Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, we're back.
Speaker 2: We're black, We're brown. It's Tiffany.
Speaker 3: Guys, it's Mandy.
Speaker 1: This is kind of rando, but I think I'm going
Speaker 1: to for you know, Valentine's Day is coming up, and
Speaker 1: I secretly think like Superman told me he didn't care
Speaker 1: if I changed my last name. But I think he
Speaker 1: does care because I think I caught him on the phone, like,
Speaker 1: you know, not ear hustling, but ellel the walls are thin,
Speaker 1: and I think that like he because he was like, nah, babe,
Speaker 1: keep your name, you know, like I don't, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't care, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: But I think he does care.
Speaker 1: So I think for Valentine's Day, I'm going to surprise
Speaker 1: and be like I'm applying for a name change.
Speaker 4: Oh wow?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 3: Like is it a formal application like with Social Security?
Speaker 4: Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2: I don't even knows.
Speaker 1: There's just some like I was like, it's funny because
Speaker 1: it made me think of it, because I mean, not
Speaker 1: just you're hustling him.
Speaker 2: But there was this ad. They came up with my
Speaker 2: ig feed and a friend of mine used them. It's
Speaker 2: like this you.
Speaker 1: Pay like one hundred and fifty Bucks and like they
Speaker 1: take care of all the whatever paperwork and whatever for you.
Speaker 1: So I think I'm just going to do that because honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to figure out all these things.
Speaker 1: So but I'm gonna I'm going to keep it'll be
Speaker 1: a hyphenated name and then because I'll still professionally be
Speaker 1: Tiffany Eliche because I feel like it's too late to
Speaker 1: kind of change that now, you know, but at least
Speaker 1: I'll be like personally Tiffany Leche his last name, you.
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, how romantic. I changed my name on Facebook
Speaker 3: and I.
Speaker 2: Was like there you go, Oh did you did you
Speaker 2: take on his name? Like like.
Speaker 4: What do you mean?
Speaker 3: Like not really, I haven't contacted any government agencies, but
Speaker 3: I'll put it on some mail and sometimes I use
Speaker 3: a cell phone number and then put my name on
Speaker 3: it like Santos, you know, just so.
Speaker 2: What do you want? You know? And it's not even
Speaker 2: that I didn't want to change my last name.
Speaker 1: I'm just not gonna lie that. The thought of paperwork
Speaker 1: was like, oh God, did I have to get a
Speaker 1: new everything license?
Speaker 2: Past world? Who has the time?
Speaker 3: See, I don't think it's worth all that, But I
Speaker 3: think what matters more. Is like, so I think my
Speaker 3: husband does like appreciate it because during the house stuff,
Speaker 3: just to not confuse anybody working on the house, you know,
Speaker 3: I went with his last name for all of the
Speaker 3: you know, all the vendors and whatnot. But you know,
Speaker 3: when I was cutting those checks, that says my last
Speaker 3: name on it, and I think that's fine presenting as
Speaker 3: the last name is the thought.
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly too. And then also too, you know,
Speaker 1: we welcome a kid. I don't want to be the
Speaker 1: only one without.
Speaker 2: The last name up in the house.
Speaker 1: Like, hey, you know one of these one of these
Speaker 1: round round pigs doesn't fit with the square holes.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, did you catch the Grammys this weekend?
Speaker 3: See my girl Licia Keys doing an amazing job.
Speaker 2: I it was really good.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I was like at a conference speaking, so I
Speaker 1: never do you have to watch TV in the hotels?
Speaker 1: I never do, but anyway I didn't, but I heard
Speaker 1: it was actually really good.
Speaker 3: Of course I watched TV and hotels hotel rooms like.
Speaker 3: I never had cable for a long time, so whenever
Speaker 3: I was at a hotel, I was like, ooh, fixed
Speaker 3: a rupper, like I ever just watched HGTV for whatever, I.
Speaker 2: Never do because you know what it is. I am
Speaker 2: one of those. I'm like the old lady that can't
Speaker 2: figure out the remote. You know, look like your mom
Speaker 2: and your aunt was so usually I'm like soap back.
Speaker 1: She's like, oh my god, you as the press the
Speaker 1: green button, then the blue button, the up and down, the
Speaker 1: left and it right. I'm like, see, that's why I
Speaker 1: just call you because all these buttons it used.
Speaker 2: To be on back in my day.
Speaker 3: Well, the Grammys were really good. I mean they got
Speaker 3: I guess the big headline was that so many women
Speaker 3: performed and so many women also won awards. And last year,
Speaker 3: like someone high up in the Grammy's land had said
Speaker 3: that in response to not very many women being represented,
Speaker 3: was like, well they need to step up. So so
Speaker 3: it was nice to see so much girl go powa
Speaker 3: and like Michelle, it was kind of confusing. At the
Speaker 3: top of the show, they had Alicia's hosting and I
Speaker 3: love her, but then she had like five famous women
Speaker 3: come out and tell them like basically say what music
Speaker 3: meant to them, and that included Lady Gaga. Makes sense,
Speaker 3: she was a musician, and it was Jennifer Lopez and
Speaker 3: then Alisha who I'm forgetting someone. Michelle Obama was like
Speaker 3: the surprise guest. People lost their minds.
Speaker 4: But then Jada Pinkett.
Speaker 3: Was there one I was like she what why? But
Speaker 3: I mean, like we alla, but it seems one of
Speaker 3: these things does not belong. But yeah, it was cool,
Speaker 3: it was cool, and yeah it was just a really
Speaker 3: it was a fun night. I feel like Alicia made
Speaker 3: the show. I don't know if I would have watched
Speaker 3: if it hadn't been Alicia as the as the as
Speaker 3: the host. But yeah, cool. So what conference for you at?
Speaker 2: It's called the IF Conference. My new mentor.
Speaker 1: Then I tell you about my mentor, the one who
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned her, the one who owns the
Speaker 1: jewelry company like she's got. Her name is Jessica, Jessica Hoenagger.
Speaker 1: She owns this jury company called New well it's not
Speaker 1: just jewelry, but a company called Noonday and oh and
Speaker 1: d a y. I met her at this other conference
Speaker 1: and we were talking and I just happened to mention.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: She asked me what I was, what business I had,
Speaker 1: and I told her and she was telling me about
Speaker 1: her business and it's very similar in its I guess
Speaker 1: in its mission.
Speaker 2: But her mission is I mean as far as like
Speaker 2: wanting to help people.
Speaker 1: So her mission is that she goes around world and
Speaker 1: finds vulnerable populations of women and you know, and pays
Speaker 1: them to do whatever kind of like local artists and
Speaker 1: craft things and pays them well things that they do.
Speaker 1: And and then women here, it's kind of like almost
Speaker 1: like avon. Women here then can can sign up to
Speaker 1: be an ambassador to Noonday and then sell it. It
Speaker 1: started because she she was doing mission work in Rwanda
Speaker 1: and and you know, we all rid of the Rwanda
Speaker 1: genocide not too long ago, and it left a lot
Speaker 1: of kids without parents, and so there was a little
Speaker 1: boy she wanted to adopt.
Speaker 2: And then the recession hit.
Speaker 1: That recession, I tell you blessing and a curse, and
Speaker 1: so the money that she had set aside was basically
Speaker 1: gobbled up during the recession and so she didn't know
Speaker 1: what to do because she really wanted to adopt this
Speaker 1: little boy. And so what happened was some of the
Speaker 1: people that she kind of connected with in Miwanda said well,
Speaker 1: what if we, you know, donate some like crafts and
Speaker 1: things to you and then you can sell it and
Speaker 1: you know, get the money to pay for the adoption.
Speaker 1: So that's what she did. And then her friends were like, well,
Speaker 1: where'd you get this? I want to sell some stuff too.
Speaker 1: She's like, no, I'm just selling it, you know, just
Speaker 1: so I can you know, this is just a fundraiser
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: So I can go through with the adoption.
Speaker 1: But people just kept talking about because the stuff was
Speaker 1: really beautiful, and she thought, well, maybe this is gonna
Speaker 1: be a business. So she made it up to adopt
Speaker 1: her son and she started a business. And as we
Speaker 1: were talking, I'm like, this is beautiful because her thing
Speaker 1: is she really wants to to eradicate moder and day
Speaker 1: slavery because so many it's largely women that she gets
Speaker 1: the crafts from, and so many of them, you know,
Speaker 1: are forced to work in brothels or sex trade or
Speaker 1: just dangerous situations, and they them being able to create
Speaker 1: these crafts already like women. I bought this bracelet from
Speaker 1: a certain collection called the Storyline Collection, and all of
Speaker 1: the women who made those bracelets, they were from this
Speaker 1: brothel in South America, and already over ten of those
Speaker 1: women have been able to leave the Brahmafel and just
Speaker 1: do this full time. And so it's just dope to
Speaker 1: be able to wear something that's beautiful but also know
Speaker 1: it's something beautiful. And then she told me that her
Speaker 1: business is the fastest growing direct to market jewelry business
Speaker 1: in the world and.
Speaker 2: She's won all these awards.
Speaker 1: After I came home and I googled her and they
Speaker 1: crossed over the twenty million dollar mark and an annual
Speaker 1: gross revenue, and I'm like, what, So, here's somebody who
Speaker 1: was doing good work, having good people, but making amazing money.
Speaker 2: And so I was like, you're my new mentor, because that's.
Speaker 3: What's called one of the business.
Speaker 2: And we should have her on noon and oh and noonday.
Speaker 1: She's just such a good person, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I meet someone and you're like, she's just such a
Speaker 1: really kind and good person who really cares about the world.
Speaker 2: But still such a boss.
Speaker 1: I told her, like looking at her as like what
Speaker 1: I hope to be in like ten years, like this
Speaker 1: big boss that still has maintained like your integrity and
Speaker 1: like really wanting to help people and keeping that first.
Speaker 1: And so she asked me that the conference last minute
Speaker 1: couldn't find I guess somebody for like a finance panel
Speaker 1: until she asked me to come.
Speaker 2: So I did. That's what I did last weekend.
Speaker 1: Everyone there, like her sunshine just has spread everywhere. And so,
Speaker 1: I mean my sister Tracy, who is the ultimate skeptic,
Speaker 1: is like she is like so dope, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I know, right, just like I don't know.
Speaker 2: She radiates goodness from within and God, hope, you know,
Speaker 2: hopefully this is weird.
Speaker 1: I mean I believe so because you know, just her
Speaker 1: energy from the inside. She just you know, just to
Speaker 1: see someone who is dedicated to helping make the world
Speaker 1: better but it's still running a super super successful business
Speaker 1: because you know, you worried that like at some point
Speaker 1: I start to grow, Am I going to have to
Speaker 1: sacrifice one for the other? And looking at Jessica and
Speaker 1: where she is, the answer is at least at the
Speaker 1: eight figure mark. No, you know, yeah, so, And like
Speaker 1: I said, it was, it was. It was nice IF conference.
Speaker 1: It was very Christian need the IF conference, and I
Speaker 1: believe in God, So it was I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1: I know you're from set down South.
Speaker 2: Where are we going with us? No?
Speaker 4: No, no, no.
Speaker 2: What I was gonna say is that because you know,
Speaker 2: in the Northeast.
Speaker 1: I'm used to, like because I went to like a
Speaker 1: majority like white church, so I'm used to churches you know,
Speaker 1: with white folks it's a certain kind of way, and
Speaker 1: the churches with black folks it's a certain kind of way,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: And so it was very interesting because.
Speaker 1: I don't know, i'd really experienced Christianity where it looked
Speaker 1: the same for black folks and white folks in the South,
Speaker 1: you know, like very like gregarious and you know. So
Speaker 1: I was like, it was an interesting experience to see,
Speaker 1: like it's almost like church in the South is Baptists
Speaker 1: like that kind of energy no matter what your racist,
Speaker 1: and I had not really you know, so that I.
Speaker 3: Think that's I think it depends on where you go.
Speaker 3: Like I was definitely at white churches that were very
Speaker 3: like hoity toity and you know, very like prim and proper.
Speaker 3: But I think, yeah, Baptist church in the South, you could.
Speaker 3: I mean there are country women, like country white women
Speaker 3: who are I don't know if you ever saw It's
Speaker 3: like a good example is like you ever seen that
Speaker 3: black Jeopardy skit on SNL. I'm just like laughing thinking
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 4: I had, You're gonna send you this one.
Speaker 3: Keenan Thompson plays Alex Trebek's character, and anyway, they always
Speaker 3: have like really funny categories like oh no, she didn't
Speaker 3: for four hundred dollars And anyway, they had one time
Speaker 3: Tom Tom Hanks played like a country white dude, and
Speaker 3: you know, he showed up as one of the contestants
Speaker 3: with like three other three other black contestants and they're like,
Speaker 3: who's this white guy. He's not gonna get any of
Speaker 3: these answers right, and he got everything right.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 3: But I'm telling you some country people, like when you
Speaker 3: get down to the Deep South, like country is country
Speaker 3: and white black country, and you know, that's that's a
Speaker 3: that's a storyline you don't usually ever see because it's
Speaker 3: always like the white you know, Southern people hate black
Speaker 3: Southern people. But sometimes it's like they are kin folks,
Speaker 3: and it's more like an economic it's it's more like
Speaker 3: a socioeconomic status, you know, connection than a racial one.
Speaker 3: So it's like they grow up in the same area
Speaker 3: at the same you know, level of income. And then anyway,
Speaker 3: I'm getting all in the in the weeds here.
Speaker 1: But but it was just very it was very interesting.
Speaker 1: I definitely was like, oh, oh, oh, we have a
Speaker 1: church church. Yeah, but it was interesting, and I say,
Speaker 1: everybody was super nice, and so I never even heard
Speaker 1: it's called the IF I IF conference.
Speaker 2: Mandy.
Speaker 1: It was like six thousand people in the audience and
Speaker 1: nearly a million people watching like over like streaming.
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 4: Wow?
Speaker 2: So enough about me. We have an exciting guest.
Speaker 1: Yes video, Mandy, you secured in super exciting guests and
Speaker 1: I can't wait to interview her.
Speaker 2: Let's jump in, Yeah, let's jump in.
Speaker 3: So let me tell you about our guests to we'll
Speaker 3: take a quick break and then we'll come back with
Speaker 3: our guests. But her name is Ada Harvey Wingfield. She's
Speaker 3: a professor of sociology at Washington University in Saint Louis.
Speaker 3: And what caught me it's not that I knew her beforehand,
Speaker 3: but I came across this article I actually mentioned as
Speaker 3: my Brown Break a few weeks ago in the Harvard
Speaker 3: Business Review and did a really good job kind of
Speaker 3: delving into the ways that black workers, especially in like
Speaker 3: corporate America, are often failed and it's not by any
Speaker 3: wrongdoing on their part, but by failings from the organizations themselves,
Speaker 3: and I think at a time where you're seeing you know, Starbucks,
Speaker 3: you know, and every other company rolling out diversity training
Speaker 3: when they have a really embarrassing public you know, incident happened,
Speaker 3: like a racial incident happened. I just feel like it
Speaker 3: was this article was kind of refreshing to kind of
Speaker 3: sit back and realize that there's you know, there's things
Speaker 3: that companies are doing wrong, but there's ways that they
Speaker 3: could do it a lot better to better support black workers.
Speaker 3: And a lot of what she writes about in this article,
Speaker 3: which I'll include in the show notes, just really struck
Speaker 3: a chord for me. I invited doctor Wingfield to join
Speaker 3: the show and she'll talk about her article and some
Speaker 3: of the ways she's found employers can actually hinder the
Speaker 3: progress of black workers in America. And she also has
Speaker 3: a new book coming out this June, which we'll talk
Speaker 3: about as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, come on into the let's.
Speaker 3: Okay, save it. We'll take a quick break and come
Speaker 3: back and talk to doctor Ada Harvey Wingfield.
Speaker 2: And we're back.
Speaker 1: So, if you are like me and Mandy Well mines
Speaker 1: are like Mandy, have you ever worked in an environment
Speaker 1: as a woman, especially as a woman of color, and
Speaker 1: you felt a little uncomfortable, You felt like your organization
Speaker 1: was not really doing right by you, or just just
Speaker 1: wasn't enough of you.
Speaker 2: Well, we had.
Speaker 1: And amazing guesterday, Doctor Adia Harvey Wingfield. She wrote this
Speaker 1: article for the Harvard Business Review because We're fancy, you know,
Speaker 1: called how organizations are failing Black workers and how do
Speaker 1: we do better?
Speaker 2: Welcome doctor Adea.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for letting me be a little creepy fan
Speaker 3: nerd and reach out to you out of the blue.
Speaker 3: Hi be on my.
Speaker 4: Podcast No Problem. Great.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things I loved about the story
Speaker 3: itself was that I feel like this is the kind
Speaker 3: of thing that we all know to be true, but
Speaker 3: we don't talk about it that much, Which is, you know,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of things working because I well, a
Speaker 3: lot of the times you just try and grin and
Speaker 3: barrett and pretend like there's nothing keep stopping you from success.
Speaker 3: You know, that's the way in America is just to
Speaker 3: pull yourself up by your bootstraps and succeed. But you know,
Speaker 3: you point out three different ways in this article that
Speaker 3: you have found in your research that you know employers
Speaker 3: are actually setting up black workers in some ways to fail.
Speaker 3: So I wondered if we can just kind of walk
Speaker 3: through some of the reasons that you outline in your
Speaker 3: in your article and then happy to talk more about
Speaker 3: the research that you've done into this issue.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, I'm happy to.
Speaker 5: So the article is a kind of summary or are
Speaker 5: pulling together of a lot of studies, Some are my
Speaker 5: own and some are ones that colleagues have done to
Speaker 5: make exactly the point that you just mentioned. There's definitely
Speaker 5: a disparity for black workers, particularly in professional jobs. But
Speaker 5: a lot of times these disparities are pronounced and made
Speaker 5: worse by things that organizations are doing. A lot of times,
Speaker 5: I think this is unwitting, and I think that it's
Speaker 5: useful for organizations to know, and particularly managers to know
Speaker 5: about the research that's out there about ways that they
Speaker 5: can create changes to make them places that are more
Speaker 5: suitable and welcoming.
Speaker 4: For black workers.
Speaker 5: So one of the things that I talk about in
Speaker 5: the article is that organizations can change and be more
Speaker 5: welcoming for black workers if they stop relying on social
Speaker 5: networks for hiring. And this has become really common in
Speaker 5: our current economy, again, particularly for professional jobs. Many managers
Speaker 5: rely on their networks, on people that they know to
Speaker 5: point them towards jobs, and on the face of it,
Speaker 5: that doesn't sound like a big deal, but the problem
Speaker 5: comes because most of our networks, particularly for white Americans,
Speaker 5: are pretty ex white.
Speaker 4: So when managers are networks are relying on.
Speaker 5: People that they know to point them towards jobs, especially
Speaker 5: professional ones, that can unwittingly end up reproducing racial segregation
Speaker 5: in the workplace.
Speaker 4: So that's an issue.
Speaker 5: A second thing that I point to is that organizations
Speaker 5: often have adopted a model where they don't focus as
Speaker 5: explicitly on racial and gender diversity anymore. And that might
Speaker 5: sound weird because we know now that many companies do
Speaker 5: talk about wanting to diversify, but the research shows when
Speaker 5: we dig into what that actually means, a lot of
Speaker 5: companies employ a really broad and.
Speaker 4: General definition of diversity.
Speaker 5: So that leaves them in a position where they can
Speaker 5: say that they're focusing on diversity, but the managers who
Speaker 5: are actually tasked with this focus on diversity very broadly defined,
Speaker 5: so it can include regional diversity, diversity of thought.
Speaker 4: Color.
Speaker 5: A good question color managers about this, and the thinking
Speaker 5: behind that is that if we have a lot of
Speaker 5: different viewpoints among a certain group, then we've got diversity
Speaker 5: of thought. So the problems with that are that diversity
Speaker 5: of thought may not be as diverse as you think.
Speaker 5: And that also doesn't take into consideration the way that
Speaker 5: systemic processes exclude racial minority men and women of all races.
Speaker 4: Right. But this is how you end up with statements
Speaker 4: like one.
Speaker 5: A few years ago where a vice president for I
Speaker 5: think it was Apple at the time made the remark
Speaker 5: that you can have twelve blond haired, blue eyed white
Speaker 5: men in a room and they'll still be diverse because
Speaker 5: they have different experiences that I'm.
Speaker 3: Too, yeah, point that out, I mean, yeah.
Speaker 5: Right, And so that's what I mean, that's what managers
Speaker 5: refer to when they talk about diversity of thought. That
Speaker 5: doesn't equip if they're approaching this diversity from that standpoint.
Speaker 4: That doesn't give them.
Speaker 5: The tools to think about strategies and programmatic management that
Speaker 5: they can do to address the ways that black people
Speaker 5: in particular often are marginalized and sidelined in organizations because
Speaker 5: if you're not actively trying to.
Speaker 4: Address these things, they don't get solved. So that's the
Speaker 4: second issue.
Speaker 5: The third issue that I mentioned in the article is
Speaker 5: that organizations often end up in situations where managers often
Speaker 5: implicitly but not always subtly, decide who they think best
Speaker 5: fits into certain organizational roles. And what happens for that
Speaker 5: is that when people are interested in applying for jobs
Speaker 5: or people people are interviewing for jobs, subtle biases make
Speaker 5: it seem as though black workers are suitable for lower
Speaker 5: status jobs but not really that acceptable for higher status,
Speaker 5: high ranking positions. So this is where we hear a
Speaker 5: lot of people talk about culture or fit.
Speaker 4: Right, there's something about this candidate. I just don't know
Speaker 4: if they fit. I can't put my finger on it,
Speaker 4: but they just don't seem quite right for this organization.
Speaker 5: And those types of strategies again work to the disadvantage
Speaker 5: of black workers in organizations, again often for professional jobs,
Speaker 5: because these are the types of positions where subtly and
Speaker 5: implicitly there's a message that black professionals are an oxymoron
Speaker 5: and that black workers don't fit in these types of
Speaker 5: high status jobs. So I wrote the piece to draw
Speaker 5: attention to these issues and to make the point that
Speaker 5: not only do they exist, there also are strategies for
Speaker 5: change there are things that research has shown that organizations
Speaker 5: can do to try not to focus in those ways
Speaker 5: and not to rely on these patterns that we know
Speaker 5: from research are disadvantageous to black workers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are some of the positive ways employers can
Speaker 3: lift up and help black workers succeed, you know, once
Speaker 3: they're already in a position at a job.
Speaker 5: Right, great question. So, generally speaking, research does point to
Speaker 5: some solutions. You mentioned affinity groups in particular, there's some
Speaker 5: research that suggests that affinity groups can be useful for
Speaker 5: helping underrepresented.
Speaker 4: Workers feel a little bit.
Speaker 5: More socially supported in these types of environments. That's inconsistent
Speaker 5: across occupations. So, for example, a colleague of mine has
Speaker 5: studied women working in the geosciences industry and has shown
Speaker 5: that for women in that particular field, affinity groups don't necessarily.
Speaker 4: Have the same reward.
Speaker 5: But other research shows that for black workers in particular,
Speaker 5: affinity groups can be really helpful in helping to feel
Speaker 5: more of a sense of support and solidarity, especially in
Speaker 5: environments that are sometimes unwelcoming. Interestingly, although we hear a
Speaker 5: lot about diversity and diversity training, research has shown that
Speaker 5: diversity trainings in particular, are not really as helpful as
Speaker 5: we might think. And I have some colleagues who have
Speaker 5: shown that diversity trainings have not been shown to actually
Speaker 5: show any marked improvement in improving the numbers of underrepresented
Speaker 5: groups in high status positions and organizations.
Speaker 4: And my own.
Speaker 5: Research has actually shown that diversity trainings have some adverse
Speaker 5: consequences for black professionals. They can lead to emotional alienation,
Speaker 5: particularly in context where black workers feel as though their
Speaker 5: white colleagues are free to share their emotional responses, but
Speaker 5: that they, as black professionals, have to conceal or suppress
Speaker 5: their own responses to racist things that their colleagues might
Speaker 5: end up saying in those settings. So diversity trainings themselves,
Speaker 5: while still fairly.
Speaker 4: Widespread, are not really that effective.
Speaker 5: Research does show, however, that when organizations actually commit to
Speaker 5: establishing explicit measures and tasking someone with response stability for
Speaker 5: creating more racial diversity, then that actually is where we
Speaker 5: see improvement. So, in other words, if organizations have the
Speaker 5: resources and offer the support to a manager and make
Speaker 5: it clear to that manager that your job is contingent
Speaker 5: on getting this done, perhaps unsurprisingly.
Speaker 4: People react Accordingly. People don't want to lose their jobs.
Speaker 5: So when organizations give managers this institutional support, when they
Speaker 5: give them the resources, and when they make it clear
Speaker 5: that the focus has to be not on diversity of thought,
Speaker 5: not on diversity of region, not on diversity of opinion,
Speaker 5: but that they want to actually see changes in terms
Speaker 5: of racial and gender.
Speaker 4: And ethnic diversity. That's when we actually do see the
Speaker 4: needle move.
Speaker 3: When you're at a higher status in your organization and
Speaker 3: you're a person of color, you're like, you're more likely
Speaker 3: to have more influence versus someone who's in a lower
Speaker 3: ranking position who's trying to point out or maybe too
Speaker 3: afraid to point out, hey, we could be doing a
Speaker 3: better job recruiting or you know, supporting people.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: That actually was one of the findings that came out
Speaker 5: of my book project. I don't know if we want
Speaker 5: to talk about that already, but I'm happy to if.
Speaker 3: That's for the book. What's the book called.
Speaker 5: It's called Flatlining, Race, Work and Healthcare in the New Economy.
Speaker 5: It's out this summer, right out this summer. It should
Speaker 5: be out this late June, early July, so coming out
Speaker 5: pretty soon.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that was one of the.
Speaker 5: Interesting findings that came out of my book that when
Speaker 5: we talk about how workers try to make changes in organizations,
Speaker 5: what I found from studying healthcare workers, doctors, nurses, physician assistants,
Speaker 5: and technicians is that how workers try to make changes
Speaker 5: depends on where they're situated in the organization, and that
Speaker 5: for doctors, because they had a lot of status, and
Speaker 5: because they had a lot of relatively speaking, a lot
Speaker 5: of power and an ability to make changes, they were
Speaker 5: more likely to try to address the structural procedures that
Speaker 5: lead to black black workers being underrepresented.
Speaker 4: In the medical profession.
Speaker 5: That's not as easy for say, technicians, who don't occupy
Speaker 5: the same structural position and don't necessarily have the same
Speaker 5: ability to request and try to institute far reaching change. Now,
Speaker 5: one additional thing I'll say, though, is that when we
Speaker 5: talk about workers who are at different levels and the
Speaker 5: occupational strata, it's important to be mindful that just bringing
Speaker 5: in one person or even two people.
Speaker 4: Usually is not really an effective solution.
Speaker 5: There's a recent report about this that came out from
Speaker 5: mckensey and lean in where they refer to people who
Speaker 5: are that underrepresented as onlies, and what they show is
Speaker 5: that people who are onlies deal with a lot more harassment,
Speaker 5: they think about quitting a lot more. They feel a
Speaker 5: lot more alienated and isolated. This is a problem that
Speaker 5: some organizations still make this thinking that, well, we can
Speaker 5: hire one or we can hire two, and we've done
Speaker 5: our job now. And like you just said, Mandy, the
Speaker 5: thinking then becomes, now that we've got one, we can
Speaker 5: tap them to do a lot of the diversity work,
Speaker 5: or we'll put them on this committee where they'll.
Speaker 4: Just solve all of our problems.
Speaker 5: But that's not really an effective strategy, and the research
Speaker 5: has shown that it's not effective because one person usually
Speaker 5: isn't equipped to make the sort of systemic change necessary
Speaker 5: for organizations to really be restructured to be more viable
Speaker 5: for all people.
Speaker 3: If you are the only Sometimes it feels like you
Speaker 3: put internal if you put pressure on yourself to do
Speaker 3: things that aren't necessarily asked of you. But that stress that'll, that'll, that'll,
Speaker 3: you know, stress you out, Like I need to be helping.
Speaker 3: I am in a position where I should be helping
Speaker 3: and I need to do more, but it's not always
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel like you really can make an impact.
Speaker 3: And I think that maybe a bit of you know
Speaker 3: why some people, if you're the only one in your job,
Speaker 3: think about leaving as you do feel kind of like
Speaker 3: powerless to change it. But you see the problem.
Speaker 1: So doctor ly, I just find this your work and
Speaker 1: your research to be really interesting. So I have a unique,
Speaker 1: I guess perspective because I so I run a company,
Speaker 1: and I would say eighty five to ninety percent of
Speaker 1: the women that work with us or the people that
Speaker 1: work with us are women, and of those women, almost
Speaker 1: all of them, not even almost all of them, all
Speaker 1: of them are women of color. And so it created
Speaker 1: like an environment like no other. So I never worked
Speaker 1: in corporate America before I started my business.
Speaker 2: I was a school.
Speaker 1: Teacher, so I didn't it's hard for me to track
Speaker 1: the difference. But it's like so many of the women
Speaker 1: that come to me and work with me.
Speaker 2: Had such traumatic experiences in corporate America.
Speaker 1: I was just talking to my COEO and she was like,
Speaker 1: she's having a hard time sometimes adjusting too that she
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be afraid to admit that she doesn't
Speaker 1: know how to do something, or like afraid when you
Speaker 1: know she needs a little more time, or just like
Speaker 1: no one's taking credit for the work that she did,
Speaker 1: and it's just been such an adjustment and just so
Speaker 1: interesting to see like kind of like this trauma that
Speaker 1: these women are bringing with them and from some of
Speaker 1: the corporate not everyone, but some of them, some of
Speaker 1: the corporate guess experiences that they've had, and to work
Speaker 1: in a company where you know that that's not the issue.
Speaker 2: I mean, not that we don't have other issues, but
Speaker 2: you are surrounded by.
Speaker 1: Women of color, and we help women of color, you know,
Speaker 1: and the women of color are in positions of power,
Speaker 1: and a woman of color owns the business, you know.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, I mean, unfortunately that doesn't surprise me what
Speaker 5: you're saying. I wish that it did, but it's so
Speaker 5: consistent with what we know from from the research.
Speaker 4: And another additional point.
Speaker 5: That I would just add is that the challenges of
Speaker 5: being that only one and in the minority.
Speaker 4: Not only are a problem for those.
Speaker 5: Two are experiencing it, but they It sends a very
Speaker 5: particular message to others as well, and I think in
Speaker 5: a weird way, it reinforces this idea that people of color,
Speaker 5: black people in particular, don't belong right, because it takes
Speaker 5: me back to this idea of tokenism that people who.
Speaker 4: Are the only one or the only one.
Speaker 5: Of a particular underrepresented group become representative of that entire group,
Speaker 5: and usually adverse ways. They are in a position where
Speaker 5: if they make if they have a success, then the
Speaker 5: success is seen as unusual for someone of that group.
Speaker 5: If they make a mistake, the mistake is seen as
Speaker 5: an example of why organizations don't hire people who are
Speaker 5: members of that group. So for the Black women that
Speaker 5: you're describing who are coming from corporate America, chances are,
Speaker 5: based on the numbers and the statistics that we know,
Speaker 5: they've probably been very underrepresented, and they've probably been experiencing
Speaker 5: a great deal of this phenomenon of tokenism. They become
Speaker 5: seen as people who stand out, who are different, who
Speaker 5: don't blend in, who don't fit with the majority of
Speaker 5: the group, people whose mistakes are then used to justify
Speaker 5: why we don't hire black women for these types of jobs,
Speaker 5: and people whose successes then conversely don't become viewed as
Speaker 5: a reason why we should hire more Black women for
Speaker 5: these types of jobs, but become an example of unusually,
Speaker 5: become an example of an unusual outcome rather than something
Speaker 5: that's representative and we know from virtually all the research
Speaker 5: out there that this just takes an a more toll.
Speaker 5: It takes an emotional toll, it takes a social toll,
Speaker 5: it takes a psychological toll, it takes an economic toll,
Speaker 5: because these have consequences for how workers are able to advance,
Speaker 5: how they are paid with their wages are and for
Speaker 5: keeping other workers out of these positions where there could
Speaker 5: be collective power and number that could try to change
Speaker 5: these structures.
Speaker 3: Yeah, can we talk a little bit about how it's
Speaker 3: it shouldn't all the onus shouldn't always be on black
Speaker 3: workers to fix problems at diversity. And like, one of
Speaker 3: the things that I've respected about some of the leaders
Speaker 3: I've worked with over the years is there's often, you know,
Speaker 3: white managers or white executives who will acknowledge it's not
Speaker 3: just a black people or a minority problem. It's a
Speaker 3: universal problem for all of us to fix as a team.
Speaker 3: So even if you're not a person of color, you
Speaker 3: should be making diversity a priority when you're recruiting or
Speaker 3: you know, in the way that you're writing. You know,
Speaker 3: for me, it's all about in journalism, it's often even
Speaker 3: journalists are guilty of writing to a specific audience or
Speaker 3: assuming things about black people in their story, and it's
Speaker 3: up to you know, editors, even if they're not black
Speaker 3: or a person of color, to call out those types
Speaker 3: of things. And yeah, it's I and you know the
Speaker 3: way that you're kind of seeing some managers step up
Speaker 3: and take on their responsibility. That's like the only way
Speaker 3: I feel like there can be change unless, you know,
Speaker 3: unless organizations are willing to just you know, immediately even
Speaker 3: out the like level of the playing field and hire
Speaker 3: a bunch of people of color. It's got to be
Speaker 3: that way, Like people who aren't minorities have to stand up.
Speaker 5: No, absolutely, I mean, this is one of the points
Speaker 5: that I make.
Speaker 2: In my book.
Speaker 5: The focus of the book is on how economic changes
Speaker 5: are having an impact on black professionals, and like I said,
Speaker 5: I focus specifically on workers in the healthcare industry. And
Speaker 5: one of the things that I find is that these
Speaker 5: economic changes are having an impact on the way these
Speaker 5: workers encounter racism. But that also is structured again by
Speaker 5: where they fall in the organizational hierarchy.
Speaker 4: But these workers are also trying to change.
Speaker 5: The organizational structures that they inhabit different ways that also
Speaker 5: depend on the jobs that they have.
Speaker 4: But the point that I really try to.
Speaker 5: Drive home and the conclusion, is that a big part
Speaker 5: of the problem is that these workers are doing so
Speaker 5: much labor without any real organizational support, and in a
Speaker 5: lot of cases they have the perspective and the feeling,
Speaker 5: sometimes explicitly sometimes implicitly that organizations are actually relying on
Speaker 5: them to do this work without any support. In other words,
Speaker 5: they know that the senses that managers and organizations know
Speaker 5: that for black workers, it's very important to try to
Speaker 5: create more equitability, it's important to try to do this
Speaker 5: diversity work, so the senses that companies and managers just
Speaker 5: let them do it, but that this doesn't also overlap
Speaker 5: with or lead them to getting any sort of institutional
Speaker 5: support for.
Speaker 4: The work that they're doing. And to me, that's the
Speaker 4: biggest problem.
Speaker 5: It's not necessarily an issue that you have black workers
Speaker 5: who are doing a lot of labor to try to
Speaker 5: change companies and to make them more relatable and more accessible.
Speaker 5: But you can't ask people to do this work on
Speaker 5: top of the things that are actually part of their
Speaker 5: real job descriptions and not compensate them for it, or
Speaker 5: not recognize that they're doing it, or worst case scenario,
Speaker 5: penalize them for the fact that they're doing all of
Speaker 5: this extra work that takes.
Speaker 4: Away from the jobs that they were hired to.
Speaker 5: Do, and then end up firing them or not promoting
Speaker 5: them because they've been doing all of this extra labor.
Speaker 4: But I think that's the situation.
Speaker 5: That we're in right now with so many organizations, that
Speaker 5: there's just the expectation that organizations want to meet their
Speaker 5: bottom line, they want to make their money, they want
Speaker 5: to say that diversity is important, so they bring in
Speaker 5: one or two black people in certain jobs.
Speaker 4: But then the implicit expectation becomes.
Speaker 5: Now that you're here, solve our problems, fix things up,
Speaker 5: make it better, and we'll just allow you to do that,
Speaker 5: and we'll allow that to become.
Speaker 4: An additional part of your work. But what we're not
Speaker 4: going to.
Speaker 5: Do is take these responsibilities on ourselves. What we're not
Speaker 5: going to do is tie your compensation to the fact
Speaker 5: that you're doing this extra work. What we're not going
Speaker 5: to do is offer you any additional recognition. I don't
Speaker 5: know if either of you watch Insecure, but it kind
Speaker 5: of reminds me of the scene at the end of
Speaker 5: I think season two when Molly the lawyer, the character
Speaker 5: who's a lawyer, basically was trying to angle for more money,
Speaker 5: and her job offered her the certificate of appreciation, told
Speaker 5: her they will put it on the web page.
Speaker 2: Right, what is that?
Speaker 4: That's crazy, that's that's not a pay raise, that's empty recognition.
Speaker 4: And I think that was a key part of what
Speaker 4: they were.
Speaker 5: Trying to communicate in that episode, that this is all
Speaker 5: too often what happens to black workers in these organizational settings.
Speaker 5: And it's a little bit different because Molly wasn't necessarily
Speaker 5: going out of her way, or they didn't show Molly
Speaker 5: necessarily going out of her way to do a whole
Speaker 5: bunch of work to try to change the organization. But
Speaker 5: they certainly had that episode in the first season when
Speaker 5: they wanted her to talk to the other younger black
Speaker 5: woman attorney and help her to fit in.
Speaker 4: So again.
Speaker 5: One so again, you're still having her do this extra work,
Speaker 5: you're not compensating her for it, and you're offering her
Speaker 5: a certificate that goes on the website, which is not
Speaker 5: what she requested and does not add up to equal pay.
Speaker 5: It's a fictional show, I get that, but I felt
Speaker 5: that that was very reflective of a lot of black people,
Speaker 5: right exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: It was very reflective of what a lot of.
Speaker 5: Black women encounter in these types of corporate settings because
Speaker 5: organizations simply in many cases are not making the moves
Speaker 5: to spread this work around more broadly and more widely.
Speaker 5: And I think that goes to the point that Tiffany,
Speaker 5: I think you were just making and I think Mandy
Speaker 5: you were saying this too. If this doesn't become something
Speaker 5: that becomes universally shared and widely seen as the organization's job,
Speaker 5: it falls to black workers in ways that end up
Speaker 5: maintaining inequality because they're still doing more work and they're
Speaker 5: not getting compensated for that work.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: One of the things you talk about too, And you know,
Speaker 3: something that I found is like, sometimes when you're the
Speaker 3: only one when things are happening that impact your community,
Speaker 3: like the past brutal few years in terms of just
Speaker 3: unarmed people of color being killed by police officers, for example,
Speaker 3: or everything happening in the White House. You know, right now,
Speaker 3: it's nice to turn to someone that it works because
Speaker 3: we spend so much time at our office, you know,
Speaker 3: for those of us in the ninety five world with
Speaker 3: your colleagues, and it's nice to turn around and feel
Speaker 3: like someone understands that there's things happening in the bigger
Speaker 3: world that could impact you during your work day. And
Speaker 3: what have you found in terms of like workplaces that
Speaker 3: are going out of their way to open up a
Speaker 3: safe space. I hate to use that, like really cliche term,
Speaker 3: but in safe space for colleagues to just like talk
Speaker 3: about what's happening in the world that could be impacting
Speaker 3: them if it has nothing to do with work, but
Speaker 3: could be impacting them because of their race, or their
Speaker 3: ethnicity or their creed.
Speaker 4: Sure. Sure.
Speaker 5: One of the most interesting examples that I think of this,
Speaker 5: that I think is happening right now is with Price
Speaker 5: Waterhouse Cooper. I believe they are still doing this initiative
Speaker 5: that's called the Color Brave, which I believe is supposed
Speaker 5: to be a contrast to being color blind. And I
Speaker 5: know that this got started by the CEO after a
Speaker 5: spate of highly publicized police shootings of black men. I
Speaker 5: believe this would have been maybe twenty fifteen or so,
Speaker 5: but it was the year that Alton Sterling was killed
Speaker 5: and then within twenty four hours Filando Castile was killed.
Speaker 5: Both were killed by police.
Speaker 4: Neither of them. Well, I believe in Alton Sterlin's case,
Speaker 4: he was not armed.
Speaker 5: In Fialando Castile's case, as we know, he was a
Speaker 5: registered licensed gun owner who was still shot by police
Speaker 5: despite not breaking any laws. So I believe my understanding
Speaker 5: was that the CEO of Price Waterhouse Cooper came to
Speaker 5: this recognition similarly to what you just described, that you
Speaker 5: can't in this day and age, have a diverse workforce
Speaker 5: but act as though that diversity doesn't have implications for
Speaker 5: how workers are dealing with and interacting with each other
Speaker 5: and coping with things that are happening in their lives.
Speaker 4: And we see some recognition of this.
Speaker 5: I think when we talk about the ways that companies
Speaker 5: need to be more attuned to work family policy and
Speaker 5: work life balance to use another kind of cliche phrase, right,
Speaker 5: But when organizations talk about this in most cases, I
Speaker 5: think they're referring to gendered issues that we want to
Speaker 5: be mindful of how workers have families, and to think
Speaker 5: about how we can institute flexible work hours and institute
Speaker 5: policies that allow people to balance their life outside of
Speaker 5: home with their life at home. They're excuse me, their
Speaker 5: life outside of work with their life at work. I
Speaker 5: think that it's necessary if we're going to really equip
Speaker 5: our workforces for the twenty first century, which is going
Speaker 5: to be a lot more multiracial, a lot more demographically diverse,
Speaker 5: we've got to.
Speaker 4: Do the same thing when it comes to race.
Speaker 5: We have to acknowledge that we live in a racially
Speaker 5: stratified society that has meaning and that has consequences for
Speaker 5: black workers, and that we can't pretend that work life
Speaker 5: balance means that for black workers, being black somehow has
Speaker 5: no meaning or significance, or that that meaning or significance
Speaker 5: just drops away when you enter the office.
Speaker 4: That's not true. We know that's not true. That doesn't even.
Speaker 5: Make any sense to think that way, right, So, if
Speaker 5: organizations are really going to be more diverse in a
Speaker 5: way that meets the needs of their employees, things like
Speaker 5: this Color Brave initiative to me sound really intriguing and
Speaker 5: interesting because they do take into consideration the whole person,
Speaker 5: and they take into consideration the whole person in ways
Speaker 5: that acknowledges that if we're talking about black workers, part
Speaker 5: of that whole person means people who are coping with
Speaker 5: the consequences of ongoing racial inequality and that that's going
Speaker 5: to have an impact on them both at work and
Speaker 5: outside of work.
Speaker 3: Well, doctor Wingfield, thank you so much for joining bran Ambition.
Speaker 3: You guys can check out her book coming out this
Speaker 3: June twenty nineteen called Flatlining Race, Work, and Healthcare in
Speaker 3: the New Economy.
Speaker 4: That's right, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That was an awesome, awesome interview. But
Speaker 2: now it's time for booster to break for all my family.
Speaker 2: Will you boost? Will you break? What will you do? Mane?
Speaker 4: Oh my god?
Speaker 1: That was so good and I didn't even plan it freestyling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Honestly, I don't know where these gifts come from.
Speaker 2: So I just be a jingle writer.
Speaker 3: God just us with your presence.
Speaker 2: No, So are you going to boost? Are you going
Speaker 2: to break?
Speaker 3: I want to do a boost. I want to do
Speaker 3: a boost because I can't wait for twenty twenty and
Speaker 3: the Democratic race is already just like the most girl
Speaker 3: power race in history. I think we have a record
Speaker 3: number of women putting their hat in the ring for president,
Speaker 3: which is really really awesome. So what you know, no
Speaker 3: matter who, probably what party you know you're affiliated with
Speaker 3: or whatever, I think is still really dope to see
Speaker 3: the impact of this feminine wave. You know, post Trump,
Speaker 3: post Trump America is female America. So I'm just I'm
Speaker 3: excited the odds are in our favor to have a
Speaker 3: woman president.
Speaker 1: Oh we shall see. But yeah, so that is a
Speaker 1: really good boost. My boost is a little less serious.
Speaker 2: Actually, I want to boost in Divisil line.
Speaker 1: They need to sponsor our show. So, Mandy, you saw
Speaker 1: me when we went to go take for Yahoo Finance,
Speaker 1: and you didn't even notice that I had my visil
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was actually shocked because I have noticed it
Speaker 3: in people before, especially people who accidentally eat with them
Speaker 3: in and then you really notice.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I could not tell. They look really good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not gonna tell.
Speaker 1: I guess they opened up with like, well, they gave
Speaker 1: me nine They call them like trades or whatever.
Speaker 2: So that's just the set of the uppers and lower.
Speaker 1: So I had nine weeks because every week you have
Speaker 1: to switch out the old ones to put in the
Speaker 1: new ones.
Speaker 2: So I'm at the end.
Speaker 1: The one I'm wearing now is my last one. I
Speaker 1: have to go this week to get my next set.
Speaker 1: But honestly, I'm seeing such a difference I because I
Speaker 1: have to have them for a year and a half,
Speaker 1: so I just assumed it was going to be really
Speaker 1: slow progress. But it looks like it's I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: lie like, I'm like.
Speaker 2: Wow, this has only been nine weeks.
Speaker 1: I can only imagine at the end of the year
Speaker 1: and a half there's been a tremendous change. And so
Speaker 1: I mean everyone from my sister so my husband's like, babe,
Speaker 1: Like I could really see a difference. So I have
Speaker 1: to say I was a little on the fence about
Speaker 1: a divisil line because I'm like, is it gonna be weird?
Speaker 1: Is it going to feel weird? Am I going to
Speaker 1: lose my you know, my trades. I'm pretty careful with
Speaker 1: them that I haven't thus far. Are they gonna be uncomfortable?
Speaker 1: And the first couple of days it's weird, but then
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Speaker 3: How else does it cost?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, no, because I mean, because it's considered cosmetic, even
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Speaker 2: They're like, girl, you tried it, you want to have
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Speaker 1: So these were about so I think it was about
Speaker 1: forty eight hundred, but I got like some extra No, no,
Speaker 1: it was no, I think it was fifty two hundred,
Speaker 1: but but I opted to have appointments they call them.
Speaker 1: I forget that you can choose to have your appointments
Speaker 1: during low traffic times, like which is like after a
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Speaker 1: in the evening. And if you do that, they like
Speaker 1: they took money off. And then I also chose to
Speaker 1: pay in full. So I think it was supposed to
Speaker 1: be fifty two hundred, but I ended up paying like,
Speaker 1: I want to say, forty eight hundred with them with
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Speaker 1: so it wasn't And when I asked my other friends
Speaker 1: who you know, also had I have a bunch of
Speaker 1: friends who had in visiline, and they were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that it was about the five thousand dollars range for them.
Speaker 1: So I feel like I'm writing in alignment with what
Speaker 1: everybody else kind of paid. But to me, it's worth
Speaker 1: it because you figure for a year and a half
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, divide to.
Speaker 2: Buy what is that twelve eighteen months?
Speaker 3: I feel like I can justify any purchase, don't. Yeah,
Speaker 3: if you just take that and you think about this
Speaker 3: and then divide that by three, then really you're saving
Speaker 3: money for really.
Speaker 2: Actually used to be paying them.
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my little brown boosts even though it's not.
Speaker 2: Brown, but it is a boost.
Speaker 3: My guilty pleasure is I still buy laser hair removal
Speaker 3: groupons like all the time, because once you do laser
Speaker 3: Haro Movis, You're like, I'm never gonna not I'm just like,
Speaker 3: I'm just like not gonna shave anymore.
Speaker 4: It sucks.
Speaker 3: And what's funny is like on Groupon, you know, you
Speaker 3: buy a six pack of laser hair removal and it's
Speaker 3: only for new customers. So I've literally thank god I
Speaker 3: live in New York because there is a like a
Speaker 3: skin care spa on every street corner. So I've just
Speaker 3: been bopping around the city. I think I've been to
Speaker 3: at least different, like eight different places over the years,
Speaker 3: and I just do it once a year and it's
Speaker 3: like one hundred bucks. And that's my little you know,
Speaker 3: my little beauty, my little beauty splurge. So if you
Speaker 3: guys want to, I mean, I don't feel like you
Speaker 3: should ever pay full price. That's the one thing groupon
Speaker 3: is still relevant for for me is like the healthy,
Speaker 3: like the beauty stuff, spa stuff.
Speaker 1: But yes, yes you should never pay I mean spot.
Speaker 1: You can find so many awesome spots on goupon. So
Speaker 1: for a laser hair moval is it for like the year?
Speaker 1: Does it last that long?
Speaker 3: It depends on where you're getting it. So some of
Speaker 3: my hair, I mean, I won't go into too detail,
Speaker 3: but if it's hormone, I mean, we're all friends here,
Speaker 3: we're all women here, right, so some of your hair growth,
Speaker 3: it's hormonal and she and your hormones do whatever the
Speaker 3: hell they want, whenever the hell they want. So if
Speaker 3: it's hormonal, it's tougher. You have to kind of do
Speaker 3: maintenance so like once every other year. Everyone's different, so
Speaker 3: there's not like one perfect way. But if it was
Speaker 3: something you know, not really usually linked to hormones, like
Speaker 3: leg hair or like underarm hair, then you could probably
Speaker 3: do that, you know, once and be okay. But everybody's
Speaker 3: body is different. But because of how cheap group on
Speaker 3: makes it, like I get treat I get like a
Speaker 3: six pack for a hundred bucks or you know, I
Speaker 3: even got a year supply for like two hundred bucks
Speaker 3: one time. And because it's so cheap, I don't mind,
Speaker 3: you know, paying for it again and again if I
Speaker 3: have to every once in a while. Before that, it
Speaker 3: was like, you know, you could spend hundreds of dollars
Speaker 3: for one session, but it's way more cheap.
Speaker 2: Yep, I have to say, you know, I have to.
Speaker 2: You know, my my African I don't know.
Speaker 3: You know, I went to college with that.
Speaker 1: I don't go anywhere, right, It's not that I don't
Speaker 1: go any here, but definitely not you know, nothing to
Speaker 1: write home about.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the European side of me. I guess
Speaker 3: I'll blame it on that line of hairy woman and
Speaker 3: my family. Shout out to group On.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 3: Tiffany Hattish is there spokesperson.
Speaker 1: Also, yes, have you ever if you have not got
Speaker 1: a chance brown a bit your listeners, google Tiffany Hattish
Speaker 1: group on story.
Speaker 2: I think it's on. I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. No, no,
Speaker 2: who's the other guy. Yeah, Jimmy Fallon. You have to listen.
Speaker 1: It is so good when she tells her group On
Speaker 1: and Jada Pinkett story, you have to like.
Speaker 2: It's just such a that's how she got the.
Speaker 4: To pay her.
Speaker 3: That was like free app free advertised, such a good
Speaker 3: story and like it'll have you laughing.
Speaker 2: And so you haven't listened to it.
Speaker 3: Ye should definitely And also Black Jeopardy and SNL. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna send you. It's so funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, week I want to get.
Speaker 3: Anyway. Great, Well that's our show.
Speaker 2: Well now what's kind of well are you goodad one?
Speaker 1: All right, bye guys, bye, have a good week.