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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Whatever. The name of

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Speaker 2: the show is cool Stuff, which is a terrible thing

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Speaker 2: for me to forget, because everyone who ever talks to

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Speaker 2: me at a party says that they love my podcast

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Speaker 2: Cool People who are Doing Good Things, or some incarnation

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Speaker 2: something like that. I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy. I

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Speaker 2: know the name of my show. I also know that

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Speaker 2: my guest this week is Dana. Hi. How are you Hi?

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Speaker 1: Good? Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Before I do anything else, I have to say

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Speaker 2: that we have a producer named Sophie who's not here

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Speaker 2: right now, but we also have an audio engineer who's

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Speaker 2: here in spirit because it's listening Eva, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I mean, Hi? Eva?

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Speaker 1: Hi?

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Speaker 2: I need to eat sugar or something, or maybe I don't.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes people can tell when I like, I don't drink caffeine,

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Speaker 2: and every now and then, when I'm like driving or something,

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Speaker 2: I drink a little bit of caffeine. And then when

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Speaker 2: I show up places, I talk completely differently.

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Speaker 1: Like have you been on the coffee?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly. So this is part two of a two

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Speaker 2: parter of diogenies of noopay just diogenies. Every other diogenes

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Speaker 2: is Diogenies something.

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Speaker 1: But he's he's the original.

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Speaker 2: He is, He's the main one we remember. And the

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Speaker 2: most famous image of Diogenies is that he lived in

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Speaker 2: a barrel. But barrels didn't exist, so he didn't live

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Speaker 2: in a barrel. This is the kind of shit I

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Speaker 2: live for. Barrels were invented by friend of the pod

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Speaker 2: that galls the Celtic barbarians of France.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I was gonna guess something up there? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, where there's like more wood and less pottery.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly, or like the medieval Europe from my TV. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it comes with a portoclist that like, fucking I

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Speaker 2: pronounced this word. Yeah, There's no barrels in Greece, just jars,

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Speaker 2: and he lived in a jar a piece. These are

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Speaker 2: basically huge jars for storing food. They are essentially the

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Speaker 2: barrels of the time. I'm not some historians spent many,

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Speaker 2: many pages complaining about people saying he lived in a barrel,

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Speaker 2: and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Like, it's fine, it's not a yeah, it's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he lived in the barrel of the time, which

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Speaker 2: is the pithos. These are semi permanent structures. They're so

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Speaker 2: big and heavy, they were anchored to the ground, and

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Speaker 2: they were actually pretty expensive, and they were counted as

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Speaker 2: part of the real estate sale of a house. It's

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Speaker 2: like a storage yeah, it's like the outbuilding, right. And

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Speaker 2: whenever they cracked, they were patched up with lead, which

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Speaker 2: might be part of why he threw hands.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, he's just living surrounded by lead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. And who put him up in this jar?

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Speaker 2: Because you're like, ah, he lived in a barrel, He's

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Speaker 2: Oscar of the grouse. He lived in trash. This is

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Speaker 2: an expensive thing to let him live in. Right. The

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Speaker 2: fact that he got to live in one meant someone

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Speaker 2: was like, you can have this fairly major piece of

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Speaker 2: our infrastructure. And who put him up in that jar?

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Speaker 2: But friends of the pod I covered them a couple

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Speaker 2: weeks ago. The trans priestesses of the Goddess Sibylly excellent,

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Speaker 2: And no one will actually talk about that because they're

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Speaker 2: just like, ah, the temple of Sibylly, and so you

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Speaker 2: actually have to like know that, like Sibylly was the

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Speaker 2: one who's the cultists that they use the word cult

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Speaker 2: differently in this context, like just literally means the priests

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Speaker 2: and stuff around a god and the temple are all

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Speaker 2: these trans ladies the galley. Have you ever heard of

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Speaker 2: these folks? I had only heard of them in passing.

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Speaker 1: I have not.

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Speaker 2: I clearly got really excited about them. They actually come

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Speaker 2: more from the Anatolian Peninsula, and they were imported into

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Speaker 2: Greece and then later into Rome. And sometimes trans women

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Speaker 2: will use it as like we used to be revered,

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Speaker 2: Like nah, the trans priestesses of Sivilly were like spit

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Speaker 2: on and hated and like worked as sex workers. But

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Speaker 2: they had each other and they had like some amount

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Speaker 2: of respect within society, and they had a temple right

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Speaker 2: there on the side of the Agora, I believe, and

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Speaker 2: Sibylly was like the mother of gods, you know, which

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Speaker 2: is kind of a little bit funny because she was

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Speaker 2: sort of an import But they were like, well, we

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Speaker 2: want this like real big important god from over there,

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Speaker 2: because it seems to be doing them a bunch of good.

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Speaker 2: And it's a shame in a way that like, like

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Speaker 2: I don't know how he interacted with these women. He

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Speaker 2: might have actually been like, oh, well, they're women, so

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Speaker 2: it's fine. Because the priestesses of Cibylly were like, no,

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Speaker 2: we're women, right, but he he is transphobic, right, but

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Speaker 2: he also is like he's shitty to effeminate men, and

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Speaker 2: he tells them that they should live as nature intended.

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Speaker 2: Like at one point he chastises a man for shaving.

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Speaker 2: He's like, ah, you're trying to be a woman, you know, Like.

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Speaker 1: Isn't this guy like against norms? Like what are we doing?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? But his two things of cynic culture and this

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Speaker 2: is where he could go either way. He's really into

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Speaker 2: living as nature intended and not as society tries to

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Speaker 2: make you be. And so overall I think this man

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Speaker 2: would not be right wing at all, but I could

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Speaker 2: totally see him falling down a weird rabbit hole in

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Speaker 2: the like a culture war.

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Speaker 1: Like he'd like do like paleo diets and like yeah,

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Speaker 1: like he'd go down that route.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely cool. But yeah, the fucking transphrass is of sibylly,

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Speaker 2: save his fucking life. Give him a really nice place

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Speaker 2: to live. This jar is like, I mean whatever, it's

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Speaker 2: still open on the side and cold, but he likes

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Speaker 2: all that shit anyway, So but it's sturdy. Yeah, totally

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Speaker 2: ifip cracks just patch that sh it up with lead.

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Speaker 2: It's a very striking image living in a jar. But

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Speaker 2: he didn't invent living in these things. A couple decades

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Speaker 2: before he was born, there was this fuck off long

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Speaker 2: war between Athens and Sparta, and people suffered from illness,

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Speaker 2: and they like built two walls, and then they lived

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Speaker 2: between the walls in order to not die. And people

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Speaker 2: started living in jars in this like internal refugee situation.

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Speaker 2: So this isn't that he's been wildly unique eccentric. It's

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Speaker 2: like living in a walmart tent.

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Speaker 1: I see.

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Speaker 2: This was on the edge of the Agora, the big

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Speaker 2: public square where philosophers hung out and talk to the

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Speaker 2: crowds and all their should happen to besides philosophers. But

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Speaker 2: everything I read was just about the philosophers. He basically

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Speaker 2: worked in the Agora. He would ask for food he

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Speaker 2: would never beg and dispense advice and gather up a

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Speaker 2: crew of disciples. He hung out with the other mendicants too,

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Speaker 2: the other beggars. Once he was both better then and

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Speaker 2: had it rougher than.

