WEBVTT - Giving Away Power with Matthew Barzun 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:23.996 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is a Deep Background, the 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.156 show where we explore the stories behind the stories in 0:00:27.156 --> 0:00:32.356 the news. I'm Noah Feldman. As regular listeners know, this 0:00:32.436 --> 0:00:35.956 year's central theme on Deep Background is power, and we've 0:00:35.996 --> 0:00:40.116 been approaching the question of power from numerous different angles. 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:43.276 This week, I want to feature a conversation with one 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:47.636 of my contemporaries, a college classmate actually, who has had 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:51.556 an intimate understanding of the structure of power long before 0:00:51.756 --> 0:00:55.036 chronologically most of us even had a whiff of getting 0:00:55.196 --> 0:00:58.236 anywhere near any of it in the real world. That 0:00:58.356 --> 0:01:02.796 person is Matthew Barzen, who served as US Ambassador to 0:01:02.916 --> 0:01:05.756 Sweden from two thousand and nine to two and eleven, 0:01:06.036 --> 0:01:09.116 and was then the US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, 0:01:09.316 --> 0:01:12.436 traditionally considered the jewel in the crown of US ambassadorships, 0:01:12.676 --> 0:01:17.436 for another five years thereafter. What's remarkable about his career 0:01:17.676 --> 0:01:20.076 is that he had the opportunity to do these jobs 0:01:20.116 --> 0:01:23.516 starting off when he was still in his thirties, rather 0:01:23.596 --> 0:01:26.876 than as the capstone to a long and distinguished diplomatic 0:01:26.916 --> 0:01:32.036 career the way many many ambassador positions operate. Since doing that, 0:01:32.116 --> 0:01:35.116 Matthew has decided to share some of his ideas around power, 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:37.836 and he did so in a new book called The 0:01:37.916 --> 0:01:41.716 Power of Giving Away Power, a book that offers a 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:46.396 different philosophical account of power, viewing the question very much 0:01:46.476 --> 0:01:49.916 more from how elites can broaden the base of power 0:01:50.276 --> 0:01:53.996 than from the countervailing perspective of how elites can constrain 0:01:54.076 --> 0:01:57.796 and control power. And in an era where populism is 0:01:57.836 --> 0:02:01.716 seen by many powerful people as a fundamental threat, Matthew 0:02:01.796 --> 0:02:06.916 instead sees the engagement of broad publics into the possibilities 0:02:06.956 --> 0:02:11.476 of deploying power as a necessary and positive development, even 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:14.556 as he too worries about the kind of populism that 0:02:14.596 --> 0:02:17.996 comes with bad values or bad beliefs. Having read his book, 0:02:18.076 --> 0:02:21.156 I thought it would provide a wonderful springboard for a 0:02:21.196 --> 0:02:25.076 different kind of conversation about power from somebody who knows 0:02:25.116 --> 0:02:27.996 how to deploy it, but who fundamentally believes that it 0:02:28.036 --> 0:02:35.996 needs to be reshaped. Matthew, thank you so much for 0:02:36.356 --> 0:02:39.876 joining me to talk about many things, among which is 0:02:40.436 --> 0:02:43.396 your terrific new book, The Power of Giving Away Power, 0:02:43.836 --> 0:02:46.916 with the subtitle how the Best Leaders Learn to Let Go, 0:02:47.116 --> 0:02:48.676 And as a lead in I want to ask you 0:02:48.716 --> 0:02:53.956 about your very unusual path to leadership experience at an 0:02:53.956 --> 0:02:56.836 extremely young age. You came out of the business world, 0:02:57.356 --> 0:03:00.356 and then when you were still in your thirties, you 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:04.116 became an ambassador, first to Sweden and then to the UK. 0:03:04.356 --> 0:03:09.316 So big ambassadorships. How did all that happen? Well, first 0:03:09.316 --> 0:03:11.876 of all, thanks for having me, Noah, I mean, I 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:14.836 didn't plan it. I was, as you mentioned, right out 0:03:14.876 --> 0:03:17.476 of college. I got involved in what was then the 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:22.276 very unglamorous world of internet companies. We didn't call them 0:03:22.316 --> 0:03:24.556 dot com companies, it was just the Internet. I did 0:03:24.556 --> 0:03:28.436 that for a while and then a distant cousin of 0:03:28.476 --> 0:03:32.236 mine announced that he was running for president, John Kerry. 