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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm David Ego from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

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Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean

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Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

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Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads.

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Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life, because the more we

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Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood, better we can

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Speaker 3: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

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Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

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Speaker 3: your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Daniel, how can you tell the difference between a

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Speaker 2: physicist and a crack pot?

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Speaker 1: Is this one of those Internet memes like can you

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Speaker 1: tell which picture is a homeless man and which one

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Speaker 1: is a physics professor?

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Speaker 2: Well, you usually can, but I guess. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: if someone has a crazy new idea, how do you

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Speaker 2: know whether to take them seriously or just ignore them?

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Speaker 1: Well, the truth is mostly you can't tell. I mean,

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Speaker 1: some crazy ideas about the universe turn out to be true,

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Speaker 1: like look at quantum mechanics.

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Speaker 2: Wow. So does that mean that you read every theory

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Speaker 2: that people send you over the internet.

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Speaker 1: I try to, but you know, there are just too many.

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Speaker 1: There's so many people out there with fun and silly

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Speaker 1: and crazy ideas. So Honestly, most people in physics just

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Speaker 1: ignore them.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, does that mean that the theory of everything

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Speaker 2: could be right now buried in a spam folder.

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Speaker 1: What a tragedy selected for the junk mail pile by

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Speaker 1: some ai.

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Speaker 2: I am Poor hammy cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist. I'm always on

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Speaker 1: the hunt for the theory of everything, but I don't

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Speaker 1: expect it to show up in my inbox.

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Speaker 2: Is that how you usually get your research? The is

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Speaker 2: through emails?

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Speaker 1: Pam, that's right. I just like looking there the slush pile,

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Speaker 1: So like, maybe somebody emailed me exactly the idea I

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Speaker 1: need right now.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, it's called tenure sit around and wait for

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Speaker 2: emails for it.

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Speaker 1: No, but I do get messages some from our listeners

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Speaker 1: suggesting new ideas and even like grand theories that could

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Speaker 1: describe some of the open puzzles in physics.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's awesome. It's awesome that people are listening

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Speaker 2: and getting you know, stimulated intellectually, and they come up

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Speaker 2: with their own ideas about how the universe might work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not just our listeners, and it's not

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Speaker 1: just me. I think basically everybody who's a physicist gets

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Speaker 1: a few random suggestions for theories of everything in their

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Speaker 1: inbox every week.

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Speaker 2: Do you think maybe that's sort of a basic human curiosity.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're all trying to figure out how it

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Speaker 2: all work.

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Speaker 1: We all are, and as we say on this podcast

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Speaker 1: all the time, wondering belongs to everybody, and these questions

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Speaker 1: about the universe are ones that everybody wants to know

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Speaker 1: the answer to. And frankly, I love that people are

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Speaker 1: thinking about this and that they're imagining that maybe they

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Speaker 1: could come up with the idea they could have that

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Speaker 1: moment of insight which explains deep questions about the universe.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of everybody, Welcome to our podcast Daniel and

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Speaker 2: Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we examine all those big questions about the

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Speaker 1: universe and take you to the forefront of what science

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Speaker 1: knows and what it doesn't know, and what it's hoping

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Speaker 1: you will email it to.

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Speaker 2: It because you know, I guess it turns out that

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Speaker 2: science doesn't know everything. There's a lot we don't know.

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Speaker 1: We know a tiny amount. We've only recently learned how

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Speaker 1: little we know about the universe, and so while it

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Speaker 1: might feel like a lot of the stuff around you

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Speaker 1: is understood, the fraction of the universe that we know

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Speaker 1: is very small and big, crazy new ideas await.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's sort of like the universe is still

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Speaker 2: up for grabs. You know, anyone out there could potentially

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Speaker 2: come up with the theory of everything, because we are

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Speaker 2: pretty far away from it right now.

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Speaker 1: We are very far away from it. In fact, if

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Speaker 1: you delivered it to me today in complete form, I

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Speaker 1: probably wouldn't understand. It would take like days, weeks, months

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Speaker 1: to digest it. It might require whole new branches of mathematics,

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Speaker 1: which I'm totally not familiar with and nobody has even

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Speaker 1: thought of. So even if aliens arrived and emailed me,

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Speaker 1: or you know, delivered in golden engravings the theory of everything,

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Speaker 1: it would take a while to understand it. I might

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Speaker 1: immediately dismiss it.

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Speaker 2: You mean, are you saying my handwriting is that bad?

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Speaker 1: Are you an alien? Are you admitting that? Finally?

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Speaker 2: I am a doctor technically, so I think we're required

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Speaker 2: to have bad handwriting, cryptic handwriting.

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Speaker 1: But the point is that the truth about the universe

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Speaker 1: might be something which is strange and weird and sounds

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Speaker 1: wrong on the surface, which makes us think about the

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Speaker 1: universe in a different way. And that's the difficulty, but

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Speaker 1: that's also the beauty of science, is that we follow

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Speaker 1: the data, we follow the clues, and eventually we get

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Speaker 1: to the right answer. It's amazing that the process works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so today on the program, we'll be tackling

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Speaker 2: something a new theory, a new clue about the universe

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Speaker 2: that just that it is super recent, is hot off

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Speaker 2: the presses it out and physicists are still sort of

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Speaker 2: scratching their heads and trying to think about whether or

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Speaker 2: not this is something that's actually true and described the universe,

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Speaker 2: or maybe it's something that's totally wrong.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It sort of came out of left field,

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Speaker 1: and it's a bold claim from a man famous for

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Speaker 1: bold claims, and you know, dropped like a nine hundred

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Speaker 1: pages of stuff on the physics community, and it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: that people are taking it seriously. He's not a physics professor,

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Speaker 1: but he's attracted the attention of a lot of top physicist.

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Speaker 2: Since to be on the program, we'll be asking the question,

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Speaker 2: did Stephen Wolfram come up with a theory of everything.

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Speaker 1: Well, he definitely came up with a theory. The question

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Speaker 1: is what's a theory of Does it describe our universe

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Speaker 1: or any universe, or does it even work at all?

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Speaker 1: And some listeners actually wrote in asking us to break

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Speaker 1: this down for them.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Daniel and Jorge, this is Cure from Chicago, and

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Speaker 4: I recently read about Stephen wolf From's physics project where

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Speaker 4: he's trying to come up with a fundamental theory of

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Speaker 4: physics that I know a lot of people have been

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Speaker 4: searching for for a long time, and it sounded really

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Speaker 4: interesting to me, but it was also a little bit

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Speaker 4: over my head. And you guys are really great at

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Speaker 4: explaining these kinds of things, so I was wondering if

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Speaker 4: you could maybe tell me a little bit about how

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Speaker 4: his theory works, how it's different from other theories that

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Speaker 4: are out there, and if you feel like it actually

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Speaker 4: has the potential to truly answer one of the great

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Speaker 4: mysteries of physics. Thank you, guys, and keep up a

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Speaker 4: great job.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to everybody who wrote in with those questions.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about Stephen Wolfrim because you know, I

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Speaker 2: know the name from my college days when I used

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Speaker 2: a program called Mathematica. But tell me, what do you

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Speaker 2: know about this person, Stephen Wolform.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Wilfrim is sort of a polymath. He's a

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Speaker 1: really smart guy. He graduated got his PhD at a

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Speaker 1: really young age. He studied particle physics. He worked with

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Speaker 1: Richard Feynman.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, he's a physicist.

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Speaker 1: He's a physicist for sure. Yeah. Oh he was a

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Speaker 1: professor at cal Tech.

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Speaker 2: Oh he was a professor.

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Speaker 1: He was a professor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I see you made it to own like maybe

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Speaker 2: like he wasn't a.

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Speaker 1: Profession No, no, I mean the guy was really smart.

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Speaker 1: He definitely has the chops. He's the youngest recipient of

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Speaker 1: the MacArthur Genius Award. He got it at age twenty one,

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Speaker 1: so it was pretty clear from a young age that

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Speaker 1: this guy had a brain on him.

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Speaker 2: And he's known for writing Mathematica, which is a software

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Speaker 2: that engineers and mathematicians used to simulate things right and

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Speaker 2: crunch equations and numbers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Mathematica is a beautiful piece of software. It does

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Speaker 1: a lot of the really gorgeous physics animations that you

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Speaker 1: probably see on Twitter and elsewhere, but it's also really

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Speaker 1: good for doing symbolic mathematics. Like, there's lots of ways

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Speaker 1: to get computers to do numerical calculations add these two numbers,

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Speaker 1: but it's much harder to tell a computer like take

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Speaker 1: this equation and simplify it. And Mathematica is really powerful

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Speaker 1: at doing that kind of stuff, and so it's really

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Speaker 1: the premier way to do math on the computer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty amazing d because it can do symbolic math,

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Speaker 2: which is not just number crunching, but like manipulating you know,

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Speaker 2: the concepts and symbols and functions.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And though he's gone off into founding a

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Speaker 1: company and becoming super rich and writing this software, he's

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Speaker 1: always had an interest in theory and in physics because

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Speaker 1: this is where he started.

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Speaker 2: That's where it is his hard way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where all of our hearts are.

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Speaker 2: Right, That's not where his money was pocket book was.

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Speaker 2: But so he always had a sort of a passion

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Speaker 2: for Anna and the chops and the background for it

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Speaker 2: to think about particle physics and things like the theory

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Speaker 2: of everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And there are a lot of famous people

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Speaker 1: who started out in physics and ended up, you know,

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Speaker 1: becoming super rich or started out with like deep mathematics

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Speaker 1: and went to Wall Street and became hedge fund gazillionaires.

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Speaker 1: You know, so these people do penetrate sort of the

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Speaker 1: wider culture. They don't know. We just stay in the

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Speaker 1: white halls of academia. But you know, they're always wondering.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, could I crack that problem? Or

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Speaker 1: you know, could I still contribute?

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Speaker 2: And I guess maybe you're saying he's unusual because he

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Speaker 2: sort of came up with this new theory of everything,

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Speaker 2: not from an office in a university. I guess that's

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Speaker 2: what's kind of unusual or at research center. It's like

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Speaker 2: he sort of did it on his own, in his house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he did it on his own, I mean, in

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Speaker 1: his company with a couple other folks. But he's not

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Speaker 1: part of a mainstream research.

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Speaker 2: Group, right, Like I see, he has a team.

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Speaker 1: He's a small team. He attracted some young students, one

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Speaker 1: at Cambridge and other places to work with him.

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Speaker 2: Honest, this is getting more legit by the second day.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, I feel like we started the

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Speaker 2: episode talking about like a crack butt, but I'm like,

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Speaker 2: oh man, I don't see the difference between this guy

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Speaker 2: and Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's a lot richer.

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Speaker 2: He's rich.

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Speaker 1: That's difference number one. But no, this is not like

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Speaker 1: you know, sheets of paper you found under the homeless

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Speaker 1: guy at the bus station. Right. This is a guy

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Speaker 1: who everybody respects as intelligent. But that doesn't mean necessarily

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Speaker 1: that he's always on the forefront of knowledge. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the guy's busy doing a lot of other things. It's

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Speaker 1: difficult to stay on the forefront of knowledge and to

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Speaker 1: keep up with academia and to understand the current ideas,

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Speaker 1: and if you're not part of the community of academia,

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Speaker 1: it's difficult to contribute. You know, some people think of

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Speaker 1: science as like a single minded pursuit of truth. That's true,

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Speaker 1: but it's also it's people, which means it's people having

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Speaker 1: a conversation, and.

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Speaker 2: It's cocktail parties, it's hanging out on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but it's also it's a big conversation and

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Speaker 1: people are talking about stuff. And if you're talking about

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Speaker 1: things nobody else is interested in or talking about, then

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Speaker 1: even if you're right, it's going to be hard to

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Speaker 1: attract their attentioncy So you have to speak the language

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Speaker 1: and you have to know how to talk to people

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Speaker 1: in order to get scientists to pay attention so you

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Speaker 1: can be totally right and understand the universe. But if

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Speaker 1: nobody will hear you or talk to you or understand

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, you can't really have any impact. So

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Speaker 1: there's this human side of science that I think is underappreciated.

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Speaker 2: It strikes me as not a good thing, though, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, I feel like it

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Speaker 2: strikes me as like, you know, people at a cocktail

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Speaker 2: party not wanting to listen to somebody else just because

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Speaker 2: they're not in their little group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be better if we had more people,

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Speaker 1: so we had more diverse ideas, we had more funding

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Speaker 1: for science, and if it was more accessible and more open. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it'd also be better if humans were like objective and

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Speaker 1: in ways to measure these things, you know, objectively, But

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Speaker 1: we can't. Right, Human science is done by humans for humans. Oh,

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Speaker 1: at least until the aliens come.

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Speaker 2: He had to press the alien button then, right, right, Well,

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Speaker 2: maybe Stephen Wolform is an alien. That seems very likely.

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Speaker 2: This guy seems too good to be true.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, maybe this is the aliens coming to

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Speaker 1: give us the ideas. Right, you're saying Stephen wolfrom his

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Speaker 1: beans down.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: He just went from crackpot to respectable physicists, to alien

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Speaker 2: to maybe the next the second Coming. Where will this

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Speaker 2: end up? Danny?

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Speaker 1: But this is unusual. It's very weird to have somebody

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Speaker 1: outside of academia, even somebody who used to be a professor,

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Speaker 1: come back and try to contribute. Often these ideas are

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Speaker 1: not given any attention, So it's unusual to happen, and

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Speaker 1: it's unusual that it has gotten so much attention.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, So okay, So he's sort of been working on this,

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Speaker 2: apparently with the team for a while, and he came

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Speaker 2: up with a theory of everything, and he sort of

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Speaker 2: popped into the cocktail areadyophysicists and dropped the huge pile

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Speaker 2: of paper saying I got it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And there was a little bit of a hint

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Speaker 1: that this move was going to happen, because about twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago almost he wrote a mammoth tome called A

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Speaker 1: New Kind of Science, in which he unveiled the way

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Speaker 1: he thinks about science. And you can tell from even

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Speaker 1: just the title of the book A New Kind of Science,

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Speaker 1: that he thinks very highly of himself and his own

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Speaker 1: work and its.

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Speaker 2: Importance how would you have called it, Daniel, a possible

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Speaker 2: new kind of science, a suggestion for a new kind

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Speaker 2: of science.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I am a strong believer in humility.

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Speaker 1: I value that a lot, and I think that's sort

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Speaker 1: of the conclusion you'd leave for other people to draw.

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Speaker 1: You know that you've invented a new kind of science.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of the criticisms of that book is

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Speaker 1: that there's a lot in there. It's like twelve hundred pages,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of it is not actually that new.

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Speaker 1: He's not always either familiar with the existing work in

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Speaker 1: the field and sort of reproduced it and claimed it

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Speaker 1: as his own. And some of the stuff is actually wrong.

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Speaker 1: So there's a danger to working all on your own

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Speaker 1: in your own ivory tower and then delivering a twelve

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Speaker 1: hundred page tome is that you know, you can make

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Speaker 1: mistakes early on, and you could have benefited from some

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Speaker 1: notes notes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it made sort of a splash last week.

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Speaker 2: And so physicists you were telling me, are still sort

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Speaker 2: of going over his theory. But there's been sort of

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Speaker 2: a big initial reaction. People on the internet have reacted

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Speaker 2: to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so he's sort of a famous guy and

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Speaker 1: people give him attention, and so he captured the world's attention,

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Speaker 1: especially the attention of physicists, when he announced back on

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Speaker 1: April thirteenth that he had a model for everything in

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Speaker 1: the universe space, matter and.

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Speaker 2: Whatever and whatever, wow and whatever. That's his technical term.

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Speaker 1: And he put out a really long blog post and

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Speaker 1: a video and then submitted a couple of sort of

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Speaker 1: academic style papers to journals for review. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: physicists have been trying to digest it. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm part of this community, and everybody's been talking about it.

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Speaker 1: Have you read it? What do you think? And there's

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Speaker 1: sort of a you know, there's strong reactions to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you collected a couple of reactions from Twitter

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Speaker 2: about physicists or well known physicists who have sort of

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Speaker 2: commented on this potential discovery.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so, for example, Sabine Haustenfelder, she's a physics

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Speaker 1: theorist and she's also famous for being sort of an

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Speaker 1: alt theory consultant. She's the one that runs that program

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Speaker 1: where you can email her your theory and you'll get

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Speaker 1: like half an hour with an actual particle physicist to

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Speaker 1: give you opinions. On it.

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Speaker 2: Did Wolfram consult with there I don't.

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Speaker 1: Think so, because she says I looked at it and

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I spent five minutes with it.

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Speaker 1: I think she dug into it. And then there are

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Speaker 1: other folks like Sean Carroll. He's a famous science popularizer

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Speaker 1: and you know he's also a theorist working at the

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Speaker 1: forefront of knowledge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you have here that Sean said, I'm in

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Speaker 2: favor of taking swings at fundamental physics with wildly non

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Speaker 2: standard ideas and seeing what happens. Most such efforts will

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Speaker 2: inevitably fail, but the payoff is huge if you hit

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Speaker 2: the target. Yeah, all right, Well, it sounds like people

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Speaker 2: are not embracing this right away, but keeping an open mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people are sort of hopeful, like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that would be awesome if you came up with a

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Speaker 1: grand new theory. At first glance, it doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: maybe it really accomplishes everything that Stephen Wolfram claims, Like

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Speaker 1: his claims are really broad and very grand, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure he really delivers. But it's going to take

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Speaker 1: the community a little bit of time to read these

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Speaker 1: papers carefully and to digest them properly.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's get into what this idea that

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Speaker 2: Stephen Wolfram just dropped on the physics community, and let's

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Speaker 2: talk about how that describes the universe. But first, let's

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Speaker 2: take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: All right, Daniel Stephen Wolfram, famous millionaire philanthropist, mathematica code

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Speaker 2: writing genius, just drop on the fitnest community a theory

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Speaker 2: of everything. And so let's first talk about what this

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Speaker 2: theory is because I'm super curious, and then we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about whether it actually describes the universe we live in.

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Speaker 2: So what's the basic idea? Daniel here?

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Speaker 1: So the basic idea is one that I like. It says,

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Speaker 1: let's look at this really complex, vast universe with all

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Speaker 1: these different kinds of things in it at different scales,

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Speaker 1: you know, from little particles up to galaxy superclusters, and

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Speaker 1: let's try to explain all that using a simple set

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Speaker 1: of rules. You know. That's the sort of basic principle

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Speaker 1: behind particle physics. Right. You could just describe the universe

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Speaker 1: as like it is, this is what it is, but

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Speaker 1: we're seeking a reductionist answer. We want to pull it

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Speaker 1: apart and explain everything in terms of something underneath that

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Speaker 1: drives it. Right, And you know, we've had success with

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Speaker 1: stuff like that, Like you look at the periodic table

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Speaker 1: and you discover that all the patterns in the periodic

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Speaker 1: table come out of very simple rules for how electrons

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Speaker 1: fill their orbitals. So complex emergent phenomena can come from

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Speaker 1: a simple set of rules. That's the motivation, right, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that sort of how we've built all

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Speaker 2: of our science theories. I mean it's all based on

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Speaker 2: like simple particle interactions that then you know, accumulate, and

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Speaker 2: then that's how the universe exists.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And Stephen Wolfrom likes a particular kind of

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Speaker 1: this theory. They're called cellular automata. And the idea is

440
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 1: just take a couple of basic objects and a couple

441
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 1: of basic rules for how they can interact, and from

442
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 1: that you can get really complex behavior. Yeah. Like, there's

443
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 1: a guy who recently passed away named John Conway who

444
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: devises this thing called the Game of Life, who show

445
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,679
Speaker 1: that you can devise a really simple game based on

446
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: just like black and white squares and a few simple rules,

447
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: and really complex patterns emerge, patterns that look a little

448
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 1: bit like how life looks.