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Speaker 1: At the same time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I actually don't know if he saw himself

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Speaker 2: as better than those people or not, but I know

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Speaker 2: he saw what he was doing is not begging. So

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Speaker 2: I kind of think he was a dick to people,

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Speaker 2: but I could be wrong. And he would hang out

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Speaker 2: by the temples and shit, because the temples would be

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Speaker 2: kind of the places where they like wouldn't run people out,

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Speaker 2: you know, And so he would like hang out, hide

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Speaker 2: from the rain under the awningings and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Not inside the temples, but the areas outside. He declared

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Speaker 2: that the people of Athens had made the temples in

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Speaker 2: his honor to provide him with a place to live.

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Speaker 2: And I kind of like that kind of arrogance. When

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Speaker 2: it's coming from a guy like this, You.

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Speaker 1: Feel like he's trolling, yeah, exactly, controlling them. He's like,

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Speaker 1: oh this, you did it for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He relied on the public baths and when

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Speaker 2: it was cold, he'd go visit forges to warm up.

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Speaker 2: He probably squatted empty houses and empty tombs, and like

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Speaker 2: the other beggars, sorry the askers, he stole what was

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Speaker 2: left unsacrificial altars to the gods, especially the god Hakat,

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Speaker 2: and he would sort through the trash at the end

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Speaker 2: of the market day. And he just he lived how

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Speaker 2: people live when they're living rough and his like voluntariness

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Speaker 2: is like I get the feeling it's like a little

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Speaker 2: bit like he could maybe work his way out of it,

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Speaker 2: but he also probably is like kind of making the

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Speaker 2: best with what he's got. Is a little bit how

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Speaker 2: I feel, because he is in exile and property lists

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Speaker 2: and you know, has no rights in this town.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of read it the flipway, which is that, like,

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Speaker 1: is this guy claiming it's voluntary when he really doesn't

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Speaker 1: have other offs?

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Speaker 2: I can't one hundred percent tell I think he probably

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Speaker 2: would have. I mean, later he's gonna well quote unquote

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Speaker 2: work as a tutor because he's owned by a guy. Later,

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Speaker 2: but like he's educated enough, I suspect he could have

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Speaker 2: found work and didn't want to.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, but.

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Speaker 2: I'm not certain everyone's like really strong opinions about him.

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Speaker 2: I clearly do too, But I get annoyed at other

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Speaker 2: people's strong opinions about him because I'm too much like

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Speaker 2: this man, and other people will kind of like dig

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Speaker 2: at him, being like, oh, he says he should live rough,

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Speaker 2: but he refused to work with his hands, And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, and gives a shit. He's all about

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Speaker 2: being an animal. Animals don't work with their paws unless

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Speaker 2: they have to, like right, animals are notoriously lazy, they're

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Speaker 2: conserving energy. Yeah, he lived off of barley, cake, lentils,

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Speaker 2: fava beans, fruit olives, the occasional fish. And he would

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Speaker 2: talk shit on other people for eating a lot of meat,

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Speaker 2: not because killing animals was wrong, but because it was gluttony,

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Speaker 2: deep fancy things like meat especially, would talk shit on

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Speaker 2: the athlete. But he was obsessed with physical health and exercise,

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Speaker 2: but more in this like calisthetics, like lean muscle mass way,

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Speaker 2: which that's what's virtuous. And so he's like probably out

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Speaker 2: there just doing push ups and shit in public, which

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Speaker 2: I think is kind of cool, honestly.

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Speaker 1: It's hilarious. But he doesn't want the people who are

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Speaker 1: like lifting weights, like being over.

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Speaker 2: The top, Like yeah, yeah, because lifting weights just to

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Speaker 2: gain muscle mass is vanity, is my read of him.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm thinking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but like being fit, you know, and it's like

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Speaker 2: I lift weights, So I spend way too much of

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Speaker 2: my time, which is actually not very much of my time,

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Speaker 2: but it's still way too much time my time watching

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Speaker 2: YouTube videos about like fitness and shit. Right, and like

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Speaker 2: there is this tension between the like body weight exercise

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Speaker 2: people and the weightlifters. Yeah, all that he owned, by

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Speaker 2: popular accord at the time was a knapsack, a cloak,

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Speaker 2: a staff, and a clay cup. He later threw away

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Speaker 2: his cup when he watched a little kid drink by

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Speaker 2: cupping his hands. He was like, oh, nature made me

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Speaker 2: a cup.

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Speaker 1: Oh I never realized. I never saw these, I know,

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Speaker 1: And that was like what I was like. You had

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Speaker 1: to see a kid do it.

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Speaker 2: Come on, you had to have known that. But maybe

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Speaker 2: he was raised so rich, like he never had to

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Speaker 2: drink with his hands cupped. I don't know. But this

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Speaker 2: dude lived outside sometimes anyway, whatever, I don't know. That's

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Speaker 2: all he owned. The later Cynics are going to copy

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Speaker 2: a style. The Cynics were around for hundreds of years.

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Speaker 2: I'm not covering them as much, but and they're all

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Speaker 2: about their knapsacks. This is the mark of the Cynic

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Speaker 2: is you carry your pack with you everywhere. And I

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Speaker 2: love this because when I was a street kid, when

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Speaker 2: I was a traveler as I would have called it,

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Speaker 2: but not in the UK sense, when I was a

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Speaker 2: crosspunk whatever the fuck, you would always have your pack

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Speaker 2: on you. It was the thing that marked you as

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Speaker 2: a traveler, and leaving your pack at someone's house to

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Speaker 2: go out felt like wrong. So I'm like showing up

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Speaker 2: at punk shows and leaving my pack in the corner,

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Speaker 2: like the two other krusty kids leaving their packs in

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Speaker 2: the corner, but like, you always have your pack with you.

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Speaker 2: It's also a really good way to get police attention

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Speaker 2: to have your pack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, it was this long standing thing where like I

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Speaker 2: don't do crime, and the reason I don't do crime

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Speaker 2: is that when I was younger, I would get searched

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Speaker 2: an id'd almost every day, and so it doesn't occur

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Speaker 2: to me that it's possible to do crime. Like I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense in my head that you could

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Speaker 2: own drugs because clearly every single time you're searched. Right,

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Speaker 2: this hasn't happened to me in decades, But like, live

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Speaker 2: with a backpack outside and you're gonna get searched, and.

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Speaker 1: Instead of like the cup and the staff, you have

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Speaker 1: like the slink shot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. I absolutely had one for a while. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's so funny. Although then I started making my own

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Speaker 2: of by sewing little I would find dumpster pieces of

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Speaker 2: craft paper, and I was so booklets and I would

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Speaker 2: like make yeah, and I'd take fabric and i'd like

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Speaker 2: fabric bind and make these like books. And they were

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Speaker 2: like tiny, they were the size of my palm. And

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Speaker 2: I'd carry that in my pocket. So I always had

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Speaker 2: a notebook that I would keep my schedule and like

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Speaker 2: notes in. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: See I knew it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, and a spork. Of course, the can

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Speaker 2: opener on it so good. Yeah, because of the little

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Speaker 2: can opener, little p. Thirty eight on the end of

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Speaker 2: a sport, I could always open a can of Amy's

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Speaker 2: chili because I was absolutely a vegan person.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, dude, I know exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you met me, or the equivalent of yeah, they

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Speaker 2: were my friends. Yeah. But Diogenes did take it a

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Speaker 2: step further because when I listed all the things that

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Speaker 2: he wore, you're thinking Margaret left out the clothes on

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Speaker 2: his back. I did not. He did not have clothes.

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Speaker 1: He went around naked.

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Speaker 2: He had a cloak, oh, a cloak, okay, yeah, and

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Speaker 2: he would make fun of the false aesthetics who wore sandals.

