Speaker 1: On the Bell cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, DC,
Speaker 1: what's up? Thanks for being here. I'm Caitlin, I'm Jamie.
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to the Backtel cast. Yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: so right at the top for listeners at home. We're
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And we are at an intimate
Speaker 1: gathering at Emissary and DC has everyone that wanted a
Speaker 1: nipple jello shot had one. They're making their way around.
Speaker 1: They're right typical man, they're right in front of them.
Speaker 1: Uh So, I mean, we've really to set the scene.
Speaker 1: We've got a spread, We've got jello shots of nipples,
Speaker 1: of various eyes is. We've got a lot of nipple
Speaker 1: representation in the jello shots. I'm going to pick up
Speaker 1: a particularly large one here. It's good. Uh And then
Speaker 1: if you guys need a drink at any point in
Speaker 1: the show, the Five Nips and the Free Bush are
Speaker 1: available at the bar. So thank you Emissary for making
Speaker 1: us these specialty cocktails. They're delicious, They're really really good.
Speaker 1: And thanks for having us. That will pass the Bechtel
Speaker 1: did what is It's hard at the live episodes because
Speaker 1: it's like they know what it's about, but we still
Speaker 1: have to say it. We have to housekeeping. So we
Speaker 1: we talk about the portrayal of women in movies, we
Speaker 1: use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point, which
Speaker 1: is a test developed by cartoonist and writer Alison Bechtel
Speaker 1: that requires any piece of media have two female identifying
Speaker 1: characters with names speak to each other about something other
Speaker 1: than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.
Speaker 1: You'd think it would be possible for every movie to
Speaker 1: do this, but if you were at our Nightmare Before
Speaker 1: Christmas episode just now, you'll know that Tim Burton can't
Speaker 1: do it. I cannot do it. Some people can. It's hard,
Speaker 1: it's not hard, but it's it's not hard. It's so easy.
Speaker 1: We have been talking for minutes. I haven't brought Tim Burton.
Speaker 1: And that's on that thing that I said I would
Speaker 1: never do. I did it. So we're talking about Miss
Speaker 1: Congeniality today. Yes, clap if you have seen Miss Congeniality. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and no shame, no judgment. Clap if you have not
Speaker 1: seen Miss Congeniality. One bartender in the bag, not bad.
Speaker 1: Everyone did their homework. Everyone. I love when everyone does
Speaker 1: their homework. It's very exciting. Yeah. Also, this is a
Speaker 1: modern classic and there's no excuse. So Miss Congeniality is
Speaker 1: spoiler alert. Oh has been one of my favorite movies. Really. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's so. As you might have noticed, we don't
Speaker 1: have a guest because this is this is just us, baby,
Speaker 1: It's an intimate gathering. So what's your history. I love
Speaker 1: this movie. I'm pretty sure I didn't see I was
Speaker 1: too young to see it in theaters brag, but I did.
Speaker 1: My My cousin Tammy is here and we have for
Speaker 1: sure watched this movie together nine million times. There are
Speaker 1: various vhs is of it circulating throughout the family and
Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, it was just like one of my
Speaker 1: Still the only form of self defense I know is
Speaker 1: saying from Miss Congeniality I like memorized. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is useful. I don't know if I could actually
Speaker 1: execute it, but yeah, whatever, solar up. No, I'm kidding,
Speaker 1: solar Plexus is hard. It's the gut. Tammy is a
Speaker 1: black belt also, Yeah, she's like a triple black belt.
Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to fight my cousin after the show.
Speaker 1: She'll she'll win. But yeah, no, it's It's always been
Speaker 1: one of my favorites. I think I first saw it
Speaker 1: either with my mom my cousins were both, but I
Speaker 1: watched it at least once a year. Wow, okay, I
Speaker 1: love it so much. Great. I haven't seen this movie much.
Speaker 1: Sorry I didn't grow but they probably only saw it
Speaker 1: for the first time a few years ago and uh
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I watched it. Here's why I watched it
Speaker 1: because I don't know if you know this or not,
Speaker 1: but I did get a master's degree in screen running
Speaker 1: from Boston University. I hate to bring it up, but
Speaker 1: I wrote a script with a similar ish premise. Um.
Speaker 1: My script was about a woman who takes improv classes
Speaker 1: so that she can learn how to go undercover as
Speaker 1: an FBI agent. Very cool story, I agree, So did
Speaker 1: not make it to the big don't know anyway, So
Speaker 1: that was like the script I was writing. And I
Speaker 1: watched this movie as research. Would have been in like
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen or something like that that I saw
Speaker 1: this for the first time. Okay, okay, So we came
Speaker 1: in at a very different points a late Miss Congeniality bloomer.
Speaker 1: It's okay, you got there, that's all that count. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's okay, something that I suspect will be polarizing, not
Speaker 1: as polarizing as dry scams web scams, but maybe close
Speaker 1: as Miss Congeniality was the first movie I saw Michael
Speaker 1: Caine in. Mm right, Caitlin first saw Michael Caine and Muppets,
Speaker 1: Christmas Carol. Yeah, lots and not have a feeling that
Speaker 1: maybe there's some Batman people and there is well I'm
Speaker 1: sure he's been in other movies. But that's so wait okay,
Speaker 1: so so clap, clap, your a little pause together. If
Speaker 1: Miss Congeniality was your first cane, okay, we got a few.
Speaker 1: If Muppets was your first cane, if Batman was your
Speaker 1: first cane, yeah, we're adults here, right. How about the movie?
Speaker 1: Is it Elfie from? This is a real thing that
Speaker 1: Michael Kine was in? Again, I have a master's degree.
Speaker 1: It was from like the seventies or something, so coming
Speaker 1: in with slightly different backgrounds, but so shall I do
Speaker 1: the recap? Let's do it. Okay, So Miss Congeniality we
Speaker 1: meet Gracie Heart. She's an FBI agent. She's a little
Speaker 1: rough around the edges, but when we meet her when
Speaker 1: she's a kid. For yes, she punches two boys in
Speaker 1: one scene. Great moment in cinema. It's great. I like
Speaker 1: that scene a lot because I don't know. I thought
Speaker 1: it was like, there there's a boy that is about
Speaker 1: to get beat up because he's being a quote unquote
Speaker 1: like sissy and like he sucks, and then Gracie comes
Speaker 1: to his rescue by punching out the bully. And then
Speaker 1: she approaches the boy she saved and she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: I think you're great. She has a little bit of
Speaker 1: a crush on him, and then he rejects her and
Speaker 1: it's like, now I look even stupider because I needed
Speaker 1: a girl to rescue me. And then she punches him out.
Speaker 1: I feel this is a very like realistic depiction of
Speaker 1: how a young boy would react in that situation. Definitely,
Speaker 1: and I wish that I could punch. I found that
Speaker 1: seemed very cathartic and good. My only problem with it
Speaker 1: is when he's like, you're a girl and she's like,
Speaker 1: well you're a girl, using girl as an insult. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But other than that yeah, perfect scene, no notes perfect.
Speaker 1: So then she we meet her as an adult and
Speaker 1: she's got a middle part. Guys, she's in bad shape.
Speaker 1: The movie would have you believe middle there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with them, but for some reason that is like code
Speaker 1: for like, yeah, she's got a middle part and she
Speaker 1: doesn't plug. So she is undercover with the FBI. She's
Speaker 1: a field agent, but you know, she's got frizzy hair,
Speaker 1: so she's not hot yet, and she and her crew
Speaker 1: are looking for a serial killer named the Citizen. The
Speaker 1: figure out that the Citizen is planning to target the
Speaker 1: Misunited States pageant, so they're like, hey, we better send
Speaker 1: someone undercover to like scope this out. Then there's a
Speaker 1: very sinister scene using hacker technology that is just hacker
Speaker 1: technology is often misapplied, and speaking on behalf of my community,
Speaker 1: I apologize where they do. They're looking for the right agent,
Speaker 1: which just means that they're looking at pictures of their
Speaker 1: co workers in bikinis, and everyone is like t he
Speaker 1: he we love this, and then oh what if we
Speaker 1: put our austin a bikini? And then oh wait, he's
Speaker 1: right behind me and we're and we're laughing, and we're
Speaker 1: laughing but we're troubled in the year. That's not good.
