WEBVTT - Ep. 161 — How Employers Leave Black Workers Behind 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:22.480 Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, we're back. 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:24.520 We're black, We're brown. It's Tiffany. 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:25.960 Guys, it's Mandy. 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.400 This is kind of rando, but I think I'm going 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.760 to for you know, Valentine's Day is coming up, and 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.239 I secretly think like Superman told me he didn't care 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.640 if I changed my last name. But I think he 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.000 does care because I think I caught him on the phone, like, 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.920 you know, not ear hustling, but ellel the walls are thin, 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.760 and I think that like he because he was like, nah, babe, 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:46.519 keep your name, you know, like I don't, you know, 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:47.760 I don't care, it doesn't matter. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:49.080 But I think he does care. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.440 So I think for Valentine's Day, I'm going to surprise 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.600 and be like I'm applying for a name change. 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:55.680 Oh wow? 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:56.200 Is it? 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:58.840 Like is it a formal application like with Social Security? 0:00:58.880 --> 0:00:59.520 Is that what you mean? 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.480 I don't even knows. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.039 There's just some like I was like, it's funny because 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:07.840 it made me think of it, because I mean, not 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:08.959 just you're hustling him. 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:10.720 But there was this ad. They came up with my 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.800 ig feed and a friend of mine used them. It's 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:14.280 like this you. 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.160 Pay like one hundred and fifty Bucks and like they 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:18.959 take care of all the whatever paperwork and whatever for you. 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.000 So I think I'm just going to do that because honestly, 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.279 I don't want to have to figure out all these things. 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:25.920 So but I'm gonna I'm going to keep it'll be 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.800 a hyphenated name and then because I'll still professionally be 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.120 Tiffany Eliche because I feel like it's too late to 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.280 kind of change that now, you know, but at least 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.479 I'll be like personally Tiffany Leche his last name, you. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.400 Know, Yeah, how romantic. I changed my name on Facebook 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:42.759 and I. 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.440 Was like there you go, Oh did you did you 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.040 take on his name? Like like. 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:50.040 What do you mean? 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.360 Like not really, I haven't contacted any government agencies, but 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.840 I'll put it on some mail and sometimes I use 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.560 a cell phone number and then put my name on 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:00.680 it like Santos, you know, just so. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:04.920 What do you want? You know? And it's not even 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:06.320 that I didn't want to change my last name. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.440 I'm just not gonna lie that. The thought of paperwork 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:10.840 was like, oh God, did I have to get a 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.160 new everything license? 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:13.919 Past world? Who has the time? 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.000 See, I don't think it's worth all that, But I 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.920 think what matters more. Is like, so I think my 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.800 husband does like appreciate it because during the house stuff, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.680 just to not confuse anybody working on the house, you know, 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:26.639 I went with his last name for all of the 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.400 you know, all the vendors and whatnot. But you know, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.320 when I was cutting those checks, that says my last 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.760 name on it, and I think that's fine presenting as 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:38.560 the last name is the thought. 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.520 I think that's exactly too. And then also too, you know, 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.640 we welcome a kid. I don't want to be the 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:44.760 only one without. 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:45.800 The last name up in the house. 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.720 Like, hey, you know one of these one of these 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.880 round round pigs doesn't fit with the square holes. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:56.560 So yeah, yeah, did you catch the Grammys this weekend? 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.200 See my girl Licia Keys doing an amazing job. 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:00.799 I it was really good. 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.120 Honestly, I was like at a conference speaking, so I 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:06.880 never do you have to watch TV in the hotels? 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:08.560 I never do, but anyway I didn't, but I heard 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:09.680 it was actually really good. 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.560 Of course I watched TV and hotels hotel rooms like. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:14.800 I never had cable for a long time, so whenever 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:16.560 I was at a hotel, I was like, ooh, fixed 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.440 a rupper, like I ever just watched HGTV for whatever, I. 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.120 Never do because you know what it is. I am 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:23.679 one of those. I'm like the old lady that can't 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.720 figure out the remote. You know, look like your mom 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.200 and your aunt was so usually I'm like soap back. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.440 She's like, oh my god, you as the press the 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.120 green button, then the blue button, the up and down, the 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:34.519 left and it right. I'm like, see, that's why I 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.720 just call you because all these buttons it used. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.320 To be on back in my day. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.680 Well, the Grammys were really good. I mean they got 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.320 I guess the big headline was that so many women 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.440 performed and so many women also won awards. And last year, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.560 like someone high up in the Grammy's land had said 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.680 that in response to not very many women being represented, 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.480 was like, well they need to step up. So so 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.000 it was nice to see so much girl go powa 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.720 and like Michelle, it was kind of confusing. At the 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.760 top of the show, they had Alicia's hosting and I 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.080 love her, but then she had like five famous women 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.800 come out and tell them like basically say what music 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.120 meant to them, and that included Lady Gaga. Makes sense, 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.919 she was a musician, and it was Jennifer Lopez and 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.599 then Alisha who I'm forgetting someone. Michelle Obama was like 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.440 the surprise guest. People lost their minds. 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:26.240 But then Jada Pinkett. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.640 Was there one I was like she what why? But 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.719 I mean, like we alla, but it seems one of 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.119 these things does not belong. But yeah, it was cool, 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:39.240 it was cool, and yeah it was just a really 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.120 it was a fun night. I feel like Alicia made 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:42.680 the show. I don't know if I would have watched 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.320 if it hadn't been Alicia as the as the as 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:51.040 the host. But yeah, cool. So what conference for you at? 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.800 It's called the IF Conference. My new mentor. 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.280 Then I tell you about my mentor, the one who 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.200 I think I mentioned her, the one who owns the 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:04.479 jewelry company like she's got. Her name is Jessica, Jessica Hoenagger. 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.240 She owns this jury company called New well it's not 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.720 just jewelry, but a company called Noonday and oh and 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.520 d a y. I met her at this other conference 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.760 and we were talking and I just happened to mention. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:17.760 You know. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:19.240 She asked me what I was, what business I had, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:20.680 and I told her and she was telling me about 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.680 her business and it's very similar in its I guess 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:25.360 in its mission. 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.120 But her mission is I mean as far as like 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:28.320 wanting to help people. 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.240 So her mission is that she goes around world and 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:37.279 finds vulnerable populations of women and you know, and pays 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.960 them to do whatever kind of like local artists and 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.640 craft things and pays them well things that they do. 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.359 And and then women here, it's kind of like almost 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.520 like avon. Women here then can can sign up to 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.240 be an ambassador to Noonday and then sell it. It 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:56.039 started because she she was doing mission work in Rwanda 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.719 and and you know, we all rid of the Rwanda 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.920 genocide not too long ago, and it left a lot 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.880 of kids without parents, and so there was a little 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:06.120 boy she wanted to adopt. 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:07.440 And then the recession hit. 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.080 That recession, I tell you blessing and a curse, and 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.520 so the money that she had set aside was basically 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:15.760 gobbled up during the recession and so she didn't know 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.520 what to do because she really wanted to adopt this 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:21.320 little boy. And so what happened was some of the 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.760 people that she kind of connected with in Miwanda said well, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.680 what if we, you know, donate some like crafts and 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.000 things to you and then you can sell it and 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.040 you know, get the money to pay for the adoption. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.919 So that's what she did. And then her friends were like, well, 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:36.720 where'd you get this? I want to sell some stuff too. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:38.960 She's like, no, I'm just selling it, you know, just 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.320 so I can you know, this is just a fundraiser 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:41.599 to it. 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.159 So I can go through with the adoption. 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.800 But people just kept talking about because the stuff was 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.760 really beautiful, and she thought, well, maybe this is gonna 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.440 be a business. So she made it up to adopt 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.080 her son and she started a business. And as we 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.400 were talking, I'm like, this is beautiful because her thing 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.640 is she really wants to to eradicate moder and day 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.800 slavery because so many it's largely women that she gets 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:04.800 the crafts from, and so many of them, you know, 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.120 are forced to work in brothels or sex trade or 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.920 just dangerous situations, and they them being able to create 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:15.800 these crafts already like women. I bought this bracelet from 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.160 a certain collection called the Storyline Collection, and all of 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.240 the women who made those bracelets, they were from this 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.840 brothel in South America, and already over ten of those 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.440 women have been able to leave the Brahmafel and just 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.520 do this full time. And so it's just dope to 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.440 be able to wear something that's beautiful but also know 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.480 it's something beautiful. And then she told me that her 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.000 business is the fastest growing direct to market jewelry business 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:38.320 in the world and. 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:39.160 She's won all these awards. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:40.960 After I came home and I googled her and they 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.600 crossed over the twenty million dollar mark and an annual 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.360 gross revenue, and I'm like, what, So, here's somebody who 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.240 was doing good work, having good people, but making amazing money. 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.840 And so I was like, you're my new mentor, because that's. 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:53.760 What's called one of the business. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.760 And we should have her on noon and oh and noonday. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:07:59.480 She's just such a good person, you know, you know, 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.000 I meet someone and you're like, she's just such a 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.520 really kind and good person who really cares about the world. 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:07.120 But still such a boss. 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.240 I told her, like looking at her as like what 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.680 I hope to be in like ten years, like this 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.280 big boss that still has maintained like your integrity and 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.600 like really wanting to help people and keeping that first. 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.400 And so she asked me that the conference last minute 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.480 couldn't find I guess somebody for like a finance panel 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:24.520 until she asked me to come. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.120 So I did. That's what I did last weekend. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.360 Everyone there, like her sunshine just has spread everywhere. And so, 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.000 I mean my sister Tracy, who is the ultimate skeptic, 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.200 is like she is like so dope, and I'm like, 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.200 I know, right, just like I don't know. 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.360 She radiates goodness from within and God, hope, you know, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:43.880 hopefully this is weird. 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.839 I mean I believe so because you know, just her 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.720 energy from the inside. She just you know, just to 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.200 see someone who is dedicated to helping make the world 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.680 better but it's still running a super super successful business 0:08:57.800 --> 0:08:59.800 because you know, you worried that like at some point 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:01.720 I start to grow, Am I going to have to 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.520 sacrifice one for the other? And looking at Jessica and 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.880 where she is, the answer is at least at the 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.640 eight figure mark. No, you know, yeah, so, And like 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:13.520 I said, it was, it was. It was nice IF conference. 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:15.679 It was very Christian need the IF conference, and I 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.720 believe in God, So it was I'm not gonna lie. 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:19.160 I know you're from set down South. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.240 Where are we going with us? No? 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.719 No, no, no. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.440 What I was gonna say is that because you know, 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:26.280 in the Northeast. 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.679 I'm used to, like because I went to like a 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.080 majority like white church, so I'm used to churches you know, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.280 with white folks it's a certain kind of way, and 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.320 the churches with black folks it's a certain kind of way, 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:37.960 you know. 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.599 And so it was very interesting because. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:45.199 I don't know, i'd really experienced Christianity where it looked 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.960 the same for black folks and white folks in the South, 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.840 you know, like very like gregarious and you know. So 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.480 I was like, it was an interesting experience to see, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.520 like it's almost like church in the South is Baptists 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.760 like that kind of energy no matter what your racist, 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.120 and I had not really you know, so that I. 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:04.680 Think that's I think it depends on where you go. 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.000 Like I was definitely at white churches that were very 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.720 like hoity toity and you know, very like prim and proper. 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.000 But I think, yeah, Baptist church in the South, you could. 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.679 I mean there are country women, like country white women 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:18.800 who are I don't know if you ever saw It's 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:20.480 like a good example is like you ever seen that 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.720 black Jeopardy skit on SNL. I'm just like laughing thinking 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:24.160 about it. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:26.080 I had, You're gonna send you this one. 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.360 Keenan Thompson plays Alex Trebek's character, and anyway, they always 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.959 have like really funny categories like oh no, she didn't 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:39.280 for four hundred dollars And anyway, they had one time 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.439 Tom Tom Hanks played like a country white dude, and 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.280 you know, he showed up as one of the contestants 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.880 with like three other three other black contestants and they're like, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.360 who's this white guy. He's not gonna get any of 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.680 these answers right, and he got everything right. 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:55.600 Good. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.640 But I'm telling you some country people, like when you 0:10:57.640 --> 0:10:59.959 get down to the Deep South, like country is country 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.679 and white black country, and you know, that's that's a 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.000 that's a storyline you don't usually ever see because it's 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.600 always like the white you know, Southern people hate black 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.880 Southern people. But sometimes it's like they are kin folks, 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.000 and it's more like an economic it's it's more like 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:17.959 a socioeconomic status, you know, connection than a racial one. 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:19.360 So it's like they grow up in the same area 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.960 at the same you know, level of income. And then anyway, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.079 I'm getting all in the in the weeds here. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.320 But but it was just very it was very interesting. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.600 I definitely was like, oh, oh, oh, we have a 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:33.559 church church. Yeah, but it was interesting, and I say, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.800 everybody was super nice, and so I never even heard 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:37.960 it's called the IF I IF conference. 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:38.600 Mandy. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.679 It was like six thousand people in the audience and 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.640 nearly a million people watching like over like streaming. 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:45.720 Isn't that crazy? 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:46.480 Wow? 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:51.160 So enough about me. We have an exciting guest. 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.400 Yes video, Mandy, you secured in super exciting guests and 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:56.840 I can't wait to interview her. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:58.959 Let's jump in, Yeah, let's jump in. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:00.559 So let me tell you about our guests to we'll 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:01.880 take a quick break and then we'll come back with 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.120 our guests. But her name is Ada Harvey Wingfield. She's 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.680 a professor of sociology at Washington University in Saint Louis. 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.040 And what caught me it's not that I knew her beforehand, 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.160 but I came across this article I actually mentioned as 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.840 my Brown Break a few weeks ago in the Harvard 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.480 Business Review and did a really good job kind of 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.960 delving into the ways that black workers, especially in like 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.280 corporate America, are often failed and it's not by any 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.679 wrongdoing on their part, but by failings from the organizations themselves, 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.720 and I think at a time where you're seeing you know, Starbucks, 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.079 you know, and every other company rolling out diversity training 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.839 when they have a really embarrassing public you know, incident happened, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:42.959 like a racial incident happened. I just feel like it 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.280 was this article was kind of refreshing to kind of 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.800 sit back and realize that there's you know, there's things 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:49.760 that companies are doing wrong, but there's ways that they 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.360 could do it a lot better to better support black workers. 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.320 And a lot of what she writes about in this article, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.760 which I'll include in the show notes, just really struck 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.200 a chord for me. I invited doctor Wingfield to join 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.560 the show and she'll talk about her article and some 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:09.560 of the ways she's found employers can actually hinder the 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:13.640 progress of black workers in America. And she also has 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.440 a new book coming out this June, which we'll talk 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:17.040 about as well. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.160 Yes, come on into the let's. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.760 Okay, save it. We'll take a quick break and come 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.400 back and talk to doctor Ada Harvey Wingfield. 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:53.960 And we're back. 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.079 So, if you are like me and Mandy Well mines 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.000 are like Mandy, have you ever worked in an environment 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.559 as a woman, especially as a woman of color, and 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.680 you felt a little uncomfortable, You felt like your organization 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.200 was not really doing right by you, or just just 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:11.240 wasn't enough of you. 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:12.680 Well, we had. 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.640 And amazing guesterday, Doctor Adia Harvey Wingfield. She wrote this 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.840 article for the Harvard Business Review because We're fancy, you know, 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.680 called how organizations are failing Black workers and how do 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:26.400 we do better? 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:28.200 Welcome doctor Adea. 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:29.760 Thank you, Thank you for having me. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.600 Yeah, thanks for letting me be a little creepy fan 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.760 nerd and reach out to you out of the blue. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:36.720 Hi be on my. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.280 Podcast No Problem. Great. 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.160 Well, one of the things I loved about the story 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:42.960 itself was that I feel like this is the kind 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.400 of thing that we all know to be true, but 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.960 we don't talk about it that much, Which is, you know, 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:48.920 there's a lot of things working because I well, a 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:50.360 lot of the times you just try and grin and 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.360 barrett and pretend like there's nothing keep stopping you from success. 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.640 You know, that's the way in America is just to 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.160 pull yourself up by your bootstraps and succeed. But you know, 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.920 you point out three different ways in this article that 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.200 you have found in your research that you know employers 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.160 are actually setting up black workers in some ways to fail. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.320 So I wondered if we can just kind of walk 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:12.680 through some of the reasons that you outline in your 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.560 in your article and then happy to talk more about 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.640 the research that you've done into this issue. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.040 Yeah, sure, I'm happy to. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.160 So the article is a kind of summary or are 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.320 pulling together of a lot of studies, Some are my 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.800 own and some are ones that colleagues have done to 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.320 make exactly the point that you just mentioned. There's definitely 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.320 a disparity for black workers, particularly in professional jobs. But 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.240 a lot of times these disparities are pronounced and made 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.280 worse by things that organizations are doing. A lot of times, 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.480 I think this is unwitting, and I think that it's 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.760 useful for organizations to know, and particularly managers to know 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.560 about the research that's out there about ways that they 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.400 can create changes to make them places that are more 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:58.040 suitable and welcoming. 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:58.760 For black workers. 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:00.840 So one of the things that I talk about in 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.160 the article is that organizations can change and be more 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.360 welcoming for black workers if they stop relying on social 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.680 networks for hiring. And this has become really common in 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.560 our current economy, again, particularly for professional jobs. Many managers 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.400 rely on their networks, on people that they know to 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.880 point them towards jobs, and on the face of it, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.280 that doesn't sound like a big deal, but the problem 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:27.680 comes because most of our networks, particularly for white Americans, 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:29.720 are pretty ex white. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.800 So when managers are networks are relying on. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.600 People that they know to point them towards jobs, especially 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:41.119 professional ones, that can unwittingly end up reproducing racial segregation 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:41.760 in the workplace. 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:42.680 So that's an issue. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.960 A second thing that I point to is that organizations 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.360 often have adopted a model where they don't focus as 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.000 explicitly on racial and gender diversity anymore. And that might 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.840 sound weird because we know now that many companies do 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.120 talk about wanting to diversify, but the research shows when 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.800 we dig into what that actually means, a lot of 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.920 companies employ a really broad and. 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.040 General definition of diversity. 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.800 So that leaves them in a position where they can 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.080 say that they're focusing on diversity, but the managers who 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:16.320 are actually tasked with this focus on diversity very broadly defined, 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.720 so it can include regional diversity, diversity of thought. 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:23.040 Color. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.760 A good question color managers about this, and the thinking 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:30.719 behind that is that if we have a lot of 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.760 different viewpoints among a certain group, then we've got diversity 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:39.840 of thought. So the problems with that are that diversity 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.400 of thought may not be as diverse as you think. 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.720 And that also doesn't take into consideration the way that 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:51.360 systemic processes exclude racial minority men and women of all races. 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.600 Right. But this is how you end up with statements 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:54.800 like one. 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.200 A few years ago where a vice president for I 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.520 think it was Apple at the time made the remark 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.000 that you can have twelve blond haired, blue eyed white 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.640 men in a room and they'll still be diverse because 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.359 they have different experiences that I'm. 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:13.399 Too, yeah, point that out, I mean, yeah. 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:13.920 Right, And so that's what I mean, that's what managers 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.800 refer to when they talk about diversity of thought. That 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:21.720 doesn't equip if they're approaching this diversity from that standpoint. 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:22.840 That doesn't give them. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.639 The tools to think about strategies and programmatic management that 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.960 they can do to address the ways that black people 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:35.240 in particular often are marginalized and sidelined in organizations because 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:36.800 if you're not actively trying to. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.399 Address these things, they don't get solved. So that's the 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:40.280 second issue. 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.520 The third issue that I mentioned in the article is 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:47.639 that organizations often end up in situations where managers often 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:53.320 implicitly but not always subtly, decide who they think best 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.639 fits into certain organizational roles. And what happens for that 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.639 is that when people are interested in applying for jobs 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.920 or people people are interviewing for jobs, subtle biases make 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.960 it seem as though black workers are suitable for lower 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.040 status jobs but not really that acceptable for higher status, 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.399 high ranking positions. So this is where we hear a 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.120 lot of people talk about culture or fit. 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.320 Right, there's something about this candidate. I just don't know 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.639 if they fit. I can't put my finger on it, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.919 but they just don't seem quite right for this organization. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.840 And those types of strategies again work to the disadvantage 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.200 of black workers in organizations, again often for professional jobs, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.320 because these are the types of positions where subtly and 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:41.480 implicitly there's a message that black professionals are an oxymoron 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.600 and that black workers don't fit in these types of 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.840 high status jobs. So I wrote the piece to draw 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.119 attention to these issues and to make the point that 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.560 not only do they exist, there also are strategies for 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.120 change there are things that research has shown that organizations 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.240 can do to try not to focus in those ways 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.840 and not to rely on these patterns that we know 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.840 from research are disadvantageous to black workers. 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.640 Yeah, what are some of the positive ways employers can 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.159 lift up and help black workers succeed, you know, once 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:12.680 they're already in a position at a job. 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.680 Right, great question. So, generally speaking, research does point to 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.840 some solutions. You mentioned affinity groups in particular, there's some 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.600 research that suggests that affinity groups can be useful for 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.800 helping underrepresented. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:26.720 Workers feel a little bit. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.840 More socially supported in these types of environments. That's inconsistent 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.520 across occupations. So, for example, a colleague of mine has 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:38.520 studied women working in the geosciences industry and has shown 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.920 that for women in that particular field, affinity groups don't necessarily. 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:43.720 Have the same reward. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.280 But other research shows that for black workers in particular, 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:51.040 affinity groups can be really helpful in helping to feel 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.159 more of a sense of support and solidarity, especially in 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.919 environments that are sometimes unwelcoming. Interestingly, although we hear a 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:03.120 lot about diversity and diversity training, research has shown that 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.320 diversity trainings in particular, are not really as helpful as 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:08.520 we might think. And I have some colleagues who have 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.120 shown that diversity trainings have not been shown to actually 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.240 show any marked improvement in improving the numbers of underrepresented 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.640 groups in high status positions and organizations. 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:19.600 And my own. 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.520 Research has actually shown that diversity trainings have some adverse 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.760 consequences for black professionals. They can lead to emotional alienation, 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.000 particularly in context where black workers feel as though their 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.320 white colleagues are free to share their emotional responses, but 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.840 that they, as black professionals, have to conceal or suppress 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.640 their own responses to racist things that their colleagues might 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:46.840 end up saying in those settings. So diversity trainings themselves, 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:48.760 while still fairly. 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:50.359 Widespread, are not really that effective. 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:55.439 Research does show, however, that when organizations actually commit to 0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:01.080 establishing explicit measures and tasking someone with response stability for 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.280 creating more racial diversity, then that actually is where we 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.879 see improvement. So, in other words, if organizations have the 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.760 resources and offer the support to a manager and make 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.920 it clear to that manager that your job is contingent 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.720 on getting this done, perhaps unsurprisingly. 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.360 People react Accordingly. People don't want to lose their jobs. 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:24.919 So when organizations give managers this institutional support, when they 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:26.920 give them the resources, and when they make it clear 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.840 that the focus has to be not on diversity of thought, 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.120 not on diversity of region, not on diversity of opinion, 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.160 but that they want to actually see changes in terms 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:37.600 of racial and gender. 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.040 And ethnic diversity. That's when we actually do see the 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:40.560 needle move. 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:42.840 When you're at a higher status in your organization and 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:44.480 you're a person of color, you're like, you're more likely 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.960 to have more influence versus someone who's in a lower 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:50.199 ranking position who's trying to point out or maybe too 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.119 afraid to point out, hey, we could be doing a 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.040 better job recruiting or you know, supporting people. 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:56.600 Right. 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:58.520 That actually was one of the findings that came out 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.320 of my book project. I don't know if we want 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.800 to talk about that already, but I'm happy to if. 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.320 That's for the book. What's the book called. 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:10.600 It's called Flatlining, Race, Work and Healthcare in the New Economy. 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:13.720 It's out this summer, right out this summer. It should 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:17.640 be out this late June, early July, so coming out 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:18.200 pretty soon. 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.040 But yeah, that was one of the. 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:22.840 Interesting findings that came out of my book that when 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.840 we talk about how workers try to make changes in organizations, 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:31.919 what I found from studying healthcare workers, doctors, nurses, physician assistants, 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.720 and technicians is that how workers try to make changes 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.119 depends on where they're situated in the organization, and that 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.679 for doctors, because they had a lot of status, and 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.920 because they had a lot of relatively speaking, a lot 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.680 of power and an ability to make changes, they were 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.880 more likely to try to address the structural procedures that 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:54.439 lead to black black workers being underrepresented. 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:54.880 In the medical profession. 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.600 That's not as easy for say, technicians, who don't occupy 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.600 the same structural position and don't necessarily have the same 0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:05.880 ability to request and try to institute far reaching change. Now, 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.560 one additional thing I'll say, though, is that when we 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.119 talk about workers who are at different levels and the 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:15.520 occupational strata, it's important to be mindful that just bringing 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.160 in one person or even two people. 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:20.320 Usually is not really an effective solution. 0:24:20.720 --> 0:24:22.760 There's a recent report about this that came out from 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:25.359 mckensey and lean in where they refer to people who 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:28.600 are that underrepresented as onlies, and what they show is 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:31.679 that people who are onlies deal with a lot more harassment, 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:34.080 they think about quitting a lot more. They feel a 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.600 lot more alienated and isolated. This is a problem that 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:41.479 some organizations still make this thinking that, well, we can 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.560 hire one or we can hire two, and we've done 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:46.560 our job now. And like you just said, Mandy, the 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:49.000 thinking then becomes, now that we've got one, we can 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.320 tap them to do a lot of the diversity work, 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.720 or we'll put them on this committee where they'll. 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:55.119 Just solve all of our problems. 0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:58.520 But that's not really an effective strategy, and the research 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:01.879 has shown that it's not effective because one person usually 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:05.199 isn't equipped to make the sort of systemic change necessary 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.879 for organizations to really be restructured to be more viable 0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:09.480 for all people. 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:12.960 If you are the only Sometimes it feels like you 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:16.199 put internal if you put pressure on yourself to do 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:20.000 things that aren't necessarily asked of you. But that stress that'll, that'll, that'll, 0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:22.160 you know, stress you out, Like I need to be helping. 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:23.920 I am in a position where I should be helping 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:26.600 and I need to do more, but it's not always 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:28.760 it doesn't feel like you really can make an impact. 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.760 And I think that maybe a bit of you know 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:33.840 why some people, if you're the only one in your job, 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:36.199 think about leaving as you do feel kind of like 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:39.240 powerless to change it. But you see the problem. 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:42.359 So doctor ly, I just find this your work and 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:45.359 your research to be really interesting. So I have a unique, 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.880 I guess perspective because I so I run a company, 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:52.840 and I would say eighty five to ninety percent of 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.320 the women that work with us or the people that 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:58.600 work with us are women, and of those women, almost 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:00.600 all of them, not even almost all of them, all 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:05.480 of them are women of color. And so it created 0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:09.120 like an environment like no other. So I never worked 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:11.240 in corporate America before I started my business. 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:12.240 I was a school. 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:15.800 Teacher, so I didn't it's hard for me to track 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:18.600 the difference. But it's like so many of the women 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:20.800 that come to me and work with me. 0:26:21.520 --> 0:26:24.280 Had such traumatic experiences in corporate America. 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:28.720 I was just talking to my COEO and she was like, 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:33.280 she's having a hard time sometimes adjusting too that she 0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:35.920 doesn't have to be afraid to admit that she doesn't 0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:40.159 know how to do something, or like afraid when you 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:43.959 know she needs a little more time, or just like 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.720 no one's taking credit for the work that she did, 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:50.639 and it's just been such an adjustment and just so 0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.880 interesting to see like kind of like this trauma that 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:56.480 these women are bringing with them and from some of 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.320 the corporate not everyone, but some of them, some of 0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:02.960 the corporate guess experiences that they've had, and to work 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.680 in a company where you know that that's not the issue. 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:08.320 I mean, not that we don't have other issues, but 0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:09.800 you are surrounded by. 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:12.320 Women of color, and we help women of color, you know, 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:14.480 and the women of color are in positions of power, 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:16.200 and a woman of color owns the business, you know. 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:21.800 Absolutely, yeah, I mean, unfortunately that doesn't surprise me what 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:23.320 you're saying. I wish that it did, but it's so 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:26.040 consistent with what we know from from the research. 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:27.720 And another additional point. 0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:30.080 That I would just add is that the challenges of 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:32.520 being that only one and in the minority. 0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:35.400 Not only are a problem for those. 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:37.520 Two are experiencing it, but they It sends a very 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:40.080 particular message to others as well, and I think in 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:43.760 a weird way, it reinforces this idea that people of color, 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:47.800 black people in particular, don't belong right, because it takes 0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:50.000 me back to this idea of tokenism that people who. 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:52.800 Are the only one or the only one. 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:57.080 Of a particular underrepresented group become representative of that entire group, 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:02.359 and usually adverse ways. They are in a position where 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:04.679 if they make if they have a success, then the 0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:07.760 success is seen as unusual for someone of that group. 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.320 If they make a mistake, the mistake is seen as 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:13.600 an example of why organizations don't hire people who are 0:28:13.600 --> 0:28:16.199 members of that group. So for the Black women that 0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:19.400 you're describing who are coming from corporate America, chances are, 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:21.359 based on the numbers and the statistics that we know, 0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:25.880 they've probably been very underrepresented, and they've probably been experiencing 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:28.920 a great deal of this phenomenon of tokenism. They become 0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:31.680 seen as people who stand out, who are different, who 0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:34.760 don't blend in, who don't fit with the majority of 0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:38.600 the group, people whose mistakes are then used to justify 0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:41.520 why we don't hire black women for these types of jobs, 0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:45.080 and people whose successes then conversely don't become viewed as 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:47.280 a reason why we should hire more Black women for 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:51.320 these types of jobs, but become an example of unusually, 0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:54.320 become an example of an unusual outcome rather than something 0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:58.640 that's representative and we know from virtually all the research 0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:00.760 out there that this just takes an a more toll. 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.160 It takes an emotional toll, it takes a social toll, 0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:06.400 it takes a psychological toll, it takes an economic toll, 0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:10.200 because these have consequences for how workers are able to advance, 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:13.280 how they are paid with their wages are and for 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.320 keeping other workers out of these positions where there could 0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:19.000 be collective power and number that could try to change 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:19.680 these structures. 0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:24.280 Yeah, can we talk a little bit about how it's 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:26.920 it shouldn't all the onus shouldn't always be on black 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:29.160 workers to fix problems at diversity. And like, one of 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:31.040 the things that I've respected about some of the leaders 0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:34.400 I've worked with over the years is there's often, you know, 0:29:34.640 --> 0:29:38.400 white managers or white executives who will acknowledge it's not 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:40.760 just a black people or a minority problem. It's a 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:43.000 universal problem for all of us to fix as a team. 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.000 So even if you're not a person of color, you 0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:48.200 should be making diversity a priority when you're recruiting or 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:50.120 you know, in the way that you're writing. You know, 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:53.040 for me, it's all about in journalism, it's often even 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:56.200 journalists are guilty of writing to a specific audience or 0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:01.560 assuming things about black people in their story, and it's 0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:04.040 up to you know, editors, even if they're not black 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:06.600 or a person of color, to call out those types 0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:10.280 of things. And yeah, it's I and you know the 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:13.120 way that you're kind of seeing some managers step up 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:15.360 and take on their responsibility. That's like the only way 0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:18.520 I feel like there can be change unless, you know, 0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:23.000 unless organizations are willing to just you know, immediately even 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:24.920 out the like level of the playing field and hire 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:28.120 a bunch of people of color. It's got to be 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:31.360 that way, Like people who aren't minorities have to stand up. 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:33.880 No, absolutely, I mean, this is one of the points 0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:34.520 that I make. 0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:35.440 In my book. 0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.680 The focus of the book is on how economic changes 0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:41.560 are having an impact on black professionals, and like I said, 0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:44.520 I focus specifically on workers in the healthcare industry. And 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:46.120 one of the things that I find is that these 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:49.080 economic changes are having an impact on the way these 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:52.640 workers encounter racism. But that also is structured again by 0:30:52.680 --> 0:30:55.560 where they fall in the organizational hierarchy. 0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.160 But these workers are also trying to change. 0:30:57.920 --> 0:31:01.040 The organizational structures that they inhabit different ways that also 0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:02.520 depend on the jobs that they have. 0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:04.160 But the point that I really try to. 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.040 Drive home and the conclusion, is that a big part 0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:09.520 of the problem is that these workers are doing so 0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:13.280 much labor without any real organizational support, and in a 0:31:13.280 --> 0:31:16.520 lot of cases they have the perspective and the feeling, 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:21.280 sometimes explicitly sometimes implicitly that organizations are actually relying on 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:23.840 them to do this work without any support. In other words, 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.760 they know that the senses that managers and organizations know 0:31:27.920 --> 0:31:30.479 that for black workers, it's very important to try to 0:31:30.640 --> 0:31:32.840 create more equitability, it's important to try to do this 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:37.080 diversity work, so the senses that companies and managers just 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.520 let them do it, but that this doesn't also overlap 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:43.200 with or lead them to getting any sort of institutional 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:43.840 support for. 0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:45.680 The work that they're doing. And to me, that's the 0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:46.480 biggest problem. 0:31:46.680 --> 0:31:49.560 It's not necessarily an issue that you have black workers 0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:51.480 who are doing a lot of labor to try to 0:31:51.560 --> 0:31:55.800 change companies and to make them more relatable and more accessible. 0:31:55.960 --> 0:31:58.120 But you can't ask people to do this work on 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:00.520 top of the things that are actually part of their 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:03.840 real job descriptions and not compensate them for it, or 0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:07.400 not recognize that they're doing it, or worst case scenario, 0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:09.720 penalize them for the fact that they're doing all of 0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:11.080 this extra work that takes. 0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:12.720 Away from the jobs that they were hired to. 0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:16.320 Do, and then end up firing them or not promoting 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:18.640 them because they've been doing all of this extra labor. 0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:20.440 But I think that's the situation. 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:22.960 That we're in right now with so many organizations, that 0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:26.239 there's just the expectation that organizations want to meet their 0:32:26.240 --> 0:32:28.480 bottom line, they want to make their money, they want 0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:30.960 to say that diversity is important, so they bring in 0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:33.360 one or two black people in certain jobs. 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:37.200 But then the implicit expectation becomes. 0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.480 Now that you're here, solve our problems, fix things up, 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:44.000 make it better, and we'll just allow you to do that, 0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:46.120 and we'll allow that to become. 0:32:45.880 --> 0:32:48.000 An additional part of your work. But what we're not 0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:48.360 going to. 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:51.440 Do is take these responsibilities on ourselves. What we're not 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:53.800 going to do is tie your compensation to the fact 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:55.800 that you're doing this extra work. What we're not going 0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:58.440 to do is offer you any additional recognition. I don't 0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:00.600 know if either of you watch Insecure, but it kind 0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:02.640 of reminds me of the scene at the end of 0:33:02.800 --> 0:33:06.120 I think season two when Molly the lawyer, the character 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:09.480 who's a lawyer, basically was trying to angle for more money, 0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:12.400 and her job offered her the certificate of appreciation, told 0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:14.160 her they will put it on the web page. 0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:15.320 Right, what is that? 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:20.440 That's crazy, that's that's not a pay raise, that's empty recognition. 0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:21.960 And I think that was a key part of what 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:22.280 they were. 0:33:22.240 --> 0:33:24.880 Trying to communicate in that episode, that this is all 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:28.600 too often what happens to black workers in these organizational settings. 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:31.160 And it's a little bit different because Molly wasn't necessarily 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:33.320 going out of her way, or they didn't show Molly 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:35.560 necessarily going out of her way to do a whole 0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:37.960 bunch of work to try to change the organization. But 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:41.080 they certainly had that episode in the first season when 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.160 they wanted her to talk to the other younger black 0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:45.040 woman attorney and help her to fit in. 0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:46.440 So again. 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:51.000 One so again, you're still having her do this extra work, 0:33:51.040 --> 0:33:53.280 you're not compensating her for it, and you're offering her 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:55.480 a certificate that goes on the website, which is not 0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:57.920 what she requested and does not add up to equal pay. 0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:00.520 It's a fictional show, I get that, but I felt 0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:04.440 that that was very reflective of a lot of black people, 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:05.920 right exactly exactly. 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:08.359 It was very reflective of what a lot of. 0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:10.920 Black women encounter in these types of corporate settings because 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:14.600 organizations simply in many cases are not making the moves 0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:18.200 to spread this work around more broadly and more widely. 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:20.160 And I think that goes to the point that Tiffany, 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:23.000 I think you were just making and I think Mandy 0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:25.320 you were saying this too. If this doesn't become something 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:29.879 that becomes universally shared and widely seen as the organization's job, 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:33.319 it falls to black workers in ways that end up 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:37.040 maintaining inequality because they're still doing more work and they're 0:34:37.080 --> 0:34:38.920 not getting compensated for that work. 0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:40.800 Yeah. 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:43.560 One of the things you talk about too, And you know, 0:34:43.719 --> 0:34:46.080 something that I found is like, sometimes when you're the 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:49.040 only one when things are happening that impact your community, 0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:52.799 like the past brutal few years in terms of just 0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:57.320 unarmed people of color being killed by police officers, for example, 0:34:57.560 --> 0:35:01.560 or everything happening in the White House. You know, right now, 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:04.279 it's nice to turn to someone that it works because 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:05.880 we spend so much time at our office, you know, 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:07.719 for those of us in the ninety five world with 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.120 your colleagues, and it's nice to turn around and feel 0:35:10.160 --> 0:35:13.160 like someone understands that there's things happening in the bigger 0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:16.480 world that could impact you during your work day. And 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:19.000 what have you found in terms of like workplaces that 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.200 are going out of their way to open up a 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:23.879 safe space. I hate to use that, like really cliche term, 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:26.799 but in safe space for colleagues to just like talk 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:29.000 about what's happening in the world that could be impacting 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:30.640 them if it has nothing to do with work, but 0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:32.799 could be impacting them because of their race, or their 0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:33.880 ethnicity or their creed. 0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:35.120 Sure. Sure. 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:37.640 One of the most interesting examples that I think of this, 0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:39.719 that I think is happening right now is with Price 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:42.800 Waterhouse Cooper. I believe they are still doing this initiative 0:35:42.800 --> 0:35:46.080 that's called the Color Brave, which I believe is supposed 0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:48.160 to be a contrast to being color blind. And I 0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:51.759 know that this got started by the CEO after a 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:56.440 spate of highly publicized police shootings of black men. I 0:35:56.440 --> 0:35:59.040 believe this would have been maybe twenty fifteen or so, 0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:01.640 but it was the year that Alton Sterling was killed 0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:04.520 and then within twenty four hours Filando Castile was killed. 0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:06.080 Both were killed by police. 0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:10.319 Neither of them. Well, I believe in Alton Sterlin's case, 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:11.120 he was not armed. 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:14.480 In Fialando Castile's case, as we know, he was a 0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:18.240 registered licensed gun owner who was still shot by police 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:22.320 despite not breaking any laws. So I believe my understanding 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.160 was that the CEO of Price Waterhouse Cooper came to 0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:28.759 this recognition similarly to what you just described, that you 0:36:29.080 --> 0:36:32.440 can't in this day and age, have a diverse workforce 0:36:32.640 --> 0:36:37.239 but act as though that diversity doesn't have implications for 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:40.399 how workers are dealing with and interacting with each other 0:36:40.560 --> 0:36:43.520 and coping with things that are happening in their lives. 0:36:44.040 --> 0:36:45.799 And we see some recognition of this. 0:36:45.880 --> 0:36:48.880 I think when we talk about the ways that companies 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:51.560 need to be more attuned to work family policy and 0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:54.480 work life balance to use another kind of cliche phrase, right, 0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:57.560 But when organizations talk about this in most cases, I 0:36:57.560 --> 0:37:00.000 think they're referring to gendered issues that we want to 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:03.080 be mindful of how workers have families, and to think 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:07.440 about how we can institute flexible work hours and institute 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:10.719 policies that allow people to balance their life outside of 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:13.279 home with their life at home. They're excuse me, their 0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:16.560 life outside of work with their life at work. I 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:20.040 think that it's necessary if we're going to really equip 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:22.799 our workforces for the twenty first century, which is going 0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:26.400 to be a lot more multiracial, a lot more demographically diverse, 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:27.520 we've got to. 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:28.839 Do the same thing when it comes to race. 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:30.640 We have to acknowledge that we live in a racially 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:34.440 stratified society that has meaning and that has consequences for 0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:38.080 black workers, and that we can't pretend that work life 0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:41.759 balance means that for black workers, being black somehow has 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:44.480 no meaning or significance, or that that meaning or significance 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:46.920 just drops away when you enter the office. 0:37:47.000 --> 0:37:49.720 That's not true. We know that's not true. That doesn't even. 0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:52.600 Make any sense to think that way, right, So, if 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.759 organizations are really going to be more diverse in a 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.680 way that meets the needs of their employees, things like 0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:01.920 this Color Brave initiative to me sound really intriguing and 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:05.320 interesting because they do take into consideration the whole person, 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:07.920 and they take into consideration the whole person in ways 0:38:07.920 --> 0:38:11.640 that acknowledges that if we're talking about black workers, part 0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:14.440 of that whole person means people who are coping with 0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:18.520 the consequences of ongoing racial inequality and that that's going 0:38:18.520 --> 0:38:20.960 to have an impact on them both at work and 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:21.759 outside of work. 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:25.360 Well, doctor Wingfield, thank you so much for joining bran Ambition. 0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:27.759 You guys can check out her book coming out this 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:31.640 June twenty nineteen called Flatlining Race, Work, and Healthcare in 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:32.480 the New Economy. 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:34.359 That's right, Thank you so much. 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:52.880 Well, thank you. That was an awesome, awesome interview. But 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:56.840 now it's time for booster to break for all my family. 0:38:57.280 --> 0:39:00.400 Will you boost? Will you break? What will you do? Mane? 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:01.000 Oh my god? 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:06.480 That was so good and I didn't even plan it freestyling. 0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:09.759 Yeah, Honestly, I don't know where these gifts come from. 0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:11.359 So I just be a jingle writer. 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:14.400 God just us with your presence. 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:17.000 No, So are you going to boost? Are you going 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:17.480 to break? 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:19.080 I want to do a boost. I want to do 0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:21.400 a boost because I can't wait for twenty twenty and 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:26.440 the Democratic race is already just like the most girl 0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:28.879 power race in history. I think we have a record 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:34.040 number of women putting their hat in the ring for president, 0:39:34.080 --> 0:39:36.920 which is really really awesome. So what you know, no 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:40.120 matter who, probably what party you know you're affiliated with 0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:43.359 or whatever, I think is still really dope to see 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:46.760 the impact of this feminine wave. You know, post Trump, 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:50.480 post Trump America is female America. So I'm just I'm 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:52.680 excited the odds are in our favor to have a 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:53.520 woman president. 0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:57.040 Oh we shall see. But yeah, so that is a 0:39:57.080 --> 0:40:00.400 really good boost. My boost is a little less serious. 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:03.440 Actually, I want to boost in Divisil line. 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:06.279 They need to sponsor our show. So, Mandy, you saw 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:08.840 me when we went to go take for Yahoo Finance, 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:11.520 and you didn't even notice that I had my visil 0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:12.240 line in, right. 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:16.160 Yeah, I was actually shocked because I have noticed it 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:19.399 in people before, especially people who accidentally eat with them 0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:20.840 in and then you really notice. 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:23.759 But yeah, I could not tell. They look really good. 0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:25.839 Yeah, and I'm not gonna tell. 0:40:25.920 --> 0:40:28.439 I guess they opened up with like, well, they gave 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:30.440 me nine They call them like trades or whatever. 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:32.760 So that's just the set of the uppers and lower. 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:34.560 So I had nine weeks because every week you have 0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:35.920 to switch out the old ones to put in the 0:40:35.920 --> 0:40:36.360 new ones. 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:37.359 So I'm at the end. 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:40.400 The one I'm wearing now is my last one. I 0:40:40.440 --> 0:40:42.920 have to go this week to get my next set. 0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:46.560 But honestly, I'm seeing such a difference I because I 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:47.719 have to have them for a year and a half, 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:49.399 so I just assumed it was going to be really 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:54.080 slow progress. But it looks like it's I'm not gonna 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:54.799 lie like, I'm like. 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:56.600 Wow, this has only been nine weeks. 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:58.759 I can only imagine at the end of the year 0:40:58.760 --> 0:41:02.279 and a half there's been a tremendous change. And so 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:06.160 I mean everyone from my sister so my husband's like, babe, 0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:08.440 Like I could really see a difference. So I have 0:41:08.560 --> 0:41:10.680 to say I was a little on the fence about 0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:12.359 a divisil line because I'm like, is it gonna be weird? 0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:14.560 Is it going to feel weird? Am I going to 0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:17.200 lose my you know, my trades. I'm pretty careful with 0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:21.120 them that I haven't thus far. Are they gonna be uncomfortable? 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:23.279 And the first couple of days it's weird, but then 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:25.200 you get used to them. But I have to say 0:41:25.280 --> 0:41:28.439 I like them because I had braces as a kid, 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:31.640 which we're not all that comfortable, and I find this 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:34.680 to be like a really light lift. And so yeah, 0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:36.760 I feel like in Biline, if you're listening, you should 0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:39.040 sponsor the podcast because. 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:40.600 How else does it cost? 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:43.440 Oh? 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:46.480 Well, no, because I mean, because it's considered cosmetic, even 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:48.040 though Superman has really great insurance. 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:49.480 They're like, girl, you tried it, you want to have 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:49.920 straight sea. 0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:54.080 So these were about so I think it was about 0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:57.319 forty eight hundred, but I got like some extra No, no, 0:41:57.400 --> 0:41:59.840 it was no, I think it was fifty two hundred, 0:41:59.880 --> 0:42:04.520 but but I opted to have appointments they call them. 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:07.120 I forget that you can choose to have your appointments 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:11.040 during low traffic times, like which is like after a 0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:12.759 certain time in the morning or before a certain time 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.200 in the evening. And if you do that, they like 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:17.640 they took money off. And then I also chose to 0:42:17.680 --> 0:42:19.600 pay in full. So I think it was supposed to 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:22.239 be fifty two hundred, but I ended up paying like, 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:24.600 I want to say, forty eight hundred with them with 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:27.759 the discounts that I that I used, and so yeah, 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:29.520 so it wasn't And when I asked my other friends 0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:31.040 who you know, also had I have a bunch of 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.160 friends who had in visiline, and they were like, yeah, 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:35.439 that it was about the five thousand dollars range for them. 0:42:35.520 --> 0:42:37.400 So I feel like I'm writing in alignment with what 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:41.120 everybody else kind of paid. But to me, it's worth 0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:42.719 it because you figure for a year and a half 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:43.960 five thousand dollars, divide to. 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:47.080 Buy what is that twelve eighteen months? 0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:52.399 I feel like I can justify any purchase, don't. Yeah, 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:54.239 if you just take that and you think about this 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:56.760 and then divide that by three, then really you're saving 0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:58.360 money for really. 0:42:58.200 --> 0:42:59.520 Actually used to be paying them. 0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:00.399 I am. 0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:04.120 Yeah, I really like that. 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:07.759 Yeah, my little brown boosts even though it's not. 0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:09.000 Brown, but it is a boost. 0:43:09.760 --> 0:43:12.640 My guilty pleasure is I still buy laser hair removal 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:15.799 groupons like all the time, because once you do laser 0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:18.400 Haro Movis, You're like, I'm never gonna not I'm just like, 0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:19.920 I'm just like not gonna shave anymore. 0:43:19.920 --> 0:43:20.400 It sucks. 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:23.520 And what's funny is like on Groupon, you know, you 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:25.600 buy a six pack of laser hair removal and it's 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:27.960 only for new customers. So I've literally thank god I 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:29.800 live in New York because there is a like a 0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:33.719 skin care spa on every street corner. So I've just 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:35.400 been bopping around the city. I think I've been to 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:38.080 at least different, like eight different places over the years, 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:40.040 and I just do it once a year and it's 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:41.799 like one hundred bucks. And that's my little you know, 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:45.680 my little beauty, my little beauty splurge. So if you 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:47.040 guys want to, I mean, I don't feel like you 0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:49.440 should ever pay full price. That's the one thing groupon 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:52.240 is still relevant for for me is like the healthy, 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:54.240 like the beauty stuff, spa stuff. 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:57.720 But yes, yes you should never pay I mean spot. 0:43:57.760 --> 0:44:00.080 You can find so many awesome spots on goupon. So 0:44:00.080 --> 0:44:02.080 for a laser hair moval is it for like the year? 0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:03.040 Does it last that long? 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:05.200 It depends on where you're getting it. So some of 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:06.880 my hair, I mean, I won't go into too detail, 0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:08.920 but if it's hormone, I mean, we're all friends here, 0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:11.200 we're all women here, right, so some of your hair growth, 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:14.400 it's hormonal and she and your hormones do whatever the 0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:16.960 hell they want, whenever the hell they want. So if 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:18.960 it's hormonal, it's tougher. You have to kind of do 0:44:19.080 --> 0:44:23.000 maintenance so like once every other year. Everyone's different, so 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:25.920 there's not like one perfect way. But if it was 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:28.680 something you know, not really usually linked to hormones, like 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:31.800 leg hair or like underarm hair, then you could probably 0:44:31.840 --> 0:44:35.000 do that, you know, once and be okay. But everybody's 0:44:35.080 --> 0:44:37.960 body is different. But because of how cheap group on 0:44:38.040 --> 0:44:39.840 makes it, like I get treat I get like a 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:41.799 six pack for a hundred bucks or you know, I 0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:44.040 even got a year supply for like two hundred bucks 0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:47.040 one time. And because it's so cheap, I don't mind, 0:44:47.680 --> 0:44:49.680 you know, paying for it again and again if I 0:44:49.680 --> 0:44:52.319 have to every once in a while. Before that, it 0:44:52.360 --> 0:44:54.160 was like, you know, you could spend hundreds of dollars 0:44:54.239 --> 0:44:56.920 for one session, but it's way more cheap. 0:44:57.160 --> 0:44:58.680 Yep, I have to say, you know, I have to. 0:44:58.880 --> 0:45:02.840 You know, my my African I don't know. 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:05.080 You know, I went to college with that. 0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:11.000 I don't go anywhere, right, It's not that I don't 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:13.120 go any here, but definitely not you know, nothing to 0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:13.880 write home about. 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:17.680 I mean, that's the European side of me. I guess 0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:23.080 I'll blame it on that line of hairy woman and 0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:25.799 my family. Shout out to group On. 0:45:26.080 --> 0:45:26.480 I love that. 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:28.080 Tiffany Hattish is there spokesperson. 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:31.319 Also, yes, have you ever if you have not got 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:34.880 a chance brown a bit your listeners, google Tiffany Hattish 0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:35.720 group on story. 0:45:36.040 --> 0:45:39.319 I think it's on. I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. No, no, 0:45:39.680 --> 0:45:43.800 who's the other guy. Yeah, Jimmy Fallon. You have to listen. 0:45:43.840 --> 0:45:45.640 It is so good when she tells her group On 0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:48.239 and Jada Pinkett story, you have to like. 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:50.200 It's just such a that's how she got the. 0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:52.239 To pay her. 0:45:52.760 --> 0:45:56.359 That was like free app free advertised, such a good 0:45:56.360 --> 0:45:57.880 story and like it'll have you laughing. 0:45:58.160 --> 0:45:59.399 And so you haven't listened to it. 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:03.560 Ye should definitely And also Black Jeopardy and SNL. I'm 0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:05.120 gonna send you. It's so funny. 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:07.120 Yeah, week I want to get. 0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:12.040 Anyway. Great, Well that's our show. 0:46:13.560 --> 0:46:16.160 Well now what's kind of well are you goodad one? 0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:28.760 All right, bye guys, bye, have a good week.