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Speaker 1: This guy, he's so annoying, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so none of the cynics. They wouldn't wear a

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Speaker 2: tunic under their cloak. He's also gonna be masturbating in public.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to that. Oh yeah, everyone kept telling me

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Speaker 2: about this guy. I'd like, this guy rules he's the

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Speaker 2: most punk rock philosopher and like he might be that,

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Speaker 2: but also went in the derogatory way, you know. And

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Speaker 2: he was famous for skipping the big public banquets because

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Speaker 2: he hated parties as wasteful. He loved critiquing people, but

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Speaker 2: he actually he felt it was a form of love

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Speaker 2: and affection to critique people. He wasn't like, there's something

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Speaker 2: wrong with you. He's like, the following thing is wrong

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Speaker 2: with you. I care about you. I actually don't know

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Speaker 2: his tone, but like he wrote about that, this is

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Speaker 2: what he was trying to do. He taught that it

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Speaker 2: was important to always tell people what was on your mind.

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Speaker 2: He's into that like radical honesty thing that's really annoying,

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Speaker 2: which is funny because I believe in honesty. I just

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Speaker 2: don't believe in being like like, I don't want someone

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Speaker 2: to tell me but my dress makes me look fat.

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Speaker 2: That's just not necessary.

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Speaker 1: There's a social texts. Yeah, you know, we kind of

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Speaker 1: keep the context in mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So people called him the dog to insult him,

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Speaker 2: and he took that on with pride. He once quipped

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Speaker 2: that Diogenes was just a nickname, that the dog was

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Speaker 2: his real name, and to be a dog was to

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Speaker 2: be outside of society, and that suited him just fine.

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Speaker 2: One time at a banquet, people were mocking him by

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Speaker 2: throwing him bones, and they're like, ah, you're the dog.

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Speaker 2: So one he's at a banquet, maybe this is why

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Speaker 2: he stopped going. Honestly, I don't know. I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 2: with him on this one. I didn't expect to be

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Speaker 2: with him when he's okay. So they're throwing him bones

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Speaker 2: and I'm calling him the dog. So he walks over

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Speaker 2: to rich people, he lifts up his fucking leg and

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Speaker 2: peas on their legs.

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Speaker 1: He's like, hey, I'm a dog.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so funny. The only quote I knew by

305
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 2: him before I started this research was in a rich

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Speaker 2: man's house, there is no place to spit but his face.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's that is excellent. I know, that's excellent.

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Speaker 2: I know, and I love it because it's like also like, well,

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Speaker 2: you gotta spit, but if you're in a fancy house.

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Speaker 2: You can't spit on the floor, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean we all have to spit at some point.

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Speaker 1: It's just like a normal function that we have to do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's so funny. In Arabic language, it's similar, we insult

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Speaker 1: people by calling them dogh okay, and I love dogs

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Speaker 1: and so like, if my kid hears me say like dog,

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Speaker 1: like in a derogatory way, he'd be like, I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: So there's such a strange like.

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Speaker 2: I'm the best friend you've ever.

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Speaker 1: Had, You're so nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah totally.

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Speaker 1: But also I could see the pink can be a problem.

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Speaker 2: I see that now, Yeah yeah, no, yeah, totally. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He claimed to be the richest man in the world

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Speaker 2: because he had nothing. He would walk to Corinth, where

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Speaker 2: it was cooler in the summers, and then to Athens,

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Speaker 2: where it was warmer in the winters. He liked how

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Speaker 2: he had two cities, and he liked cities in general

328
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Speaker 2: because quote, the sage should look to settle where fools

329
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Speaker 2: are most numerous, in order to prove them and correct

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Speaker 2: their stupidity.

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Speaker 1: So just like to troll maximum effect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, you gotta go to those places. Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: Whereas the later cynics were like, Oh, we don't want

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Speaker 2: to live in cities, but we're not quite back to

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00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 2: the Landers. We've got to kind of live outside the

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Speaker 2: cities and then come into the cities to yell at

337
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 2: people and then go back out to where we can

338
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Speaker 2: live simply and close to nature. But he's like, no,

339
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to live close to nature by living in

340
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Speaker 2: the city. And I have a lot of respect for that.

341
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Speaker 2: That feeling rich while having nothing is a really powerful

342
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Speaker 2: and fascinating thing. I think about just an anecdote that

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Speaker 2: I think is fun to me. I was squatting in Amsterdam,

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Speaker 2: and I mostly lived in this building that had been

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Speaker 2: quote unquote abandoned by a mafia boss because he was

346
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Speaker 2: in prison, and so all of these like Dutch squads

347
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 2: had taken over this like kind of mansion ye row

348
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 2: home right in downtown Amsterdam, which was legal at the

349
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Speaker 2: time if a place had been empty for more than

350
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Speaker 2: a year, and they made a beautiful home out of

351
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 2: it and stuff heavily barricaded because every now and then

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00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 2: the mafia boss would send around as people to come

353
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Speaker 2: try and rouse to us. I wasn't very fighty, but

354
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 2: some of my friends were very fighty and so we

355
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 2: were never roused it. And then I moved into the

356
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Speaker 2: squad across the street across the canal, but I kind

357
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 2: of had both houses. And at one point I was

358
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Speaker 2: like hanging out with a bunch of folks from Spain

359
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 2: and they were like didn't speak much English, and I

360
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,560
Speaker 2: like took him my one house and they took him

361
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Speaker 2: my other house across the street, and you know, and

362
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 2: all of them are like shared with multiple people. And

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Speaker 2: someone just like looks at me and goes like, you're

364
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:31,920
Speaker 2: a and she's like looking for the words. She's like,

365
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 2: you're a king. And I have never felt richer in

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Speaker 2: my life than that moment where I got to occupy

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Speaker 2: two different stolen properties.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I get that. I get that. You're like, actually,

369
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,680
Speaker 1: I have so much to like access right now. Yeah,

370
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Speaker 1: but there's also this like you can feel rich in

371
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Speaker 1: the liberation from your things. Yeah, Like that is so

372
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Speaker 1: intriguing to me as someone who can never live like that.

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Speaker 1: It's intriguing to just like not have anything to weigh

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Speaker 1: you down.

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00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 2: And so he gets to have because he compares himself

376
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Speaker 2: to I think the King of Persia or something I

377
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,159
Speaker 2: can't remember where he's like, oh, that guy has a

378
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 2: summer home and a winter home, and so do I.

379
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:17,800
Speaker 2: And he's like trolling, but he's also.

380
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Speaker 1: Not right and like the experience he's having the same thing.

381
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like when you talk to people who like

382
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 2: live in vans not out of choice, they're like, yeah,

383
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,360
Speaker 2: I've spent my winters down in Arizona and my summer's

384
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,800
Speaker 2: up in the Pacific Northwest, and they like find a

385
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,399
Speaker 2: lot of beauty and joy in that freedom, you know. Yeah,

386
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,880
Speaker 2: But what I have chosen to find beauty and joy

387
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,880
Speaker 2: and instead of living in abandoned buildings is selling advertisements on podcasts.

388
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 2: I found a letter from younger me to older me

389
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 2: that forgives me for this.

390
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,439
Speaker 1: By the way, Oh that's so funny. You can one

391
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 1: day work in advertising.

392
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Speaker 2: I found a letter that was like, look, like, as

393
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,639
Speaker 2: long as you hold your values, you don't have to

394
00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: keep living in the same way. You don't have to

395
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,840
Speaker 2: keep being a school water Like. I was basically like, look,

396
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 2: the lifestyle stuff isn't what matters, the like anti capitalism

397
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 2: and anti authoritarianism matters.

398
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

399
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's so nice. I know. It's a nice

400
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 2: present I left for myself when you're twenty. If you're listening,

401
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 2: write a letter to older you to be nice to you.

