1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is a Deep Background, the 2 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:27,156 Speaker 1: show where we explore the stories behind the stories in 3 00:00:27,156 --> 00:00:32,356 Speaker 1: the news. I'm Noah Feldman. As regular listeners know, this 4 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:35,956 Speaker 1: year's central theme on Deep Background is power, and we've 5 00:00:35,996 --> 00:00:40,116 Speaker 1: been approaching the question of power from numerous different angles. 6 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:43,276 Speaker 1: This week, I want to feature a conversation with one 7 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:47,636 Speaker 1: of my contemporaries, a college classmate actually, who has had 8 00:00:47,676 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 1: an intimate understanding of the structure of power long before 9 00:00:51,756 --> 00:00:55,036 Speaker 1: chronologically most of us even had a whiff of getting 10 00:00:55,196 --> 00:00:58,236 Speaker 1: anywhere near any of it in the real world. That 11 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: person is Matthew Barzen, who served as US Ambassador to 12 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:05,756 Speaker 1: Sweden from two thousand and nine to two and eleven, 13 00:01:06,036 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: and was then the US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, 14 00:01:09,316 --> 00:01:12,436 Speaker 1: traditionally considered the jewel in the crown of US ambassadorships, 15 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:17,436 Speaker 1: for another five years thereafter. What's remarkable about his career 16 00:01:17,676 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: is that he had the opportunity to do these jobs 17 00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:23,516 Speaker 1: starting off when he was still in his thirties, rather 18 00:01:23,596 --> 00:01:26,876 Speaker 1: than as the capstone to a long and distinguished diplomatic 19 00:01:26,916 --> 00:01:32,036 Speaker 1: career the way many many ambassador positions operate. Since doing that, 20 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:35,116 Speaker 1: Matthew has decided to share some of his ideas around power, 21 00:01:35,276 --> 00:01:37,836 Speaker 1: and he did so in a new book called The 22 00:01:37,916 --> 00:01:41,716 Speaker 1: Power of Giving Away Power, a book that offers a 23 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:46,396 Speaker 1: different philosophical account of power, viewing the question very much 24 00:01:46,476 --> 00:01:49,916 Speaker 1: more from how elites can broaden the base of power 25 00:01:50,276 --> 00:01:53,996 Speaker 1: than from the countervailing perspective of how elites can constrain 26 00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:57,796 Speaker 1: and control power. And in an era where populism is 27 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 1: seen by many powerful people as a fundamental threat, Matthew 28 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:06,916 Speaker 1: instead sees the engagement of broad publics into the possibilities 29 00:02:06,956 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 1: of deploying power as a necessary and positive development, even 30 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,556 Speaker 1: as he too worries about the kind of populism that 31 00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:17,996 Speaker 1: comes with bad values or bad beliefs. Having read his book, 32 00:02:18,076 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: I thought it would provide a wonderful springboard for a 33 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:25,076 Speaker 1: different kind of conversation about power from somebody who knows 34 00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:27,996 Speaker 1: how to deploy it, but who fundamentally believes that it 35 00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:35,996 Speaker 1: needs to be reshaped. Matthew, thank you so much for 36 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 1: joining me to talk about many things, among which is 37 00:02:40,436 --> 00:02:43,396 Speaker 1: your terrific new book, The Power of Giving Away Power, 38 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 1: with the subtitle how the Best Leaders Learn to Let Go, 39 00:02:47,116 --> 00:02:48,676 Speaker 1: And as a lead in I want to ask you 40 00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:53,956 Speaker 1: about your very unusual path to leadership experience at an 41 00:02:53,956 --> 00:02:56,836 Speaker 1: extremely young age. You came out of the business world, 42 00:02:57,356 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 1: and then when you were still in your thirties, you 43 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:04,116 Speaker 1: became an ambassador, first to Sweden and then to the UK. 44 00:03:04,356 --> 00:03:09,316 Speaker 1: So big ambassadorships. How did all that happen? Well, first 45 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:11,876 Speaker 1: of all, thanks for having me, Noah, I mean, I 46 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:14,836 Speaker 1: didn't plan it. I was, as you mentioned, right out 47 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: of college. I got involved in what was then the 48 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:22,276 Speaker 1: very unglamorous world of internet companies. We didn't call them 49 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 1: dot com companies, it was just the Internet. I did 50 00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:28,436 Speaker 1: that for a while and then a distant cousin of 51 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:32,236 Speaker 1: mine announced that he was running for president, John Kerry. 52 00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:35,356 Speaker 1: This is two thousand and three, and so I had 53 00:03:35,396 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: interned for him when I was in college when he 54 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:40,876 Speaker 1: was a senator, and I said, how can I help? 55 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:43,756 Speaker 1: And what you and the listeners know is in our system. 56 00:03:43,796 --> 00:03:47,036 Speaker 1: If you ask how you can help, ninety nine times 57 00:03:47,036 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 1: out of one hundred, the answers help us raise money. 58 00:03:50,076 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 1: And my heart sank. Because I was raised in New England. 59 00:03:54,956 --> 00:03:57,436 Speaker 1: We have that in common, and I was raised to 60 00:03:57,476 --> 00:04:01,436 Speaker 1: never talk about money, politics or religion, and I knew 61 00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 1: that fundraising would require at least two of those and 62 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:08,156 Speaker 1: probably three and I sucked at it, which is a 63 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:11,516 Speaker 1: longer story. Then I got better at it, and then 64 00:04:11,756 --> 00:04:14,236 Speaker 1: Senator Obama asked me if I would help out on 65 00:04:14,316 --> 00:04:16,636 Speaker 1: his campaign, and so that's how I got into his world. 66 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 1: And then when he won, he asked me if I 67 00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 1: would serve as ambassador, and candidly I thought, oh, that's 68 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:26,516 Speaker 1: what like old people do. It's just like a giant 69 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:29,596 Speaker 1: cocktail party, like, no thanks. But then I learned more 70 00:04:29,636 --> 00:04:31,956 Speaker 1: about it. There's a great Republican friend of mine who 71 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 1: knew a lot about it, and I talked to him 72 00:04:34,476 --> 00:04:38,156 Speaker 1: and he described what the role of diplomacy was all about, 73 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:42,436 Speaker 1: and then I got intrigued and said an enthusiastic yes. 74 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:47,636 Speaker 1: So power is one of our central themes on Deep Background, 75 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:50,756 Speaker 1: especially this year, and your book is about power. But 76 00:04:50,836 --> 00:04:53,116 Speaker 1: as you tell that story, it strikes me that you 77 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:56,156 Speaker 1: got into a position of genuine power to the extent 78 00:04:56,196 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: ambassadorships are that. And we can talk a little more 79 00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:01,236 Speaker 1: at some point about what kinds of power it's possible 80 00:05:01,236 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 1: to wield in those jobs, because I think you did 81 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:06,116 Speaker 1: that quite interestingly and innovatively. But the way you got 82 00:05:06,156 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 1: there was through a different form of power. Which, as 83 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:12,196 Speaker 1: you said, is the power of fundraising in our system. Yeah. 84 00:05:12,236 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: So if you started off, as you said, not so 85 00:05:14,676 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: good at it, not a naturally talented fundraiser, what was 86 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 1: the trick that is one way of deploying a certain 87 00:05:21,436 --> 00:05:24,876 Speaker 1: kind of power in our system. Yeah. The reason I 88 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:28,156 Speaker 1: was so bad at it for quite a long time 89 00:05:29,436 --> 00:05:31,636 Speaker 1: was I sort of thought it was about me. So 90 00:05:31,676 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 1: I would have these awkward usually emails in my case, 91 00:05:34,956 --> 00:05:37,916 Speaker 1: of like, hey, sorry to bother you, I've set a 92 00:05:37,956 --> 00:05:40,076 Speaker 1: goal of trying to raise X amount of money and 93 00:05:40,156 --> 00:05:43,596 Speaker 1: would you help me? And anyway, that is not a 94 00:05:43,676 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: very effective way of doing it because it puts yourself 95 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 1: at the center of the discussion. And I was fortunate 96 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:53,756 Speaker 1: enough to be seated next to this amazing woman named 97 00:05:53,836 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 1: Lynn Twist, and she had just written a book back 98 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:59,316 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three called The Soul of Money, 99 00:05:59,476 --> 00:06:02,836 Speaker 1: and she's a professional fundraiser. And I had raised hundreds 100 00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars. So in desperation, I said, can 101 00:06:05,476 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 1: you please, I mean, I will buy your book, I 102 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: will read it, but I need help right now. And 103 00:06:10,476 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 1: she said, sure, do you have a pen? And I did, 104 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 1: so I picked up a pen and I wrote it 105 00:06:13,716 --> 00:06:15,836 Speaker 1: down on a napkin, and it was just three things. 