0:03:32.276 --> 0:03:35.356 This is two thousand and three, and so I had 0:03:35.396 --> 0:03:38.316 interned for him when I was in college when he 0:03:38.356 --> 0:03:40.876 was a senator, and I said, how can I help? 0:03:40.996 --> 0:03:43.756 And what you and the listeners know is in our system. 0:03:43.796 --> 0:03:47.036 If you ask how you can help, ninety nine times 0:03:47.036 --> 0:03:49.996 out of one hundred, the answers help us raise money. 0:03:50.076 --> 0:03:54.676 And my heart sank. Because I was raised in New England. 0:03:54.956 --> 0:03:57.436 We have that in common, and I was raised to 0:03:57.476 --> 0:04:01.436 never talk about money, politics or religion, and I knew 0:04:01.436 --> 0:04:05.156 that fundraising would require at least two of those and 0:04:05.276 --> 0:04:08.156 probably three and I sucked at it, which is a 0:04:08.156 --> 0:04:11.516 longer story. Then I got better at it, and then 0:04:11.756 --> 0:04:14.236 Senator Obama asked me if I would help out on 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:16.636 his campaign, and so that's how I got into his world. 0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:20.196 And then when he won, he asked me if I 0:04:20.236 --> 0:04:23.116 would serve as ambassador, and candidly I thought, oh, that's 0:04:23.156 --> 0:04:26.516 what like old people do. It's just like a giant 0:04:26.516 --> 0:04:29.596 cocktail party, like, no thanks. But then I learned more 0:04:29.636 --> 0:04:31.956 about it. There's a great Republican friend of mine who 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:34.436 knew a lot about it, and I talked to him 0:04:34.476 --> 0:04:38.156 and he described what the role of diplomacy was all about, 0:04:38.236 --> 0:04:42.436 and then I got intrigued and said an enthusiastic yes. 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:47.636 So power is one of our central themes on Deep Background, 0:04:47.756 --> 0:04:50.756 especially this year, and your book is about power. But 0:04:50.836 --> 0:04:53.116 as you tell that story, it strikes me that you 0:04:53.196 --> 0:04:56.156 got into a position of genuine power to the extent 0:04:56.196 --> 0:04:58.396 ambassadorships are that. And we can talk a little more 0:04:58.636 --> 0:05:01.236 at some point about what kinds of power it's possible 0:05:01.236 --> 0:05:03.156 to wield in those jobs, because I think you did 0:05:03.196 --> 0:05:06.116 that quite interestingly and innovatively. But the way you got 0:05:06.156 --> 0:05:08.476 there was through a different form of power. Which, as 0:05:08.516 --> 0:05:12.196 you said, is the power of fundraising in our system. Yeah. 0:05:12.236 --> 0:05:14.636 So if you started off, as you said, not so 0:05:14.676 --> 0:05:17.956 good at it, not a naturally talented fundraiser, what was 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:21.356 the trick that is one way of deploying a certain 0:05:21.436 --> 0:05:24.876 kind of power in our system. Yeah. The reason I 0:05:24.956 --> 0:05:28.156 was so bad at it for quite a long time 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:31.636 was I sort of thought it was about me. So 0:05:31.676 --> 0:05:34.876 I would have these awkward usually emails in my case, 0:05:34.956 --> 0:05:37.916 of like, hey, sorry to bother you, I've set a 0:05:37.956 --> 0:05:40.076 goal of trying to raise X amount of money and 0:05:40.156 --> 0:05:43.596 would you help me? And anyway, that is not a 0:05:43.676 --> 0:05:46.036 very effective way of doing it because it puts yourself 0:05:46.076 --> 0:05:50.676 at the center of the discussion. And I was fortunate 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:53.756 enough to be seated next to this amazing woman named 0:05:53.836 --> 0:05:56.316 Lynn Twist, and she had just written a book back 0:05:56.316 --> 0:05:59.316 in two thousand and three called The Soul of Money, 0:05:59.476 --> 0:06:02.836 and she's a professional fundraiser. And I had raised hundreds 0:06:02.836 --> 0:06:05.436 of millions of dollars. So in desperation, I said, can 0:06:05.476 --> 0:06:07.076 you please, I mean, I will buy your book, I 0:06:07.116 --> 0:06:10.396 will read it, but I need help right now. And 0:06:10.476 --> 0:06:12.276 she said, sure, do you have a pen? And I did, 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:13.716 so I picked up a pen and I wrote it 0:06:13.716 --> 0:06:15.836 down on a napkin, and it was just three things. 