402
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 2: But either way, go out and buy this stuff. Now,

403
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:27,199
Speaker 2: do whatever you want. Here's that and we're back. And

404
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 2: so he's traveled all over Greece to spread his philosophy,

405
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 2: and he felt that his freedom was his wealth, and

406
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,439
Speaker 2: I get it. He divided all actions into two things,

407
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 2: those that accomplish something that's useful, and going after useless things. Power, fame,

408
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 2: and money are all useless from his point of view.

409
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 2: I think this misunderstands how social change happens. But he

410
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 2: also he doesn't have politics. He is a life. He

411
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:52,440
Speaker 2: has a philosophy for.

412
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think he has a theory of change

413
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 1: for radically changing society.

414
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,880
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. One time he went to the Olympics

415
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 2: and he was like sports, what kind of value is that?

416
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 2: And he talked kind of shit on everyone who won,

417
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 2: Like at one point this like this guy wins wrestling

418
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 2: or whatever the fuck. But as he's like walking out,

419
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: he like turns his eyes because he like sees a

420
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 2: pretty woman, and Diogenes is like, ah see, he's not

421
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 2: really free or powerful because he's enslaved by his desire for.

422
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: Like for a guy who really wants to be like

423
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 1: in touch with nature. Like it's such a contradiction, like, right,

424
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 1: you've got desires, yeah, Like especially that one. That's a

425
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 1: weird one to point out.

426
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 2: I know, because he also he actually like, well, we'll

427
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 2: talk about it is if you was on sex and

428
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 2: a little bit okay, good. Yeah. One Greek writer from

429
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 2: a few centuries later, dio Christosum, wrote that unlike the

430
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: others who quote wished to see the athletes and fill

431
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 2: their stomachs, Diogenies instead came to quote observe men and

432
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: their folly. Basically, he showed up to hate on people

433
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 2: for liking sports ball, and a lot of intellectuals would

434
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 2: go to these games to give public lectures of their

435
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: ideas because this is where the people are, and public

436
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: lectures was the main way of getting ideas out until

437
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 2: like probably about fucking nineteen twenty or so, like until radio,

438
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: you know.

439
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: So they'd be watching a game and then like they'd

440
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 1: start to like, you know, try to grab attention.

441
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: I think it would be like because like you go

442
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 2: to the games and it's a big public air thing,

443
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 2: like not probably like while people are wrestling, but probably

444
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,719
Speaker 2: like when people like walk out or mingling and stuff,

445
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: because I think I didn't quite understand toy, start reading

446
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: history just how important the street orator was to culture,

447
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 2: where like, instead of listening to podcasts, you go out

448
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 2: and you find some usually fairly amusing person standing on

449
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 2: a corner. We now always have images of just someone

450
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 2: standing there and being like the sky is falling, or

451
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 2: a like, friends, don't you hate the Romans? We should

452
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 2: all be free? But like a good street orator was

453
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 2: infotainment mmmm, and it was a very popular form of

454
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 2: it and will probably end up back there at some point.

455
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: He met Alexander the Great, probably in corn and Alexander

456
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: wanted to meet this famous vagabond philosopher. But Diogenes is like, well,

457
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: I'm not going to like go meet you at your

458
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: place and do courtly shit. You gotta come see me

459
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 2: in my jar. Yeah. Well, in this case it's actually

460
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: Corinth where he doesn't have the jar. Oh okay, and

461
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 2: he's living in a cypress grove.

462
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: Cool, actually beautiful, I know, it.

463
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: Actually seems really nice. So he makes Alexander the Great

464
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: come see him in his cypress grove where he's living

465
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 2: in and Alexander asked him where he got his name,

466
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: like the dog, and he's like, I fawn on those

467
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 2: who give me something, I bark at those who don't,

468
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: and I sink my teeth into scoundrels.

469
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: Wow, he's dope.

470
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah no, And apparently Alexander the Great was like, I'm

471
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 2: just gonna quote my friend I was talking to about

472
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: this earlier today. We were like, oh, Alexander the Great

473
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: shows up and is like, oh, if I was an

474
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: Alexander the Great, I'd totally be you. You're so cool

475
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: as if. And again my friend's paraphrasing to this someone

476
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 2: who's just read Fight Clobe for the first time and

477
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: like thinks that they're like just like Tyler Durdan or

478
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 2: whatever the fuck you know, because Tyler Durden is the

479
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: other he is Oscar the Grouch and Tyler Durton. He's

480
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: like the stuff you own owns you.

481
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: That's so funny, and Alexander was just this fanboy yeah

482
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: a little bit.

483
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,479
Speaker 2: That's like the famed meeting. But another interesting thing he

484
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: actually met Alexander's father to Phillip the Second. Because this

485
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: guy like get captured a lot. I actually don't know

486
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: why he's at this battle. But he's at the Battle

487
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 2: of Caronia, and I don't know why someone knows. I'm

488
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: not saying it's unknown. I just I don't know. And

489
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: he's captured. I think he's probably just traveling when this happens,

490
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: or he's like off to go see it. I get

491
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: the MN feeling he likes being a fly on the

492
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: wall different places. He gets captured, and he's so rude

493
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 2: to King Philip, because I think King Phillip's like, oh,

494
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 2: you're the famous Baguan philosopher, well I have you now,

495
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 2: And Guy's like, man, I don't give a shit, fuck you,

496
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: And King Philip is so amused that he lets him go.

497
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: Amazing. Oh my gosh. I aspire to this level of charisma.

498
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: I think that, like when people are really famous, treating

499
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: them like they're just people is kind of the way

500
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 2: to their heart.

501
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: Listen, I'm sorry to make this reference, but this is

502
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: like kind of why Epstein was beloved by this like

503
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: elite class, because he could say whatever he wanted to

504
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: them and they like that was refreshing to them. Yeah.

505
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: Fuck, that's almost that makes sense.

506
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: I listened to this podcast by Jewish Currents on Epstein's

507
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: like whole rise, and I was just like, oh, rich

508
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: people are weird.

509
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so weird. Sometimes people like having their

510
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: asses kissed, and sometimes people are like everyone else kisses

511
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: your ass. But I'm gonna tell you what's up your breastanks, buddy,

512
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 2: you can like nag a king if you work it right,

513
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: you know.

514
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, he basically nagged his way into the infamy.

515
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he got captured another time, and for longer,

516
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: there was a ton of piracy in the Mediterranean because

517
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 2: the entire economy is built on slavery, and people wanted

518
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 2: to go ca capture people to enslave. So pirates would

519
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: attack ships and coastal villages and rich people would get

520
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: ransomed and poor people would get enslaved and sold. And

521
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: so Diogenes was captured by pirates by a captain who

522
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: is either Harpelias, Skirpelius, or Skirtalius. Those are the three

523
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: names that came down through history for him. All wish

524
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: are great names. The Roman names are amusing. I guess

525
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: they're not even Roman. This era names are so amusing

526
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: to me. I feel rude that I feel that way,

527
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: but I just do. I'm into the name Skirtalius the Pirate,

528
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 2: the dread Skirtalius.

529
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's got to wait to it, you know. Yeah,

530
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: it's not like Robert.

531
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: No, totally exactly. It's not that I think these names

532
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: are silly, although I think that the Roman ones get

533
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: silly because everything is like Maximilius and everything isn't Us.

534
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: And I guess that's what I'm thinking here. Anyway, whatever,

535
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, I am wrong when I think names are silly.

536
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: That's a true fact. So they take him back to

537
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: Crete and they sell him. And he's in his fifties

538
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: or his seventies or who fucking knows, some age at

539
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: that point, but he's not young, and the story goes, well, okay.

540
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: There's two versions of the story. The rest of his

541
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 2: followers are like, we're gonna ransom you, and he's like, nah,

542
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: don't worry about it. No one should try and improve

543
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: their station in life. That's one version of the story.

544
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: Another version that doesn't contradict it. He's up on the

545
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: auction block and he says a rich guy who's kind

546
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 2: of effeminine walking through the crowd, Zenniades, And he doesn't

547
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: know Zenny Addies, but he figure that guy will do

548
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: so he says to the auctioneer, sell me to him.

549
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: He needs a master.

550
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

551
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: Bold because for years at this point, Diogenes had been

552
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: teaching that, in order to roughly quote Tyler Durdan a

553
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: fight club, the stuff that you own ends up owning you.

554
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: And he meant it literally. He was like, a slave

555
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: owner is actually enslaved by his own ownership of other people,

556
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: and so in some ways the slave's the real master.

557
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: And that's the idea that a slave owner is enslaved

558
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: by his ownership of someone. I'm down with. Now. Actual

559
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: slavery is much worse, right.

560
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: No, we're talking conceptually, yeah.

561
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 2: But by the time you're like, the slave owns you,

562
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know, man, I don't know. He's

563
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 2: been teaching that you basically should never own a slave

564
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: or be a slave because you have to let yourself

565
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: not get attached to possession. And anyone who lets themselves

566
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: be ruled by gluttony, sex, or sleep are quote slaves

567
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 2: three times over according to Diogenes.

568
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: Okay, come on, these things are not all the same.

569
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: He doesn't like dependents, but I don't know what the

570
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: sleep situation is into it.

571
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: I think he's just like I sleep six hours a

572
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: day and I get up and do eighteen thousand push ups.

573
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: That's no. He's like, I do micro naps, Like.

574
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.

575
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

576
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: He would have been a digital nomady.

577
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

578
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 2: Oh you need is a laptop?

579
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

580
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: Because he also wrote books, so he clearly owned more

581
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: than and just these things. You know, at various points,

582
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: maybe he's like borrowing a pen to write a book.

583
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: I don't know whatever, And basically he's like, hey, sell

584
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: me to that guy, and people are like, oh, it's

585
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 2: because he believes so much in this philosophy. I think

586
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: Diogenes is being canny and knew it would go better

587
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 2: with that guy, probably because he knows he's educated, like

588
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: he himself is educated, and he's like, oh, I can

589
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 2: get myself into like a teaching job instead of a

590
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: fucking mining job, you know, right. He works for Zeniades

591
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: for a few years, running the man's household and tutoring

592
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: his kids, who apparently all loved him, and then he

593
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: was freed. Letting people buy their own freedom was a

594
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: way to recoup capital costs. You steal a few years

595
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: of someone's life and then you let them pay you back.

596
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: Your upfront cost. And also if you promise the slave

597
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: you're going to free them, they're much nicer to you.

598
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you are able to extract their labor.

599
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And so it's technically hypocritical of him to

600
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: want to become free again and to like buy himself

601
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: this freedom. And I do not blame him for this

602
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: hypocrisy at all. This is a completely natural thing. He

603
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: taught that if you desire to better your station in society,

604
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: like a slave who wants to be free, as the

605
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: example uses, it'll never be enough. You'll get free, and

606
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: then you'll want to be a slave owner, obviously, naturally,

607
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: that just happens to everyone, and then you'd want to

608
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: be a landowner, and then a citizen, and then an officer,

609
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: and then a king and then godhood. Where does it stop?

610
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: I know, it's just too much slop, very slope.

611
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: But like whatever is a philosopher, he's going to make

612
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: random as philosophical points, and he sharees oak the freedom

613
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: that was offered him, and he didn't go and buy someone,

614
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: so good on him. He gets back at it. He's

615
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: walking around dispensing wisdom and insults. Being an edge lord,

616
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: he would always walk around backwards and just to be

617
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: weird and be like he's like a thing where he's like, oh,

618
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: I'm walking backwards. You're saying me, I'm walking wrong, but

619
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: you're walking towards bad things because you're walking towards your desires.

620
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god. This guy is insufferable at some level,

621
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: I know.

622
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: And he would wander around with a lit lantern during

623
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: the day and be like, I'm trying to find a

624
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: wise man, like you know, like peerings.

625
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: Just this guy's annoying, I know, but I guess you know,

626
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: as far as like things you see on the street,

627
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: a shtick isn't so bad.

628
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: No, totally exactly, Like when you think about it, this

629
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: man is busking. I was living in a squad in

630
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: South Bronx called Costadel Soul Rest in Peace Castad Soul,

631
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: and a bunch of us would go down to I

632
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: don't even remember somewhere in Manhattan and set up a

633
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: little booth made out of cardboard that looks like Lucy's

634
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: Advice stand peanuts and wrote like Advice one dollar, and

635
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: people would come up and ask us for life advice.

636
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: Amazing and like it wasn't the best way to like

637
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: make a ton of money busking, but like it, it

638
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: was fun. It kept people engaged, people.

639
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: Like you interacted.

640
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like it it humanized us to people. Yeah.

641
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: I've seen people at like Central Park, like selling a poem,

642
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: you know.

643
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: Totally same, same kind of thing. Yeah, And if you

644
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: want people to come by your poem, maybe you got

645
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: to walk around with a lantern and say I'm trying

646
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: to find a wise man, you know, like it's all advertising. Yeah,

647
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: and yeah, he was against doing anything just because society

648
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: said so, and this led to interesting places like, for example,

649
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: masturbating in public.

650
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: Okay, I feel like you're going to lose me.

651
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah no, I yeah, we're all lost here. The cynics

652
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: were all about masturbation, especially Diogenes. He wrote quote if

653
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: only one could relieve hunger by rubbing one's belly, which

654
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: is funny. Oh my god, the public is the only

655
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: problem I have with that quote, Like.

656
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

657
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: And he did everything in public, including potentially and this

658
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: is contested, but that's because people fight about later Christians

659
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: hated him, and also some later Christians also really liked him,

660
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: and like everyone just fights about what he actually did.

661
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: All of his like rough Edges people like, nah, that

662
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: was just made up by his haters, or he was

663
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: he didn't really mean it about cannibalism. He was just oh, yeah,

664
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: I guess this's another thing. He was just saying some shit,

665
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: you know. Okay, but I suspect this man jerked off

666
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: in public, and I suspect, like everyone else who jerks

667
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: off in public under a cloak, he is doing it

668
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: because he's a creep. And his reasoning supposedly my read

669
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: as he comes up with philosophical excuses for things. His

670
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: reason is that we shouldn't let stuff happen only behind

671
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: closed doors. But he also might not have ever done

672
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: it at all. There's a bunch of stuff that the

673
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: cynics would talk about doing, but there's no evidence to

674
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: them doing or even promoting doing. They're just saying, like, hey,

675
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: while we're questioning everything.

676
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: It's like a thought experiment.

677
00:32:53,160 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, including incest, cannibalism, and public sex and masturbation. Okay, later.

678
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: Cinics wanted to be into self denial. We'll talk about

679
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: those later. Later. Sinics wanted to be into self denial

680
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: to include no sexual pleasure, but Diogenes was like, no,

681
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: it's like better to seek pleasure to deal with pent

682
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: up needs. Like I think he saw sex kind of

683
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: like he saw eating, where he's like, you gotta gotta

684
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: do it.

685
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: It's like a function.

686
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, which isn't as technically true, but you know whatever.

687
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: But the Cynics, including Diogenies, were all about sexual consent.

688
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: So this is even like his worst sexual crimes, he

689
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: is infinitely more moral than the society he's rebellion against.

690
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: Like even if he like did all of the shit

691
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: that is not good that I just listed, they believed

692
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: in sexual consent, the Cynics, and specifically they also believed

693
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: in stopping the culture of fucking children.

694
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, so many contradictions here, because like masturbating in

695
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: public to like an audience is not really because.

696
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: It's not consent totally. And so that's like I would

697
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: like to imagine he or at least later Cynics are like,

698
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: I thought this part through a little further.

699
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: You know, No, he'd probably be like, but they're out

700
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: in public, so they've.

701
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 2: Consented, Yeah, totally, because it's this fucking thing. My personal

702
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: read is that that was his fucking kink and he

703
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: came up with excuses, but it's possible he didn't do it.

704
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 2: At all, And the Cynics believed in all three kinds

705
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: of sex masturbation, married sex, and unmarried sex between consenting partners,

706
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: and they talked about defended incest, but there's no evidence

707
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 2: that they promoted or practiced it, much like cannibalism, there's

708
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: no evidence of it. Ironically, the Christians were the ones

709
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: who had attacked them about it. On a certain level,

710
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: if you believe in transubstantiation, you are participating in a

711
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: cannibal cult. I don't make the rules. Yeah, and it's

712
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: ironic that these cynics, who obsessed with practice what you preach,

713
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 2: talked about incesting cannibalism but didn't seem to practice it.

714
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: But I am glad for this hypocrisy.

715
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 3: Yeah.

716
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, some contradictions are necessary here because they're crazy.

717
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: The only actual public sex we know that happened was

718
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 2: two disciples, Krates and Hipparchia, which of course was written

719
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: as his disciple Krates and his wife, even though like

720
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 2: it specifically mentions that she was also a disciple of

721
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: like God, fucking damn it. Anyway, whatever, she's also a

722
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: cynic and they're married, and they probably fucked in public.

723
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: A bunch the Synics, mostly refused marriage, and when they

724
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: did get married, they did away with all the various

725
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: customs around it, like, for example, they figured women should

726
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: only marry people that they wanted to marry. This was

727
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: part of the big wild difference revolutionary. Yeah. Krates, for

728
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: his part, when he proposed, he stood naked in front

729
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: of his future fiance Hipparchia, and he said, this is

730
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: the bridegroom and this is his property. Think it over,

731
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: for you will be no companion for me unless you

732
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: adopt my way of life.

733
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: Okay, I gotta give him a little bit of credit.

734
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's just like all right, like this

735
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: is what I have. Yeah. Later, Krates Krote seems honestly,

736
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: I want to like, maybe him and hipparchy are they

737
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: actually like really cool ones. I'm not sure. Crots gave

738
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: away his daughter's hand in marriage for a trial period

739
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: of thirty days to see if his daughter liked it.

740
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: Okay, again, not the worst Crot's No.

741
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: I got no notes on Krates so far. He encouraged

742
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: his son to marry a sex worker he like, specifically

743
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: like took his son to brothel and it's like, this

744
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: is the kind of lady you got to marry.

745
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: That's so funny. It's like this culture in West Africa.

746
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting. I think it may have been Molly, I'll

747
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: double check that. But the more marriages you had as

748
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: a woman, the more valuable you are.

749
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: That's experienced.

750
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: Fuck. Yeah, So they have divorced parties.

751
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: That's awesome. Yeah, that fucking rules. I love how Like, hey,

752
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: you look back in the past and people were like, ah, yes,

753
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: the European norm was this. Everyone was monogamous like whatever.

754
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: Fucking gar Like when Caesar showed up in Britain for

755
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: the first time and he was writing about it, he

756
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: was like, and they share everything in common, including wives.

757
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: Wives will have a bunch of husbands. They're all married too.

758
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: This is righteous.

759
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, ah, yes, monogamy is a normal way

760
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: for everyone. Like I mean, obviously that's also normal and fine,

761
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 2: but like every culture is fucking different, right, Yeah. And

762
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: Diogenes himself dated a famous courtisan, not hired her, but

763
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: they were like lovers or whatever. He told his followers

764
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 2: once that they should go to Brothels to visit to

765
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: learn that quote there is no difference between what costs

766
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: money and what costs nothing. And they were against social values.

767
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: So I want to talk about the social values they

768
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 2: were against. This will be the most content warning part

769
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: of the episode. Probably I'm bracing myself.

770
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: Okay.

771
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: Marriage is a fundamental part of Greek society, or was

772
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: you marry to make children? It is a productive act, right,

773
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: You need children to have a good reputation to be

774
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: seen as wealthy in some Greek Again, when we're like

775
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: the Greeks did the following the citizens the rich fuckers.

776
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: In some Greek cities, there's legal discrimination against unmarried men

777
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: past a certain age. Marriage wasn't really monogamous for men.

778
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: It wasn't considered adultery if they slept with unmarried young

779
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: men or boys, sex workers, or enslaved people of whatever gender.

780
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: Adultery is when you slept with a citizen's wife or

781
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: an engaged woman, because women were being treated as property.

782
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was about to say.

783
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: If you were convicted of adultery, you would be covered

784
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 2: with ashes and then anally raped by a turnip. Jesus Christ,

785
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: and then everyone would make fun of you for being wide.

786
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: Asked, oh my god, oh my, that's.

787
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: A nightmare society.

788
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: That is an They did not teach us this in school.

789
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: They didn't talk about the turnips.

790
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: No, they taught me a lot about Plato, but I

791
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: don't remember the turnips.

792
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, weird, I can't imagine the god. So by teaching

793
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: free love, the Cynics were promoting freedom for women, because

794
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: men were already largely free as long as you didn't

795
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: steal someone's property. But Diogenes himself was fine with corporal

796
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: punishment for adulterers because they had given in to temptation,

797
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 2: the same as eating or drinking too much.

798
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: Okay, this guy settle down, yeah, he said, quote there

799
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: is nothing more vile than the adulterer who gives up

800
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: his soul in exchange for venal commodities.

801
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 2: He also specifically campaigned against pederasti, telling young men that

802
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 2: they were being taken advantage of, and he would mock

803
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 2: young men who were fine with it by saying that

804
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: they had gaping assholes or whatever. So fucking mixed bag.

805
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, free love, but I don't really understand the contours

806
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: of this free love.

807
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. And on that note, there's ads. They're right now

808
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 2: and we're back. So the Cynics got their name from

809
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: hanging out the dog again. I should have written the

810
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: Greek word here down and I didn't much like the

811
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: Stoics who descended from them. They got their name from

812
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: hanging out on a porch in the agora a stoa

813
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: in Greek, because I remember to write that one down.

814
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 2: Old philosophy sounds more fun when you're like, pick your team,

815
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: the dogs or the kids on the porch they have mascots. Yeah,

816
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: and the cynical philosophy. The main two parts of it

817
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 2: are living according to nature and frugality. They taught that

818
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: humans had fallen from grace, that we should look to

819
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: animals because they show us what's natural instead of what's

820
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: imposed on us by society. Diogenies believed aggressively in free speech.

821
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: He opposed Plato. Plato taught the kind of modern right

822
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: wing idea that you should love your friends and be

823
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: hostile to strangers. You know, the like the like right

824
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: wing man dude who's like, I'm amazing to my friends,

825
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: but you cross me, I'll murder everyone you've ever met,

826
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: you know.

827
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: I mean that's the basis of their entire thought process,

828
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: is like you have to be good only to your own,

829
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: to your family, to your friend, to your community. You

830
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: being in this country white.

831
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's like why Jade Vance was like trying

832
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: to be like, I'm Catholic, and the Catholic teaching is

833
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: that you should only be good to your people and

834
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: the yeah, all of the Catholic hierarchy is like, my dude,

835
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: the word Catholic means universal.

836
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: Right the popes, Like what do we talk about?

837
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the sole thing that this is built around is

838
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: a universal moral system.

839
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen this, and I don't want to

840
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: give them free like ad space here, But there are

841
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: all these books coming out now about how like Christians

842
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 1: have misunderstood empathy. Oh yeah, sick empathy. Like I don't,

843
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: we're not going to get into it, but it's a

844
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: thing now that they're trying to relitigate.

845
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so Diogenes was opposed to all of this idea.

846
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: He was opposed the idea that you should love your

847
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 2: friends and be hostile to strangers. Instead, you kind of

848
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: taught the opposite, you're kind to strangers and hostile to

849
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: your friends. Okay, I'm not really kidding why, Like I

850
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: feel like, okay, so I had a friend like this,

851
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: Who's the reason I know the word frenem me?

852
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: Okay.

853
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: He since died Rest in peace Aragorn, who was named

854
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 2: that it was his legal name. It's not just me

855
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 2: making a token reference. Yeah. He was an indigenous anarchist

856
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: who died a couple of years ago. And his whole

857
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: thing was we should promote a culture where we're ruthless

858
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: to each other. And I absolutely and vehemently disagreed. But

859
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 2: it was a trap because if I disagreed with him directly,

860
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 2: I was doing his thing.

861
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, it got you. Yeah, so maybe it's like

862
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: a whole like I critique you.

863
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: Because I love you exactly. Yeah, And he's like strangers,

864
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: why should they listen to you? But your friend like, hey,

865
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 2: that dress makes you look fat? Again? Shut the fuck up.

866
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: I know I know the size I am. Yeah, but

867
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: like I see it, I'll certainly take it over. Like

868
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: rampant zenophobia and racism and shit, you know, yeah, yeah,

869
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: and yeah. He stayed fit until his old age. He

870
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: was really into exercising and being fit as an old guy.

871
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: He didn't want to slow down. He said, quote, if

872
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: I were running a distance race, would I slowed down

873
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: when approaching the finishing line? Wouldn't I do better to

874
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: speed up?

875
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: Wow?

876
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: So he was like old dude fitness influencer deep. Yeah,

877
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: and one last aside about this man. He really liked

878
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: flipping people off. Did you know that that was a thing.

879
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know that they invented it back then.

880
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I fell down a rabbit hole. So I'm

881
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: gonna go down this rabbit hole. He wrote, quote, most

882
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: people go crazy over a finger. If you walk around

883
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: with your middle finger extended, a person thinks you're nuts.

884
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: But if you use your forefinger, it's no problem.

885
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: Okay. So he's just doing that all day, like just

886
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 1: trolling people with his finger.

887
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he's just flipping people off and be like, well,

888
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: if you have a problem with it, it's your fault.

889
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 2: It's just this finger. It's like being like, oh, words

890
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: are just words, Like right, Well, shouldn't matter whether I say, hey,

891
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: I love you or hey I hope your child dies

892
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 2: in a fiery act.

893
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 1: I mean that's you, that's you taking advantage of this situation.

894
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I didn't know. I'm gonna have to

895
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: go on a deep dive and like when did the

896
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:11,479
Speaker 1: middle finger?

897
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm going to talk about this going on. Unfortunately,

898
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: the main answers we don't know or the English language

899
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: sources that I read, don't know. Greece absolutely used it.

900
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: Rome absolutely used it, and so the insult goes back

901
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 2: at least that far. In ancient Greece, the middle finger

902
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 2: represents a dick, and the knuckles on either side represent testicles.

903
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: I did not know that.

904
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

905
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 2: Flipping someone off meant saying you're the receptive anal partner.

906
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so it's a homophobic insult. Uh huh.

907
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to cancel the middle finger here, I'm

908
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: just explaining its history.

909
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: We're reclaiming it.

910
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And Diogenes like giving people shit about

911
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: being the receptive anal partner because he's piece of shit,

912
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: I mean, a complicated man. In Rome, it was called

913
00:44:54,719 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: digitous impudicus, impudicus whatever, fuck room and the indecent finger,

914
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: and the German tribes gave the finger to the approaching

915
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: Roman army, as related by the one historian who I

916
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: seemed to quote every damn week on the show lately, Tacitus,

917
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: who's an old historian from back then. So it goes

918
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: back at least that far. Interestingly, it didn't reach the

919
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: US until the wave of Italian immigrants in the late

920
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: nineteenth century. I'm not joking that this is like I

921
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: I was like, I should cut this out of the script,

922
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: and that I was like, no, I'm keeping this part now.

923
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: No, it's super interesting.

924
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the wave of Italian immigrants in the late

925
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: nineteenth century brought over the middle finger. I think before

926
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 2: that they were probably using the English one, because the

927
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 2: English and French have their own insulting gestures. The French

928
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: is the broad d'ell noir, where you raise a fist

929
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: towards someone and grab your bicep, and the English have

930
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: the two finger salute where you kind of do a

931
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: backwards view for victory. And the origin of that one

932
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 2: seemed to be unknown. There's an apocryphal story. There's a

933
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: story that everyone says it's probably apocryphal, and I believe it,

934
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: and I'm going to give you my evidence is that

935
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: in the fifteenth century English archers during the Hundred Year

936
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 2: War against France, when they would win, they would often

937
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: win because they had really powerful archers.

938
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 3: Right.

939
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 2: Everyone else was I think moving acrossbows at this time,

940
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 2: but they're like, we're fucking good at fucking long bows.

941
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 2: So the English archers, basically the apocryphal story goes, if

942
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: they capture an English archer, they'll cut off his fingers

943
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: so he can't shoot anymore or whatever. Right, but like, no,

944
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 2: I'd probably just kill you, like I don't know whatever.

945
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 2: And so the English would be saying to the French, hey,

946
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: I still have these two fingers. I can still shoot

947
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: a long bow. I see my argument. One, there's no

948
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: evidence of this at all. Two, I'm going to make

949
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: a counter argument against it anyway to be a weird

950
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: medieval weaponry pedant. The English longbow or the war bow,

951
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: is the heaviest drawweight of any bow ever used in war.

952
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: The English the one thing you got fucking handed to them,

953
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: the heaviest drawweight bow. You hunt with a bow that's

954
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 2: like fifty or sixty pounds now, and historically the English

955
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,720
Speaker 2: war bow had a drawweight of at least seventy pounds.

956
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: Most of them were probably ninety to one hundred pounds.

957
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 2: There's some sources estimating they had a draw away to

958
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty pounds. These are like massively complicated,

959
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: hard to shoot bows. English long women were trained from

960
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: childhood to shoot these fucking things. Okay, that said, you

961
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 2: could still learn how to shoot one now, but you

962
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: have to put your entire body into it, use your

963
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: back muscles instead of your it's not the thing. It's

964
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 2: not two fingers. That's where I'm going with this. It's

965
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: actually three fingers. It's not your whole fist, but it's

966
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: like you put three fingers on it, and you like,

967
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: do you use your back muscles to open it with

968
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: like your leg forward and all this shit. I spent

969
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 2: way too much time watching YouTube videos of archery versus

970
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: medieval plate armor like a normal person. So that's not

971
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 2: where the fucking thing comes from. People don't knowra it

972
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: comes from. Some people are like, it's two dicks, and

973
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what, I'd buy it. Everything is dicks.

