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Speaker 1: M M. I have a question for you, Claire. If

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Speaker 1: a company knows it has a pay gap and it

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Speaker 1: wants to fix it, why not just pay women more.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense to me, but it's not

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Speaker 1: actually that easy. In the short term, it works, but

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Speaker 1: as a permanent solution not really. Take Salesforce, for example,

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Speaker 1: the big San Francisco software company. They tried it and

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Speaker 1: they're still working on it. The process started in two

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Speaker 1: thousand fifteen when they decided to do an audit to

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Speaker 1: find out if they even had a pay gap that

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Speaker 1: first year. They kept it pretty simple. They looked only

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Speaker 1: at base salaries people with the same job type, broken

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Speaker 1: down by gender. They found that six percent of Salesforce's

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Speaker 1: employees were being underpaid for no apparent reason. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: because they were working fewer hours or didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of experience. They working pairing software developers to software developers,

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Speaker 1: receptionists to receptionists. So did they then pay those people

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Speaker 1: more money? Yep, Salesforce spent three million dollars that first

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Speaker 1: year bumping people up. Granted, its revenue that year was

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Speaker 1: six point seven billion, but still that's a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: And not just women got races. There were some men

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Speaker 1: who were being underpaid too, So then everything was fixed. Yep,

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Speaker 1: the end. No, actually it was the exact opposite. When

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Speaker 1: they did the audit again the following year, they added

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Speaker 1: race to the equation, factored in bonuses in addition to

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Speaker 1: base pay, and found another eleven percent of people who

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Speaker 1: are underpaid. Fixing that cost the company another three million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Here's Cindy Robbins, the head of HR at Salesforce. That

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Speaker 1: second year was also a big learning for us because

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Speaker 1: it was a year that we had just finished acquiring

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Speaker 1: some of our biggest acquisitions, four team companies that we

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Speaker 1: acquire the previous year. So when you acquire fourteen companies,

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Speaker 1: you acquire also their pay practices. So they keep bumping

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Speaker 1: up people's salaries. But are they doing anything to keep

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Speaker 1: the paygap from coming back again and again? Yeah, they are.

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Speaker 1: They figured out that those eleven percent of people, a

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Speaker 1: lot of them were new to the company and had

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Speaker 1: basically arrived at Salesforce already underpaid, and Salesforce had been

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Speaker 1: naively basing their salaries off their old ones. Are recruiting

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Speaker 1: organization is no longer asking the question what is your

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Speaker 1: current compensation. Now it's what is a compensation you expect,

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Speaker 1: which is making candidates pause and think about it, And

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Speaker 1: we're not forcing them to answer it on the spot.

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Speaker 1: They may need some time to do their own level

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Speaker 1: of research and come back to us. Yeah, but asking

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Speaker 1: someone what they think they should make still puts the

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Speaker 1: burden on them to say what they deserve exactly. And

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Speaker 1: if you're underpaid but don't know it, you might low

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Speaker 1: all your own offer. So it's not a perfect solution. No,

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Speaker 1: And when they did the analysis again this year, Salesforce

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Speaker 1: found another six percent gap, costing another two point seven

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Speaker 1: million dollars. Part of the problem is that there's so

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Speaker 1: many factors that go into creating the pay gap, Plus

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Speaker 1: Cindy keeps thinking of new factors to add to her analysis.

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Speaker 1: I never thought to myself, oh, should I look at

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Speaker 1: how we distribute merit? Oh should I look at how

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Speaker 1: we distribute promotions at the beginning of the year, by gender,

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Speaker 1: by pay practices. It sounds like Salesforce is trying and

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Speaker 1: has made some strides, but it hasn't fixed the pay gap. No,

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Speaker 1: and the company doesn't expect to fix it as then

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Speaker 1: eliminate the entire issue. Anytime soon. The pay gap is

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Speaker 1: just a numerical reflection of the way or society and

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Speaker 1: economy are set up. No matter what size your company is,

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Speaker 1: you're probably going to encounter at least some of the

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Speaker 1: factors that lead to the pay gap. That's something Cindy

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Speaker 1: says has been hard for people to understand. You know,

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Speaker 1: do we still want to be fixing six percent of

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Speaker 1: the population. No, But you know, it's an audit and

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Speaker 1: data is being inputed, Assumptions sometimes are being made. I

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Speaker 1: think you're always going to have to do the audit

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Speaker 1: every single year, and that they're always there's always going

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Speaker 1: to be some level of room for error, and that's

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Speaker 1: the error you want to identify and you want to fix.

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Speaker 1: But our systems perfect to ensure that we are paying

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Speaker 1: everyone equally, not yet, and that's what we're working on.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the world, you know what the

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Speaker 1: population like, Where is our place like? Where is our value?

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Speaker 1: Women deserve equal for equal work and nation one, the

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Speaker 1: median salary for men is greater than women in nine

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Speaker 1: point six percent of major occupations women do they want.

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Speaker 1: We want to end gender inequality, and to do this

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Speaker 1: we need everyone involved. It's a concept called information a symmetry.

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Speaker 1: If you don't know what the going rate is for

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Speaker 1: your salary, it's easier for the company to rip you off.

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Speaker 1: Girl Power equalization between the sexy. I ask no favor

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Speaker 1: for my sex. All I ask of our reden is

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Speaker 1: that they take their feet or fur lex. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. Salesforces struggle brings up

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Speaker 1: an important point about fixing the pay gap. One company

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Speaker 1: paying women more money is like taking advil for a

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Speaker 1: broken bone. The pain is going to come back until

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Speaker 1: the bone heals. That's why Salesforce has to do it's

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Speaker 1: pay audits year after year. It doesn't exist in a vacuum,

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Speaker 1: and it also only addresses one facet of the pay gap,

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Speaker 1: not the issue of the highest paying jobs generally being

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Speaker 1: held by men. But there are solutions to the pay

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Speaker 1: gap that attempt to heal the bone. Take how Salesforce

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Speaker 1: no longer asks new hires what they made at their

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Speaker 1: previous jobs. Women tend to start out at lower salaries

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Speaker 1: than men, so basing salaries on what people were paid

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Speaker 1: before only perpetuates that inequality. They're about a dozen places,

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Speaker 1: including Massachusetts, California, and New York City, where asking about

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Speaker 1: a job applicants previous salary is illegal. But the solution

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Speaker 1: isn't perfect. Like I talked about with Player, women can

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Speaker 1: still end up making less than men for other reasons.

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Speaker 1: They might low ball their offers, they might be perceived

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Speaker 1: as too aggressive during a negotiation. They might still not

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Speaker 1: ask for enough money. But there's more than one way

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Speaker 1: to treat paid disparities at a deeper level, like total

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Speaker 1: salary transparency. If everyone knew how much everyone else was making,

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Speaker 1: then it would be tough for employers to get away

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Speaker 1: with paying certain people less for no reason. And if

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Speaker 1: you know what you could be making, you're more likely

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Speaker 1: to ask for what you deserve. Total pay transparency is

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Speaker 1: kind of extreme. People generally don't like talking about money,

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Speaker 1: and right now employers take advantage of that. It allows

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Speaker 1: them to keep a chunk of salaries below market rate,

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Speaker 1: and that saves the money. One person who refuses to

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Speaker 1: buy into that social taboo is Jen Schiffer. She's a

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Speaker 1: software engineer in New York, and she talks about her

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Speaker 1: salary about as freely as other New Yorkers talk about

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Speaker 1: real estate prices. But I've always been super like transparent

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Speaker 1: with people who asked me to be with my salary,

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Speaker 1: which kind of got me in trouble of my last

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Speaker 1: job without like Trump, troubles of fake idea. But I

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Speaker 1: did have coworkers who are upset at how much I

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Speaker 1: was talking about and trying to talk about. Luckily, Jen

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Speaker 1: now works at fog Creek, a small software company that

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Speaker 1: last to your instituted a policy known as radical pay transparency,

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Speaker 1: everyone within a company knowing what everyone else is making

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Speaker 1: more or less. I decided to investigate, you know, for

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Speaker 1: me at a personal level, it was about treating workers right.

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Speaker 1: That's a Neil dash the CEO of fog Creek. He

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Speaker 1: took over the company in December. He came with a

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Speaker 1: mission to make fog Creek and tech in general more

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Speaker 1: fair to people, regardless of gender or race. You know,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in a household with you know, my

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Speaker 1: mom being in the union her whole life, and and

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Speaker 1: you know, understanding the importance of respecting workers. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's any secreted women and other underrepresented groups in

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Speaker 1: tech that end up trying to negotiate their way to

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Speaker 1: face fair salaries may or may not get there and

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Speaker 1: really sort of ending up behind right when they start,

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Speaker 1: and that permanently impacts the trajectory of your whole things

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Speaker 1: over your lifetime. The company only has about three dozen employees,

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Speaker 1: but still that's no guarantee people were being paid fairly. Transparency,

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Speaker 1: in theory, would not only reveal any pain equalities that

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Speaker 1: had cropped up in the twenty years fog Creek existed

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Speaker 1: before and Neil got there, it would also help ensure

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Speaker 1: that things stayed equal over the long term by holding

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Speaker 1: the company accountable. Here's Jessica Moy, the head of culture,

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Speaker 1: which is like hr at fog Creek. I was a

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Speaker 1: little nervous that going from you know, not transparency to

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Speaker 1: transparency it was going to kind of like create adverse

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Speaker 1: reactions for certain people because I just didn't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: people reactively differently to sharing financial information and people's level

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Speaker 1: of comfortability. It's very different. Like I said, people don't

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Speaker 1: like talking about money, people who make too much money

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Speaker 1: don't want to feel guilty about it, and people not

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Speaker 1: making enough don't want to feel like dupes. That's why

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Speaker 1: fog Creek decided to take transparency slow, and Neil sent

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Speaker 1: out a survey asking people what kind of salary information

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Speaker 1: they'd be okay with sharing. He found out not everyone

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Speaker 1: was as enthusiastic about pay transparency as he was. There

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Speaker 1: were some people that were just sort of like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how I feel about this. I've never encountered

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Speaker 1: this question before. I don't know what the implications are

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Speaker 1: about talking about my pay and and and in some

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Speaker 1: cases really going deep into it with some of our

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Speaker 1: team members, and they were like, you know, my family

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Speaker 1: has never talked about pay, and I'm you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: worried about like open salary transparency because like my brother

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what each other makes, and like

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Speaker 1: I don't want that to be awkward at Thanksgiving. Even

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Speaker 1: gen Scheffer, who talked a big game about salary transparency,

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Speaker 1: had some anxiety. I'm like, are there other engineers here

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Speaker 1: comparing themselves to me? And if they find out I'm

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Speaker 1: making like more than them, will they feel slight? And

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Speaker 1: if I'm making less than them, will they feel like

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Speaker 1: that's fair? Like I I don't know, Like I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm the I'm the only woman on my team, and

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Speaker 1: so there's not many women engineers at the company. I

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Speaker 1: am always very insecure about whether guys I work with

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Speaker 1: or alongside, would think that I am as valuable as

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Speaker 1: a company says I am. Still not a single person

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Speaker 1: said they preferred the status quo. The company wanted more

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Speaker 1: pay transparency. The next step before telling anybody anything about

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Speaker 1: what their colleagues were making was to do an internal

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Speaker 1: audit of compensation at fog Creek, and we found that

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Speaker 1: we had inequities. I mean, I think any any company

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Speaker 1: that's been around for more than five minutes is going

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Speaker 1: to if they're being honest. And Neil used the data

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Speaker 1: to help and figure out what constituted fair pay. In

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Speaker 1: the first place. He looked at what people on each

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Speaker 1: team we're making, and then he compared that information for

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Speaker 1: similar positions that he found on sites like pay scale.

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Speaker 1: Using all of that, he decided on a range that

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Speaker 1: made sense for each job title. I was curious to

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Speaker 1: know if, as expected, women had ended up making less

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Speaker 1: than men. Yeah. I think the majority of people that

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Speaker 1: were at the high end of the range or men

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Speaker 1: for sure, But I think the people that weren't the

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Speaker 1: low end of the range two were also men. So like,

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Speaker 1: it's probably reflecting more the fact that we don't have

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Speaker 1: as good a gender balance as you should to men

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Speaker 1: are over indexed on both the high end low end

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Speaker 1: of the spectrum. He raised the salaries of two people

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Speaker 1: he found out weren't making enough money even before making

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Speaker 1: all the pay data public, But there were also some

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Speaker 1: people he found who were making too much money. Those

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Speaker 1: people got to stay where they were rather than go

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Speaker 1: for truly radical pay transparency. Bog Creek decided to share

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Speaker 1: just those salary ranges with no names attached, just job titles,

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Speaker 1: and Neil wouldn't tell me what those were exactly, But

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Speaker 1: finally last September he was ready to share them with

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Speaker 1: the rest of the company. At one of their monthly

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Speaker 1: town hall meetings, he gathered everyone together. Some people were

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Speaker 1: put all the data up on the screen and there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a mutiny, but not everyone was happy. You know,

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Speaker 1: some stuff we screwed up, Like we have some departments

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Speaker 1: as a small company that are one person, so we

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Speaker 1: listed a salary range for the role of the only

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Speaker 1: person in that department and they're like, okay, well, my

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Speaker 1: salary is basically out there like everybody else is in

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Speaker 1: a team, and it's a range. But they're like, if

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Speaker 1: if this is the only person in this role, everybody

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Speaker 1: knows exactly what I make to within a five thousand

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Speaker 1: dollar band. Jessica moy was one of the people who

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Speaker 1: didn't have anonymity. I'm the only person in my position,

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Speaker 1: so it's pretty clear, like my this is Jessica's Valerie band,

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Speaker 1: and everyone knows that's my job. And I never had

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Speaker 1: any issue with that, So for me, it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: a thing to process. I was like, this is what

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Speaker 1: I make. Even though Jessica didn't mind that everyone knew

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Speaker 1: her salary, you can see why some people might. Jun

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Speaker 1: Scheffer was also in a range of her own, but

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Speaker 1: she had a different problem him. I think it was like,

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Speaker 1: some of these ranges are pretty wide, but I would

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Speaker 1: feel more comfortable of bringing in other underrepresented people into

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Speaker 1: the company once I know it's like completely fair and

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Speaker 1: Neil knows he has more work to do. To Jen's point,

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Speaker 1: after the town hall, fog Creek decided to put salary

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Speaker 1: ranges on all of its job postings so that people

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Speaker 1: know they're getting hired on a level playing field. You

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Speaker 1: can't build trust just by saying trust me and not

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Speaker 1: showing anybody the work, especially in in tech, whereas so

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Speaker 1: many people have come from other companies that weren't treating

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Speaker 1: them right there weren't weren't you know, being fair to them, UM,

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Speaker 1: and so transparency is just the foundation upon which you

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Speaker 1: build a relationship between an employer and a worker that

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Speaker 1: is trusting. And you know, we try to do that

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Speaker 1: and everything we do. Given how much anil believes in

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Speaker 1: pay transparency, I asked him how transparent he planned to

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Speaker 1: be with his own salary. It was absurd because I said,

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Speaker 1: this is the range that I make the bottom of it.

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Speaker 1: So I like, UM, made a structure for any future CEO.

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Speaker 1: I guess, but I was. I just sort of disclosed

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Speaker 1: my personal salary because I was like, I don't I

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Speaker 1: want to model the thing I want people to feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable doing. Up to now, we've just been trying to

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Speaker 1: solve the pay gap by looking at the numbers. But

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Speaker 1: there are all kinds of things that happen at the

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Speaker 1: office and at different points in women's careers that make

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Speaker 1: a big difference over time in the amount of money

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Speaker 1: they make. And the biggest thing of all is motherhood.

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Speaker 1: Nothing trash is your earning potential, like having a kid.

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Speaker 1: Men and women start their careers making about the same

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Speaker 1: amount of money, But the pay gap really starts to

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Speaker 1: show up when men and women hit their late twenties.

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Speaker 1: That is, when employers think women are about to have kids.

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Speaker 1: One study found that the bulk of the pay gap

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Speaker 1: happens between ages twenty six and thirty three for college

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Speaker 1: educated women. And this isn't just because women cut back

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Speaker 1: their hours to pick up slack at home. Mothers make

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Speaker 1: proportionately less than men based on ours worked, research has found.

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Speaker 1: So what if we could do something about that, make

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Speaker 1: sure women could have kids and keep earning as much

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Speaker 1: money as their male colleagues. Adobe, the San Jose based

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Speaker 1: company that makes design software and also the flash plug

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Speaker 1: in you used to watch videos on the internet, last

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Speaker 1: year announced that they closed their gender pay gap one

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Speaker 1: percent in the US. That's for men and women doing

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Speaker 1: the same jobs, But that still doesn't mean the working

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Speaker 1: environment was perfectly equal, especially for women and men who

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Speaker 1: have kids. My colleague Ellen Hewitt explains, Caitlin Azzie works

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Speaker 1: at Adobe as a recruiter, but right now she's on

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Speaker 1: maternity leave. So Dylan was born on New Year's Eve,

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Speaker 1: so she squeaked in there. We got the tax right

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Speaker 1: off and everything. So and she was ten pounds six ounces,

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Speaker 1: huge baby. Yeah, we have big babies in our family.

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Speaker 1: Both men and women at Adobe get sixteen weeks of

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Speaker 1: paid paternal or maternal leave, regardless of whether they're the

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Speaker 1: primary caregiver. Birth Mothers get an additional ten weeks of

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Speaker 1: medical leave. That's compared to less than six weeks at

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Speaker 1: the average private company in the US that offers paid

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Speaker 1: leave for a new child, so already they're doing pretty well.

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Speaker 1: On top of that, the company gives employees the option

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Speaker 1: to take a more flexible work schedule, like when they

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Speaker 1: come back from leave. They call it Adobe Flex Time.

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Speaker 1: This is Ellen Ellen. I met with Caitlin along with

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Speaker 1: Rosemary Arianta Keiper, who oversees the flex Time program. Here's Caitlin.

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Speaker 1: I'm learning with me in a new mom It's like

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Speaker 1: you can plan for the you know, every single thing,

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Speaker 1: but nothing really goes to plan. So just having it

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Speaker 1: be you know, maybe I need to work from home

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Speaker 1: a couple of times a month, or you know, three

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Speaker 1: times in this one week, or just having that to

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Speaker 1: me is really really I can see be very helpful

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Speaker 1: when I return back to work, coming back to work

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Speaker 1: after having a child can be really hard, no matter

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Speaker 1: how much time you got from eternity leave, you're just

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Speaker 1: starting to figure out what being a mom is like,

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Speaker 1: or how to juggle caring for the kids you already

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Speaker 1: have plus the infant you just brought home. Without the

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Speaker 1: flexibility to ease back into full time work, some women

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Speaker 1: might decide to downshift to part time, which drastically limits

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Speaker 1: their earning potential. That usually involves a job switch, and

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Speaker 1: if going back to your old job with a new

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Speaker 1: baby is difficult, finding a new job is much much harder,

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Speaker 1: especially when you factor in the cost of daycare. In

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Speaker 1: the US, lots of women decide that it's just too

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Speaker 1: much and stay home for good. When Caitlin comes back

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Speaker 1: to work this month, she plans to take a day

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Speaker 1: each week to work from home so she can spend

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Speaker 1: the afternoons with her daughter. Adobe has offered the flex

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Speaker 1: time option for years, but it was only in the

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Speaker 1: last year that they started promote doing it internally and

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Speaker 1: training managers how to talk to their employees about it.

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Speaker 1: For Caitlin, that was a hugely important change. She was

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Speaker 1: already nearing her due date by the time she found

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Speaker 1: out the option existed. I think, um, before they rolled

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Speaker 1: out this program and the framework was more standardized, I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily think people first knew that this was an option.

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Speaker 1: I think it gives people, at least me, a little

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Speaker 1: bit more of empowerment to think about what I need first.

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Speaker 1: Before they rolled it out, I just assumed I'd come

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Speaker 1: back full time and you know, you would be a

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Speaker 1: hard couple of weeks and then you just get thrown

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Speaker 1: back in and that's that. And um, that was sort

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Speaker 1: of my assumption. And so I just don't think people

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Speaker 1: want to ask for for more unless they, you know,

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Speaker 1: unless it's something that they can say, hey, it's a

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Speaker 1: point to a policy or point to something that's more normalized,

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Speaker 1: because I think there is a you know, there is

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Speaker 1: always pressure to be here if you can and things

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Speaker 1: like that. Rosemary knows that pressure well. As the vice

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Speaker 1: president of Global Rewards for a OBI. She knew that

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Speaker 1: even though the option for a flexible schedule was out there,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who might benefit from it weren't

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Speaker 1: taking it. Yeah, I think there was the sentiment of

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Speaker 1: not realizing that they could take it. It does seem

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Speaker 1: to give permission and lend itself to the ability to

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Speaker 1: be able to say, look, this is documented somewhere, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a formal policy. They're promoted. So it does

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Speaker 1: seem to give more permission to individuals to feel like

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Speaker 1: they can ask for it. You know, oftentimes the type

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Speaker 1: of relationship you have with a manager and kind of

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Speaker 1: the value system or or what they believe is important

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Speaker 1: dictates oftentimes how much they're willing to provide flexibility. And

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Speaker 1: what we realized was in some organizations it happened seamlessly,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't an issue, and in others, um managers weren't

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Speaker 1: as willing um to do it because they felt like

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Speaker 1: they had demands or or weren't sure how they could

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Speaker 1: um manage the program equitably across the organization. Since making

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Speaker 1: Adobe flex time more of a formal policy less September,

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Speaker 1: Adobe has seen a ten increase in the number of

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Speaker 1: people choosing it. Rosemary says that the more normal a

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Speaker 1: flexible work schedule seems, the less likely it is that

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Speaker 1: people who take advantage of it will be implicitly penalized

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Speaker 1: for doing so. Because here's what's worrisome right now. Even

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Speaker 1: though both parental leave and flex time are offered to

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Speaker 1: men and women, men are still taking way less time off.

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Speaker 1: What we're seeing is is most men, on average are

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Speaker 1: taking closer to one month. And the feedback that we've

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Speaker 1: got is is is because you know I've got we

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Speaker 1: don't both need to be at home. Is essentially the

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Speaker 1: response that we've gotten, even though they both have the

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Speaker 1: ability to be at home. The point of encouraging men

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Speaker 1: to use programs like parental leave and flex time isn't

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Speaker 1: just so that women have some help at home, although

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Speaker 1: it's that too. The point is so that women and

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Speaker 1: men share the burden of childcare more equally, including the

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Speaker 1: workplace penalties that come with it. When you miss a

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Speaker 1: may your career opportunity because you're at home taking care

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Speaker 1: of the kids. That can be frustrating. But right now,

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Speaker 1: women still do twice as much of the childcare in

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Speaker 1: the US. That means that those missed opportunities are falling

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Speaker 1: disproportionately on them. I'd love to see more men start

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Speaker 1: taking the time off right and taking advantage of these programs,

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Speaker 1: because I think that act in itself will also kind

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Speaker 1: of level the paying field. Two parents each with the

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Speaker 1: flexibility to balance work and home life. It does sound

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Speaker 1: pretty idyllic, It's also good for women's earnings. A study

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Speaker 1: in Sweden found that for each month of paternity leave

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Speaker 1: the father takes, the mother's income rises by an average

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Speaker 1: of seven percent. But in the US, at least, we're

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Speaker 1: a long way from that kind of thing being normal.

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Speaker 1: Only of private sector workers get any paid for rental

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Speaker 1: leave at all. Changing the way we deal with women

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Speaker 1: and men and work isn't something that happens all at once.

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Speaker 1: Paid discrimination has been illegal since the sixties, but that

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Speaker 1: hasn't stopped companies from paying women less over the years.

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Speaker 1: That's because sexism is a way bigger problem than the

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Speaker 1: pay gap. No one company is going to solve sexism

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Speaker 1: for everyone, but Rosemary is right. The more places where

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Speaker 1: gender equality is the norm, the harder it is for

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Speaker 1: everyone else to keep treating men and women differently. Next

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Speaker 1: week on The Paycheck, we're going to talk about how

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Speaker 1: individual women are trying to solve the pay gap for themselves.

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Speaker 1: Some are even resorting to motivational chanting. You are not

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Speaker 1: going to want to miss it. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: another episode of The Paycheck. If you like the show,

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Speaker 1: please head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to rate, review, and subscribe. This show was reported

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Speaker 1: by Ellen Hewitt Claire Subteth and hosted and reported by

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Speaker 1: me Rebecca Greenfield. It was edited by Jillian Goodman and

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Speaker 1: produced by Liz Smith. We also had help from Francesca Levie,

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Speaker 1: Janet Paskin, and Magne Henrickson. Our original music is by

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Speaker 1: Leo Sidron, carry Vanderyott did the illustrations on our show page,

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Speaker 1: which you can find at bloomberg dot com Slash the Paycheck.

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Speaker 1: Francesca Levie is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts