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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: How have children and families going through the court system

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Speaker 1: been impacted by the pandemic and how have the courts

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Speaker 1: addressed the challenges both human and technological. My guest is

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Speaker 1: Judge David Kats of the Superior Court of New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: He was recently inducted as President of the National Council

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Speaker 1: of Juvenile and Family Court Judges, the oldest judicial membership

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Speaker 1: organization in the country. Welcome Judge Kats. Thanks for having me, June.

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Speaker 1: It's really not honored to be here to represent the

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Speaker 1: n c t f C J into talk about these

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Speaker 1: important issues across the country. We saw many courts shut

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Speaker 1: down or scale back during the pandemic. How did the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: you know, basically affect the family and juvenile courts? Well,

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Speaker 1: what traditionally has been the case with family courts mostly

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Speaker 1: across the countries, we were generally a paper driven dot it.

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Speaker 1: Some courts have gone to things such as e courts

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Speaker 1: or electronic filing or things like that, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of the courts across the country were still paper driven docket.

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Speaker 1: So when the courts faced the pandemic, and obviously people

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Speaker 1: couldn't come into the building necessarily. First thing a lot

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Speaker 1: of our jurisdictions had to do was convert from a

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Speaker 1: paper driven system to a digital system, and that obviously

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Speaker 1: took training and time, and new processes and new procedures

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Speaker 1: had to be put in place, so that in and

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Speaker 1: of itself caused some delay and things like that and

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Speaker 1: some adjustments. And then in addition to that, the pandemic

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Speaker 1: has certainly affected our ability to bring cases in the

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Speaker 1: way we used to bring them in. And there's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of pros and cons as a result of

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Speaker 1: the lessons we learned from the pandemic. I think on balance,

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Speaker 1: it just moved us forward with technology enhancements and just

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Speaker 1: a better understanding on how to make courts perhaps a

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Speaker 1: little more convenient for court users. Did you find that

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Speaker 1: virtual hearings are better in some cases than in person

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Speaker 1: hearings or is it better to have the child or

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Speaker 1: the adults in the courtroom. That's really kind of a

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Speaker 1: mixed bag, if you will. Just some of the advantages

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Speaker 1: are pretty clear. First of all, there's a significant cross

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Speaker 1: the country transportation issue in getting to court houses and

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Speaker 1: things like that. I tell our judges here. You know,

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Speaker 1: we drive in every day for years, probably could do

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Speaker 1: with our eyes closed. But a lot of the court

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Speaker 1: users that come here may have to take two buses sometimes,

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Speaker 1: and busses break, cars breakdown, and transportation in the greatest

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Speaker 1: parts of our country, the largest parts of our country

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Speaker 1: are just not what we'd like them to be, so

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult for people to get the court. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you could do something virtually. You've addressed that problem. In addition,

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Speaker 1: we're able to do time certain for some parts of

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Speaker 1: our dockets, so people don't have to take a whole

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Speaker 1: day off of work necessarily. And in the past people

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Speaker 1: would come down and sometimes times they'd end up with

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Speaker 1: just in the German order and it could be you know,

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Speaker 1: an afternoon or a morning that was just nonproductive. Things

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Speaker 1: like that are greatly enhanced by digital proceedings now. Also,

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Speaker 1: um we find in the domestic violence sometimes the victims

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Speaker 1: are more comfortable in a virtual setting because they don't

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Speaker 1: be in the same courtroom as the defendant, and our

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Speaker 1: judges are able to make credibility terminations and the resolutions

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Speaker 1: of these virtual proceedings are very clear, so you know,

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Speaker 1: judges can look at all, the use all the factors

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Speaker 1: that they use for assessing credibility. That's an enhancement also,

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Speaker 1: and so I think on balance we've learned quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: As I said, we can also do breakout rooms if necessary,

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Speaker 1: where the attorneys can meet with their litigants. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: in some of these cases, it was harder for the

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Speaker 1: attorneys to meet with their live against before some of

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Speaker 1: the cases were called, and now through Zoom or through

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Speaker 1: the virtual proceedings, they can do that. On the other

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Speaker 1: side of the coin, you know, we they were dealing

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Speaker 1: with internet access and connectivity issues sometimes with presentation of exhibits,

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Speaker 1: it could be difficult. A lot of times witnesses have

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Speaker 1: information on their cell phone and they're not able to

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Speaker 1: transmit that into hard copy or or not able to

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Speaker 1: provide that digitally. And the other issue that I think

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Speaker 1: we're facing in some parts is really what they're calling

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Speaker 1: a zoom fatigue. It is a little bit difficult sometimes

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Speaker 1: to be on the zoom all day as opposed to

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Speaker 1: be in the corproom all day. It's frustrating because you

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Speaker 1: could be in the middle of a sentence and you

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Speaker 1: lose your internet connection or something alone. Those lines happens.