974
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: Everything is six. That's so funny. We do have a

975
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: version of it in my region.

976
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I don't.

977
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: It's also about anal receptivity like this.

978
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 2: Oh it's the shocker.

979
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: Great, it's really bad. I don't even and I don't

980
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: know where we got it. I'm just gonna blame the Romans, but.

981
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, who fucking knows. Every culture you go back far

982
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: enough and they're just like, ah, you like getting fucked.

983
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: It's all homophobia.

984
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 2: Press yeah, yeah, even in cultures that are famously gay,

985
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: just like, eh, you enjoy the thing that we all

986
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: enjoy like it. Yeah, you have an organ up there

987
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 2: that's specifically designed for pleasure.

988
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Okay, well good to know.

989
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Diagenes eventually he dies is gonna shock you.

990
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: We don't know how he died. The legend goes he

991
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 2: dies the same night as Alexander the Great, the night

992
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,439
Speaker 2: of June tenth to eleventh of three, twenty three BC.

993
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: But that wasn't an Olympics here, and some people think

994
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: he died on his way to the Olympics. So if so,

995
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 2: it wasn't he was like eighty one or ninety honestly,

996
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: like he was probably right about all that exercising as

997
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 2: you get older.

998
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I didn't think they lived that long back then.

999
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 2: So a lot of the ideas around like people dying

1000
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: young back in the day is because life spans were

1001
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: skewed by dying in childhood. Not just childbirth, but childhood.

1002
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 2: If you make it to adulthood, you're going to live

1003
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: about as long as a modern person.

1004
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: I see. Okay, makes sense.

1005
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: And so he might have died in Corinth or Athens

1006
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: or on his way to the Olympics or fucking anywhere else.

1007
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: He might have killed himself in one final act of

1008
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: self sufficiency. He might have died of food poisoning. He

1009
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 2: might have been teaching people you can eat octopus and died.

1010
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: He fucking knows. And he always insisted that there'd be

1011
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 2: no burial, that he'd just be thrown to the wilds.

1012
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: But he was buried regardless, maybe by the kids that

1013
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 2: he tutored when he was enslaved. That was like the

1014
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 2: rich family that was always looking out for him, and

1015
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: his later defenders worked really hard to smooth out his

1016
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: rough edges. Even modern scholarship wants us really badly to

1017
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: understand it. He might not have actually advocated incestor ca anibalism,

1018
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 2: and there's no proof he jerked off in public, but

1019
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. Sinope. After being conquered by Rome in

1020
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: seventy BCE, the city that he's from in modern day

1021
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: Turkey started minting coins with his face on it, And

1022
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: that's some fucking irony.

1023
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: Wow, he would have hated that counterfeitter on the coins.

1024
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, counterfeitter who hated money and used to run the

1025
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: coins of that fucking city. But he became kind of

1026
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: a mascot figure. There was merch of him in the

1027
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: ancient world. People would put pictures of him on everyday

1028
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: items like oil lamps, in large numbers, and it's an

1029
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: easy thing to do an iconic. You get a beardy

1030
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: guy with a jar, and usually there's a dog. Sometimes

1031
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 2: he has the lantern. People use that image a lot

1032
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 2: of the Looking for the Wise Man. People are really

1033
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: into this guy. I've had so many people ask me

1034
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: to do him, and then.

1035
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. He really resonated with folks back then.

1036
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. And as a final note, when Alexander the Great died,

1037
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: the classical era of Greece came crashing down and it

1038
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 2: went back to the warring city states, and this reduced

1039
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: the demand for slave labor and increased people's wages and

1040
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 2: generally moved society away from obsessive productivity. This didn't last

1041
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: second century BCE. Greece fell under Roman influence and the

1042
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: Roman approach to slavery became the norm. That's the story.

1043
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: A story of Diogenes by someone who feels complicated about him.

1044
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, he's complicated about himself, but what a

1045
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: fascinating figure. And you've almost convinced me to go read

1046
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: about Greek people in ancient history, which I avoided like

1047
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: religiously throughout my life.

1048
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: Honestly, like me too, And yeah, you're like, oh, everyone's

1049
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: fucking obsessed with this, but I mean, especially probably in

1050
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: your position, like being like, yeah, why do I got

1051
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: to read about these motherfuckers?

1052
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: But as an immigrant also, I was like in the

1053
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: American system, both public and then higher ed and I'd

1054
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: be like, why are we reading about Why do I

1055
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: have to read Plato this many times? Why do I

1056
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: have to? Like what do I need to know about it?

1057
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: Because of course we understand like Western civilization like claims

1058
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: these groups and claims this lineage.

1059
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, nightmare Town, nightmare Town.

1060
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: Which is so amazing for them, But also even that

1061
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: is like quite arbitrary, like totally.

1062
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thanks for listening to talking about diogenies. You

1063
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: got anything you want to plug?

1064
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah, as always if you want to listen to

1065
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: my episodes or it could happen here. I also do

1066
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: episodes for from the Periphery Media Collective, and I have

1067
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: a new book that I've edited coming out in a

1068
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: couple of months called The Handbook on Authoritarianism in the

1069
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: Arab world very different from what we well, not that different. Actually,

1070
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: we've been talking about being anti authoritarian in various ways.

1071
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: So if you want to look at modern manifestations, I'll

1072
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: check out the book Awesome.

1073
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: I have a thing to Plug. I forgot that I

1074
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: had a thing to plug last time. I have a

1075
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 2: short story coming out in January and it's set in

1076
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 2: the Daniel Kine world. I have three books out in

1077
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: the Daniel Kine world, and when we kickstarted the last book,

1078
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: I promised that we would do a short story that

1079
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: felt like it could fit in with that book. Where

1080
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 2: our heroes of the Daniel Kain series, the series that

1081
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: starts with the Lamleslaughter or the Lion, our heroes are

1082
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: sitting around a fire talking stories about people that they

1083
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,959
Speaker 2: used to know, the stories that their friends would have told,

1084
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 2: with demons and stuff. It's a fantasy, horror, punk, rock

1085
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: traveler series. And I promised I would write another short story,

1086
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: and I have finished it and it is going to

1087
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 2: be released as a zine. It's going to be free

1088
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 2: to anyone who back to go on Kickstarter, and it's

1089
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: going to be mailed out. The reason I'm pitching this

1090
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: is that if you want a print copy. The way

1091
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 2: to do it is if you subscribe to the publisher,

1092
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: which I'm part of, its collectively run publisher called Strangers

1093
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: in the Tangled Wilderness. If you subscribe at ten dollars

1094
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: a month on our Patreon, you get a zine mailed

1095
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: to you every month anywhere in the world, and January

1096
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 2: we send out a bigger package with more stuff in it.

1097
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: And if you sign up before December thirty first, you

1098
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: will get January's edition and will include this story, which

1099
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: is if You've liked the themes of the shit I've

1100
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,439
Speaker 2: been talking about for the past month or two where

1101
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with weird old cultures and magic and sacrifice

1102
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 2: and stuff. You might like it or you might hate it.

1103
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 2: I don't know. But that's the thing. That's the thing

1104
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 2: I've done.

1105
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: And the holidays are coming up.

1106
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, although you won't get it in time for the holidays,

1107
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 2: but you can sign someone up four second and then

1108
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 2: they will get a zena month for however long you

1109
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 2: keep them signed up for. Anyway, I will see you

1110
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: all next week, and my dog is barking and I'm

1111
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: going to go bye everyone.

1112
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: Bye.

1113
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 3: Cool people who did cool stuff is a production of

1114
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media.

1115
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website

1116
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the I

1117
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: Heard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.