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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And George Santos's campaign has refunded more

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Speaker 1: money than it's raised. L By the way, would like

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Speaker 1: to add that George Santos tweeted yesterday that Kellyan was

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Speaker 1: right about me. Oh I bet she was. And I

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Speaker 1: would like to say rent free in Kelly in Conway's head.

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Speaker 1: That's where I live. We have a star studded show

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Speaker 1: for you today. Congresswoman Mikey Cheryl updates us on the

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Speaker 1: chaos in the House as the GOP props up. Congressman

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Speaker 1: Jim Jordan Ben We'll talk to the Atlantics and Applebaum

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Speaker 1: about the rare good news coming out of Poland's recent election.

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Speaker 1: But first we have the host of the new podcast,

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Speaker 1: Contempt of Court, The Nation's Ellie Mastaal. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Ali, Hey, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I am very excited to have you here because I'm

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Speaker 1: a super fan, and also because we have these conversations

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Speaker 1: and sometimes I think about them months and months later,

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Speaker 1: which is usually like I have a brain, like I

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Speaker 1: said so, and usually everything just goes right in and out,

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Speaker 1: but for you, for some reason, the last time we talked,

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Speaker 1: you told me so much stuff that sort of like

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Speaker 1: permeated and was kind of going around my brain for

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Speaker 1: months and months.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of you Ever read the Greek myth

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Speaker 2: of Cassandra, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you feel you're a Cassandra.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a bit like I feel like Apollo actually

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Speaker 2: an assaulted me and now I am cursed to know exactly

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Speaker 2: what the Supreme Court is gonna do, but has some

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Speaker 2: difficulty getting, you know, especially the Democrats in Congress and

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Speaker 2: running for office, to realize just how terribly screwed we

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Speaker 2: are when it comes to the six Conservatives currently ruling

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Speaker 2: the rest of the country.

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Speaker 1: There are new cases this season, season two of the

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Speaker 1: real Supreme Court justices of the Trump administration. I feel

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Speaker 1: like the shit they did last season was like almost

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Speaker 1: like now they're just taking it a little further.

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Speaker 2: Well, the way that I would put it is this,

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court over the past two years has completed

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Speaker 2: its generational goals.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they wanted to end reproductive rights and send women

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Speaker 2: back to second class. That is, they've done that. They've

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Speaker 2: wanted to end affirmative action and make colleges and universities

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Speaker 2: safe for mediocre white children. They've done that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Dianu. As my people say, from.

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Speaker 2: Now, we're in the kind of spiking the football portion

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Speaker 2: of the thing where they're not doing things that they

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Speaker 2: have spent a generation doing, yes, saying that they were

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Speaker 2: going to do. Now they're on their stretch goals extra credit.

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Speaker 1: So if you're a domestic abuser and want to have

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Speaker 1: a weapon, this Supreme Court is for you.

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Speaker 2: This is the time for you. One of the biggest

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Speaker 2: cases that they will hear later, I believe that scheduled

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Speaker 2: for November now. It's called US v. Raheemi. That is

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Speaker 2: a case where a person who was under a restraining order.

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Speaker 1: Raheemi, not a good guy, not a good husband, and

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Speaker 1: had you.

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Speaker 2: Know, not only a restraining order for abusing his ex girlfriend,

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Speaker 2: but was involved in multiple shootings over the course of

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Speaker 2: his criminal career, including I think most hilariously and frighteningly

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Speaker 2: shooting is gun into the air at a what a burger. Yes,

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Speaker 2: when his credit card was declined.

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Speaker 1: This is a person you should give more weapons to.

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Speaker 2: Right, So they took his guns away, which makes sense.

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Speaker 2: He said no, no, no, no, taking my guns away just

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Speaker 2: because I have a domestic violigions training order is a

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Speaker 2: violation of my Second Amendment rights. And the Fifth Circuit

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Speaker 2: Court of Appeals said, yes, yes it is. And there

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Speaker 2: was a concurrence from a judge named James Hoe, who

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Speaker 2: is my pick for probably the worst possible person running

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Speaker 2: to replace Cli Exladus, where he wrote a concurrence that

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Speaker 2: was basically like, yeah, restraining orders, that's women are shrews.

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Speaker 2: Just use for training orders to you know, as illegal,

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Speaker 2: he said, as a tactical advantage or spurned lovers.

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Speaker 1: Is this originalism?

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Speaker 2: This is the winning argument? Molly like, I'm laughing because

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Speaker 2: if you don't, you just cry cry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I just want you to explain to our listeners

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Speaker 1: the thing that they're doing now, which is this idea

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Speaker 1: that if the founders did not conceive of it, it

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Speaker 1: is not real.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the current Supreme Court president on guns comes

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Speaker 2: from ruin the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association,

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Speaker 2: which Clarence Thomas decided, you know, right after Dobbs, and

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Speaker 2: that says that if you have a gun regulation, it

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Speaker 2: must be sourced in a gun regulation that existed at

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Speaker 2: the time of the founding. In seventeen eighty seven.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, we're seventeen eighty seven when women were property

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Speaker 1: and right.

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Speaker 2: So it's yer old George or Washington. I'm not making

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Speaker 2: that up. If General George Washington and his merry band

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Speaker 2: didn't come up with the gun regulation, you can't have it.

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Speaker 2: If Lynn Manuel Miranda did not rap about it as

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Speaker 2: Alexander Hamilton, you cannot have a gun regulation. It is ridiculous,

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Speaker 2: right to say, just as many people will point out,

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Speaker 2: the simple march of technology suggests that we might need

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Speaker 2: different gun regulations than what we needed in seventeen eighty seven,

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Speaker 2: where it took you know, ninety eight seconds to reload

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Speaker 2: your super shop musket.

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Speaker 1: Again, I want to point out, we are laughing because

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Speaker 1: it keeps us from crying, because this is absolute and zanitay.

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Speaker 2: And that's where we are. And you know, quite frankly,

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Speaker 2: if we're if that's the standard, well you know what,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you something. They were not taking away

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Speaker 2: guns from domestic abusers in seventeen eighty seven.

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Speaker 1: Right, because domestic abuse was kind of just.

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Speaker 2: Merit, because domestic abuse was on a crime in seventeen

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Speaker 2: eighty ses, we'rever I said this before but let's remember

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Speaker 2: mental rape did not become a crime in all fifty

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Speaker 2: states until the seventies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it is unfucking believable, and this Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: is ready.

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Speaker 2: Look, I actually think still think there's a chance that

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court overturns the Fifth Circuit on Rahimi. I

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Speaker 2: don't think Raheemi is a completely lost cause yet for

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Speaker 2: two reasons. One, the president that you can take guns

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Speaker 2: away from domestic abusers is very long standing, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so Roberts doesn't like overturning long standing precedents.

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Speaker 1: Except when it comes to we're.

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Speaker 2: Talking about a woman's toho ha in which case.

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Speaker 1: Right, in which it's an open season, then.

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Speaker 2: It's open season, right, So that's somewhere. Number two, Remember,

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Speaker 2: a domestic violence of restraining order is a legal adjudication.

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Speaker 2: It's not a mere allegation. It's not the same as

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Speaker 2: an indictment or a charge. The law is not you've

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Speaker 2: been indicted, so you can't have a gun. You've had

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Speaker 2: a due process right. And so if they're saying that

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Speaker 2: after a legal adjudication, you cannot have a fundamental right

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Speaker 2: taken away, well, you know what they like to do.

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Speaker 2: They like to take fundamental rights away when they are

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Speaker 2: voting rights for people who have had legal adjudication against.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So let's talk about this. This is like, I

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Speaker 1: feel like Republicans' new favorite thing is taking away. It's

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Speaker 1: not their new, it's their favorite. It's a time honored

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Speaker 1: Republican tradition of taking away the voting rights of people

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Speaker 1: who probably aren't going to vote for you, right.

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Speaker 2: Because the only way that they can win. Republicans have

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Speaker 2: long unders that they can't win in a free and

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Speaker 2: fair election, Like if everybody who wants to vote does

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Speaker 2: vote and has their vote count it, Republicans can't win.

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Speaker 2: They're a minoritarian, sectarian regional party at this point. They

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Speaker 2: don't have massive popular appeal and they know that, and

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Speaker 2: so one of their key or should they electoral strategies

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Speaker 2: is to depress and make it difficult for people who

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Speaker 2: don't like them to vote against them. So that's kind

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Speaker 2: of a longstanding thing Republican party. What's kind of new

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Speaker 2: at the Supreme Corps ish at the Supreme Court is

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Speaker 2: there the Spring Court is one hundred percent all in

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Speaker 2: on it and is doing things to make it harder

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Speaker 2: for basically puts foot on the gas and allowed Republicans

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Speaker 2: to jerry mander away minority voting power in any state

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Speaker 2: that is controlled by Republicans. So we've already had an

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Speaker 2: oral argument in a case brought by the South Carolina

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Speaker 2: Chapter of the NAACP about South Carolina's District one. Now,

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Speaker 2: according to the Federal District Court, South Carolina's District one

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Speaker 2: is an unconstitutional racial jerrymander. They drew the district right

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Speaker 2: through the city of Charleston, and they basically took all

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Speaker 2: the black people that should have been in District one,

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Speaker 2: which right now is Nancy Mace's district.

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Speaker 1: The best you'll remember her from wearing a skin tight

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Speaker 1: T shirt within a on it for adulterer when she

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Speaker 1: was parading through Congress.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I only remember her as the person who could

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Speaker 2: not get through these spark notes on Nathaniel Hawk authorne

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Speaker 2: Scarlet letter right after the first PARAGRAPHIC, that's right, that's

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Speaker 2: District one in South Carolina. District six, which is the

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Speaker 2: other district that has part of Charleston, is Jim Clyburns DISTC. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which is already majority minority. And so what the Republicans

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Speaker 2: did is basically take all the remaining black people that

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Speaker 2: lived in District one and shoved them into Clyburn's district,

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Speaker 2: creating a kind of super black district for Clydeburn and

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Speaker 2: creating a very say white district for Nancy Mace.

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Speaker 1: Right, well, she needs it, man, because she's not great.

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Speaker 2: They said they were not doing this because of the

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Speaker 2: race of the voters they were moving. They said they

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Speaker 2: were doing a partisan jerrymander. They were only trying to

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Speaker 2: move Democrats out of Nancy Mace's district, not black people.

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Speaker 2: That's an important legal distinction because in twenty nineteen, John Roberts,

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Speaker 2: with the help of his conservative buddies, said that you

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Speaker 2: can politically jerrymander to your heart's content and the federal

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Speaker 2: courts can't stop you. He called political jerrymander is non

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Speaker 2: justicable by the Supreme Court, which basically means states do

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Speaker 2: whatever you want. But he said that in the twenty

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Speaker 2: nineteen a case is called Rucho be common Casts. He

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Speaker 2: said that racial jerry manners were still totally bad. Well, obviously,

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Speaker 2: and I said this in real time and functionally every

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Speaker 2: single day's sence. Functionally, that makes no sense because all

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Speaker 2: that's going to happen is that the people who are

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Speaker 2: being racist are going to say, no, no, no, we

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Speaker 2: were just being political.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: You know something about racists that I've learned in my

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Speaker 2: travels is that they don't often say, hey, I'm doing

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Speaker 2: this the peoples, except.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes in Maga world, but largely no, I agree.

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Speaker 2: Trump does it. That's why they love them. But the

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Speaker 2: ransom them, they don't. Right on their maps, I'm doing

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Speaker 2: this to predact people, not much downright.

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Speaker 1: Except they did in Alabama, which is why they lost,

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Speaker 1: by the way, right exactly.

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Speaker 2: But here in South Carolina, they just oh, no, no, we're

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Speaker 2: just doing this politically. The district courts factually said that

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Speaker 2: that was just wrong. One of the ways that we

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Speaker 2: know they were doing it racially not played is that

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Speaker 2: they left white Democrats and Nancy Mace's district right right.

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Speaker 2: They didn't move them out, they moved out black Democrats,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, but the Spring Court, we had oral

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Speaker 2: arguments on that two weeks ago. Feels like a lifetime ago.

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Speaker 2: But two weeks ago I listened to them and it

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Speaker 2: was just, there's no way that South Carolina NAACP is

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Speaker 2: going to win this case. John Roberts is basically like,

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Speaker 2: how can we know racism even exists? You didn't say they.

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Speaker 1: Were racist, again laughing to keep from crying. Not laughing,

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Speaker 1: because any of this is fine.

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Speaker 2: And alleged attempt at rapist Brett Kavanaugh, he invoked his

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Speaker 2: black friend Jim Kleiber because Cliber, I mean, and you

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Speaker 2: can kind up be a I can criticize Cliburn for

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Speaker 2: this a bit, but like I also can kind of

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Speaker 2: understand it. You just told Jim Clyburn was told you're

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Speaker 2: gonna your district is going to be unlosable by a

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Speaker 2: black person, and Clyburn was like, yes, please, Yeah. So Clyburn,

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Speaker 2: you know, tacitly signed off on the racist map that

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Speaker 2: South Carolina used, and so then oral Argus Bett Capitol

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Speaker 2: is basically like, well, Jim Cloyd weren't think it was racist.

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Speaker 1: Right, and he's my best friend and best buddy.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's just it's a it's a bad scene. And

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Speaker 2: what it's going to mean is that, as I have

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Speaker 2: predicted in twenty nineteen after Rucho, any racial jerrymander can

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Speaker 2: just be called a political jerrymander, and these idiots on

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court will fall.

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Speaker 1: For Yeah, so let me ask you, right, And they're idiots,

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Speaker 1: they're useful idiots, right, they're not really they want to

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Speaker 1: fall for it.

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Speaker 2: Idiots is given is being too kind them exactly.

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Speaker 1: Anyways, the last time you were on this podcast, and

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Speaker 1: now I remember something you said, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: we do eighteen thousand interviews a day. So the fact

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Speaker 1: that I remember something you said is I think it's

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Speaker 1: the first time this has ever happened. But you said

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Speaker 1: to me, Amy Cony Barrett is actually really smart yep.

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Speaker 1: And I remember thinking to myself, really, you said, you hear,

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Speaker 1: what are her oral arguments? And you hear, this is

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Speaker 1: a person who is very smart working things out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So here's my question for you. Yesterday in Colorado, she

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Speaker 1: said there needs to be an ethics code. We're all

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Speaker 1: in on an ethics code. And then she declined to

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Speaker 1: say why they hadn't had an ethics code before that.

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Speaker 1: So she's playing three dimensional chess here, right.

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Speaker 2: She understands, as I do believe John Roberts does, if

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Speaker 2: you gave him truth zero, that the ethics concern are

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Speaker 2: the only things that can interrupt their project, right, because

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Speaker 2: I said, they're in the process of spiking the football.

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Speaker 4: Right, and the only thing that's.

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Speaker 2: Going to decrease their ability to spike the football is

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Speaker 2: if people feel like the Supreme Court is corrupt, which

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Speaker 2: it is, right. It's one of those things like, if

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Speaker 2: you're winning, you don't need to commit a foul. You're winning, right.

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Speaker 2: It's only if you start following the other teams and

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Speaker 2: getting penalties and giving them free opportunities to score that

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Speaker 2: you got any danger of losing. And that is what

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Speaker 2: Keny Barrett is trying to say. She's all in on

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Speaker 2: ethics because first of all, she's probably not nearly as

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Speaker 2: corrupt as her colleagues, right, I mean, the bar.

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Speaker 1: Is pretty fucking low, But yeah, she hasn't been zipping

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Speaker 1: along on somebody else's jack.

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Speaker 2: Nobody's buying her RV. Right, So there's probably that. But

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Speaker 2: there's also the idea that, like, it's only through corruption

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Speaker 2: can they lose their generational majority right to do whatever

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Speaker 2: they want. And the thing about the and ethics reform

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Speaker 2: that is led by the Supreme Court is going to

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Speaker 2: be necessarily a lot easier, a lot more forgiving than

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Speaker 2: an ethics reform led by kind of an angry Congress

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five. If things don't go Republicans' way

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Speaker 2: in the next election, right, and again, this is what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying. She's a smart lady. It's wise to get

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Speaker 2: out ahead of this in fairness Elena Kagan, who is

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Speaker 2: actually the only justice I believe is incorruptible. So I've

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Speaker 2: got like I got Kegan stories. I had her for

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Speaker 2: law school, and she was the dean of my law

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Speaker 2: school eventually the year that I graduated. So one of

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Speaker 2: my stories is she used to be a smoker. I

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Speaker 2: don't think she has anymore good.

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Speaker 1: We need her healthy.

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Speaker 2: I a smoker. So I was in a store buying

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Speaker 2: cigarettes and she was behind me, and I offer to

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Speaker 2: buy her a pack of cigarettes, and she looks at

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Speaker 2: me as she goes mister listall, would you offer any

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Speaker 2: person in this store a free pack? Is not sure?

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Speaker 2: There are people who would like to have a free package?

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Speaker 2: Or are you only offering me a pack of cigarettes

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Speaker 2: because i'm your.

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Speaker 1: Law school dan m And the answer is yes.

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Speaker 2: I think you have to examine your conscience, so why

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Speaker 2: you would do that? And I was like, yo, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think Clarence Thomas is having that conversation. Okie, are

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Speaker 1: you just flying me on your jet to talk to

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Speaker 1: your donors? Because I'm a supreme Court justice with seemingly

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Speaker 1: unlimited right.

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Speaker 2: I was educated that day. Elena Kagan famously will not

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Speaker 2: accept free locks on her Bagel okay, so she is uncorruptible,

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Speaker 2: and she has also been out there in favor of

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Speaker 2: ethics reform. We know why it's not happening because Clarence

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Speaker 2: Thomas makes too much money off of it. And he's

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Speaker 2: not the only one. He's the most kind of greedy

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Speaker 2: and least tactful one, right, But Corsa is making money

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Speaker 2: off the lands deals. Alito's getting a flown all around

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Speaker 2: the country. Roberts, you know, we say that he maybe

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Speaker 2: you don't give the money directly to him. But Roberts's

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Speaker 2: wife is a big time legal recruiter. All she has

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Speaker 2: is move lawyers from one firm to another. Makes millions

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Speaker 2: of dollars doing that. And you know, one might ask, who,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if you would be as successful of that

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Speaker 2: if your husband wasn't on the Supreme Court. If you're

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Speaker 2: a legal recruiter, you come to my prayers like I've

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Speaker 2: got three lawyers that you should totally hire, and my

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Speaker 2: practice involves you know, repellant law, and from the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to listen to you John Roberts's wife, right,

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Speaker 2: So most of them have dirty hands. And then there's

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Speaker 2: the question of like, what's the actual punishment going because

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Speaker 2: you can't have ethics reforms without ethical consequences, right, right,

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Speaker 2: what's the punishment? First of all, who gets to decide

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Speaker 2: that ethics have been violated? And once there is, what's

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Speaker 2: what's the punishment for judges who violated ethical guidelines or

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Speaker 2: refuse to accuse themselves from cases? Right now, it is

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Speaker 2: up to each individual justice to consult their own conscience

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Speaker 2: about whether or not they should sit for a case.

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Speaker 2: Any real ethics reform changes that. That's where the fight is,

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Speaker 2: right because like, who gets to tell Clarence no, you

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Speaker 2: can't sit on this case? Is the ballgame?

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Speaker 1: That's right? That's right?

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Speaker 2: Absolution that way, I think it should be an independent

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Speaker 2: panel of retired judges. I think that that's the simplest, easy, easiest,

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Speaker 2: and most bear solution. You get a three judge retired,

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Speaker 2: you can do a retired handle. The former Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: justice is right, there are many of us are alive.

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Speaker 2: David Suitor, Anthony.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy, Oh, that's an amazing idea.

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Speaker 2: David suit Anthony Kennedy and Stephen Breyer, all still alive.

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Speaker 2: Put them on a panel, have them decide who asked

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Speaker 2: the recuse move.

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Speaker 1: Salved Ellie, I hope you will come back.

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Speaker 2: Y, absolutely will. The world isn't completely on fire.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yes, it's so crazy.

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Speaker 2: We still have things like radio programs. Then yes, I'll have.

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Speaker 1: Congresswoman mikey Shall represents New Jersey's eleventh congressional district. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to fast Politics, Congresswoman.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: You're coming off these votes. What is happening with your

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Speaker 1: branch of government?

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Speaker 3: Wow, it might basier to track what's not happening in

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Speaker 3: ibras government. I turned to back in January when we

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Speaker 3: were having vote after vote after vote to get a

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Speaker 3: new Speaker of the House, and it was sort of

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Speaker 3: a historic moment, and I turned to a friend of

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Speaker 3: mine on the floor and I said, you know, just once,

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Speaker 3: I'd like to start a Congress not in a historic moment, because,

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Speaker 3: as you recall my first session of Congress, we were

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Speaker 3: facing the longest government shut down our nation had ever faced.

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Speaker 3: Trump was in office. It was the first federal election

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Speaker 3: after he had taken office, and so that was really

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Speaker 3: an historic moment, and then sadly, the next time I

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Speaker 3: got sworn in several days later, it was January sixth.

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Speaker 3: It was horrible. So that was a historic moment. And

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Speaker 3: then we had the speaker McCarthy vote a historic moment

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Speaker 3: and she, my friend, turned me and said, I said,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'd like to not be in a historic moment.

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Speaker 3: She looked at me with this very skeptical look and

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Speaker 3: she goes, really, and I said, no, not really. I

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Speaker 3: mean that's why, right, we're in the transformative times. I

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Speaker 3: believe a lot is on the line for our country,

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Speaker 3: including at times the democracy itself. And so I'm really

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Speaker 3: proud to be here and doing this kind of work.

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Speaker 3: It is really, really troubling as you try to find

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Speaker 3: the best way forward for the country. And I can

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Speaker 3: tell you with utmost confidence that Jim Jordan is not

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Speaker 3: the best pathward for this country.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's the understatement of the year for

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Speaker 1: the people who are like keeping track at home and

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Speaker 1: who for whom this is not their entire lives. Jim

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Speaker 1: Jordan decided that he was going to be the nominee

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Speaker 1: despite having less votes than Steve Scalise.

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Speaker 3: Right, So my sense is that there are people within

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Speaker 3: the Republican Conference who are incredibly worried about the institution

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Speaker 3: of Congress. Not worth to actually, you know, work with

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Speaker 3: Democrats at this point and get a new speaker elected.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, certainly not.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think that there were people that were

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Speaker 3: supporting Scalese who just really looked at the numbers and said, look,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to make this happen. I think Jordan

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Speaker 3: was putting out that he had more votes than he

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Speaker 3: did and there were twenty thoats on the floor after

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Speaker 3: the last vote that would not support him. I believe

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Speaker 3: he can only lose four. You know, it's hard to

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Speaker 3: see him closing that gap. I'm not saying impossible. I

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Speaker 3: often complain that many of my colleagues seem to end

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Speaker 3: up doing what I would suggest is the wrong thing

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Speaker 3: for the country after suggesting they wouldn't. So we don't know,

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Speaker 3: but at this point it doesn't look like he'll get that.

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Speaker 3: So some of the things we're contemplating is whether or

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Speaker 3: not it makes sense to empower Speaker pro Tem McHenry

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Speaker 3: getting him.

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Speaker 1: More power, and that could happen, right, yeah, but it is.

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Speaker 3: It is really interesting because you know a lot of

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Speaker 3: people were shocked at the twenty people who didn't support him.

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Speaker 3: I was shocked at the over two hundred who did

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Speaker 3: support him, or the almost two or two did support him.

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Speaker 3: He has this history, I mean, even as far back

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Speaker 3: is when he was a wrestling coach, kind of turning

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Speaker 3: a blind eye to what kids on his team said

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Speaker 3: were reports that they had reported to him of sexual assault,

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Speaker 3: and then not passing any legislation in the seventeen years

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Speaker 3: he's been in Congress, which oddly got some applause on

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Speaker 3: the floor of the House from his colleagues, which I

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Speaker 3: didn't understand. It just kind of showed you the chaos

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Speaker 3: and the almost pride in not governing from some quarters

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Speaker 3: of the you know, kind of the extreme members of

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Speaker 3: that conference. But I guess we should be somewhat happy

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Speaker 3: that he has not been effective, because he's also the

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Speaker 3: chief author of the national abortion Bill with no exceptions,

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Speaker 3: he's started numerous investigations that continue to lead to dead end.

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Speaker 3: So he's just waiting a lot of taxpayer dollars, which

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Speaker 3: you know, of all people, he should not be because

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Speaker 3: he won't vote to fund the government, tries to and

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Speaker 3: really you know, not pass the budget. So with all

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Speaker 3: this as his record, it's hard to see that anything

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Speaker 3: good would from having him as the speaker. Again, I

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Speaker 3: would say another Underfaid, not sure.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you about this. The world is

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Speaker 1: on fire right. We have mega crisis in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: we have mega crisis in Ukraine with Russia. I mean,

434
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: it's just really perilous moment. Tommy Tuberville is still holding

435
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: up the appointments.

436
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's shocking, it really is that he is now

437
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 3: really imperiling some of what's going on in what we

438
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 3: call SENTCOM, which is the Middle East Area of Operations,

439
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 3: as we have seen those horrible attacks and we're attempting

440
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: to support Israel in the region and get humanitarian aid

441
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 3: into Gaza. We have military members who are now going

442
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: to be statutorily required to leave in that area. And

443
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: these are complicated issues that we're facing. We know that

444
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: he's held up. I think by the end of the year,

445
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: over two thirds of our flag opsters, which are admirals

446
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 3: and generals, will be satutorily required to leave their posts.

447
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 3: And you know, again, I think this is just tied

448
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 3: to the chaos that you see on the far right

449
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 3: and the fact that their constituencies do not hold them accountable.

450
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: I think is the.

451
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 3: Toughest pill to swallow, because you know, what I often

452
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 3: say is, it's not the fact that Marjorie Taylor Green

453
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: is in Congress. It's the fact that in a district

454
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 3: of seven hundred and fifty thousand people, she's the person

455
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: that they want representing them in Congress. That's what kills

456
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 3: you about the whole thing, is that there are people

457
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: that are so cynical that that's the representation that they want.

458
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the sort of possibilities here they're going

459
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: to be. I think they recess, they'll vote more, They'll

460
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: just keep voting until people completely run out of ideas.

461
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: I mean, where does this go.

462
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 3: I've heard we're going to go back and vote again

463
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 3: in a little over an hour, which is a little

464
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: bit surprising. Again, I have a hard time believing that

465
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 3: in this show short period of time, he's moved the numbers.

466
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: But maybe you know, here's what's different. Sometimes you move

467
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 3: numbers on speaker votes because people want People hold out

468
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 3: because they want to be named to a powerful committee,

469
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: or they want some agreement on legislation that is very

470
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 3: important to them, and so they negotiate. I am not

471
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 3: getting a sense that some of the holdouts are holding

472
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 3: out because they want anything from Jordan. I'm getting a

473
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 3: sense that they're holding out because they specifically do not

474
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 3: want Jordan to be the Speaker of the House, and

475
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: that's different. So it's hard for me to see him

476
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: moving the numbers very much. But we're going to go

477
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 3: back and try again in about an hour, and then

478
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I mean, I have heard from a

479
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 3: Republican colleague that they need to hit rock bottom before

480
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 3: they've murmured.

481
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: It's like the craziest thing. I need to hit rock bottom.

482
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: It's like your junkie cousin.

483
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 4: Why don't we think we're there?

484
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 3: You know, like, what is what is it about this

485
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 3: situation that doesn't scream rock bottom?

486
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: You can get Jordan elected to the speakership that could

487
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: be in many ways rock bottom right there.

488
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 3: Right, you know. I just I remember when I was

489
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: in the Navy, there used to be these performance reviews,

490
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 3: and sometimes people would put snarky things in performance reviews,

491
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: and one of them was this person it doesn't seem

492
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: to have a real grasp of the matter, has hit

493
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: rock bottom and continues to dig and that's sort of

494
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: I keep thinking we've hit rock bottom, but we continue

495
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 3: to dig.

496
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: Is what is the plan here?

497
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 3: So I do think though, that maybe it's time to

498
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 3: really consider empowering mckenry so that we can just continue

499
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 3: to run the government until the Republicans have a better

500
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 3: path forward, because I really don't think that barring working

501
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: with Democrats. And I'm not just saying this as a Democratic,

502
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: I don't think any Republican can get the votes that

503
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: they need right to become speaker in the Republican Conference,

504
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: which is, you know, a remarkable thing to say.

505
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: By the way, I love Republicans blaming Democrats for this that.

506
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 3: Came out in nowhere right Kevin McCarthy, and it was

507
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: the Republicans only it was some Democrats telling me about this.

508
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 3: But suddenly McCarthy goes from being one of the worst

509
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 3: speakers the House has ever known, you know, I mean,

510
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: his appeasement strategy got weirder and weirder because he kept

511
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: giving up governance to trying to appease the Freedom Caucus.

512
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: And then he finally says, you can start an impeachment inquiry,

513
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 3: but he got nothing for it. That's when I knew

514
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: we were at the beginning of the end, I'm like, well,

515
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: if you're going to appease somebody, you know. I thought

516
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: he was saying, you could do that and you then

517
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 3: have to vote to fund the government or vote for

518
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: a cr or something. But he just sort of gave

519
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: that away and didn't ask anything in return. And I thought,

520
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 3: you know, now we have somebody who's trying to be worse,

521
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: who's trying to like out Freedom Caucus the Freedom Caucus.

522
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: So things were going in a really, really bad direction.

523
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: I know, his conference was furious with him, Moderates in

524
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 3: everyone they thought he was really I mean, obviously, and

525
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: then Democrats were furious with him. He you know, less

526
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: than a week after he made a deal with the

527
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 3: President of the United States, he then abended the deal

528
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 3: and didn't follow it. So he was sort of at

529
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 3: an all time low. And I said to a friend

530
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: of mine and said, wow, we must just really love

531
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: an underdog, because the minute that guy's out, suddenly everyone

532
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: kind of reviews it and decides he should be speaker

533
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: and Democrats should make him speaker.

534
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: It was a really weird.

535
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 3: Twist, and I've said to some people and a lot

536
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: of the people that were most upset by this were

537
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: members of Republican moderates. A lot of them were in

538
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: the problem Solver's Caucus, and you know, they were furious.

539
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: And I said to a friend of mine and said,

540
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 3: you know, they have so convinced themselves that somehow, by

541
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 3: doing every single thing they're far right extremist and base

542
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: tells them to do, and just by doing that and

543
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: just staying in their seats, that somehow they're doing the

544
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 3: Lord's work and that they're the heroes in this narrative,

545
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 3: and somehow we Democrats should now do that too. We

546
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: should all just do whatever the Republican base needs us

547
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: to do so we can stay in our seats because

548
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 3: and this is what I hear all the time, because

549
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: if I wasn't here, someone worse would be where I'm like,

550
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: if you are voting to not fund government, if you

551
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 3: are voting to you know, have a nationwide abortion ban,

552
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: if you are voting not only if you are not

553
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: voting on gun safety measures, but if you are voting

554
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: to make guns more dangerous with pistol braces, for example,

555
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: then why is that not the same as how the

556
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: Freedom Caucus is voting. It is you know, that's no better.

557
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: You're not making a difference. You're not moving this country

558
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: in a good direction, and you're certainly not moving the

559
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 3: Republican Party in a good direction. And we need the

560
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: Republican Party to reform itself. We are two party system,

561
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: and we can't have one party be the party that's

562
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 3: trying to take down the government of the United States

563
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: of America.

564
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, that is the fundamental thing. Is like when

565
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: people were like a Jim Jordan's speakership will be so

566
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: much worse, part of me was like, really, because Kevin

567
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: McCarthy held impeachment hearings, he had a cr that cut

568
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: the government by thirty percent. I mean, these moderates are

569
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: not really very moderates.

570
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because when people ask me who

571
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 3: would Democrats support, there's a lot of members I think

572
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: of the Republican Conference that Democrats would be willing to

573
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: work with. And these aren't moderates. The bar has gotten

574
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: so low. They're just people that I think a lot

575
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 3: of us would term reasonable human beings, people that want

576
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: to keep government open, people that want to support our

577
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 3: allies across the world. It's really fascinating because in other

578
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 3: times you would think that if Democrats were in any

579
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: way going to you know, be helpful here, they would

580
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: ask for the world right pro choice legislation, and gun

581
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: safety legislation, assault weapons ban, and you know, different priorities

582
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 3: that we have that we feel passionately about. And yet

583
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: at this point, all we're trying to do is find

584
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: a pathway towards keeping the government open and getting some

585
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: really key bipartisan by the way, I mean, these are

586
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: things that the Senate, you know, with almost with a

587
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: very slim slimmer majority. I mean, the Senate passes on

588
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: a routine basis, even though they have a filibuster. So

589
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: we're not asking for anything that's not hugely bipartisan. We're

590
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: just trying to get government to work. And I think

591
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: that's a really important thing. And that's why, you know,

592
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 3: when somebody called me to talk to me about Scalis,

593
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: who I certainly not my first choice. But so the

594
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: reason I'm having this conversation with you is because I

595
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: really care about the House of Representatives, I really care

596
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 3: about this country, and we've got to find a path

597
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: forward here.

598
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: And right now, you know, there just aren't.

599
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: Serious people in the Republican Conference working to that end.

600
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: And I hope they will soon because the country needs it.

601
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: Talk to me about childcare, because you're working on childcare

602
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: and this is a crisis for all of us who

603
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: have children. Let me say, though, my children are too

604
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: old for that now, but you probably remember what a

605
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: debaclet was. Yes, it's a disaster. It's so hard. It

606
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: was a disaster.

607
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: And even if your children are older, I've got some

608
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: really bad news, if you can believe it, it's worse now.

609
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: So I remember with horror and all kinds of ajuda

610
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: and stomach aches, and this when I think about trying

611
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: to get childcare for my oldest, my daughter who is

612
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: now eighteen, and the struggles I had with my other children.

613
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: As you know, I kept trying to find quality and

614
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: affordable childcare, and there were times when I was paying

615
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 3: more than my paycheck to have my kids in childcare,

616
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: which is crazy and doesn't make short term economic sense,

617
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 3: which is why we see so many parents off in

618
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: women dropping out of the workforce. But it doesn't make

619
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 3: long term economic sense. And so making sure that you

620
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 3: know people have access to good childcare is critically important

621
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: for their economic wellbeing, for their children's economic wellbeing, for

622
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 3: their future, for their retirement. But it's also really important

623
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: for the economy, which is why certainly the New Jersey

624
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: Chamber of Commerce has talked to me about this. But

625
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: I think there's you know, in Kentucky, I was reading

626
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: about a group of businessmen coming to the state to say, really,

627
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: you know, now that we've gone over this childcare clip,

628
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: you've really got to support investment in childcare. I mean

629
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: we have you know, we have workforce issues, and if

630
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: we don't figure out childcare, we will continue to have them.

631
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: And it's holding back the economy right now.

632
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, for sure. And also we have a

633
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: labor issues. But no one ever will fix immigration.

634
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: It's interesting because that is certainly a huge concern right now,

635
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 3: is border security. I hear that from my collegues across

636
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 3: the aisle all the time, and as we address that,

637
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: we have to have comprehensive immigration reform. And get asked

638
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: all the time about immigration and what's the solution. And

639
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 3: the striking thing is I could have told you the

640
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 3: solution five years ago when I started running for Congress.

641
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 3: It is the same solution I have today, which is

642
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: very rare. Right, normally that conomy changes the facts on

643
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: the ground change. I am telling you we need security

644
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 3: at the border. We need a pathway to citizen and

645
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 3: ship for people who are here for GPS for Dhaka.

646
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: We need to address some of the foundational reasons for immigration,

647
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: which in some parts, like in the Northern Triangle area,

648
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: can be international criminal syndicates. I think we're seeing shifts

649
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 3: across the world now that are going to also cause

650
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: huge immigration trends that we have to address. But this

651
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: is not news, and I'm telling you I hear about

652
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: the problems in our immigration system. I told you I

653
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: was on the committee for Strategic Competition with Chinese Communist Party,

654
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: so we talked to some really high end CEOs and

655
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 3: technology who are lamenting our problems with high skill labor.

656
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: And I can also tell you that the Republicans wanted

657
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 3: to pass a huge anti immigration built and we're having,

658
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: you know, just huge problems with it because their rural

659
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: communities were concerned about immigrat I.

660
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: Mean, people to work there. So it's been gamut.

661
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: It is up and down the economic spectrum and it

662
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 3: is harming our economy. And I would suggest to it's

663
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 3: just contrary to the values of this country the way

664
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: we treat people involved in this system.

665
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: And it's also just like counter to capitalism, right, they

666
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: just want to punish people. They need people to do

667
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: the jobs. You have this population that is not growing,

668
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: and I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

669
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 3: And yet instead of having a thoughtful approach to this,

670
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: where we can determine the type of immigration that we need,

671
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 3: how to have an orderly processing system, how to have

672
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: people apply for legal immigration, instead we now have a

673
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 3: severely broken system where we have people arriving and flooding

674
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 3: different towns and areas that have no ability to handle this.

675
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: So you know, this is across the board. We need

676
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: more people involved in how to process people through. We

677
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: need to determine with asylum seekers how to best handle

678
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: that because again, this is the reason we have these

679
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: asylum laws is in large part because we failed people

680
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 3: fleeing the Holocaust during World War Two and you know

681
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: Jewish people fleeing the Nazi So this is a huge

682
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 3: issue that we've got to solve. It's a moral issue,

683
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: it's an economic issue, and the way we are avoiding

684
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: solving it now because it's a politically difficult issue for

685
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 3: many members is really leading to worse and worse outcomes.

686
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: Thank you, Congresswoman.

687
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: Well, thank you.

688
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: And Applebaum is a writer for the Atlantic and author

689
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: of Twilight of Democracy. Welcome back to Fast Politics, and Applebaum,

690
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to

691
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: have you because this is a period in American life

692
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: where everything is just so incredibly depressing and bleak, and

693
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: you have a tiny sliver of hope, no pressure.

694
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 4: Yes, and I write a lot about the bleakness, so

695
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 4: I know what you're talking about. But part of my

696
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 4: life is spent in Poland. I've lived here on and

697
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 4: off for thirty years, as well as living in America

698
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 4: and being an American. My husband is Polish. He's a politician.

699
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 4: He was in the former Polish government, and we have

700
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 4: just had an election here which was an emphatic rejection

701
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 4: of an autocratic, populist, nationalist, far right political party, and

702
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 4: it's really good news. Many of us were convinced that

703
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 4: it wasn't possible that they had captured the state to

704
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 4: such an extent. They controlled the judiciary, they controlled a

705
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 4: lot of the media, they controlled the civil service, they controlled,

706
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 4: you know, so many aspects of life that we weren't

707
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 4: sure whether a free election was still possible and it

708
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 4: turned out that it was that there was enough still

709
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 4: left in the of democracy, in the system and of

710
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 4: the people counting. The votes were carefully monitored by a

711
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 4: big civil society project and so on, and we had

712
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 4: a really big turnout. It was seventy four percent in

713
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 4: the whole nation, which is very high for Poland. That

714
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 4: seems crazy high for anywhere. It's crazy high. And actually

715
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 4: in the city of Warsaw it was eighty four percent.

716
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 4: And I have a friend outed in one district, in

717
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 4: one particular Warsaw neighborhood, and at his polling station the

718
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 4: turnout was ninety one percent. And that tells you how

719
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 4: mad people were and how much they wanted the government out,

720
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 4: and how worried they were that if they didn't get

721
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 4: them out, that Poland would be an autocracy and there

722
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 4: would be no more free elections. And that was really

723
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 4: what was on the ballot here, you know, that was

724
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 4: this was at the center of the conversation. There are

725
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: other issues here too. There were a lot of women's

726
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 4: rights issues. That we have a horrifically strict abortion law

727
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 4: here that's resulted in the deaths of several young women,

728
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 4: and so that was of course part of the conversation too,

729
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 4: but it was also can we take back the country,

730
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 4: can we have you know, normal institutions again, you know,

731
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 4: can we avoid this process of state capture? And it

732
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 4: turned out that we could. I mean, there's actually still

733
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 4: a long way to go, and we haven't had the

734
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 4: change of government yet, and the president who's from the

735
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 4: or former far right ruling party, may try and block things,

736
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 4: but this is a parliamentary system and hopefully sooner rather

737
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 4: than later we will get a government. But we have

738
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 4: a clear majority for the three democratic opposition parties, which

739
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 4: all want to return Poland to democracy, and so that's

740
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 4: good news.

741
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: Could you sort of talk us through what the landscape

742
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: is there, and also can you talk about your husband's

743
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: experience a little bit, just because it shows what a

744
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: sort of authoritarian bent and how insidious the far right was.

745
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 4: So there are weird parallels between Poland and the US

746
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 4: that for a long time what were just in my

747
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 4: head And then when I wrote a book that was

748
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 4: partly about this, and I realized that many of the

749
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 4: patterns were the same. The Polish right was a kind

750
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 4: of anti communist, you know, sort of vaguely Thatcherite, Reaganite right,

751
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 4: you know, once in a potime. Then it essentially split

752
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 4: and part of it went further to the right, became

753
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 4: very extremist and became very and began this process of

754
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 4: attacking Polish democratic institut much as Trump does in the

755
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 4: United States. So if you think about attacking the media,

756
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 4: attacking the cords, attacking the political system itself, that's what

757
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 4: they wound up doing. We were at a funny position

758
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 4: here because we knew some of them, because some of

759
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 4: them had made this journey from the center to the

760
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 4: far right, and that's something I've written about before. And

761
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 4: when they took power, they immediately set about trying to

762
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 4: undermine the state. So they immediately began to take over

763
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 4: all the institutions. One of the things they took over,

764
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 4: for example, with the security Services, the Prosecution Office, and

765
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 4: one of the things they do is financial investigations of people,

766
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 4: which are essentially a former harassment. You know, they will,

767
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 4: you know, if you're somebody who bothers them.

768
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: Like an audit, right, like an audit, or.

769
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 4: Worse, you know, a bit nastier than that. They actually

770
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 4: have the ability here to come and arrest you and

771
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 4: put you in jail before you're indicted Jesus. It's happened

772
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 4: to some of the people who got in their way

773
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 4: or they who they didn't like. It happened to a

774
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 4: colleague of my husband's who was a lawyer who had

775
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 4: uncovered a really big corruption scandal to do with the

776
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: ruling party and its leader.

777
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: It's pretty scary.

778
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 4: And these are things that are supposed to be for

779
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 4: you know, terrorism or organized crime or something like that.

780
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 4: And they began to you know, they exist in the

781
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 4: in the system as a kind of emergency thing to

782
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 4: deal with, especially dangerous criminals. They began using it a

783
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: little bit against their political enemies and so and that

784
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 4: became a thing that people were worried about. They used

785
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 4: a form of spywaar called Pegasus, which I'm sorry to

786
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 4: say is Israeli, which again is sold to be used

787
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 4: against terrorism and sol and you could put it on

788
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 4: people's phones and then you can hear everything they say,

789
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 4: and they can use the phone as a recording device

790
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 4: and so on. And that happened here too. And you know,

791
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 4: we had the phenomenon in Poland that is reminiscent of

792
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 4: the olden days when Poland was a communist country that

793
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 4: you know, you would leave your phone in a different

794
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 4: room when you would have a conversation that started wow here.

795
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that it was everywhere you know, or

796
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 4: that it was I don't want to overplay it, but

797
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 4: certainly if you were in politics, if you were someone

798
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 4: who had a big public profile, you became very nervous

799
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 4: about what the state could do to you. We hope

800
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 4: that this election brings that to an end. But it's

801
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 4: also a kind of warning sign. I mean, when you

802
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 4: have a party which is that unscrupulous taking power, and

803
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: when they have access to all these tools that modern

804
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 4: states have, you know, investigations and wire tapping, it's on.

805
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 4: It's not like it's unknown in American history, but it's

806
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 4: essentially what the Nickson administration was right. And when you

807
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 4: have access to all these tools, you know, they have

808
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 4: a lot of ways to harass people. So pushing back

809
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 4: against them, and as I said, this really big turnout

810
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 4: was an important sign that people don't want that. I

811
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 4: should say my husband was not a candidate in this election,

812
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: but he did campaign on behalf of the opposition.

813
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: And he was in the parliament before.

814
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was in the problem before. He was the

815
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: Foreign Minister for seven years from twenty into twenty fourteen.

816
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 4: So he has a you know, he's associated and the

817
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 4: person who's just was the leader of the opposition, he's

818
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 4: very closely associated with his Donald Tulsk.

819
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: Tusk was involved in the EU.

820
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Donald, So the current leader was prime minister

821
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 4: of Poland until twenty fourteen. He was appointed to a

822
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 4: big European job. He was Chairman of the European Council,

823
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 4: which means he was he presided over the body of

824
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 4: prime ministers that meets periodict, which is a real leadership

825
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 4: of the EU. And he did that for several years,

826
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 4: and then he made a kind of momentous decision to

827
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 4: come back to Polish politics, which was for him a

828
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 4: real gamble because he could have gone off and you know,

829
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 4: worked as a consultant or worked for a bank. There

830
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 4: were a lot of lucrative jobs he could have had.

831
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 4: And he decided to come back partly because of this

832
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 4: fear that the name of the ruling party was law

833
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 4: and Justice, and the fear that this party would take

834
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 4: over the state and make Poland essentially into an autocracy.

835
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 4: And so he believed very much in fighting back against that,

836
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 4: and he came back and he reorganized the party and

837
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 4: he you know, they ran a great election campaign, and

838
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: I said, a lot of it was focused on getting

839
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 4: younger people to vote, getting women to vote. A lot

840
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 4: of it also they created these organizations to monitor elections.

841
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 4: They got people to sign up and sort of work

842
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 4: on behalf of democracy. I mean a little bit of

843
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: that happened in the US in twenty twenty as well.

844
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds a lot like the Biden coming back

845
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: because he felt that it was you know, yeah, there's

846
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: some parallels.

847
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: I mean to a slowly younger than Biden's I think

848
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 4: he's six six, but the feeling that the election is existential,

849
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 4: that it's about the nature of the country. I think

850
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 4: a lot of people did agree with that, and the

851
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 4: ruling party did absolutely everything they could to twist the

852
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 4: election to do with funding and media, but also the

853
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 4: way in which seats were proportioned, so you know, it's

854
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 4: basically easier to get elected in the countryside, which is

855
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 4: where their base is in rural Poland.

856
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: Like jerry mandering.

857
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 4: It's not exactly jerry mandering, but it's like j so

858
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 4: you would find much of it familiar. I mean, it's

859
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: like the politics of Tennessee. Frankly, how do you fix

860
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 4: the system so that you don't lose? And they really

861
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 4: did try to do that, but eventually they lost, and

862
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 4: it was mostly thanks to this very large number of

863
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 4: people who voted.

864
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: Clearly, there's a lesson year for American politics.

865
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's not a precise lesson. Some of

866
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 4: it is stuff we sort of know. But giving people

867
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 4: something to do instead of everybody feeling hopeless, you know,

868
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: the forces of darkness are coming. I can't do anything.

869
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 4: Who am I? What is my one vote? You know,

870
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 4: giving people a task, saying you can organize, you can

871
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 4: be an election observer, you can run, you know that,

872
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: And that I think was a really important element here. Also,

873
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 4: the other thing that was really important was that the

874
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 4: language of the opposition was a kind of civic patriotism,

875
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 4: you know, against right wing nationalism. You know, we are Polish.

876
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 4: All their big rallies, people waved the flag, everybody dressed

877
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 4: in red and white, which are the Polish colors. Everyone

878
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 4: talked about Polish history and Polish tradition and you know,

879
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 4: and we're part of it.

880
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 3: You know.

881
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 4: They tried to take this idea that you know, only

882
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 4: the real Poles are the you know, the right is

883
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 4: somehow the real nation. They tried to end that mythology.

884
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 4: You know, we are modern, forward looking Polish patriots who

885
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 4: want our country to be great. But in a different way.

886
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 4: There's some kind of lesson there. I think for Americans

887
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 4: there are ideas particularly, you know, it works even better

888
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 4: in America in a way. You know, there are ideas

889
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 4: that we can unify around as Americans to fight against

890
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 4: this kind of American nationalist extremism. You know, I think

891
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: that's the way to beat it. Give people something to join,

892
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 4: give them something to do, and give them, you know,

893
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 4: a big, important, unifying national message, and that's the best

894
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 4: way to fight the far right.

895
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: The far right in America and awesome in Poland rode

896
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: into favor because of a certain kind of frustration among

897
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: the voting public and maybe also racism and xenophobia. Did

898
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: this sort of solve that problem or was there just

899
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: a sense like globalization is happening? I mean, did people

900
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: get less racist in your mind? Was there a sea

901
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: change there or did people just decide that the darkness

902
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: was too much for them?

903
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 3: Here?

904
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 4: The issues were never exactly economic. A lot of it

905
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 4: was cultural, you know, there was sort of a part

906
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 4: of Poland that felt left behind, not so much economically,

907
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 4: but culturally. You know, the world that we grew up

908
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 4: in in which everybody went to church is changing, and

909
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 4: our young people are moving to the cities, or they're

910
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 4: moving to Paris, or they're moving to London. And there

911
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 4: was some sense of cultural loss that I think was

912
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 4: was actually real, and the far right kind of echoed

913
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 4: that and amplified it and then turned it into this

914
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 4: often very racist language about immigration. You know, actually Poland

915
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 4: has no big immigration problem. They're basically they know there

916
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 4: are a lot of Ukrainian refugees here and Biel Russian refugees,

917
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 4: and there's just this you know, smattering of people from

918
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 4: outside Europe. And ironically, and that's a whole nother story.

919
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 4: This government, the far right government, turns out to have

920
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 4: let in quite a lot of them because they were

921
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 4: selling visas.

922
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

923
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 4: Well, another thing that happens when you have a government

924
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 4: that pushes back on the rule of law, undermines the judiciary,

925
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 4: and takes over the police is that you get corruption.

926
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll do it'll this.

927
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 4: And so there's there's always this link between autocratic populism

928
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 4: and corruption, and that's been you know, and we had

929
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 4: that here as well. And here, I think it was

930
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 4: the combination of, first of all, seeing that some of

931
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 4: the hysteria around immigration wasn't real. It's not happening, it's

932
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 4: not it's not a real thing. I think some of

933
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 4: it was, you know, as I said, this creeping sense

934
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 4: of them taking over everything. Some of it was the

935
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 4: corruption scandals. Some of it was I think, you know,

936
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 4: they almost overdid their propaganda. You know, their language about that.

937
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 4: You know, they basically described task because you know, he's

938
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 4: just a German agent and you know my husband is

939
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 4: a Russian agent, and everybody's foreign. That of course, is

940
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 4: so in contrast with reality. Whereas you know, doesn't speak German,

941
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 4: he speaks Polish. You know, he was prime minister here.

942
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 4: Their extremist propaganda hit some reality measure at some point.

943
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 4: I think it was part of that too. You know,

944
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 4: there was a combination of you know, they went too far,

945
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 4: they did too much, They became to corrupt, They weren't

946
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 4: good managers. They screwed up a lot of you know,

947
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 4: projects and investments. Things aren't working very well here. That

948
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 4: healthcare system is beginning to fall apart. You know, the

949
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 4: whole series of oh education, you know, they wanted patriotic education.

950
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 4: You can imagine what that was.

951
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: I cannot and don't want to You don't.

952
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 4: Even want to know. And people his kids were in

953
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 4: school who came home complaining about stupid things they've been taught.

954
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a cumulative effect of a series of

955
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 4: not very well fought out plans and projects that they

956
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 4: did that failed. That I think also helpful. You know,

957
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 4: it's important or they still have a big base of support.

958
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 4: I mean, third of the country still voted for them,

959
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 4: so crazy, and they will still be there and they're

960
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 4: still they're still running all the institutions and getting rid

961
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 4: of them is going to take a long time. You know,

962
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 4: it's going to be a big project. I mean it's

963
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 4: almost comparable. I mean, I don't want to overdo it

964
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 4: is almost comparable to when communism fell in Poland in

965
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine. You know, then there was a big

966
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 4: project of reform. You know, how do you unpick that regime?

967
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 4: And this isn't quite at that scale, but I mean

968
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 4: there's you know, we have to somehow undo the illegal

969
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 4: judges they appointed. You know, they tried to politicize the

970
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 4: court system. You know, have to undo all kinds of things.

971
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 4: It will take a long time. I mean, By the way,

972
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 4: one of the interesting parallels for Americans is one of

973
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 4: the things Trump has said he wants to do, and

974
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 4: I think some of the people around him even have

975
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 4: pretty concrete plans about it, is fire all the civil

976
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 4: service and replace them with loyalists.

977
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. The Heritage Foundation put out a thing about that,

978
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation, which I used to think of as evil,

979
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: but in a different, more traditional way, right traditionally.

980
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 4: Well, that happened here, and let me tell you it

981
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 4: was a real disaster. Think about it. You know, do

982
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 4: you want people measuring the pollution in your water who

983
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 4: are actual experts in science or do you want them

984
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 4: to be someone's cousin don junior or got the job

985
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 4: because you know he's related to somebody. And we had

986
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 4: like the wholesale replacement of the civil service, right down

987
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 4: to weird things like the Forestry Service, which is a

988
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 4: what does that have to do with politics? And various

989
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 4: state institutions were taken over by the party by this

990
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 4: it's called the law and justice parties, I said, and destroyed.

991
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 4: Poland is a smaller place and there's maybe less damage

992
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 4: you can do. Imagine that happening in the United States.

993
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 4: What kinds of catastrophes there could be. I mean, you know,

994
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 4: the people who are in charge of burying nuclear waste,

995
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 4: or the people who run I don't know, funding for

996
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 4: you know, underfunded schools, or there are all kinds of

997
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 4: programs that are run by the federal grav that if

998
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 4: you destroyed them by destroying the civil service, you could

999
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 4: do a lot of damage. Michael Lewis wrote a good

1000
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 4: book about that. Actually at the time of the first

1001
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 4: Trump administration, it was called the Fifth Risk. But we

1002
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 4: had that in Poland and there was a you know,

1003
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 4: and there was this series of you know, calamities, you know,

1004
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 4: screw ups in one institution, in one area of life

1005
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 4: after the next, and it was it was going to

1006
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 4: get worse.

1007
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just incredible stuff. And Applebaum, I really appreciate

1008
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: you joining us. So interesting and so important and also

1009
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully a model for what happens here let

1010
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: us pry, yeah, or what continues to happen here.

1011
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you, No moment, Jesse Cannon.

1012
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 2: My John Fast I think you want to talk about

1013
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: the man that we're all laughing at today.

1014
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: Jim Jordan, listen. It turns out that math is not

1015
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: just a woke construct. You need votes to win as speaker.

1016
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 1: Jim Jordan is not convinced, and so he will again

1017
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: and again do votes until everybody goes home. When you

1018
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: listen to this tomorrow, very very very very likely Jim

1019
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: Jordan will not be the Speaker of the House. That's

1020
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

1021
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

1022
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

1023
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1024
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.