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Speaker 1: The other issue, of course, is when we come to

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Speaker 1: treatments and programs and services. I think we're finding the

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Speaker 1: Internet is not necessarily as good, if you will, as

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Speaker 1: the in person services, UH for providers and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So when COVID is over, though it seems like that's

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Speaker 1: not happening anytime soon, do you intend to go back

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Speaker 1: to the way it was bringing people in or have

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Speaker 1: a mix of virtual and in person. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: courts are going to have to assess not necessarily one

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Speaker 1: size fits all, but I think it opened our eyes

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Speaker 1: to maybe a hybrid approach. A lot of times. In

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Speaker 1: some of these cases, you have calendar calls and what

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Speaker 1: we call first or second appearances. There's no reason why

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Speaker 1: things like that can't be virtual. You may have case

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Speaker 1: management conferences, you may have to resolve discovery issues or

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Speaker 1: trial preparation issues, and we can really make it a

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Speaker 1: lot more dignified for court users, a lot more user

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Speaker 1: friendly by not requiring necessarily a trip to the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: So I would envision those type of proceedings proceeding accordingly virtually.

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Speaker 1: But again, you know, some judges are going to want

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Speaker 1: to have to bring a case in for various reasons,

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Speaker 1: and so I think judicial discretion is important in that regard.

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Speaker 1: But overall, I think it's turned out to be somewhat

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Speaker 1: more dignified than having everybody you know in a waiting

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Speaker 1: room and you're just not sure if your case is

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Speaker 1: going to be called in ten minutes or an hour

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Speaker 1: and ten minutes or two hours, things like that. So

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Speaker 1: I see it hopefully you know the benefits of it

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Speaker 1: continuing in that regard, and trials are you know, a

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Speaker 1: mixed bag as well. Some trials are very complex with

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Speaker 1: um a lot of documents and and exhibits and things

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Speaker 1: like that may have to be in person, and some

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Speaker 1: trials may not have to be in person. So I

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Speaker 1: think we'll probably see a little bit of both going forward.

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Speaker 1: Do you lose what I would call the fear factor,

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Speaker 1: where you know, when someone comes into a courtroom and

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Speaker 1: has to sit down at the table and the proceedings

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Speaker 1: and all, it sort of gives you a sense of

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Speaker 1: either all or fear or something. But if you're on zoom,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you get that, and maybe you

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Speaker 1: don't want it. I don't know. It's family courts well,

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Speaker 1: I think we try to enforce a solemnity of the proceeding.

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Speaker 1: You know, Judges of course have to be on the

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Speaker 1: virtual proceeding, and you have to maintain decorum and order.

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Speaker 1: We've all had stories of calling someone on zoom when

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Speaker 1: they're in the car, for instance, you know, and then

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Speaker 1: you just can't have that be the case, so you

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Speaker 1: have to balance it out, you know. I think the

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Speaker 1: best way to kind of sum it up is is

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Speaker 1: really not one size fits all. But you know, if

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Speaker 1: you have a case that you started with zoom and

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Speaker 1: it's not working because any number of reasons, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: to prevent the judge from saying, you know, we tried this,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to require anybody to come in, and

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Speaker 1: instead it can be in data everybody to come in.

