so sure that the cardinals thought of

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Speaker 4: him as an American pope, because this is a guy

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Speaker 4: who has spent nearly his entire career, certainly his entire

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Speaker 4: episcopal career in Latin America, and before that he was

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Speaker 4: a missionary in Latin America. So I suspect that it

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Speaker 4: was the Latin American voting bloc, which might perhaps otherwise

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Speaker 4: have gone to Cardinal Tagle, the married him over the

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Speaker 4: two thirds majority, So I'm not so sure. I mean,

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Speaker 4: obviously people are aware that he was born and brought

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Speaker 4: up in America, but he is, you know, he has

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Speaker 4: a you know, mixed ancestry and had spent so much

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Speaker 4: of his adult life in Latin America that I think

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Speaker 4: it was a Latin American block really backed him. But

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Speaker 4: that's conjecture.

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Speaker 5: I saw something about the name Leo potentially signaling some

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Speaker 5: type of reference to Leo the thirteenth, labor and cyclical.

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Speaker 5: I'm deeply out of my depth when it comes to

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Speaker 5: this stuff, but I I understand there was.

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Speaker 4: Some much O the other I think was doctrinally orthodox

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Speaker 4: and in some ways the founder of modern Catholic social teaching.

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Speaker 4: The choice of the name Leo if it refers to

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Speaker 4: the thirteenth and many other great pope cooed Lear, including

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Speaker 4: some not so great poets cord Leer. But if it

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Speaker 4: is a reference to theater the thirteenth, then that might

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Speaker 4: indicate some sort of balance between doctrinal orthodoxy. And it

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Speaker 4: does seem to be doctrinal orthodox, more so than Francis's

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Speaker 4: bizarre and haphazard mixture of impenetrable spirituality, I think, and

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Speaker 4: a very pronounced social conscience, one that has, whether you

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Speaker 4: agree with him or not, already let him into conflict

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Speaker 4: with the Trump administration. But I think President Trump is

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Speaker 4: actually very keen to in as far as he possibly can,

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Speaker 4: have good relations with the Catholic Church. So I think

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Speaker 4: Trump will will take inside, but he won the won't

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Speaker 4: be the same sort of insults and sniping and you know,

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Speaker 4: goading that France is directed at Trump. If Pope Leo

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Speaker 4: wants to criticize the Trump administration, he will do so

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Speaker 4: in an honest, straightforward and civil manner.

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Speaker 2: Damian. One thing that people like myself, I'm not a Catholic,

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Speaker 2: but people who are on the left who appreciated Pope

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Speaker 2: Francis really respected was his commitment to and focusing on

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Speaker 2: an anti war message, and especially vis A VI the

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Speaker 2: atrocities committed in Gaza. I wonder if you have any

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Speaker 2: insight into Popolio's perspective on that conflict.

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Speaker 4: I want to ask you something. You're talking about respecting

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Speaker 4: a man who protected a serial rapist of nuns. How

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Speaker 4: does he earn your respect? I'm not having a get

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Speaker 4: you Crystal passy because I've foun of yours, but really,

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Speaker 4: a man who doesn't that, I mean, really doesn't that

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Speaker 4: overshadow everything? So many abuse victims had their stories ignored,

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Speaker 4: and that the abusers upheld and detected by this man. Francis,

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Speaker 4: how can any anyone Well.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I'll answer that I think that people who

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Speaker 5: are not intimately involved with are familiar with the Catholic

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Speaker 5: Church and don't know the details of it, assume that

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Speaker 5: pretty much everybody, and you know, the leadership there is

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Speaker 5: involved and to some degree with covering up the media.

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Speaker 4: That's a growth favure of the media.

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Speaker 6: Covered up.

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Speaker 5: I think maybe Greesel knows the most recent numbers, something

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Speaker 5: like thirteen thousand children have been killed by Israel, and

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Speaker 5: so anybody who speaks out against that is going to

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Speaker 5: get a hearing from people who are opposed to that.

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Speaker 4: It's a pope to abuse his abuse his personal authority

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Speaker 4: to protect a Jesuit ex jesuit accused of abusing and raping,

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Speaker 4: you know, twenty young women, including religious sisters in order

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Speaker 4: which is basically sex cult and for him to enjoy

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Speaker 4: the personal protection of the pope who kept his bile

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Speaker 4: artwork on the door of his on the wall of

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Speaker 4: his apartment till the day he does this.

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Speaker 1: Is this is repnic that we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: Exactly this Damien story, but there was a there was

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Speaker 4: a corrupt that compressed call who kept the story out

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Speaker 4: of the headlines.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I to explain why, I think, yeah, why why

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Speaker 5: people like us don't think that there's a whole lot

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Speaker 5: of difference in in the choice, like, Okay, whoever you're

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Speaker 5: going to get is going to be protected by this.

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Speaker 2: But Damien, I do want to get back this point.

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Speaker 4: There's a huge difference. Both are appalling, but there's a

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Speaker 4: difference between cover ups and the sort of very very

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Speaker 4: active protection of convicted abuses that France has indulged in, which.

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Speaker 2: Is Damien fair fair enough? I hear your point. I

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Speaker 2: hear your point, and I confess to being, you know,

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Speaker 2: ignorant on many of the specifics about who covered up

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Speaker 2: and what their level of culpability was. But I do

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Speaker 2: want to know if you have any perspective on what

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Speaker 2: how Pope Leo may orient himself vis a v war

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Speaker 2: and peace, and specifically with regard to Israel's atrocity in Gaza.

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Speaker 1: And also Ukraine. I think there's a question of that

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 4: I just don't know at this stage. By my assumption

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Speaker 4: is that he'll want to be a peacemaker my assumption

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Speaker 4: is that he would condemn some of Israel's actions as

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Speaker 4: well as of course condemning the appalling slaughter of Israelis

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Speaker 4: by Hamas. I wouldn't expect him to align very clearly

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Speaker 4: with either side. I would be surpris ris if he

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Speaker 4: was as indulgent of Russia as Possis seems to have

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Speaker 4: been on occasion, but that's speculation.

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Speaker 1: So dam.

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Speaker 3: My last question, just to actually kind of wrap all

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Speaker 3: of this up, is I've relied a lot on your

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Speaker 3: reporting over the course of the last papacy, and I

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Speaker 3: know that Leo uh is an ally of Francis, and

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Speaker 3: I'm genuinely curious if everything that you just explained that

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Speaker 3: has really been a failure of the media to cover

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Speaker 3: deeply and to focus on and to you know, put

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Speaker 3: front and center of the discourse about what was happening

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Speaker 3: in Vatican City. Does the new pope have any complicity

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Speaker 3: in the in Francis's regime of covering things up and

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Speaker 3: silencing and indulging particular guilty parties.