Speaker 1: We can unpack that scene at a moment. There's a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the agent that they end up selecting to go
Speaker 1: under cover to participate in the Miss United States pageants,
Speaker 1: Sandra Bullock, turns out she's hot and her colleague Matthews
Speaker 1: played by Benjamin Bratt, Oh my god, hot, terrible character,
Speaker 1: unbelievably handsome man. So he's leading this operation and he
Speaker 1: convinces her to do this whole thing. So they meet
Speaker 1: with Miss morning Side, Kathy morning Side, Candy Bergen, and
Speaker 1: Stan Fields are all buddy shot. The Chat that's what
Speaker 1: they call him. They call a shot. That's disgusting, okay,
Speaker 1: the shot they meet with the shot. Okay. So she
Speaker 1: enters the contest as Miss New Jersey and she gets
Speaker 1: teamed up with Victor Michael Caine. Great impression both of
Speaker 1: us because he's like a pageant coach, and he gives
Speaker 1: her this major makeover. They bring her to like a
Speaker 1: warehouse like they's so it's like an airplane hangar. Are
Speaker 1: you ever so ugly you need someone to rent a
Speaker 1: building to fix you? It's upsetting how much Princess Diaries
Speaker 1: they need a room for a couple hours. But Sandra Bullock,
Speaker 1: apparently Sandra Bullock in her middle part, are so suffering.
Speaker 1: The flags at half masted and they like locked down.
Speaker 1: I don't even know where they are. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: giant building and they needed it to turn Sandra look
Speaker 1: into a beautiful woman. Believable. So then she goes to
Speaker 1: the orientation. She meets miss Rhode Island. Oh god, we
Speaker 1: love her. So you know she's working on her things.
Speaker 1: She like it is a beauty queen. Now she does
Speaker 1: her talent. This this thing you the listeners at home,
Speaker 1: Jamie and I both just rubbed our fingers on our classes.
Speaker 1: Would be so confusing context alright, So and then they
Speaker 1: get some new evidence that the envelope from the Citizen
Speaker 1: was licked by a woman, which is like, what is this?
Speaker 1: DNA does that? We know she's a woman, but that's
Speaker 1: not that's not how that works. Well anyways, the movie
Speaker 1: has to continue, so right, So Kathy morning Side is
Speaker 1: mean to her, victors mean to her. She's like, I quit.
Speaker 1: But then Benjamin Brad's like, but look how hot I
Speaker 1: am And he's like She's like, okay, I'll stay. Then
Speaker 1: I get there like, oh, miss Rhode Island, she's a
Speaker 1: terrorist maybe because she's like Tita and they're like, she's
Speaker 1: she's just in Peta, like that's it. She's like for,
Speaker 1: I don't like for and they're like, well, clearly she's
Speaker 1: a killer. She's but in order to like try to
Speaker 1: coax some information out of her, she hangs out with
Speaker 1: the gals and gets closer to them, maybe even make
Speaker 1: some friends, and learns a little sounding about herself something.
Speaker 1: And then she learns that Miss morning Side is getting
Speaker 1: fired by we already knew the shot was getting fixed,
Speaker 1: we didn't know that Candy was getting dumped as well,
Speaker 1: and this is a game changer. Also, Candy Bergen has
Speaker 1: an unfuckable son who becomes relevant as the movie goes on. Yes, Frank,
Speaker 1: that sounds cruel, but he is dressed like a turtle repeatedly,
Speaker 1: and he's literally the turtle turtle guy. But then they
Speaker 1: catch the citizens are like, wait a minute, we we
Speaker 1: got him. There's no need to be here at the
Speaker 1: pageant anymore. But our friend Heart, she's got a hunch
Speaker 1: and she's like, no, I think we need to keep
Speaker 1: our eye on Miss morning Side, which is true because
Speaker 1: she ends up being so bitter that she got fired
Speaker 1: that and that's God's implied that she lost a pageant
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago and poisoned the winner so that
Speaker 1: she could claim the throne. She's I also don't understand
Speaker 1: was her plan to blow someone's head up? Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: that is exactly the plan. That's a bad plan because
Speaker 1: the crown is like a bomb, right, but it's like that,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just like, of all people, Miss
Speaker 1: Rhode Island, she's so pure well so, so it's time
Speaker 1: for the may and pageant and hearts like, I gotta
Speaker 1: do my talent, but the water glasses got drank, so
Speaker 1: then she has to do the sing scene thing she
Speaker 1: gets she kicks Benjamin Bratt's ass on stage, very satisfying.
Speaker 1: It's really cool. Yeah, and then she makes it into
Speaker 1: the top five and everything's exciting trigged, but we are
Speaker 1: still drilled. And then Mr Rhode Island wins, but hearts
Speaker 1: like she figures out that it's the crown that's the bomb,
Speaker 1: so she like flings herself at her and you know,
Speaker 1: rips off the crown. There's a whole scuffle. The chat
Speaker 1: is like the show must go on keeps singing its
Speaker 1: line roots where he's just saying the lyrics to the
Speaker 1: song five seconds after they've been song is great. It's
Speaker 1: also one of those classic scenes of like it's taking
Speaker 1: forever to detonate a bomb for no reason, like her
Speaker 1: Turtle Son's like I'm gonna do it. It's like normally
Speaker 1: fingers slipped, and then it falls down stair by stair,
Speaker 1: and then finally Candice Burgend is like, I'm gonna blow
Speaker 1: up Miss Rhode Island's head, but she fails. She fells heart,
Speaker 1: saves the day, and then at the end she gets
Speaker 1: voted believe it or not, Miss Congeniality, it's nice, which
Speaker 1: means that you didn't win, but you're nice, yeah, which
Speaker 1: is something that is achievable for people. Yes, Okay, so
Speaker 1: that's the movie. Good Night, No, I'm kidding. Um, So
Speaker 1: where should we start. Let's start with the relationship because
Speaker 1: that is like one of the things I don't like
Speaker 1: about the movie that I just really want to knock off.
Speaker 1: At the top, se can just sing this movie's praises,
Speaker 1: but the relationship in this movie sucks. Yeah, it's a bummer.
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's face and physique are wasted in this movie.
Speaker 1: But it's because and it's weird because it's like I
Speaker 1: think the movie sort of like it. It tries to
Speaker 1: paint them as equals, but in ways that just demonstrate
Speaker 1: their imbalance in the workplace even more. Where at the beginning, especially,
Speaker 1: he's treating her like one of the guys, and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: we like you know, we like funk with each other.
Speaker 1: We insult each other, but all of his insults are
Speaker 1: very pointedly misogynist about her body. He slaps her ass
Speaker 1: at one point, he makes comments about how he doesn't
Speaker 1: find her attractive all the time, and then the whole
Speaker 1: journey of this relationship is like he respects her after
Speaker 1: she gets a makeover and is just as good at
Speaker 1: her job as she ever was and is the same person,
Speaker 1: but now she has a hair straightener and he's in love.
Speaker 1: I hate it. Some of my favorite lines from him are,
Speaker 1: by the way, you look like hell really cute. I
Speaker 1: think McDonald, their male boss, is more feminine than you.
Speaker 1: I'd rather kiss him, so you know, he's a feminist
Speaker 1: icon to punch. It's a homophobic joke and a misogynist joke.
Speaker 1: Mr Bratt right, he is like he's sexist, he's homophobic.
Speaker 1: It's just like toxic masculinity all over the place. But
Speaker 1: he's the love interest l O L. It's weird. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's it's weird because it's like you do, I mean,
Speaker 1: especially the nice younger. I had like a deep affection
Speaker 1: for that character. But it's because there you can tell
Speaker 1: the reason she likes him. But her character, who were
Speaker 1: sort of led to believe calls people out, doesn't really
Speaker 1: call him out to the extent that he deserves to
Speaker 1: be called out right, because she calls out Michael Caine's
Speaker 1: character a lot. She's always like everyone, Yeah, she calls
Speaker 1: out these little boys at the beginning almost for yeah.
Speaker 1: So so that whole character in that relationship, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like it's a movie in two thousand. There's gonna
Speaker 1: be uh romance shoehorned in. But it's like there there
Speaker 1: were enough good elements of his character that it could
Speaker 1: have been a more level, fair relationship and there didn't
Speaker 1: need to be so many cast off Like most of
Speaker 1: the stuff in this movie that sucks is pretty fixable
Speaker 1: of Like, it's a lot of just cast off misogynists
Speaker 1: and homophobic jokes that don't need to be there. They
Speaker 1: don't really add anything, and by like, just don't do that.
Speaker 1: And it's weird because so this movie was written by
Speaker 1: two women and a guy, Katie Ford and Karen Lucas
Speaker 1: and Mark Lawrence. I was trying to do research on
Speaker 1: each of them. Couldn't find a ton on karenen Lucas.
Speaker 1: But Katie Ford is a queer woman, so you would
Speaker 1: think that there wouldn't be quite so much kind of
Speaker 1: casual homophobia in it. But then it was also two
Speaker 1: thousand so and the other end of that is there's
Speaker 1: more queer characters in this movie than in most movies
Speaker 1: of that time and still now where there's I mean
Speaker 1: at least two characters that have direct impact on the
Speaker 1: plot that identify as queer. And it's not like coding
Speaker 1: and all the bullshit were used to where Michael Caine's
Speaker 1: character identifies as queer. Wait see, I found he's like
Speaker 1: wex your pubes. It's all a character. I found him
Speaker 1: to be more coded that way than identifiably that way.
Speaker 1: But I might have missed something. Well. He implies several
Speaker 1: times that he's in relationships with men and and at
Speaker 1: one point plays it off as a homophobic joke where
Speaker 1: he's talking to someone he knows and he says about
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's character like he he's with me, and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: so to me that it's not an explicit statement, but
Speaker 1: that I don't know. That went a step further than
Speaker 1: coding to me, because usually like a coded character in
Speaker 1: my head is like playing to every trope and not
Speaker 1: acknowledging anything outside of a trope where he is acknowledging
Speaker 1: he is attracted to men and he's been in relationships
Speaker 1: with men. I feel like it's alluded to several times
Speaker 1: where that was just my read of it. There's a
Speaker 1: moment where he grasps Benjamin Bratt's shoulder and then he's like,
Speaker 1: what a pity that he can't that he can't stay
Speaker 1: and stop with that impression. And then at the end
Speaker 1: of the movie, Miss New York comes out to the
Speaker 1: world on stage and says that it's like, what is
Speaker 1: the line she has? Oh, it's she says, it's great, Oh,
Speaker 1: hang on, I got it here, and her girlfriend's in
Speaker 1: the crowd and she's like yes, and then we're like
Speaker 1: love winds and then she's dragged off stage. So it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so it's I just want to let all the lesbians
Speaker 1: out there. No. If I can make it into the
Speaker 1: top ten, so can you. And then she's like love you,
Speaker 1: Tina or something Tina's like, and then we're like yeah.
Speaker 1: But then immediately after that they cut to the TV station.
Speaker 1: It's weird. It's like you get a good moment and
Speaker 1: then it's sort of cast off in the next moment
Speaker 1: where the TV people are like, can we even say
Speaker 1: lesbian on television? And it's like no, no, no, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like that mostly worked for me because
Speaker 1: so like Miss New York says says that, and then
Speaker 1: like Gracie collapse and woos to show her support, and
Speaker 1: then William Shatner is like, stay tuned for our final
Speaker 1: five lesbians contestants. And then after that the guy behind
Speaker 1: the scenes is like can we even say And then
Speaker 1: there's a woman who's like, you got a problem with that?
Speaker 1: So to me, like the men are made to look
Speaker 1: like bumbling idiots who like can't hang, and then the
Speaker 1: women in that scene are all like kind of challenging
Speaker 1: the status quo. Well, I would even say that it's
Speaker 1: restricted to gender. I just think that in that scene,
Speaker 1: everyone whose side we're firmly on, which includes Victor, are
Speaker 1: pro miss New York basically coming out to the world
Speaker 1: on live TV, and so everyone whose corner we're in
Speaker 1: is cool with it and not shamy. And yeah, the
Speaker 1: guy who's like like he's made to look that way,
Speaker 1: the movie wants you to see him that way. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so I was okay with that. What didn't work for
Speaker 1: me so well was the scene where Victor tells, like
Speaker 1: a backstage hand, he's like, Benjamin Brett's is with me,
Speaker 1: and then he's like, I'm not with him with him
Speaker 1: because he is wildly insecure about his sexuality and he
Speaker 1: does not like gay people. But again, he is poised
Speaker 1: as the love interest in standard book kisses a homophobe.
Speaker 1: At the end of the movie, Sandy, there are still
Speaker 1: there are problems, and he was also in The blind Side,
Speaker 1: so she's got certainly some problematic things of her catalog.
Speaker 1: The way this movie handles queerness is kind of all
Speaker 1: over the place. But I don't know if for two
Speaker 1: thousand it acknowledges queerness in the way that most mainstream
Speaker 1: movies wouldn't give it. That. Yeah, So back to the
Speaker 1: conversation about the Benjamin Bratt character and he is in
Speaker 1: a pool and that's good. Uh, well, you see his nipples.
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, there's that whole scene where their heart
Speaker 1: and Matthews are wrestling. Whenever he's trying to convince her
Speaker 1: to like take this undercover role, there's moments where like
Speaker 1: she he's like, just do a few like button shipping exercises,
Speaker 1: tighten ess, slap or in the ass. He slaps her
Speaker 1: in the ass again. At the end of the scene.
Speaker 1: There's a moment where like she has his head right
Speaker 1: in her crotch and they're like doing this whole thing.
Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, I wonder if these characters have
Speaker 1: sexual tension, that that is a thing that whenever, like
Speaker 1: a woman is fighting a man in a movie, I
Speaker 1: feel like it always comes down to the head between
Speaker 1: the legs and it becomes this like sexual subtext of
Speaker 1: I know that's a legitimate move you can do, but
Speaker 1: must we every single time? And must we deliver a cute,
Speaker 1: little punchy line while we do it, like squeeze head
Speaker 1: of like you I was gonna say, you're cute, but
Speaker 1: whatever equip not you're cute that's not equip that's just
Speaker 1: a feeling. I feel like I feel like Black Widow
Speaker 1: does it all the time, and like the Avengers movies.
Speaker 1: It happens in the Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle Ever
Speaker 1: heard of it? Is there a fandom for that feeling,
Speaker 1: doesn't it? It's the guy who can find the nipple? Basically,
Speaker 1: any any movie where there is a like female action star,
Speaker 1: you can better believe that she is wrapping her pussy
Speaker 1: around his face and using it to slam him into
Speaker 1: the ground. He's like, Wow, she's powerful, and you're just
Speaker 1: like ick, yeah, that's gross. And of course that moment
Speaker 1: happens a lot, and usually in narratives where a woman
Speaker 1: who is like unusually strong or good at fighting is
Speaker 1: forced to prove that over and over and over, which
Speaker 1: this movie does a few times. Hey, i think it's
Speaker 1: about time for us to just take a little quick break.
Speaker 1: I'm tired. I'm tired news the way okay, transition a
Speaker 1: little bit to the way Gracie is treated by her
Speaker 1: co workers again is all over the place where they
Speaker 1: definitely know she's good and they do seem to respect her,
Speaker 1: and like the opening sequence in Like the Present day
Speaker 1: is Gracie makes a call during they're trying to catch
Speaker 1: some Russian guys. There's a briefcase, it's all very vague,
Speaker 1: but Gracie makes a call where she saves him for
Speaker 1: choking to death, and that choice results in one of
Speaker 1: her co workers getting shot. So that I thought was
Speaker 1: like a cool scene and a good example of like
Speaker 1: watching a female protagonist be flawed and funk up but
Speaker 1: in a way that isn't pointed or makes her seem incompetent,
Speaker 1: and the way she's treated like she's punished for it
Speaker 1: because she fucked up, but it's not. The subtext isn't
Speaker 1: like you're stupid or you don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 1: It's like you made a choice and it was the
Speaker 1: wrong choice for not following orders, which is a legitimate
Speaker 1: reason to get in trouble, especially when like people's lives
Speaker 1: around the line. I want a whole movie about Gracie
Speaker 1: and her boss. I really like that they got a
Speaker 1: fun dynamic. And also in that scene, she saves herself.
Speaker 1: So she gets like kind of held hostage by one
Speaker 1: of the bad guys and he's holding a knife to her,
Speaker 1: but she does the sing thing, so she does that
Speaker 1: and she saves herself. But that, yeah, so she gets
Speaker 1: in trouble, so she does kind of have to like, well,
Speaker 1: I'd say that, like, at no point does she have
Speaker 1: to like prove her competency at any point to the
Speaker 1: other characters. It's weird. It's like but smaller stuff though,
Speaker 1: where it's and she she I guess makes this point
Speaker 1: to Benjamin Bratt at one point of like, she's ultimately
Speaker 1: chosen for that assignment because she looks conventionally attractive in
Speaker 1: a bathing suit. And even though Benjamin Bratt later is like, no,
Speaker 1: it's not, it is like that is the clearly implied
Speaker 1: reason that she's chosen. It's like she's competent, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't hurt to look great in a bathing suit on
Speaker 1: top of being a you know, badass fighter. So that
Speaker 1: is sinister. And then in the next scene, just going
Speaker 1: back to that original, so Gracie is punished by her
Speaker 1: boss kind of rightfully, so she fox up, and then
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's character is put in charge of the beauty
Speaker 1: pageant thing, and then there's a whole scene where he
Speaker 1: is incompetent because he's like, oh, so what are we
Speaker 1: doing here? And then Gracie will make a suggestion He's like,
Speaker 1: we're going to do that, and then she makes another
Speaker 1: He's like, we're going to do that as well, where
Speaker 1: she is doing the job for him and it's pretty
Speaker 1: clearly spelled out, but then that kind of goes away
Speaker 1: as it goes on, and later he's like, I'm about
Speaker 1: the job. I was like, really, because we doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like you're very good at it. I read that scene
Speaker 1: as because it's a room full of men and they
Speaker 1: know that they have to work on this pageant thing,
Speaker 1: so they're like, oh, no, a thing that women do. Ah,
Speaker 1: and they like just completely forget how to do their job.
Speaker 1: And then like Heart comes in with like the oh
Speaker 1: she's a girl, but she's like, yeah, called the pageant
Speaker 1: and then called the network, set up meetings with them,
Speaker 1: like call the San Antonio people, let's get jurisdiction there,
Speaker 1: like all this like common sense stuff that they shouldn't
Speaker 1: to do, but they're just like girls stuff. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: lose their ship and then we get to the computer
Speaker 1: scene click click. There are many scenes of like male
Speaker 1: gaze throughout the movie Freaky, like Y two K male
Speaker 1: gaze where it's like not just male gaze, but male
Speaker 1: gaze via a Windows computer, which just seems so much
Speaker 1: worse now. Right. So the first one is when they're
Speaker 1: all crowded around and then they like make a game
Speaker 1: of it, so're like, okay, female agents under the age
Speaker 1: of thirty five who aren't pregnant as hell, who do
Speaker 1: we got? And then they're just like they're making women's
Speaker 1: bodies a spectacle. They have like popcorn. They have this
Speaker 1: weird software that can put one bathing suit on anyone,
Speaker 1: which is not real, but the photoshops are convincing, um,
Speaker 1: but it is that it's just like a whole scene
Speaker 1: where they go through women they don't know and they're
Speaker 1: like or like, and then they start putting bathing suits
Speaker 1: on man and then that's played as a joke, which
Speaker 1: is also just like how embarrassing if if a man
Speaker 1: presents as feminine at all exactly, And then and then
Speaker 1: they get to Gracie and they're like, also, why would
Speaker 1: the FBI know what she looks like naked? That's what
Speaker 1: that software implies, is like, we have your nudes and
Speaker 1: we will use them because they could just have because
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they just have a picture of
Speaker 1: her from multiple angles in a bathing suit. You're just like,
Speaker 1: that's not out the government works. Maybe we'll listen to
Speaker 1: this in a year and be like, that is how
Speaker 1: the governors. But as far as I know, they don't
Speaker 1: have nudes from every angle in the year two thousand. No, No,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ask Massage. Maybe he knows. So that's
Speaker 1: the first very male gaze you've seen where yeah, it's
Speaker 1: either like uggling women's bodies who they find attractive, or
Speaker 1: it's any woman who's not like conventionally beautiful by Western standards,
Speaker 1: or like there's like an age element too. If a
Speaker 1: woman's over a certain age, they get a grown and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's bad. So the second male gaze moment is heart
Speaker 1: is like equipped with like a little camera and she's
Speaker 1: being introduced to the other contestants and all the like
Speaker 1: FBI men are seeing this. They're like a girl, what's
Speaker 1: legs losing their ship? And that comes back a bunch
Speaker 1: of time. I mean that comes back when they're spending
Speaker 1: time together alone and having conversations. That happens whenever she's
Speaker 1: in a dressing room or backstage. You just cut to
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt and a bunch of men who have recently
Speaker 1: gotten their SAG cards. It's just like panting frantically and
Speaker 1: you're just like, oh great, they're they're federal agents and
Speaker 1: we trust them. Um yeah, but they're yeah, they're just
Speaker 1: like completely objectifying and like oggling over every woman they see.
Speaker 1: And then my my last point about that is that
Speaker 1: a demonstration that Benjamin Brott's character has grown is that
Speaker 1: like sometimes like two thirds into the movie, when they're
Speaker 1: doing that at the screen he steps in front of
Speaker 1: when they're about to look at Gracie's boobs, and he's like, guys, no,
Speaker 1: he comes in on his fucking horses. Actually, we shouldn't
Speaker 1: do this because I decided I respected my colleagues since
Speaker 1: she became hot. You're like, you don't get a trophy
Speaker 1: for that. You're all bad. Yeah. Another thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about is how Gracie Hart does not like
Speaker 1: other women at first at first, which I like, I
Speaker 1: understand why the movie made this choice there put it's
Speaker 1: like fish out of water scenario. It's like, Okay, who
Speaker 1: best would be the person to put into this like
Speaker 1: beauty pageant role? Shure, it's going to be like a
Speaker 1: woman who's rough around the edges, who doesn't like to
Speaker 1: be around other women and stuff like that, but like
Speaker 1: the way she treats and talks to other women. In
Speaker 1: the beginning of the movie, Shenamin Bread's on a date
Speaker 1: with someone and Heart is very patronizing to her, and
Speaker 1: we get her name, so, like her name is Beth,
Speaker 1: and she's like, I'd love to hear yeah, because she's
Speaker 1: writing a paper on like criminal justice, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a woman's opinion, and Heart is like,
Speaker 1: get out of my face, you idiot, you young idiot.
Speaker 1: And uh, it's not a great pass. It's not a
Speaker 1: good pass, but it is a pass. It's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can see that a lot of I
Speaker 1: think what would have been helpful is under having some
Speaker 1: context for why Grace he feels that way, because the
Speaker 1: only thing we know about her other than what we
Speaker 1: see unfold in real time is that scene at the
Speaker 1: very beginning of her when she was a little kid,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the only context we have for
Speaker 1: who she is and why she is the person she
Speaker 1: has later on. Right, So if we had I agree
Speaker 1: that that is like it's a choice that the writers
Speaker 1: have to make for the story to work and for
Speaker 1: like the growth to seem effective. But it wouldn't have
Speaker 1: hurt to have a little bit of background on Gracie
Speaker 1: and like what makes her inclined to be like a tomboy,
Speaker 1: or like why is she more comfortable around men than
Speaker 1: she is around women, Because that's like a character choice
Speaker 1: you can make if you explain why that is. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I also think there are other ways to
Speaker 1: make her be a fish out of water without making
Speaker 1: her actively hate every other woman she's ever talked to,
Speaker 1: because like their moments where she's like, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to parade around in a swimsuit like some airhead bimbo
Speaker 1: that goes by the name of Gracie Lou free Bush,
Speaker 1: which is how she gives them, and we love it there.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm very attached to
Speaker 1: this movie, and I will continue to make excuses for it. Uh,
Speaker 1: but she gets there. I don't know. I feel that
Speaker 1: this movie does a pretty good job of showing different,
Speaker 1: at least two different versions of femininity and what a
Speaker 1: woman can be, and then showing a version of femininity
Speaker 1: that's very commonly condescended to and uh, you know is
Speaker 1: male gayzey. But in getting to know individuals, like she
Speaker 1: makes friends and sees value and like learns how to
Speaker 1: interact with other women and have friendships in that at
Speaker 1: the end the speech, and it's great. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I I like her character's growth. I think it's very
Speaker 1: it makes me cry. It's a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: beautiful character arc. But yeah, I guess I would just
Speaker 1: argue that there are other ways that that could have
Speaker 1: been handled where she isn't so antagonistic to women. Again,
Speaker 1: I understan when the choice was made narratively, but it
Speaker 1: just means there's another example of a woman hating other
Speaker 1: women or women not getting along. But the nice thing
Speaker 1: is that that is overcome by the end of the movie,
Speaker 1: right it is. I don't know. I feel like sometimes
Speaker 1: in like media stuff, it can be valuable to see
Speaker 1: a very common trope and then have it be commented
Speaker 1: upon or resolved. That worked for me. But speaking of
Speaker 1: women on women violence, let's talk about Candy doing this.
Speaker 1: Candy is a deep well of trauma and she's what
Speaker 1: isn't she funked up about? There's first of all, masterful
Speaker 1: before the pants suits on this character iconic, iconic. She
Speaker 1: There is a Bettel passing scene where Canada's Burger threatens
Speaker 1: to kill Sandra b it is. It's great, one of
Speaker 1: my favorite passes of the entire podcast. She was like,
Speaker 1: this is my thing and if you suck it up,
Speaker 1: I will murder you with my hands. And we've graduated
Speaker 1: from the she's all that you should kill yourself to
Speaker 1: this congeniality I will kill you. Let's get rid of
Speaker 1: the middleman. I will kill you makes so much more active. Yes, yes, yes, yes, um.
Speaker 1: The main thing I wanted to say about her as
Speaker 1: the female villain is that I feel like female villains
Speaker 1: and I know they're exceptions to this role, but I
Speaker 1: feel like it's more common that female villains are there
Speaker 1: in the story when the protagonist is also a woman,
Speaker 1: as if to say, oh, a woman couldn't defeat a
Speaker 1: male hero, but if she's matched up, right, But if
Speaker 1: she's set up against a woman, then we as the
Speaker 1: audience have an easier time believing that she could pose
Speaker 1: a threat to the female hero. That's really I've never
Speaker 1: thought of that, but that I mean, if you just
Speaker 1: do a cursory review of princess movies, versus Yep, I'm
Speaker 1: convinced we've got half of an example, and yeah, filling
Speaker 1: the rest of the blanks. She's right, No, that's a
Speaker 1: great point. And and there's that I don't know. The
Speaker 1: her character is challenging because you are you're given more
Speaker 1: context for her character than you are given for most
Speaker 1: people in the entire movie where you find out that
Speaker 1: she was the runner up twenty five years ago, and
Speaker 1: it's still very mad about it, to the point where
Speaker 1: she's sabotaging, she wants to blow up someone's head a
Speaker 1: quarter century later about it. The bitterness attributed to her character,
Speaker 1: I feel like, is almost speaking to your point. A
Speaker 1: little bit is something commonly attributed to older female characters,
Speaker 1: where in a movie with like a younger protagonist, if
Speaker 1: they are older women around them, they either serve as
Speaker 1: like a mother a nurturing role, or if they're the villain,
Speaker 1: they're bitter about something that happened when they were younger,
Speaker 1: and they take out that bitterness by punishing or for instance,
Speaker 1: blowing the head up of someone younger than which is
Speaker 1: frustrated because it's like having Candice Bergen's character in this
Speaker 1: movie is amazing and it kind of it's it's kind
Speaker 1: of a waste in some ways, and a lazy writing
Speaker 1: choice to make like an age is like, oh, she's
Speaker 1: bitter because she's not, you know, a beautiful twenty five
Speaker 1: year old anymore, and because that's just such a common
Speaker 1: thing attributed to older female characters ever, as they're just
Speaker 1: pissed that they're not so funk that her sound looks
Speaker 1: like a turtle. Also, but yeah, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: liked I liked her. I liked that at least you
Speaker 1: she's not based. I'm just holding this nipple and I
Speaker 1: wanted to feel I'm gonna slither it down my throat. Okay, um,
Speaker 1: I like that. At least the writers gave enough consideration
Speaker 1: to that character to give her a backstory, because otherwise
Speaker 1: it would just be like a woman is crazy for
Speaker 1: no reason. So at least we get context. But the
Speaker 1: context is kind of lazy writing as well. So he
Speaker 1: way to like fake a bunch of serial killer notes,
Speaker 1: so skills. She also appears to be like good at
Speaker 1: her job of being in charge of the pageant. It
Speaker 1: seems very successful, and but also she wants to blow
Speaker 1: people up and that's bad and so it's hard Michael
Speaker 1: Caine also has a backstory where he I mean, it's
Speaker 1: sort of he's just like, I won't the champion, Like
Speaker 1: he's treating her kind of like Sea Biscuit. But also
Speaker 1: also we're like rooting for him. I don't know, right,
Speaker 1: can we? So let's talk about the makeover the make right,
Speaker 1: So Vick Michael Caine takes one look at Heart, knowing
Speaker 1: that he's going to have to make her over, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't. He's like, if you're crazy, Heart, I quit
Speaker 1: right here and now. Similar thing happens in Princess Diaries,
Speaker 1: like it's more fun the way it offense and Princess Diaries.
Speaker 1: If we've got to have a makeover scene for me,
Speaker 1: I go Princess Diaries every time. It's frustrating. Okay, this
Speaker 1: is something that is perhaps deeply rooted in my psyche.
Speaker 1: Every time I see the reveal on the makeover scene,
Speaker 1: I still am like, Wow, she's so pretty, and then
Speaker 1: I feel horrible about myself. But the reveal shot is
Speaker 1: it bangs. I don't know, like it's it's it's weird.
Speaker 1: It's like, I guess that's just like the core of
Speaker 1: our podcast too. It's just like, oh, I that I
Speaker 1: feel this way, but at least I understand why. But
Speaker 1: that reveal shot to Mustang Sally, Holy shit, it's very rewarding.
Speaker 1: But also I know, I know it. For this movie,
Speaker 1: the makeover is justified based on the context of the story, right,
Speaker 1: Although could you argue why do beauty pageants exist in
Speaker 1: the first place and why is the expectation for women
Speaker 1: to be so beautiful? But that's not the question this
Speaker 1: movie is asking, right. Yeah, so at least she's getting
Speaker 1: a makeover to be able to participate in a beauty pageant.
Speaker 1: Sorry scholarship pro scholarship, as we say sorry, So I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's kind of a cut and dry standard
Speaker 1: makeover sne where she has a middle part and then
Speaker 1: she doesn't. She's she's been Sandra Book the whole time.
Speaker 1: The reason she has the makeover is I would argue
Speaker 1: that she's it's like one of those not like the
Speaker 1: other girls women where you know, she choose with her
Speaker 1: mouth open, she doesn't care about her hair, she doesn't
Speaker 1: you know, she's clumsy. She wears gender neutral clothing most
Speaker 1: of the time. Here's where we start to pull from
Speaker 1: the Liz Lemon Book of Feminism that I find very
Speaker 1: troubling of like, let's present what no one can deny
Speaker 1: is a very conventionally attractive woman and just call her
Speaker 1: ugly over and over and just hope we can gaslight
Speaker 1: our own audience into being like, yeah, Tina Fey looks
Speaker 1: like shit and like just by I don't know that's
Speaker 1: something this movie does that on one hand, you never
Speaker 1: see women eat food in movies, and that is something
Speaker 1: that it's like, at least we see her eating like
Speaker 1: a normal person would, but she's dipping steak into spaghetti.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. Well, I guess this comes down to a lifestyle,
Speaker 1: not just shame that I've dipped things and other things
Speaker 1: that shouldn't have been dipped in. Perhaps I've I've dipped
Speaker 1: many things same, but I'll to say it's it's weird
Speaker 1: because it's like you do get to see someone eat
Speaker 1: like a human being, and when food is taken from
Speaker 1: her and beauty pattern food is given to her, the
Speaker 1: movie is commenting on it and like, this is fucked up.
Speaker 1: It doesn't to me suggest and this is what women
Speaker 1: should do. Like it. She's upset about it, she's annoyed
Speaker 1: with it, she doesn't want to do it. But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's like she's Sandra Bullock. Like it's
Speaker 1: annoying and frustrating in movies to try to gasolate your
Speaker 1: audience at the top of a movie and be like,
Speaker 1: she looks horrible and look, she's such a slob. She's
Speaker 1: called a slob over and over and over, and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: she's Sandra Bullock just like every time. It's like, you
Speaker 1: can't just give Tina Fee a cheese stick and call
Speaker 1: it a day. You can't like it's that is just
Speaker 1: a half hearted attempt at I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: like it. Side side Caitlin, Yeah, I'm tired. Can we
Speaker 1: take a break, Let's just take a quick break. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the makeover is justified narratively, unlike it is
Speaker 1: in other movies. It's not just like, well, men don't
Speaker 1: enjoy you, so but all the fix it. But again
Speaker 1: I have to go. But and maybe this is, you know,
Speaker 1: opening up the conversation to beauty pageants and because it
Speaker 1: is the makeup over justified whenever we consider I don't
Speaker 1: know where I land on this because on one hand,
Speaker 1: I'm like, your body, your choice, if you want to
Speaker 1: participate in a beauty pageant like you do you, but
Speaker 1: also because women have historically only been valued for their appearance,
Speaker 1: and then things like you know America and other beauty
Speaker 1: pageants just reinforce that and have historically been very racist,
Speaker 1: which we can also touch on. But because like there's
Speaker 1: no Mr America or is there. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: I don't think so, not that we know of there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a weird I don't know, that's tricky. I've
Speaker 1: I would feel weird coming down on either side of
Speaker 1: that argument, because it's like, if it's what you want
Speaker 1: to do and you feel good and empowered and comfortable
Speaker 1: with everything that's happening, great, but there are, like you
Speaker 1: were saying, like very clear examples of those being harmful
Speaker 1: to the women participating in them and certainly to like
Speaker 1: young women and like young boys, seeing that this is
Speaker 1: how we present women and this is what you're supposed
Speaker 1: to look like, slash, this is what you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be attracted to. So a lot just reinforces that like
Speaker 1: standard of beauty that we need to dismantle, am I right?
Speaker 1: But also like a piece so there's sort of you know,
Speaker 1: but I mean Grazie Heart does have a lot of
Speaker 1: opinions on beauty pageants, which she comes around on by
Speaker 1: the end, but in the beginning she's like, it's like
Speaker 1: feminism never happened, Like any woman that would want to
Speaker 1: participate in a beauty pageant is catering to a misogynistic
Speaker 1: neanderthal mentality. I wish she like at the end of
Speaker 1: the movie was like, well, there's arguments to be made
Speaker 1: either way, but she's like, pageants are awesome, and you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, And then like Benjamin Brott over
Speaker 1: here is like, hey, you can get scholarship money, you
Speaker 1: can see the world. He's very pro pageant, so wonder why,
Speaker 1: but also like, great, if you can get scholarships, why
Speaker 1: do you need to prove that you look fuckable in
Speaker 1: a bathing suit too? You know, the classic question again,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, but the way the
Speaker 1: story explores that, although I do wish that she didn't
Speaker 1: just the movie's conclusion isn't like pageants good, keep them going,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, that seems kind of like a Kappa, but
Speaker 1: we you know, the story takes extra care to like
Speaker 1: get to know at least five of the contestants and
Speaker 1: see how they interact with each other and learn at
Speaker 1: least a little bit about each of them. You learn
Speaker 1: most about Rhode Island, but there's I'm trying to remember
Speaker 1: the states New York, California, Texas. Those are you think
Speaker 1: the four main and plus Rhode Island and then Gracie's
Speaker 1: New Jersey. But like, you see them interact and they're
Speaker 1: very often not talking about men. They're talking about their backgrounds.
Speaker 1: They're talking about what they're like, plans or strategies are
Speaker 1: in the competition. They give each other advice, they exchange
Speaker 1: gossip while drunk and covered in paint. They do a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. And so by the end, when like
Speaker 1: the characters we know make the top ten, you're happy
Speaker 1: for them, which seems like kind of hard to do
Speaker 1: and a story with so many different characters, I appreciated
Speaker 1: that they went out of the way to show that
Speaker 1: they were people that wanted to be there and felt
Speaker 1: empowered by being there. Is that a weird cop out
Speaker 1: in its way? Probably, But also we get to know
Speaker 1: them and that's nice. Yeah, And the story could have
Speaker 1: easily not gone in that direction. It could have been,
Speaker 1: like I could have been bitches. Yeah, and rather than
Speaker 1: focusing on the like friendship that happens among them, it's
Speaker 1: more focused on the like romantic relationship with which, by
Speaker 1: the way, I also I just want to add how
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's character asks out Gracie because he says something like, hey,
Speaker 1: before we get back to New Jersey, you get all
Speaker 1: ugly again. Do you want to go out to dinner?
Speaker 1: And then if we fuck after that's cool. Just still
Speaker 1: be hot to me, like you're just like yikes. And
Speaker 1: then then she's like yes, and then it's an early interaction.
Speaker 1: It's not good right this movie. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: love I love it. And then there's those parts. It's
Speaker 1: a two other there's a there's some other parts. Uh
Speaker 1: problematic thing. Sorry. There's a scene at the very beginning
Speaker 1: whenever Heart is like in that restaurant. She's got like
Speaker 1: the book with the camera in it, and she's like
Speaker 1: trying to survey, like the people the woman with two asses.
Speaker 1: A woman gets fat shamed. Uh. There's jokes that make
Speaker 1: light of being deaf and being a mute. There's jokes
Speaker 1: that make light of eating disorders. Uhh Yeah. There's a
Speaker 1: very pointed comment from Gracie to Rhode Island, her best
Speaker 1: friend at there, and she's allegedly shalling up to make
Speaker 1: her feel better and brings pizza and beer, and then
Speaker 1: you know, all the women are like, you can't, we
Speaker 1: don't eat that, and Gracey says something you canto like
Speaker 1: who cares? Rodel was just going to throw it up anyways,
Speaker 1: which is outting her eating disorder, and it's just like,
Speaker 1: oh God, we're supposed to like the protagonists, like what
Speaker 1: the funk are you doing there? And in making light
Speaker 1: of like what is a serious issue inside of that
Speaker 1: community and for women in general. So yeah, funk. That
Speaker 1: does not age well that joke. Nor does There's a
Speaker 1: reference to Rainman, and then she like makes fun of
Speaker 1: people with developmental disabilities. Weird Rainman reference, and that's got
Speaker 1: Jurassic Park reference, so I guess that can stay whatever.
Speaker 1: I like, there's a lot of it is. It's all
Speaker 1: this little stuff that it's like, we don't lose anything
Speaker 1: from the meaning of this movie by losing these like
Speaker 1: shitty little interactions that could be replaced with other stuff. Right.
Speaker 1: There's another one where the reason that she's able to
Speaker 1: even enter into the contest because miss New Jersey was
Speaker 1: discovered as working at porn films, So it's like shaming
Speaker 1: people who work in the sex industry or working porn,
Speaker 1: so which a lot of been again leverage to be
Speaker 1: a criticism of the beauty pageant, but it isn't. It's
Speaker 1: right for a joke. So it's a lot of like
Speaker 1: early two thousand's era like problematic jokes that they weren't
Speaker 1: thinking of. But we as sophisticated eighteen years later audiences,
Speaker 1: we have never made a mistake or been wrong. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I agree that that was another moment that you're just
Speaker 1: like Jesus Christ. That's uh from people that were supposed
Speaker 1: to like I love Rhode Island, and I love that
Speaker 1: there's there's just like a range of different types of
Speaker 1: women where the you know, Gracie's assumption at the beginning
Speaker 1: is like every woman who participates in a beauty pageant
Speaker 1: is a specific way, and then we see that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of different types of people. Well, I argue
Speaker 1: that it's sort of like half lazily written to state
Speaker 1: that they're coming from, Yeah, the Texas girls like the Alamo,
Speaker 1: You're like, all right, New York talks about a bagel
Speaker 1: like you're just like, Okay, I guess there's a teacerent
Speaker 1: amount of diversity among that like group though, So yeah,
Speaker 1: so I mean there there is diversity in in the
Speaker 1: group of women we get to know. Um, it seems
Speaker 1: like the pageant majority, but the women we get to
Speaker 1: know the best are still It wasn't yes because Gracie
Speaker 1: and Rhode Island, but God love Rhode Island. That I
Speaker 1: was just gonna ask, what's your favorite date? What's your
Speaker 1: perfect day? She's such a dumbass. It's so sweet, but
Speaker 1: but like in a in a very endearing I love her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's she should be Miss Congeniality. Well she's misses. My
Speaker 1: head didn't blow up, so she should be thrilled. Can
Speaker 1: we talk about the scene where Miss Rhode Island talks
Speaker 1: about her college professor attacking her. Yes, because can and
Speaker 1: we will. So this is when Heart is coaxing information
Speaker 1: out of let's not let her get up the hook.
Speaker 1: She's actively trying to get people drunk for information. That's
Speaker 1: very much her intention is Like, she doesn't quite rufy
Speaker 1: her colleagues, but she is not as drunk as everyone
Speaker 1: else on purpose. She also just comes out and says, hey,
Speaker 1: have you ever committed a crime? Who was credited? Her job?
Speaker 1: Who was she? Kiano Reeves and point Break come on, Keiana.
Speaker 1: Point Break literally goes into a Burger joints like I'm
Speaker 1: in the FBI. This is my name, Like it's like compulsive.
Speaker 1: He can't help it. So she's like, hey, is anything
Speaker 1: like have you ever done anything bad? And then Cheryl
Speaker 1: ms Rhode Island talks about how her college professor attacked her,
Speaker 1: and then Heart says, did you report him? And she
Speaker 1: said no, I never told anyone before, but this kind
Speaker 1: of thing happens all the time. And then Heart says, no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't, and then we are like, yes, it does.
Speaker 1: And then she talks about how there's like all these
Speaker 1: maneuvers that she could show you. She's of course talking
Speaker 1: about sing sing. We got a lot of foreshadowing for
Speaker 1: saying until it happens. That interaction is interesting where it
Speaker 1: gets like percent of the way there for me, where
Speaker 1: in my head Gracie's reaction to Cheryl telling her that
Speaker 1: makes sense for that character because Gracie has been fighting
Speaker 1: people her whole life, so in her head that doesn't
Speaker 1: happen because she is tough and aggressive and fights people off.
Speaker 1: There should have been something done inside of that same
Speaker 1: scene to like you're saying to be like, no, that
Speaker 1: does happen. And Gracie, as much as she is doing
Speaker 1: a good thing in theory by teaching Cheryl how to
Speaker 1: defend herself, is also like this happens all the time,
Speaker 1: like putting the onus and the responsibility on the woman
Speaker 1: to defend herself because there's no way around it. You're
Speaker 1: gonna get attacked, so you have to learn how to
Speaker 1: defend yourself, versus acknowledging that this shouldn't be happening, Like
Speaker 1: That's all that would have taken for me for that
Speaker 1: scene to work, is like I'm sorry that happened to you,
Speaker 1: and acknowledging that that's a common thing, and then show
Speaker 1: Cheryl how to kick someone's ask great, I shouldn't have
Speaker 1: to teach you this. We should teach men not to attack.
Speaker 1: But here's saying, but in order to survive the world
Speaker 1: as it's been set up so far, break someone's nose,
Speaker 1: like fair, what do you have anything else? Most of
Speaker 1: my stuff? I think in general, I really like Gracie.
Speaker 1: I think that where her character lands is death. Definitely
Speaker 1: frustrating where we are to assume she's keeping the makeover,
Speaker 1: she's going to you know, take that change on permanently.
Speaker 1: It's not until she gets her makeover that she's able
Speaker 1: to find romantic love or has interest in romantic love
Speaker 1: that we know of. And she ends in kind of
Speaker 1: like a little bit too propageant, a little uncritical of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: so no one got blown up, so this system is
Speaker 1: doing good. And then the last interaction between Gracie and
Speaker 1: Miss morning Side was I don't know, like in theory,
Speaker 1: that's a cathartic moment for Gracie because she gets to
Speaker 1: clap back at Candice Bergen because Candasburgen says yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then Sandy says yes, and we're like, oh a callback.
Speaker 1: But Cannisburgen is chaotic evil in this that character didn't
Speaker 1: have to just be like pure evil. Like again, just
Speaker 1: getting back to what we talked about of how those
Speaker 1: characters are written. Is sort of satisfying to see her
Speaker 1: sent off to jail, but it's also cheap to put
Speaker 1: women against each other and then be like and now
Speaker 1: you go to prison, you're bad. And it's not like
Speaker 1: the system she was working with and was always bad, whatever,
Speaker 1: it's a perfect movie. A couple of other things I
Speaker 1: wanted to touch on. One of those more problematic components
Speaker 1: of the movie is the constant idea that's presented that
Speaker 1: people who identify as women need to be presenting as
Speaker 1: more feminine, like just a constant thing. Like Michael Caine's
Speaker 1: character says like, I've I've taken a woman without a
Speaker 1: discernible trace of estrogen and turned her into a lady.
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's like always nagging her, being like, you look
Speaker 1: like ship until you looked hot with that makeover, and
Speaker 1: now I love you. Yeah, I mean, well that that's
Speaker 1: kind of I feel like the fact that she decides
Speaker 1: to keep the makeover kind of says it all in
Speaker 1: terms of where the movie stands on that, and that's
Speaker 1: that's a bad Just make us wash her hair and
Speaker 1: not straighten it, and then it's like, weirdly that would
Speaker 1: be progress. That's fucked. Yeah, I think that's those are
Speaker 1: the main points that I had. Yeah, should we take
Speaker 1: any see if anyone has any questions thoughts that we didn't, Yeah, Oh,
Speaker 1: the question you asked, So the question was which actor
Speaker 1: should have been placed with Alfred Molina Okay, well, we've
Speaker 1: got a lot of options. Do I think he could
Speaker 1: have replaced the Chat I do. Do I think he
Speaker 1: could have replaced Michael Caine? I do, but not quite.
Speaker 1: Do I feel like he should have replaced Benjamin Bratt Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think if Alfred Molina is playing the Benjamin Bratt character,
Speaker 1: they have to rewrite it right because they're like, people
Speaker 1: are going to believe bad things coming out of Alfred
Speaker 1: Blina's math. He is a sweet teddy bear who respects women,
Speaker 1: and he's going to be doc Cock one day. We
Speaker 1: can't disrespect him like this. I think he would he
Speaker 1: should replace Benjamin Bratt. Final answer any other questions or thoughts, Alright,
Speaker 1: you gotta, we gotta. They're like leave retired. Um, it
Speaker 1: doesn't pass the Bectel test. It does a lot. There's
Speaker 1: almost an entire scene that passes the Actel test from
Speaker 1: what I could whenever all the contestants are being introduced
Speaker 1: to each other when yes, and then there's also almost
Speaker 1: a whole scene between Cheryl and Gracie that you get
Speaker 1: significantly in there before before a man is brought up,
Speaker 1: which is cool, and I think it's like a testament
Speaker 1: again to like the story having a vested interest in
Speaker 1: you getting to know who these women are, which is great. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: And then there's of course the scene where Kathy morning
Speaker 1: Side says, if you get in my way, I will
Speaker 1: kill you kens Bergen who she is, given it her all,
Speaker 1: I love it. I would pay her to threaten me.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I think there's a couple others here,
Speaker 1: and there's I mean, there's there's a bunch. Usually if
Speaker 1: there's a scene with contestants, it passes at least once
Speaker 1: inside of your average scene. If it's a scene with
Speaker 1: Gracie and miss morning Side, usually it passes. It takes
Speaker 1: a while because it takes it just takes Gracie a
Speaker 1: while to get to the pageant. But once we get there,
Speaker 1: it's relatively smooth sailing. If we're getting into it. Are
Speaker 1: they usually talking about traditionally feminine things such as beauty pageants, makeup?
Speaker 1: And yes, but you know the test is flawed. Also,
Speaker 1: there's the whenever Benjamin Bratt's character is like, hey, we
Speaker 1: suspect miss Rhode Island is a terrorist, go talk to
Speaker 1: her and get some information out of her. She's like, wait,
Speaker 1: you want me to talk to And they're like yeah,
Speaker 1: and she's like, what do I talk about? And they're
Speaker 1: like leg waxings, fake orgasms, the inability of men to commit,
Speaker 1: which is mostly what I talk about. It's like where
Speaker 1: is the lie? So that was a funny joke, some
Speaker 1: fun fun commentary, but like it shows that, like she
Speaker 1: does not even understand the concept of a woman talking
Speaker 1: to another woman. They play up the tomboy aspect to
Speaker 1: so much. She's like, do you want me to beat
Speaker 1: it out of her? Like what? We have seen her
Speaker 1: kick Benjamin Brad's ass multiple times at that point, so
Speaker 1: it does seem to be their friendship dynamic. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's just rowdy. Yeah. Shall we rate the movie? Yeah
Speaker 1: on our five nipple scale? Yeah, Okay, what do you
Speaker 1: think I would say? I think I'm going to give
Speaker 1: it a three. Okay, you can go higher if you want,
Speaker 1: But I feel I think there's there's too many kind
Speaker 1: of problematic things that don't ange well for me to
Speaker 1: go higher. But because it's Gracie Hart who is driving
Speaker 1: the narrative, she I don't think at any point has
Speaker 1: to be saved by a man. She's always saving herself.
Speaker 1: She's always advocating for herself and standing up for herself,
Speaker 1: defending herself. Um oh, one thing we didn't say is
Speaker 1: that she is the only one who doesn't give up
Speaker 1: on the mission. All the men quit yah, and she stays. Right,
Speaker 1: it's her hunch that like keeps her in the game.
Speaker 1: And she's right. She's really good at her job. She's like, hey, everyone,
Speaker 1: I'm really good at like decoding stuff. She's basically a hacker.
Speaker 1: She's hacking, so I'm biased sorts. So yeah, she's the
Speaker 1: one who does everything. She staves the day at the end.
Speaker 1: But as we discuss, there's you know, problematic things casual
Speaker 1: home phobia. The romance thing is big where we're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're supposed to root for her to end up with
Speaker 1: this guy who thinks she's ugly as hell until she
Speaker 1: gets a very painful procedure done. He's constantly nagging her,
Speaker 1: and he also like it's like I need to watch
Speaker 1: these things happen to you. Like he's there for her
Speaker 1: various waxing. It's like, leave. I think he took the
Speaker 1: day off to do that. You there could have been
Speaker 1: an opportunity to comment more on like the standards of
Speaker 1: beauty that society has decided or a thing, but it
Speaker 1: kind of misses out on some of that. It does
Speaker 1: provide some commentary, but I think it misses on other
Speaker 1: opportunities and definitely doesn't go all the way. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let land in the three and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give one to Gracie Hart, I'm going to give one
Speaker 1: to Candice, and i will give my final nipple to
Speaker 1: the bare nipple that we do see of Benjamin Bratt's
Speaker 1: I am going to go three and they have. Uh
Speaker 1: maybe three quarters four feels wrong for some reasons, but
Speaker 1: as close to a four as I can get without
Speaker 1: it be three and quarters. Three and three quarters works
Speaker 1: for me. Like you were saying, there are a lot
Speaker 1: of missed opportunities and just kind of general lazy y
Speaker 1: two K writing on the only woman we see who's
Speaker 1: over the age of forty is written to be very
Speaker 1: bitter and villainous. There was an opportunity to incorporate women
Speaker 1: of color in a more meaningful way, of like, even
Speaker 1: though it is a diverse group of women, we get
Speaker 1: to know, the three primary women we see and get
Speaker 1: to know well are still white ladies. But in general,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it does well in terms of
Speaker 1: it would have been very easy, like we were saying earlier,
Speaker 1: to make the stickle at the beauty pageant that the
Speaker 1: women were mean. And you know, that is more Gracie's
Speaker 1: obstacle to overcome. You know, she dislikes women, and she's
Speaker 1: right to at least the obstacle is that she's wrong
Speaker 1: and she cares about these women. And and you know
Speaker 1: at the end of the movie where she's late because
Speaker 1: she's in the FBI, etcetera, and they help her with
Speaker 1: her makeup and they get her ready, and that's like
Speaker 1: a nice moment, and I just choked up. Anyways, I
Speaker 1: love this movie. I think it's and and and it
Speaker 1: taught me how to sing. And Gracie is a I think,
Speaker 1: a great effective character whose arc works, although I wish
Speaker 1: she didn't end on the side of like and now
Speaker 1: I learned that beauty pageants are awesome and being hot
Speaker 1: is cool. By oh and now I'm armed and fabulous.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna give it three and three quarters, okay
Speaker 1: to to Gracie, one to New York and then the
Speaker 1: remainder to Tina, her girlfriend. Yeah, the sequel we're all
Speaker 1: waiting for. Also, Sandra Bullock comedic Powerhouse. The pratt falls
Speaker 1: in this movie, the brat falls. They Okay, I deserved there.
Speaker 1: She prat falls during a dramatic scene. It's great. She's
Speaker 1: at the beginning where she's like upset and at her
Speaker 1: apartment she's like the punchy bag. I got so much rage.
Speaker 1: But she's still prat falls because she's Sandra Bullock and
Speaker 1: she's committed to who she is. I want Sandra Bullock
Speaker 1: and Hillary Duff to prat fall off. Who is the
Speaker 1: true master? Yeah, well I think I think that's our show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for so much for coming. Thanks
Speaker 1: to Emissaries, huge, thank you Laura, Sam and Alias for
Speaker 1: having us here at Emissary Listeners. If you're ever in DC,
Speaker 1: you come check this place out. Is this really cool?
Speaker 1: Like it's a cafe, it's a bar, it's everything. It's
Speaker 1: there's just good for nipples. See what happens delicious jello nipples.
Speaker 1: I'm drunk. There's too many of these nimes. Thanks again
Speaker 1: to Emissary and everyone here, and thanks to you audience
Speaker 1: for coming. Enjoying the rest to night. That's mere