449
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm guessing that cellular automats at this concept

450
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: is not related to cells like human cells, like biological cells.

451
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 2: It's more like a mathematical term.

452
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a little basic object. And you can

453
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 1: also think of them as like nodes and so, you know,

454
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: like a little dot. And the idea is just like,

455
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: have a little very simple thing and write down simple

456
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 1: rules for what it can do, and then study the

457
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: behavior as you go to a zillion of these things,

458
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 1: or you take them a zillion steps forward, and you

459
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: discover that you can get from very simple things emerge

460
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: complex behaviors. That's what the game is Life is all about.

461
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 2: Oh I see, so is the idea that he's sort

462
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: of approaching it from the bottom up instead of the

463
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: top down, you know, like you know, physicists, like what

464
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: you do is you take regular big stuff and you

465
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: break it apart and you sort of see what it's

466
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 2: made out of. Is he saying that maybe a better

467
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: way to approach the theory of everything is to start like,

468
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: let's let's, uh, let's see if we can guess what

469
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: the smallest thing does, and then let's build it up

470
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: to see if.

471
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 1: It works absolutely. And in that sense, it's very similar

472
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: in motivation to string theory. String theory says, maybe the

473
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: whole universe is a bunch of title vibrating strings, and

474
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: here are the rules for how those strings interact. Can

475
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: we then build up the universe that we know and

476
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: the physics that we've discovered from those simple rules. Very

477
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: similar motivation, very similar approach.

478
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 2: But it's not the same as string theory.

479
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: It's not.

480
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: No, okay, So how is it different? How does that?

481
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 2: How does this theory describe the universe? Like, what's what's

482
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 2: he actually doing here?

483
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 1: So what he's actually doing is he says, let's begin

484
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 1: with a couple of nodes. So he makes his graph

485
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: where he says, I have a couple of nodes and

486
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: I connect them with lines.

487
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 2: Of what of space, of matter, of energy?

488
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: Just mathematically pure right, so far we're just mathematically peer.

489
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: Just like draw a dot in your mind and another

490
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: dot and put a line next to them.

491
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: Man, start start with like total abstraction.

492
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: Just in the beginning of what is a dot? In

493
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: the beginning, there was nothing. And Stephen Wilfrom created a dot,

494
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: he said.

495
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 2: And he just went from alien to God, let there

496
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 2: be created from the second Coming to the actual Father himself.

497
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 1: Well, he's sort of imagined. That's the point, you know,

498
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: not to be God, but to imagine from what is

499
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: the universe originated? What is the basic element of it?

500
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: You know, if you wanted to build the universe, what

501
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: is the essential source code? And he would like if

502
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: the essential source code of the universe was just two

503
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: or three lines that you just run a zillion times.

504
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: So he's saying, let's build up the universe from scratch,

505
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: and let's start with this a little bit of math

506
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: and code. Yeah, and see what happens, and see if

507
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: it ends up, if you pile it on, if it

508
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: ends up into you know, funny and interesting podcast about exactly.

509
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: And he's hoping that if you start from very simple

510
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: rules and you build up a structure, then you could

511
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: then recognize in that structure familiar rules of physics the

512
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: things in our universe, because that would tell you that

513
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: maybe those are then the simple rules of our universe.

514
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: So he starts with, you know, a couple of dots

515
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: and a line, and he says, all right, just pick

516
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: a random graph, it doesn't really matter. Make four dots

517
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: and draw some lines between them. He just know how

518
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: it begins, and then make up some rules like say, well,

519
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: if two things are connected to the same thing, then

520
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, you can add a line between them, or

521
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: you can add a new node, or you can add

522
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: a thing whatever. Just make up some simple rules rule.

523
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: It's kind of like a simple game like go or

524
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: Othello or checkers.

525
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. You need a basic starting point and then

526
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: you need an update rule that says how you can

527
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: change the graph, how you can grow it. And so

528
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: that's the whole idea is, you know, maybe the universe

529
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: starts from a structure like that, And then he takes

530
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: it and what he did with his team was make

531
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 1: up some of these simple graphs and develop them, you know,

532
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: a million times, a billion times with his very powerful

533
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: mathematical lane, which and visualize them. And then he looked

534
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: at them and he asked, do I recognize in here

535
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: things from physics?

536
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 2: I see? So he started, He took a whiteboard with

537
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: his team there in his compound and drew four dots,

538
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: drew lines between them, and then did he did he

539
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: guess what these rules might be or did he have,

540
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: you know, a powerful computer, say all right, try to

541
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: come up with a Brazilian rules and see if any

542
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 2: of them come up to the universe.

543
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, he just guessed a few rules. And the kicker

544
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: is he didn't find a rule at works. Like. He

545
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: has a few examples, and in those examples he shows, oh,

546
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: there's some things in here that look like physics, and

547
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: that's what motivates him to think, Oh, maybe I'm on

548
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: the right track and we can dig into it a

549
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: little bit more. But he hasn't actually found a rule

550
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: that describes our universe.

551
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: Oh I see.

552
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: He's more like saying, maybe this approach will work.

553
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: Oh I see. Huh, So he hasn't He doesn't actually

554
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: have a theory yet of the universe. He just has

555
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 2: what he thinks might be a way to get to

556
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: the theory of everything.

557
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of like a recipe for a theory,

558
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: and theory is also a recipe for building a universe,

559
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: So sort of a recipe for a theory for a

560
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: recipe for the universe.

561
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: So now he's a cook as well. He's a chef

562
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: in addition to being god.

563
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: He's cooking up universes.

564
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: Man is see has a recipe for a theory that

565
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: might result in the universe.

566
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: That's right, And you know it's more than just like, hey,

567
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: maybe this will work. He sees some cool stuff in

568
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: these things that he builds up. You know, for example,

569
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: you take these graphs and you have a few rules

570
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: and you let them run and they build up interesting things,

571
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: Like some of them build up what look like three

572
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: D space, you know, like a mesh, a mesh, you know,

573
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: a nicely organized mesh that you could say, hey, maybe

574
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: space is quantized. And we've talked about how maybe space

575
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: is just an emergent phenomena and it's you know a

576
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: bunch of dots connected together.

577
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, if we have an episode about quantum pham.