106 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:21,556 Speaker 1: Number One, money is like water. When it flows, it heals, 107 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: and when it's stagnant, it kills. Number two, Only ask 108 00:06:27,436 --> 00:06:30,436 Speaker 1: people for money who want to use their money for 109 00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: something greater than themselves. Number three ask everyone. And of 110 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:39,876 Speaker 1: course the trick there which I fell for, was, wait 111 00:06:39,876 --> 00:06:42,276 Speaker 1: a minute, how can I ask everyone and only ask 112 00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 1: people who want to use money? And she basically said, look, 113 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 1: everybody wants to use money for something greater than themselves. 114 00:06:47,156 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 1: It may not be politics, or it may not be 115 00:06:49,236 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 1: your political party or your candidate, but it's something. And 116 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 1: so if you ask them to do that, you are 117 00:06:57,716 --> 00:07:00,676 Speaker 1: helping them help their money flow. And so when they 118 00:07:00,676 --> 00:07:03,356 Speaker 1: say no to you, they might say yes to something else, 119 00:07:03,396 --> 00:07:05,316 Speaker 1: and so you're doing them a service. And that, for me, 120 00:07:05,396 --> 00:07:08,756 Speaker 1: really clicked, and I thought, okay, because I got plenty 121 00:07:08,756 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 1: of notes, but they didn't hurt, they weren't personally wounding. 122 00:07:11,756 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 1: They were just I felt like I was helping the 123 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: money and the energy flow, and that for me, did 124 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: it Does that make any sense? Yeah? It makes a 125 00:07:21,556 --> 00:07:24,556 Speaker 1: lot of sense. It leaves out the sales pitch part, 126 00:07:24,596 --> 00:07:26,716 Speaker 1: and it makes me interested to hear whether in her 127 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:29,836 Speaker 1: viewer in your own experience, it doesn't matter so much 128 00:07:29,836 --> 00:07:33,396 Speaker 1: whether you're selling John Kerry or selling in Barack Obama. 129 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:35,636 Speaker 1: As an outsider to fundraising, I would think it would 130 00:07:35,636 --> 00:07:38,476 Speaker 1: make a big difference that one was more effective and 131 00:07:38,556 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: inspiring than the other, but maybe that's just naive totally. 132 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:43,716 Speaker 1: And fast forwarding when I started to work on the 133 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:47,476 Speaker 1: Obama's first campaign, and I was doing well, and we 134 00:07:47,596 --> 00:07:50,836 Speaker 1: sort of pioneered the first low dollar fundraiser, and then 135 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:53,276 Speaker 1: that caught on and we took that out across the 136 00:07:53,276 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 1: country as a model. I was asked with a bunch 137 00:07:56,196 --> 00:07:59,516 Speaker 1: of other volunteers like me to teach fundraising training, which 138 00:07:59,516 --> 00:08:03,996 Speaker 1: we pretentiously called Obama University. Subsequent presidents have given presidential 139 00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:08,596 Speaker 1: name and university a strange name, so this had none 140 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:10,636 Speaker 1: of that go on. But anyway, so we'd gather I 141 00:08:10,636 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 1: think one hundred at a time volunteers from all around 142 00:08:12,836 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 1: the country and if you ask them, which we did, 143 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 1: what do you want to get out of today? Is 144 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:18,636 Speaker 1: it was an all day session what do you want 145 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:21,356 Speaker 1: to get out of today? And everyone wanted the exact 146 00:08:21,396 --> 00:08:24,556 Speaker 1: same thing, which is, please arm me with talking points 147 00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: to go back to Austin or Boston or wherever and 148 00:08:28,356 --> 00:08:31,596 Speaker 1: win the argument. And the realization that I'd come to 149 00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: learn from Lynd Twist and from Obama himself is And 150 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 1: we did it as a gimmick. We'd say, okay, a 151 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:38,356 Speaker 1: quick show of hands, how many people here like to 152 00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:43,436 Speaker 1: lose an argument? And nobody ever raises their hand. So 153 00:08:43,556 --> 00:08:46,676 Speaker 1: I don't think we're in the argument winning business. It's 154 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:49,036 Speaker 1: just sort of bad math. So you don't need to 155 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:51,076 Speaker 1: win an argument. You don't even have to really make 156 00:08:51,116 --> 00:08:53,636 Speaker 1: a pitch if you just ask people what their hopes 157 00:08:53,676 --> 00:08:57,676 Speaker 1: and fears are, really listen and connect it back to, 158 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:01,436 Speaker 1: in this case, what Obama also is fearful of and 159 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:06,236 Speaker 1: hopeful for. That's pretty much just the job that's already 160 00:09:06,436 --> 00:09:09,676 Speaker 1: I think a powerful takeaway to something that is not 161 00:09:09,716 --> 00:09:12,636 Speaker 1: immediately available to the ordinary person who reads the news 162 00:09:12,636 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 1: and reads about fundraising. I don't think we think about 163 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:17,276 Speaker 1: what the back room looks like where people are trying 164 00:09:17,276 --> 00:09:19,436 Speaker 1: to figure out the right way to do it. That's fascinating. 165 00:09:19,956 --> 00:09:22,356 Speaker 1: So Lynch Twist gave you her book in three bullet 166 00:09:22,356 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 1: points to put on a napkin. I'm curious to see 167 00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:28,116 Speaker 1: what your napkin worthy. Three bullet points are for your 168 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:31,156 Speaker 1: own book, the power of giving away power, because it's 169 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 1: a quirky and fascinating book, and I use quirky in 170 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:35,556 Speaker 1: the most positive sense at the time. Thank you. What 171 00:09:35,596 --> 00:09:37,396 Speaker 1: would you say if someone said what you know, I'm 172 00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 1: saying next you at a dinner party and I promise 173 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:41,476 Speaker 1: to buy your book? But what are the bullet points 174 00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:43,436 Speaker 1: that I can write down right here? All right? This 175 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:45,836 Speaker 1: is fun putting me on the spot. Noah, okay, I 176 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:48,676 Speaker 1: would This is inspired by another amazing woman who I 177 00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 1: didn't get to meet because she died in nineteen thirty three, 178 00:09:52,316 --> 00:09:54,756 Speaker 1: and she is the matron saint of my book. And 179 00:09:54,796 --> 00:09:57,836 Speaker 1: her name is Mary Parker Follet eighteen sixty eight to 180 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:02,076 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three. I encourage listeners to look her up 181 00:10:02,076 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia, which is how I found her. I had 182 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:06,556 Speaker 1: a rule about I'm going to answer your question. I'm 183 00:10:06,556 --> 00:10:08,796 Speaker 1: stalling for time now. You also have a terrific account 184 00:10:08,796 --> 00:10:11,076 Speaker 1: about Wikipedia in the book, so you're read it's all 185 00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 1: the amanicy consistent. Well, but I had a rule in 186 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:15,276 Speaker 1: the book as I was writing it and rewriting it 187 00:10:15,276 --> 00:10:18,156 Speaker 1: and rewriting it, and I had this little informal rule 188 00:10:18,236 --> 00:10:20,676 Speaker 1: up on my white board of only that could only 189 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:24,276 Speaker 1: quote three dead white guys per chapter. I loved them. 190 00:10:24,316 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 1: I mean, one day I'll be one. But I just 191 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 1: figured there ought to be a limit. So I had 192 00:10:28,316 --> 00:10:30,396 Speaker 1: hit the limit in this particular chapter, and I wanted 193 00:10:30,396 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: to quote Peter Drucker, who is I don't know the 194 00:10:33,236 --> 00:10:36,436 Speaker 1: twentieth centuries probably pre eminent sort of the guru's guru 195 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:40,716 Speaker 1: as it relates to for profit, nonprofit government leadership and management. 