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Speaker 1: On the Bell cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, DC,

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Speaker 1: what's up? Thanks for being here. I'm Caitlin, I'm Jamie.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to the Backtel cast. Yeah, and uh

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Speaker 1: so right at the top for listeners at home. We're

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Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And we are at an intimate

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Speaker 1: gathering at Emissary and DC has everyone that wanted a

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Speaker 1: nipple jello shot had one. They're making their way around.

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Speaker 1: They're right typical man, they're right in front of them.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I mean, we've really to set the scene.

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Speaker 1: We've got a spread, We've got jello shots of nipples,

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Speaker 1: of various eyes is. We've got a lot of nipple

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Speaker 1: representation in the jello shots. I'm going to pick up

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Speaker 1: a particularly large one here. It's good. Uh And then

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Speaker 1: if you guys need a drink at any point in

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Speaker 1: the show, the Five Nips and the Free Bush are

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Speaker 1: available at the bar. So thank you Emissary for making

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Speaker 1: us these specialty cocktails. They're delicious, They're really really good.

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Speaker 1: And thanks for having us. That will pass the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: did what is It's hard at the live episodes because

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Speaker 1: it's like they know what it's about, but we still

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Speaker 1: have to say it. We have to housekeeping. So we

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Speaker 1: we talk about the portrayal of women in movies, we

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Speaker 1: use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point, which

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Speaker 1: is a test developed by cartoonist and writer Alison Bechtel

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Speaker 1: that requires any piece of media have two female identifying

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Speaker 1: characters with names speak to each other about something other

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Speaker 1: than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.

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Speaker 1: You'd think it would be possible for every movie to

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Speaker 1: do this, but if you were at our Nightmare Before

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Speaker 1: Christmas episode just now, you'll know that Tim Burton can't

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Speaker 1: do it. I cannot do it. Some people can. It's hard,

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Speaker 1: it's not hard, but it's it's not hard. It's so easy.

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Speaker 1: We have been talking for minutes. I haven't brought Tim Burton.

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Speaker 1: And that's on that thing that I said I would

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Speaker 1: never do. I did it. So we're talking about Miss

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Speaker 1: Congeniality today. Yes, clap if you have seen Miss Congeniality. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and no shame, no judgment. Clap if you have not

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Speaker 1: seen Miss Congeniality. One bartender in the bag, not bad.

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Speaker 1: Everyone did their homework. Everyone. I love when everyone does

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Speaker 1: their homework. It's very exciting. Yeah. Also, this is a

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Speaker 1: modern classic and there's no excuse. So Miss Congeniality is

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert. Oh has been one of my favorite movies. Really. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's so. As you might have noticed, we don't

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Speaker 1: have a guest because this is this is just us, baby,

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Speaker 1: It's an intimate gathering. So what's your history. I love

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Speaker 1: this movie. I'm pretty sure I didn't see I was

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Speaker 1: too young to see it in theaters brag, but I did.

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Speaker 1: My My cousin Tammy is here and we have for

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Speaker 1: sure watched this movie together nine million times. There are

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Speaker 1: various vhs is of it circulating throughout the family and

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Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, it was just like one of my

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Speaker 1: Still the only form of self defense I know is

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Speaker 1: saying from Miss Congeniality I like memorized. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is useful. I don't know if I could actually

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Speaker 1: execute it, but yeah, whatever, solar up. No, I'm kidding,

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Speaker 1: solar Plexus is hard. It's the gut. Tammy is a

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Speaker 1: black belt also, Yeah, she's like a triple black belt.

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Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to fight my cousin after the show.

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Speaker 1: She'll she'll win. But yeah, no, it's It's always been

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Speaker 1: one of my favorites. I think I first saw it

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Speaker 1: either with my mom my cousins were both, but I

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Speaker 1: watched it at least once a year. Wow, okay, I

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Speaker 1: love it so much. Great. I haven't seen this movie much.

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Speaker 1: Sorry I didn't grow but they probably only saw it

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Speaker 1: for the first time a few years ago and uh

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Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I watched it. Here's why I watched it

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Speaker 1: because I don't know if you know this or not,

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Speaker 1: but I did get a master's degree in screen running

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Speaker 1: from Boston University. I hate to bring it up, but

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Speaker 1: I wrote a script with a similar ish premise. Um.

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Speaker 1: My script was about a woman who takes improv classes

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Speaker 1: so that she can learn how to go undercover as

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Speaker 1: an FBI agent. Very cool story, I agree, So did

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Speaker 1: not make it to the big don't know anyway, So

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Speaker 1: that was like the script I was writing. And I

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Speaker 1: watched this movie as research. Would have been in like

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Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen or something like that that I saw

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Speaker 1: this for the first time. Okay, okay, So we came

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Speaker 1: in at a very different points a late Miss Congeniality bloomer.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, you got there, that's all that count. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's okay, something that I suspect will be polarizing, not

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Speaker 1: as polarizing as dry scams web scams, but maybe close

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Speaker 1: as Miss Congeniality was the first movie I saw Michael

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Speaker 1: Caine in. Mm right, Caitlin first saw Michael Caine and Muppets,

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Speaker 1: Christmas Carol. Yeah, lots and not have a feeling that

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Speaker 1: maybe there's some Batman people and there is well I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he's been in other movies. But that's so wait okay,

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Speaker 1: so so clap, clap, your a little pause together. If

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Speaker 1: Miss Congeniality was your first cane, okay, we got a few.

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Speaker 1: If Muppets was your first cane, if Batman was your

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Speaker 1: first cane, yeah, we're adults here, right. How about the movie?

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Speaker 1: Is it Elfie from? This is a real thing that

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Speaker 1: Michael Kine was in? Again, I have a master's degree.

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Speaker 1: It was from like the seventies or something, so coming

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Speaker 1: in with slightly different backgrounds, but so shall I do

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Speaker 1: the recap? Let's do it. Okay, So Miss Congeniality we

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Speaker 1: meet Gracie Heart. She's an FBI agent. She's a little

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Speaker 1: rough around the edges, but when we meet her when

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Speaker 1: she's a kid. For yes, she punches two boys in

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Speaker 1: one scene. Great moment in cinema. It's great. I like

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Speaker 1: that scene a lot because I don't know. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was like, there there's a boy that is about

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Speaker 1: to get beat up because he's being a quote unquote

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Speaker 1: like sissy and like he sucks, and then Gracie comes

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Speaker 1: to his rescue by punching out the bully. And then

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Speaker 1: she approaches the boy she saved and she's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I think you're great. She has a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a crush on him, and then he rejects her and

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Speaker 1: it's like, now I look even stupider because I needed

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Speaker 1: a girl to rescue me. And then she punches him out.

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Speaker 1: I feel this is a very like realistic depiction of

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Speaker 1: how a young boy would react in that situation. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: and I wish that I could punch. I found that

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Speaker 1: seemed very cathartic and good. My only problem with it

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Speaker 1: is when he's like, you're a girl and she's like,

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Speaker 1: well you're a girl, using girl as an insult. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But other than that yeah, perfect scene, no notes perfect.

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Speaker 1: So then she we meet her as an adult and

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Speaker 1: she's got a middle part. Guys, she's in bad shape.

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Speaker 1: The movie would have you believe middle there's nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: with them, but for some reason that is like code

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Speaker 1: for like, yeah, she's got a middle part and she

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Speaker 1: doesn't plug. So she is undercover with the FBI. She's

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Speaker 1: a field agent, but you know, she's got frizzy hair,

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Speaker 1: so she's not hot yet, and she and her crew

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Speaker 1: are looking for a serial killer named the Citizen. The

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Speaker 1: figure out that the Citizen is planning to target the

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Speaker 1: Misunited States pageant, so they're like, hey, we better send

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Speaker 1: someone undercover to like scope this out. Then there's a

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Speaker 1: very sinister scene using hacker technology that is just hacker

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Speaker 1: technology is often misapplied, and speaking on behalf of my community,

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Speaker 1: I apologize where they do. They're looking for the right agent,

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Speaker 1: which just means that they're looking at pictures of their

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Speaker 1: co workers in bikinis, and everyone is like t he

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Speaker 1: he we love this, and then oh what if we

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Speaker 1: put our austin a bikini? And then oh wait, he's

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Speaker 1: right behind me and we're and we're laughing, and we're

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Speaker 1: laughing but we're troubled in the year. That's not good.

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Speaker 1: We can unpack that scene at a moment. There's a lot. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the agent that they end up selecting to go

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Speaker 1: under cover to participate in the Miss United States pageants,

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Speaker 1: Sandra Bullock, turns out she's hot and her colleague Matthews

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Speaker 1: played by Benjamin Bratt, Oh my god, hot, terrible character,

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Speaker 1: unbelievably handsome man. So he's leading this operation and he

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Speaker 1: convinces her to do this whole thing. So they meet

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Speaker 1: with Miss morning Side, Kathy morning Side, Candy Bergen, and

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Speaker 1: Stan Fields are all buddy shot. The Chat that's what

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Speaker 1: they call him. They call a shot. That's disgusting, okay,

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Speaker 1: the shot they meet with the shot. Okay. So she

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Speaker 1: enters the contest as Miss New Jersey and she gets

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Speaker 1: teamed up with Victor Michael Caine. Great impression both of

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Speaker 1: us because he's like a pageant coach, and he gives

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Speaker 1: her this major makeover. They bring her to like a

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Speaker 1: warehouse like they's so it's like an airplane hangar. Are

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Speaker 1: you ever so ugly you need someone to rent a

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Speaker 1: building to fix you? It's upsetting how much Princess Diaries

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Speaker 1: they need a room for a couple hours. But Sandra Bullock,

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Speaker 1: apparently Sandra Bullock in her middle part, are so suffering.

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Speaker 1: The flags at half masted and they like locked down.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know where they are. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: giant building and they needed it to turn Sandra look

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Speaker 1: into a beautiful woman. Believable. So then she goes to

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Speaker 1: the orientation. She meets miss Rhode Island. Oh god, we

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Speaker 1: love her. So you know she's working on her things.

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Speaker 1: She like it is a beauty queen. Now she does

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Speaker 1: her talent. This this thing you the listeners at home,

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Speaker 1: Jamie and I both just rubbed our fingers on our classes.

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Speaker 1: Would be so confusing context alright, So and then they

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Speaker 1: get some new evidence that the envelope from the Citizen

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Speaker 1: was licked by a woman, which is like, what is this?

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Speaker 1: DNA does that? We know she's a woman, but that's

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Speaker 1: not that's not how that works. Well anyways, the movie

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Speaker 1: has to continue, so right, So Kathy morning Side is

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Speaker 1: mean to her, victors mean to her. She's like, I quit.

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Speaker 1: But then Benjamin Brad's like, but look how hot I

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Speaker 1: am And he's like She's like, okay, I'll stay. Then

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Speaker 1: I get there like, oh, miss Rhode Island, she's a

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Speaker 1: terrorist maybe because she's like Tita and they're like, she's

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Speaker 1: she's just in Peta, like that's it. She's like for,

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Speaker 1: I don't like for and they're like, well, clearly she's

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Speaker 1: a killer. She's but in order to like try to

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Speaker 1: coax some information out of her, she hangs out with

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Speaker 1: the gals and gets closer to them, maybe even make

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Speaker 1: some friends, and learns a little sounding about herself something.

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Speaker 1: And then she learns that Miss morning Side is getting

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Speaker 1: fired by we already knew the shot was getting fixed,

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Speaker 1: we didn't know that Candy was getting dumped as well,

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Speaker 1: and this is a game changer. Also, Candy Bergen has

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Speaker 1: an unfuckable son who becomes relevant as the movie goes on. Yes, Frank,

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Speaker 1: that sounds cruel, but he is dressed like a turtle repeatedly,

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Speaker 1: and he's literally the turtle turtle guy. But then they

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Speaker 1: catch the citizens are like, wait a minute, we we

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Speaker 1: got him. There's no need to be here at the

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Speaker 1: pageant anymore. But our friend Heart, she's got a hunch

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Speaker 1: and she's like, no, I think we need to keep

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Speaker 1: our eye on Miss morning Side, which is true because

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Speaker 1: she ends up being so bitter that she got fired

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Speaker 1: that and that's God's implied that she lost a pageant

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Speaker 1: twenty five years ago and poisoned the winner so that

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Speaker 1: she could claim the throne. She's I also don't understand

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Speaker 1: was her plan to blow someone's head up? Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: that is exactly the plan. That's a bad plan because

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Speaker 1: the crown is like a bomb, right, but it's like that,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just like, of all people, Miss

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Speaker 1: Rhode Island, she's so pure well so, so it's time

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Speaker 1: for the may and pageant and hearts like, I gotta

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Speaker 1: do my talent, but the water glasses got drank, so

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Speaker 1: then she has to do the sing scene thing she

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Speaker 1: gets she kicks Benjamin Bratt's ass on stage, very satisfying.

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Speaker 1: It's really cool. Yeah, and then she makes it into

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Speaker 1: the top five and everything's exciting trigged, but we are

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Speaker 1: still drilled. And then Mr Rhode Island wins, but hearts

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Speaker 1: like she figures out that it's the crown that's the bomb,

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Speaker 1: so she like flings herself at her and you know,

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Speaker 1: rips off the crown. There's a whole scuffle. The chat

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Speaker 1: is like the show must go on keeps singing its

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Speaker 1: line roots where he's just saying the lyrics to the

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Speaker 1: song five seconds after they've been song is great. It's

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Speaker 1: also one of those classic scenes of like it's taking

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Speaker 1: forever to detonate a bomb for no reason, like her

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Speaker 1: Turtle Son's like I'm gonna do it. It's like normally

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Speaker 1: fingers slipped, and then it falls down stair by stair,

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Speaker 1: and then finally Candice Burgend is like, I'm gonna blow

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Speaker 1: up Miss Rhode Island's head, but she fails. She fells heart,

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Speaker 1: saves the day, and then at the end she gets

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Speaker 1: voted believe it or not, Miss Congeniality, it's nice, which

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Speaker 1: means that you didn't win, but you're nice, yeah, which

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Speaker 1: is something that is achievable for people. Yes, Okay, so

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Speaker 1: that's the movie. Good Night, No, I'm kidding. Um, So

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Speaker 1: where should we start. Let's start with the relationship because

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Speaker 1: that is like one of the things I don't like

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Speaker 1: about the movie that I just really want to knock off.

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Speaker 1: At the top, se can just sing this movie's praises,

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Speaker 1: but the relationship in this movie sucks. Yeah, it's a bummer.

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's face and physique are wasted in this movie.

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Speaker 1: But it's because and it's weird because it's like I

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Speaker 1: think the movie sort of like it. It tries to

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Speaker 1: paint them as equals, but in ways that just demonstrate

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Speaker 1: their imbalance in the workplace even more. Where at the beginning, especially,

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Speaker 1: he's treating her like one of the guys, and he's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we like you know, we like funk with each other.

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Speaker 1: We insult each other, but all of his insults are

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Speaker 1: very pointedly misogynist about her body. He slaps her ass

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Speaker 1: at one point, he makes comments about how he doesn't

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Speaker 1: find her attractive all the time, and then the whole

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Speaker 1: journey of this relationship is like he respects her after

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Speaker 1: she gets a makeover and is just as good at

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Speaker 1: her job as she ever was and is the same person,

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Speaker 1: but now she has a hair straightener and he's in love.

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Speaker 1: I hate it. Some of my favorite lines from him are,

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Speaker 1: by the way, you look like hell really cute. I

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Speaker 1: think McDonald, their male boss, is more feminine than you.

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Speaker 1: I'd rather kiss him, so you know, he's a feminist

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Speaker 1: icon to punch. It's a homophobic joke and a misogynist joke.

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Speaker 1: Mr Bratt right, he is like he's sexist, he's homophobic.

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Speaker 1: It's just like toxic masculinity all over the place. But

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Speaker 1: he's the love interest l O L. It's weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's weird because it's like you do, I mean,

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Speaker 1: especially the nice younger. I had like a deep affection

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Speaker 1: for that character. But it's because there you can tell

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Speaker 1: the reason she likes him. But her character, who were

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Speaker 1: sort of led to believe calls people out, doesn't really

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Speaker 1: call him out to the extent that he deserves to

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Speaker 1: be called out right, because she calls out Michael Caine's

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Speaker 1: character a lot. She's always like everyone, Yeah, she calls

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Speaker 1: out these little boys at the beginning almost for yeah.

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Speaker 1: So so that whole character in that relationship, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's a movie in two thousand. There's gonna

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Speaker 1: be uh romance shoehorned in. But it's like there there

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Speaker 1: were enough good elements of his character that it could

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Speaker 1: have been a more level, fair relationship and there didn't

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Speaker 1: need to be so many cast off Like most of

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Speaker 1: the stuff in this movie that sucks is pretty fixable

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Speaker 1: of Like, it's a lot of just cast off misogynists

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Speaker 1: and homophobic jokes that don't need to be there. They

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Speaker 1: don't really add anything, and by like, just don't do that.

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Speaker 1: And it's weird because so this movie was written by

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Speaker 1: two women and a guy, Katie Ford and Karen Lucas

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Speaker 1: and Mark Lawrence. I was trying to do research on

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Speaker 1: each of them. Couldn't find a ton on karenen Lucas.

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Speaker 1: But Katie Ford is a queer woman, so you would

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Speaker 1: think that there wouldn't be quite so much kind of

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Speaker 1: casual homophobia in it. But then it was also two

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Speaker 1: thousand so and the other end of that is there's

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Speaker 1: more queer characters in this movie than in most movies

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Speaker 1: of that time and still now where there's I mean

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Speaker 1: at least two characters that have direct impact on the

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Speaker 1: plot that identify as queer. And it's not like coding

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Speaker 1: and all the bullshit were used to where Michael Caine's

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Speaker 1: character identifies as queer. Wait see, I found he's like

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Speaker 1: wex your pubes. It's all a character. I found him

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Speaker 1: to be more coded that way than identifiably that way.

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Speaker 1: But I might have missed something. Well. He implies several

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Speaker 1: times that he's in relationships with men and and at

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Speaker 1: one point plays it off as a homophobic joke where

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Speaker 1: he's talking to someone he knows and he says about

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's character like he he's with me, and she's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: so to me that it's not an explicit statement, but

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Speaker 1: that I don't know. That went a step further than

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Speaker 1: coding to me, because usually like a coded character in

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Speaker 1: my head is like playing to every trope and not

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Speaker 1: acknowledging anything outside of a trope where he is acknowledging

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Speaker 1: he is attracted to men and he's been in relationships

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Speaker 1: with men. I feel like it's alluded to several times

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Speaker 1: where that was just my read of it. There's a

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Speaker 1: moment where he grasps Benjamin Bratt's shoulder and then he's like,

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Speaker 1: what a pity that he can't that he can't stay

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Speaker 1: and stop with that impression. And then at the end

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Speaker 1: of the movie, Miss New York comes out to the

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Speaker 1: world on stage and says that it's like, what is

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Speaker 1: the line she has? Oh, it's she says, it's great, Oh,

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Speaker 1: hang on, I got it here, and her girlfriend's in

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Speaker 1: the crowd and she's like yes, and then we're like

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Speaker 1: love winds and then she's dragged off stage. So it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so it's I just want to let all the lesbians

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Speaker 1: out there. No. If I can make it into the

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Speaker 1: top ten, so can you. And then she's like love you,

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Speaker 1: Tina or something Tina's like, and then we're like yeah.

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Speaker 1: But then immediately after that they cut to the TV station.

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Speaker 1: It's weird. It's like you get a good moment and

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Speaker 1: then it's sort of cast off in the next moment

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Speaker 1: where the TV people are like, can we even say

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Speaker 1: lesbian on television? And it's like no, no, no, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Like that mostly worked for me because

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Speaker 1: so like Miss New York says says that, and then

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Speaker 1: like Gracie collapse and woos to show her support, and

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Speaker 1: then William Shatner is like, stay tuned for our final

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Speaker 1: five lesbians contestants. And then after that the guy behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes is like can we even say And then

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Speaker 1: there's a woman who's like, you got a problem with that?

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Speaker 1: So to me, like the men are made to look

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Speaker 1: like bumbling idiots who like can't hang, and then the

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Speaker 1: women in that scene are all like kind of challenging

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Speaker 1: the status quo. Well, I would even say that it's

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Speaker 1: restricted to gender. I just think that in that scene,

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Speaker 1: everyone whose side we're firmly on, which includes Victor, are

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Speaker 1: pro miss New York basically coming out to the world

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Speaker 1: on live TV, and so everyone whose corner we're in

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Speaker 1: is cool with it and not shamy. And yeah, the

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Speaker 1: guy who's like like he's made to look that way,

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Speaker 1: the movie wants you to see him that way. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I was okay with that. What didn't work for

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Speaker 1: me so well was the scene where Victor tells, like

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Speaker 1: a backstage hand, he's like, Benjamin Brett's is with me,

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Speaker 1: and then he's like, I'm not with him with him

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Speaker 1: because he is wildly insecure about his sexuality and he

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Speaker 1: does not like gay people. But again, he is poised

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Speaker 1: as the love interest in standard book kisses a homophobe.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the movie, Sandy, there are still

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Speaker 1: there are problems, and he was also in The blind Side,

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Speaker 1: so she's got certainly some problematic things of her catalog.

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Speaker 1: The way this movie handles queerness is kind of all

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Speaker 1: over the place. But I don't know if for two

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Speaker 1: thousand it acknowledges queerness in the way that most mainstream

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Speaker 1: movies wouldn't give it. That. Yeah, So back to the

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Speaker 1: conversation about the Benjamin Bratt character and he is in

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Speaker 1: a pool and that's good. Uh, well, you see his nipples.

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Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, there's that whole scene where their heart

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Speaker 1: and Matthews are wrestling. Whenever he's trying to convince her

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Speaker 1: to like take this undercover role, there's moments where like

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Speaker 1: she he's like, just do a few like button shipping exercises,

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Speaker 1: tighten ess, slap or in the ass. He slaps her

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Speaker 1: in the ass again. At the end of the scene.

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Speaker 1: There's a moment where like she has his head right

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Speaker 1: in her crotch and they're like doing this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, I wonder if these characters have

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Speaker 1: sexual tension, that that is a thing that whenever, like

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Speaker 1: a woman is fighting a man in a movie, I

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Speaker 1: feel like it always comes down to the head between

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Speaker 1: the legs and it becomes this like sexual subtext of

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Speaker 1: I know that's a legitimate move you can do, but

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Speaker 1: must we every single time? And must we deliver a cute,

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Speaker 1: little punchy line while we do it, like squeeze head

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Speaker 1: of like you I was gonna say, you're cute, but

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Speaker 1: whatever equip not you're cute that's not equip that's just

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Speaker 1: a feeling. I feel like I feel like Black Widow

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Speaker 1: does it all the time, and like the Avengers movies.

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Speaker 1: It happens in the Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle Ever

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Speaker 1: heard of it? Is there a fandom for that feeling,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it? It's the guy who can find the nipple? Basically,

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Speaker 1: any any movie where there is a like female action star,

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Speaker 1: you can better believe that she is wrapping her pussy

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Speaker 1: around his face and using it to slam him into

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Speaker 1: the ground. He's like, Wow, she's powerful, and you're just

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Speaker 1: like ick, yeah, that's gross. And of course that moment

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Speaker 1: happens a lot, and usually in narratives where a woman

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Speaker 1: who is like unusually strong or good at fighting is

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Speaker 1: forced to prove that over and over and over, which

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Speaker 1: this movie does a few times. Hey, i think it's

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Speaker 1: about time for us to just take a little quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm tired. I'm tired news the way okay, transition a

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Speaker 1: little bit to the way Gracie is treated by her

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Speaker 1: co workers again is all over the place where they

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Speaker 1: definitely know she's good and they do seem to respect her,

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Speaker 1: and like the opening sequence in Like the Present day

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Speaker 1: is Gracie makes a call during they're trying to catch

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Speaker 1: some Russian guys. There's a briefcase, it's all very vague,

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Speaker 1: but Gracie makes a call where she saves him for

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Speaker 1: choking to death, and that choice results in one of

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Speaker 1: her co workers getting shot. So that I thought was

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00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: like a cool scene and a good example of like

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Speaker 1: watching a female protagonist be flawed and funk up but

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Speaker 1: in a way that isn't pointed or makes her seem incompetent,

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Speaker 1: and the way she's treated like she's punished for it

408
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Speaker 1: because she fucked up, but it's not. The subtext isn't

409
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Speaker 1: like you're stupid or you don't know what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: It's like you made a choice and it was the

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Speaker 1: wrong choice for not following orders, which is a legitimate

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Speaker 1: reason to get in trouble, especially when like people's lives

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Speaker 1: around the line. I want a whole movie about Gracie

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Speaker 1: and her boss. I really like that they got a

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Speaker 1: fun dynamic. And also in that scene, she saves herself.

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Speaker 1: So she gets like kind of held hostage by one

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Speaker 1: of the bad guys and he's holding a knife to her,

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Speaker 1: but she does the sing thing, so she does that

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Speaker 1: and she saves herself. But that, yeah, so she gets

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Speaker 1: in trouble, so she does kind of have to like, well,

421
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: I'd say that, like, at no point does she have

422
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: to like prove her competency at any point to the

423
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: other characters. It's weird. It's like but smaller stuff though,

424
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: where it's and she she I guess makes this point

425
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: to Benjamin Bratt at one point of like, she's ultimately

426
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: chosen for that assignment because she looks conventionally attractive in

427
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: a bathing suit. And even though Benjamin Bratt later is like, no,

428
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: it's not, it is like that is the clearly implied

429
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: reason that she's chosen. It's like she's competent, but it

430
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: doesn't hurt to look great in a bathing suit on

431
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: top of being a you know, badass fighter. So that

432
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: is sinister. And then in the next scene, just going

433
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: back to that original, so Gracie is punished by her

434
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: boss kind of rightfully, so she fox up, and then

435
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's character is put in charge of the beauty

436
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: pageant thing, and then there's a whole scene where he

437
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: is incompetent because he's like, oh, so what are we

438
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: doing here? And then Gracie will make a suggestion He's like,

439
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: we're going to do that, and then she makes another

440
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: He's like, we're going to do that as well, where

441
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: she is doing the job for him and it's pretty

442
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: clearly spelled out, but then that kind of goes away

443
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: as it goes on, and later he's like, I'm about

444
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: the job. I was like, really, because we doesn't seem

445
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: like you're very good at it. I read that scene

446
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: as because it's a room full of men and they

447
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: know that they have to work on this pageant thing,

448
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: so they're like, oh, no, a thing that women do. Ah,

449
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: and they like just completely forget how to do their job.

450
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: And then like Heart comes in with like the oh

451
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: she's a girl, but she's like, yeah, called the pageant

452
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: and then called the network, set up meetings with them,

453
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: like call the San Antonio people, let's get jurisdiction there,

454
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: like all this like common sense stuff that they shouldn't

455
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: to do, but they're just like girls stuff. Yeah, they

456
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: lose their ship and then we get to the computer

457
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: scene click click. There are many scenes of like male

458
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: gaze throughout the movie Freaky, like Y two K male

459
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: gaze where it's like not just male gaze, but male

460
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: gaze via a Windows computer, which just seems so much

461
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: worse now. Right. So the first one is when they're

462
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: all crowded around and then they like make a game

463
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: of it, so're like, okay, female agents under the age

464
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: of thirty five who aren't pregnant as hell, who do

465
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: we got? And then they're just like they're making women's

466
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: bodies a spectacle. They have like popcorn. They have this

467
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: weird software that can put one bathing suit on anyone,

468
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: which is not real, but the photoshops are convincing, um,

469
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: but it is that it's just like a whole scene

470
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: where they go through women they don't know and they're

471
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: like or like, and then they start putting bathing suits

472
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: on man and then that's played as a joke, which

473
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: is also just like how embarrassing if if a man

474
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: presents as feminine at all exactly, And then and then

475
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: they get to Gracie and they're like, also, why would

476
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: the FBI know what she looks like naked? That's what

477
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: that software implies, is like, we have your nudes and

478
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: we will use them because they could just have because

479
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they just have a picture of

480
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,239
Speaker 1: her from multiple angles in a bathing suit. You're just like,

481
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: that's not out the government works. Maybe we'll listen to

482
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: this in a year and be like, that is how

483
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: the governors. But as far as I know, they don't

484
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: have nudes from every angle in the year two thousand. No, No,

485
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ask Massage. Maybe he knows. So that's

486
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: the first very male gaze you've seen where yeah, it's

487
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: either like uggling women's bodies who they find attractive, or

488
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: it's any woman who's not like conventionally beautiful by Western standards,

489
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: or like there's like an age element too. If a

490
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: woman's over a certain age, they get a grown and yeah,

491
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: it's bad. So the second male gaze moment is heart

492
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: is like equipped with like a little camera and she's

493
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: being introduced to the other contestants and all the like

494
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: FBI men are seeing this. They're like a girl, what's

495
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: legs losing their ship? And that comes back a bunch

496
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: of time. I mean that comes back when they're spending

497
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: time together alone and having conversations. That happens whenever she's

498
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: in a dressing room or backstage. You just cut to

499
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt and a bunch of men who have recently

500
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: gotten their SAG cards. It's just like panting frantically and

501
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: you're just like, oh great, they're they're federal agents and

502
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: we trust them. Um yeah, but they're yeah, they're just

503
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: like completely objectifying and like oggling over every woman they see.

504
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: And then my my last point about that is that

505
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: a demonstration that Benjamin Brott's character has grown is that

506
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: like sometimes like two thirds into the movie, when they're

507
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: doing that at the screen he steps in front of

508
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: when they're about to look at Gracie's boobs, and he's like, guys, no,

509
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: he comes in on his fucking horses. Actually, we shouldn't

510
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: do this because I decided I respected my colleagues since

511
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: she became hot. You're like, you don't get a trophy

512
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: for that. You're all bad. Yeah. Another thing I wanted

513
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: to talk about is how Gracie Hart does not like

514
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: other women at first at first, which I like, I

515
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: understand why the movie made this choice there put it's

516
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: like fish out of water scenario. It's like, Okay, who

517
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: best would be the person to put into this like

518
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: beauty pageant role? Shure, it's going to be like a

519
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: woman who's rough around the edges, who doesn't like to

520
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: be around other women and stuff like that, but like

521
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: the way she treats and talks to other women. In

522
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: the beginning of the movie, Shenamin Bread's on a date

523
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: with someone and Heart is very patronizing to her, and

524
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: we get her name, so, like her name is Beth,

525
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: and she's like, I'd love to hear yeah, because she's

526
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: writing a paper on like criminal justice, and she's like,

527
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a woman's opinion, and Heart is like,

528
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: get out of my face, you idiot, you young idiot.

529
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: And uh, it's not a great pass. It's not a

530
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: good pass, but it is a pass. It's it's interesting.

531
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you can see that a lot of I

532
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: think what would have been helpful is under having some

533
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: context for why Grace he feels that way, because the

534
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: only thing we know about her other than what we

535
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: see unfold in real time is that scene at the

536
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: very beginning of her when she was a little kid,

537
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the only context we have for

538
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: who she is and why she is the person she

539
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: has later on. Right, So if we had I agree

540
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 1: that that is like it's a choice that the writers

541
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: have to make for the story to work and for

542
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: like the growth to seem effective. But it wouldn't have

543
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: hurt to have a little bit of background on Gracie

544
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: and like what makes her inclined to be like a tomboy,

545
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: or like why is she more comfortable around men than

546
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: she is around women, Because that's like a character choice

547
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: you can make if you explain why that is. I

548
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: don't know. I also think there are other ways to

549
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: make her be a fish out of water without making

550
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: her actively hate every other woman she's ever talked to,

551
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: because like their moments where she's like, I'm not going

552
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: to parade around in a swimsuit like some airhead bimbo

553
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: that goes by the name of Gracie Lou free Bush,

554
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: which is how she gives them, and we love it there.

555
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm very attached to

556
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: this movie, and I will continue to make excuses for it. Uh,

557
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: but she gets there. I don't know. I feel that

558
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: this movie does a pretty good job of showing different,

559
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,959
Speaker 1: at least two different versions of femininity and what a

560
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: woman can be, and then showing a version of femininity

561
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: that's very commonly condescended to and uh, you know is

562
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: male gayzey. But in getting to know individuals, like she

563
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: makes friends and sees value and like learns how to

564
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: interact with other women and have friendships in that at

565
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: the end the speech, and it's great. I don't know.

566
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: I I like her character's growth. I think it's very

567
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: it makes me cry. It's a it's a it's a

568
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: beautiful character arc. But yeah, I guess I would just

569
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: argue that there are other ways that that could have

570
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: been handled where she isn't so antagonistic to women. Again,

571
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: I understan when the choice was made narratively, but it

572
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: just means there's another example of a woman hating other

573
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: women or women not getting along. But the nice thing

574
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: is that that is overcome by the end of the movie,

575
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: right it is. I don't know. I feel like sometimes

576
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: in like media stuff, it can be valuable to see

577
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: a very common trope and then have it be commented

578
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: upon or resolved. That worked for me. But speaking of

579
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: women on women violence, let's talk about Candy doing this.

580
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: Candy is a deep well of trauma and she's what

581
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: isn't she funked up about? There's first of all, masterful

582
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: before the pants suits on this character iconic, iconic. She

583
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: There is a Bettel passing scene where Canada's Burger threatens

584
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: to kill Sandra b it is. It's great, one of

585
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: my favorite passes of the entire podcast. She was like,

586
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: this is my thing and if you suck it up,

587
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: I will murder you with my hands. And we've graduated

588
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: from the she's all that you should kill yourself to

589
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: this congeniality I will kill you. Let's get rid of

590
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: the middleman. I will kill you makes so much more active. Yes, yes, yes, yes, um.

591
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: The main thing I wanted to say about her as

592
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: the female villain is that I feel like female villains

593
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: and I know they're exceptions to this role, but I

594
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: feel like it's more common that female villains are there

595
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: in the story when the protagonist is also a woman,

596
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: as if to say, oh, a woman couldn't defeat a

597
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: male hero, but if she's matched up, right, But if

598
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: she's set up against a woman, then we as the

599
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: audience have an easier time believing that she could pose

600
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,479
Speaker 1: a threat to the female hero. That's really I've never

601
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: thought of that, but that I mean, if you just

602
00:37:52,080 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: do a cursory review of princess movies, versus Yep, I'm

603
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: convinced we've got half of an example, and yeah, filling

604
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: the rest of the blanks. She's right, No, that's a

605
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: great point. And and there's that I don't know. The

606
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: her character is challenging because you are you're given more

607
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: context for her character than you are given for most

608
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: people in the entire movie where you find out that

609
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: she was the runner up twenty five years ago, and

610
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 1: it's still very mad about it, to the point where

611
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: she's sabotaging, she wants to blow up someone's head a

612
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: quarter century later about it. The bitterness attributed to her character,

613
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: I feel like, is almost speaking to your point. A

614
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: little bit is something commonly attributed to older female characters,

615
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: where in a movie with like a younger protagonist, if

616
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: they are older women around them, they either serve as

617
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 1: like a mother a nurturing role, or if they're the villain,

618
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: they're bitter about something that happened when they were younger,

619
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: and they take out that bitterness by punishing or for instance,

620
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: blowing the head up of someone younger than which is

621
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: frustrated because it's like having Candice Bergen's character in this

622
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: movie is amazing and it kind of it's it's kind

623
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: of a waste in some ways, and a lazy writing

624
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: choice to make like an age is like, oh, she's

625
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: bitter because she's not, you know, a beautiful twenty five

626
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: year old anymore, and because that's just such a common

627
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: thing attributed to older female characters ever, as they're just

628
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: pissed that they're not so funk that her sound looks

629
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: like a turtle. Also, but yeah, I don't know, I

630
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: liked I liked her. I liked that at least you

631
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: she's not based. I'm just holding this nipple and I

632
00:39:52,920 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: wanted to feel I'm gonna slither it down my throat. Okay, um,

633
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: I like that. At least the writers gave enough consideration

634
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: to that character to give her a backstory, because otherwise

635
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: it would just be like a woman is crazy for

636
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: no reason. So at least we get context. But the

637
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: context is kind of lazy writing as well. So he

638
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: way to like fake a bunch of serial killer notes,

639
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: so skills. She also appears to be like good at

640
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: her job of being in charge of the pageant. It

641
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: seems very successful, and but also she wants to blow

642
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: people up and that's bad and so it's hard Michael

643
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: Caine also has a backstory where he I mean, it's

644
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: sort of he's just like, I won't the champion, Like

645
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: he's treating her kind of like Sea Biscuit. But also

646
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: also we're like rooting for him. I don't know, right,

647
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: can we? So let's talk about the makeover the make right,

648
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 1: So Vick Michael Caine takes one look at Heart, knowing

649
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: that he's going to have to make her over, but

650
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't. He's like, if you're crazy, Heart, I quit

651
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: right here and now. Similar thing happens in Princess Diaries,

652
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: like it's more fun the way it offense and Princess Diaries.

653
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: If we've got to have a makeover scene for me,

654
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: I go Princess Diaries every time. It's frustrating. Okay, this

655
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: is something that is perhaps deeply rooted in my psyche.

656
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: Every time I see the reveal on the makeover scene,

657
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: I still am like, Wow, she's so pretty, and then

658
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: I feel horrible about myself. But the reveal shot is

659
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: it bangs. I don't know, like it's it's it's weird.

660
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: It's like, I guess that's just like the core of

661
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: our podcast too. It's just like, oh, I that I

662
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: feel this way, but at least I understand why. But

663
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: that reveal shot to Mustang Sally, Holy shit, it's very rewarding.

664
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: But also I know, I know it. For this movie,

665
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: the makeover is justified based on the context of the story, right,

666
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: Although could you argue why do beauty pageants exist in

667
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 1: the first place and why is the expectation for women

668
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: to be so beautiful? But that's not the question this

669
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: movie is asking, right. Yeah, so at least she's getting

670
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: a makeover to be able to participate in a beauty pageant.

671
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: Sorry scholarship pro scholarship, as we say sorry, So I

672
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: don't know. It's kind of a cut and dry standard

673
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: makeover sne where she has a middle part and then

674
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: she doesn't. She's she's been Sandra Book the whole time.

675
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: The reason she has the makeover is I would argue

676
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: that she's it's like one of those not like the

677
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: other girls women where you know, she choose with her

678
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: mouth open, she doesn't care about her hair, she doesn't

679
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: you know, she's clumsy. She wears gender neutral clothing most

680
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: of the time. Here's where we start to pull from

681
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: the Liz Lemon Book of Feminism that I find very

682
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: troubling of like, let's present what no one can deny

683
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: is a very conventionally attractive woman and just call her

684
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: ugly over and over and just hope we can gaslight

685
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: our own audience into being like, yeah, Tina Fey looks

686
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 1: like shit and like just by I don't know that's

687
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: something this movie does that on one hand, you never

688
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 1: see women eat food in movies, and that is something

689
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: that it's like, at least we see her eating like

690
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: a normal person would, but she's dipping steak into spaghetti.

691
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. Well, I guess this comes down to a lifestyle,

692
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 1: not just shame that I've dipped things and other things

693
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: that shouldn't have been dipped in. Perhaps I've I've dipped

694
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: many things same, but I'll to say it's it's weird

695
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: because it's like you do get to see someone eat

696
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 1: like a human being, and when food is taken from

697
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: her and beauty pattern food is given to her, the

698
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,959
Speaker 1: movie is commenting on it and like, this is fucked up.

699
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: It doesn't to me suggest and this is what women

700
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: should do. Like it. She's upset about it, she's annoyed

701
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: with it, she doesn't want to do it. But on

702
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's like she's Sandra Bullock. Like it's

703
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: annoying and frustrating in movies to try to gasolate your

704
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: audience at the top of a movie and be like,

705
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: she looks horrible and look, she's such a slob. She's

706
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: called a slob over and over and over, and it's like, no,

707
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: she's Sandra Bullock just like every time. It's like, you

708
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: can't just give Tina Fee a cheese stick and call

709
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: it a day. You can't like it's that is just

710
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: a half hearted attempt at I don't know, I don't

711
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: like it. Side side Caitlin, Yeah, I'm tired. Can we

712
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: take a break, Let's just take a quick break. Yeah.

713
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: I think the makeover is justified narratively, unlike it is

714
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: in other movies. It's not just like, well, men don't

715
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: enjoy you, so but all the fix it. But again

716
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: I have to go. But and maybe this is, you know,

717
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: opening up the conversation to beauty pageants and because it

718
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: is the makeup over justified whenever we consider I don't

719
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: know where I land on this because on one hand,

720
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, your body, your choice, if you want to

721
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: participate in a beauty pageant like you do you, but

722
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: also because women have historically only been valued for their appearance,

723
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: and then things like you know America and other beauty

724
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: pageants just reinforce that and have historically been very racist,

725
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 1: which we can also touch on. But because like there's

726
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: no Mr America or is there. I don't know, but

727
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: I don't think so, not that we know of there. Yeah,

728
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: that's that's a weird I don't know, that's tricky. I've

729
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: I would feel weird coming down on either side of

730
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: that argument, because it's like, if it's what you want

731
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: to do and you feel good and empowered and comfortable

732
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: with everything that's happening, great, but there are, like you

733
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: were saying, like very clear examples of those being harmful

734
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: to the women participating in them and certainly to like

735
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: young women and like young boys, seeing that this is

736
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: how we present women and this is what you're supposed

737
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: to look like, slash, this is what you're supposed to

738
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: be attracted to. So a lot just reinforces that like

739
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: standard of beauty that we need to dismantle, am I right?

740
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: But also like a piece so there's sort of you know,

741
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: but I mean Grazie Heart does have a lot of

742
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: opinions on beauty pageants, which she comes around on by

743
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: the end, but in the beginning she's like, it's like

744
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: feminism never happened, Like any woman that would want to

745
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: participate in a beauty pageant is catering to a misogynistic

746
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: neanderthal mentality. I wish she like at the end of

747
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: the movie was like, well, there's arguments to be made

748
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 1: either way, but she's like, pageants are awesome, and you're like, oh, okay,

749
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, And then like Benjamin Brott over

750
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: here is like, hey, you can get scholarship money, you

751
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: can see the world. He's very pro pageant, so wonder why,

752
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: but also like, great, if you can get scholarships, why

753
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: do you need to prove that you look fuckable in

754
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: a bathing suit too? You know, the classic question again,

755
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, but the way the

756
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: story explores that, although I do wish that she didn't

757
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: just the movie's conclusion isn't like pageants good, keep them going,

758
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: Like yeah, that seems kind of like a Kappa, but

759
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 1: we you know, the story takes extra care to like

760
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: get to know at least five of the contestants and

761
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: see how they interact with each other and learn at

762
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: least a little bit about each of them. You learn

763
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: most about Rhode Island, but there's I'm trying to remember

764
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: the states New York, California, Texas. Those are you think

765
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: the four main and plus Rhode Island and then Gracie's

766
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: New Jersey. But like, you see them interact and they're

767
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: very often not talking about men. They're talking about their backgrounds.

768
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: They're talking about what they're like, plans or strategies are

769
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: in the competition. They give each other advice, they exchange

770
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: gossip while drunk and covered in paint. They do a

771
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. And so by the end, when like

772
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: the characters we know make the top ten, you're happy

773
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: for them, which seems like kind of hard to do

774
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: and a story with so many different characters, I appreciated

775
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: that they went out of the way to show that

776
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: they were people that wanted to be there and felt

777
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: empowered by being there. Is that a weird cop out

778
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: in its way? Probably, But also we get to know

779
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: them and that's nice. Yeah, And the story could have

780
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: easily not gone in that direction. It could have been,

781
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: like I could have been bitches. Yeah, and rather than

782
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: focusing on the like friendship that happens among them, it's

783
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: more focused on the like romantic relationship with which, by

784
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: the way, I also I just want to add how

785
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's character asks out Gracie because he says something like, hey,

786
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: before we get back to New Jersey, you get all

787
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: ugly again. Do you want to go out to dinner?

788
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: And then if we fuck after that's cool. Just still

789
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: be hot to me, like you're just like yikes. And

790
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: then then she's like yes, and then it's an early interaction.

791
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: It's not good right this movie. I don't know. I

792
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: love I love it. And then there's those parts. It's

793
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 1: a two other there's a there's some other parts. Uh

794
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: problematic thing. Sorry. There's a scene at the very beginning

795
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: whenever Heart is like in that restaurant. She's got like

796
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: the book with the camera in it, and she's like

797
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: trying to survey, like the people the woman with two asses.

798
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: A woman gets fat shamed. Uh. There's jokes that make

799
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: light of being deaf and being a mute. There's jokes

800
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: that make light of eating disorders. Uhh Yeah. There's a

801
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 1: very pointed comment from Gracie to Rhode Island, her best

802
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: friend at there, and she's allegedly shalling up to make

803
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: her feel better and brings pizza and beer, and then

804
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, all the women are like, you can't, we

805
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: don't eat that, and Gracey says something you canto like

806
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: who cares? Rodel was just going to throw it up anyways,

807
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: which is outting her eating disorder, and it's just like,

808
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,919
Speaker 1: oh God, we're supposed to like the protagonists, like what

809
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: the funk are you doing there? And in making light

810
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: of like what is a serious issue inside of that

811
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: community and for women in general. So yeah, funk. That

812
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: does not age well that joke. Nor does There's a

813
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: reference to Rainman, and then she like makes fun of

814
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: people with developmental disabilities. Weird Rainman reference, and that's got

815
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 1: Jurassic Park reference, so I guess that can stay whatever.

816
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: I like, there's a lot of it is. It's all

817
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: this little stuff that it's like, we don't lose anything

818
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: from the meaning of this movie by losing these like

819
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: shitty little interactions that could be replaced with other stuff. Right.

820
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: There's another one where the reason that she's able to

821
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: even enter into the contest because miss New Jersey was

822
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: discovered as working at porn films, So it's like shaming

823
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: people who work in the sex industry or working porn,

824
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: so which a lot of been again leverage to be

825
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: a criticism of the beauty pageant, but it isn't. It's

826
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: right for a joke. So it's a lot of like

827
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: early two thousand's era like problematic jokes that they weren't

828
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: thinking of. But we as sophisticated eighteen years later audiences,

829
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: we have never made a mistake or been wrong. Yeah. No,

830
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: I agree that that was another moment that you're just

831
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: like Jesus Christ. That's uh from people that were supposed

832
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: to like I love Rhode Island, and I love that

833
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: there's there's just like a range of different types of

834
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: women where the you know, Gracie's assumption at the beginning

835
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: is like every woman who participates in a beauty pageant

836
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 1: is a specific way, and then we see that there's

837
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: a lot of different types of people. Well, I argue

838
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: that it's sort of like half lazily written to state

839
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: that they're coming from, Yeah, the Texas girls like the Alamo,

840
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 1: You're like, all right, New York talks about a bagel

841
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: like you're just like, Okay, I guess there's a teacerent

842
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: amount of diversity among that like group though, So yeah,

843
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: so I mean there there is diversity in in the

844
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: group of women we get to know. Um, it seems

845
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: like the pageant majority, but the women we get to

846
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: know the best are still It wasn't yes because Gracie

847
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: and Rhode Island, but God love Rhode Island. That I

848
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: was just gonna ask, what's your favorite date? What's your

849
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: perfect day? She's such a dumbass. It's so sweet, but

850
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: but like in a in a very endearing I love her. Yeah,

851
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: she's she should be Miss Congeniality. Well she's misses. My

852
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: head didn't blow up, so she should be thrilled. Can

853
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: we talk about the scene where Miss Rhode Island talks

854
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: about her college professor attacking her. Yes, because can and

855
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 1: we will. So this is when Heart is coaxing information

856
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: out of let's not let her get up the hook.

857
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: She's actively trying to get people drunk for information. That's

858
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: very much her intention is Like, she doesn't quite rufy

859
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 1: her colleagues, but she is not as drunk as everyone

860
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: else on purpose. She also just comes out and says, hey,

861
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:41,479
Speaker 1: have you ever committed a crime? Who was credited? Her job?

862
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: Who was she? Kiano Reeves and point Break come on, Keiana.

863
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: Point Break literally goes into a Burger joints like I'm

864
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: in the FBI. This is my name, Like it's like compulsive.

865
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: He can't help it. So she's like, hey, is anything

866
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 1: like have you ever done anything bad? And then Cheryl

867
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: ms Rhode Island talks about how her college professor attacked her,

868
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: and then Heart says, did you report him? And she

869
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: said no, I never told anyone before, but this kind

870
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: of thing happens all the time. And then Heart says, no,

871
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't, and then we are like, yes, it does.

872
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: And then she talks about how there's like all these

873
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,479
Speaker 1: maneuvers that she could show you. She's of course talking

874
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: about sing sing. We got a lot of foreshadowing for

875
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: saying until it happens. That interaction is interesting where it

876
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: gets like percent of the way there for me, where

877
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: in my head Gracie's reaction to Cheryl telling her that

878
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 1: makes sense for that character because Gracie has been fighting

879
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,240
Speaker 1: people her whole life, so in her head that doesn't

880
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: happen because she is tough and aggressive and fights people off.

881
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,919
Speaker 1: There should have been something done inside of that same

882
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: scene to like you're saying to be like, no, that

883
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: does happen. And Gracie, as much as she is doing

884
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: a good thing in theory by teaching Cheryl how to

885
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: defend herself, is also like this happens all the time,

886
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: like putting the onus and the responsibility on the woman

887
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: to defend herself because there's no way around it. You're

888
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: gonna get attacked, so you have to learn how to

889
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: defend yourself, versus acknowledging that this shouldn't be happening, Like

890
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: That's all that would have taken for me for that

891
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: scene to work, is like I'm sorry that happened to you,

892
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: and acknowledging that that's a common thing, and then show

893
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: Cheryl how to kick someone's ask great, I shouldn't have

894
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: to teach you this. We should teach men not to attack.

895
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:42,720
Speaker 1: But here's saying, but in order to survive the world

896
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: as it's been set up so far, break someone's nose,

897
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: like fair, what do you have anything else? Most of

898
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: my stuff? I think in general, I really like Gracie.

899
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: I think that where her character lands is death. Definitely

900
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: frustrating where we are to assume she's keeping the makeover,

901
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: she's going to you know, take that change on permanently.

902
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: It's not until she gets her makeover that she's able

903
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: to find romantic love or has interest in romantic love

904
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: that we know of. And she ends in kind of

905
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: like a little bit too propageant, a little uncritical of like, yeah,

906
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,959
Speaker 1: so no one got blown up, so this system is

907
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: doing good. And then the last interaction between Gracie and

908
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: Miss morning Side was I don't know, like in theory,

909
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: that's a cathartic moment for Gracie because she gets to

910
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: clap back at Candice Bergen because Candasburgen says yeah, yeah,

911
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: and then Sandy says yes, and we're like, oh a callback.

912
00:57:55,160 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: But Cannisburgen is chaotic evil in this that character didn't

913
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: have to just be like pure evil. Like again, just

914
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: getting back to what we talked about of how those

915
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: characters are written. Is sort of satisfying to see her

916
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: sent off to jail, but it's also cheap to put

917
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: women against each other and then be like and now

918
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: you go to prison, you're bad. And it's not like

919
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: the system she was working with and was always bad, whatever,

920
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: it's a perfect movie. A couple of other things I

921
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: wanted to touch on. One of those more problematic components

922
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: of the movie is the constant idea that's presented that

923
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: people who identify as women need to be presenting as

924
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: more feminine, like just a constant thing. Like Michael Caine's

925
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: character says like, I've I've taken a woman without a

926
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: discernible trace of estrogen and turned her into a lady.

927
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: Benjamin Bratt's like always nagging her, being like, you look

928
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: like ship until you looked hot with that makeover, and

929
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: now I love you. Yeah, I mean, well that that's

930
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: kind of I feel like the fact that she decides

931
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: to keep the makeover kind of says it all in

932
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: terms of where the movie stands on that, and that's

933
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: that's a bad Just make us wash her hair and

934
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: not straighten it, and then it's like, weirdly that would

935
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: be progress. That's fucked. Yeah, I think that's those are

936
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: the main points that I had. Yeah, should we take

937
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: any see if anyone has any questions thoughts that we didn't, Yeah, Oh,

938
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: the question you asked, So the question was which actor

939
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: should have been placed with Alfred Molina Okay, well, we've

940
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,919
Speaker 1: got a lot of options. Do I think he could

941
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: have replaced the Chat I do. Do I think he

942
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: could have replaced Michael Caine? I do, but not quite.

943
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: Do I feel like he should have replaced Benjamin Bratt Absolutely.

944
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: I think if Alfred Molina is playing the Benjamin Bratt character,

945
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: they have to rewrite it right because they're like, people

946
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 1: are going to believe bad things coming out of Alfred

947
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: Blina's math. He is a sweet teddy bear who respects women,

948
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: and he's going to be doc Cock one day. We

949
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: can't disrespect him like this. I think he would he

950
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: should replace Benjamin Bratt. Final answer any other questions or thoughts, Alright,

951
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: you gotta, we gotta. They're like leave retired. Um, it

952
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: doesn't pass the Bectel test. It does a lot. There's

953
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: almost an entire scene that passes the Actel test from

954
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: what I could whenever all the contestants are being introduced

955
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: to each other when yes, and then there's also almost

956
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:40,919
Speaker 1: a whole scene between Cheryl and Gracie that you get

957
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,959
Speaker 1: significantly in there before before a man is brought up,

958
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 1: which is cool, and I think it's like a testament

959
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: again to like the story having a vested interest in

960
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: you getting to know who these women are, which is great. Yeah. Um.

961
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: And then there's of course the scene where Kathy morning

962
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: Side says, if you get in my way, I will

963
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: kill you kens Bergen who she is, given it her all,

964
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: I love it. I would pay her to threaten me.

965
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I think there's a couple others here,

966
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 1: and there's I mean, there's there's a bunch. Usually if

967
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: there's a scene with contestants, it passes at least once

968
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: inside of your average scene. If it's a scene with

969
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: Gracie and miss morning Side, usually it passes. It takes

970
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 1: a while because it takes it just takes Gracie a

971
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: while to get to the pageant. But once we get there,

972
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: it's relatively smooth sailing. If we're getting into it. Are

973
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: they usually talking about traditionally feminine things such as beauty pageants, makeup?

974
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: And yes, but you know the test is flawed. Also,

975
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: there's the whenever Benjamin Bratt's character is like, hey, we

976
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: suspect miss Rhode Island is a terrorist, go talk to

977
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,919
Speaker 1: her and get some information out of her. She's like, wait,

978
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: you want me to talk to And they're like yeah,

979
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: and she's like, what do I talk about? And they're

980
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: like leg waxings, fake orgasms, the inability of men to commit,

981
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: which is mostly what I talk about. It's like where

982
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: is the lie? So that was a funny joke, some

983
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: fun fun commentary, but like it shows that, like she

984
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: does not even understand the concept of a woman talking

985
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: to another woman. They play up the tomboy aspect to

986
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: so much. She's like, do you want me to beat

987
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 1: it out of her? Like what? We have seen her

988
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 1: kick Benjamin Brad's ass multiple times at that point, so

989
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 1: it does seem to be their friendship dynamic. Yeah, yeah,

990
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 1: she's just rowdy. Yeah. Shall we rate the movie? Yeah

991
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 1: on our five nipple scale? Yeah, Okay, what do you

992
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: think I would say? I think I'm going to give

993
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 1: it a three. Okay, you can go higher if you want,

994
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 1: But I feel I think there's there's too many kind

995
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 1: of problematic things that don't ange well for me to

996
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: go higher. But because it's Gracie Hart who is driving

997
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: the narrative, she I don't think at any point has

998
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: to be saved by a man. She's always saving herself.

999
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: She's always advocating for herself and standing up for herself,

1000
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 1: defending herself. Um oh, one thing we didn't say is

1001
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: that she is the only one who doesn't give up

1002
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: on the mission. All the men quit yah, and she stays. Right,

1003
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: it's her hunch that like keeps her in the game.

1004
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: And she's right. She's really good at her job. She's like, hey, everyone,

1005
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm really good at like decoding stuff. She's basically a hacker.

1006
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 1: She's hacking, so I'm biased sorts. So yeah, she's the

1007
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: one who does everything. She staves the day at the end.

1008
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 1: But as we discuss, there's you know, problematic things casual

1009
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: home phobia. The romance thing is big where we're like, yeah,

1010
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 1: we're supposed to root for her to end up with

1011
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: this guy who thinks she's ugly as hell until she

1012
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: gets a very painful procedure done. He's constantly nagging her,

1013
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: and he also like it's like I need to watch

1014
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: these things happen to you. Like he's there for her

1015
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: various waxing. It's like, leave. I think he took the

1016
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: day off to do that. You there could have been

1017
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 1: an opportunity to comment more on like the standards of

1018
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: beauty that society has decided or a thing, but it

1019
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of misses out on some of that. It does

1020
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: provide some commentary, but I think it misses on other

1021
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: opportunities and definitely doesn't go all the way. Yeah, So

1022
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let land in the three and I'm gonna

1023
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: give one to Gracie Hart, I'm going to give one

1024
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 1: to Candice, and i will give my final nipple to

1025
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: the bare nipple that we do see of Benjamin Bratt's

1026
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 1: I am going to go three and they have. Uh

1027
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: maybe three quarters four feels wrong for some reasons, but

1028
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: as close to a four as I can get without

1029
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: it be three and quarters. Three and three quarters works

1030
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: for me. Like you were saying, there are a lot

1031
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 1: of missed opportunities and just kind of general lazy y

1032
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: two K writing on the only woman we see who's

1033
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: over the age of forty is written to be very

1034
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: bitter and villainous. There was an opportunity to incorporate women

1035
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: of color in a more meaningful way, of like, even

1036
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: though it is a diverse group of women, we get

1037
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: to know, the three primary women we see and get

1038
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: to know well are still white ladies. But in general,

1039
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it does well in terms of

1040
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: it would have been very easy, like we were saying earlier,

1041
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: to make the stickle at the beauty pageant that the

1042
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: women were mean. And you know, that is more Gracie's

1043
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: obstacle to overcome. You know, she dislikes women, and she's

1044
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: right to at least the obstacle is that she's wrong

1045
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: and she cares about these women. And and you know

1046
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: at the end of the movie where she's late because

1047
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 1: she's in the FBI, etcetera, and they help her with

1048
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 1: her makeup and they get her ready, and that's like

1049
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: a nice moment, and I just choked up. Anyways, I

1050
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: love this movie. I think it's and and and it

1051
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 1: taught me how to sing. And Gracie is a I think,

1052
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: a great effective character whose arc works, although I wish

1053
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 1: she didn't end on the side of like and now

1054
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,479
Speaker 1: I learned that beauty pageants are awesome and being hot

1055
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: is cool. By oh and now I'm armed and fabulous.

1056
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna give it three and three quarters, okay

1057
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: to to Gracie, one to New York and then the

1058
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: remainder to Tina, her girlfriend. Yeah, the sequel we're all

1059
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: waiting for. Also, Sandra Bullock comedic Powerhouse. The pratt falls

1060
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 1: in this movie, the brat falls. They Okay, I deserved there.

1061
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: She prat falls during a dramatic scene. It's great. She's

1062
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: at the beginning where she's like upset and at her

1063
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: apartment she's like the punchy bag. I got so much rage.

1064
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: But she's still prat falls because she's Sandra Bullock and

1065
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: she's committed to who she is. I want Sandra Bullock

1066
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: and Hillary Duff to prat fall off. Who is the

1067
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: true master? Yeah, well I think I think that's our show. Yeah,

1068
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for so much for coming. Thanks

1069
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: to Emissaries, huge, thank you Laura, Sam and Alias for

1070
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: having us here at Emissary Listeners. If you're ever in DC,

1071
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:01,919
Speaker 1: you come check this place out. Is this really cool?

1072
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: Like it's a cafe, it's a bar, it's everything. It's

1073
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: there's just good for nipples. See what happens delicious jello nipples.

1074
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 1: I'm drunk. There's too many of these nimes. Thanks again

1075
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,839
Speaker 1: to Emissary and everyone here, and thanks to you audience

1076
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 1: for coming. Enjoying the rest to night. That's mere