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Speaker 1: I was looking at the report, the preliminary look at

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Speaker 1: COVID impact something called my Eye. It said mask requirements

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Speaker 1: caused some issues for juries to assess credibility. So that's

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Speaker 1: an interesting issue. What the concern there was is a

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Speaker 1: person who is wearing a mask, it's difficult to assess

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Speaker 1: their facial reactions to what they're hearing. And judges and

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Speaker 1: h certainly lawyers presenting their cases and the litigans themselves.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I want to you know, read the jury,

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Speaker 1: how is their case being presented? What do they think

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Speaker 1: the jury is experiencing. And there was a concern in

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Speaker 1: that regard that some of the signals, inadvertent or otherwise

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Speaker 1: that could come from people's facial reactions could be lost

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Speaker 1: with mass. So some jurisdictions were requiring clear mass, which

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Speaker 1: was something interesting, so you could see how the facial

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Speaker 1: expressions were responding if you to you know, certain positions

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Speaker 1: taken their certain witnesses testimony and the like. Did you

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Speaker 1: have more domestic violence cases during the pandemic or you

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Speaker 1: know even now is it's tapering off, so the filings

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Speaker 1: are down slightly. And what we've done in some jurisdictions is, uh,

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Speaker 1: we've also enhanced a way to file. So there was

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Speaker 1: you know, a process where you go to the police

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Speaker 1: station or you go to the court, and now we've

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Speaker 1: accepted electronic applications over the internet. So that's was our

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Speaker 1: concern is that people couldn't come out because of the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: or people were trapped because the abuser was you know,

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Speaker 1: in the home with them, and so we think some

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Speaker 1: of that contributed to the decline. But the country being

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Speaker 1: as diverse as it is. We have other jurisdictions which

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Speaker 1: have seen upward ticks in the filings of domestic violence.

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Speaker 1: Some courts dockets there were so behind on their dockets

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Speaker 1: because of the pandemic. Did that happen in family court

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Speaker 1: in juvenile court as well? Yes, And that's a big

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Speaker 1: issue because what I think that boils down to is

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Speaker 1: an access to justice. People need their cases resolved. You know,

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Speaker 1: if we have a child that's in h in placement

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Speaker 1: with the social service agency, we need to get that

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Speaker 1: child to permanency, either home or some alternative. And those cases,

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Speaker 1: you know, they just need to move. Juvenile cases have

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Speaker 1: to move, and obviously domestic violence have to move. People

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Speaker 1: have a right to if they want to go through

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Speaker 1: the divorce court to get divorced, that move on with

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Speaker 1: their life. And so um, that's a concern that the

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Speaker 1: proceedings are taking perhaps a little longer through the internet

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Speaker 1: than they would in person, with all the issues that

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Speaker 1: sometimes um you know, arise through the Internet and technology

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Speaker 1: and and and of course you're dealing with technology, divide

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Speaker 1: and things along those lines. So the pending cases is

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Speaker 1: a real concerned I think for most judges planning these

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Speaker 1: type of cases. Yeah, I was wondering about, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I assume there are a lot of juveniles or

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Speaker 1: adults that don't have access to the Internet in their home.

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Speaker 1: You have to bring them in well, yes and no.

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Speaker 1: So judges, you know, have to be community leaders and

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Speaker 1: they have to convene stakeholder groups, and so some of

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Speaker 1: our jurisdictions are making sure that people can go to

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Speaker 1: a local public library, for instance, as long as they

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Speaker 1: have privacy and can access the Internet there, or local

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Speaker 1: town halls government buildings. Of course, the concern there is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you want the person who's proceeding in that

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Speaker 1: manner to be private and not in a public room

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Speaker 1: and things like that. So we have encouraged stakeholders to

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Speaker 1: work together so that someone who does not have the

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Speaker 1: Internet at home, nevertheless, may have an alternative instead of

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Speaker 1: having the trials at the courthouse. Does the pandemics still

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Speaker 1: have effects now or have you learned to get by

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Speaker 1: so that it doesn't Well, you know, some people are

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Speaker 1: still very very understandably, I guess, reluctant or wish not

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Speaker 1: to come into court now. They may have other illnesses

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Speaker 1: or other health conditions. COVID is. As you noted, it's

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Speaker 1: not over. So we're still struggling with some of the issues.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to be, you know, respectful and dignified and

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Speaker 1: making sure that judges exercise their discretion accordingly and consistently

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Speaker 1: with with with respect what cases come in and what

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Speaker 1: cases don't come in. But we're still dealing with the

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Speaker 1: public and some concerns and some safety concerns being in

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Speaker 1: crowded rooms with the pandemic. You know, although obviously it's

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Speaker 1: not as it was in March two thousand twenty, but

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Speaker 1: it's still not as it were before. Then. Explain what

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Speaker 1: the problem is with firearms and civil protection orders. Sure,

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Speaker 1: so I know you are well aware of the New

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Speaker 1: York State Rifle and Pistol Association opinion. I've listened to

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Speaker 1: some of the experts that you've had on and it's

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Speaker 1: really been very, very informative and terrific actually, And so

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Speaker 1: what we in the DV community, we know that weapons

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Speaker 1: are associated with bad outcomes. Some of the research confirms.

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Speaker 1: Professor Campbell and others have done research, and that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that the n c jf c J

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Speaker 1: does is make this kind of research available and we

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Speaker 1: have judges that present on it and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and so the firearms are a concern when you're with DV,

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Speaker 1: and so we want to make sure judges are just

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Speaker 1: have the background information and that they have strategies on

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Speaker 1: how to deal with weapons in their communities. You know.

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Speaker 1: The information the checklist that we have on the n

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Speaker 1: c G f c J materials you know, involve coordinated

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Speaker 1: community responses, publicity on firearms and the protection through the

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Speaker 1: DV process safety planning that includes firearms specific information. And

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Speaker 1: we also want to make sure that the court you know,

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Speaker 1: keeps acur records of firearms. If we're going to order

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Speaker 1: a firearm be surrendered, we want to make sure this

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Speaker 1: compliance and um at the end of the case, if

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Speaker 1: if a firearm is gonna be returned, we want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that background checks are conducted in those situations

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Speaker 1: where we had domestic violence and the case is dismissed

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Speaker 1: or something on those lines. And so that's sort of

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Speaker 1: an overview of some of the materials that we make

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Speaker 1: available through the organization to uses across the country. Every

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction has their own statutes, of course, and we see

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Speaker 1: a wide variety across the country of the ability to

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Speaker 1: UM effectively in DV situations, deal with firearms. How long

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Speaker 1: is your term as president judge, and what are your goals?

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Speaker 1: It's a one year term. By the time you figure

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Speaker 1: out how to do it or what you want to

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Speaker 1: do UM, you're looking at the goal line there. So

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Speaker 1: the n c g f c J has spectrategic plan

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Speaker 1: where we more or less planned our workout for two

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Speaker 1: thousand till two thousand five with six defined strategic goals

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Speaker 1: and so works planned our work and now we're working

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Speaker 1: our plan and they include things like equity, inclusion and

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Speaker 1: diversities our number one goal, increasing membership and the like.

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Speaker 1: But one of the issues that I'm concerned about is

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Speaker 1: the impact on our society, if you will, on the

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Speaker 1: well being of our children. There are lots of issues

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Speaker 1: that many of us as adults are trying to figure out.

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Speaker 1: The economy, the fortunate nature these mass shootings that we

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Speaker 1: hear about. One commentator has equated that too like roulette,

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Speaker 1: which is really unsettling. But we know that children are

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Speaker 1: not unexposed to that, but they're also exposed to sex trafficking, bullying,

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Speaker 1: sex stori and gun violence. Social media pornography is only

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Speaker 1: a click away on their cell phones, and so when

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Speaker 1: children come into our system, I think it's incoming upon

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Speaker 1: us to make sure that they're assessed in that any

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Speaker 1: trauma is addressed, so that we don't have situations where

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Speaker 1: we then have adults with unaddressed trauma. And the n

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Speaker 1: c J c J certainly has a role in training

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Speaker 1: and identification of those type of issues, and I think

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Speaker 1: one of the challenges we have um as the n

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Speaker 1: sure judges across the country know about us and take

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Speaker 1: advantage of our resources. There's a lot of research that

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Speaker 1: we've done premier undertakings in the research area. We have

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Speaker 1: forward thinking training, and we're a membership community of like

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Speaker 1: minded professionals. And the job of judging is is isolated,

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Speaker 1: for sure. Isolating and being able to reach out to

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Speaker 1: colleagues either in your state or another state to discuss

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Speaker 1: and and figure out and address issues that you're confronting

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Speaker 1: is really a great service that we're enhancing and proud

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Speaker 1: that we can offer to the judges to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we can ensure the best outcomes for the children

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Speaker 1: that come through the corpse well, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for talking to us. Judge that's Judge David Kat's, the

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Speaker 1: president of the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges.

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Speaker 1: And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show.

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Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

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Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. Wherever you get your favorite podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm John Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg