1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So we talked about 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: Adolph Larenz this week, who is is interesting, fascinating, troubling. 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: The thing that really struck me in doing research on 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: him was this whole controversy within the medical community and 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: how difficult it can be in a situation like that 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: to tease out the reality from all of the varying 9 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: and very vehement opinions. Right that, um I mentioned it, 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: they're even you know, within statements that criticized his work 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: also kind of contradicted themselves as saying, we already do 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: that work, and it's like wait, wait, wait, wait wait. 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: Um So that was like a fast, neating and tricky 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: part to me because I'm not a doctor. Might know 15 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: that might shock you, but I'm not. Uh, And it's 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: hard I think even I mean, you see it even 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: within the medical community for people to evaluate, because there 18 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: were some doctors who were like, no, he's great, what 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,279 Speaker 1: do you do him? And others who were really angry 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: about it, and and the public loved him, which adds 21 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: a whole other layer, because whether any of those people 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: criticizing or supporting him were conscious of it, they were 23 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: surely being impacted by the public opinion of him, and 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: by the fact that he was literally on the front 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: pages of papers all the time whenever he came right. 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: This is one of those cases where it's recent history 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: and it's still difficult to teach because you can't psychoanalyze 28 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: every single person, like even if and even if in 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: the moment you had psychologists standing by to do that work, 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: you would probably still not get a full picture. So 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: those are always interesting to me. I just realized, uh 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: so as we were talking in that in the episode, 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: I was talking about my grandmother who had scoliosis, and 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: I said that she had no treatment for it beyond 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: adjusting the hems of her skarts. I don't actually know. 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: It's totally possible that some time before I was born 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: she did have some kind of treatment, but the end 38 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: result was still that she had a pretty pronounced spinal 39 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: curvature that uh, you know, required her to alter all 40 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: over clothing. But then also I remember she was diagnosed 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: I think with mitral valve prolapse based on what the 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: blood flow rushing through her heart sounded like through as 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: a stethoscope. And it turned out that it was really 44 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: that her heart was tipped because of the curvature and 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: um and uh and so that was like a whole 46 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: process of like unexpected side effects. It also reminded me 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: of whichever, um I think it was Deanie. Was that 48 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: the Judy Bloom book that was about scoliosis. Don't remember, 49 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: I was like a snooty child who didn't read Judy Bloom. 50 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: I was like busy with other things. And let me 51 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: just tell you, as an adult, no, no shade of 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: Judy Bloom, and there as a kid, I had this 53 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: weird bias against it, like that's what all of the 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: mainstream girls read that are not intellectuals. I'm not, which 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: is just what a pretentious little weasel I was, and 56 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: in some ways continue to be. Yeah, well I just 57 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: google it on my phone and yes, that is Deany 58 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: by Judy Bloom, a book that I probably read more 59 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: than once because since scoliosis runs in families really often, 60 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: like I was constantly being monitored to see how my 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: spine was doing, um and so like this was a 62 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: book that I read a lot in my teen years 63 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: as I was going through that uncertainty. Yeah. The other 64 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: thing that is really interesting that became kind of an 65 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: in sharp contrast and appearance to me um was that, 66 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned at the top that this came 67 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: up in our Criminalia episode about the person that masqueraded 68 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: as a doctor to assist him. And what's very interesting 69 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: is that if you look at stories of that person's life, 70 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: they definitely kind of couch it as though he was 71 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: seeking he was practicing medicine, which he was not actually. 72 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he was representing himself as a doctor, 73 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: but he wasn't doing hands on care with patients, which 74 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: is something that gets left out, and it really wasn't 75 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 1: until I was like looking at old archival newspapers covering 76 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: the story that they were the ones pointing out, you know, 77 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: and even in because it's much more sensational to think 78 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: the worst, even in pretty like buried parts of the 79 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: article where it'd be like, oh no, no, he just 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: he was just writing things down. He wasn't touching patients, 81 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: but that's never part of it. And you see how 82 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: like depending on what the story is being presented as 83 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: how those details shift. And it's just a good reminder 84 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: to always be digging and looking in the margins and 85 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: finding the buried lead in some cases. Um. Yeah, I 86 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: have m many thoughts about the sort of backbiting and 87 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: in fighting amongst the medical community, especially, you know, once 88 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: it becomes something. We've talked on the show many times 89 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: before about um, scientific disagreements and people feeling that they 90 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: weren't getting credit or that they had been overlooked in 91 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: in discussions of something. But this one is also unique 92 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: because it does play out in the papers in a 93 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: very public way at a time when the public was 94 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: very big on the person involved, and so it's a 95 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: it's just an interesting look at how those things get 96 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: handled by the press, particularly at that period of time 97 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: in the twenties and thirties. Yeah, I could. I could 98 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: look at professional disagreements play on the press all day, 99 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: every day. As long as they're in the past, that's 100 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: more fun. There have been times when I've been trying 101 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: to figure out what to do a podcast on next 102 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: that I've been googling things like historical scientific disputes. Yeah. Um, 103 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: it is also to me really really interesting. Like I said, 104 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: we contrade, we talked about the contradiction of of medical 105 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: practitioners who simultaneously criticized his work and said they were 106 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: doing the same work. But it's also interesting to me 107 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: that most of them acknowledge that he had developed all 108 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: of these techniques, but then they kind of wanted him 109 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: to shut up and get out of the country, which 110 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: is a whole other like layer to that whole Like 111 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: what is really the crux of the problem, especially when 112 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people were so in 113 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: favor of his work and in favor of supporting him 114 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: that they were willing to like make sure he got 115 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: to sit for board exams in a much you know, 116 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: quicker process than the average person would be able to 117 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: have access to, etcetera. Um. And then it always gets 118 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: ruined by somebody being really able at gross in some way. Yeah. Yeah, 119 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: that is the other thing about that coverage, and and 120 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: we talked about it some in the show, just the 121 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: way that language has changed around orthopedic issues, disability of 122 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: any kind the medical community. Like, there's so many headlines 123 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: from that period talking about his work that just make 124 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: you cringe, and you look at them today and you 125 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: realize we're still figuring a lot of things out. I'm 126 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: sure in another fifty years people will cringe at all 127 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 1: of today's headlines for being incredibly ignorant. Always in motion 128 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: is the future. Uh. We talked about Hugo Gernsbach or 129 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: Gern's back. I'll see. I'll hear people say all the time. 130 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: I sometimes use them interchangeably, just to to roll with 131 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: the flow and cover all bases. Yeah. We had a 132 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: whole conversation that we cut out of the show that 133 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: I say, we are our producer Casey or whoever is 134 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: helping Casey with edits. Uh, cut that out for us 135 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: how to say it? Yeah, because she'll hear it both ways. 136 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: And I think he's it's one of those names that 137 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: is common enough, you know, in a particular area that 138 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: lots of people have said it lots of different ways. 139 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,599 Speaker 1: So I am pronunciation has transcended whatever his lifetime pronunciation was. 140 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: In my opinion, he's an obviously an interesting one. But 141 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: he's also interesting because there's so much that you've got 142 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: to leave out to do an episode on him that 143 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: isn't really worth putting in and expanding it to a 144 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: two fur because it's really like, boy, he sure was 145 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: a nutty eccentric um And it's just more and more 146 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: evidence of that. Um, there's one thing that I didn't 147 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: mention because again I never found a hard bit of 148 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: evidence for it that he apparently went through a period 149 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: when he was quite young where he gambled a lot, 150 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: but he eventually lost enough that he was like, oh, 151 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: I should stop doing that. Yeah, Um, I had. There 152 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: was a write up about him in Life magazine in 153 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and there's a quote in it that 154 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: made me laugh so hard because they're talking about him 155 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: as a writer, and you know, he did obviously write fiction, 156 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: but was, as we said several times, not known for 157 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: being a great writer. And this journalist is specifically mentioning 158 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: the novelization that came out of his uh, his initial 159 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: modern electric series that he did to fill out pages, 160 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: and says to describe the book as a novel is 161 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: stretching the definition of that word to the screech point. 162 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: You know, it's cute. Alice is from Switzerland. There's no crazy, 163 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: very simplified, easy to digest love trope in there. Like 164 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: everything is a very simple story to follow. Nothing gets 165 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: too confusing. Um, there were a lot of, um, like 166 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: I said, details about him that I didn't put in. 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: One of the things that I saw that I really 168 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: enjoyed was that he didn't um believe in funerals um 169 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: because he really what he's saying is that he doesn't 170 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: believe in our current system of burying people in cemeteries 171 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: because in his view, he thought that over time, people 172 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: will keep dying until the entire earth has to be 173 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: a graveyard. I mean, he's not wrong, right. He came 174 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: up with this idea that we should freeze all of 175 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: our corpses and shoot him into space at speeds that 176 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: are calculated to remove them from our solar system. That 177 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: seems uh man, just tossing your garbage in the neighbors. Yeah, 178 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: that's have there's levels of problems with that. Um. Somehow, 179 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: that reminds me, though of a thing that I was 180 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: reading where there are not a lot of places in 181 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: the world. I it's I don't want to misspeak, because 182 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: I'm like recalling an an article that I read some 183 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: stretch of time ago. But it was basically about how 184 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: the idea that your loved ones remains are going to 185 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: be buried in this cemetery in perpetuity is not a 186 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: universal idea, and that there are lots of places where 187 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: you basically you pay rent on the grave site, and 188 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: if you have no surviving relatives paying the rent on 189 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: that grave site anymore, it's going to be somebody else's UM. 190 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: For that reason of like, where we continue to give 191 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: each person their own grave site, then eventually it's all 192 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: grave sites. It reminds me of UM Did You Uch 193 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: Far Escape? When it was on some There was one 194 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: episode where Rigel, who was one of the puppet characters, 195 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,239 Speaker 1: was sort of having this concept of of UM cemeteries 196 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: explained to him. And I won't quote it accurately because 197 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: I'm literally going from very distant memory, but he was like, 198 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: you keep your dead right there with you. It was 199 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: just horrified by the idea. And if you watch Futurama, 200 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: eventually we start burying people uh in other places because 201 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: we'll have you know, we'll need to have satellite cemeteries 202 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: to handle it. Yeah. Well, and there's culturally so many 203 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: different UH ways of dealing with death and what to 204 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: do with remains after death, Like none of these things 205 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: are universal at all. That was a weird little digression. 206 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: We just went on the best kind UM. One of 207 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: the things I love reading reading Gernsbeck's work is that 208 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, at the time him he was writing a 209 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: lot of his early stuff, the word technology had not 210 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: been coined yet, and so it is that fun. I mean, 211 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: to me, this is one of the delights of history, 212 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: is seeing the ways that people kind of talked around 213 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: concepts that didn't have a name yet. I mean, even 214 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: scientifiction is hilarious and charming. This is also a thing 215 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't get into you, he claimed. I mean, 216 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: he came up with the word scientifiction, but he also 217 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: claimed that he came up with the word television and 218 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: some other things. You know. He was he was not 219 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: like the not not afraid to be his own hype man. 220 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: He made a lot of claims. He made a lot 221 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: of claims, and he I mean, he did have a 222 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: lot of um insightful predictions about things that would come 223 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: to fruition, but also lots that were completely cockamami. He 224 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: apparently also was known to send food back in restaurants 225 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: if it didn't arrive at the table in a way 226 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: that he liked, like to all be plated perfectly, and 227 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: he was not afraid to send it back several times. Yeah, 228 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: don't don't do that, which to me is just like 229 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: pers nicketty, but um, you know, I'm usually too hungry. 230 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: I don't care. It's fine. Fine, is it in front 231 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: of me? Do I have a fork? Yeah? I think 232 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: the only time I've ever sent something back in a 233 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: restaurant like it was literally burns to the point of 234 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: not being pleasing to eat anymore, and not a dish 235 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: that was supposed to be charred in any way. Right, right. Otherwise, 236 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: even if I get something and it's just not so 237 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: my taste, I'm I'm not sending it back. Yeah. It 238 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: is also just I love sort of doing comparative reads 239 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: on what much later people working in the science fiction 240 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: space think about him, because it is very polarized. There 241 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: are people who still sort of lauded him. Is like 242 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: this charming nut of a man who really like created 243 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: this this entire you know, the concepts with his his 244 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: focus on community of fandom and and this idea of 245 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: science fiction is this place where we could think about 246 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: the future. But then there are others who are like, 247 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: he was a problem in all the ways, and why 248 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: are we why are we lauding him as this masterful, 249 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: amazing person. Yeah, there's there's so much gatekeeping in the 250 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: world of science fiction, both among like the writing aspect 251 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: and some in some cases and among the fandom, like 252 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: from all sides, there can be a lot of gatekeeping. 253 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: And so the idea that somebody who was so central 254 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: to establishing the idea that science fiction was its own 255 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,119 Speaker 1: genre was like, here's the mathematical formula of what counts 256 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: like that drove me up a lall. Yeah, well that 257 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: and that it had to be predictive of the future, 258 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: when there's a lot of science fiction that is not 259 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: that but as you know, uh speculates on on other 260 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: things or or is born of a what if scenario 261 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: of the past, um, which yeah, it's a little But 262 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: then when you read his stuff, as we said, he 263 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: would contradict himself all the time, and to him, I 264 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: think he was just like, well, I'm just spitballing, And 265 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: so he didn't see it as this big contradictory thing. 266 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: He didn't even see himself really as like, I don't 267 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: think as the arbiter of all these things. He was 268 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: just kind of like, bad, this is how I'm thinking 269 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: about it, This is how I But it also gets 270 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: into that idea of a cult of personality right where 271 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: there are people even now who will refer to him 272 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: as like uncle Hugo, as though he's still like a 273 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: person in their lives even though they have never met 274 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: him and he has never been part of their you know, 275 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: personal or professional development. And so that's the other thing 276 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: of like, how much of that is him saying this 277 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: is what I say, and how it has to be 278 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: versus that community that he was putting together going well, 279 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: Hugo says, So that's the rule. I rolled my eyes, right, 280 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: I mean, this is part of the problematic aspect of 281 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: things like that, um and and even those two opposing 282 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: viewpoints we mentioned regarding changing the name to Wonder Stories, 283 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: it's pretty exemplary of how problematic that can be. Right, 284 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: when everyone has has a voice, you're going to get 285 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: some love that are not great takes. That's just the 286 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: bottom line, uh, Which not to say that everyone shouldn't 287 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: have their own take, but you have to be able 288 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: to discern the good from the bad. Uh. Once again, 289 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: thanks for spending time with us this week. If you're 290 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: headed into a weekend with time off, having absolutely great 291 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: time and and do lots of things that bring you joy. 292 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: If you don't have time off and you're working, try 293 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: to find those things that bring you joy anyway best 294 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: you can. We're cheering for you. We will be right 295 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: back here tomorrow with the classic episode and on Monday 296 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: with news stories. Stuff you missed in History. Class is 297 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 298 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 299 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.