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:21.556 Number One, money is like water. When it flows, it heals, 0:06:21.876 --> 0:06:27.356 and when it's stagnant, it kills. Number two, Only ask 0:06:27.436 --> 0:06:30.436 people for money who want to use their money for 0:06:30.516 --> 0:06:37.636 something greater than themselves. Number three ask everyone. And of 0:06:37.676 --> 0:06:39.876 course the trick there which I fell for, was, wait 0:06:39.876 --> 0:06:42.276 a minute, how can I ask everyone and only ask 0:06:42.276 --> 0:06:44.356 people who want to use money? And she basically said, look, 0:06:44.676 --> 0:06:47.156 everybody wants to use money for something greater than themselves. 0:06:47.156 --> 0:06:49.196 It may not be politics, or it may not be 0:06:49.236 --> 0:06:52.876 your political party or your candidate, but it's something. And 0:06:52.916 --> 0:06:57.636 so if you ask them to do that, you are 0:06:57.716 --> 0:07:00.676 helping them help their money flow. And so when they 0:07:00.676 --> 0:07:03.356 say no to you, they might say yes to something else, 0:07:03.396 --> 0:07:05.316 and so you're doing them a service. And that, for me, 0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:08.756 really clicked, and I thought, okay, because I got plenty 0:07:08.756 --> 0:07:11.636 of notes, but they didn't hurt, they weren't personally wounding. 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:15.636 They were just I felt like I was helping the 0:07:15.716 --> 0:07:18.716 money and the energy flow, and that for me, did 0:07:18.716 --> 0:07:21.516 it Does that make any sense? Yeah? It makes a 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:24.556 lot of sense. It leaves out the sales pitch part, 0:07:24.596 --> 0:07:26.716 and it makes me interested to hear whether in her 0:07:26.796 --> 0:07:29.836 viewer in your own experience, it doesn't matter so much 0:07:29.836 --> 0:07:33.396 whether you're selling John Kerry or selling in Barack Obama. 0:07:33.636 --> 0:07:35.636 As an outsider to fundraising, I would think it would 0:07:35.636 --> 0:07:38.476 make a big difference that one was more effective and 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:41.076 inspiring than the other, but maybe that's just naive totally. 0:07:41.076 --> 0:07:43.716 And fast forwarding when I started to work on the 0:07:43.956 --> 0:07:47.476 Obama's first campaign, and I was doing well, and we 0:07:47.596 --> 0:07:50.836 sort of pioneered the first low dollar fundraiser, and then 0:07:50.876 --> 0:07:53.276 that caught on and we took that out across the 0:07:53.276 --> 0:07:56.156 country as a model. I was asked with a bunch 0:07:56.196 --> 0:07:59.516 of other volunteers like me to teach fundraising training, which 0:07:59.516 --> 0:08:03.996 we pretentiously called Obama University. Subsequent presidents have given presidential 0:08:04.076 --> 0:08:08.596 name and university a strange name, so this had none 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:10.636 of that go on. But anyway, so we'd gather I 0:08:10.636 --> 0:08:12.796 think one hundred at a time volunteers from all around 0:08:12.836 --> 0:08:15.516 the country and if you ask them, which we did, 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:17.036 what do you want to get out of today? Is 0:08:17.076 --> 0:08:18.636 it was an all day session what do you want 0:08:18.636 --> 0:08:21.356 to get out of today? And everyone wanted the exact 0:08:21.396 --> 0:08:24.556 same thing, which is, please arm me with talking points 0:08:24.596 --> 0:08:28.236 to go back to Austin or Boston or wherever and 0:08:28.356 --> 0:08:31.596 win the argument. And the realization that I'd come to 0:08:31.676 --> 0:08:34.756 learn from Lynd Twist and from Obama himself is And 0:08:34.796 --> 0:08:36.356 we did it as a gimmick. We'd say, okay, a 0:08:36.436 --> 0:08:38.356 quick show of hands, how many people here like to 0:08:38.396 --> 0:08:43.436 lose an argument? And nobody ever raises their hand. So 0:08:43.556 --> 0:08:46.676 I don't think we're in the argument