578
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, quantum foam, and you know, the pixelated universe, and

579
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: so that's sort of the leap to physics. He's saying,

580
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm coming up with this mathematical concert and then without

581
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: building it in, without saying please build space, just letting

582
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: it run. He sees that it that from it emerge

583
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: things he recognizes, like a structure you could identify with space.

584
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: How can you, boy, how can you get three dimensions

585
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 2: three dimensional space out of some dots? I guess that's

586
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 2: my question.

587
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually his space is not three dimensions, which

588
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: is one of the problems. He makes a space which

589
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: is two point seven dimensions, which is pretty weird.

590
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: Actually that's pretty cool if you think about it. Fractional dimensions.

591
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: Fractional dimensions are cool, but I mean a little inconvenient, Like,

592
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: where are you going to put your stuff? You know,

593
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: you have three D stuff, It doesn't fit in two

594
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: point seven D space?

595
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: Well that do you Jesus describe my closet and everybody's closet.

596
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: I feel like my closet is made out of two points.

597
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: I know. I'm like, if you're going to do fractional

598
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: dimensions two three and a half, at least you know,

599
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: give us some extra don't just you know, lose point

600
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: three dimensions. These days, everybody needs more rooms, some.

601
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: Of us need a little extra space. You know, that

602
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 2: would have.

603
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: Been nice, that'd be a good selling point for the theory.

604
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 2: So he he runs this idea and he you know,

605
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: grows it, sort of lets it grow itself, right, that's

606
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 2: kind of the idea. And you're saying, he's he gets

607
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: some things that maybe look like what might be space

608
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: and also other things, right.

609
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he identifies, you know, this mesh with a

610
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: higher dimensionality space, and I encourage you to look up

611
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: his blog posts. There's some really nice visualizations there, and

612
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: you can understand how he goes from like a mesh

613
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: of points to imagining the dimensionality of that points. Essentially,

614
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: he's thinking about like the density of points as you

615
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: move away from a central point, Like in three dimensions,

616
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: the density of points, you know, drops in a certain way,

617
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: and two dimensions, the density points drops in another way.

618
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: So just by measuring like how many points there are

619
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: as you take five or six steps away, then you

620
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: can sort of measure the dimensionality of the space. But

621
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: it's a leap, you know, Like this is a mathematical construct.

622
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: It has some relationship to some things we see in

623
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: the universe. Does that mean is how the universe works?

624
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: Like that's a kind of a deep philosophical question, right.

625
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: I guess my question maybe at this point is how

626
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: does it differ from some of the other theories that

627
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: we've talked about, like quantum foam And is he coming

628
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: at it totally from the left field or is he

629
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: sort of saying, maybe these ideas have some validity to them,

630
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: but I have my own spin on it.

631
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's one of the problems with his work

632
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: is that he doesn't really put it into the context

633
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: of existing ideas. And as you say, people have been

634
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: thinking about quantized space as a building block of the

635
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: universe and trying to go from there to recovering Einstein's equations,

636
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: for example, and that's tricky people who've been working on

637
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: for ten twenty years and they haven't quite gotten there yet.

638
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: Whereas he's starting from a slightly different point. He's not saying,

639
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: let's start from building blocks of space. He's like, let's

640
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: just start from these nodes from which we get space

641
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: and then from which we also get time and general

642
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: relativity and quantum mechanics on all this stuff. He's going

643
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: a level deeper He just blew my mind to have

644
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: gone even further than everybody else has gone. You know,

645
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: he's starting deeper and he's claiming to have gone further.

646
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: So you understand why there's a little bit of skepticism

647
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: that he could have accomplished all this by himself with

648
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: a couple other people while also running a big company.

649
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: Right, well, if he's an alien chef second coming, it's

650
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: totally possible. But yeah, he just made me realize. It's

651
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: like he's trying to go from thoughts and a whiteboard

652
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: to time itself and pays.

653
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: Itself to time itself. Yeah, and a lot of this

654
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: stuff is interpretation. Right. You look at this structure in

655
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: the graph that comes out and you say, oh, that

656
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: looks to me like time. All right, it looks to

657
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: you like time, But maybe you were looking for time,

658
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: you know. Would you have deduced this just from looking

659
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: at it? Would you have found Einstein's equations on your

660
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: own without Einstein? Or you just sort of like looking

661
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: at a room full of typing monkeys and saying, hey, look,

662
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: this one's typing Shakespeare. Therefore, typing monkeys is the way

663
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: to write great literature.

664
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: Right, Well, that strikes me as a little bit of

665
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: what you guys do in a way, right, like theories,

666
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: just like you know, not to equate physicists theories with monkeys,

667
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: but you know, you guys start throwing out theories and

668
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: then the experimentallys have to see which ones work.

669
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, experimentalists have to see which ones work. That's the

670
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: critical test here. You know, there's a lot of these

671
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: different spaces and the fact that some of them can

672
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: reproduce theories we already have and that have been tested

673
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that this is the fundamental structure of

674
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: the universe. Right, There's lots of ways to reproduce physics theories.

675
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: I could just have monkeys type and occasionally they would

676
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: reproduce physics theories. Doesn't mean that the universe is a bunch.

677
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: Of monkeys, Remember, Daniel, keep an open mind.

678
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 1: Maybe it is.

679
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, maybe it's a monkey.

680
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: Maybe it is.

681
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 2: Right, we meet the monkeys.

682
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: It's monkeys all the way down.

683
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: All right, let's get into whether people think this theory

684
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: actually works or whether it's so out there that nobody

685
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: is taking it seriously. But first, let's take a quick break.

686
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

687
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt. You're probably

688
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

689
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: but the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

690
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

691
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

692
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

693
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

694
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

695
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

696
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy

697
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

698
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

699
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

700
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

701
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

702
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

703
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

704
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

705
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 6: Hey, I'm Bruce Bosi on my podcast Table for two.

706
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 6: We have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best

707
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 6: guest you could possibly ask for, people like David Duchovny.

708
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: You know in New York's have a reputation is being

709
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: very tough, but it's not. It's not that way at all.

710
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: They're very accepting.

711
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 6: Jeff Goldbloom, Are you saying secret fries, secret fries, that's

712
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 6: what you're saying. Yeah.

713
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: And Kristen Wigg I just.

714
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: Became so aware that I'm such a loud cheer.

715
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: My husband's just like sometimes I'll be eating and he'll

716
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: just be looking at me. I'm like, I'm just eating,

717
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: like I don't know how else to two. Table for

718
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: two is a bit different from other interview shows.

719
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 6: We sit down at a great restaurant for a meal

720
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 6: and the stories start flowing. Our second season is Aaron

721
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 6: right now, so you can catch up on our conversations

722
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 6: that are intimate, surprising, and often hilarious. Listen to Table

723
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 6: for two with Bruce Bozi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

724
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 6: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

725
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 7: Hey, everyone, this is Jimmy O'Brien from john Boy Media.

726
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 7: I want to quickly tell you about my podcast. It's

727
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 7: called Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday and

728
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 7: for about thirty minutes, I dive into three topics in

729
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 7: Major League Baseball that I am interested in breaking stories, trends, stats,

730
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 7: weird stuff. Sometimes I make up my own stats. Sometimes

731
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 7: I do a lot of research and it ends up

732
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 7: I was wrong the whole time. So that's something you

733
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 7: can get in on. Use Jimmy's Three Things podcast to

734
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 7: stay up to date on Major League Baseball and to

735
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 7: make you just a smidch smarter than your friend who's

736
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 7: a baseball fan. You listen to me and then you

737
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 7: go tell him, hey, I know this and you don't.

738
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 7: So I make you smarter than your friends. That's what

739
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 7: Jimmy's Three Things is all about. Listen to Jimmy's Three

740
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 7: Things on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

741
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 7: your podcasts. You could also find it on the Talking

742
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 7: Baseball YouTube channel, and new episodes drop every Tuesday.

743
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: All right, Daniel, talk to me about two point seven

744
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: dimensional space. That is still blowing my mind. How can

745
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: you have two like fractional dimensions? Is it that like

746
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: one of them is not quite a dimension.

747
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: Well, he doesn't really have any spatial dimensions at all, right,

748
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: it's just points and lines. He just connects the points

749
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: with lines, and he tries to make an analogy to dimensions.

750
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: He says, if you take a point and I walk

751
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: four points away, right, I walk four points away in

752
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: every direction, then I can count sort of how many

753
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: points are in that object. You can take paths away

754
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: from that point in every direction. You can ask how

755
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: many points are within four steps away, and how many

756
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: points are within ten steps away and fifteen steps away,

757
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: And that grows differently if you're in three dimensional space

758
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: or two dimensional space or four dimensional space. So he's

759
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,479
Speaker 1: taking that as a measure of dimension. Right, it doesn't

760
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: have many dimensions built in. You could take his whole

761
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: hypergraphs and just lay them flat on a piece of paper,

762
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: or you could spread them out out in three D.

763
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: It's totally arbitrary. There's no place to hang these things, right.

764
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: They don't have locations, They just have relationships. But he's

765
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: contending that from these relationships there is a structure, and

766
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: that structure is very similar to dimensionality.

767
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: To the relationship that things have in actual space.

768
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: Physically, yes, yes, exactly. So you know, volume grows with

769
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: are cubed for a sphere, area grows like are squared

770
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: for a circle. Right in four dimensions, things grow with

771
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: a different dependence. And so he just asks, as I

772
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: take steps away from a single point, what's the density

773
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: of points? And that's my measure of the dimensionality of

774
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: my space. And he doesn't get a number of two

775
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: or three. He gets this weird two point seven, and

776
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,879
Speaker 1: so you're like, what what does that even mean?

777
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: If you roup you get three, so that you know

778
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: that's not you know, fluch.

779
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: Factory physics is like hand grenades and horseshoes as long

780
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: as you get close.

781
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: Well, you make an interesting point, which is that you know,

782
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: if just because something does something the way that you

783
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 2: see it doesn't mean that it's how things are kind

784
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: of like, you know, just because you can build an

785
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence, for example, or like a function that spits

786
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: out or happens to simulate how a ball gets tossed

787
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: up in the air, doesn't mean that that's how the

788
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: universe works, that the balls float through the air. According

789
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: to an AI.

790
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there's two different issues here. One

791
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: is exactly what you just said, you know, you can't

792
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: just identify similar behavior and say that's the truth. But

793
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: that's actually a really hard philosophical problem. Like, if you

794
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 1: have a theory of strings that completely describes the universe,

795
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: does that mean that strings are real? I mean, and

796
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: somebody asked us this question over Twitter just yesterday. They said,

797
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: what if I had an alternative theory of bananas and

798
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: it also described the universe and you could never tell

799
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: the difference between strings and bananas, would that mean that

800
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: bananas are also a valid theory of the universe? And

801
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 1: which would be true? Oh?

802
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: I see, if you have two theories that both describe

803
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: the universe, how do you tell which one's true or

804
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: the right one?

805
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you can't tell the difference, if they're

806
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: like both make exactly the same predictions, but they have

807
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: very different descriptions of what's really happening, then which one

808
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: is what's really happening? Well, the answer is, we can't tell.

809
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: And so it depends on what you think true means.

810
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: You know, is there some untestable, actual truth in the

811
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: external universe or is it really just about describing what

812
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: we see? So that's sort of a deep unanswerable philosophy question.

813
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: But there's a there's a more practical angle to it,

814
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: which is, can you do more than just describe what

815
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: we already see? Can you predict something we haven't yet seen? Right,

816
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: It's very easy to look in a sea of garbage

817
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: and pick out something sparkling, like, look, I produced one diamond,

818
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: or something.

819
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: Like my theory, my simulation, my code predicts how this

820
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: ball will what this ball will do if I toss

821
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: it up in the air. But that's sort of not

822
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: interesting to physicis yeah, like.

823
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: We have all these everything that he's derived we already have.

824
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: We have Einstein's equations, we have special relativity, we have

825
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. Right, the question is has he revealed any

826
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: new insights that he made any predictions. If his theory

827
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: is really true, it should predict something. It should say

828
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: in the universe also works in this other way that

829
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: you hadn't yet realized, and then we can go out

830
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: and verify that and be like, oh, well, then maybe

831
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: your theory is true. Right. It's not just enough to

832
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: say to describe the universe, because my hundred typing monkeys

833
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: will eventually do that also, but they will generate nonsense predictions.

834
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: They don't tell me anything about the universe. I don't

835
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: already know.

836
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: You just have to give those monkeys more bananas. I

837
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: mean that that would make it all work. But it

838
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 2: sort of sounds like maybe what he's doing that's new

839
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: and interesting is he's actually sort of making that connection

840
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: between a really simple set of things to the complex things.

841
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: You know, Like, you know, string theory has been around

842
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: for a long time, but nobody has tried to build

843
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: up the universe using strings, have they. It's like maybe

844
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: he's sort of done that and is seeing things that

845
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 2: are promising.

846
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: Well, that's one problem with string theory is that you

847
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: can take strings and build up universes, but you get

848
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: like ten to the five hundred different kinds of universes,

849
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: and ours is one of them, but it doesn't necessarily

850
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: predict ours. Right, So then you ask, well, if the

851
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: universe is just strings, how can we end up in

852
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: this universe? And he is basically the same problem, right.

853
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: He has a potent a lot of potential possible rules

854
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: for building up the universe using his hypergrafts. Some of

855
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: them lead to universes sort of like ours, though you know,

856
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: wrong number of dimensions et cetera. But some of them don't,

857
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: and so you know, we're sort of in this vast

858
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: sea of outcomes. It would be much more compelling if

859
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: he had a basic set of rules that necessarily led

860
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: to our universe that there was nothing else that could predict,

861
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 1: like it had to only be this way. That would

862
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: be much more compelling.

863
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: That would be better maybe, but maybe not even true

864
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: or possible, Like maybe the universe is just this random

865
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: set of rules.

866
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: Oh man, that what do we even doing? Right? If

867
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: the universe is not understandable. But I know, I hope

868
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: it is.

869
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: I get it.

870
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: I don't give up. I don't give up. I'm still hoping.

871
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: And so it's totally valid to look for a new

872
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: way to build things up from scratch. And maybe he's right,

873
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: and it would be deep insights if he was. But

874
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: you know, it hasn't really shown any new insights yet,

875
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: hasn't really shown us anything new that can come from it.

876
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: And there's also a lot of questions about the sort

877
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: of the connections he's made between what his theory can

878
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: do and what we've already discovered.

879
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: I see, well, maybe it stepped me through some examples

880
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: of what you mean here because you know, you were

881
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: telling me earlier that in some ways his model, his

882
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: theory of the universe sort of predicts causality and things

883
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: like special relativity and particles. Is that not sort of

884
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: interesting or.

885
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: It's interesting and it's a good idea, but it's not

886
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: clear that it predicts it, or if he's just sort

887
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: of like identifying something in his structure which looks a

888
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: little bit like it and it's sort of wishful connections. Right,

889
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of leaps here where he's like, oh,

890
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: look at this sort of structure dot here's Einstein's equation,

891
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: And you're like, well, hold on a second. You know,

892
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: I can write down Einstein's equation on a chalkboard. Doesn't

893
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: mean that it's a necessary consequence of what I've just done.

894
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: But there are some cool connections, for example, causality. He

895
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: takes his little hypergraphs and his little rules for updating them,

896
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: and his picture those rules for updating them. That's time.

897
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: Every time you change your hypergraph by following these rules,

898
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: that's like a step forward in time. And he shows

899
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: that for some simple examples, it doesn't really matter which

900
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: order you apply these rules in, Like maybe you apply

901
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 1: them first to this node and then to that node,

902
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: and the other time you do it another direction. Sometimes

903
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: you end up in the same place no matter what.

904
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: Start from the same initial conditions, do things in a

905
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: different order, end up in the same place. And so

906
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: for him, that's causality that says, look, this first place

907
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: has to come before this other place, because in these

908
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: graphs you always start with one and end up at

909
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: the other. So that's where causality comes from.

910
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 2: He sees behavior in this graph, you know, he sees

911
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: shades of what might if maybe you look into it,

912
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: or if you sort of maybe keep going with this,

913
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: you might sort of rediscover or create causality and special

914
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: relativity and particles.

915
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly the way. You know. I sometimes listen to

916
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: my children's random thoughts and say like, oh, wow, look

917
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: you you're a genius. You just had some great idea.

918
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: You know, you can recognize in random babbling, you know,

919
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: great ideas if you're hopeful, right, And so there's a

920
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: little bit of that, like, well, yeah, you could have

921
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: said that, but are you just imposing on very complex

922
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: structures the things you wanted to see? So that's one example.

923
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: Another is he tries to describe particles. And he says, Okay,

924
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: in this case, if space is this mesh of points, right,

925
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: then what is matter? How do you get matter in

926
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: this measure points? And so what he does is he says, well,

927
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: maybe matter, maybe particles are these special connections between these points,

928
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 1: these you know, arrangements between these points. Like every time

929
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: you have three nodes with these particular connections between them,

930
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 1: you call that a particle. And he's tried to show

931
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 1: that sometimes these particles are stable configurations, like if they exist,

932
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: they will continue to exist, and they will move across

933
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: the graph. So they're like patterns in these connections.

934
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: The relationship between nodes sort of moves in the way

935
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 2: that maybe a particle would move through space.

936
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, recognize the relationship and see that relationship sort

937
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: of translate itself across the graph. That would be what

938
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: a particle would be.

939
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: Wow, I'm getting the picture of, you know, having the matrix.

940
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: At the end, Neo sees the code behind the universe.

941
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is how he was feeling. He's like, oh,

942
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: I can see the whole universe. It's just a whole

943
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: bunch of notes. Yeah, I am. Keanu reeves again, if

944
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: it worked.

945
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: He hasn't actually made that work. He hasn't seen that

946
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: happen on his graphs. He's just sort of like, hey,

947
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: that would be cool. And he's mentioned that, you know,

948
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: they're going to follow up on that in a couple

949
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: of weeks and hope to figure that out. And I'm like, yeah,

950
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,439
Speaker 1: I'd like to figure out particle physics in a couple

951
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: of weeks too.

952
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, why didn't he just wait a couple of weeks

953
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: before publishing this?

954
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of that. There's like, Okay, well

955
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: you have some cool ideas, you have some notions here,

956
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: you haven't really quite figured it out, so why now?

957
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: Well, maybe a question is he's seen all these things time, causality,

958
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 2: particles in his you know, mesh of nodes. So is this,

959
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 2: you know, the mesh from one simple set of rules,

960
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: or is he like tweaking the rules every time and like, oh,

961
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: if I tweet this way, you get causality, If I

962
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: tweak them this way, you get space.

963
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: He identifies all these things from one simple set of rules,

964
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: but he's tried a few different rules, and he's tried

965
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: this rule and that rule and the other rule, and

966
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: he notices similar behaviors in a lot of these meshes,

967
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: which is cool and makes it more compelling, I see.

968
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: But again, he hasn't found the rule that he thinks

969
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: is convincing, and so one thing he'd like is for

970
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: everybody to participate. He has a website. You can go

971
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: and build a graph and enter a rule and see

972
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: what universe it builds. And he wants to sort of

973
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: like crowdsource the theory of everything, crowdsourcing making universes exactly.

974
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: We are all God.

975
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: That sounds like a smart god. He's like, God's like,

976
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: I'm tired, I'm out of ideas. I'll just get one

977
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: of my creations to help me create more creations.

978
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: Right, I'm just going to leave the recipe on the

979
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: counter here, and I want you to actually make the cookies.

980
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: All right. Well, it sounds sort of like, you know,

981
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: he's he's sort of a bit of an outsider, and

982
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: he's sort of maybe taking a huge leap forward without

983
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 2: bringing the rest of the community along. And there's some skepticism,

984
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: but it sort of sounds like his idea is not

985
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: too far off from what people are thinking or we're

986
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: looking for. It sounds like maybe he's just sort of

987
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: skipped a few steps, you know, in the procedures of physics.

988
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, he skipped a few steps in the procedures, which

989
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: is okay. I mean, if you deliver a five hundred

990
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: page treatise on the universe, it's a lot to swallow.

991
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: But hey, if it's true, thank you, right, thank you

992
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: skipped a few steps in his treatise. Like you read

993
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: it and you're like, well, well, how do you get

994
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: from here to there exactly? You know, And in this case,

995
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: he knows all the results in advance, and so he's

996
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: sort of like dot dot dot general relativity. You know,

997
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: you have to really show that it's the only consequence,

998
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: and I don't think he's really compellingly done that. The

999
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: way to do that, really compellingly would be to come

1000
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 1: up with a new theory, be like, okay, and here's

1001
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: dark matter or here's the dark energy, or this explains that,

1002
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: you know, what happened before the Big Bang or something,

1003
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: and then we could probe that and see that it's true,

1004
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: and wow, okay, maybe then the universe is just four

1005
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: lines of MATHEMATICA.

1006
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like maybe he is not quite there yet,

1007
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 2: but he's saying, look, it's promising you can sort of

1008
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: see space, you can sort of see time totally, and

1009
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: sounds like maybe the real answer is to be determined.

1010
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 2: In a couple of weeks, will out, Daniel, everyone will

1011
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: be stuck at home, but will know how everything works.

1012
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he has made it a prediction or two.

1013
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: You know, he thinks that the size of these high

1014
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: graphs is something like ten to the minus ninety three meters.

1015
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean the size of the little bananas of MAKEUPI.

1016
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the distance between these points in the node, right,

1017
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: the minimum distance, the basic unit of distance in his

1018
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: universe is ten to the minus ninety three meters, which

1019
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: is like almost impossibly small and hard to think about

1020
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: because remember, the smallest distance we've ever seen is like

1021
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: ten to the minus twenty meters, which is already like

1022
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: you know, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of a proton. And

1023
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: other people think the universe like the quantum loop theory,

1024
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: people think the universe is like ten to the minus

1025
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: thirty five meters is like the size of a space pixel.

1026
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: So this guy's like sixty orders of magnitude smaller. And

1027
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: so that's a prediction that's almost impossible to test.

1028
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: So is string theory kind of.

1029
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, so is strength theory. But strength theory, we think

1030
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: operates on the Plank scale. So it's only fifteen orders

1031
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: of magnitude away, you know, instead of being sixty or

1032
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: seventy orders of magnitude away.

1033
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: Right, it might be difficult to prove this. Ever, you're saying.

1034
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And you know, he imagines that there might

1035
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: be particles down at that little scale, and maybe those

1036
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: particles are even dark matter. Right, So I was saying

1037
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: earlier he should make predictions. All right, Well he has

1038
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: made this one, but it's sort of out of reach.

1039
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: This is not something we're going to test in a

1040
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: couple of weeks.

1041
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it could be that the

1042
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: real nature of the universe will never be able to grow.

1043
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: Man, you're really hoping for that, aren't you. You're just

1044
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: like Daniel, You're wasting your life. No, it's true.

1045
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: It's true that it's.

1046
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: True that the universe might not be understandable to humanity.

1047
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: It's true the universe might not be understandable, but for

1048
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: some weird reasons. So far, we've been making pretty good progress,

1049
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: which suggests that this method of science and our way

1050
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: of thinking is somehow aligned with the way the universe

1051
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: works or can be aligned, and so yeah, we'd like

1052
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: to keep doing it.

1053
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 2: We're all wishful thinkers.

1054
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: Not everybody thinks that we're wasting our time.

1055
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: All right, Well, well that's pretty interesting. I guess we'll

1056
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: find out in the future whether he's right or not.

1057
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: And in the meantime, I guess you can go online

1058
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: and read more about it and even make up your

1059
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 2: own universes.

1060
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: That's right. And you know, he's done a bit of

1061
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: an unusual PR campaign with his blog post and his

1062
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: videos and his announcements, but he's.

1063
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: A PR note for physics.

1064
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's also submitted some papers to journals and

1065
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: so they're being vetted by other physicists taking them seriously,

1066
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, peer review, and so that takes a little while,

1067
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: and so you know, stay tuned.

1068
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: He learned his lesson from two thousand and two where

1069
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 2: he just dropped a book.

1070
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: Well, no, he's also writing a nine hundred page book

1071
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: which we.

1072
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: Have very soon, I see, But he learned to post

1073
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: it on Twitter.

1074
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so stay tuned. You know, the top minds in

1075
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: the fields are thinking about this, and they will critique

1076
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: it and criticize it and find what's good and what

1077
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: remains to be worked on. But you're right, it could

1078
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: be the theory of everything. We just don't know yet

1079
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: and we might never know.

1080
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 2: Or it might come from somebody and not him, but

1081
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: somebody who is maybe listening to this podcast.

1082
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: That's right. So if you're working on your theory everything,

1083
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: take heart. You know, Stephen Wilfrim might not be right.

1084
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks so

1085
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 2: much for listening, See you next time.

1086
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain

1087
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Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a

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Speaker 1: piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking

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Speaker 1: about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy

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Speaker 1: industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to

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Speaker 1: find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and

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Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is us dairy tackling

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the

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Speaker 1: methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms,

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Speaker 1: towns and electric cars. Visit you asdairy dot COM's last

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Speaker 1: sustainability to learn more.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which

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Speaker 3: recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I

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Speaker 3: mean neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring

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Speaker 3: the three pound universe in our heads.

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Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life. Because the more we

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Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood, better we can

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Speaker 3: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

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Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 3: your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Parents looking for a screen free, fun and engaging way

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Speaker 1: to teach your kids the Bible.

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Speaker 5: As a mom, I was looking for the same thing,

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Speaker 5: so I created Kids' Bible Stories podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thousands of families are raving about it, and kids actually

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Speaker 1: request to listen. With captivating sound effects, voices, and an

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Speaker 1: apply section at the end of spark meaningful conversations, it's

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Speaker 1: a hit with both kids and parents. Listen to Kid's

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Speaker 1: Bible Stoice podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts,