WEBVTT - Ep. 14: Wolf West

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<v Speaker 1>As native animals. Wolves shape American ecologies for millions of

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<v Speaker 1>years and impressed early travelers with their numbers and tameness,

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<v Speaker 1>but were rapidly destroyed in the West when old world

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<v Speaker 1>stock raising replaced an Indian managed world. I'm Dan Flores

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<v Speaker 1>and this is the American West, brought to you by

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<v Speaker 1>Velvet Buck Wine. Where the hunt meets the harvest. A

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<v Speaker 1>portion of each bottle goes to support backcountry hunters and anglers.

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<v Speaker 1>Limited supply available at Velvetbuck Vineyards dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Enjoy responsible Wolf West.

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<v Speaker 1>At the midpoint of the nineteenth century, when Americans were

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<v Speaker 1>regularly traveling through the West, but except for spotty locales

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<v Speaker 1>in the Southwest and on the West Coast, had yet

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<v Speaker 1>to settle it, aspects of the ancient Indian managed continent

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<v Speaker 1>were still in place across much of the western country.

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<v Speaker 1>Judging by the accounts of those who witnessed this period,

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<v Speaker 1>the Catlans Bodmer's Autumns, this native West would have been

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<v Speaker 1>something to see, one of the spectacles of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>No element of this surviving version of Western America amazed

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<v Speaker 1>travelers as much as the staggering abundance of wild animals

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<v Speaker 1>and for people used to the civilized conditions of the

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<v Speaker 1>East or Europe. No Western animal imparted as much shock

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<v Speaker 1>and awe as wolves. Michael Steck, a physician traveling the

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<v Speaker 1>Santa Fe Trail in the early eighteen fifties, was one

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<v Speaker 1>of many who offers us a glimpse of what life

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<v Speaker 1>in a fully wolfed West was like. Steck and his

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<v Speaker 1>party found that any time they got among bison herds,

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<v Speaker 1>wolves became so astonishingly numerous that, as he wrote, we

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<v Speaker 1>see immense numbers of them. A common thing is to

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<v Speaker 1>see fifty at a sight in the daytime. We are

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<v Speaker 1>never out of sight of them, see hundreds in a day.

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<v Speaker 1>That comported with wildlife painter John James Ottoman's comment on

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<v Speaker 1>the Upper Missouri River that if ever there was a

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<v Speaker 1>country where wolves are surpassingly abundant, it's the one we

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<v Speaker 1>are now in. But here's the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Today.

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<v Speaker 1>You could drive repeatedly across the country where Steck wrote

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<v Speaker 1>of seeing hundreds of wolves a day, or along the Missouri,

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<v Speaker 1>where Autobun reported the most abundant wolf population he had

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<v Speaker 1>ever encountered, and never see a single wolf, not one.

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<v Speaker 1>Our erasure of them in the years from eighteen fifty

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<v Speaker 1>to nineteen twenty five was that thorough until about nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five, though, the American West was, and for five

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<v Speaker 1>five million years had been, wolf country. Consider that for

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<v Speaker 1>a moment and understand what an anomaly the past almost

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<v Speaker 1>wolf three hundred years has been to a story like that.

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<v Speaker 1>The West wolves were from a family of animals, the Canaday,

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<v Speaker 1>that evolved in North America, and although some of them

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<v Speaker 1>migrated elsewhere and took on their present forms in Asia

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<v Speaker 1>and Europe before they returned to America until the nineteen twenties,

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<v Speaker 1>there was never a time when wolves were not America's

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<v Speaker 1>keystone predators. Before humans first got here twenty two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>or so years ago, wolves probably shaped life in America

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<v Speaker 1>more profoundly than any other mammal. Wolves, in other words,

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<v Speaker 1>played a crucial role in Western nature for millions of

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<v Speaker 1>years before we ever set foot on the continent. Long

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<v Speaker 1>before we Old Worlders arrived with our peculiar hatred of predators,

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<v Speaker 1>virtually every ecology in the West was shaped from the

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<v Speaker 1>top down by the presence of wolves. The Canaday family

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<v Speaker 1>first appears in the fossil record of the American Southwest

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<v Speaker 1>about five and a half million years ago. Like American

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<v Speaker 1>evolved wild horses, our early wild canids became geographically cosmopolitan

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<v Speaker 1>by crossing the land bridges connecting America to Eurasia. At

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<v Speaker 1>the same time, there were other wolves at stayed home,

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<v Speaker 1>giving rise to animals that became Eastern wolves and spawning

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<v Speaker 1>the intriguing red wolf of the South.

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<v Speaker 2>As well as coyotes. As we all know.

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<v Speaker 1>Now from this year's the Extinction announcement from Colossal Bioengineering

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<v Speaker 1>and full disclosure, I'm a member of Colossal's Conservation Advisory Board,

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<v Speaker 1>the supersized American direwolf was also part of the candid

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<v Speaker 1>mix in ancient America. There's still unresolved science dire wolves.

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<v Speaker 1>A twenty twenty one article in Nature arguing that dire

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<v Speaker 1>wolves may be different enough from other American wolves to

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<v Speaker 1>belong in a genus other than Canus, one called Ainoscion.

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<v Speaker 1>Before about twenty five thousand years ago, when gray wolves

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<v Speaker 1>began loping home to America from Eurasia, very large and

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<v Speaker 1>very white dire wolves dominated the wolf story in America.

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<v Speaker 1>At Rancho Lebrea Tarpits in California, more than four thousand

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<v Speaker 1>of these burly one hundred and fifty pound wolves died

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<v Speaker 1>in the asphalt seeps. Their remains there outnumber those of

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<v Speaker 1>gray wolves by one hundred to one. Game of Thrones

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<v Speaker 1>and George R. R.

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<v Speaker 2>Martin.

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<v Speaker 1>Notwithstanding, dire wolves were not faded to survive the extinction

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<v Speaker 1>crash that ended the American places, saying ten thousand years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>During that great extinction pulse, smaller gray wolves somehow out

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<v Speaker 1>competed dire wolves, but direwolf extinction still left America with

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<v Speaker 1>a soup of several wolf types, including coyotes. There were

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<v Speaker 1>no survivors of the direwolf genus. Ain't no psion though,

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<v Speaker 1>until colossal scientists added into a gray wolf genome twenty

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<v Speaker 1>specific genes of direwolf DNA from remains that were seventy

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and thirteen thousand years old, then, through a

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<v Speaker 1>surrogate mother, scientist birth Romulus Remus and Callisi in late

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four and early twenty twenty five. As for

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<v Speaker 1>gray wolves, once they joined the other American canids in

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<v Speaker 1>the late Pleistocene, they decidedly made their presence felt. Big

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<v Speaker 1>five to six foot long pack hunters weighing eighty to

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twenty pounds, gray wolves outmatched their long

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<v Speaker 1>lost relations Eastern and red wolves and coyotes in both

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<v Speaker 1>size and packing stings. Once direwolves disappeared from the continent,

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<v Speaker 1>gray wolves were left at the swaggering big dogs. Everywhere,

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<v Speaker 1>including the West, gray wolves seem to have migrated home

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<v Speaker 1>to America in distinctive waves half a century ago. Biological

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<v Speaker 1>taxonomy designated a wopping twenty three species of Canus loupus.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty eleven, though, the US Fish and Wildlife Service

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<v Speaker 1>decided to come to terms with modern genetic research on

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<v Speaker 1>wolves and concluded that North America's wolves sprang from two origins.

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<v Speaker 1>Eastern wolves, red wolves, and coyotes all represented American wolf

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<v Speaker 1>evolution animals that never left the continent. Gray Wolves, on

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<v Speaker 1>the other hand, constituted animals that had started here, spent

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<v Speaker 1>some millions of years in Eurasia, then returned in several

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<v Speaker 1>separate distinct waves of animals during the Pleisocene. This taxonomic

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<v Speaker 1>rethink has shrunk the number of gray wolf subspecies from

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<v Speaker 1>the twenty three of the nineteen forties down to only four.

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<v Speaker 2>Arctic white wolves.

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<v Speaker 1>Canus lupus arctos, found in the extreme north of the

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<v Speaker 1>continent were probably the last to come home to America.

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<v Speaker 1>The rocky mountain wolf Canus Lupus occidentalis, found from the

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<v Speaker 1>Montana Rockies northward to Alaska, was likely another late arrival

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<v Speaker 1>from Asia. The small gray wolves of Mexico and the

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<v Speaker 1>American Southwest Canus Lupus bailei, the Mexican wolf, may have

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<v Speaker 1>led the migrations home. But the wolf that occupied more

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<v Speaker 1>of America than any other, extending from the Pacific across

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<v Speaker 1>the Great Plains, onto the western Great Lakes, and northward

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<v Speaker 1>through much of the eastern half of Canada, was Canus

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<v Speaker 1>lupus nubilus. This was the famed buffalo wolf, the Lobo

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<v Speaker 1>loafer or white wolf of the plains of so much

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<v Speaker 1>Western history. All these gray wolves arrived in time for

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<v Speaker 1>one of the grandest predator barbecues in world history. Before

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<v Speaker 1>the Pleistocene ended, gray wolves joined short face bears, saber

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<v Speaker 1>tooth and scimitar cats, false cheetahs, step lions, and running

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<v Speaker 1>hyenas to chase and pull down camels, sloths, horses, longhorned bison,

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<v Speaker 1>and perhaps mammoth calfs in an Africa like world that

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<v Speaker 1>almost seems like science fiction to us now. After the

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<v Speaker 1>Pleascistine extinctions took out all the giants. A reconstituted western

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<v Speaker 1>Bestieri bequeathed to Western gray wolves their classic place in

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<v Speaker 1>American ecology, with buffalo the only western grazer still standing.

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<v Speaker 1>After the extinctions, bison numbers skyrocketed to between twenty to

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<v Speaker 1>thirty million animals, some one and a half to two

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<v Speaker 1>million buffalo wolves served as their primary predators in this

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<v Speaker 1>new order, As famed Western trader and author Josiah Gregg

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<v Speaker 1>put it in the eighteen forties, although the buffalo is

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<v Speaker 1>the largest, he has by no means the control among

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<v Speaker 1>the prairie animals. The scepter of authority has been lodged

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<v Speaker 1>with the large gray wolf as keystone predators. Wolves apparently

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<v Speaker 1>influence continental ecology and ways that ripple through nature, affecting

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<v Speaker 1>not just populations of prey species, but also other predators

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<v Speaker 1>and scavengers, even down to the kind of vegetation like

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<v Speaker 1>aspens or cottonwoods found on a landscape. With gray wolves present,

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<v Speaker 1>coyote populations went down and fox numbers went up, and

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<v Speaker 1>a kind of bigger dog beats up littler dog equation.

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<v Speaker 1>Wolf predation exerts strong evolutionary pressures on the behaviors and

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<v Speaker 1>even habitat selections of wolf prey species. Such was the

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<v Speaker 1>scepter of authority the gray wolf wielded on Western landscapes

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<v Speaker 1>a century ago, and for multiple millions of years before that,

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<v Speaker 1>Wild America was a world in.

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<v Speaker 2>Good part created by wolves. In a North America.

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<v Speaker 1>Inhabited by native people who never domesticated or herded wild ungulates,

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<v Speaker 1>and who thought of all wolves as kin teachers and

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<v Speaker 1>totem animals. Wolves were free to play their top of

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<v Speaker 1>the pyramid roles as keystone predators, shaping ecologies down to

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<v Speaker 1>the birds that sang and the plants that grew. But

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<v Speaker 1>four hundred years ago, the arrival of Old worlders at

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<v Speaker 1>once challenged that ancient algorithm from the Old World's foothold

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<v Speaker 1>in Massachusetts, Bostonian William Wood wrote of the wolf from

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<v Speaker 1>the very beginning as a special and confusing problem for colonizers.

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<v Speaker 1>The confusion came from America's wolves not acting the way

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<v Speaker 1>Europeans had been told wolves should act. In America, Wood wrote,

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<v Speaker 1>it was never known yet that a wolf ever set

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<v Speaker 1>up on a man or a woman. That seemed impossible,

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<v Speaker 1>given the folk traditions about wolves in the Old World.

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<v Speaker 1>All those folk tales and biblical passages about ravening wolves

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<v Speaker 1>left colonists disoriented when America's wolves showed no aggression towards people.

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<v Speaker 1>But wolves in the numbers of America held were still unexpected,

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<v Speaker 1>and that led to a certain despair in sixteen thirties

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<v Speaker 1>New England, since, as Wood put it, there's little hope

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<v Speaker 1>of their utter destruction. So from the start the wolf

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<v Speaker 1>was an animal of special concern for Europeans. But why

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<v Speaker 1>Partly there was their lack of familiarity with the real thing.

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<v Speaker 1>England's own wolves hadn't lasted beyond the fourteen hundreds. Virginians

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<v Speaker 1>and New Englanders were living among wolves for the first

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<v Speaker 1>time in their lives, and, as Wood implied, they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>like it in the least. Then there were their imported

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<v Speaker 1>cultural traditions. When you had hearded domesticated animals for eight

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years, as these old worlders had, and was your

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<v Speaker 1>way of understanding how the world worked, there was a

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<v Speaker 1>natural tendency to see wolves as a supernatural malediction. For Christians.

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<v Speaker 1>Adams fall from the Garden of Eden into an earth

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<v Speaker 1>compromised by evil struck them as the self evident origin

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<v Speaker 1>of wolves, After all, didn't wolves share the yellow eyes

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<v Speaker 1>medieval illustration gave to Satan. Some of America's wolves were

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<v Speaker 1>even black, a coloring that to Europeans was suspicious in

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<v Speaker 1>the sixteen twenties. The actual explanation for black wolves lay

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<v Speaker 1>in scientific work four centuries in the future. A genomic

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<v Speaker 1>study from our time indicates that black coachs in America's

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<v Speaker 1>wolves sprang from a hybridization event between wolves and domestic

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<v Speaker 1>dogs in the northwest of the continent approximately thirteen thousand

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<v Speaker 1>years back during Clovis times. The mutation conferred a fitness advantage,

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps in disease resistance, that other wolves sensed, so the

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<v Speaker 1>visual clue of blackness affected mating choice, allowing at least

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<v Speaker 1>some black wolves to greet Europeans. Thousands of years later,

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<v Speaker 1>Native people admired wolves, whatever their color, for their bravery,

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<v Speaker 1>hunting skills, and devotion to mates and packs. Europeans saw

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<v Speaker 1>those same animals as bloodthirsty monsters, evil actors in a

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<v Speaker 1>fallen world. Folk stories of were wolves dim memories of

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<v Speaker 1>part human, part animal fantasies from the Paleolithic still circulated

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<v Speaker 1>in colonial times and fed a suspicion that wolves might

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<v Speaker 1>be avatars of a residual animality in humans, so the

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<v Speaker 1>unsuspecting animals were soon to enjoy the full colonial experience

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<v Speaker 1>of a wolf war.

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<v Speaker 2>The reality was that wolf.

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<v Speaker 1>Social lives and ecological roles were so similar to our

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<v Speaker 1>own that it was no accident that tamed wolves had

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<v Speaker 1>become our first domesticated animals twenty five thousand years before.

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<v Speaker 1>Wolf societies were much like human hunter gatherer bands. In both,

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<v Speaker 1>the leadership was usually matriarchal. The alpha female wolf directs

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<v Speaker 1>a pack's movements, while the larger males, especially those between

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<v Speaker 1>about two and five years old, are the primary hunters.

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<v Speaker 1>As highly social creatures, wolves are members of family packs

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<v Speaker 1>led by high status breeders who avoid breeding with close kin,

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<v Speaker 1>so a pack's grown pups eventually move out in search

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<v Speaker 1>of mating opportunities. While they're individualistic, wolf pups like young humans,

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<v Speaker 1>learned from their elders, they are steep in pack culture.

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<v Speaker 1>Wolves have strong emotional attachments. After absences, they greet by

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<v Speaker 1>standing on their hind legs, a greeting known as a rally.

0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.120
<v Speaker 1>They also interact with a remarkable range of body language

0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.720
<v Speaker 1>and facial expressions, howling, which is contagious for wolves is

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.840
<v Speaker 1>one of their common ways to express their emotional states,

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.040
<v Speaker 1>and it enables them to recognize distant wolves from the

0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 1>harmonic structure of their voices. No one knows how many

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 1>wolves were in colonial America, but since food determines pup survival,

0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.480
<v Speaker 1>the population of wolves in any given setting rested on

0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:33.520
<v Speaker 1>food availability. This means that packs competed with one another

0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:38.440
<v Speaker 1>for prime prey territories. In fact, before Old Worlders arrived,

0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 1>the main mortality in wolves came from other wolves. Europeans

0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:50.000
<v Speaker 1>imagined America's wolves as vicious slaughterers of helpless prey. In

0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.680
<v Speaker 1>the real world, something different was playing out. Chasing down

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.760
<v Speaker 1>in neck wrestling big animals armed with hooves and antlers

0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 1>is dangerous in the extreme despite their wrong jaw muscles.

0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.840
<v Speaker 1>The geometry of wolve's long muzzles actually inhibits their bite

0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 1>force so impossible, they go for low hanging fruit. Highly

0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:16.080
<v Speaker 1>perceptive about cost benefit, they scavenge animals already dead on

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.679
<v Speaker 1>the hunt. They try for fawns and young animals are injured, diseased,

0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 1>or old ones. Their strategy is to test prey in

0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.720
<v Speaker 1>search of those least dangerous and easiest to run down.

0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Even then, wolf chase.

0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 1>Success dips as low as ten percent. One of Western

0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.959
<v Speaker 1>painter George Catlan's memorable observations was about how dearly a

0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>wolf pack won a meal. Even an old or sick buffalo,

0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 1>he wrote, was a huge and furious animal, and would

0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:54.000
<v Speaker 1>often deal death by wholesale to his canine assailants, as

0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Catlan put it, which he is tossing into the air

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 1>or stamping to death under his feet. Catlan's painting White

0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:07.120
<v Speaker 1>Wolves Attacking Buffalo showed such a scene with an aging

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.800
<v Speaker 1>bull fighting a wolfpack with such resolution that, as Catlan wrote,

0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.679
<v Speaker 1>his eyes were entirely eaten out of his head, the

0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 1>grizzle of his nose was mostly gone, his tongue was

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.520
<v Speaker 1>half eaten off, and the skin and flesh of his

0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.560
<v Speaker 1>legs torn almost literally into strings. Yet even with the

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.520
<v Speaker 1>bull in that condition, numerous wolves, as Catlan said, were

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.680
<v Speaker 1>crushed to death by the feet or horns.

0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Of the bull.

0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.959
<v Speaker 1>This kind of wolf natural history was invisible to the

0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 1>new colonists, because all the settlers really cared about was

0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 1>fashioning a wolf free America. In fact, Woods, Massachusetts Colony

0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:51.800
<v Speaker 1>passed the first environmental law in colonial American history. It

0:18:51.880 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 1>was a bounty on the continents wolves. When Western travelers

0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.720
<v Speaker 1>like Meriwether Lewis, George Catlin, and John James Ottoman first

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.720
<v Speaker 1>observed wolves in the West, they referred to them as

0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.240
<v Speaker 1>the shepherds of the buffalo herds. Josiah Gregg said of

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.720
<v Speaker 1>plains lobos that although there were immense numbers of them

0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.359
<v Speaker 1>upon the prairies, their presence in the landscape was often

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:25.400
<v Speaker 1>determined by bison herds. In this regard, Western wolves resembled

0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.400
<v Speaker 1>grizzly bears, always found in largest numbers where they could

0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 1>scavenge buffalo drowned in rivers, or where weak animals were

0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 1>easier to attack. William Clark observed the most common wolf

0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.359
<v Speaker 1>hunting technique for buffalo in April of eighteen oh five,

0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.320
<v Speaker 1>when Lewis and Clark were ascending the Missouri through what

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:50.200
<v Speaker 1>is now North Dakota. Lewis wrote that Captain Clark informed

0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.560
<v Speaker 1>me that he saw a large drove of buffalo pursued

0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.879
<v Speaker 1>by wolves today that they at length caught a calf

0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 1>which was unable to keep up with the herd. An

0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.800
<v Speaker 1>old Pawnee adage, in fact, was that wolves ran down

0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 1>and devoured four out of every ten bison calves born

0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.879
<v Speaker 1>an ancient American equation that left both species healthy across

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.640
<v Speaker 1>at least half a million years. One trade everyone commented

0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.639
<v Speaker 1>on when they were first among the West wolves was

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 1>how tame they were, Having no reason to fear wolves.

0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.120
<v Speaker 1>Native people had long let them hang around camps and villages,

0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.000
<v Speaker 1>so Audubon had marveled at how wolves would lie on

0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:38.360
<v Speaker 1>the banks as their steamboat passed, yawning at them like dogs.

0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:43.080
<v Speaker 1>William Clark had an unconcerned wolf walk by so near

0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.480
<v Speaker 1>that he impulsively stabbed it with the ban at on

0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.960
<v Speaker 1>the muzzle of his rifle. At Fort Union, Audubon's party

0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:55.439
<v Speaker 1>was met by the American Fur Company's Alexander Culbertson, whose

0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.400
<v Speaker 1>chief hobby, when boredom set in, was running down wolves

0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:04.639
<v Speaker 1>on his Indian pony. As Audubon's companion Edward Harris described it,

0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.880
<v Speaker 1>with wolves in constant view, the trader offered their party

0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.000
<v Speaker 1>a little wolf entertainment.

0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Mister Culbertson, Harris tells us.

0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Started his beautiful blackfoot pied mare at full speed when

0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.919
<v Speaker 1>within half a mile of the wolf, who turned and

0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:26.720
<v Speaker 1>galloped off leisurely until mister Culbertson was within two or

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.560
<v Speaker 1>three hundred yards of him when he started.

0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:30.800
<v Speaker 2>Off at the top of his speed.

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Within the time it took Harris to scribble his account,

0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Culbertson was back at the post with the wolf draped

0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.520
<v Speaker 1>across the saddle horn shot through its shoulders as the

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 1>trader had chased him at breakneck speed across the prairie.

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.840
<v Speaker 1>It was an impressive performance, no doubt, so long as

0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.000
<v Speaker 1>you hadn't experienced it from the wolf end of the show.

0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Centuries of peaceful relations with native peoples had taught the

0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.560
<v Speaker 1>West wolves not to fear humans right old world folklore,

0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Western bar talk, and Hollywood's sensationalism. Today, like Liam Neeson's

0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.880
<v Speaker 1>twenty eleven film The Gray, the truth is that, except

0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 1>in the rare rabies case, the West wolves were in

0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.239
<v Speaker 1>no way aggressive towards people. In fact, it was a

0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 1>Western trope that both wolves and coyotes were rank howards

0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.879
<v Speaker 1>around humans. While scornful of canine cowardice, early observers in

0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.359
<v Speaker 1>the West never tired of commenting about how trusting wolves

0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:33.919
<v Speaker 1>seem to be trotting in front of their horses like

0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:38.960
<v Speaker 1>dogs are sitting and watching curiously as travelers passed within feet,

0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.879
<v Speaker 1>But soon enough, with everyone traveling the West's armed to

0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.479
<v Speaker 1>the teeth and taking shots at almost every wolf they saw,

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.160
<v Speaker 1>wolves learned to keep their distance. Rifle fire was an

0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.119
<v Speaker 1>initial and casual wolf persecution, but it was merely a

0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.560
<v Speaker 1>hint of the changes about to come. In rapid succession

0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:03.440
<v Speaker 1>across the nineteen shi century, with a wild animal products

0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.439
<v Speaker 1>industry well established in the West and many thousands of

0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:11.480
<v Speaker 1>overland migrants crossing the region every year, what should have

0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 1>been canine good times actually ushered in the end game

0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.679
<v Speaker 1>for the wolf West. In eighteen seventy two, the Brooklyn

0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:25.879
<v Speaker 1>painter John Gast distilled an important assumption about both Indians

0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 1>and the country's wild animals into a famous visual image.

0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Gas American Progress painting portrayed a blonde, giant and angelic

0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:43.640
<v Speaker 1>white garb striding across the West, stringing telegraph wires behind her,

0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:48.480
<v Speaker 1>with wagons of settlers in her wake. Disappearing off the

0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:52.000
<v Speaker 1>edges of the canvas were the native people, but also

0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:56.320
<v Speaker 1>herds of buffalo and packs of wolves consigned to the

0:23:56.359 --> 0:24:00.199
<v Speaker 1>margins of the future. Viewers of American Progress seen to

0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:04.200
<v Speaker 1>understand in an America modeled on Europe, not just the

0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:08.920
<v Speaker 1>native people, but all those iconic wild animals had to go.

0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Most Americans appeared to assume that in an America making

0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.320
<v Speaker 1>itself a clone of the old world, a fate of

0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.800
<v Speaker 1>animals like this was inevitable. Buffalo stood first in the

0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:25.800
<v Speaker 1>rank of those incompatible with civilization. Wolves well the plans

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:30.600
<v Speaker 1>since colonial times had been their total eradication. Eventually, other animals,

0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:35.520
<v Speaker 1>grizzly bears, cougars, jaguars, wild horses, eagles, and, judging by

0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:39.199
<v Speaker 1>the reaction to their extinction, even passenger pigeons joined the

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:46.200
<v Speaker 1>ranks of species. Civilization would not tolerate their destruction. Gas painting, implied,

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:51.200
<v Speaker 1>was no one's fault. Simply enough, Ancient America's time was over.

0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Incompatibility was a shame, but it seemed to comfort us.

0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.679
<v Speaker 1>Distilled from the imported nuts of East India tree, a

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:06.760
<v Speaker 1>substance called strychnine ushered in this new order. It became

0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:11.040
<v Speaker 1>available in America when a firm in Philadelphia began offering

0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:16.160
<v Speaker 1>cheap packages of strychnine in crystal form in eighteen thirty four.

0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Since there were few predators left in the East by then,

0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:23.600
<v Speaker 1>most of the poison went west, sold in bulk in

0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:28.200
<v Speaker 1>every store and trading post. Naturally, there were no restrictions

0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:32.000
<v Speaker 1>of any kind on its use. It was cheap, unregulated,

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:36.280
<v Speaker 1>and it was lethal chemical warfare. Western travelers used it

0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:39.160
<v Speaker 1>both to collect pelts and just to see its effects.

0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:44.199
<v Speaker 1>In an age inured to carnage, it was a horrifying killer.

0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Inside a few minutes, a white tablet gulped down from

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:52.440
<v Speaker 1>a bated carcass launched a victim into waves of convulsive cramping.

0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Poisoned wolves died from asphyxiation, but strychnine wrenched the body

0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:01.639
<v Speaker 1>so violently as to leave a signature death pose, a

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:06.200
<v Speaker 1>corpse with a sharply arched spine and a tail frazzled

0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:10.879
<v Speaker 1>as if the animal had been electrocuted on the frontier.

0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:14.840
<v Speaker 1>People who did this for a living were called wolfers,

0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:19.760
<v Speaker 1>a Western occupation we've probably deliberately left in the dust

0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.320
<v Speaker 1>bin of history so we didn't have to look at

0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:27.360
<v Speaker 1>it too closely. Poisoning animals didn't even require a wolfer

0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:31.280
<v Speaker 1>to be present, and unlike trapping, poisoning didn't call for

0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:34.520
<v Speaker 1>any sort of skill. You just baited a carcass or

0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.320
<v Speaker 1>put out chunks of meat laced with poison, and then

0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:40.040
<v Speaker 1>headed a camp to enjoy life while the strychnine did

0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:44.560
<v Speaker 1>his work. Teams of wolfers driving ox dron wagons began

0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 1>laying out strychnine in the Yellowstone Country as early as

0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:53.880
<v Speaker 1>eighteen sixty four. Approaching a buffalo or horse carcass that baited,

0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:59.240
<v Speaker 1>wolfers would start finding victims appearing sprayed across the landscape

0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:02.960
<v Speaker 1>as if by some spinning centrifuge a half mile from

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.359
<v Speaker 1>their bait animal. The targets were wolves and coyotes, but

0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:13.360
<v Speaker 1>the poison killed everything interested in a rotting piece of meat. Eagles, vultures, ravens, magpies,

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 1>red foxes, gray foxes, swift foxes, tiny kit foxes, skunks.

0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:24.880
<v Speaker 1>As these animals died, their convulsive vomiting sprayed poison across

0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:30.120
<v Speaker 1>the grass. Poison grass could take out collateral victims like horses.

0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:34.000
<v Speaker 1>When Native people lost ponies this way, they developed a

0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:38.639
<v Speaker 1>special hatred for wolfers. This kind of poisoning preyed on

0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:43.439
<v Speaker 1>a wolf's inclination to scavenge and avoid injury in a hunt,

0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:48.440
<v Speaker 1>and astonishing forty dead wolves per bated carcass was common.

0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:52.720
<v Speaker 1>One party in the Texas Panhandle picked up sixty four

0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:56.360
<v Speaker 1>wolves one morning, barely a mile from their camp. They

0:27:56.359 --> 0:28:00.240
<v Speaker 1>made four thousand dollars in one winter, and can this.

0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:04.600
<v Speaker 1>James Mead once poisoned eighty two wolves in a single

0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:09.280
<v Speaker 1>baiting in the Texas Panhandle. Into the eighteen nineties, Wolfer's

0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Jack Abernathy Alan Stagg, and Alec Lewis averaged two hundred

0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:18.240
<v Speaker 1>monsters that was their nickname for gray wolves a year,

0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:21.600
<v Speaker 1>killing two hundred and ninety six one year on a

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:26.600
<v Speaker 1>single giant ranch the Xit. For more than two decades,

0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:30.240
<v Speaker 1>wolf and coyote pelts traded as money in the West,

0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:33.400
<v Speaker 1>worth a dollar apiece and two dollars if you could

0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:34.600
<v Speaker 1>get the pelts all the way.

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:34.960
<v Speaker 2>To New York.

0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 1>There are no figures for this most disgusting of all

0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 1>wild animal economies, and for good reason, it's little remembered

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:46.800
<v Speaker 1>in the story of America. But there's every likelihood that

0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:51.280
<v Speaker 1>from the eighteen sixties through the eighteen nineties, poisoning wildlife

0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:55.360
<v Speaker 1>for money killed Western animals in numbers that competed with

0:28:55.520 --> 0:29:01.840
<v Speaker 1>the death tolls of Buffalo. For a couple of decades

0:29:01.880 --> 0:29:05.400
<v Speaker 1>after the Civil War, while US Indian policy herded the

0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:09.719
<v Speaker 1>tribes under reservations and Western market hunts produced the most

0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:14.200
<v Speaker 1>devastating slaughter of wildlife and world history. Wolves continued to

0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:18.680
<v Speaker 1>thrive despite strychnine, but with most of their prey animals

0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:22.600
<v Speaker 1>now erased, wolves were forced to turn to domesticated cattle

0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:26.920
<v Speaker 1>and sheep as prey, except those were the property of

0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:31.400
<v Speaker 1>ranchers who stood on eight thousand years of history of

0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:37.000
<v Speaker 1>battling predators, so now as hated symbols of wild America.

0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:41.120
<v Speaker 1>Wolves from the eighteen eighties through the nineteen twenties became

0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:46.200
<v Speaker 1>special targets in the in game wolf War. One stockman

0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 1>launched to convert the ancient world that acquired into a

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:54.160
<v Speaker 1>money making pasture for cow's sheep and the market. From

0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 1>the founding of the American colonies through the last decades

0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:01.160
<v Speaker 1>of the eighteen hundreds, bounties paid eight on wolf scalps

0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:07.320
<v Speaker 1>became the basic military strategy against wolves. Western stock associations

0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:11.200
<v Speaker 1>paid bounties in every Western state and territory, and bounties

0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:16.080
<v Speaker 1>on predators became a primary and acceptable act of governments too.

0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:21.680
<v Speaker 1>In Montana, the territorial government sometimes used up two thirds

0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:26.880
<v Speaker 1>of its annual budgets paying bounties on predators. Between eighteen

0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:31.520
<v Speaker 1>eighty three and nineteen twenty eight, Montana's governments paid bounties

0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:35.680
<v Speaker 1>on a staggering one hundred eleven thousand, five hundred and

0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:39.440
<v Speaker 1>forty five wolves and eight hundred eighty six thousand, three

0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:45.280
<v Speaker 1>hundred sixty seven coyotes, subsidizing both ranchers and wolfers. As

0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:49.600
<v Speaker 1>late as eighteen ninety nine, the state paid out bounties

0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:54.600
<v Speaker 1>on a whopping twenty three thousand, five hundred seventy five wolves.

0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:58.960
<v Speaker 1>It didn't stop there or even slow down. The war

0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:02.760
<v Speaker 1>against wolves and coyotes in Montana even produced a state

0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:07.720
<v Speaker 1>law passed in nineteen oh five ordering veterinarians to infect

0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:11.880
<v Speaker 1>any wild canines that came their way with sarcoptic mange,

0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:16.120
<v Speaker 1>then released them to spread the disease among the wild populations.

0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:21.160
<v Speaker 1>As a result, wild canids in Montana and Wyoming still

0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 1>suffer from a strikingly high mange infection rate even today.

0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 1>With this kind of multi pronged pressure, wolf populations went

0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:33.760
<v Speaker 1>under so dramatically that after bountying more than twenty three

0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:38.280
<v Speaker 1>thousand wolves in eighteen ninety nine, Montana paid for only

0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:43.480
<v Speaker 1>seventeen dead gray wolves in the year nineteen twenty, and

0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:49.080
<v Speaker 1>this ability to kill animals on mass Americans were absolutely unmatched.

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.959
<v Speaker 1>By the twentieth century, ranchers and wolfers were naming the

0:31:55.080 --> 0:32:00.160
<v Speaker 1>last individual wolves still alive in Montana the last This

0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.800
<v Speaker 1>one was called Snowdrift. In the Dakotas, the last one

0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:08.760
<v Speaker 1>was the custuerwolf, an animal charge with livestock depredations a

0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:12.360
<v Speaker 1>t rex couldn't have pulled off. At the beginning of

0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:16.880
<v Speaker 1>the century, a Canadian writer named Ernest Thompson Seton, who

0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:21.520
<v Speaker 1>had extensive outdoor experience and also employed scientific methodology in

0:32:21.560 --> 0:32:25.520
<v Speaker 1>his work, tried to take on the huge implications of

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:30.480
<v Speaker 1>the new Darwinism in the world around him. Setan moved

0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:33.719
<v Speaker 1>to New Mexico and began to write books, books that

0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:37.920
<v Speaker 1>strongly appealed to the new centuries readers. To counter the

0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:42.560
<v Speaker 1>so called nature read in tooth and claw conclusions that

0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:47.640
<v Speaker 1>others had drawn from Darwinian evolution, writers like Seton and

0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 1>Jack London looked for examples among wild creatures of traits

0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:58.920
<v Speaker 1>humans admired, individuality, compassion, cooperation, loyalty, and an ability to

0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 1>transfer culture learning across generations. One of Setan's most popular

0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:09.040
<v Speaker 1>stories employing this approach was about one of those legendary

0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:14.440
<v Speaker 1>last wolves in New Mexico's case a wolf Setan called Lobo,

0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:19.800
<v Speaker 1>King of Carumpa. Lobo was a male wolf Setan had

0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:22.880
<v Speaker 1>known years before he became a writer, when he was

0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:27.120
<v Speaker 1>himself a trapper and wolf hunter who had finally captured Lobo.

0:33:27.880 --> 0:33:30.800
<v Speaker 1>He had done that by baiting his traps with the

0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:35.840
<v Speaker 1>scent of Lobo's mate, a female wolf the ranchers called Blanca,

0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:40.920
<v Speaker 1>a beautiful animal Setan had trapped and killed while listening

0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:44.920
<v Speaker 1>to Lobo howling mournfully in the distance to no reply.

0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:50.400
<v Speaker 1>As Setan described him, Lolo was an amazingly canny wolf,

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:55.680
<v Speaker 1>but with one fatal flaw. That flaw was Lobo's fidelity

0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:59.640
<v Speaker 1>to his mate. Setan caught Lobo in traps laced with

0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:04.080
<v Speaker 1>Blockeka scent, and the ranchers then hauled Lobo alive to

0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:07.320
<v Speaker 1>a ranch yard and chained him there as a prize

0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:12.239
<v Speaker 1>to show the community. Within days, Lobo died, looking off

0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:14.840
<v Speaker 1>at the New Mexico planes that had been his and

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Blanca's world. Lobo's and Blanca's story first appeared in Setan's

0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 1>book Wild Animals I Have Known, and it was one

0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:28.240
<v Speaker 1>of the stories that gave that famous book its running theme.

0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Those in America who celebrated the destruction of the West

0:34:31.840 --> 0:34:36.400
<v Speaker 1>wolves sneered, but Setan's book was pointing towards a different

0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:40.959
<v Speaker 1>kind of future. The theme of wild animals I have known,

0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:46.279
<v Speaker 1>he wrote was simple, we and the beasts are kN.

0:35:05.239 --> 0:35:08.040
<v Speaker 3>So Dan, thinking about wolves. One of the points that

0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:12.960
<v Speaker 3>you raise in this episode is that the perception of

0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:17.319
<v Speaker 3>wolves coming from the old world doesn't match up with

0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:21.360
<v Speaker 3>the reality of wolves in the New world. And it

0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:23.239
<v Speaker 3>got me thinking about when we were working on our

0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:25.960
<v Speaker 3>Long Hunter project and our Mountain Man project. We do

0:35:26.080 --> 0:35:30.480
<v Speaker 3>have instances of guys being bitten by wolves, and it's

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.080
<v Speaker 3>always when they're sleeping around a campfire, and I had

0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:36.600
<v Speaker 3>sort of read that as we're working on it. I'd

0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:40.319
<v Speaker 3>read that as like evidence of wolves being all over

0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:44.759
<v Speaker 3>the place and just a presence on the landscape. And

0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:48.560
<v Speaker 3>then in light of your episode had caused me to

0:35:48.600 --> 0:35:54.160
<v Speaker 3>rethink it. These wolves are sneaking in and you know,

0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:58.760
<v Speaker 3>they're not super aggressive, they're just approaching guys when they're asleep.

0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:03.239
<v Speaker 3>I don't know that there's a question there necessarily, but

0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:04.959
<v Speaker 3>I mean with.

0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:08.359
<v Speaker 2>The Long Hunter instance, it was a rabbit wolf. Yeah,

0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and there's there's a rabbit there's.

0:36:09.600 --> 0:36:11.640
<v Speaker 1>A rabbit wolf rabbit mountain man at one of the

0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:14.560
<v Speaker 1>rendezvous too. Yeah, there's a wolf that runs around at

0:36:14.560 --> 0:36:17.319
<v Speaker 1>a rendezvous in the eighteenth things and bites people.

0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.000
<v Speaker 3>I guess it strikes me because you read it, you

0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:21.680
<v Speaker 3>write accounts from those periods, and you're like, Wow, wolves

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.840
<v Speaker 3>were everywhere, wolves were biting people. And then when you

0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:27.120
<v Speaker 3>take a step back and you sort of contextualize it

0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:30.719
<v Speaker 3>with how many wolves there were, there are sort of

0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 3>these rare, very rare instances that jump out to us.

0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:38.799
<v Speaker 3>But in the grand scheme of things, the wolves are

0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:41.160
<v Speaker 3>pretty much off on their own.

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:42.600
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, you.

0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:45.120
<v Speaker 4>Can find guy after guy after guy after guy that

0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:47.600
<v Speaker 4>gets tore up by a grizzly bear. Yeah, No, guys

0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:49.240
<v Speaker 4>are getting tore up by wolves, right.

0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:50.239
<v Speaker 2>No, they're not.

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:52.840
<v Speaker 1>And uh, I mean one of the reasons I wanted

0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:58.319
<v Speaker 1>to include that quote from the Massachusetts Bay Colony. This

0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:02.840
<v Speaker 1>is in William Woods's book that he publishes in sixteen

0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:06.680
<v Speaker 1>thirty two, when he's running through the accounts of all

0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 1>these new animals that are in the Americas, he makes

0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:19.600
<v Speaker 1>that statement that I, as far as I can find,

0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:25.920
<v Speaker 1>remains true all through American history, certainly through the West

0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:30.279
<v Speaker 1>and the West wolves. He makes that statement that there

0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:35.160
<v Speaker 1>has not been an instance where a wolf has set

0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:39.480
<v Speaker 1>upon a man or a woman in our colony, and

0:37:39.920 --> 0:37:43.120
<v Speaker 1>he's already said there are wolves around all over the place,

0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:46.280
<v Speaker 1>but there has not been an instance. And the reason

0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:49.800
<v Speaker 1>he said that, I'm pretty certain is because these people

0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:52.760
<v Speaker 1>came out of Western Europe. For one thing, England hadn't

0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:56.200
<v Speaker 1>had wolves since the fourteen hundreds, so there have been

0:37:56.320 --> 0:37:58.920
<v Speaker 1>multiple generations of people who the only thing they know

0:37:58.960 --> 0:38:02.360
<v Speaker 1>about wolves is, you know, these fairy tales and folk

0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:08.040
<v Speaker 1>tales that they've hurt handed down. Is they are expecting

0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:10.839
<v Speaker 1>once they hear that there are wolves in North America,

0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.560
<v Speaker 1>that wolves are going to be tearing people limb from limb,

0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:19.400
<v Speaker 1>and suddenly the reality is, wow, there's not been a

0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:22.879
<v Speaker 1>single instance where a wolf has set upon a man

0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:26.479
<v Speaker 1>or a woman in our experience. And that's kind of

0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:32.000
<v Speaker 1>what tracks through the story here, especially in the West.

0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:35.840
<v Speaker 1>What most people in the nineteenth century in the West,

0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:39.279
<v Speaker 1>especially after they had had generations of this kind of

0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:43.520
<v Speaker 1>interaction with wolves, what their reaction to wolves was is

0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 1>wolves are cowards. Wolves are not aggressive and are going

0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:51.960
<v Speaker 1>to attack you. They're cowards, and that became the detegration

0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:55.880
<v Speaker 1>that people levied against them. You know, the Native people

0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:59.160
<v Speaker 1>think am as boy wolves are these wonderful animals. They're

0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:04.120
<v Speaker 1>loyal to their families and you know, and they're brave,

0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:09.400
<v Speaker 1>and and the European euro American perspective was because the

0:39:09.480 --> 0:39:11.799
<v Speaker 1>wolves who are not of aggressive there are a bunch

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:15.200
<v Speaker 1>of cowards and that's that's how they.

0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:16.600
<v Speaker 2>That's how they respond.

0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:21.439
<v Speaker 4>There's a lot of I hesitate to say evidence because

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:23.880
<v Speaker 4>I don't know that I've seen it in evidentiary form.

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.440
<v Speaker 4>You hear people say that the wolves of Europe, the

0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 4>wolves in Romania, wolves in other places, that it's a

0:39:33.000 --> 0:39:38.040
<v Speaker 4>there is a there's a legacy of greater aggression and

0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:40.880
<v Speaker 4>like a higher propensity to attack people with some of

0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:44.440
<v Speaker 4>these Eurasian wolves, more livestock depredation.

0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Do you know that? Do you know that to be true?

0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:47.080
<v Speaker 4>Or is that?

0:39:47.440 --> 0:39:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Is that not true?

0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:52.959
<v Speaker 1>I know that that's what's thought to be true. That's

0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 1>what the folklore of the wolf is has always been,

0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:02.319
<v Speaker 1>and that folklore was brought to them America. So that's

0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 1>one of the you know, and it's still I mean,

0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.040
<v Speaker 1>I encountered people, you know, when I was living in

0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:10.040
<v Speaker 1>the Bitterroot Valley. Back a decade ago, I had a

0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:14.000
<v Speaker 1>neighbor who when wolves were recovering in the Sapphire Mountains

0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:16.960
<v Speaker 1>right above us, and I would occasionally see a pack

0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:19.080
<v Speaker 1>run across the road. As I would come home from

0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:21.880
<v Speaker 1>a graduate class at night at ten o'clock, pack of

0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.400
<v Speaker 1>wolves would run across the road. I could go outside,

0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:27.280
<v Speaker 1>usually two or three times a year, and I'd hear wolves.

0:40:27.320 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 1>How I had a neighbor who had grown up in

0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:32.920
<v Speaker 1>California who walked up to the house one day and

0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:35.640
<v Speaker 1>said something like, well, I guess you know that these

0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 1>wolves are probably I mean, we're in mortal danger. These

0:40:39.160 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 1>wolves are close, and these things they're going to tear

0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 1>my wife off the front porch and maul her in

0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:50.719
<v Speaker 1>the yard. I can't let my son and his granddaughter

0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:52.800
<v Speaker 1>come over because I know they're going to get my granddaughter.

0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:55.640
<v Speaker 4>And you know, I was trying to tell you they

0:40:55.680 --> 0:40:58.480
<v Speaker 4>haven't got man the tree, haven't got anybody.

0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:02.319
<v Speaker 1>They have, there's no but it did not work. I

0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:05.960
<v Speaker 1>told him that, and I could tell he was completely unconvinced.

0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.879
<v Speaker 1>And so these stories, I mean, they go obviously back

0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.040
<v Speaker 1>a long way into the old world. I mean, they

0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:14.799
<v Speaker 1>are still current with us where you know. And I

0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 1>went to a wolf conference in southern New Mexico and

0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:21.640
<v Speaker 1>Las Crusis one time, about twenty years ago, and there

0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:25.920
<v Speaker 1>was a woman who was representing the livestock industry who

0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:29.560
<v Speaker 1>showed our asseymbol throng of an audience of two hundred

0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:34.120
<v Speaker 1>and fifty people or so, how deadly Mexican wolves were

0:41:34.160 --> 0:41:36.360
<v Speaker 1>and how scary they were to have them on the ground.

0:41:36.680 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 1>And what she showed us was a photograph of a

0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:44.800
<v Speaker 1>cowboy in full shaps and hat and everything, his boots

0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:49.319
<v Speaker 1>running towards a front porch, running towards the photographer and

0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:53.480
<v Speaker 1>he's really balling the jack and back in the background

0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:55.799
<v Speaker 1>maybe one hundred yards away, so far away. She had

0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:58.279
<v Speaker 1>to draw a circle around it to make sure that

0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:01.560
<v Speaker 1>the audience saw it was a wolf standing in the road.

0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:05.359
<v Speaker 1>And she said, this is an example of how bloodthirsty

0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:06.120
<v Speaker 1>these wolves are.

0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:07.239
<v Speaker 2>Had he not.

0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Run for the porch, this wolf was going to pull

0:42:10.520 --> 0:42:13.960
<v Speaker 1>him down. Yeah, And it's a wolf standing curiously in

0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:17.440
<v Speaker 1>the road watching a cowboy in shaps run up the

0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:18.759
<v Speaker 1>up the dirt road.

0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:21.719
<v Speaker 4>There's a great way of looking at the risk. And

0:42:21.760 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 4>you see it with grizzly bears, And it'd be interesting

0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:27.360
<v Speaker 4>to look at it with contemporary Europe, you know, or

0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:28.719
<v Speaker 4>in your aging countries to.

0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:32.600
<v Speaker 2>Have wolves would be like, what are the odds.

0:42:32.440 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 4>Than in a given year any individual, Yeah, acts will

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:41.880
<v Speaker 4>have a violent altercation with a human, you know. And

0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:44.879
<v Speaker 4>then when you look at like the menagerie of North

0:42:44.880 --> 0:42:47.280
<v Speaker 4>American wildlife, it's like grizzlies.

0:42:46.800 --> 0:42:49.560
<v Speaker 2>Are grizzlies are mountain lions? Yeah?

0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:54.000
<v Speaker 4>Are well, Yeah, grizzlies are high and every and everybody

0:42:54.000 --> 0:42:55.920
<v Speaker 4>else is kind of like inconsequential. But I would be

0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:59.560
<v Speaker 4>curious to know, like if the europe if that European

0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:02.279
<v Speaker 4>sense which you see cited all the time when it

0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:07.360
<v Speaker 4>talks about the American the immediate American hatred of wolves

0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:13.560
<v Speaker 4>coming from this big bad wolf in Europe thing to

0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:16.440
<v Speaker 4>just be interesting to look at and be like, was

0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:19.160
<v Speaker 4>it any more was it any more true in Europe

0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:23.600
<v Speaker 4>than here? Or was it just as untrue there as

0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:29.040
<v Speaker 4>it was here? About the human health risk with wolves, Yeah,

0:43:29.080 --> 0:43:31.520
<v Speaker 4>not the inconvenience of livestock, but the health risk I.

0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Think, you know. And there's a guy who's who's written

0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:36.799
<v Speaker 1>a recent book which I just blurbed for him on

0:43:37.320 --> 0:43:39.400
<v Speaker 1>Europe's wolves. And what he did was there was a

0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:44.840
<v Speaker 1>wolf in Romania that tracked sort of a you know,

0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:50.520
<v Speaker 1>one of these single colonizing wolves, that tracked three or

0:43:50.520 --> 0:43:55.799
<v Speaker 1>four hundred miles from southern southeastern Europe towards France. And

0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.440
<v Speaker 1>this guy, a couple of years later, went out and

0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:03.759
<v Speaker 1>he that exact route that this wolf had taken and

0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:06.320
<v Speaker 1>wrote a book about it. And one of the things

0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:08.480
<v Speaker 1>he said that struck me because I.

0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:09.200
<v Speaker 2>Didn't know this.

0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Europe now has more wolves in it than the United

0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 1>States does. The United States, accepting Alaska, the lower forty eight,

0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Europe has more wolves than the Lower forty eight, and

0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Europe is attempting to be as welcoming of wolves as possible. Now, Obviously,

0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:33.800
<v Speaker 1>according to this guy's journey, he was running into people,

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:37.799
<v Speaker 1>you know, every few days who were outraged, just as

0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:40.879
<v Speaker 1>a lot of Montana ranchers are outraged that there were

0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:44.320
<v Speaker 1>wolves returning to Europe, and so some of those same sensibilities.

0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 1>But it's going to require somebody doing a book to

0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:52.000
<v Speaker 1>try to find whether or not evidence actually exists, because

0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.160
<v Speaker 1>some of the things I've read about wolf attacks in

0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:58.760
<v Speaker 1>Europe are well okay, So there's always the rabid animal

0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:03.839
<v Speaker 1>that's that could be involved, and there were evidently a

0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:10.319
<v Speaker 1>lot of wolf dog hybrids and those animals, at least

0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.520
<v Speaker 1>some people have argued, may have been responsible for some

0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:18.080
<v Speaker 1>of the attacks that have so anyway, it's that kind

0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:21.680
<v Speaker 1>of story. And obviously in the nineteenth century when people

0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:24.160
<v Speaker 1>are coming west. I mean, what I tried to get

0:45:24.160 --> 0:45:26.839
<v Speaker 1>across this episode is that hell wolves have been They

0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:29.319
<v Speaker 1>had been in the West and in America for five

0:45:29.440 --> 0:45:34.880
<v Speaker 1>million years. All of the wildlife, the way trees and

0:45:35.080 --> 0:45:38.960
<v Speaker 1>grass grew was sort of dependent on there being this

0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:42.279
<v Speaker 1>keystone predator at the top of everything. So it's a

0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:45.839
<v Speaker 1>little bit like taking the beavers out or taking the

0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:50.680
<v Speaker 1>sea otters out. When you do that, the ecologies start

0:45:50.760 --> 0:45:55.000
<v Speaker 1>scrambling and changing because you've got in place this animal

0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:59.480
<v Speaker 1>that's been there for millions of years and producing its

0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:02.799
<v Speaker 1>effect the world. And yet you know, we come from

0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:06.200
<v Speaker 1>the old world with this kind of wolf hostility, and

0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:09.319
<v Speaker 1>our task immediately is to try to get rid of

0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:10.880
<v Speaker 1>them is just as fast as we can.

0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:17.600
<v Speaker 3>I think one thing that I've gotten from your work

0:46:17.760 --> 0:46:23.320
<v Speaker 3>in terms of just how I conceptualize and certain animals,

0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:29.120
<v Speaker 3>this relationship between coyotes and wolves and they look alike,

0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:33.160
<v Speaker 3>but there's obvious differences. But this idea that you know,

0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:36.520
<v Speaker 3>wolves go up, coyotes go down, foxes go up, and

0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:41.520
<v Speaker 3>it's sort of this continuous balancing act between these. I

0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:44.080
<v Speaker 3>don't know if you can sort of talk about the

0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:47.440
<v Speaker 3>coyote story because that's obviously an area of expertise, but

0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.560
<v Speaker 3>how that relates to the wolf story, because there's some

0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:54.160
<v Speaker 3>interesting parallels, but then obviously those two animals, their histories

0:46:54.200 --> 0:46:55.720
<v Speaker 3>diverge in very clear ways.

0:46:56.600 --> 0:46:56.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:46:56.880 --> 0:47:00.759
<v Speaker 1>So I've done obviously the Old Man America episode on

0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:05.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, the Native stories about coyote with a capital

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:08.080
<v Speaker 1>C as the deity figure, and I'm going to do

0:47:08.200 --> 0:47:12.719
<v Speaker 1>one more episode later in the year that's going to

0:47:12.800 --> 0:47:17.799
<v Speaker 1>be about the sort of the coyote story because the coyote,

0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:22.279
<v Speaker 1>unlike wolves, Europeans had no familiarity with coyotes, and so

0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:25.520
<v Speaker 1>they didn't actually know what to think about them, and

0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:29.759
<v Speaker 1>it took, you know, some time, It took particularly you know,

0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:33.920
<v Speaker 1>Mark Twain in roughing it sort of giving Americas on

0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:37.239
<v Speaker 1>America's an idea of how to think about coyotes, and

0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:42.279
<v Speaker 1>and it was not a favorable and appraisal unfortunately. But

0:47:42.360 --> 0:47:45.520
<v Speaker 1>coyotes and wolves obviously go back a long way. They

0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:49.960
<v Speaker 1>are closely related. They can hybridize, although one of the

0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:53.319
<v Speaker 1>interesting things that's happening these days is that coyotes will

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.840
<v Speaker 1>readily hybridize and the wolves will too, with eastern wolves

0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:00.439
<v Speaker 1>and red wolves, but not gray wolves. And the gray

0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:03.680
<v Speaker 1>wolves that are in the West seem to be sort

0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:07.640
<v Speaker 1>of mortal enemies of coyotes, and we have some explanations

0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:09.319
<v Speaker 1>for that, and I can talk about them a little

0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:15.200
<v Speaker 1>later in the series. But they're closely related, they're related

0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:20.640
<v Speaker 1>enough to hybridize. But I had a biologist at the

0:48:20.680 --> 0:48:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Predator Research Facility in Logan, Utah tell me one time

0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:31.919
<v Speaker 1>that they had deliberately induced a pregnancy and a coyote

0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:39.359
<v Speaker 1>with wolf sperm, and when she had this litter, she

0:48:39.400 --> 0:48:40.799
<v Speaker 1>immediately killed every one of them.

0:48:41.320 --> 0:48:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:46.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she killed every one of them within a day,

0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:48.720
<v Speaker 1>her own pups.

0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:53.080
<v Speaker 4>Her hatred wolves greater than her love of her own children.

0:48:53.400 --> 0:48:56.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, her love of her own pups.

0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:01.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the end of a book. Yeah, read

0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:05.560
<v Speaker 2>that to my kids at night. Yeah, they love that.

0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Not that and she ate them.

0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you know, I mean one of the stories

0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:13.440
<v Speaker 1>I obviously told in this this particular episode is about

0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:16.600
<v Speaker 1>the Wolfers, which is uh and I you know, have

0:49:16.640 --> 0:49:19.320
<v Speaker 1>to observe that's not of sort of a Western figure

0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:23.080
<v Speaker 1>that has made it into Hollywood movies. But holy cow,

0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:28.799
<v Speaker 1>these guys they killed untold thousands of animals and not

0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:31.880
<v Speaker 1>just wolves because the baits, the strych nine baits they

0:49:31.880 --> 0:49:34.840
<v Speaker 1>were putting out. They were killing everything that came and

0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:38.040
<v Speaker 1>took the baits. So they were killing eagles and ravens

0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:42.080
<v Speaker 1>and hawks and skunks and raccoons and foxes and coyotes

0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:43.960
<v Speaker 1>and you know, and also wolves.

0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:45.759
<v Speaker 4>I'll tell you another interesting bycatch.

0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:47.560
<v Speaker 2>They would get yeah in.

0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.239
<v Speaker 4>Life and Death at the Mouth of the Muscleshell, which

0:49:50.280 --> 0:49:51.440
<v Speaker 4>is like a trader's journal.

0:49:51.520 --> 0:49:52.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Uh.

0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:56.959
<v Speaker 4>They it seems like when they get little free time,

0:49:57.360 --> 0:49:59.439
<v Speaker 4>like the guys in this little community which is now

0:49:59.560 --> 0:50:03.239
<v Speaker 4>under the wa waters of Fort Peck Reservoir, they kind

0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:05.600
<v Speaker 4>of like, as they get a minute or they get

0:50:05.600 --> 0:50:07.960
<v Speaker 4>the right amount of drunk or whatever, it's decided that

0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:11.839
<v Speaker 4>they'll go and lace some baits, just like a fall

0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:15.319
<v Speaker 4>like nothing else nothing better else to fall back is

0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:18.919
<v Speaker 4>lay some baits in it. He talks about, I can't

0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:22.320
<v Speaker 4>even remember what tribe it is. They come in pissed

0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:30.759
<v Speaker 4>because they've lost twenty four of their dogs to a bait. Yeah,

0:50:31.440 --> 0:50:33.120
<v Speaker 4>and they want to raise it. They want to raise

0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:33.880
<v Speaker 4>a fuss about it.

0:50:34.000 --> 0:50:35.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And.

0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Of strict nine poisoning because wolves and coyotes would vomit

0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:46.560
<v Speaker 1>the stryct nine onto the grass, and Indian pony herds

0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:48.920
<v Speaker 1>would if they happen to be herded in that spot,

0:50:49.400 --> 0:50:53.839
<v Speaker 1>and aiding that grass horses would suddenly die from being

0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:55.000
<v Speaker 1>killed by strick nine.

0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:59.000
<v Speaker 3>What's the This might be a two technical what's the

0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:01.480
<v Speaker 3>half life or whatever? The appropriate term would be a

0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:04.360
<v Speaker 3>strictionne it seems like one of the like a heavy

0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:09.000
<v Speaker 3>metal almost that is just sort of it's accumulates and yeah,

0:51:09.000 --> 0:51:11.160
<v Speaker 3>like where does it end? The horse eats the grass

0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:14.239
<v Speaker 3>and the horse does then yeah, comes against the horse.

0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:15.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I wish I could answer that question. I don't

0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:19.799
<v Speaker 1>really know, but I do think it remains toxic, you know,

0:51:19.920 --> 0:51:24.480
<v Speaker 1>exposed above ground in a form that another animal can

0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:26.160
<v Speaker 1>get for quite a while. Yeah.

0:51:28.760 --> 0:51:31.640
<v Speaker 4>One last question for you on this. Dire wolves been

0:51:31.640 --> 0:51:35.719
<v Speaker 4>in the news Colossal Bioscience, Colossal Biosciences, where you and

0:51:35.719 --> 0:51:41.200
<v Speaker 4>I are on the conservation advisory board. They've taken they've

0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:47.319
<v Speaker 4>identified some dire wolf genes I believe nineteen, and we're

0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:50.880
<v Speaker 4>able to put them, combine them with a gray wolf,

0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:54.040
<v Speaker 4>and then use surrogate pops to birth some Yeah, and

0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:58.319
<v Speaker 4>it's sparked this huge debate of how you know when

0:51:58.320 --> 0:52:01.040
<v Speaker 4>they when when someone declares it a dire wolves, Like,

0:52:01.040 --> 0:52:04.319
<v Speaker 4>what does it require to say an animal is what

0:52:04.360 --> 0:52:06.400
<v Speaker 4>it is? Does it have to pass the look test?

0:52:07.200 --> 0:52:11.120
<v Speaker 4>Does it have to pass the genetic purity marker?

0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:12.319
<v Speaker 2>Like?

0:52:12.320 --> 0:52:14.640
<v Speaker 4>Like, who gets to say that that's what that is?

0:52:15.560 --> 0:52:19.520
<v Speaker 4>And you and I had talked before about.

0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Even if you had, if you knew you had.

0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:26.880
<v Speaker 4>The complete animal, how do you account for the culture?

0:52:28.200 --> 0:52:28.360
<v Speaker 2>You know?

0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:31.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's the to me, the whole thing. And

0:52:31.520 --> 0:52:36.360
<v Speaker 1>we have talked about it, say, because animals have culture,

0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:41.319
<v Speaker 1>and so particularly for social animals like wolves, I mean,

0:52:41.400 --> 0:52:45.920
<v Speaker 1>they teach their pups what the potential prey is, how

0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:49.960
<v Speaker 1>to function in a landscape. And these are animals that,

0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:54.080
<v Speaker 1>these these dire wolves, if that's what we can call them,

0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:57.880
<v Speaker 1>that are not going to have any culture to rely

0:52:57.960 --> 0:52:59.880
<v Speaker 1>on the culture they're going to be taught basically as

0:52:59.880 --> 0:53:04.319
<v Speaker 1>whatever they're human handlers are exposing them to, you know,

0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:06.480
<v Speaker 1>And the other thing about this. I mean, this is,

0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:09.560
<v Speaker 1>as you and I both know and I've talked about,

0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:13.759
<v Speaker 1>this is a kind of a genetic experiment to see

0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:20.959
<v Speaker 1>if it's possible to de extinct an animal, and canids

0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:24.760
<v Speaker 1>appear to be easier to do this with than anything else,

0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:28.800
<v Speaker 1>and so that's why Colossal ended up doing this wolf

0:53:28.840 --> 0:53:34.480
<v Speaker 1>experiment to begin with. But you can't really say that

0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:39.239
<v Speaker 1>these animals ultimately are dire wolves. They're wolves that are

0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:41.440
<v Speaker 1>going to have some direwolf genetics, and we're going to

0:53:41.600 --> 0:53:43.400
<v Speaker 1>get a chance to see. I mean, one of the

0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:47.960
<v Speaker 1>things obviously that these genetic these spliced in genes have

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:51.320
<v Speaker 1>done is they've produced animals that are white, and that's

0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:55.360
<v Speaker 1>one of the arguments that dire wolves probably had white coats,

0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:58.799
<v Speaker 1>particularly thick white coats, and these animals have that. I

0:53:58.800 --> 0:54:01.400
<v Speaker 1>think the next testing to be interested in is to

0:54:01.440 --> 0:54:06.680
<v Speaker 1>see exactly how big they get, because our perception, particularly

0:54:06.719 --> 0:54:09.440
<v Speaker 1>from Librea tar pits, where there are just hundreds of

0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:12.880
<v Speaker 1>direwolf skulls available from dire wolves that were caught in

0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:16.880
<v Speaker 1>the tar there is that dire wolves were probably about

0:54:17.000 --> 0:54:21.080
<v Speaker 1>twenty five thirty percent larger than gray wolves, which means

0:54:21.600 --> 0:54:25.760
<v Speaker 1>if these animals get to adulthood, and they do express

0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:27.880
<v Speaker 1>direwolf genetics. I mean they're going to weigh one hundred

0:54:27.880 --> 0:54:31.120
<v Speaker 1>and sixty hundred and sixty five pounds or something. So

0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:35.439
<v Speaker 1>that's going to be I think, an interesting test to see.

0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:38.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how it's going to turn out, but

0:54:38.520 --> 0:54:39.879
<v Speaker 1>it's a very fascinating.

0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:44.160
<v Speaker 4>It's it's been just for the debate in the conversation

0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:48.640
<v Speaker 4>that it's inspired about kidding about wildlife and the role

0:54:48.680 --> 0:54:52.440
<v Speaker 4>of wildlife and extinction. My first date with my wife,

0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:54.759
<v Speaker 4>my very first date, we went to Librea tar pit

0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:58.120
<v Speaker 4>it is and they have a display on a wall

0:54:58.320 --> 0:55:04.680
<v Speaker 4>of seventy five wolf skulls, and I have a skull

0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:07.160
<v Speaker 4>shelf in my house that was inspired by the It's

0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:10.400
<v Speaker 4>not lit the same way, but it was inspired inspired

0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:12.640
<v Speaker 4>by that, inspired by that, and I got in trouble

0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:14.600
<v Speaker 4>on my first date because we want you know, they

0:55:14.640 --> 0:55:19.200
<v Speaker 4>play those movies on Circle. Well, I'm sitting there and

0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:21.279
<v Speaker 4>we come in and we watched the end half of

0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:25.480
<v Speaker 4>a movie and I found myself explaining, so what we'll

0:55:25.480 --> 0:55:30.560
<v Speaker 4>do is we'll watch the end half and then it'll

0:55:30.600 --> 0:55:35.200
<v Speaker 4>start over and we'll just watch up to where I started.

0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:38.080
<v Speaker 2>And she's like, oh that this is how that that

0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:39.600
<v Speaker 2>that's how this works. Oh thank you for.

0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:44.359
<v Speaker 4>Thank you for explaining. I was toy lost as how

0:55:44.400 --> 0:55:50.359
<v Speaker 4>we're gonna see the whole movie. Thanks for helping me out.

0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:52.840
<v Speaker 4>I just couldn't visualize how this is gonna work.

0:55:55.480 --> 0:56:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, well guys, thanks for all the question man.

0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah this is this has been great fun as always.

0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:04.200
<v Speaker 2>Ye all right

0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:20.279
<v Speaker 4>M mmmmm