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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free,

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Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com.

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Speaker 4: When the Matt Gates scandal broke in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 4: I was reached out to by the New York Times

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Speaker 4: and by ABC twenty twenty. Those stories never came out,

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Speaker 4: and those journalists don't talk to me anymore. They tout

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Speaker 4: it as what's wrong with an older man giving someone money,

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Speaker 4: but the reality is much more sinister.

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Speaker 5: Did you see situations where either intelligence informants that type

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Speaker 5: of thing, or very powerful people were entangling themselves.

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Speaker 1: The website Seeking Arrangement has gotten a little bit of

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Speaker 1: time in the limelight because of the controversy surrounding Matt

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Speaker 1: Gates his and his failed attempt to become Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: People may not know the details of this, but some

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Speaker 1: of the scandal that Gates was involved in appears to

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Speaker 1: begin with this website, Seeking Arrangement, which is described itself

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Speaker 1: as a place for sugar daddies and sugar babies. And

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Speaker 1: one of the apparently underage people that was that became

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Speaker 1: involved with Gates through I guess his friend Greenberg, Joel

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Speaker 1: met Joel Greenberg through this Seeking Arrangement site. So it

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Speaker 1: just so happens that there's a new book out by

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Speaker 1: Brooke Burick called Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge. Sexual Exploits and

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Speaker 1: Secrets from Inside a Sugar Daddy Website, which we could

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Speaker 1: put up here as well, which is something of a

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Speaker 1: blowing of the whistle about the about the site and

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Speaker 1: also a personal memoir narrative about how Brooke went from

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Speaker 1: a sugar baby user of the website to it's spokesperson

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Speaker 1: later to then outside critic of the organization. Brook is

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Speaker 1: here to talk with us about the book, about her life,

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Speaker 1: about what this this site is. Brooke, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us and apparently you're you're viewer of the

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Speaker 1: show as well.

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Speaker 4: Yes, thank you so much for having me. I am

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Speaker 4: a counterpoints breaking points Stan. What you guys are doing

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Speaker 4: which better? Honestly, I like this is this is it

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Speaker 4: for me? I like your banter better a little bit more.

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Speaker 4: It's like not as serious.

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Speaker 1: That's Soger and Crystal.

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Speaker 4: I just like love Emily so much, Like think she's

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Speaker 4: my favorite. Yeah, No, I like Ryan too very much.

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Speaker 4: But the discourse that you all have on this show

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Speaker 4: is everything. I think people the country needs this right now.

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Speaker 4: And the more people that become aware of this show

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Speaker 4: and can see that they can agree with people on

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Speaker 4: both sides of the aisle, I think that's really important.

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Speaker 4: So like, kudos to you guys.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very kind of you to say. So, let's

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Speaker 1: start with Matt Gates. So I'm not sure how much

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Speaker 1: you can say about this, but tell us what you

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Speaker 1: can say. My understanding is that you've spoken with some

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Speaker 1: people involved in that scandal, some of the girls who

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Speaker 1: are now women. What do you know about the role

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Speaker 1: of seeking arrangement there and what do you know about

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Speaker 1: what went on there?

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Speaker 4: Well, it was a couple of years ago that I

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Speaker 4: was contacted and to be.

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Speaker 1: Perfect affected by one of the girls.

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Speaker 4: No, by an attorney. Okay, so let me just be

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Speaker 4: clear that, like I don't know what happened behind closed

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Speaker 4: doors with Matt Gates. I've never met Matt Gates, don't

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Speaker 4: know him. I don't but I do have some personal

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Speaker 4: experiences that have led me to believe certain things, and

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Speaker 4: I will share those with you. So as you know,

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Speaker 4: I used to work for this company, and I contacted

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Speaker 4: a nonprofit called the National Center on Sexual Exploitation because

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Speaker 4: I found a really interesting article they'd written that sounded

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Speaker 4: like I'd written it, and it was after I'd had

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Speaker 4: some other experiences with mainstream media not publishing this story,

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Speaker 4: and I reached out to them, and they actually contacted

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Speaker 4: me with an attorney who was representing the minor, and

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Speaker 4: what he told me is that he was suing them

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Speaker 4: or she was sing seeking arrangement, and Matt Gates he

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Speaker 4: was suing them on her behalf. And he contacted me

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Speaker 4: to ask me some questions about the mechanics of the

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Speaker 4: site and how it works, and so I gave him

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Speaker 4: that information. And at the same time, I was corresponding

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Speaker 4: with a journalist from ABC and that journalist told me

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Speaker 4: that the reason the indictment was dropped was because that

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Speaker 4: girl believes that the relationship was consensual and she settled

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Speaker 4: with him privately out of court, in addition to settling

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Speaker 4: with seeking arrangement privately. So that's what I know, and

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Speaker 4: that's led me to believe that there was something that

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Speaker 4: happened that transpired. I don't know what it was. It

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Speaker 4: leads me to believe that that girl was indeed underage.

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Speaker 4: And I know that there are plenty of underage users

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Speaker 4: on the site because it happened all the time while

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Speaker 4: I was working there. But if I had to speculate

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Speaker 4: on what went down in that situation, I would say

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Speaker 4: that Greenberg is probably the procurer or the sex trafficker,

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Speaker 4: if you will, the pimp colloquially we call them, who

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Speaker 4: uses the website to find the girls to then move

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Speaker 4: them to another place to have them paid for sex

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Speaker 4: by any party or something to a party. Yeah, And

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Speaker 4: I think there's a common misconception about like what sex

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Speaker 4: trafficking is. Like we hear it a lot in the media,

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Speaker 4: and people think, oh, like children immigrants being bought and sold,

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Speaker 4: which does happen, But a lot of times the people

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Speaker 4: who are being trafficked are actually like willing participants who

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Speaker 4: believe that it's consensual and don't really realize until years later.

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Speaker 4: Then then when they're looking back that they were coerced

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Speaker 4: and manipulated into doing that. And if I had to guess,

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Speaker 4: I would say that most men in power like oftentimes

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Speaker 4: aren't users of the site. They are friends with people

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Speaker 4: like Joel Greenberg, who are the ones who procure the

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Speaker 4: young girls for them.

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Speaker 1: And they may not know actually, right like, because if

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Speaker 1: you're Joel Greenberg, you wouldn't be like, oh yeah, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I used the website too, You might not know,

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Speaker 1: and I think they would carry their way. It's not

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Speaker 1: a difficult and Berg.

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Speaker 5: You can speak to this actually as you're answering that

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Speaker 5: how does it work? Like you're literally the spokesperson you

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Speaker 5: were for seeking arrangements. So could you just give us

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Speaker 5: a little bit of background on mechanically, like what happens,

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Speaker 5: how people are contacted, how they get on the website

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Speaker 5: For broad I think context as we discuss your story

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Speaker 5: and people keep in mind what maybe happen with Gates.

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Speaker 4: That's a super important question because the website touts itself

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Speaker 4: as not being a place for prostitution and sex work. Right,

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Speaker 4: They say they're a dating website, but if you are

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Speaker 4: actually a user of the site, you'll learn very quickly

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Speaker 4: that it is a site for buying and paying for sex,

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Speaker 4: which is very confusing, especially for young people who get

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Speaker 4: on the website and the marketing, the advertising. What people

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Speaker 4: say is, oh, no, sugar daddies aren't paying for sex.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, sugar babies aren't sex workers. But the fact

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Speaker 4: is there is no difference. They are sex workers, but

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Speaker 4: they are reframing it and coining it to be something different.

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Speaker 1: Like what are the differences?

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Speaker 4: There are no differences, That's what I'm.

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Speaker 1: Social straight up, Like, well, what we.

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Speaker 4: Did while I was working there, And I started working

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Speaker 4: for the company when I was twenty two, so I

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Speaker 4: was also very young, and I didn't really understand and

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Speaker 4: the entire scheme of what was going on. It took

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Speaker 4: me a long time to really unpack that because they

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Speaker 4: tout it as being oh, just looking for an older

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Speaker 4: guy with deep pockets, and what's so wrong with that?

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Speaker 4: What's wrong with an older man giving someone money? But

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Speaker 4: the reality is much more sinister. Not only are the

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Speaker 4: men on the site looking to pay for sex, But

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Speaker 4: there's also a lot of like fraudsters and scammers who

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Speaker 4: either will say they'll pay you for sex but then

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Speaker 4: don't because the victims are vulnerable and of course discredited

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Speaker 4: because they were asking for it on a website that

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Speaker 4: pays people for sex. But which is it. Is it

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Speaker 4: a website where oh no, no, no, it's not that,

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Speaker 4: or were they asking for it on the website, So

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Speaker 4: it just makes it make sense, and it's very confusing,

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Speaker 4: and victims are ashamed of what they've done. Because of

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Speaker 4: the stigma and secrecy around sex work, people aren't willing

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Speaker 4: to come forward out their experiences, which allows the predators

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Speaker 4: to continue to perpetuate this. So back to your question,

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Speaker 4: the way that people get on the website was when

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Speaker 4: I was working there, it was through the marketing, and

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Speaker 4: they've pretty much quieted their accounts. They've completely changed the website,

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Speaker 4: scrubbed it from what it used to be. Probably because

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Speaker 4: of this case and of other cases. They shed their skin,

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Speaker 4: so to speak, over time to code as more vanilla.

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Speaker 4: But the core user base knows exactly what it is

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Speaker 4: and the word of mouth they know exactly what it is.

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Speaker 4: So people join the site thinking it's a dating website

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Speaker 4: where you can pay people for sex, right, So people

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Speaker 4: come to the website of their own volition, and that

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Speaker 4: has for a long time left the website not liable

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Speaker 4: for the interactions between their members because of Section two thirty. Right.

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Speaker 4: And I'm sure like a lot of your audience probably

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Speaker 4: knows what section two thirty is, but I'll just break

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Speaker 4: it down real quick. So there's this provision. It was

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Speaker 4: actually written in nineteen ninety six, before anyone knew what

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Speaker 4: the Internet would become and that the Internet would be

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Speaker 4: like ninety percent user generated content, So it's very outdated.

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Speaker 4: And it's the provision that says websites are not held

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Speaker 4: criminally liable for the content that their third party users

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Speaker 4: post on the website. So I'm sure you remember, like

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Speaker 4: Mark Zuckerberg and back in twenty seventeen was talking to

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Speaker 4: Congress about wanting to section through thirty to stay in place, right,

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Speaker 4: And it.

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Speaker 1: Is important to Interruptrow briefly has its merits in the

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Speaker 1: sense that as this show, for instance, I read a

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Speaker 1: bunch of the comments on down in the comment section

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, how you learned you were seeing exactly? I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be liable for the garbage that people

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Speaker 1: are posting in our comments section like that. I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing that, yeah now, but anyway, that's just that's the

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Speaker 1: counter argument. But there's it's so layered and complicated after that,

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Speaker 1: because what is is YouTube elevating some of this is

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Speaker 1: Facebook elevating some stuff over other stuff, And then are

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Speaker 1: they responsible for that if they're doing blah blahlah anyway,

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Speaker 1: go ahead.

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Speaker 4: Well it goes back to publishers of books, and the

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Speaker 4: distributors of the content are not treated as the publishers

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Speaker 4: of the content, which yes, which is fair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're just shipping the book.

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Speaker 4: Totally fair, understandable and rightly so. And without it, the

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Speaker 4: Internet wouldn't be able to be what it is, and

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Speaker 4: no one would be in the common section, and we

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Speaker 4: wouldn't have this wonderful discourse. So I fully understand that

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Speaker 4: that's a protection that there was a yeah, of course.

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Speaker 4: But when it comes to dating websites, Backpage was a

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Speaker 4: huge section two thirty case. Well, yes, that is my

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Speaker 4: next point. So in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, actually while

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Speaker 4: I was working for the company, backpage was shut down.

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Speaker 4: The founder was arrested and then on sex trafficking charges

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Speaker 4: and then he committed suicide in prison. So anyway, and

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Speaker 4: that was.

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Speaker 1: A result of that FASTA setsa yes, So let's give

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Speaker 1: us that background there.

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Speaker 4: In twenty eighteen, after Backpage had been shut down or

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Speaker 4: the process of a backpage being shut down, and the

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Speaker 4: resulting legislation was fast ASSESSEDA. So it's the Freedom of

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Speaker 4: Human Sex Trafficking Act, and it was. It's basically an

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Speaker 4: amendment to the Amendments, right, So it's a provision in

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Speaker 4: section two thirty now that states websites that facilitate, assist,

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Speaker 4: and support sex work or sex trafficking are no longer

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Speaker 4: covered by section two thirty. So Backpage was shut down.

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Speaker 4: And if you're not familiar with Backpage, it was like

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Speaker 4: a classified's website for sex workers. I actually first became

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Speaker 4: familiar with it when I saw my cousin on it

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Speaker 4: scantily clad offered at three hundred dollars an hour, and

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Speaker 4: I was like WHOA. I was like, this is a thing, right, and.

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Speaker 1: It's more explicit, right, And when you just said at

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Speaker 1: three hundred dollars an hour, like that's putting a price

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Speaker 1: tag on whereas seeking, which is now just seeking as

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Speaker 1: you write in your book, they drop the word arrangement

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Speaker 1: because arrangement is like, what's the arrangement on? Never mind,

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Speaker 1: it's just seeking. What are you seeking? Well, never mind

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Speaker 1: worry about there. It's not exploit it's not okay, this

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Speaker 1: act will be three hundred dollars for this amount of time.

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Speaker 1: It's more like we're going to kind of work it

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Speaker 1: out on our own ish, Like, what would explain the

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Speaker 1: difference is between Backpage and Seeking?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, good question. Backpage was more explicit, and they had reviews,

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Speaker 4: so sex worker or a John right would have reviews

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Speaker 4: of their profile on the website so that someone else

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Speaker 4: would know they were safe. So it was actually a

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Speaker 4: safer place for sex workers. And when it was shut down,

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Speaker 4: a lot of sex workers saw that as a bad

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Speaker 4: thing because this was a place where they could be safe,

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Speaker 4: and many of the people who were kicked off Backpage

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Speaker 4: went to Seeking because the website is intentionally anonymous, which

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Speaker 4: absolves predators right. But what Backpage was really doing and

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Speaker 4: why they got caught was because they were coaching their

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Speaker 4: members on what not to say and what not to

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Speaker 4: do on the web website, which Seeking does through winks

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Speaker 4: and nudges which basically are little slaps on the wrist

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Speaker 4: that say, oh no, no, no, don't do that on

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Speaker 4: the website, so they come back a little wiser.

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Speaker 1: Back page was explicit, but not totally explicit.

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Speaker 4: Sure, because they were trying to make it not seem

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Speaker 4: like that on the outside.

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Speaker 1: Would be like per hour, but we're not telling exactly

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Speaker 1: what that.

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Speaker 4: And they do that by flagging certain words and having

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Speaker 4: people agree to terms and conditions things like that that

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Speaker 4: basically teach them how to absolve themselves through the website,

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Speaker 4: and the website counts on those nudges to make themselves

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Speaker 4: not liable. So like, there's two parties that are liable, right,

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Speaker 4: is the users of the website and the website itself,

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Speaker 4: and the website pushes all of that blame onto the

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Speaker 4: users without taking any of the accountability itself. And how

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Speaker 4: did you?

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Speaker 5: People should read the book for the full story, but

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Speaker 5: could you just give us a quick, you know, explain

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Speaker 5: of how you got involved and then ultimately became disillusioned

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Speaker 5: with the experience.

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Speaker 4: I was told about the website by a friend, which

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Speaker 4: is usually how you're told about the website, and.

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Speaker 1: I was twenty one.

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Speaker 4: I was twenty one and I live in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: I mean, being twenty one in Las Vegas, you go

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Speaker 4: out a lot, you know, cute girls get paraded around

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Speaker 4: like we're a commodity right in Las Vegas. So it

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Speaker 4: really didn't seem that far off to me to seek

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Speaker 4: out rich guys or like, oh, I'm partying partying them

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Speaker 4: with them at the club all the time. Anyway, Like

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Speaker 4: what's the difference? You know? And I actually joined the

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Speaker 4: site because my friend told me they were doing a

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Speaker 4: reality show casting, so I was like, oh, like yeah,

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Speaker 4: the next kim Ka, you know, So that was really

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Speaker 4: in my mind. Like so I actually did end up

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Speaker 4: getting cast for the reality show, which was not a

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Speaker 4: reality show at all. It was a bunch of bs,

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Speaker 4: and I was coached and told to lie on behalf

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Speaker 4: of the company. I was also paid for my appearance,

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Speaker 4: which journalistic integrity dictates that you can't pay case studies.

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Speaker 4: So what they do is they make case studies sign

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Speaker 4: a contract that says they won't say they were paid.

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Speaker 4: But each and every case study is coached, paid and

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Speaker 4: coerced essentially and made to sign a contract that says

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Speaker 4: if they don't appear that they'll be sued. So they're scared.

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Speaker 4: And that changed a lot during the company. It got

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Speaker 4: more and more intense the contract did between the case

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Speaker 4: studies and the company.

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Speaker 1: When I was what are these case studies used for?

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Speaker 4: So sugar baby, sugar baby case studies essentially sex worker

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Speaker 4: case studies that go on air and say they're not

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Speaker 4: sex workers, and yeah, that's like in the contract is

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Speaker 4: you can't say you were paid for sex, when in

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Speaker 4: fact most of them certainly were. And the problem with

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Speaker 4: that is that it's a bunch of lies.

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Speaker 5: The sex is just downstream of the friendship and the fun.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but the problem with the psychology of it is

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Speaker 4: that the girls don't think they're sex workers because the

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Speaker 4: marketing told them that, so they don't. They don't think

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Speaker 4: they're sex workers, but they're willing to be paid for sex.

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Speaker 4: And the guys, oh, no, no, I'm not a john,

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Speaker 4: but i'll pay you for sex. So what the website

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Speaker 4: did is is codify that idea between the two that

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Speaker 4: absolves them of legal responsibility because neither one of them

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Speaker 4: think they're participating in sex work, right, so are they?

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Speaker 1: And what Matt Gates said in his defense was that

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Speaker 1: people were mistaking his generosity to his girlfriends for paying

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Speaker 1: for sex, And in reading your book, you can kind

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Speaker 1: of see that, like there's a bunch of the guys

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Speaker 1: that you're involved with are like buying your shoes or

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Speaker 1: like watches or and here's some money. It's walking around

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Speaker 1: money and to enjoy yourself. But then the sex is separate,

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Speaker 1: Like I mean, obviously it's not, but like you can

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Speaker 1: you can see how everybody involved rationalizes it and tells

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Speaker 1: themselves that. Although from your perspective, did you tell yourself

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Speaker 1: that in the beginning, or were you like, this is

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Speaker 1: a way for me to make money and get shoes

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Speaker 1: and stuff.

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Speaker 4: That's a very good distinction because there is both on

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Speaker 4: the website, right, Like at first I didn't think that's

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Speaker 4: what I was getting into, and then I realized, like

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Speaker 4: I was getting into that, and then I was like, okay,

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Speaker 4: pay me, and then I realized quickly that that's not

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Speaker 4: what I wanted. I was only paid for sex a

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Speaker 4: few times, like I would say directly, and I decided

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Speaker 4: that wasn't for me. And I really wanted a rich boyfriend,

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Speaker 4: someone to spoil me or whatever. And I guess that

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Speaker 4: does happen, but most of the time it's just people

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Speaker 4: straight up paying for sex, and the defense that, oh, no,

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Speaker 4: it was my girlfriend and I was being generous. That's

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Speaker 4: a great defense, like it, I mean, it is, yeah,

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Speaker 4: And that's not necessarily the problem I see, right, Like

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Speaker 4: it's not all bad, like a broken clock is right

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Speaker 4: twice a day. But that doesn't negate the fact that

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Speaker 4: this website is being used to lure coerce juveniles into

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Speaker 4: lives of sex work. And I've heard so many horror

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Speaker 4: stories about people who are threatened by their traffickers and

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Speaker 4: children who use this website because it's just a dating website.

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Speaker 4: So are you over eighteen? Yes, and you can get

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Speaker 4: on the website. While I was working there, there were

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Speaker 4: always people that were emailing us saying, hey, my daughter's

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Speaker 4: on the website, and it's hard to get them off

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Speaker 4: because there's no protections in place for the users. They

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Speaker 4: don't care about the users. They especially don't care about

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Speaker 4: the sugar baby users because sugar babies don't pay to

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Speaker 4: be on the site. Only sugar daddies pay to be

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Speaker 4: on the site, so the site is geared towards sugar

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Speaker 4: daddy preferences and indiscretions.

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Speaker 1: What would the response be in your experience from the company.

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Speaker 1: If a parent reached out and said, hey, daughter's on

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Speaker 1: this thing, an underaged My underage daughter is on this thing.

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Speaker 4: They would ask for her ID. But the problem with

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Speaker 4: that is the site is anonymous, so.

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Speaker 1: She could just open a new one.

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Speaker 4: She could just open another account or use someone else's ID.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people don't have pictures on the website

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Speaker 4: of themselves. Most of the men don't have pay pictures

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Speaker 4: at all. And that's the problem is when underage people

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Speaker 4: or predators, scammers, bad actors get kicked off the site,

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Speaker 4: they can just make new accounts. So it was my

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Speaker 4: observation while I was working there that they stopped kicking

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Speaker 4: them off because it was easier to keep track of

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Speaker 4: them when they weren't kicking them off, because they could

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Speaker 4: just make a new account. And especially for the sugar daddies,

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Speaker 4: it was a terrible user experience to be kicked off

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Speaker 4: the account and lose all your messages and have to

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Speaker 4: make a new email and all of this, so they

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Speaker 4: would just leave them on.

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Speaker 1: You're writing the book about the allure of the toxic

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Speaker 1: Prince Charming myth, and you a couple of minutes ago

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Speaker 1: you were saying like you were kind of hoping to

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Speaker 1: find a rich boyfriend that that would spoil you. So,

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Speaker 1: like talk a little bit about how that draws people

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Speaker 1: into the site.

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Speaker 4: People are disillusioned with the idea that they might get saved,

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Speaker 4: especially in the ecoun I mean we're in right now.

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Speaker 4: People don't see a way out, and most of the

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Speaker 4: girls on the website are susceptible, impoverished, vulnerable communities who

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Speaker 4: truly do see that as a way out. And I'm

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Speaker 4: not saying that never happens, because certainly it does. Like,

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Speaker 4: certainly there are relationships where he saves you, but that's

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Speaker 4: usually a myth, and most people on the website use

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Speaker 4: that farce to lure in people and trick them into

402
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Speaker 4: sex or whatever with that sort of false promise and

403
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,959
Speaker 4: the fact that we all kind of buy into that

404
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 4: Prince Charming fantasy is part of the problem. And you know,

405
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Speaker 4: social media adds to that, with people only posting their

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Speaker 4: best shots and glamorous vacations of you know, rented cars

407
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 4: and rented handbags and edited photos. Yeah, right, but people

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Speaker 4: believe that. And like Crystal actually mentioned something a couple

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Speaker 4: weeks ago that the online world is becoming more real

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Speaker 4: than the real world. And that's exactly what's happening here,

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Speaker 4: is people perceive what is real based on what's online,

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Speaker 4: but then what's actually happening is so much further from

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Speaker 4: that reality, but what's being perpetuated is what's online. So

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Speaker 4: it's this paradox that is like just absolutely confusing, and

415
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 4: it's happening at so many levels right now. So I mean,

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00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 4: that's what makes this really interesting is it's a layered

417
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Speaker 4: story that kind of reveals all these patterns that are

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Speaker 4: happening in a lot of places that have to do

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Speaker 4: with the anonymity of the Internet and of these demented

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Speaker 4: algorithms and an AI. Right when you think about these

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Speaker 4: populations of vulnerable, susceptible communities on this website that are

422
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Speaker 4: destitute looking for money, what would happen if we fed

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Speaker 4: that information to AI? How are we going to retarget

424
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Speaker 4: these vulnerable populations? What are we going to do to

425
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Speaker 4: those populations. It's very scary to think what the Internet

426
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 4: has created and what it's become. Obviously there's good and bad,

427
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 4: you know, two sides of the coin, but it's just

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Speaker 4: something to consider.

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Speaker 5: Well, and let me ask a really dumb question, is

430
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Speaker 5: there good and bad to seeking arrangements? Is there are

431
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 5: there case studies where people, do you know, sort of

432
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Speaker 5: use this service to pull themselves up by their proverberal

433
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 5: bootstraps and find their print charming and the website sort

434
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Speaker 5: of facilitated the happy ending. I guess that's a little

435
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 5: bit of a double entendre. But let's just take the

436
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 5: devil's advocate argument there Or.

437
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: Are there I'm sure you'd hear about college students who

438
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: are just making money on the side, or something like

439
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: do you like, what's your experience with that was at

440
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: all negative? Like what's your assessment of it?

441
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 4: I did meet many people who had good experiences. But

442
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 4: and however, if you think about how predators work, right,

443
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 4: if there is one good experience, if there is someone

444
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 4: who finds Prince charming, well they get off the site, right,

445
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 4: So that's one that's one percent. But the predators returned

446
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 4: to the site to bait their next mark, and one

447
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 4: predator can hit dozens, hundreds, thousands of users. There are

448
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 4: some men who've been using this website for nearly two decades, right,

449
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 4: they get older and the girls stay the same age.

450
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 4: And just because there are a few cases where it

451
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 4: does work out, it doesn't mean that a website that

452
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 4: directly targets and praise on vulnerable populations should be allowed

453
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 4: at all. And while I was working there, yeah, I

454
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 4: did hear some okay stories, But ninety nine percent of

455
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 4: the time the people who I met while I was

456
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: working there that were users of the website, they had

457
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 4: a horror story. For me. It was pretty shocking. And

458
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 4: when I was working there, I rationalized I was like, oh, well,

459
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 4: you know, they just always want to talk about the

460
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 4: bad stuff. But as I grew to be more aware,

461
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 4: I realized that it's actually mostly bad stuff.

462
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: And it seemed like it it's set up in a

463
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: way that girls and women are just it's set up

464
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: to lose in this. And there was one moment in

465
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: your in your book, and you can talk about this

466
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: a little bit, where you quit a job because you've

467
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: got a guy that you think is like now going

468
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: to start paying you and you need money and you

469
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: hit him up like hey I need money, and he

470
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: like ghosts you for like a week, and you realize, oh,

471
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: like I now I pushed too hard, which then tells

472
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: women that Okay, there's an arrangement, but it's an unspoken

473
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: kind of arrangement. And so if you push too hard,

474
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 1: then the big prize that you're looking for is never

475
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: going to come through, which then would allow ninety nine

476
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: percent of the guys there to just exploit that exactly.

477
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: So how like that basically seems like the most common

478
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: experience there.

479
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 4: Is that, right, absolutely correct? Yeah, And that's what I

480
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 4: learned through meeting many sugar babies and through my own experience,

481
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 4: was that in order to be successful, you have to

482
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 4: be complacent, which I think is common in lots of industries.

483
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 4: The ones who are good little sheep are elevated, and

484
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 4: that's what happens to sex workers as well, the ones

485
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 4: most off. Oh yeah, sure. And yeah, the second you

486
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 4: expose yourself as not being in love with him or

487
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 4: maybe being a little bit too holding him accountable for

488
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 4: his bad actions, then you don't get the money anymore.

489
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 4: So you're taught to be subservient and have sex easily

490
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 4: without question. And that's what young women are taught to

491
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 4: do in our society. Right They're being fed birth control pills,

492
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 4: telling being told that they can have casual sex and

493
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 4: you're empowered and in my opinion.

494
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 5: With no consequences except for empowerment.

495
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 4: With no consequences, of course, But what I've learned is

496
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 4: that's actually not biologically possible for women to have casual

497
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 4: sex because of the hormones that we excrete while we're

498
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 4: having it. And in my belief that the birth control

499
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: is a way to easily control women and to get

500
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 4: them to have sex easily without question, and the money

501
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 4: is a way to keep them doing that. So it's

502
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 4: really hard when you're when you're in it, and when

503
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 4: you're don't have a lot of money, and when you're

504
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 4: when your basic needs aren't being met, it's it's hard

505
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 4: to say, oh, don't go after that, like, don't chase money.

506
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 4: But the more you get older and the younger those

507
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 4: girls look, and as you're looking back, things look much differently.

508
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 4: And that's what I exactly try to dictate in this book.

509
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 5: Can I just say how powerful that is for a moment.

510
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 5: Because these websites, we don't get a lot of insight

511
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 5: into them. They're very you know, obviously hard to penetrate

512
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 5: the all of the layers because they're intentionally obfuscating what's

513
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 5: going on, and you don't hear a lot of perspectives

514
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 5: from people like yourself, who have come from one side

515
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 5: and have said you were literally the spokesperson like that

516
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 5: is to go from one to the other based on

517
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 5: your own experience and being honest with yourself and talking

518
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 5: about you know, I don't suspect that you're some like

519
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 5: evangelical Christian moralizer, but to come to that perspective, I

520
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 5: think on the sexual revolution and some of these technologies,

521
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 5: having you know, the double edged sword of something like

522
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 5: birth control, I just think that's really really powerful, and

523
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 5: it's probably.

524
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 4: Not easy to make that case in media.

525
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 5: So I don't know what your experience has been. Like

526
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 5: I was curious of actually going to ask you about

527
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 5: if I went back. I went back and looked at

528
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 5: some of the media coverage of seeking arrangements, and there

529
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 5: are some stories that are like almost glamorizing it, and

530
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 5: you were facing the media.

531
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 1: I pitched some of those stories.

532
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 5: You may have, yes, So did you find I mean,

533
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 5: I remember ABC did this kind of glamorous look at

534
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 5: only fans a couple of years ago. It was like

535
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 5: an episode of twenty t twenty I think, and I

536
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 5: remember just being like the only negative They spent like

537
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 5: a couple minutes on people potentially being subjected to violence

538
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 5: or something like that. I was like, nothing about the owners.

539
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 5: It was a lot about empowerment and nothing really about

540
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 5: the dark side of the business.

541
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: Did you find the media to be.

542
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 5: Kind of credulous when you sort of fed them the

543
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 5: feminist line or the sort of line about empowerment.

544
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And like you said, we don't get a

545
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 4: lot of insight into this, right, so media would use

546
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 4: it for sweeps as a clickbait article. And when media

547
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 4: does cover the website, or did cover the website, because

548
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 4: the coverage has kind of subsided, they lend credence to

549
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 4: the fact that it's not an illegal website, right because

550
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 4: if it was illegal, then it wouldn't be around and

551
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 4: the media wouldn't be covering it. So it basically solidifies

552
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: the idea in these young girls' heads that oh, it's

553
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 4: not that, because if it was, then what it on

554
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 4: twenty twenty? So it's very confusing. And yes, the realizations

555
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: I came to about feminism and third wave feminism particularly

556
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 4: that kind of failed us a bit. They are from

557
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 4: my own experiences, and you know, I'm sure some people

558
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 4: do feel as though they're empowered or whatever, But what

559
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: I found was that birth control made me crazy and

560
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 4: it not uncommon, and it distorted my perception of what

561
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 4: things really were. And once I got off of it,

562
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: I was a very different person. And while I was

563
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 4: working there, yeah, we were spoon feeding these narratives to media,

564
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 4: and the fact that the media is covering them made

565
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 4: me continue to do it. But also they pay people

566
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 4: so much at the company, Like I didn't come from money,

567
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: I was being paid more. There was more money than

568
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 4: I'd ever seen in my life. So when you stay quiet,

569
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 4: you get more money, and so it was very hard

570
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: to break that. And that's what happens to sex workers too.

571
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 5: Right, And what kind of man are you talking about,

572
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 5: by the way, Like it's it has to be. I

573
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 5: mean you're in Vegas and the money that's just in

574
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 5: Vegas alone is astronomical.

575
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 4: Do you mean how much did I make at the company? Well,

576
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 4: just like, what.

577
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 5: Does it look like when somebody who comes from a

578
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 5: background of not having a lot of money gets on

579
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 5: the website and can probably I would assume suddenly be

580
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 5: living a very very different lifestyle.

581
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 4: I mean, there is lots of money, it just depends

582
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 4: like some guys paid two hundred dollars, some guys will

583
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 4: give you two thousand dollars. It really just depends. But

584
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: I mean, by the law of supply and demand, there

585
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 4: are not enough sugar daddies to go around there. The

586
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 4: expendable income of these men simply does not exist. But

587
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 4: they use what the marketing that's seeking teas up and

588
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 4: they just go in there and they say, oh, no, no,

589
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: I'm going to take you to Aruba. I'm going to

590
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 4: do this, I'm going to do that. But the reality

591
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 4: is they're not going to. And I'm not saying that

592
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 4: men don't do that off the website, but a website

593
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 4: like this, the particularly praise on them. I mean, it's

594
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 4: just it's criminal, and it's actually a criminal BYFOSTA but

595
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 4: for some reason and it's not being prosecuted.

596
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: Are there any through lines on the men here or

597
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: is it just basically all men that you would that

598
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: you would encounter using this site?

599
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 4: Oh? I mean there were like sugar mommies on there,

600
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 4: like a few like No, I don't know.

601
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: What I mean is like the different kinds of men, Like,

602
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: were they any characteristics of men that make them more

603
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: likely to be on this this kind of site or

604
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: in your experience like the men that you meet there

605
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: are actually just the same as all men that you

606
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: meet in the real world.

607
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 4: No, they're not the same. If a man has been

608
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 4: on seeking arrangement or has paid for sex and is

609
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 4: not working on himself, he's not the girl for you, honey.

610
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 4: Like I promise, these men are missing something in their lives,

611
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 4: be it emotional maturity, intimacy. Most of the men on

612
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 4: the website are married, so they're not receiving what they

613
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: want from their wife. Maybe she's had a few kids

614
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 4: and he doesn't find her attractive anymore, or whatever it

615
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,239
Speaker 4: may be. But no, the men on the site are

616
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 4: not good guys. They do not come to the website

617
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: because they're just good philanthropic guys. That's not how it works.

618
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 4: And I think the prince charming fantasy is like rooted

619
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 4: in our culture, so we're taught to believe it.

620
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: Pretty Woman, the movie Pretty Woman.

621
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Pretty Woman pipe dream. Yes, lots of sex

622
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 4: workers think that's going to happen. But I just don't

623
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 4: think that Richard Gear's character in that movie is such

624
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 4: a good guy if he really has to pay a

625
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 4: sex worker, Because think about it, like, a real good

626
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 4: rich guy has plenty of options. He doesn't need to

627
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 4: go to a site like this, So it just it

628
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense to me. It begs the question why

629
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 4: did you come to that website in the first place.

630
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 5: Can I actually ask about the term sex work? Because

631
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 5: I have mixed feelings on it myself. On the one hand,

632
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 5: it's an oxymoron that you know, or I think it

633
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 5: should be culturally considered an oxymoron. On the other hand,

634
00:33:53,240 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 5: there's something powerful about conflating sex and work and sort

635
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 5: of telling in and of itself. But I know a

636
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 5: lot of people, especially in the right, are very uncomfortable

637
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 5: with it because they think it normalizes exploitation, that work

638
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 5: and exploitation are necessarily different. So when you are thinking

639
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 5: about that, and this gets to the question about whether

640
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 5: it's possible to do quote unquote sex work ethically, how

641
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 5: do you think about that term yourself.

642
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 4: I use the term because prostitution has this like negative connotation,

643
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 4: and that people in the industry prefer the term sex work.

644
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 4: And it's also all encompassing, so sex work isn't just

645
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 4: having sex for money, it's actually sexual services as well.

646
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 4: So only fans, models, porn stars, anyone who is doing

647
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 4: sex acts or sexual services and then receiving money for that.

648
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 4: It sort of encompasses everyone. And I mean as far

649
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 4: as porn and stuff like that goes like, yeah, it's

650
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 4: a very damaging industry. And as far as like do

651
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 4: I think sex work should be legal in terms of

652
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 4: like prostitutes or sex workers? I mean, I think people

653
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 4: should make their own decisions. That's why I wrote the book,

654
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 4: because I want them to make their decisions after reading

655
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 4: my book with more context that you don't hear from

656
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 4: the media's we just talked with more context exactly. I

657
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 4: would not wish sex work on my worst frenemy. It's

658
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 4: the most haunting and horrifying money you will ever make.

659
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 4: And I worked for seeking arrangement, so I can tell

660
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 4: you that. But it's hard to explain that to a

661
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 4: young girl who has no money and she sees this

662
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 4: website where she thinks she can make easy money with

663
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 4: her body and what's the big deal? Well, hand her

664
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 4: my book please, I'll tell you what the big deal is.

665
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: And you had a line in here that I thought

666
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: was quite profound about the money that you eventually were making,

667
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: but professionally as a employee rather than through the sex work,

668
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: And so you talk about the first transatlantic flight that

669
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: you ever took, and you get booked in a business

670
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: class and you write, I recline the seat into a bed,

671
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: just like I've seen in the movies. It feels like

672
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: I'm scratching the surf of stardom. I resist taking Instagram

673
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: photos and just soak it in the sparkling wine, greeting,

674
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: the zippered bag with an eyemask and socks and the

675
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: tiny cup of warm nuts. This is the luxury a

676
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,479
Speaker 1: sugar baby should experience. And I didn't need to sell

677
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: my body, just my soul. That last part of that

678
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: line really struck me because it's because it goes to

679
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: the way that everybody's selling something to get to that place.

680
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: Because can you talk a little bit about that evolution

681
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: that you went through.

682
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: I mean, like I mentioned earlier, people who are complicit

683
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 4: and who are willing to sell their souls are the

684
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 4: ones who are elevated and the ones who get business

685
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 4: class paid for by the traffickers. Because I was complicit,

686
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: and I think they elevated me because I was a

687
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 4: sugar baby and because I was okay with selling my body.

688
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 4: So that's why they chose me, and I think that

689
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 4: happens at many levels. I think it's happening in celebrity

690
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 4: right now now as we're learning, you know, many of

691
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 4: these child stars were preyed upon, you know, and that's

692
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 4: why they were elevated, and then they turn around and

693
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 4: prey on other people. And that's exactly what happened to me.

694
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 4: Is I was told a young age that this was okay,

695
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 4: and then as I got older, I was like, oh,

696
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 4: this is okay, Like this is what people do. I

697
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 4: was told this by people who were older than me,

698
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 4: and now I'm older and now it's okay. But the

699
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 4: more I became an adult and I had my own

700
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 4: coming of age working there, I started when I was

701
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 4: twenty two, I left when I was twenty seven, and

702
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 4: you really start to see things differently, and those girls

703
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 4: start to look so much younger, and you realize that

704
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 4: you can't let them sell their souls, like we need

705
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 4: to protect our children from this. And I know it's

706
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: an awkward conversation to have with your kids, but the

707
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 4: fact that we're not having that conversation is why they're

708
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 4: being lured to this website in the first place.

709
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: And maybe Emily's too young to have had this experience.

710
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: But like when I go to a college campus now

711
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: and look around, like, wow, these are kids. They look

712
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: so young, And I think about myself when I was

713
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen, I didn't think of myself as young, just

714
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: getting thought. I thought it was yeah, I thought I

715
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 1: was just as big as everybody else.

716
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 5: Being Irish.

717
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: But I was just a kid. And now it's so

718
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: clear to me when I look around a college campus.

719
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: So how did you get to that place? Was it

720
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: just slowly day by day or was there was there

721
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: a moment? Although you talk about getting laid off, so

722
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: in some ways, after this legislation was passed, the website

723
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: thinks it's going under. You guys get laid off, So

724
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: in some ways the decision was made for you. How

725
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: did you then, like what was your own moral evolution?

726
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 4: Like I wanted to leave the company for a long time.

727
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 4: I was already looking for other jobs, but they were

728
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 4: paying me like six figures and I had no skills,

729
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 4: so I couldn't find another high paying job. And I

730
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 4: had already set myself up for an expensive life because

731
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 4: I was young. And that's what you do when you're young,

732
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 4: and you make a bunch of you spend it. So

733
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 4: my evolution actually came after I worked for the company

734
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: and after I was laid off. When the Matt Gates

735
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 4: scandal broke in twenty twenty one, I was reached out

736
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: to by The New York Times and by ABC twenty twenty,

737
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 4: who flew me out. ABC flew me out to New

738
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 4: York put me up, had a day of production buzzing

739
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 4: around me back at the beginning of twenty twenty two,

740
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 4: and I told them my whole story, and I felt

741
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 4: very seen by them, and by the New York Times,

742
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 4: felt very seen. I thought that these big conglomerates, these

743
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 4: hard hitting news pieces would really expose the website. And

744
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 4: I felt like the journalists really understood me, and they

745
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 4: knew that this website was a smoke and mirrors show

746
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 4: for what's truly going on, which is like victimization and

747
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 4: sex trafficking and mass and you know, those stories never

748
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 4: came out, and those journalists don't talk to me anymore.

749
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 4: And why do you think that is? Now? You're asking

750
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 4: the right questions, like I don't know, but I you know,

751
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 4: four years ago, back then, I was a normy reading

752
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 4: the New York Times and watching ABC and thinking I

753
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 4: was well informed, and it was through my own personal

754
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 4: experiences that I began to distrust mainstream media. And actually

755
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 4: that's how I found breaking points. I was talking to

756
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 4: a guy and telling him about my distrust and he

757
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 4: was like, you remind me of Crystal Ball many such cases. Yeah,

758
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 4: And I was like, who's that? And now I'm flattered.

759
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 4: But then I was like who is this? I was

760
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 4: like what is this? Like what are they talking about?

761
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 4: Like why? Why have I never heard of this before?

762
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 4: And that's what pushed me to find independent media and

763
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 4: independent journalism and become so obsessed with you guys. I

764
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 4: love the show. And I actually ended up finding Whitney Webb,

765
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 4: who is the author of One Nation Under Blackmail. She

766
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 4: wrote a two volume book about Jeffrey Epstein's financial crimes

767
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 4: and then his sex crimes later on. And I was

768
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 4: trying to find a publisher at the time, and lots

769
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 4: of the big agencies would nibble, but no bites. No

770
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: one was interested in this. And I wrote a badass

771
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 4: book proposal, so I knew there was money to be

772
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 4: made and I couldn't get anyone to take it up.

773
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 4: But I'm just like, what's going on? And then I

774
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 4: heard Whitney Webb talk about her publisher and she's like,

775
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 4: this is a guy who publishes books that people are

776
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 4: scared to publish, and I was like, I need to

777
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: talk to that guy. And that's my publisher trying day.

778
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 4: So I'm very appreciative of them taking a chance on me.

779
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: I think it's going to pay off. But yeah, I mean,

780
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 4: if there's a Normy in your life that is worshiping

781
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 4: ABC and The New York Times, send this segment to them.

782
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 4: They need to know that these mainstream organizations do not

783
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 4: have you in their thoughts or their prayers. Your best

784
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 4: interest or public interest is not of their concern. They

785
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 4: care about cornflakes and ozebic and politicians and lobbyists. That's

786
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 4: who they're beholden to. And I learned that through personal experience,

787
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 4: So it definitely changed the tune of the book. And

788
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 4: what I try to expose is how the news is

789
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 4: made at those mainstream organizations, which is their fed lies

790
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 4: by criminal pr reps like I did, and then they

791
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 4: pair it those lies to the public who willingly believe

792
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 4: them and join the site and do lots of other

793
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 4: things because they believe what's being parroted by these news organizations,

794
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 4: and as Crystal says, they're crumbling, and I think they're

795
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: I think this election has been super insane and has

796
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 4: shown people how much they're crumbling.

797
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: Now, you're right at the end of the book that

798
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: in exchange for your severance you signed an NDA. Are

799
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: you in trouble, like, are they coming after you? What's

800
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: the what's the situation there, because obviously you're speaking, I.

801
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 4: Am speaking, and I did sign an NDA. And the

802
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 4: thing about NDAs is they can't be used to cover

803
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 4: criminal enterprises. So I have a great lawyer, and I

804
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 4: was expecting to receive a season desist or perhaps a

805
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 4: lawsuit or something like that from the company. But I

806
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 4: haven't received one. Nothing yet.

807
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I do have one

808
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 5: last question on that criminal enterprises point.

809
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 4: Because it's full circle with the Gates thing. We're just talking.

810
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 5: You were just talking about the kind of corruption that

811
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 5: is almost fueled by disinterest in the press and just

812
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 5: sort of by the political business establishment. So with Matt Gates,

813
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 5: there's a question of whether he's compromised because his potential

814
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 5: sex with minors is sort of used and has been

815
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 5: used as a weapon, and if it's true, it's fairy

816
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 5: use of a weapon. If it's not true, it's obviously problematic.

817
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 5: And so I guess do you have insight into how

818
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 5: seeking arrangements And I'm sure this is also true of OnlyFans.

819
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 5: I'm sure it was true of Backpage can be used

820
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 5: to compromise. I mean, did you see situations were either

821
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 5: intelligence informants that type of thing, or very powerful people

822
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 5: were entangling themselves in these quote unquote arrangements in ways

823
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 5: that could be affecting business and politics just by virtue

824
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 5: of the people who were involved.

825
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 4: I saw on the website myself when I was working there,

826
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 4: policemen using the website to lure men interesting operations or whatever.

827
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 4: I remember when that happened. Originally, my boss told me

828
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 4: to go through the users and see if I could

829
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 4: find anyone who was a cop who was doing that,

830
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 4: because that's against our terms, you know. So I did that,

831
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 4: and all I did was just type in police into

832
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 4: the like email search bar, and there were so many

833
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 4: that came up, people using their using their police email

834
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 4: addresses on the website, and so I was like, oh man,

835
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 4: there's a ton on here, and so I start clicking

836
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,439
Speaker 4: them and they're users of the site, And I was like, oh,

837
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 4: I don't think he's like trying to lure anyone. And

838
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 4: I think he's.

839
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: Trying to lure but to get his own Yes.

840
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 4: And I heard from many girls on the website that

841
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,439
Speaker 4: they were involved with politicians, very high profile people. And

842
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 4: I mean the website's entirely anonymous, so I don't know

843
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 4: who's the user of the site who's not. I mean,

844
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: if they're smart, they're not putting their picture on there,

845
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 4: they're not using their information and they don't have to.

846
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 4: I mean, is it being used as a honeypot? Is

847
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 4: it being used for sex trafficking? Yes? Yes, one hundred

848
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 4: and ten percent. Yes, that's exactly what Joel Greenberg did, right,

849
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 4: And I read too that he got the girl of

850
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 4: Fake ID because of his status.

851
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: Then yeah, he was like the register of whatever.

852
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 5: Seminole County tax collector.

853
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, so king of Florida.

854
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

855
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 4: I mean I don't know of any personally, but I

856
00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 4: do know that.

857
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: That happened an intelligence operation. I would send money traps

858
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: onto the site in DC and New York, oh La.

859
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 4: Vega, of course, yeah, yeah, And I'm sure they do.

860
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 4: I mean I didn't I don't know about that, like

861
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 4: through evidence, but I know about that anecdotally because I've

862
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 4: heard about it many times. So interesting.

863
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I mean again, just your perspective is very

864
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 5: much underrepresented in the media conversations about these services.

865
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 4: So thank you, Thank you so much for having me.

866
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: And so the book is Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge by

867
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Speaker 1: Brooke Urick. You can find it wherever you buy books.

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Speaker 1: I guess on online sexual exploits and secrets from inside

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Speaker 1: a Sugar Natty website. Brook thanks for joining us, Thanks

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Speaker 1: for watching.

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Speaker 4: Thank you