WEBVTT - STEPHEN A. SMITH 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:06.800 Stephen A Smith. We had a thoughtful, insightful, powerful conversation, 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:09.640 and I wasn't gonna come at him with any debates, 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.560 and I wasn't looking for hot takes on hot topics. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:16.959 Stephen A gets very well paid to do that superbly 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:20.320 on all sorts of platforms. First take on ESPN, of course, 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.079 and stephen A's World and ESPN plus Sports Center, NBA 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.560 and boxing coverage, and more than nine point two million 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.840 followers between his Twitter and Instagram. I wanted to talk 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:34.319 to him about what sets him apart, what's gotten him 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.400 to the top, the influence of five strong women in 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:41.920 his life. He was very open about his challenges and setbacks, 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:47.000 about loss and his mortality, recovered all sorts of stuff, 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:52.120 including his excellent acting on General Hospital and his big 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:56.040 plans for the future. Well, stephen A, you are an 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.200 extremely busy man. I am grateful for you making some time. 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:01.120 I hope you can enjoy this. This is interesting for 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.560 me because we've never really had a real conversation. I 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.720 think we've been in the same building a few times 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.640 it fights or NBA games. We've we've I've at least 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.360 I've admired you from Afar for a long time, but 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:14.800 this will be the first ever conversation. We've had no 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.960 pre interview, so there's no safety that here we go. PLEA, 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.399 the pleasures all my man. You've done great, great work 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.600 for us throughout the years, and ESPN wouldn't be what 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.680 it is and I wouldn't be where I am if 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.319 it were not for people like you. So when you've 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:28.840 made the request for me to come on, I was 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.920 happy to do so. I might edit out the compliments. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:38.600 I usually do that. But besides your obvious genius as 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.959 a communicator and your thoughtfulness as a commentator, a couple 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.600 of things I remire about you is is your resilience. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:45.840 You've been knocked down a few times, really from the 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.360 start of your life, but certainly throughout your career, and 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.000 you are a risk taker professionally, which I really appreciate. 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.400 Let's let's start with their resilience. Man, how many times 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.160 in your life or your career do you think you've 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.120 been knocked down and in the in the view was 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:06.680 of other people? Finished? Man, I got left back in 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.639 fourth grade from having a first grade reading level that 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.119 was being knockdown. Uh, humiliated by the whole neighborhood who 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.160 was aware that I got left back and I had 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.880 a reading deficiency, I had dyslexia. Um, even though that's 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.000 what we didn't know that at the time that it 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.359 actually happened in the seventies. So that's a knockdown. Um, 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.239 not making the basketball team uh my junior year in 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.760 high school and way having to wait until my senior 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.000 year and then I made it. But being knocked down 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:40.040 my junior year, um, you know, being in college, cracking 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.040 my kneecap in half playing for Clarence Big House games. Uh, 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.440 and ultimately having a forfeit my scholarship to come back 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.040 home to rehab because it was a division juke program 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.000 and my mother's insurance would not cover me unless I 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.760 came home to New York and not staying North Carolina. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.120 That was a huge knockdown, um, you know. And being 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.280 let go by ESPN in uh two thousand and nine 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.680 over a contract dispute. That was a huge letdown. So 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.960 you know, I would tell you, by and large about 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.000 five or six times I've been knocked down where you know, 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.920 people thought I was finished quite frankly, getting canceled in 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.040 two thousand and seven, even though I had done three 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.880 hundred and twenty seven shows and conducted over seven hundred 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.440 and eighty interviews in that span. Um it was still 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.480 considered a failure. That was definitely being knockdown with people 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.839 wondering where my career is going. Uh So I would 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.520 tell you about five or six strong times where people 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.280 thought I was finished. That's about right. Yeah, the story 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:46.440 is definitely one of comebacks. You mentioned the ESPN situation. 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:50.000 I mean clearly at that time they didn't see the 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.600 value and you the eventually have showed the company and 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.480 then something it's a contract dispute I've heard you describe, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.880 but you know you came back. First of all, I 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.480 want to ask where were you emotionally and mentally at 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:02.160 that point when you're sort of on the streets after 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.240 having a budding career and having a visible position. I 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.560 was devastated, first of all. I felt like, um, I 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.200 did not deserve to lose my job, to lose the show. Sure, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.840 but I was on NBA shoot Around at the time 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.159 before it was called NBA Countdown, UM I was hosting. 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.880 Quite frankly, UM I was I was, you know, an 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.960 NBA analyst and inside of a sports center. Um I 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.159 was doing a radio show as well, and for me 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.880 to wake up one day and after having four jobs 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.159 and having absolutely nothing, Um, I really felt like I 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.239 got screwed over and I felt like it was grossly 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.960 unfair and I played the role of victims. But that 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.279 only lasted for about eight hours. And then my mother 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.440 got rested us soul looked at me and I'll never forget, 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.760 And I'm writing a memoir. I've got my book with 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.599 Simon and Shuster coming out next January, and I tell 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:59.599 a story about how my mother brought me up a 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.119 trade of food because I went over to her house 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.240 this language in her house and didn't go to my house, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:07.560 went back in the bunk bed that I grew up 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:09.960 in all of this stuff that just laid there for 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.480 a couple of days. And then she came to me 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.520 one day and handed me a plate of food and 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.040 on the plate, on the tray with the food was 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.920 a mirror, one of them handheld mirrors. And I said, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.400 what is this for? She said, that's for you to 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.279 take a look at yourself, where you feel when you 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.240 start ready, when you're ready to stop, to the surf 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.000 for yourself. She said, I'm quite sure it wasn't all 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.520 their fault. When did you look at you? She said, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.200 you're my son? How did I raise you? You know this? 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.560 You aren't innocent in all of this. And when she 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.440 made me do that, I was forced to reflect what 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.080 my attitude was like, the kind of approach that I 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:52.720 took towards work, particularly my superiors, my supervisors. What kind 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.400 of attitude did I have? How did I speak to them? 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.640 How enthusiastic was I about work? Um? Was I too argumentative? 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.599 Did I challenge every little thing that I not picked? 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.039 My battles? You start thinking about all of those things, 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.840 and when you reflected on those things, when I reflected 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.840 on those things, I realized I was more to blame 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.840 than they were. And because I had more culpability on 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.920 my shoulders and in my heart than they did, I 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.200 eradicated any blame in their direction, regardless of what they 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.640 may have done. I put it all on me because 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:28.960 since I was able to point to a multitude of 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.400 things that I was doing that I would not advise 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.799 any employee to do. I just said, I'm never gonna 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.320 get beyond this unless I own all of it. And 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.880 that's what I did. Moms are filled with wisdom, and 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:45.560 I want to circle back to her a little bit later. 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.200 But that's a rare place to arrive at, Steven. I 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:53.479 gotta tell you, people take things very personally. It's hard 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.240 not to get wounded. Very few people can arrive at 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.440 a place to say I had more to do with 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:00.840 that sat back than anybody else. But you did to 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.719 ride back in the business with a place of wisdom. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.200 I think realizing from what you said about this that 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.840 it's not personal, it is business. It's far less about 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.480 loyalty than it is about utility. What can you do 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.560 for me now and going forward, not not what you 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.480 did in the past. What can you do now? And 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.440 to a company you are an asset or you're not 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.600 where you are, but you you You come back like 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.360 hardened by that experience. But I think a lot wiser 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:29.760 about what can be a pretty murky business at times, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.400 no question about it. And I think that you know 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.720 you able to reflect on a certain things, like for example, 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.520 you know I would see guys like i'd see you 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.520 colling college football games. I see guys calling Monday and football. 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.120 I see guys do a lot of different things and 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.120 I'm like, no, I can't do that. I know better, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.000 I know my position. But I can be in this 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.600 position where I can help generate money for the company 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.720 if you just gave me the opportunity. Why can't I 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.520 have that opportunity. Well, bosses make decision all the time, 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.760 and everybody's coming to them thinking that they could do something, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.240 and you have to make a decision as to what 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.120 you think is better. So they have a right to 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.400 make those decisions because they're in those positions. And then 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:07.080 the other thing was I looked at myself and I said, Okay, 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.280 what was my definition of popularity? People screaming my name 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.280 in the streets, people saying hey Stephen, Hey, blah blah 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:17.440 blah blah blah. Well, guess what that can't necessarily be monetized. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.640 What's your ratings? What kind of revenue do you bring 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.960 into the company or to a particular show, add sales, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.280 things of that nature. Q scores, all of these other 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:29.320 things that we're supposed to pay attention to that validate 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.400 I value to the people who actually make these decisions, 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.760 so they could use that data to basically decipher what 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:38.880 you're worth and what you're not. I paid no attention 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.080 to any of that stuff. And so my mother would 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.160 say to me once I ultimately confessed to her that 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.560 that was the case, she said, well, if you don't 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.840 know your value, who are you to tell them what 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.319 your value is? And I had no answer. I had 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.400 no answer. And so when I looked at it from 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.960 that perspective, I said, I put them in a position 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:02.559 of strength because I'm relying on my emotional feelings to 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.440 somewhat try and dictate what they should do when it's 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.400 their job not to make emotional decisions. They're supposed to 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.320 use other means to decipher and determine your value. And 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.720 when the moment I realized that, it was an epiphany 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:22.680 that was a career altering because Chris, from that day forward, 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.200 I detached emotions from business and I was able to 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.200 look at something to say, Okay, we're supposed to be 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.360 in the money making business. Was supposed to be in 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.840 the ratings and revenue business. Here's what I bring to 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:40.400 the table. And I've been fixated or making sure I understood, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.000 at least to some degree, what my value was. From 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.400 that day and the day that happened, I depersonalized everything. 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.120 It made me a better professional, and it made me 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.040 a better man and a better adult. And that is 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:58.040 why I'm here, I'm where I am today. We're in 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.320 the same business, same employer, but I I see our 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.480 roles is fundamentally different. I mean your job as I 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.520 see it. Maybe you disagree, if so, straighten me out. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.800 But to to deliver your insight, your opinions, it's about 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:14.200 you and your vibe and directing and dominating debates. I 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.560 document events I did. I did to show her opinions matter. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.560 And you were expected to throw your two cents in 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.400 on game, David, as you as you call a game. 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.520 It's about others. It's about documenting what's going on. You 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.680 certainly put your spin on it. Does the idea of 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.960 doing that bore you because it doesn't let you be 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.040 you and and express your thoughts. It doesn't bore me. 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.520 It's just that for me, the Chris Fowlers of the 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:44.880 world are un rarefied. Here you're able to document and 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.400 and I mean this complimentary, but it's for you, and 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:49.719 it's for people in your position. You've earned the right 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.600 to be where you are, and so as a result, 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:54.800 there's a comfort that comes along with it. You go 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.520 to a negotiating table, you are Chris Fowl and this 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.160 is what you've done and you've done it on an 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.520 exceptional level to a point where you're not devalue by 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.520 the company that you work for or the companies that 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:13.200 are in pursuit of your services. Most folks that have 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:18.200 the role of documenting and chronicling what's transpiring, to some 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:23.040 degree their devalued because not enough attention is paid from 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.120 a monetary standpoint to what they can bring to the table. 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.360 Whereas when you're giving your opinions. In my case, I 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.280 did that on a newspaper level. I did chronicle, I 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.800 did document I was a beat writer for many years, 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.840 and stuff like that. That never leaves me. I don't 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:41.800 think it's one of the other. With what I do. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.680 I think at the end of the day, my opinion, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.400 my perspective is expected, but also the responsibility that I 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.319 have to pay attention to what's being documented the chronicles, 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.880 so I can give a reference point as to why 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.240 my perspective is what it is. People who just go 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.000 out there, I want to run them out, have no sources, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:06.520 have no context, have no just have no foundation for 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.439 which they from which they gathered the information. But they 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.840 just want to give opinions. No that you've got some 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.000 people who are doing that, but they're not very successful 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.120 at this. The people who are successful at this are people, 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.120 for the most part, that have been journalists that had 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.520 a responsibility at one time or another to chronicle and 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.880 and document things and in document events and what have you, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.840 and it's never left them. They hold onto it. So 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.960 what they do is they take what Chris Fawala and 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.600 others do, the Kirk curve stryts to the world and others, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.760 and they say, okay, based on what they're saying and 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.160 what I'm seeing and what my sources might tell me 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.719 and what information I may have gathered. This is what 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.720 I deduce as opposed to just being irresponsible and just 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.920 spewing out something just because you want to. Every dude 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.640 in the street thinks they can be you, and they 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.760 don't have the insight, they don't have the background, they 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.959 don't have the thoughtfulness, they don't even have a platform 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.080 except when that they create. But they all think that 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.280 they can be a pundit and they have no idea 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:07.760 what goes into it. As I've always appreciated that you 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.920 bring many different perspectives to it and a lot of 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.680 accumulated wisdom. The risk ticking man. He actually goes back 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.880 as I understand that even before you were getting paid 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:19.960 to be a print journalist, because at Winston Salem State 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.680 where you played hoops for for Clarence Big House Games, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.240 he mentioned him. He's a he's a Hall of famer 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.240 one more than games. He was a part of Winston 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.160 Sailing for almost a half century and you, before you 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.240 bust your kneecap, were on that team, and you wrote 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:37.280 an article advising him to retire. Now you gotta be 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.920 the only active college athlete to ever go write an 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.000 article telling a legendary coach he's playing for to retire. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.440 You understand that it's a it's a club of one 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:50.320 probably that's done that and gotten away with it. Well, listen, um, 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.880 I loved you. Know. I didn't have the greatest relationship 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.240 with my father, and Clarence Big House Games was like 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.920 a father to me. And I knew that he was 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.200 having health issues. And one time we were on the 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.040 sidelines and he had a patch over his eye and 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.160 he was very shaking, and I got very worried about him, 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.520 and my teammates got very worried about him. So I 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.880 was writing for the school newspaper and he and I 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.560 talked all the time. And while we were talking, I 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.320 said to him, this is what I noticed. What you're 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.000 gonna do about it? And in his acerbic, you know, 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.920 truculent kind of way, he was like, maya damn business, 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.480 you know. And you know, I said to him, you 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.760 need to take care of this and basketball can't be 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.800 the priority when your health is an issue. Man, you 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.040 might need to walk away from this. And he said 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.120 a nephew, man, Yeah, I'm saying I'm not doing anything 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.880 like that. And I said, well, if you don't do it, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.000 I'm gonna write about it. Since you're so proud of 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.920 you want everybody that you don't you want to give it, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:51.240 then you don't want to give it them, you want 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.800 to just shove it aside. I'm gonna write about it. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.000 And he said go ahead, And so I did it. 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.680 And when I did it, uh, you had a bunch 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.920 of people that obviously had a real big problem with me, 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.360 including the chancellor of the university who wanted to be 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.080 thrown off campus from what I was told, and Coach 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:15.560 Gaines himself intervened and said, leave him alone. He wants 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.600 to be a journalist. He told me exactly what he 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.640 was doing. He told me why beforehand, and I gave 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.920 him the okay to go ahead and do it. Leave 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.960 him alone. And that's what happened. A lot of people 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.480 didn't know that coach Gains had given me the okay. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.160 They had no idea, But that's what happened. He was 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:35.680 a giant man in a lot of ways. Of course 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.360 knew him covering college basketball. But I find that that 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.760 story fascinating and it has a good ending. He did 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.360 retire a couple of years after that. But but uh, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.240 that's uh, that's ballsy, and it was it was it 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.840 was I guess you you were throwing a lifeline by him. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.480 You go to Philly, You're you're writing, you said, a 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.440 beat reporter and a columnist, very very tough sports town. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.120 The readers are tough. Uh, it's just a it's the 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.880 deep end of the pool. You had a setback though, right, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.400 You're you're a columnist, outspoken, you got political, and then 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.400 they said, uh, get back in your lane. We're gonna 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.360 make you a kind of a beat reporter, not a calumnist. Right, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.440 So had you had to take that and then rebuild it. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.880 You know what happened was that I had gotten quite 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.760 frankly with the ESPN two, and I was doing my 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.680 radio show in New York. Prior to that, I had 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.160 an agreement with Philadelphia just show back up once or 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.120 twice a week and so write a column and other 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.000 than that, we're good. And so what happened is is 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.080 that once I was doing that in New York, a 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.080 new regime came into the Philadelphia Inquirer. And obviously that 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.200 wasn't an agreement that they co signed. So they were 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:47.440 trying to get me to essentially, um give up my posts. 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.400 And I was like, no, without a Separence package, and 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.000 they was and and and and this this is one individual. 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:54.720 I never forget it, but I can't talk about it 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.400 from a legal perspective. But he looked me in my 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:02.200 face and he said, you've made enough money. And when 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:06.360 he said that to me, um, listen, I'm like, because 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:08.840 you know, I'm a black man, and I'm a proud 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.159 black man, and I don't think that everything is racist, 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.359 and I don't think everything is racism. And there's plenty 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.640 of black peaks people that I know that are wrong, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.560 and there's plenty of white folks that I know that 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.159 have been right. But in this case he was wrong 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.359 and he had nothing to do with the agreement that 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.560 was signed. And so when he said that to me, 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.400 basically that you made enough money, he wouldn't talk about 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.119 the Philoms inquired. He was talking about the money that 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.560 I was making an ESPN, which is none of his business. 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.199 And so for me, I was like, you know, in't 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.040 start or something. I'm not backing up. I'm not going anywhere. 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.399 So they tried all of those tactics ultimately and went 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.159 to arbitration, and I want the arbitration case. And I 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.080 was returning to my stature as a columnist before I 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.520 ultimately left the Philadelphia Inquirer to come back to ESPN. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.119 Little did he know the man who should remain nameless 0:17:55.119 --> 0:18:02.359 about it's money in you, hey, people act What you 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.720 do is taking a risk when you criticize people that 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:06.880 you know. I find a tricky to be friends with 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.040 college football coaches or even tennis players or coaches, because 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.479 you can be friendly ish. But it was hard for me, 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:15.159 not because I would be relucted to criticize them, but 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.080 they wouldn't like it, and they would be caught off 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.040 guard and surprised. You would you would come at them 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.280 and happen many times. I mean, you you thread a 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:26.280 line because you're both a pundit, the most accomplished pundit, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.720 but also an insider. And it's hard because insiders typically 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.159 you know, Schefter, Woach guys are brilliant at that, but 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.880 they're not giving opinions, just working sources. You do both 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:37.680 ends of it. It's it's does it feel like a 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:42.160 tight up sometimes? Oh, it's definitely a tight rope, especially now. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.199 But I don't have to do what Adam Schefter and 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.280 Adrian ward Garowski my Steam colleagues do. That's that's what 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.680 they do every day. I don't have to do that anymore. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.080 I just choose to be an insider because you've got 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.760 access to information. You've got access to information because you're 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.000 breaking bread with these figures. And then totally, if if, if, if, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.560 it's the thing to be said, you gotta say about them, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.399 and they know that. And so for me, I just 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.480 have a car in the loud that I lived by Chris. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.639 Your personal life is your business, stay out of the 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.720 police bloggers, and I got nothing to say. It's your 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.359 personal life is your story to tell unless you let 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:19.679 it get Unless something happens that you and the police bloggers. 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.560 That's public information and that changes everything or what you 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.080 do on the court to field, to play, that's my domain. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.120 What I mean by that is that that's what you're 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.640 putting out on display for the public to decipher and evaluate. 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.000 That would happen to be me. And so if you 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:38.960 go out on the court and you play like garbage, 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.160 I'm gonna say you play like ge But you play 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.040 up out and said, hey, James Harden, you played like 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.120 garbage against the Brooklyn Nets, a near right of the club. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.840 You're not afraid to sort of be the wiser uncle 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.639 to say, hey, check yourself. You've you've done out of 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.000 the past, you know, recreational where I want to use 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.200 his rampant and pro sports. You've taken a strong stance 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.280 against that. Yeah, absolutely, every understand something. I often use 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.840 this phrase. We don't have we don't have things given 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.520 dinner together, we don't exchange Christmas gifts. I mean, the 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.080 fact of the matter is is that I have a 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:09.960 job to do and I'm gonna do it. I'm not 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.959 trying to screw you over and I'm not trying to 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:14.959 bury you. I'm not trying to do anything. But I'm 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.199 chronicling what's transpiring and I'm disseminating that message to the masses, 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:20.840 and I have an obligation to do that. Now, we 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.480 can be friendly with one another so long as you 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.480 understand that. If you don't understand that, then we don't 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.560 have to be friendly at all. We certainly don't have 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.879 to be enemies. But I'm going to do my job. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.000 That is my job, and you know that coming. I mean, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.200 from day one, the first minute, we make sure we understand. 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.320 I make sure folks understand this is what my job is, 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.320 and this is exactly what I am going to do. 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.080