196 00:10:41,236 --> 00:10:43,076 Speaker 1: So he had the perfect thing and I wanted to quote, 197 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: but I couldn't. So I start digging around in Wikipedia 198 00:10:45,836 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 1: about Peter Drucker, and I learned that lo and behold, 199 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 1: he had a guru, the guru's guru's guru, if you will, 200 00:10:51,956 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 1: And her name was Mary Parker fall It, and she's 201 00:10:54,036 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 1: this amazing story and she studied power and she studied leadership, 202 00:10:59,236 --> 00:11:03,236 Speaker 1: and I read everything she wrote and she rocked my world, 203 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 1: and so inspired by her, I will try to sum 204 00:11:07,276 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 1: it up. And she basically said, all of our democracy 205 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 1: and all of our business, some of our most intractable 206 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:15,996 Speaker 1: problems can actually are going to be dealt with one 207 00:11:16,036 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 1: way or another. With a bunch of people sitting around 208 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:20,676 Speaker 1: a table with each other, and she said, there are 209 00:11:20,676 --> 00:11:23,036 Speaker 1: four possible outcomes of a meeting, but only one of 210 00:11:23,076 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 1: them is worthwhile. Now, Outcome number one is you go 211 00:11:27,556 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 1: in the meeting and you try to win. She's like, well, 212 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:31,836 Speaker 1: that's no good because someone else is going to lose. 213 00:11:32,596 --> 00:11:35,196 Speaker 1: Option number two is you go in and you just acquiesce, 214 00:11:35,636 --> 00:11:38,236 Speaker 1: like Joe is sort of a blowhard, just let him 215 00:11:38,276 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 1: have his way. It's easier that way. That's no good 216 00:11:41,476 --> 00:11:46,156 Speaker 1: because you haven't brought your contribution to the meeting. Outcome 217 00:11:46,236 --> 00:11:49,796 Speaker 1: number three also bad, but very tempting, and we're usually 218 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: told it's good is compromise, but her point was, no, look, 219 00:11:54,436 --> 00:11:58,876 Speaker 1: if you compromise, that's just little mini victories and mini defeats. 220 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 1: It's not something to be sought out. The only reason 221 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:04,996 Speaker 1: she thought you should get together for a meeting at 222 00:12:04,996 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 1: all is if you could do the fourth thing, which 223 00:12:07,116 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: was the only good outcome, which was creating something with 224 00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 1: your fellow meeting members. And it's a pretty high standard, 225 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 1: but we all been in those meetings where it really works. 226 00:12:18,036 --> 00:12:20,036 Speaker 1: And she said, the magic that happens if you make 227 00:12:20,116 --> 00:12:23,796 Speaker 1: something together in a meeting, you are fully all of 228 00:12:23,836 --> 00:12:26,356 Speaker 1: you is in that thing. You've made it's in you. 229 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,316 Speaker 1: You're not diminished for it, you're enriched by it, and 230 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:36,036 Speaker 1: you haven't lost yourself in it. And so if we 231 00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 1: take Mary follows I think very wise points. I would 232 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:41,356 Speaker 1: if I had to sum up the whole book in 233 00:12:41,396 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: a napkin worthy three bullet points, it would be expect 234 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:52,316 Speaker 1: to be needed, expect to need others, and expect to 235 00:12:52,356 --> 00:12:57,436 Speaker 1: be changed. And that final one's important because in today's 236 00:12:57,516 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 1: lingo we say, and I think appropriately and I think 237 00:12:59,676 --> 00:13:02,236 Speaker 1: Mary Follot would love that we say it, bring your 238 00:13:02,276 --> 00:13:06,236 Speaker 1: truth to the meeting, absolutely, because no one else can 239 00:13:06,276 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: bring your truth. So you have a deep obligation to 240 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 1: bring your truth. But if that's all you do, that's 241 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:19,716 Speaker 1: not enough. You need to through this process of co creation. 242 00:13:20,036 --> 00:13:22,596 Speaker 1: You ought to leave that meeting a different person than 243 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: you came in. That's the reciprocal obligation. If we take 244 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:30,036 Speaker 1: Mary follow at her word, that's the expect to be changed. Part. 245 00:13:32,436 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 1: That leads me to a question that I myself have 246 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 1: been struggling with, and I think is in the backdrop 247 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:39,596 Speaker 1: to a lot of the debates about power that we've 248 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 1: been having on deep background and also in our society 249 00:13:41,636 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 1: and more broadly, it's very appealing to say with Mary 250 00:13:45,956 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 1: Parker followed and with you, we should exercise what you 251 00:13:49,276 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 1: quote her is calling power with, not power over. And 252 00:13:53,516 --> 00:13:56,356 Speaker 1: we shouldn't go into the meeting, whether it's a fundraising 253 00:13:56,396 --> 00:13:58,156 Speaker 1: meeting or a business meeting or any kind of meeting, 254 00:13:58,316 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 1: trying to win, because, as you said, if you win, 255 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:02,796 Speaker 1: then somebody else loses. Those are very powerful insights. They 256 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 1: seem right. Then you look at a country like the 257 00:14:06,196 --> 00:14:11,276 Speaker 1: United States today, which is so found lyad divided and polarized, 258 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:13,196 Speaker 1: and you don't have to claim that it's unpresent. I 259 00:14:13,196 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 1: actually don't think it is unprecedented, but it's bad in 260 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: relative terms to the research past. And you say, well, 261 00:14:22,036 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 1: you know, leaders of the United States Democratic Party don't 262 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:28,236 Speaker 1: just try to win by having fifty votes in the 263 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:32,356 Speaker 1: Senate plus the vice president to break the tie. Work 264 00:14:32,436 --> 00:14:37,596 Speaker 1: with right, let's exercise power with to which miss McConnell says, yeah, no, no, 265 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:40,636 Speaker 1: thank you. I don't want to exercise power with you. 266 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:43,436 Speaker 1: I mean Barack Obama tried to do this on occasion. 267 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: Sometimes he got away with it, more often he didn't. 268 00:14:46,156 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 1: I mean, I love the idea, and I do think 269 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:51,916 Speaker 1: that under other circumstances. You know, Joe Biden would have 270 00:14:51,916 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 1: been a politician who loved that idea and would have 271 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:55,796 Speaker 1: said yeah. You know, when he was in the Senate, 272 00:14:55,796 --> 00:14:58,716 Speaker 1: he had a reputation for trying to be a centrist, 273 00:14:58,836 --> 00:15:01,556 Speaker 1: for be friends with people on both sides of the aisle. 274 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:05,156 Speaker 1: It all sounds almost hopelessly romantic and naive seen from 275 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:06,916 Speaker 1: a distance of twenty or twenty five years, but that 276 00:15:06,996 --> 00:15:10,756 Speaker 1: is how he operated through much of career. But it's 277 00:15:10,796 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 1: just not doesn't seem to be doable now. So I 278 00:15:13,716 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 1: guess I'm well in a place of saying philosophically, I 279 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: totally agree with you. I mean, I love this idea. 280 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:20,716 Speaker 1: I love the idea that you know the key to 281 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:23,516 Speaker 1: power is to not think that you have all the power. 282 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:27,476 Speaker 1: I just don't know in practical terms how one can 283 00:15:27,796 --> 00:15:30,236 Speaker 1: I suderstand that. Look, I do think you've picked. I mean, 284 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:36,156 Speaker 1: our two party system in Washington right now looks pretty 285 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:39,196 Speaker 1: tough if you come at it through some of the 286 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:42,796 Speaker 1: other wonderful topics you've covered on this podcast. Take NC 287 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:48,756 Speaker 1: DOUBLEA athletics. Right We're almost no one involved thinks the 288 00:15:48,796 --> 00:15:52,596 Speaker 1: current system is all that great. Right in Louisville, where 289 00:15:52,636 --> 00:15:54,076 Speaker 1: we live. We don't have a pro team, so we're 290 00:15:54,116 --> 00:15:58,156 Speaker 1: obsessed with University of Kentucky, University of Louisville. We take 291 00:15:58,196 --> 00:15:59,956 Speaker 1: it really seriously. If you've got all the fans in 292 00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 1: a room, they may split red blue cards, cats, but 293 00:16:04,116 --> 00:16:07,236 Speaker 1: not on political terms. They love the games that are 294 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 1: played and they don't think the current thing is working 295 00:16:09,556 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 1: all that well. So you can imagine that group systematically 296 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 1: trying to work through together finding a better way to 297 00:16:16,396 --> 00:16:19,236 Speaker 1: do that. I mean, would you agree that seems we 298 00:16:19,276 --> 00:16:23,876 Speaker 1: aren't hopelessly in partisan trench warfare as it relates to 299 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: college athletics. Yeah, I think that it's it's definitely plausible 300 00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 1: that reasonable people, without getting super angry at each other, 301 00:16:32,516 --> 00:16:34,956 Speaker 1: could try to work out a better way to do 302 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: NCAA sports. Yeah, I'm willing to accept that. I'll accept 303 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 1: the preface, thank you well, so then and so the 304 00:16:41,316 --> 00:16:45,596 Speaker 1: act of working through it, I don't think anyone. Very 305 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:48,116 Speaker 1: many people don't think they have the right answer coming 306 00:16:48,116 --> 00:16:51,276 Speaker 1: into that meeting or series of meetings. They are open 307 00:16:51,356 --> 00:16:53,556 Speaker 1: to and they'll learn about the trade offs and like, oh, 308 00:16:53,596 --> 00:16:56,276 Speaker 1: I didn't realize if you just paid everyone, maybe women's 309 00:16:56,316 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 1: athletics would lose all their money in three weeks, and 310 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 1: oh gosh, no, I didn't. That undetended consequence isn't one 311 00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:03,676 Speaker 1: I'm willing to live with. Right, and you start doing 312 00:17:03,676 --> 00:17:08,036 Speaker 1: that kind of work, I think we're get tricky. And 313 00:17:08,236 --> 00:17:11,196 Speaker 1: where I think the point of this book could be 314 00:17:11,236 --> 00:17:14,916 Speaker 1: misunderstood is and I'll stay with sports for a second. 315 00:17:14,956 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 1: There's a bathroom somewhere on ninety five between New York 316 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:23,596 Speaker 1: and Boston where in the bathroom someone had scribbled Yankees suck, 317 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 1: and then someone scribbled it out and wrote Red Sox suck, 318 00:17:27,276 --> 00:17:29,316 Speaker 1: and then someone wrote Yankee suck. Right, So there's like 319 00:17:30,276 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 1: almost like eighteen inches worth of this scribbling back and forth. 320 00:17:35,236 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 1: And then sust have been new Avan, Connecticut based on 321 00:17:37,516 --> 00:17:41,636 Speaker 1: many factors, don't you think exactly. So then someone comes 322 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:47,116 Speaker 1: into the bathroom and circles the whole back and forth, 323 00:17:47,276 --> 00:17:49,996 Speaker 1: and then a big green sharpie writes and we all 324 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: love baseball. Now you're kind of like, oh, like that 325 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,796 Speaker 1: feels good for like a second. But if if the 326 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:03,476 Speaker 1: people trying to find a way through these intractable problems 327 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 1: sound like mister green sharpie, and I didn't go back 328 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:09,836 Speaker 1: by the way but you know there's continued commentary on 329 00:18:09,876 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 1: where mister Greensharpie could put his pen. Oh yes, it's 330 00:18:13,556 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 1: just annoying. It's this sort of group hug, feel good 331 00:18:16,636 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: crap that people will just be like, well, that's not 332 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:21,636 Speaker 1: a real life thing. So what I would say is 333 00:18:21,636 --> 00:18:25,316 Speaker 1: somewhere between Red Sox sock Yankee sock sort of trench 334 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:29,196 Speaker 1: warfare going nowhere and hey, big group hug, we all 335 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 1: love baseball, there exists and in between space where I 336 00:18:33,196 --> 00:18:35,076 Speaker 1: think we should put a lot of time and effort, 337 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:38,596 Speaker 1: and you are on this podcast, which is to stick 338 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:42,636 Speaker 1: with baseball. Hey, should we eliminate the designated hitter in 339 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 1: the American League? Now you can imagine Red Sox and 340 00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:48,996 Speaker 1: Yankees fans being super shortsighted and being like, well, we 341 00:18:48,996 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 1: have a really good DH now, so that sucks. But 342 00:18:51,156 --> 00:18:53,476 Speaker 1: you could also imagine them being like, I am willing 343 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: to have this discussion about a game we love, but 344 00:18:57,996 --> 00:19:01,716 Speaker 1: bring all your differences in disagreements and argue and haggle 345 00:19:01,796 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 1: about a game you love and the habits of doing that. 346 00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:10,516 Speaker 1: I think we've lost and we need to get better 347 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:12,996 Speaker 1: at and we could get better at them outside of 348 00:19:13,276 --> 00:19:17,036 Speaker 1: high stakes Washington politics, because there's so many other things 349 00:19:17,036 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: we could get to work at, and if we got 350 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: good at doing those, maybe we could or our children 351 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:24,996 Speaker 1: maybe could get better at solving some of these other ones. 352 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:27,476 Speaker 1: I want to ask you partly about how we lost 353 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 1: that capacity, and I want to use as a concrete 354 00:19:29,476 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: example something you're in a position to know a huge 355 00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:33,876 Speaker 1: amount about, which is the years where you were US 356 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:38,156 Speaker 1: Ambassador to the United Kingdom were years that the Brexit 357 00:19:38,276 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: specter gradually went from being a pie in the sky 358 00:19:42,356 --> 00:19:46,356 Speaker 1: idea to something actually plausible, and then, ultimately, to a 359 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:48,716 Speaker 1: lot of people's shock, it actually happened. And you had 360 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:52,076 Speaker 1: the front row seat to all of that. So I 361 00:19:52,116 --> 00:19:55,236 Speaker 1: wonder what you would reflect on in observing that whole 362 00:19:55,276 --> 00:19:57,596 Speaker 1: process and in the course of your pretty significant amount 363 00:19:57,636 --> 00:20:00,276 Speaker 1: of time there. I would argue that they that's what 364 00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 1: happened to them. They lost the ability to have the 365 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:05,076 Speaker 1: green sharpie, and they collapsed into our red Sox versus 366 00:20:05,156 --> 00:20:09,996 Speaker 1: Yankees or remain versus Leave. What do you think happened 367 00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:13,956 Speaker 1: there at a deep cultural level. I think the honest 368 00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:19,076 Speaker 1: and short answer is I don't know what I did learn, 369 00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 1: As you said, being right there in the middle of 370 00:20:21,196 --> 00:20:24,476 Speaker 1: all that, I remember why. I was at some fancy 371 00:20:24,516 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 1: black tie dinner in the city of London. I was 372 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 1: seated next to a gentleman. He was quick to tell 373 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 1: me early that he had written something like a five 374 00:20:31,756 --> 00:20:36,316 Speaker 1: hundred thousand pound check to the Remain campaign, right, so 375 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:39,836 Speaker 1: this is the group against Brexit, and I thought, okay, 376 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:41,636 Speaker 1: you know, good to know. And then we chatted about 377 00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,756 Speaker 1: other things, and then I'm looking up at the in 378 00:20:44,796 --> 00:20:48,556 Speaker 1: this big vaulted ceiling room. There was some flag I 379 00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:50,476 Speaker 1: didn't really recognize. It may have been like the City 380 00:20:50,476 --> 00:20:54,076 Speaker 1: of London flag or something. Then there was the English cross, 381 00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:56,516 Speaker 1: the English flag, and then there was the Union jack 382 00:20:56,996 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 1: and I just said to him offhandedly, I was like, hey, 383 00:20:59,916 --> 00:21:03,076 Speaker 1: you know, twenty years from now, could you picture the 384 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 1: European flag as a fourth flag up there? And you 385 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:09,396 Speaker 1: would think I said something incredibly insulting to him. And 386 00:21:09,396 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: he turned to me and he's like, over my dead body, 387 00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:15,356 Speaker 1: you know, gripping his butter knife. And so here's a 388 00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 1: guy funding Remain and he hates the idea of the 389 00:21:18,916 --> 00:21:22,196 Speaker 1: European Union flag ever showing up in this place that 390 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:26,676 Speaker 1: he loves. And I thought, oh, okay, that's weird. So 391 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot of love for the European 392 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:34,876 Speaker 1: Union by the people who were That's not true of everybody. 393 00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:37,716 Speaker 1: Some people really got into it, but I thought that 394 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 1: was a window into Hey, that's a tough thing to prevail. 395 00:21:42,716 --> 00:21:45,476 Speaker 1: So in that interpretation, which is a fascinating one, and 396 00:21:45,516 --> 00:21:47,836 Speaker 1: I like stories about how you say something in England 397 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 1: and then people look at you like you've insulted him, 398 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 1: because that seemed to be every conversation I had an 399 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 1: entire time that I lived in English, although to be fair, 400 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:55,596 Speaker 1: half the time they were also insulting me and they 401 00:21:55,636 --> 00:21:58,356 Speaker 1: didn't know they were doing it. But so I love 402 00:21:58,396 --> 00:22:01,076 Speaker 1: the story. It sounds like in your interpretation, you're suggesting 403 00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 1: that the deep national sentiment that people feel in England 404 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,836 Speaker 1: and maybe in Britain as well more broadly, is just 405 00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: so powerful that even people who rationally had an argument 406 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:15,636 Speaker 1: for remaining in the European Union at some deep level 407 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: didn't care about it as much as the people who 408 00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:20,916 Speaker 1: really wanted out. Well that that still begs the question, yeah, 409 00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 1: could go ahead. So the rough runt of the way 410 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 1: it was worded was just sort of thumbs up, thumbs 411 00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,836 Speaker 1: down in out it was a binary choice. If you 412 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: gave people, you know, when you do HR surveys, it's 413 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: like strongly agree, somewhat agree, neutral, There's a five check 414 00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:39,636 Speaker 1: marks you could do across the spectrum. My sense is 415 00:22:39,676 --> 00:22:42,076 Speaker 1: if you had asked, I have nothing to back this up. 416 00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 1: This is a hunch. Hey, do you want to be 417 00:22:44,156 --> 00:22:47,276 Speaker 1: totally fully in the EU like France and Germany are? 418 00:22:47,436 --> 00:22:50,836 Speaker 1: That's one out of five? Do you want totally out? 419 00:22:50,916 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 1: I'd never want anything to do with this thing is 420 00:22:52,756 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 1: a five. I think you would have ended up with 421 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: people sort of I don't know in the two and 422 00:22:57,556 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 1: a half to three kind of like I want to 423 00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:01,996 Speaker 1: be in, but I don't want to be in their currency, 424 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:03,916 Speaker 1: and I don't want to have the same customs union. Oh, 425 00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:07,036 Speaker 1: which by the way, is where the UK was as 426 00:23:07,076 --> 00:23:11,156 Speaker 1: it relates to the European Union beforehand. But a lot 427 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 1: of that subtlety gets lost in out. Yes, no kind 428 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:20,596 Speaker 1: of world, which this mindset, which I call the pyramid mindset, 429 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:22,756 Speaker 1: which I think is really I mean, the obvious way 430 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:25,396 Speaker 1: is sort of a top down view of the world, 431 00:23:25,596 --> 00:23:27,156 Speaker 1: but by the way, a bottom up view of the 432 00:23:27,156 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 1: world is the exact same shape, and I would argue no, better. 433 00:23:30,836 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 1: It's the same pyramid shape where we get trapped into 434 00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:37,636 Speaker 1: thinking it's wind lose up, down in out, which is 435 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:40,916 Speaker 1: how that referend of battle played out. And there's an 436 00:23:41,556 --> 00:23:44,276 Speaker 1: alternative way of looking at ourselves in the world around 437 00:23:44,396 --> 00:23:47,756 Speaker 1: us that isn't a pyramid. And these amazing leaders we 438 00:23:47,876 --> 00:23:49,956 Speaker 1: talked about some of them, there are lots of others, 439 00:23:49,956 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 1: many of whom we've never heard of, who've built these 440 00:23:52,276 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: unbelievably consequential organizations and innovations that we benefit from every day. 441 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,756 Speaker 1: They chose to not look at the world like a pyramid, 442 00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:03,436 Speaker 1: and they didn't think, oh, everyone on their own. They 443 00:24:03,516 --> 00:24:05,116 Speaker 1: chose to look at the world in what I call 444 00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:10,116 Speaker 1: a constellation, which is, yes, be yourself. You're a star, 445 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 1: and you see other people as stars, and you try 446 00:24:12,396 --> 00:24:14,996 Speaker 1: to form new and interesting connections between them to make 447 00:24:15,076 --> 00:24:18,316 Speaker 1: something useful and something you could never do on your own. 448 00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:21,436 Speaker 1: Too often are default setting is looking at the world 449 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:25,436 Speaker 1: like a pyramid, and we keep getting into those binary traps. 450 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:28,116 Speaker 1: One of the things I really liked about the book 451 00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:30,756 Speaker 1: is that you didn't fall into the trap that sometimes 452 00:24:30,836 --> 00:24:33,556 Speaker 1: people do in leadership books, where they just give you 453 00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:37,596 Speaker 1: a series of case studies of quote unquote great leaders 454 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 1: and say do it like this person, And so it 455 00:24:40,196 --> 00:24:42,756 Speaker 1: was a relief that you didn't write it that way. 456 00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 1: That said, I did finish the book wondering who are 457 00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:50,396 Speaker 1: your models of people who you think of as having 458 00:24:50,556 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 1: governed either businesses or countries or other kinds of nonprofit 459 00:24:56,036 --> 00:25:00,956 Speaker 1: entities through this model of giving away power or doing 460 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 1: the power with thing. I mean, it would be great 461 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 1: to say Barack Obama, whom we both admire tremendously, but 462 00:25:07,076 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 1: I sort of think his biggest wins came when he 463 00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: didn't do that. You know, Obamacare being a great example 464 00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 1: of not open without complexity. But you know, the real 465 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:19,876 Speaker 1: transformative piece of legislation, to my mind of his presidency 466 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 1: not was saying what this or being word did to 467 00:25:21,516 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 1: it subsequently and it really was not ultimately a compromise. 468 00:25:25,436 --> 00:25:28,316 Speaker 1: It's a great point. I mean, Anne Marie Slaughter wrote 469 00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: this great essay I think in Foreign Policy or Foreign Affairs, 470 00:25:33,036 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 1: and I'm paraphrasing here, but she basically starts off because 471 00:25:36,756 --> 00:25:39,116 Speaker 1: I would add the Paris Climate Accord, despite what happened 472 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:41,316 Speaker 1: to it afterwards, I think it's wonderful she said. As 473 00:25:41,356 --> 00:25:45,156 Speaker 1: an internationally trained lawyer, and this and this. I ought 474 00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:46,756 Speaker 1: to hate the deal, and I ought to hate it 475 00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:49,516 Speaker 1: because it isn't binding. It isn't And she does the 476 00:25:49,556 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 1: whole litany of what were the criticisms of it leading 477 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:56,716 Speaker 1: up to it and after it, and she said, but 478 00:25:58,196 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 1: for all those reasons, of all those things, it isn't. 479 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:04,436 Speaker 1: I think it is wonderful and really helpful because it 480 00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 1: is not binding, it is open ended. It allows people 481 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And I think that is an interesting 482 00:26:11,716 --> 00:26:14,676 Speaker 1: test case. And I am no expert on climate or 483 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 1: the Climate Deal, but that we could get out then 484 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:20,836 Speaker 1: get back in. Other people could step up for us 485 00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 1: when the previous administration didn't want to. All of that 486 00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:26,836 Speaker 1: is a kind of weird in a good sense and 487 00:26:26,996 --> 00:26:31,996 Speaker 1: flexible way of dealing with something that is voluntary. People 488 00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:34,396 Speaker 1: set their own targets and it may go off the rails, 489 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 1: but it could lead to something really beautiful. I like that. 490 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:42,836 Speaker 1: So Anne Marie Slaughter, she's someone I admired tremendously. You know, 491 00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:46,116 Speaker 1: she's done things in academia where she was a professor 492 00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: in a dean. She's been in government as director of 493 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 1: Policy Penny in the State Department. Now she runs a 494 00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:53,036 Speaker 1: think tank. I mean, there's sort of no cool thing 495 00:26:53,396 --> 00:26:56,596 Speaker 1: in the world of public life that she hasn't done. 496 00:26:57,276 --> 00:27:00,436 Speaker 1: And she's argued, really in a series of books over 497 00:27:00,476 --> 00:27:03,796 Speaker 1: the course of almost twenty years about the value in 498 00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 1: the international community of networks of people who are often 499 00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 1: like minded, who come from different countries, and cooperation among 500 00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:15,156 Speaker 1: those people. Now, one of the criticisms of her work 501 00:27:15,316 --> 00:27:17,396 Speaker 1: that's come both from the left and from the right, 502 00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 1: and she is nothing if not the mainstream of American 503 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:22,556 Speaker 1: foreign policy thinking. I think I always think it's good 504 00:27:22,556 --> 00:27:24,676 Speaker 1: if people are criticizing you on both sides. But one 505 00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:27,436 Speaker 1: of the criticisms that her work has encountered is that 506 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:31,996 Speaker 1: the people who are doing the dance are actually an elite, 507 00:27:32,756 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 1: and that they're an elite, they exercises a lot of 508 00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:39,796 Speaker 1: power that because it's not centered in one person, most 509 00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:43,396 Speaker 1: people don't really notice, and which is therefore in some 510 00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:50,036 Speaker 1: sense less responsive to big majorities of people. Yeah, that 511 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:51,476 Speaker 1: made me want to ask you about the sort of 512 00:27:51,556 --> 00:27:54,836 Speaker 1: overall picture you have of the power of giving away power. 513 00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: It's very consistent with Anrie's idea of shared power. As 514 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: you said, a lot of decisions are made by the 515 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:02,396 Speaker 1: people in the room, and I wonder, how do you 516 00:28:02,436 --> 00:28:04,636 Speaker 1: think about that? I mean, it could be very down 517 00:28:04,636 --> 00:28:07,916 Speaker 1: to the grassroots. But you know, fifty million or three 518 00:28:07,996 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty million people will have trouble all sitting 519 00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:12,516 Speaker 1: in a room together. They're always representatives of that group. 520 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:15,836 Speaker 1: We're sitting in a room. Yeah. You said two phrases 521 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 1: that I think often come up in this context that 522 00:28:18,796 --> 00:28:22,996 Speaker 1: are important to clarify and redefine maybe. And one is 523 00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:26,236 Speaker 1: I had this discussion with Anne Marie. She came to 524 00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:28,476 Speaker 1: London and she said, oh, we need more bottoms up. 525 00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:30,276 Speaker 1: And I made the point to her I made earlier, 526 00:28:30,396 --> 00:28:34,116 Speaker 1: like bottoms up is no better. If you think of 527 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: yourself or you think of other people, is at the bottom, 528 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 1: you are doomed. Nothing good is going to come from 529 00:28:41,756 --> 00:28:45,396 Speaker 1: thinking of people at the bottom. You'll be condescending or 530 00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:48,716 Speaker 1: you'll feel condescended too, depending on where you've put yourself 531 00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:51,556 Speaker 1: in that equation. It's an awful equation, and you do 532 00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:54,036 Speaker 1: not have to look at yourself or others. Is at 533 00:28:54,076 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 1: the bottom of a pyramid. You could think of yourself 534 00:28:57,076 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 1: as stars in a constellation, for example. The other is 535 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:04,876 Speaker 1: the word sharing power, which is what you said sounds right. 536 00:29:05,676 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 1: It is an exercise in dividing, implicit and sharing powers. 537 00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 1: There's only so much and so we'll divvy it up. 538 00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:15,716 Speaker 1: And it's like no, no, no, you're done once you're 539 00:29:15,756 --> 00:29:20,756 Speaker 1: in that limited mindset. The great leaders, these constellation leaders. 540 00:29:21,636 --> 00:29:26,236 Speaker 1: Power is not something to be obviously lorded over others. Okay, 541 00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:28,596 Speaker 1: we all got that mumbo. It's not something to be 542 00:29:28,636 --> 00:29:32,276 Speaker 1: hoarded to yourself as an isolated individual. It is not 543 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:35,036 Speaker 1: something to be divvied up and shared. It is something 544 00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:38,476 Speaker 1: to be made with and through other people, made and 545 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:41,956 Speaker 1: multiplied over and over again. And that's where the magic lives. 546 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 1: And it's where the phrase grassroots is a real problem 547 00:29:44,276 --> 00:29:46,556 Speaker 1: because it's just kind of code for bottom up. Two. 548 00:29:48,596 --> 00:30:00,436 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. So I like that, and I 549 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: buy it, and I also take it that what you're 550 00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:05,916 Speaker 1: saying is that power needs to be conceptualized as not 551 00:30:06,156 --> 00:30:08,476 Speaker 1: zero sum. It has to be positive sum. You can 552 00:30:08,516 --> 00:30:11,396 Speaker 1: construct power in ways that are inclusive because you're not 553 00:30:11,436 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 1: starting with a pie and then dividing up the pie. Yeah, 554 00:30:13,836 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 1: and I think that's very very powerful. Do you think 555 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:20,836 Speaker 1: there are no zones of power though that would genuinely 556 00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:26,356 Speaker 1: truly qualify as zero sum aren't there some situations, Yeah, 557 00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:28,276 Speaker 1: you know. I mean if you think about the amassing 558 00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 1: of troops and resources and the logistics of D Day, 559 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 1: I bet that was very pyramid like and top down 560 00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:40,676 Speaker 1: and work backwards from a set date, all these sorts 561 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:42,756 Speaker 1: of things I warn against in the book, like it 562 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:46,196 Speaker 1: was helpful for that. But what I love is Churchill 563 00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:49,276 Speaker 1: made the point at the time like that is to 564 00:30:49,436 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 1: win this victory and then a different kind of hard 565 00:30:51,956 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 1: work begins where that mindset isn't at all helpful. And 566 00:30:55,196 --> 00:30:58,356 Speaker 1: that's what he called for the forming of special relationships, 567 00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 1: which sounds really touchy feely except at Winston Churchill saying it, 568 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:04,356 Speaker 1: and he's like, no, no, millions of them right between 569 00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 1: farmers and farmers, and like that's where the energy and 570 00:31:09,116 --> 00:31:11,556 Speaker 1: this new kind of power can be created and multiplied. 571 00:31:12,396 --> 00:31:14,236 Speaker 1: I don't know if we're allowed to if can I 572 00:31:14,236 --> 00:31:16,956 Speaker 1: ask you a question because this is I didn't write 573 00:31:16,996 --> 00:31:18,796 Speaker 1: this in the book, but I want to. It's what 574 00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:22,476 Speaker 1: I've been struggling with. In the book, I talk about 575 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:26,556 Speaker 1: the fact that win win is a losing formula because 576 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:28,596 Speaker 1: it sounds good at first. It's like win win, but 577 00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 1: you can't sort of talk about winning without implying losing. 578 00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:34,716 Speaker 1: And it comes with all these it comes with that 579 00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 1: pyramid mindset that isn't helpful, I think, to a whole 580 00:31:37,516 --> 00:31:40,396 Speaker 1: bunch of intractable problems we're trying to work through together. 581 00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:44,196 Speaker 1: So I went back to that famous Adam Smith quote, 582 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:46,036 Speaker 1: we do not rely on the benevolence of the butcher, 583 00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:49,316 Speaker 1: the baker, the brewer for our dinner, right, And I think, 584 00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:52,436 Speaker 1: and then you read on a little bit, and he 585 00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:56,156 Speaker 1: is understandably, I think, skeptical of sort of the do 586 00:31:56,316 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: good or instinct that it is particularly important for progressives 587 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:02,676 Speaker 1: to listen to that critique of he had seen so 588 00:32:02,716 --> 00:32:07,156 Speaker 1: many things not happen or happen badly relying on benevolence alone. 589 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:10,956 Speaker 1: My question you, it's like, okay, so it seems like 590 00:32:10,996 --> 00:32:13,676 Speaker 1: we've run with it over since seventeen seventy six till 591 00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:15,836 Speaker 1: now we've sort of run with that. Okay, you don't 592 00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: rely on the benevolence, So then you do sort of 593 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:21,556 Speaker 1: some version of enlightened self interest or whatever. That's what 594 00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:24,356 Speaker 1: is going on between the butcher, the baker, the brewer 595 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 1: and you, who's an implied other stick figure in Adam 596 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:33,076 Speaker 1: Smith's rendition, which doesn't seem right either. And I guess 597 00:32:33,116 --> 00:32:35,756 Speaker 1: my questions like, what would you describe as the relationship? 598 00:32:35,996 --> 00:32:38,396 Speaker 1: What does the butcher think of the baker? What does 599 00:32:38,396 --> 00:32:40,316 Speaker 1: the baker think of the brewer? How does the brewer 600 00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:45,076 Speaker 1: think of you? What is going on between all those 601 00:32:45,076 --> 00:32:47,436 Speaker 1: people that begin with B. One of the answers that 602 00:32:47,476 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: emilily comes into my mind is inspired by the historian M. A. 603 00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 1: Rothschild's writing about Adam Smith and what she I'm going 604 00:32:57,316 --> 00:33:00,236 Speaker 1: to grossly oversimplify this, but one thing that she shows 605 00:33:00,516 --> 00:33:02,436 Speaker 1: is that you know some of this famous for Wealth 606 00:33:02,436 --> 00:33:05,236 Speaker 1: of Nations, which is where the quote you're introducing comes from. 607 00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:07,916 Speaker 1: But he also wrote this incredibly influential at the time 608 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:11,116 Speaker 1: book called a Theory of Moral Sentiments, and he was 609 00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 1: actually really deeply interested in exactly the question that you're asking. 610 00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:18,036 Speaker 1: What are the we call them affects or sentiments that 611 00:33:18,156 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 1: shape the moral life. And now this is me riffing 612 00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:25,516 Speaker 1: on Emma, but I think it's sort of interesting that 613 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:29,316 Speaker 1: in Smith's world people still believed that being in commerce 614 00:33:29,356 --> 00:33:33,476 Speaker 1: with other people made you like them more, made you 615 00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:36,836 Speaker 1: feel more connected to them, because relative too, I live 616 00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:41,676 Speaker 1: in my little hamlet, I never leave I grow all 617 00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:45,396 Speaker 1: my own food, I make everything that I make for myself, 618 00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:48,316 Speaker 1: and I therefore never meet the people on the other 619 00:33:48,356 --> 00:33:50,596 Speaker 1: side of the hill. And when I meet them, I 620 00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:52,156 Speaker 1: don't like them, because if I meet them, it's probably 621 00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:54,836 Speaker 1: because they're trying to steal something from me. Relative to 622 00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:57,716 Speaker 1: that world, a world where I go over the hill 623 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:00,156 Speaker 1: with my goods and the people on the other side 624 00:34:00,156 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: of the hill come up to the top of the 625 00:34:01,436 --> 00:34:04,156 Speaker 1: hill with their goods and we trade, is a world 626 00:34:04,196 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 1: where we have more human contact, more engagement. And I 627 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:10,916 Speaker 1: think in the seventeen hundreds of people believed with Smith 628 00:34:11,356 --> 00:34:13,036 Speaker 1: that the way I would think about those other people 629 00:34:13,036 --> 00:34:15,116 Speaker 1: with whom I was trading on a daily basis is 630 00:34:15,156 --> 00:34:17,716 Speaker 1: that I liked them because I got to know them 631 00:34:17,756 --> 00:34:20,436 Speaker 1: a little. Yeah, there we go. Then we got, you know, 632 00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:23,676 Speaker 1: fifty years later by the time Marx is looking at 633 00:34:23,676 --> 00:34:27,276 Speaker 1: the same economic situation. By then, big time capitalism has 634 00:34:27,276 --> 00:34:30,196 Speaker 1: come into existence, and we've had the Industrial Revolution much 635 00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:33,476 Speaker 1: beyond what Smith could just glimpse the beginnings of. And 636 00:34:33,516 --> 00:34:36,076 Speaker 1: then at that point Marx is starting to say, look, 637 00:34:36,076 --> 00:34:40,036 Speaker 1: economic relationships are alienated. It's no longer the case that 638 00:34:40,156 --> 00:34:42,316 Speaker 1: I like you, and so now we sort of imagine 639 00:34:42,356 --> 00:34:44,236 Speaker 1: that in the small town everyone knew each other and 640 00:34:44,316 --> 00:34:45,716 Speaker 1: liked each other. But once you go to the big 641 00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:47,356 Speaker 1: city and you have to buy and sell in a 642 00:34:47,676 --> 00:34:50,116 Speaker 1: big store, or you work in a factory, you become 643 00:34:50,156 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 1: alienated from the other people, alienated from your labor. And 644 00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:57,236 Speaker 1: I guess my own view is that in the perfect world, 645 00:34:57,596 --> 00:34:59,956 Speaker 1: all of our interactions would enable us to feel a 646 00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:04,276 Speaker 1: little more human connection, a little more human contact. And 647 00:35:04,396 --> 00:35:06,596 Speaker 1: you know, the Internet shows you how complicated this is. Right, 648 00:35:06,636 --> 00:35:10,596 Speaker 1: The Internet both had a promise of nanimity and a 649 00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:14,276 Speaker 1: danger of alienation, and especially with the rise of social media, 650 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:18,316 Speaker 1: it produces at least the perception of intimacy, and you 651 00:35:18,356 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: can actually get to know people on the Internet whom 652 00:35:20,356 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 1: you wouldn't know otherwise. I look at my kids world. 653 00:35:22,876 --> 00:35:24,956 Speaker 1: They have a much broader acquaintanceship than I did at 654 00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:28,076 Speaker 1: their age, because I basically knew people whom I had met. Yeah, 655 00:35:28,156 --> 00:35:30,356 Speaker 1: and they know a lot of people well whom they've 656 00:35:30,356 --> 00:35:32,596 Speaker 1: never they've met them, but they haven't met them in person. 657 00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:36,636 Speaker 1: So I guess, to me, this is the sort of 658 00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:40,036 Speaker 1: thing that's it's always both elements are going to be there. 659 00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:42,556 Speaker 1: We're going to have to interact with you with one another, 660 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:44,716 Speaker 1: knowing that we have something to gain, that there's something 661 00:35:44,796 --> 00:35:47,156 Speaker 1: kind of quote unquote purely economic about it. But we 662 00:35:47,196 --> 00:35:49,436 Speaker 1: also need to have some sense of human connection and 663 00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:53,636 Speaker 1: if we don't, we are screwed. Well, thank you, and 664 00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 1: that is very helpful. As you were saying that, I 665 00:35:57,436 --> 00:36:00,396 Speaker 1: was thinking often I think our debate is the individual 666 00:36:00,676 --> 00:36:03,356 Speaker 1: or like big groups of people, and what I think 667 00:36:03,396 --> 00:36:06,796 Speaker 1: Mary fall it and what we're talking about is small 668 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:09,916 Speaker 1: groups of people sitting around a table together, something as 669 00:36:09,956 --> 00:36:13,916 Speaker 1: mundane as your staff meeting on Monday. That is certainly 670 00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:16,316 Speaker 1: where Mary Follett said, that's where a lot of this 671 00:36:16,396 --> 00:36:19,956 Speaker 1: work can happen, because in a crowd you can be lost. 672 00:36:20,356 --> 00:36:22,396 Speaker 1: You're not lost in a group. You are more you 673 00:36:22,716 --> 00:36:26,396 Speaker 1: in a group. You can only really know yourself by 674 00:36:26,436 --> 00:36:30,036 Speaker 1: bumping into working through with other people around you and 675 00:36:30,116 --> 00:36:34,316 Speaker 1: figuring out ways to get people around a table, and 676 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 1: not to say things that like what unites us is 677 00:36:38,476 --> 00:36:41,636 Speaker 1: greater than what divides us, which is another one of 678 00:36:41,636 --> 00:36:44,036 Speaker 1: these things that everyone nodds their head. I certainly do 679 00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:46,196 Speaker 1: when people say it, because you're supposed to nod your 680 00:36:46,196 --> 00:36:48,996 Speaker 1: head to it. But I don't think it's true. And 681 00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:53,076 Speaker 1: I think all the energy lies indifference. That's where the magic, 682 00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:55,316 Speaker 1: That's where all the energy lives. So let's not be 683 00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:57,356 Speaker 1: afraid of it or sweep it under the carpet. Let's 684 00:36:57,396 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 1: deal with it. We'll be right back, Matthew. I want 685 00:37:10,556 --> 00:37:12,796 Speaker 1: to thank you for your service to the country, for 686 00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:16,876 Speaker 1: a fascinating and challenging book, and for a really great 687 00:37:16,916 --> 00:37:20,996 Speaker 1: conversation about power and how we can rethink it in 688 00:37:21,076 --> 00:37:23,956 Speaker 1: more productive ways going forward. Thank you so much for 689 00:37:23,996 --> 00:37:27,476 Speaker 1: having me, and thank you for this podcast. And you're 690 00:37:27,516 --> 00:37:29,476 Speaker 1: hitting on crypto we didn't talk about, but all the 691 00:37:29,516 --> 00:37:31,676 Speaker 1: topics you're going through on this podcast are the things 692 00:37:31,716 --> 00:37:34,796 Speaker 1: I'm eager to learn much more about. So I'm a 693 00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:45,356 Speaker 1: big listener and fan too. Thank you. Thanks him. Speaking 694 00:37:45,396 --> 00:37:48,916 Speaker 1: to Matthew about the power of giving away power, I 695 00:37:48,956 --> 00:37:52,676 Speaker 1: was really struck by the paradox that lies at the 696 00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:55,956 Speaker 1: heart of it. On one hand, Matthew is a strong 697 00:37:56,036 --> 00:38:00,356 Speaker 1: advocate of the idea that we need to recognize our 698 00:38:00,396 --> 00:38:04,276 Speaker 1: diversity and our difference in order for power to mean anything, 699 00:38:04,756 --> 00:38:06,996 Speaker 1: and that instinct lies at the heart of his idea 700 00:38:07,116 --> 00:38:09,916 Speaker 1: that we need to diffuse power and spread it out 701 00:38:09,956 --> 00:38:12,636 Speaker 1: to many different people in order for it to function, 702 00:38:13,076 --> 00:38:15,996 Speaker 1: and indeed that doing so will enhance the power and 703 00:38:16,036 --> 00:38:19,756 Speaker 1: authority of the legitimate democratic institutions that do so. That 704 00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:22,556 Speaker 1: insight seems to be correct, and it is, after all, 705 00:38:22,596 --> 00:38:26,396 Speaker 1: the basic insight on which all democracy is built. Democracy is, 706 00:38:26,436 --> 00:38:29,876 Speaker 1: after all, the very idea that collective rules should take 707 00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:34,356 Speaker 1: place collectively rather than from the dominant center. Yet, at 708 00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:38,276 Speaker 1: the same time, as Matthew acknowledges and indeed points out, 709 00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:41,716 Speaker 1: in a world where we are tremendously diverse, and where 710 00:38:41,756 --> 00:38:45,436 Speaker 1: power is sent out to many, many different people, there 711 00:38:45,556 --> 00:38:48,476 Speaker 1: is a real risk that our divisions will become so 712 00:38:48,476 --> 00:38:51,476 Speaker 1: significant that we will no longer be able to make 713 00:38:51,516 --> 00:38:55,476 Speaker 1: collective decisions, and a glance at the US political system 714 00:38:55,516 --> 00:38:58,196 Speaker 1: over the last five or six years suggests that we 715 00:38:58,276 --> 00:39:02,036 Speaker 1: may actually be in such a period. Indeed, in other 716 00:39:02,076 --> 00:39:06,276 Speaker 1: historical moments, political division might have given way to common 717 00:39:06,276 --> 00:39:09,556 Speaker 1: feeling when we face something like the COVID pandemic, But 718 00:39:09,676 --> 00:39:13,796 Speaker 1: in our profoundly politicized era, it seems as though even 719 00:39:13,836 --> 00:39:17,156 Speaker 1: existential threat to our lives is not enough to pull 720 00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,596 Speaker 1: us together. As we've come to understand and construe the 721 00:39:19,636 --> 00:39:23,836 Speaker 1: pandemic in politicized terms and in polarized terms, making it 722 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:28,316 Speaker 1: harder and harder for polarization to go away. In this conversation, 723 00:39:28,516 --> 00:39:31,996 Speaker 1: I don't think that either Matthew or I solved this paradox, 724 00:39:32,236 --> 00:39:35,476 Speaker 1: and perhaps it's a paradox that can't be perfectly solved. 725 00:39:36,076 --> 00:39:38,236 Speaker 1: Like Matthew, I have a lot of faith in our 726 00:39:38,276 --> 00:39:42,156 Speaker 1: capacities to pull together as a country eventually. Yet that said, 727 00:39:42,356 --> 00:39:45,596 Speaker 1: I don't have a simple solution to how we get there, 728 00:39:45,916 --> 00:39:49,876 Speaker 1: other than living through the realities of our divisions and 729 00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:54,116 Speaker 1: trying to slowly and gently make our way back towards 730 00:39:54,116 --> 00:39:56,996 Speaker 1: the middle. I think that's the kind of aspiration that 731 00:39:57,036 --> 00:40:00,356 Speaker 1: Matthew has, and to me, it makes his political vision 732 00:40:00,676 --> 00:40:04,276 Speaker 1: immensely attractive and interesting, and it makes him a person 733 00:40:04,516 --> 00:40:07,956 Speaker 1: who's worth watching going forward, not just for the ways 734 00:40:07,996 --> 00:40:10,676 Speaker 1: he's deployed power in the PAS, but for the takeaways 735 00:40:10,676 --> 00:40:14,876 Speaker 1: and lessons that it's led him to reach. Until the 736 00:40:14,916 --> 00:40:17,316 Speaker 1: next time I speak to you here on Deep Background, 737 00:40:17,956 --> 00:40:24,476 Speaker 1: breathe deep, think deep thoughts, and have some fun. Deep 738 00:40:24,476 --> 00:40:27,756 Speaker 1: Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer 739 00:40:27,836 --> 00:40:31,076 Speaker 1: is Mola Board, our engineer is ben Toalliday, and our 740 00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:35,916 Speaker 1: showrunner is Sophie Crane. Mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 741 00:40:36,396 --> 00:40:39,796 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Gara at Pushkin, thanks to Mia Lobell, 742 00:40:39,996 --> 00:40:44,716 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia Jeancott, Heather Faine, Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, 743 00:40:44,916 --> 00:40:48,516 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 744 00:40:48,516 --> 00:40:51,316 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column 745 00:40:51,316 --> 00:40:54,036 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at Bloomberg dot 746 00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:58,356 Speaker 1: com Slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original st later podcasts, 747 00:40:58,556 --> 00:41:01,836 Speaker 1: go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you 748 00:41:01,876 --> 00:41:04,516 Speaker 1: like what you heard today, please write a review or 749 00:41:04,636 --> 00:41:07,556 Speaker 1: tell a friend. This is deep background