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Speaker 4: It's it's a really good question because in US, I mean,

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Speaker 4: he was a very senior member of the Curia in

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Speaker 4: a sense, every cardinal who failed to speak up about

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Speaker 4: what they knew was happening, which was that the pope

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Speaker 4: was covering up for convicted as well as credibly accused

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Speaker 4: vile sex abuses. Really has some explaining to do, and Poplio,

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Speaker 4: like the cardinals who elect him, not only has some

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Speaker 4: explaining to do, I would say, on that count, but

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Speaker 4: has to do something about it. And what everybody's been

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Speaker 4: saying to me in ren a few years is as

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Speaker 4: soon as Francis dies, it will all come out. I

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Speaker 4: hope it does. And when it does come out, the

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Speaker 4: level of complicity of Francis in covering up sex crimes

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Speaker 4: all over the world, if that really does come out,

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Speaker 4: then that will be a huge diplomatic problem for the

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Speaker 4: new pope, But at least it will be confronted, which

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Speaker 4: it desperately needs to be, because the fact that the

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Speaker 4: general public doesn't know the extent of the pravity is

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Speaker 4: shocking in itself.

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Speaker 1: Damien.

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Speaker 3: We are all non Catholics here and so we really

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Speaker 3: appreciate you coming on, especially someone so well sourced, literally

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Speaker 3: in Rome right now, to help us understand.

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Speaker 6: A great pleasure.

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Speaker 4: Let me just emphasize the mood here is upbeat.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Damian. We really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, all right, So interesting perspective from the

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Speaker 2: right there. I you know, I have listen, I have

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Speaker 2: no idea what the reality of how Pope Leo is

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Speaker 2: going to position himself. But you know, I will say

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Speaker 2: the reaction I've seen has been quite different. You know,

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Speaker 2: the left very encouraged by even the choice as Ryan

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Speaker 2: was getting at of Leo as the name. Certainly the

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Speaker 2: sniping at jd Vance, the upset from much of the right,

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Speaker 2: including the Laura Lumers of the world. So you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot to be seen about how he positions himself.

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Speaker 2: But also to your point, Emily, I mean he he

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Speaker 2: was someone who was close to Pope Francis and had

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Speaker 2: been put in this position of selecting many of the

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Speaker 2: cardinals and bishops, which also may have put him sort

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Speaker 2: of in the pole position to achieve this position, you know,

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Speaker 2: not knowing anything about the politics involved here, But what

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Speaker 2: do you make of this, Emily? Before we let you go,

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Speaker 2: because I know you've got things to do today too.

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Speaker 3: Well, flight to catch, so hopefully the real idea doesn't

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Speaker 3: mess that up. But yeah, my Catholic friends are I mean,

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Speaker 3: I would put it this way, I think One of

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Speaker 3: the things that Damian said is really interesting that the

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Speaker 3: initial reaction was pretty uncomfortable. As soon as you know,

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Speaker 3: people started scrolling through his twitter feed, Popolio's twitter feed.

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Speaker 1: And it's extremely political.

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Speaker 3: It was as though the only times he was tweeting

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Speaker 3: or retweeting was to make political statements.

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Speaker 1: Now that's not exactly accurate, but.

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Speaker 3: It accounts for probably fifty to sixty percent of the

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Speaker 3: tweets over the last several years on his speed, which

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Speaker 3: means that he has a well of frustration with MAGA

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Speaker 3: as an American and with the Trump administration, with jd Vance,

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Speaker 3: who is a Catholic convert. One of Francis's I think

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Speaker 3: points at tension with jd Vance and others is that

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Speaker 3: there's this wing of Catholic converts, particularly in the United States,

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Speaker 3: who do like the Latin Mass and that's what Damien

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Speaker 3: was alluding to, and they see that as kind of

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Speaker 3: a proxy for this anger at the modernization attempts in

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Speaker 3: the Vatican.

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Speaker 1: And so all this is to say, I.

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Speaker 2: Thinically about Latin Mass sort of codes right wing correct. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is like the jd Vance like version of Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like tradcasts and I don't know if Jad does

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Speaker 3: Latin Mass, but it's sort of seen as like a

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Speaker 3: proxy for that. But Leo comes from that sort of strain,

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Speaker 3: the Francis type of strain of the church. And so

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Speaker 3: I think what Damian pointed out was interesting that over

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Speaker 3: the last twenty four hours some of the people who

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Speaker 3: were hoping for a more conservative choice have come to

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Speaker 3: reconsider whether Leo might have things that they really like,

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Speaker 3: and they're now failing quote unquote upbeat.

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Speaker 1: We'll see.

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Speaker 3: But my last big thought on this is just I

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Speaker 3: think think my Catholic friends might not like me saying this,

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Speaker 3: but there's a desperation for a breath of fresh air

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Speaker 3: because Francis is mismanaged things. Whether you're liberal or conservative,

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Speaker 3: the guy mismanaged things, He was complicit in cover ups.

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Speaker 3: It is such an intense character that I think there's

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Speaker 3: a some of my conservative friends who get really frustrated

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Speaker 3: with mapping contemporary American politics onto the Vatican left right.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work perfectly, that's absolutely true.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, this guy with posting seemingly only

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Speaker 3: to make a point against the American right over and

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Speaker 3: over again. So I get that it's complicated, but I

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Speaker 3: think he's probably closer to Francis than some of my

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Speaker 3: conservative Catholic friends probably will uh, they'll probably find this

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Speaker 3: out in ways that are unpleasant to come.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's some there's some coping, coping going on potentially.

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Speaker 5: Here if you're a psile cope. We got everybody got

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Speaker 5: Francis wrong. Like the first day or two after when

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Speaker 5: Francis was named, everybody thought he was kind of a concervative.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, I don't remember that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: There was like a twenty four hour period where the

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Speaker 5: right was celebrating and the left was freaking out, and

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Speaker 5: then he went around like you know, kissing people's feet

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Speaker 5: and people are like, oh wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeahs was like really really really anti abortion.

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Speaker 2: I mean any isn't any pope gonna be anti abortion?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: For him, it was like he had you know that

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Speaker 3: everyone has sort of like a suite of issues under

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Speaker 3: their priorities, and that was definitely one of his. So

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Speaker 3: that's what the rights were reacted to immediately when it

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Speaker 3: came to got Yah.

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Speaker 6: So they got that wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah all right, So I guess we'll see anyway, Emily,

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Speaker 2: I'll let you go for the day. Great to see us.

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Speaker 2: Always have a great weekend. We'll see you next week.

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Speaker 1: Thanks guys.

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Speaker 2: See ye, Ran, how are you this morning?

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Speaker 6: Wonderful? How about yourself?

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Speaker 1: Good?

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Speaker 2: Thank you for standing up for my honor with Damien

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Speaker 2: Like well, you know, yes, this is obviously the sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse scandal is an incredibly important one, but also you

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Speaker 2: know there there are issues that we could discuss here

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Speaker 2: as well. So in any case, speaking of other issues discussed,

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Speaker 2: there's a ton that I want to get to in

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Speaker 2: the show. And also, by the way, guys, Ryan's going

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Speaker 2: to have to jump about ten o'clock. We have a

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Speaker 2: special guest, very special guest who has a long commute

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Speaker 2: from two rooms away in order to join us this

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Speaker 2: morning for the premium portion of the show. And we've

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Speaker 2: got lots of stuff to get into with regard to trade,

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Speaker 2: and I definitely want to get Ryan's take before he

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Speaker 2: goes on the Abundance Caucus newly formed, and if we

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Speaker 2: have time, get a little bit of your your thoughts

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Speaker 2: on casey means she may be right up your alley, Ryan,

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Speaker 2: I don't know you have.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, shrooms and crystals?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, talking to trees, it might be your gal?

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Speaker 6: Is she talking to trees?

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Speaker 5: Is just listening to them, because if you're listening to

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Speaker 5: trees and hearing from them, I'm with that. If you're

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Speaker 5: talking to them, that's too.

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Speaker 2: Far, that's too fa Okay, all right, we'll investigate. We'll

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Speaker 2: investigate first. I want to let me see what I

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Speaker 2: got here first. I want to get into this strade stuff.

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Speaker 2: And in particular, there's some news this morning. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you've seen this yet, I'm sure you probably have,

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Speaker 2: but Trump posted that he thinks that an eighty percent

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Speaker 2: tariff on China seems right up to Scott b being

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Speaker 2: Scott Bessett. So basically china strategy of do nothing and

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Speaker 2: win seems to be working out. Ryan.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and markets jumped on that on the UK trade

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Speaker 5: deal yesterday because it was it was kind of a

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Speaker 5: nothing burger of a deal.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Basically, apparently the UK makes cars and they're going to

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Speaker 5: be allowed to sell like one hundred thousand cars into

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Speaker 5: the US that are reduced tariff rate, and in exchange,

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Speaker 5: they will reduce their digital tax that they were hitting

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Speaker 5: our big tech companies with, and there's some tariff reciprocity.

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Speaker 5: Basically a free trade steal zone that we're creating with

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Speaker 5: the UK, and we're still going to then hit other

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Speaker 5: steal with the twenty five percent tariff, and because it

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Speaker 5: wasn't really much to it, and Trump sold it as

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Speaker 5: this like historic, you know deal with our you know,

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Speaker 5: our best friends across the pond. That sent a signal

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Speaker 5: to the markets that he's looking for face saving ways

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Speaker 5: out of this trade war. And so the hope then

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Speaker 5: from the markets is Okay, he understands he's lost, and

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Speaker 5: he's gonna wind this down. And so I think that's

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Speaker 5: why the markets popped. I think the markets might be

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Speaker 5: a little wrong, like which probably you know, dial up

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Speaker 5: Jeff Stein again see what he thinks. But I think

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Speaker 5: he might be more committed to continuing this until he

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Speaker 5: gets a real punch in the face that he doesn't

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Speaker 5: recover from him quickly. But so that that's that's where

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Speaker 5: we are. And then you know, the China knocking TIFFs

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Speaker 5: on China down to eighty percent is also silly, because

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Speaker 5: you know, anything above a pretty trivial percentage is a

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Speaker 5: is a is a meaningful tariff. So the difference between

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Speaker 5: eighty and one hundred and forty five isn't isn't that significant?

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Speaker 5: Because in either case, most importers. Most businesses that rely

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Speaker 5: on Chinese imports are out of business, So whether you're

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Speaker 5: out of business at eighty percent or out of business

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Speaker 5: at one hundred and forty five percent doesn't really matter

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Speaker 5: to the company that goes bankrupt me in that direction.

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Speaker 2: Let me show you this, which is kind of shocking.

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Speaker 2: So China apparently reported bumper April exports ahead of crucial

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Speaker 2: trade talks with the US. China's experts actual exports actually

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Speaker 2: grew sharply in April, despite Trump's Liberation Day terrafts on

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Speaker 2: shipments to the US, strengthening Beijing's hand ahead of crucial

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Speaker 2: trade negotiations due to start this weekend. Strong performance came

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Speaker 2: as Chinese companies diverted trade flows to South East Asia,

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Speaker 2: Europe and other destinations following the imposition of prohibitively high

440
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: tit for tat tariffs between the world's two largest economies.

441
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: Exports rows eight point one percent in dollar terms compared

442
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 2: with a year earlier, China's and said on Friday, beating

443
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: analyst forecast in a poll by Reuters of one point

444
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: nine percent growth, but slowing from twelve percent growth in March,

445
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: when figures were buoyed by export is seeking to get

446
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: ahead of expected tariffs by front loading shipments to the US.

447
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: So in spite of a dramatic reduction in trade with US,

448
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: in fact, China's exports grew post Liberation Day and grew

449
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: sharply year over year because we are not the entire world.

450
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 2: And it turns out that they had other options available

451
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: to them, especially as we did everything we could to

452
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: you piss off all of the countries around the entire world,

453
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: contrary to the proposal. I think Scott Bessen and laid

454
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: down of Hey, we're going to have this encirclement strategy

455
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,719
Speaker 2: and we're going to try to isolate China, and then

456
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: they go about it by basically pissing off everyone that

457
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: they possibly.

458
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 5: Can, right, And I think one thing that is underestimated

459
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 5: is the role of kind of inertia in global affairs.

460
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 5: Like China has been selling stuff to us because that's

461
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 5: because that's what they do. Like the relationships are set up,

462
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 5: the contracts are in place, it's it's smooth, it works,

463
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 5: We've got to figure it out. And that doesn't mean

464
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 5: that they didn't have other options where they could sell stuff.

465
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 5: And we kind of took that to mean that we

466
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 5: were the only buyer in the world, you know, for

467
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 5: these products. And what China is showing here is that

468
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 5: actually if they do the if they do, if they're

469
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 5: forced to do the work to find other buyers, Southeast

470
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 5: Asia and Europe, you know, do have some consumers who

471
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 5: are you know, willing to buy the twenty eight dollars.

472
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: That that we're not allowed to do anywhere, that we're

473
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: not going to have anymore. This is kind of contrary

474
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: to what you were saying about the UK trade deal.

475
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: So let me get your reaction to this. Charles Gasparino says,

476
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: now you know why Powell didn't cut rates after the

477
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: UK deal. If the ten percent tariff is in the

478
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: UK deal, not sure how we escape some economic repercussions

479
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 2: i e. Inflation in the short term at the very least,

480
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: since UK is a friend where we sell more stuff

481
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 2: to than we import i e. Ten percent on the

482
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 2: UK means much higher on countries we have deficits with.

483
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: That's the tariff investment calculation you're hearing on Wall Street

484
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: right now. So basically, like you said, the UK deal,

485
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, we should be clear it's

486
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: not even actually a deal yet. It's like you know,

487
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: concepts of a play on kind of a deal, but

488
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 2: it leaves in place most of the ten percent tariff,

489
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: which is what it was already at.

490
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: Now.

491
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: There were other provisions involved, as you laid out some

492
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: of them previously, but basically what Gasparino is saying is like, Okay,

493
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: well ten percent is the baseline, that's the best deal

494
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to get. Then that indicates

495
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: some significant inflationary pressures on countries around the world.

496
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 5: Again, so it's it's like irrationality layered on top of irrationality,

497
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 5: and it's this weird game theory where everybody is trying

498
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 5: to figure out what irrational thing and and unpredictable thing

499
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 5: is going to happen and trying to predict that. So

500
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 5: in this case, what I think is going on is

501
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 5: that the mark and the markets only ended up up

502
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 5: like eighty or something. They were up significantly throughout the

503
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 5: day and then came down. I think what they took

504
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 5: from it is that, Okay, he's not really going to

505
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 5: keep that ten percent on them, like he's saying that

506
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 5: for now, but he reached a deal, and the point

507
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 5: of the deal is that the tariffs are going to

508
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 5: come down, and so you know, once once they start

509
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 5: to bite a little bit and have real world consequences,

510
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 5: because we've gotten the deal, he's going to use the

511
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 5: deal to quietly just get rid of those. Now, they

512
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 5: could be totally wrong about that, and this is why

513
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 5: I'm saying it's irrationality layered over irrationality. But I think

514
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 5: that's what they're I think that's the assumption there because

515
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 5: Gasprino's right that, like, if that ten percent is solid,

516
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 5: then yeah, that signals everyone's going to get at least

517
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 5: ten and other people are going to get higher. But

518
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 5: what about Trump's approach to any of this suggests that

519
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 5: any of this is.

520
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: Solid, that anything is solid.

521
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's why I think that's what I think

522
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 5: is going on it that they assume that this is

523
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 5: all soft.

524
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: I want to get your reaction to Jadie Vance got

525
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: asked about the number of dolls that anyone will be

526
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: permitted to have here. So let me go ahead and

527
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: pull this up because his answer was interesting, let me

528
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: go ahead and get your reaction to those.

529
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 7: Right, So the President said, you know, maybe American kids

530
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 7: should have three dollars instead of thirty or whatever the

531
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 7: number was.

532
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Do you agree.

533
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 7: Do you tell the people of this country that you

534
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 7: need to make some sacrifices in order to reorganize this

535
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 7: bad trade relationship?

536
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 8: Well, I think the President's point here is that, yeah,

537
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 8: we do need to become more self reliant, and that's

538
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 8: not going to happen overnight, and it's not.

539
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 6: Always going to be easy. Mark.

540
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 8: But what I'd ask people is not whether they want

541
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 8: two dollars or five dollars or twenty dollars for their kids.

542
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 8: I'd ask American moms and dads, would you like to

543
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 8: be able to go into a pharmacy and know that

544
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 8: the drugs your.

545
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 6: Kids need are actually available to you?

546
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 8: As an American parent, would you like to God forbid,

547
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 8: if your country goes to a war and your son

548
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 8: or daughter is son off to fight, would you like

549
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 8: to know that the weapons that they have are good

550
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 8: American made stuff, not made by a foreign adversary. What

551
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 8: President Trump is talking about is bringing self reliance back

552
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 8: to the United States economy.

553
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: We have a what do you think of that explanation here?

554
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 5: You know, I I I wish that it didn't feel

555
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 5: like this stuff was reverse engineered, you know what and

556
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 5: by what? And what I mean by that is, Trump

557
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 5: seems to now understand that, oh, the shelves are going

558
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 5: to be empty. Now I have to come up with

559
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 5: a rationale for why I support, why the shelves being

560
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 5: empty is actually a good thing. Right when when you

561
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 5: if you actually start from the principle that we consume

562
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 5: too much junk, it's it's it's spiritually degrading, it's it's

563
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 5: bad for the environment, it doesn't make us feel better

564
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 5: about ourselves. Uh, it's it's empty.

565
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 6: Uh.

566
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 5: Then and then you flow from there and and try

567
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 5: to bring the whole country together around that idea that's

568
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 5: still to me, that's delightful and a replace the spiritual

569
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 5: regeneration of the of an entire public wonderful, agreed.

570
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: And And but there has to be not just you're

571
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: not going to have dolls, but there has to be

572
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: a replacement for that consumerist ideology that we've been sold

573
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: for decades and decades.

574
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 5: Right, which which we don't have. Like consumerism is a

575
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 5: thing that stitches us together. Yeah, and you you pull

576
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 5: that apart without replacing it with anything, you know, God

577
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 5: save us, you know, so it could so, But if

578
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 5: you know the process of getting to that, the process

579
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 5: of working it through. If we did it collectively, you know,

580
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 5: could result in you know, less you know, lower levels

581
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 5: of unhappiness, less plastic in our bloodstream. Like all of

582
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 5: these things would be would be good. Like I mean,

583
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 5: you you've got young kids, like it should be a

584
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 5: crime like that every single uh kid's birthday party they

585
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 5: have to give you a giant bag of plastic when

586
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 5: you walk out that the kids play play with for

587
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 5: thirty seconds in the car on the way home and

588
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 5: then don't then then don't touch again. And it's it's,

589
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 5: it's it's it's genuinely awful, Like that's horrible.

590
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: Stuff to me that the deeper worry and I suspect

591
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: you share this is actually about social media and specifically

592
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: with regard to AI. And you know, this administration is

593
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: running a million miles an hour to wild West AI.

594
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: We're just going to take off all the breaks we've

595
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: got to win the AI race. We're just going to

596
00:33:53,960 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: unleash this potentially extraordinarily destructive force on society with it's

597
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: not even contemplating what the impacts will be without planning

598
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: for them, without creating any sort of a safety net.

599
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 2: If there's mass job replacement, I'm sure you read the uh,

600
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 2: what was it? A New York magazine piece about everybody

601
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: cheating on their college tests, and like, you know that

602
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: particular like narrow problem you could figure out. Okay, well

603
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: now you just have to write us days in class

604
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 2: instead of you can't.

605
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 5: You know, there's we're taking out your phone father trying

606
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 5: to figure that out though.

607
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, but to me it speaks correct. But also to

608
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: me it speaks to you know, the same way that

609
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: I use this example with Emily Estra that GPS made

610
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: us like unable to navigate, like that part of our

611
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: brain just atrophied completely.

612
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 6: Yep.

613
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: AI is going to do that for basically everything. Yeah,

614
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: and if we were a functioning society, we would be

615
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: dealing with that, right, We would be figuring about it,

616
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: we would be planning for it, we would be braining

617
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: it in. And so you know, that's just an example

618
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: of how contrary to the idea that there's some plan

619
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: here for the Trump administration to remake the social contract

620
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: in a way that is going to be healthier and

621
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: more fulfilling. And you know, spiritually regenitaive regenerative, I think

622
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: is the word that you use. It's the exact opposite

623
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: we're running a million miles in the other direction and

624
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: not even looking to consider where we might be headed, and.

625
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 6: Doubling our energy usage in order to do it.

626
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, No. Naomi Klein talks about how this is

627
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: like a vampiric technology because it eats up the resources

628
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: that you actually need for not just humanity, but for creation.

629
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 6: Your part.

630
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: That's right in order to create this mirror world. And

631
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: it's it's endlessly disturbing to me, and you know, I

632
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: don't know what to do about it other than to

633
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 2: complain and worry. The last economic piece that I wanted

634
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: to I actually really want you to make I want

635
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: to make sure I'm thinking about this the right way,

636
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: because the media has been saying, oh, Trump wants to

637
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 2: lift taxes on the rich. He's he called Mike Johnson,

638
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: he told him he wants to hike the top tax rate.

639
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: But as I was reading the details here, it's not

640
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: exactly as it's being portrayed. So the change here would

641
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: roll back one of the tax cuts that Trump signed

642
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: into law in twenty seventeen, as the Tax Cuts and

643
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: Jobs AC That measure reduced the rate on income earned

644
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 2: in the top bracket to thirty seven percent from thirty

645
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: nine point six percent this year. The top income bracket

646
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 2: starts at roughly six hundred thousand dollars for an individual

647
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: of aster. Trump is effectively seeking to restore the previous

648
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: top rate, but at a much higher income level. So

649
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: just so people know, if nothing happens the Tax Cut

650
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: and Jobs Act, those tax breaks expire and taxes go

651
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: up on everybody, but especially because they got the biggest

652
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: cuts on the rich. So what we're talking about here,

653
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: what Trump is proposing, is still giving a tax break

654
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: to the rich, but not as much, quite as much

655
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: of one as he had previously given. Am I understanding

656
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: this correctly?

657
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 6: That's right, except for some.

658
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 5: You could imagine a rich person who makes twenty million

659
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 5: dollars a year, which is you know that there are

660
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 5: I think there's in the hundreds or maybe the thousands

661
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 5: at the most of people in the United States who

662
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 5: make that amount of money. People can look it up.

663
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 5: It's that that number is available. Those people would pay

664
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 5: a little bit more because everything above a certain threshold,

665
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 5: they're you know, they're jumping from whatever it was, you know,

666
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 5: thirty six something to like thirty nine, And so that

667
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 5: those couple points would then hit everything above that level.

668
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 5: But that's a tiny number of people. So if you're

669
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 5: a typical.

670
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 2: But if you don't, if you don't renew the Task

671
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 2: Cuts and Jobs Act, which is the whole four trillion

672
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: dollars that they're trying to do, Yeah, then taxes are

673
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 2: going to go up on the far more.

674
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 5: It's a huge it's a huge cut relative to not

675
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 5: doing anything.

676
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

677
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's still a cut.

678
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 6: Even on the right, as much of.

679
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 2: A cut as what he had originally planned.

680
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 5: Yes, still giving a big cut to the very rich,

681
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 5: but a little bit less than he gave to them.

682
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, all right, all right, let me get your

683
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: take on this Abundance Caucus, because you've been, you've been,

684
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: you had some interesting insights on this. So you have

685
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: some Democrats now who are starting an abundance Caucus, in

686
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: abundance inspired caucus in particular, what is this guy's name,

687
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 2: Josh Harder from California, says House Democrats are getting asra

688
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,479
Speaker 2: cline pilled. Bipartisan group of lawmakers led by Josh Harder

689
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: as launching a new roughly thirty member block claiming inspiration

690
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: from abundance movement championed by the liberal commentator client. I

691
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: guess my question is like is this really necessary because

692
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: I feel like we have ideological groups that are already

693
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: pretty abundance pilled.

694
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, got to seize the Abundance Caucus, and

695
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 5: you know, maybe they hope that they'll be able to

696
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 5: get Ezra to come speak to their caucus, like he's

697
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 5: you know, he spoke to the Senate retreat recently. This guy, uh,

698
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 5: I forget who was it, Serota?

699
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 6: Maybe that flagged it.

700
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 5: The funniest thing that like one of Harder's you know,

701
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 5: chief accomplishments was blocking this water project.

702
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 2: I think it was Stolar.

703
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 6: Was that Solar?

704
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, just which is just hilarious because that's like

705
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 5: the whole like to the extent that abundance.

706
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 6: You know, has a villain.

707
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 5: It's like, you know, environmentalists who are standing in the

708
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 5: way of these types of infrastructure projects, and here he

709
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 5: was blocking one of these water projects on environmental grounds.

710
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: I have it here, Congressman behind the Abundance Caucus, Josh

711
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: Harder has as a signature accomplishment stopping a water project

712
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: from getting a permit.

713
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 5: There you go, So, yeah, the the we'll see who

714
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 5: winds up And this is this is what I said yesterday, like,

715
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 5: we'll see who winds up joining this caucus. But here

716
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 5: here's a prediction, and you can map this prediction then

717
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 5: against the analysis of whether this abundance is you know,

718
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 5: seriously aimed at, you know, lifting everybody up, or is

719
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 5: actually just kind of rebranded neoliberalism. My suspicion is that

720
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 5: the Abundance Caucus will eventually be populated almost exclusively by

721
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 5: people who are also in what's known as the New

722
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 5: Democrat Coalition New Democrat Governference. New Democrats were created by

723
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 5: the DLC, the Democratic Leadership Council, which itself was created

724
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 5: in the nineteen eighties as a as the vehicle for

725
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 5: the faction that said, we need deregulation, we need lower taxes,

726
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 5: we need we need to end big government. We need

727
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 5: to get Democrats away from civil rights, environmentalism, feminism, big unions,

728
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 5: big government, you know, tax and spend liberalism. We need

729
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 5: to be the kind of we need to basically do

730
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 5: Reaganomics light and they were.

731
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 6: That was the DLC. There was a New Democrats.

732
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 5: So I think all I think everybody who joins this

733
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 5: Abundance Caucus is probably going to be New Democrats.

734
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 6: And if I'm wrong about that.

735
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 5: Then uh, then maybe I'm wrong about my whole analysis

736
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 5: of abundance. But you know, let's check back in in

737
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks and see who harder has been

738
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,959
Speaker 5: able to recruit into this caucus. Now, you're definitely gonna

739
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 5: have some There are some progressive people in the Progressive

740
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 5: Caucus who are also in the New Democrats. And there

741
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 5: are which is a lot of embarrass caucus. Are are really,

742
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 5: you know, underneath that kind of neoliberal you know, you know,

743
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 5: Clinton type Democrats who have who have you know, progressive

744
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 5: social values And I think you'll you'll find those kinds

745
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 5: of people too, will be really intrigued by the the

746
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 5: the abundance framing because it's nice. Who's against abundance?

747
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel like yeah. But so Bill

748
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: Clinton is you know, his his framing is the DLC

749
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: and it's neoliberals. It's really the Democratic Party sort of

750
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: embracing the Ronald Reagan era framing, and Jimmy Carter, to

751
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: be fair, initially, is the one who starts to move

752
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: Democrats away from the New Deal and into the neoliberal era.

753
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton really cements that. I sort of feel like

754
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: Barack Obama is almost like another rebranding. That's like a

755
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: different rebranding of neoliberalism and now and that was coming

756
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: out of the wilderness of George W.

757
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: Bush.

758
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: And you know, how could we have lost to this guy?

759
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay, here we go another rebranding neoliberalism.

760
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: And then it seems like Abundance is the attempt again

761
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: to rebrand neoliberalism as something new and fresh and different

762
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: out of the wake of the you know, devastating loss

763
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 2: for Democrats to Donald Trump.

764
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 5: Right, and the Affordable Care Act, Obama's signature achievement, you know,

765
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 5: was all about using the market and doing a you know,

766
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 5: doing healthcare reform without you know, not not even without

767
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 5: adding to the deficit, but reducing the deficit. And yes,

768
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 5: very very Clintonian.

769
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: Well it brought a bunch of Clinton people into his administration.

770
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: So I mean, the you know, the carryover from the

771
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: Clinton administration was quite quite real and not just not

772
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: just theoretical. Let me get your take also, Ryan, since

773
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: we didn't have you yesterday before, you have to jump

774
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: on Casey means. So there's all sorts of there's all

775
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: sorts of things going on here. I don't even know

776
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: where to start, But let me pull up a friend

777
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: of show, Laura Lumer, who has been was first very

778
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: upset about the first Trump search and general pick and

779
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: was probably influential and getting her spiked. Then Trump picks

780
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 2: Casey Means, the sister of Callie Means and Emily and

781
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: I talked about her a good bit yesterday. She's really

782
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 2: a like MAHA influencer star. She's been on with Tucker,

783
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: She's been on with Joe Rogan. She runs some health

784
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: company herself, like Glucose monitoring company. She wrote a book

785
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 2: along with her brother, Callie Means, and so when she

786
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: got picked, I thought that Lumer and certainly the MAHA

787
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: people like Nicole Shanahan would be delighted, But I was wrong.

788
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 2: Some people were delighted. Nicole Shanahan, notably, was really really upset,

789
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: and Laura Lumer continued to you know, raise hell about

790
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 2: this pick as well, and despair truly over the UH

791
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: over the vetting team, not Trump. Of course, it's not

792
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: Trump's fault, but over the vetting team that is deserving Trump.

793
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: So in any case, Lord tweeted this, which I thought

794
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: was interesting. She said, I'm glad I initiated the Maha breakup.

795
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: Many of these grifters needed to be exposed for who

796
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: they are. And also I was amused by Richard Hanania

797
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: chiming and being like, here's another one, go after him

798
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: as well. In any case, give me your give me

799
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: your thoughts on Casey Means, on the Maha and Maga

800
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: tensions that are emerging, and Laura Lumer's role in all

801
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: of this stuff.

802
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, look, I love all the folks that

803
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 5: are into the crystals and the reiki and the the moon.

804
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: And you have some background in this.

805
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 5: Yes, in the nineties, I used to I used to

806
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 5: go to reiki sessions. Then I became like a reiki practitioner.

807
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 6: Stuff.

808
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 2: Of course you did the shock.

809
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 6: This is important stuff.

810
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 5: I don't I I don't think you want the Surgeon

811
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 5: general though.

812
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 6: From that world.

813
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 5: Like, I think it's fine if you know it's a

814
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 5: compliment to our system of Western medicine, because there are

815
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 5: there are a lot of things that Western medicine doesn't

816
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 5: understand about the body clearly, and there's a lot left

817
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 5: to be learned about it. But I think it's fine

818
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 5: that that it lives off in on your YouTube land

819
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 5: and in the basements and in churches and wherever where

820
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,479
Speaker 5: you know you want to get you want to do reiki, great,

821
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 5: it's great, go do it.

822
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 6: It's wonderful.

823
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 5: But to but to make that person the surgeon general,

824
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 5: it's like, well, no, the Western medicine is also responsible

825
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 5: for enormous number of advances.

826
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: Like when you're when your wife's got cancer, to go

827
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: to the specialist, to the occupuncture, the doctor.

828
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 5: And you might go to the acupuncturist as well to right,

829
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 5: was some of the side effects true? But no, it's

830
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 5: it becomes dangerous when you you're throwing the Western medicine

831
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 5: out with the bathwater like this. Because look, Steve Jobs,

832
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 5: for instance, like you know, you know, thought he could

833
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 5: cure his own cancer with his with his spirit and smoothies,

834
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 5: and that's true and whatever, and what you know, the

835
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 5: way that he just try to approach it with his

836
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 5: spirit or his will or whatever. And he, as far

837
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 5: as I understand, like that was a cancer that he

838
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,479
Speaker 5: should have beaten, you know, with treatment, but he didn't

839
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 5: and then he died.

840
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: And there's a similar story with Kyle's dad actually, who

841
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: was going to a chiropractor who was telling him, oh,

842
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 2: I got you, you know, and he didn't he didn't

843
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: go to a regular doctor, so he didn't get a

844
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: cancer diagnosis until it was far too late, because the

845
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: chiropractor promised him that he would be able to heal

846
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: whatever ailed him.

847
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 5: Right, And yes, then that's that's the real danger of that.

848
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 5: Like it as a as a compliment to your life

849
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 5: and to your you know, your spiritual pursuits great to

850
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 5: supplant to literally supplant medicine, Western medicine and have the

851
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 5: person as a certain general it's like.

852
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: Uh, well here's here's the other thing, Ryan, is there's

853
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: another piece of this I want to talk to you about,

854
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 2: which is like the realignment from those types from the left.

855
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: I mean, this used to be very much the you know,

856
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: the Crystal people were very much within the firmitment of

857
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party. And that realignment is interesting to be

858
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 2: which is how you know, Mariann and R. F. K.

859
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 2: Junior knew each other, ran the same circles and whatever.

860
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: Our K Junior of course is like the emblem of

861
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: that realignment, you know, the Woo woo realignment into the

862
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: Republican Party. But the thing that really drives me crazy

863
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: about our K Junior's ideology Casey means Callie means from

864
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: what I can tell is like number one, you know,

865
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: the position on the left is that ourns you have

866
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 2: access to medicine, not that there shouldn't be medical or

867
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: that we shouldn't trust, but it's that people should have

868
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 2: access to the advances of Western medicine. So that's number one.

869
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 2: Number two, they'll oftentimes talk accurately about the corruption of

870
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: the food industry, about the corruption of the medical industry,

871
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: of big pharma, et cetera, but then there's no effort

872
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 2: to actually root out the corruption. Instead, there's just a

873
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 2: redirection into alternative health profiteering, of which Casey and Gala

874
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: means both participate. You know, that's their livelihood, and that

875
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 2: stuff is wildly untested. I mean, there are much say

876
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: what you will about the FDA, the standards for actually

877
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: getting a drug approved much higher than there are no

878
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: sane standards for these you know, supplements and you know

879
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: things that you sell on the internet, and all these

880
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: influencers you go on say I take this, I take that.

881
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: They're getting paid and then they're selling it to you,

882
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 2: and there's no very little standards or testing with regard

883
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: to that. So that's the other piece of it and

884
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: the fact that there's no focus on Okay, you're right

885
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 2: that the profit motive at the center of healthcare is

886
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: is actually deadly because that creates mass incentives for guess

887
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 2: what's most profitable for people to be chronically sick, so

888
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: that you can continue to have to treat them and

889
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: treat them and treatment them over many years. There's no

890
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: effort to root that out through something like Medicare for

891
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: All system. Instead, it's just redirecting people into things that

892
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: are worse, less tested and at least as corrupt and.

893
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 5: Right, the profiteering is outrageous that the entire reason we

894
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 5: have the FDA is in response to and I wrote

895
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 5: about this in my first book. What were they used

896
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 5: to be called patent medicines? Right, and like literally snake

897
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 5: oil snake like that's where we get the phrase snake oil.

898
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 5: Like people would come by and say, look, this oil

899
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 5: from a snake, you know, rub it here, and this

900
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 5: is going to be effect and oftentimes like it wouldn't

901
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 5: even be snake oil. It would be like not that

902
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 5: the snake oil would work, but they weren't even selling

903
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 5: you snake oil, which good because like you probably you know,

904
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 5: exterminate all the snakes if you had to do that.

905
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 6: Uh.

906
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 5: And so the FDA was brought in and and it

907
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 5: was the it was actually the first kind of assertion

908
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 5: of of federal government, you know, regulatory power, which is

909
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 5: why there's this alliance with corporate power linking up with

910
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 5: the MAHA people because they they they understand both historically

911
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 5: and intuitively that that the f d A is sort

912
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 5: of like the tip of the spear for this regulation

913
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 5: of of corporate profiting. And if they can they can

914
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 5: cut that, they can they can roll back, you know,

915
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 5: so they can roll back so much else. Uh and

916
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 5: so uh that's why that's how you wind up with

917
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 5: like a chemical chemical industry lobbyist being put into place

918
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 5: by the Trump administration to you know, over over oversee

919
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 5: you know what the MAHA people thought was going to

920
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 5: be an effort to like root out toxic chemicals.

921
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: Right, And then how do you think, like, what do

922
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: you think of what are your reflections on the MAHA

923
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: movement into magaworld, some the tensions there and how that

924
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: comes about. I mean, I think the most obvious thing

925
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 2: is just to say that many of them were skeptics

926
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: of the COVID vaccine, or skeptics of the school closures,

927
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: the you know, the lockdown, those sorts of things. But

928
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: I also think in general, the right has just become

929
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: like the magnet for sort of all conspiracy theories, and so,

930
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: you know, there's just been and the Democratic Party has

931
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: become like the party of the experts, trust the science,

932
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: like that's that's you know, especially with the Democratic Party

933
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 2: becoming more heavily college educated, although there are also plenty

934
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: of MAHA people for sure, college educated, very highly educated, wealthy,

935
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 2: successful whatever. I mean, that was kind of the Hollywood

936
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: liberal type. But anyway, what do you what do you

937
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: make of that transition? Where do you think it comes from?

938
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 5: My basic sense is that when when a lot of

939
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 5: these people gave up on the idea of collective change

940
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 5: and instead began to pursue kind of individual you know,

941
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 5: self improvement, self help, as the atomization of society and

942
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 5: of communities took hold, uh, they they moved right. And

943
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 5: the male version is you know, we see it all

944
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 5: the time, and the.

945
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 2: Manager that the Bernie bros.

946
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, and also right, the Bernie bros. Who then now

947
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 5: the thing that they know or tell themselves that they're

948
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 5: going to focus on is you know, they're like you know,

949
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 5: taking you know, taking the right supplements, drinking the right powders,

950
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 5: you know, work you know, doing the right kind of workout,

951
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 5: the right amount of testosterone or whatever like that in.

952
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 2: Set of medicare for all the collective project, it's all right, well,

953
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 2: let me just let me get fit, let me do

954
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 2: what I can do individually, and and.

955
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 5: That's the that's the that's the male version of the

956
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 5: kind of woo woo you know, reiki maha stuff that

957
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 5: will you know, where you're just like, let let me

958
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 5: find my own individual spiritual practice that's gonna you know,

959
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 5: you know, get me out of this toxic culture or

960
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 5: make me detoxify it, detoxify myself as much as possible,

961
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 5: because you've you've given up the possibility of kind of

962
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 5: collective de liberation.

963
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a parallel to the Back to

964
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: the Land movement of the seventies, Yeah.

965
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 5: Same same thing, same thing. Yeah, Like we're going to

966
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 5: make we're going to change the world in the sixties

967
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 5: and then you give it and you're like, wow, this

968
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 5: world is just didn't work, not only unchangeable.

969
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 6: All our efforts backfired and so we're just going to

970
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 6: go live on a commune.

971
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: We're just going to withdraw from society altogether, live on

972
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: a commune, and then the commune.

973
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 5: Is going to fall apart, and then we're going to

974
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 5: go sell out and go to Wall Street or go

975
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 5: just do the thing that we were.

976
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 6: Destined to do.

977
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: I told you, I told you. I read this this

978
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: book about the Back to the Land movement and focused

979
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 2: on Vermont that Bernie Sanders randomly shows up in at

980
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 2: some commune and they have to make believe because he

981
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: won't stop like distracting everyone from their work and talking

982
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 2: about millionaires. Yeah, just tuber. I was like, oh my god.

983
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 2: He was at that time writing for some like you know,

984
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: socialist adjacent newspaper or something, and so he shows up

985
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 2: with the commune to like interview them and then just.

986
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,240
Speaker 6: Talking about eugen Shut up about Eugene Debs.

987
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, something like that. Yeah, something like that. Oh. Here,

988
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,479
Speaker 2: Kyle's here, special guest, Special guest. Kyle Kalinsky in the house.

989
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 9: Hey babe, literally in the house. I'm in the bedroom.

990
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 2: We were just wrapping up talking about Casey Means and

991
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: then sort of digressed into thinking about the way that

992
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: there are parallels between this moment of men in particular

993
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 2: withdrawing from like being the birdie bro looking at the

994
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 2: collective solution into like let me you know, work out

995
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: and take whatever supplements and trust whatever influencers and whatever,

996
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 2: to the moment after the sixties and the seventies when

997
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: there's Okay, well we were going to change the world.

998
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 2: Now we're going to go back to the land and

999
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 2: we're going to like set up these communes and kind

1000
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: of like do our own thing. And Ryan the other

1001
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: thing that was interesting out of that book is that

1002
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 2: I never realized how many food companies, like organic food

1003
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 2: company type things that are big names now actually came

1004
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 2: out of that vaccal land movement as well.

1005
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 6: Oh totally.

1006
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 5: That makes a lot of sense. And if we're right,

1007
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 5: then over the next you know, five years, we may

1008
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 5: see communes starting to pop up where this is kind

1009
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 5: of like the Timpoles type of compound situation.

1010
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: Right or like the the trad wife and the what

1011
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: do they call the people who there There is a

1012
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 2: movement of this of people who are like you know,

1013
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 2: moving out of cities, and this is all in the

1014
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 2: right becoming getting them like farms going and trying to

1015
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 2: be fully sustainable. There's a term for them completely oh.

1016
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 5: Sovereign sovereign citizens maybe, but yeah, they're like there's usually

1017
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 5: right wingers, the sovereign citizens.

1018
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 6: It's going to be a right wing version.

1019
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1020
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 2: Well, and it goes with like the trad wife stuff

1021
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 2: as well. You know, it's like we're withdrawing from society.

1022
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 2: We're going to go back to these other ways we're

1023
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: gonna in this. I mean there were vibes of this, yeah,

1024
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 2: I mean there was vibes of this with the seventies

1025
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 2: thing on the left to where it was like, okay,

1026
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: these new modern ways of doing agriculture, we don't want

1027
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 2: any of this mechanization. We're going to figure out how

1028
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: to use like a horse and a cart to do

1029
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: our truly, like we're going to make our own tools.

1030
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: We're not going to have electricity. That was the pure

1031
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: way to do it.

1032
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 9: So anyway, Yeah, whenever I think of how to become happy,

1033
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 9: I go let me copy the Amish. That'll work out.

1034
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know it might I have more I

1035
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: have more sympathy to that, wen, you do, babe.

1036
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 9: We rely on so much stuff that we take for granted,

1037
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 9: you know, like, whenever the power goes out and I

1038
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 9: lose the TV, I'm always like, holy shit, the TV

1039
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 9: is amazing. I wish I had that thing all the time.

1040
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 9: So I have like the opposite philosophy of those people.

1041
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 9: And the other thing is self self health help stuff

1042
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 9: in general. Like I feel like the only times I've

1043
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 9: been even somewhat interested in that in my life, they

1044
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 9: were like the worst points of my life.

1045
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 2: So I feel like, yeah, well there's submit to that.

1046
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, going down this path in general is a symptom

1047
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 9: of an underlying misery or depression or being lost in

1048
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 9: the same way that like hyper religiosity, you're being an

1049
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,959
Speaker 9: adult convert to a religion. That's a sign of like, hey, guys,

1050
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 9: let me tell you I didn't kill myself last night.

1051
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 9: I came up with this reason to not kill myself.

1052
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 9: So it's a sign of a like decaying society.

1053
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: Yes, I think we'll all agree with that. All right, Ryan,

1054
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 2: We'll let you go. I know you got a meeting,

1055
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 2: you got a Junco.

1056
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 5: Thank you brother, all right, see you guys later, bye,

1057
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 5: right bye?

1058
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 2: All right, guys. That concludes the Free Show. If you

1059
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: want to see what Kyle has to say about Biden's

1060
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 2: re emergence on the view. There's a lot to say

1061
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: about that one, about Judge Jennine being put in instead

1062
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 2: of Ed Martin as US attorney for DC, and all

1063
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: kinds of other good things. Also, we're going to answer

1064
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: a few of premium subscribers questions. Make sure to subscribe

1065
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 2: over at Breakingpoints dot com. Thank you, guys so much

1066
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 2: for your support. Have a great weekend.

1067
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 3: Yeah,