1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Hashtag Matter is a production of Shonda Land Audio in 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: at the Door. This episode was brought to you in 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: collaboration with One Up, a social justice coalition working to 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: end police brutality, and there's two part documentary follow up 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: to Hashtag Matter, will consider unexamined repercussions, joined by some 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: of the nation's leading activists, historians, and thinkers. Maybe by 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: contextualizing our past, we can better define our future, a 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: future that includes an exciting new normal where we invest 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: in resources that build safe communities and healthy kids. Listen up, 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: your boy poo troll in the building, and this is 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: context matters. If you haven't listened to the previous episode, 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: I suggest you go back and listen before moving on here, 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: because it provides incredibly important historical context that brings us 15 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: to the present moment. I always say that I would 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: love to live in a world where police are like 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: pay phones. You know, we use them once upon a time, 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: and now we understand them differently, and we've taken the 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: phones into our own hands, quite literally, in our pockets. 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: And that's what I feel like we need to do 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: with the care and safety um that we have, we 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: need to it needs to be brought into our communities. 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: Kendrick Sampson, an actor and activists co founder of Build Power. 24 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: Dr Molinadul always talks about you know how when she 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: first moved to l A, she realized that every morning, 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: all of these what we would call old heads, elders 27 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: would come out and sit on the porch and it 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: was like clockwork, seven o'clock every day or something like that, 29 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: and she couldn't understand what was happening. And finally she asked, 30 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: and she said, the elder said, that's when the kids 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: go to school. That's their safety system, and they sit 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: and they watch. We don't need cops. What I saw 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: was a very beautiful, nurturing, airing system that worked. Nobody 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: was gonna mess with these babies while the elders were watching. 35 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: And there are systems like that that we can create. 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: Even that's happening. I think in Baton Rouge, where there 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: was a school where forty five dads got together and 38 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: and um fights and suspensions and all of that went 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: way way, way way way down because they knew they 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: had people that they respected and their dads and such 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: watching so and they did it in shifts. So and 42 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everyday people need to take even 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: more out of their time. We can have those resources. 44 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: Those resources now are tied up in astronomical budgets, and 45 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: those budgets are forty of all of the resources we 46 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: have in our city budgets. The death of Mike Brown 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: ushered in a new wave of activism, but the protests 48 00:02:54,600 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: themselves demonstrated just how extreme police budgets and militarizations have become. 49 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: Historian Elizabeth hit after Michael Brown's murder in two thousand fourteen, 50 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: those m wrap armored tanks roaming through the streets of 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: Ferguson that the Ferguson Police Department had on hand. People 52 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: were stunned that local police had these weapons that were 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: being used at the time in Afghanistan. And people said, oh, well, 54 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: this is surplus military transfers from the War on Terror. No, 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: this militarization has been happening for well over half a century. 56 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: It began when Johnson called the War on Crime and 57 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: six five in in large part to create a pipeline 58 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: where surplus military weapons that like tear gas and m 59 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: for carbine rifles and helicopters and armored tanks and and 60 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: bulletproof vests, wakie talkies, all kinds of new weapons and 61 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: technologies being used in Vietnam, and interventions overseas to local 62 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: law enforcement to fight black rebellion At home, Where are 63 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: our tax dollars going and how do they reflect what 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: we value? As a society, author, thinker, and speaker on 65 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: issues of identity and race in America in a world 66 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: with finite resources, when you're being told but often the 67 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: largest chunk of our funds need to go to locking 68 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: up people. If your youth, if your teenagers going through 69 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: a rough time and shoplifting or experimenting with some drugs, 70 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: you expect to be able to call a number and 71 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: get help. You expect that whoever they interact with is 72 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: going to say, this is a trouble kid who needs help. 73 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: You expect that if they are caught shoplifting in the stores, 74 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: and we see this in TV all the time, that 75 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: the store owner is gonna walk them home and say, 76 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: you know what, your kids in trouble, have them show 77 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: up on Tuesday and momp the floor for free. You 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: expect that if someone you love is in mental health crisis, 79 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: that you will be able to call a professional who 80 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: will come and get them health and safety that they need. 81 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: When we say, when my team is in trouble, what 82 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: he needs is intervention, What he needs is some guidance. 83 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: I need to make sure that whoever is called in 84 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: sees the humanity of my child. Instead the person responding 85 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: when your kids shoplifts should be trained to kill. That 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: is not anybody who sees the value in humanity and 87 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: our communities want. I think that, you know, there's so 88 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: much debate around the language of defund the police. And 89 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: I was talking with some friends, some colleagues of mine 90 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: who have been heavily involved in this work and in 91 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: times just even you know, six years ago, when we 92 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't say defund the police on a large platform, it 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a debate to have because people were scared of it. 94 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: And now this is a debate we're having, which I 95 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: think is important and I think is progress. That abolition, 96 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: first and foremost is tied to the understanding that our 97 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: police system are so called criminal justice system is not 98 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: only a descendant, but a continued justification of the idea 99 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: that those in power get to decide who has freedom 100 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: and who doesn't who is redeemable and who is it 101 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: based on the color of their skin, based on their disability, 102 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: based on their wealth and resources of their freedom, and 103 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: builds a story justifying that defund the police simply says, no, 104 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: this is not what I choose my money to go to. 105 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: This is not what we should be putting our resources into. 106 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: We don't believe that it makes people safer. We don't 107 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: believe that it's a way to live. We live in 108 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: a world where people who have been denied resources do 109 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: desperate things, and as long as those res persons are lacking, 110 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: those desperate acts will occur. And so we say, well, 111 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: what if we gave those resources, What if people weren't 112 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: so desperate. There have to be a lot of different 113 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: solutions from different approaches that we try. So one of 114 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: the things that we did to address these issues with 115 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: create a task Force on the Future of Community Policing. 116 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: And this task force was outstanding because it was made 117 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: up of all the different stakeholders. We had law enforcement, 118 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 1: we had community activists, we had young people. They held 119 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: public meanings across the country. They developed concrete proposals that 120 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: every community in America can implement to rebuild trust and 121 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: help law enforcement sociologists. Nikki Jones, I think there are 122 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: good examples right now of community driven efforts to redefine safety. 123 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: To think about non criminalizing ways that the govern can 124 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: in fact intervene. Policing is the most coercive way in 125 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: which they do that, but there are other ways that 126 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: they could provide support and resources. In summer, I thought 127 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: critically about how we could use the resources of the 128 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: university to provide to those who are on the front 129 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: lines of this battle, to to reimagine public safety, to 130 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: develop community alternatives. Uh. And so what I've been able 131 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: to do over working closely with a community partner to 132 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: bring research, expertise and energy of students in service of 133 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: building up the life affirming institutions that Abolition calls for 134 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: the project not of of of perfecting policing, but but 135 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: really strengthening communities and thinking about all the ways that 136 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: policy can be used to do that. And so if 137 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: I think about Oakland, there's a program where it trains 138 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: community members in crisis response. We know one of the 139 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: most volatile encounters is when police officers are interacting with 140 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: people who are experiencing crisis, particularly mental health crisis. UH. 141 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: And so what is it it mean to train a 142 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: broader swath of the community to respond to crisis. So 143 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: that's a key shift that came from this moment. UH. 144 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: And there are reasons why people coalesced around that. One 145 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: part is that law enforcement or certainly some law enforcement 146 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: officers or leaders agreed that their skills and expertise don't 147 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: align with mental health crisis. UH. And we're less resistant 148 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: to other people coming in. UM to that space where 149 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: you will get more pushback is with the anti violence, 150 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: the violence prevention efforts, because fundamentally, the police believe that 151 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: that is their domain. And so for me, when you 152 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: asked me about reform arms, one of the most important 153 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: is to directly confront the violence of policing UH and 154 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: to constrain the ability of police to use violence and 155 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: to do harm. And that is where the biggest battle 156 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: is going to be because when you think about what 157 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: police unions are defending, they're not necessarily defending the right 158 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: of officers to respond to mental health crisis. They're responding 159 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: to defending officers and their ability to use as much 160 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: violence as necessary in any encounter. Well, let me just 161 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: say that the police union is a lobbying arm of 162 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 1: the police department. That's their function, basically, retired Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey, 163 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: she spent twenty years in uniform and patrol on the 164 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: Los Angeles Police Department between nine and two thousand and 165 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: I know that some unions are stronger than others, are 166 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: more pres sive in terms of really going to the 167 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: mat for officers, many times errant officers. When you hear 168 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: the term the blue wall of silence, really all that 169 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: is is you know what the what the kids say 170 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: in the street. You know, snitches get stitches, and so 171 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: nobody wants to tell on somebody else, generally wholesale, because 172 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: when you report misconduct, there's a price to pay, and 173 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: that price could be something as simple as just being ostracized, 174 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: which is a real thing. It could be something as 175 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: serious as not getting back up if you ask for it. 176 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: Police chiefs, sheriffs and commissioners could stop all of these 177 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: errant behavior yesterday if they had an appetite to do that. 178 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: You can't have a Derek Chauvin on a police department 179 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,239 Speaker 1: over twenty years or nearly twenty years on the department 180 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: with as many personnel complaints as he had years on 181 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: the job and not have anything substantively be done to 182 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: him administratively to deter that bad behavior. If they wanted to, 183 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: they being command staff police chiefs, if they wanted to 184 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: stop the behavior, they absolutely could. Many police chiefs will 185 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: say that, you know, we can't get rid of these 186 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: guys because of the police unions, And that may very 187 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: well be true, because officers do have a right to 188 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: do process. But what a police officer is not guaranteed 189 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: is to work in patrol, to be in the field. 190 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: And I know this to be true from a personal 191 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: position that if a watch commander, if a captain wants 192 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: to take a police officer out of the field, they 193 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: can do it. They can tie them to a desk 194 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: for their entire career if they so chose. Just as 195 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: with anything, if something is allowed to go unchecked, then 196 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: it certainly has the potential to become a behemoth. Right, 197 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: whether it's crime or whether it's errant officers will return 198 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: after this break, we're back. This is context matters. Here 199 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: is Kendrick Sampson. So I think that when we're talking 200 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: about abolition in the in the world without police, people 201 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: hear what we're taking away and not what the vision 202 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: is the whole reason that the abolitionist movement exists is 203 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: to uproot all of those things that were intended to oppress. 204 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: Those systems that were built, that weren't ever held accountable, 205 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: They just had a new face. Those things need to 206 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: be uprooted. Just like any bad tree or weed that's 207 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: causing problems in any other garden. Uh, you uproot that 208 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: and you plant good seeds in that in that soil. 209 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: You don't hire a violent institution to keep you safe. 210 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: You institute systems that are meant for safety. That's it. 211 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: I don't think it's really hard. We just have to, 212 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, have those conversations, start building that that narrative 213 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: infrastructure for that narrative change that precedes culture, that precedes politics, 214 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: that builds the infrastructure that we actually need. Me Michael 215 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: Larocha t O Show, co founded Build Power to organize 216 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: people in the entertainment industry and to utilize their platforms 217 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: to shine a light on these incredible, extraordinary stories happening 218 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: all the time that we don't hear winds happening all 219 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: the time. One of the key tenants to oppression is 220 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: to suppress all of that good work. To say that 221 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: it's not happening. Hide it. And we're in the epicenter 222 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: of the biggest narrative industry, the mecca film and television, 223 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: right here in Los Angeles. Why don't we start to 224 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: build a program to organize folks. And we wanted to 225 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: demystify a lot of those things that people call radical 226 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: um that are really just logical solutions two problems that 227 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: people have been fighting for for centuries. And we want 228 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: to build a powerful community that is dead set on 229 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: making this world a much better place, a place that 230 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: we dream of where we know that those who are 231 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: currently marginalized and targeted can be centered and can thrive. 232 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: And now those people that we love, those transfolks, those 233 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: people who are um differently abled, who are deaf, blind, 234 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: who are elderly kids, you know, black, brown, dark skin, fat, 235 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: whatever their bodies look like. They are centered, they are valued, 236 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: and they have the resources that they need to have 237 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: autonomy over the wellness of their communities. We know that 238 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: that world is possible, and we know the people that 239 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: are leading that change, and we want to make sure 240 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: that we introduced them to and influence Hollywood and all 241 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: of the stories that are coming out of Hollywood. Because 242 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: they usually perpetuate harm and we want to make sure 243 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: that they perpetuate liberation. We have to change that narrative. 244 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: We have to change the narratives, and we have to 245 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: replace them with narratives that are true. Then you start 246 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: to literally build the future that you want to see. 247 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: What is the narrative around policing we're intersex race and 248 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: how can we reshape it again? Did when we think 249 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: of how whiteness is depicted in media, um we get 250 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: to see all sorts of whiteness. We get to see 251 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: the white charity worker, the white villain, you know, the 252 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: complicated white identity. We get to see white children, and 253 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: very rarely actually do we get to see black children 254 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: being children, being more than a tragedy or a troubled youth. 255 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: And it limits the ways in which we view people. 256 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: It limits the ways in which black people see themselves, 257 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: and absolutely limits the ways in which people who aren't 258 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: black see us and what we're capable of and the 259 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: range of emotions that we have and also how the 260 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: world impacts us. It creates this narrative that the white 261 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: experience in the United States is the default experience and 262 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: if a cop isn't is a bad cop. Usually they're 263 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: depicted as a lazy cop, a cop who isn't willing 264 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: to do what it takes to take down the perpetrator, 265 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: a coup that isn't willing to, you know, chase down 266 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: that evil villain, and not the ways in which bad 267 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: policing actually shows itself today, which is um police officers 268 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: who are very quick to see any black or brown 269 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: person learning their life as a possible threat or danger. 270 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: Oh you know, I think one of the most beautiful 271 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: things when I'm asked to really think about the future 272 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: is acknowledging that if if you actually invest in the 273 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: things that prevent crime, if you invest in the things 274 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: that build healthy communities, there is no way you can 275 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: actually have a police force that functions the way it does. 276 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: We have severely under resource sexual educators and rate prices clinics, 277 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: we have severely under resource mental health clinics, and you know, 278 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: UM suicide hotlines. We have severely under resource job programs 279 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: and training programs and schools. Maybe we just say we 280 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: take that budget and we put it there when we 281 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: take the things off the plate of cops that cops 282 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing. And I don't know who I don't 283 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: know any everyday people who honestly believe that someone trained 284 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: to kill needs to be giving you a twenty dollar 285 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: ticket when you don't can do a complete stop at 286 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: it stops, or that someone trained to kill needs to 287 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: be interacting with your child when they steal a pack 288 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: of candy from the corner store, or someone trained to 289 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: kill needs to be showing up at your door after 290 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: you've been sexually assaulted. So if we said we also 291 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that cops didn't kill people on 292 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: mental health checks, then that means that we would have 293 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: to have mental health training, that we would have to 294 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: have the escalation training. It would mean that we would 295 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: need to remove that deadly weapon that often escalates a scene. 296 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: It means that, you know, we would have to have 297 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: officers who specialize in these areas. More from Sergeant Cheryld Dorsey. 298 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: Officers need to be better trained. Officers need to undergo 299 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: a psychological evaluation, not just when you're hired, not just 300 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: when you're involved in a deadly use of force. But 301 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: I just say every two years, because police officers are 302 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: exposed daily, particularly patrol officers, every day to something that 303 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: is gnarly that could affect you in a way that 304 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: could alter your whole core. And police officers don't self report. 305 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: They're not gonna come in and ask for help because 306 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: it's not sexy, because you'll be hazed, because you'll be teased. 307 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: And so you have to compel officers every two years 308 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 1: to come in and crack open their head and just 309 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: look inside and if stuff is not working right, if 310 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: you can fix it, fix it, and if you can't, 311 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: help them onto a profession where their skill set is 312 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: better suited. Because every person who wants to be the 313 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: police should not be the police. They don't have the temperament. 314 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: I do know that here in California, Senator Bradford is 315 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: at least trying to have officers in California held accountable 316 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: when they do certain things. And and it's just this 317 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: side of ending qualified immunity, but it's a great baby step. 318 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: We too have an ownus, We have a responsibility. Sheriffs 319 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: are elected officials. District attorneys who don't want to prosecute 320 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: errant officers are elected officials. Judges who don't want to 321 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: give police officers a sentence commiserate with the crime that 322 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: they've been convicted of are elected officials, and that just 323 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: because someone runs from you, you don't get to shoot them. 324 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: I've had many many suspects during my twenty years run 325 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: from me. Just because somebody doesn't comply, doesn't come here, 326 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: doesn't turn around, says something that you find offensive, does 327 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: not give you the right to kill them. I have 328 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: been in fights with people, but guess what, I shot 329 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: no one in my twenty years. So I'm here to 330 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: tell you I've dealt with some of the baddest badass 331 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: I shot no one. So there's a way to do 332 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: this job. There's a way to take bad guys and 333 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: girls to jail, allow them to have their dignity and 334 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: survive even in non compliance. We are not to be 335 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: the judge, jury, and executioner day in and day out 336 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: as we patrol the streets of the city where we're employed. 337 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: I don't have a problem speaking truthfully. Um I know, 338 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: depending on what I say on any given day may 339 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: ruffle the feathers of activists if I'm saying something that 340 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: they deem as pro police, or certainly could ruffle the 341 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: feathers of the police because I'm giving away company secrets. 342 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: But I don't speak the way that I do because 343 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: I'm anti police, although I've been accused of that. It's 344 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: been a significant amount of my life doing what it 345 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: is that I do. I want to make things better, 346 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: I want to make things different. And if we don't 347 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: admit that there's a problem, that we have nothing to fix. 348 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: Nikki Jones, how do you provide safety for that young 349 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: person or or a vision that emerges from the needs 350 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: of that young person, not from the needs of politicians, uh, 351 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, be selected or elected. It's a deep project. 352 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: It's a deep project. And so the commitment has to 353 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: be to opening up and to thinking differently, and I 354 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: think particularly for white people, not exclusively from confronting the 355 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: way that your alignment with policing is part of a 356 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: racial the racial project of policing. Right, that the policing 357 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: is a white institution that is based on protecting in 358 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: part white people from the fear right uh, in their 359 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: imaginations of black people. That's part of it. Uh. And 360 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: so when you say you want more policing, and do 361 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: you want more of that? Some people do and that's real, 362 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: but some people don't. Uh. And if that's the case, 363 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: then they need to confront that and begin working towards 364 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people have been trying 365 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: to figure out what the protests in They are unprecedent 366 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: for a lot of us, and one of us in 367 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: our lifetime, I haven't seen protesting the United States to 368 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: that scale, and it was stunning to see. It was 369 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: stunning to see so many people marching for black lives. 370 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: It was stunning to see these conversations in the areas 371 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: of society that had so long been resistant. What that 372 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: will mean for us long term is to be determined. 373 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: If we continuously go back to the fact that we're 374 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: talking about systems, then that means that will only really 375 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: be able to see the effectiveness of these protests when 376 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: we see it in the systems. What I would love 377 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: is for able to say, what is happening in my town, 378 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: in my church, in my school, right what is happening here? 379 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: I want people to be curious about why things are 380 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: the way they are. How many kids of color in 381 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: your school are getting the education they need, are thragning, 382 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: how many are being sent to juvenile attention, how many 383 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: are being expelled or suspended? How many are being put 384 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: into special education when they don't have disabilities right? How 385 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: often is this happening in your neighborhood, in your town. 386 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: That's the comfort of the conversation of what people to have. 387 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: And then I want people to ask, where have I 388 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: been made a party to this? Where have I been 389 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: taught and incentivized to support this? And how do I stop? 390 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: And then for populations of color, especially black people, who 391 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: I think have been not only, of course, have we 392 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: survived so much for so many generations, but I would 393 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: say even this whole discussion has been is so brutal 394 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: when you're constantly asked to revisit your own trauma and humanization, 395 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: in your own unsafety in the world. I think that 396 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: we need to have a lot more conversations about what 397 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: healing and looks like and what joy looks like. This 398 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: work isn't easy. We may not always get it right. 399 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: We may make mistakes along in the way, but if 400 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: our intentions are aligned, we can and we will grow 401 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: from those mistakes. When we come together to protests, change policy, 402 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: and make demands of our leaders. We must always always 403 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: nurture the ground we're standing on in the present moment, 404 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: remember to celebrate each other, relish all that we're looking 405 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: to protect. This episode was brought to You by Shonda 406 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: land Audio and collaboration with One Up, a social justice 407 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: coalition working to end police brutality. Hashtag Matter is a 408 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart 409 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For 410 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: more podcasts from shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 411 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.