winning business. It's 0:08:46.716 --> 0:08:49.036 just sort of bad math. So you don't need to 0:08:49.076 --> 0:08:51.076 win an argument. You don't even have to really make 0:08:51.116 --> 0:08:53.636 a pitch if you just ask people what their hopes 0:08:53.676 --> 0:08:57.676 and fears are, really listen and connect it back to, 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:01.436 in this case, what Obama also is fearful of and 0:09:01.516 --> 0:09:06.236 hopeful for. That's pretty much just the job that's already 0:09:06.436 --> 0:09:09.676 I think a powerful takeaway to something that is not 0:09:09.716 --> 0:09:12.636 immediately available to the ordinary person who reads the news 0:09:12.636 --> 0:09:15.036 and reads about fundraising. I don't think we think about 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:17.276 what the back room looks like where people are trying 0:09:17.276 --> 0:09:19.436 to figure out the right way to do it. That's fascinating. 0:09:19.956 --> 0:09:22.356 So Lynch Twist gave you her book in three bullet 0:09:22.356 --> 0:09:24.956 points to put on a napkin. I'm curious to see 0:09:25.036 --> 0:09:28.116 what your napkin worthy. Three bullet points are for your 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:31.156 own book, the power of giving away power, because it's 0:09:31.196 --> 0:09:33.396 a quirky and fascinating book, and I use quirky in 0:09:33.396 --> 0:09:35.556 the most positive sense at the time. Thank you. What 0:09:35.596 --> 0:09:37.396 would you say if someone said what you know, I'm 0:09:37.436 --> 0:09:38.996 saying next you at a dinner party and I promise 0:09:39.036 --> 0:09:41.476 to buy your book? But what are the bullet points 0:09:41.476 --> 0:09:43.436 that I can write down right here? All right? This 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:45.836 is fun putting me on the spot. Noah, okay, I 0:09:45.916 --> 0:09:48.676 would This is inspired by another amazing woman who I 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:51.596 didn't get to meet because she died in nineteen thirty three, 0:09:52.316 --> 0:09:54.756 and she is the matron saint of my book. And 0:09:54.796 --> 0:09:57.836 her name is Mary Parker Follet eighteen sixty eight to 0:09:57.956 --> 0:10:02.076 nineteen thirty three. I encourage listeners to look her up 0:10:02.076 --> 0:10:04.476 on Wikipedia, which is how I found her. I had 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:06.556 a rule about I'm going to answer your question. I'm 0:10:06.556 --> 0:10:08.796 stalling for time now. You also have a terrific account 0:10:08.796 --> 0:10:11.076 about Wikipedia in the book, so you're read it's all 0:10:11.116 --> 0:10:13.276 the amanicy consistent. Well, but I had a rule in 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:15.276 the book as I was writing it and rewriting it 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:18.156 and rewriting it, and I had this little informal rule 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:20.676 up on my white board of only that could only 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:24.276 quote three dead white guys per chapter. I loved them. 0:10:24.316 --> 0:10:26.476 I mean, one day I'll be one. But I just 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:28.236 figured there ought to be a limit. So I had 0:10:28.316 --> 0:10:30.396 hit the limit in this particular chapter, and I wanted 0:10:30.396 --> 0:10:33.236 to quote Peter Drucker, who is I don't know the 0:10:33.236 --> 0:10:36.436 twentieth centuries probably pre eminent sort of the guru's guru 0:10:37.036 --> 0:10:40.716 as it relates to for profit, nonprofit government leadership and management. 0:10:41.236 --> 0:10:43.076 So he had the perfect thing and I wanted to quote, 0:10:43.116 --> 0:10:45.756 but I couldn't. So I start digging around in Wikipedia 0:10:45.836 --> 0:10:48.076 about Peter Drucker, and I learned that lo and behold, 0:10:48.116 --> 0:10:51.396 he had a guru, the guru's guru's guru, if you will, 0:10:51.956 --> 0:10:53.996 And her name was Mary Parker fall It, and she's 0:10:54.036 --> 0:10:58.356 this amazing story and she studied power and she studied leadership, 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:03.236 and I read everything she wrote and she rocked my world, 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:07.276 and so inspired by her, I will try to sum 0:11:07.276 --> 0:11:10.636 it up. And she basically said, all of our democracy 0:11:10.836 --> 0:11:13.716 and all of our business, some of our most intractable 0:11:13.756 --> 0:11:15.996 problems can actually are going to be dealt with one 0:11:16.036 --> 0:11:17.996 way or another. With a bunch of people sitting around 0:11:17.996 --> 0:11:20.676 a table with each other, and she said, there are 0:11:20.676 --> 0:11:23.036 four possible outcomes of a meeting, but only one of 0:11:23.076 --> 0:11:27.476 them is worthwhile. Now, Outcome number one is you go 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:30.036 in the meeting and you try to win. She's like, well, 0:11:30.076 --> 0:11:31.836 that's no good because someone else is going to lose. 0:11:32.596 --> 0:11:35.196 Option number two is you go in and you just acquiesce, 0:11:35.636 --> 0:11:38.236 like Joe is sort of a blowhard, just let him 0:11:38.276 --> 0:11:41.116 have his way. It's easier that way. That's no good 0:11:41.476 --> 0:11:46.156 because you haven't brought your contribution to the meeting. Outcome 0:11:46.236 --> 0:11:49.796 number three also bad, but very tempting, and we're usually 0:11:49.876 --> 0:11:53.676 told it's good is compromise, but her point was, no, look, 0:11:54.436 --> 0:11:58.876 if you compromise, that's just little mini victories and mini defeats. 0:11:59.476 --> 0:12:02.836 It's not something to be sought out. The only reason 0:12:02.916 --> 0:12:04.996 she thought you should get together for a meeting at 0:12:04.996 --> 0:12:07.076 all is if you could do the fourth thing, which 0:12:07.116 --> 0:12:11.196 was the only good outcome, which was creating something with 0:12:11.276 --> 0:12:14.836 your fellow meeting members. And it's a pretty high standard, 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:17.236 but we all been in those meetings where it really works. 0:12:18.036 --> 0:12:20.036 And she said, the magic that happens if you make 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:23.796 something together in a meeting, you are fully all of 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:26.356 you is in that thing. You've made it's in you. 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:30.316 You're not diminished for it, you're enriched by it, and 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:36.036 you haven't lost yourself in it. And so if we 0:12:36.716 --> 0:12:39.796 take Mary follows I think very wise points. I would 0:12:39.876 --> 0:12:41.356 if I had to sum up the whole book in 0:12:41.396 --> 0:12:47.036 a napkin worthy three bullet points, it would be expect 0:12:47.236 --> 0:12:52.316 to be needed, expect to need others, and expect to 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:57.436 be changed. And that final one's important because in today's 0:12:57.516 --> 0:12:59.676 lingo we say, and I think appropriately and I think 0:12:59.676 --> 0:13:02.236 Mary Follot would love that we say it, bring your 0:13:02.276 --> 0:13:06.236 truth to the meeting, absolutely, because no one else can 0:13:06.276 --> 0:13:09.516 bring your truth. So you have a deep obligation to 0:13:09.636 --> 0:13:14.916 bring your truth. But if that's all you do, that's 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:19.716 not enough. You need to through this process of co creation. 0:13:20.036 --> 0:13:22.596 You ought to leave that meeting a different person than 0:13:22.596 --> 0:13:26.716 you came in. That's the reciprocal obligation. If we take 0:13:26.796 --> 0:13:30.036 Mary follow at her word, that's the expect to be changed. Part. 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:35.636 That leads me to a question that I myself have 0:13:35.716 --> 0:13:37.476 been struggling with, and I think is in the backdrop 0:13:37.516 --> 0:13:39.596 to a lot of the debates about power that we've 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:41.636 been having on deep background and also in our society 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:45.956 and more broadly, it's very appealing to say with Mary 0:13:45.956 --> 0:13:49.196 Parker followed and with you, we should exercise what you 0:13:49.276 --> 0:13:53.436 quote her is calling power with, not power over. And 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:56.356 we shouldn't go into the meeting, whether it's a fundraising 0:13:56.396 --> 0:13:58.156 meeting or a business meeting or any kind of meeting, 0:13:58.316 --> 0:14:00.196 trying to win, because, as you said, if you win, 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:02.796 then somebody else loses. Those are very powerful insights. They 0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:06.116 seem right. Then you look at a country like the 0:14:06.196 --> 0:14:11.276 United States today, which is so found lyad divided and polarized, 0:14:11.636 --> 0:14:13.196 and you don't have to claim that it's unpresent. I 0:14:13.196 --> 0:14:16.636 actually don't think it is unprecedented, but it's bad in 0:14:16.836 --> 0:14:21.756 relative terms to the research past. And you say, well, 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:26.036 you know, leaders of the United States Democratic Party don't 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:28.236 just try to win by having fifty votes in the 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:32.356 Senate plus the vice president to break the tie. Work 0:14:32.436 --> 0:14:37.596 with right, let's exercise power with to which miss McConnell says, yeah, no, no, 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:40.636 thank you. I don't want to exercise power with you. 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:43.436 I mean Barack Obama tried to do this on occasion. 0:14:43.516 --> 0:14:45.756 Sometimes he got away with it, more often he didn't. 0:14:46.156 --> 0:14:49.156 I mean, I love the idea, and I do think 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:51.916 that under other circumstances. You know, Joe Biden would have 0:14:51.916 --> 0:14:54.076 been a politician who loved that idea and would have 0:14:54.076 --> 0:14:55.796 said yeah. You know, when he was in the Senate, 0:14:55.796 --> 0:14:58.716 he had a reputation for trying to be a centrist, 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:01.556 for be friends with people on both sides of the aisle. 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:05.156 It all sounds almost hopelessly romantic and naive seen from 0:15:05.196 --> 0:15:06.916 a distance of twenty or twenty five years, but that 0:15:06.996 --> 0:15:10.756 is how he operated through much of career. But it's 0:15:10.796 --> 0:15:13.716 just not doesn't seem to be doable now. So I 0:15:13.716 --> 0:15:16.156 guess I'm well in a place of saying philosophically, I 0:15:16.196 --> 0:15:18.836 totally agree with you. I mean, I love this idea. 0:15:18.916 --> 0:15:20.716 I love the idea that you know the key to 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:23.516 power is to not think that you have all the power. 0:15:23.636 --> 0:15:27.476 I just don't know in practical terms how one can 0:15:27.796 --> 0:15:30.236 I suderstand that. Look, I do think you've picked. I mean, 0:15:30.396 --> 0:15:36.156 our two party system in Washington right now looks pretty 0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:39.196 tough if you come at it through some of the 0:15:39.236 --> 0:15:42.796 other wonderful topics you've covered on this podcast. Take NC 0:15:42.876 --> 0:15:48.756 DOUBLEA athletics. Right We're almost no one involved thinks the 0:15:48.796 --> 0:15:52.596 current system is all that great. Right in Louisville, where 0:15:52.636 --> 0:15:54.076 we live. We don't have a pro team, so we're 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:58.156 obsessed with University of Kentucky, University of Louisville. We take 0:15:58.196 --> 0:15:59.956 it really seriously. If you've got all the fans in 0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:03.996 a room, they may split red blue cards, cats, but 0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:07.236 not on political terms. They love the games that are 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:09.516 played and they don't think the current thing is working 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:12.516 all that well. So you can imagine that group systematically 0:16:12.836 --> 0:16:16.396 trying to work through together finding a better way to 0:16:16.396 --> 0:16:19.236 do that. I mean, would you agree that seems we 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:23.876 aren't hopelessly in partisan trench warfare as it relates to 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:28.836 college athletics. Yeah, I think that it's it's definitely plausible 0:16:28.916 --> 0:16:32.436 that reasonable people, without getting super angry at each other, 0:16:32.516 --> 0:16:34.956 could try to work out a better way to do 0:16:35.156 --> 0:16:38.796 NCAA sports. Yeah, I'm willing to accept that. I'll accept 0:16:38.796 --> 0:16:41.236 the preface, thank you well, so then and so the 0:16:41.316 --> 0:16:45.596 act of working through it, I don't think anyone. Very 0:16:45.596 --> 0:16:48.116 many people don't think they have the right answer coming 0:16:48.116 --> 0:16:51.276 into that meeting or series of meetings. They are open 0:16:51.356 --> 0:16:53.556 to and they'll learn about the trade offs and like, oh, 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:56.276 I didn't realize if you just paid everyone, maybe women's 0:16:56.316 --> 0:16:58.276 athletics would lose all their money in three weeks, and 0:16:58.276 --> 0:17:01.116 oh gosh, no, I didn't. That undetended consequence isn't one 0:17:01.156 --> 0:17:03.676 I'm willing to live with. Right, and you start doing 0:17:03.676 --> 0:17:08.036 that kind of work, I think we're get tricky. And 0:17:08.236 --> 0:17:11.196 where I think the point of this book could be 0:17:11.236 --> 0:17:14.916 misunderstood is and I'll stay with sports for a second. 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:18.356 There's a bathroom somewhere on ninety five between New York 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:23.596 and Boston where in the bathroom someone had scribbled Yankees suck, 0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:27.156 and then someone scribbled it out and wrote Red Sox suck, 0:17:27.276 --> 0:17:29.316 and then someone wrote Yankee suck. Right, So there's like 0:17:30.276 --> 0:17:34.716 almost like eighteen inches worth of this scribbling back and forth. 0:17:35.236 --> 0:17:37.436 And then sust have been new Avan, Connecticut based on 0:17:37.516 --> 0:17:41.636 many factors, don't you think exactly. So then someone comes 0:17:41.636 --> 0:17:47.116 into the bathroom and circles the whole back and forth, 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:49.996 and then a big green sharpie writes and we all 0:17:50.076 --> 0:17:56.076 love baseball. Now you're kind of like, oh, like that 0:17:56.116 --> 0:17:59.796 feels good for like a second. But if if the 0:17:59.916 --> 0:18:03.476 people trying to find a way through these intractable problems 0:18:03.556 --> 0:18:06.356 sound like mister green sharpie, and I didn't go back 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:09.836 by the way but you know there's continued commentary on 0:18:09.876 --> 0:18:13.476 where mister Greensharpie could put his pen. Oh yes, it's 0:18:13.556 --> 0:18:16.596 just annoying. It's this sort of group hug, feel good 0:18:16.636 --> 0:18:18.596 crap that people will just be like, well, that's not 0:18:18.756 --> 0:18:21.636 a real life thing. So what I would say is 0:18:21.636 --> 0:18:25.316 somewhere between Red Sox sock Yankee sock sort of trench 0:18:25.316 --> 0:18:29.196 warfare going nowhere and hey, big group hug, we all 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:33.156 love baseball, there exists and in between space where I 0:18:33.196 --> 0:18:35.076 think we should put a lot of time and effort, 0:18:35.116 --> 0:18:38.596 and you are on this podcast, which is to stick 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:42.636 with baseball. Hey, should we eliminate the designated hitter in 0:18:42.676 --> 0:18:46.476 the American League? Now you can imagine Red Sox and 0:18:46.556 --> 0:18:48.996 Yankees fans being super shortsighted and being like, well, we 0:18:48.996 --> 0:18:51.076 have a really good DH now, so that sucks. But 0:18:51.156 --> 0:18:53.476 you could also imagine them being like, I am willing 0:18:53.516 --> 0:18:57.836 to have this discussion about a game we love, but 0:18:57.996 --> 0:19:01.716 bring all your differences in disagreements and argue and haggle 0:19:01.796 --> 0:19:06.596 about a game you love and the habits of doing that. 0:19:08.236 --> 0:19:10.516 I think we've lost and we need to get better 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:12.996 at and we could get better at them outside of 0:19:13.276 --> 0:19:17.036 high stakes Washington politics, because there's so many other things 0:19:17.036 --> 0:19:19.076 we could get to work at, and if we got 0:19:19.076 --> 0:19:22.156 good at doing those, maybe we could or our children 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:24.996 maybe could get better at solving some of these other ones. 0:19:25.276 --> 0:19:27.476 I want to ask you partly about how we lost 0:19:27.596 --> 0:19:29.476 that capacity, and I want to use as a concrete 0:19:29.476 --> 0:19:31.276 example something you're in a position to know a huge 0:19:31.276 --> 0:19:33.876 amount about, which is the years where you were US 0:19:33.916 --> 0:19:38.156 Ambassador to the United Kingdom were years that the Brexit 0:19:38.276 --> 0:19:42.236 specter gradually went from being a pie in the sky 0:19:42.356 --> 0:19:46.356 idea to something actually plausible, and then, ultimately, to a 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:48.716 lot of people's shock, it actually happened. And you had 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:52.076 the front row seat to all of that. So I 0:19:52.116 --> 0:19:55.236 wonder what you would reflect on in observing that whole 0:19:55.276 --> 0:19:57.596 process and in the course of your pretty significant amount 0:19:57.636 --> 0:20:00.276 of time there. I would argue that they that's what 0:20:00.356 --> 0:20:02.156 happened to them. They lost the ability to have the 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:05.076 green sharpie, and they collapsed into our red Sox versus 0:20:05.156 --> 0:20:09.996 Yankees or remain versus Leave. What do you think happened 0:20:09.996 --> 0:20:13.956 there at a deep cultural level. I think the honest 0:20:13.996 --> 0:20:19.076 and short answer is I don't know what I did learn, 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:21.196 As you said, being right there in the middle of 0:20:21.196 --> 0:20:24.476 all that, I remember why. I was at some fancy 0:20:24.516 --> 0:20:27.756 black tie dinner in the city of London. I was 0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:29.756 seated next to a gentleman. He was quick to tell 0:20:29.796 --> 0:20:31.636 me early that he had written something like a five 0:20:31.756 --> 0:20:36.316 hundred thousand pound check to the Remain campaign, right, so 0:20:36.396 --> 0:20:39.836 this is the group against Brexit, and I thought, okay, 0:20:39.956 --> 0:20:41.636 you know, good to know. And then we chatted about 0:20:41.676 --> 0:20:44.756 other things, and then I'm looking up at the in 0:20:44.796 --> 0:20:48.556 this big vaulted ceiling room. There was some flag I 0:20:48.556 --> 0:20:50.476 didn't really recognize. It may have been like the City 0:20:50.476 --> 0:20:54.076 of London flag or something. Then there was the English cross, 0:20:54.156 --> 0:20:56.516 the English flag, and then there was the Union jack 0:20:56.996 --> 0:20:59.116 and I just said to him offhandedly, I was like, hey, 0:20:59.916 --> 0:21:03.076 you know, twenty years from now, could you picture the 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:06.436 European flag as a fourth flag up there? And you 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:09.396 would think I said something incredibly insulting to him. And 0:21:09.396 --> 0:21:11.876 he turned to me and he's like, over my dead body, 0:21:11.996 --> 0:21:15.356 you know, gripping his butter knife. And so here's a 0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:18.916 guy funding Remain and he hates the idea of the 0:21:18.916 --> 0:21:22.196 European Union flag ever showing up in this place that 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:26.676 he loves. And I thought, oh, okay, that's weird. So 0:21:27.036 --> 0:21:31.516 there wasn't a whole lot of love for the European 0:21:31.596 --> 0:21:34.876 Union by the people who were That's not true of everybody. 0:21:34.956 --> 0:21:37.716 Some people really got into it, but I thought that 0:21:37.796 --> 0:21:41.676 was a window into Hey, that's a tough thing to prevail. 0:21:42.716 --> 0:21:45.476 So in that interpretation, which is a fascinating one, and 0:21:45.516 --> 0:21:47.836 I like stories about how you say something in England 0:21:47.836 --> 0:21:49.516 and then people look at you like you've insulted him, 0:21:49.516 --> 0:21:51.396 because that seemed to be every conversation I had an 0:21:51.556 --> 0:21:53.956 entire time that I lived in English, although to be fair, 0:21:54.076 --> 0:21:55.596 half the time they were also insulting me and they 0:21:55.636 --> 0:21:58.356