WEBVTT - "Be Courageous"; Jury Deliberating NOW in Grief Author Murder Trial 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.720 Hey, that folks, closing arguments are done and the jury 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:19.280 is deliberating and the so called grief author murder trial 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:24.239 are also called the poisoned husband murder trial. But jury 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:28.680 deliberations got underway and it didn't take long before things 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:30.680 got interesting. And with that, welcome to this episode of 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.200 Amy and TJ. Rose. We expect and always gets interesting 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.239 when you get notes from the jury. Didn't expect one 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:36.680 this quickly. 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.159 Yeah, this one happened ten twelve minutes into jury deliberations, 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.200 so no time at all and kind of a confusing note, 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.400 but seems like they were able to give them some instructions, 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.400 but they were already asking questions. 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:52.120 You know what this said to me, they are really 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.240 taking this seriously, because we looked at the note and 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.120 saw what they were asking, Like, what exactly are they asking? 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.680 What does that mean? What did it say again? Factual 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.520 stipulation question mark And that was all it said. They 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.120 sent a note according and again as we record, there's 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.160 the jury only got the case literally minutes ago, and 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.160 they said before they even got into the jury room 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.200 for the most part, they handed a note to a 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:19.400 bailiff asking a question about a factual stipulation something. They 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.960 expected the judge to give them some instruction and he 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.199 forgot to do so maybe, but I thought it was cool, like, wow, 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:27.160 they are really. 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:27.759 They're on top of it. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.000 Yeah, that's what it said. 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.120 They on top of things, and I think that's probably 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.080 good news for both sides and the fact that you 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.840 want a fully engaged jury that is ready to really 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.560 carefully go through all the testimony. 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.360 So they had to. We had an episode one right 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:48.520 before this, going through the prosecution's closing argument. They did 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:50.240 get a rebuttal. We'll get into that a little bit, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.360 just didn't take as long, but now we'll go through 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:58.760 what the defense Their theme, I guess was during their 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.840 closing argument and roll it was pretty clear pretty early 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.360 they tried to humanize her and they harped on this 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:10.200 point reasonable doubt. They are beating that into the ground. 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.080 What is reasonable doubt? And they're trying to put every 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:15.960 bit of evidence into question. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:16.520 That's right. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.000 In fact, they said, if you think she maybe did it, 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.680 if you think she probably did it, if you think 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.640 it's very likely that she did it, you still have 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.440 to find Corey Ritchin's not guilty. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.160 I thought that was interesting, which. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:35.080 Actually isn't the legal threshold, right, But they kept telling 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.680 the jury everything the lawyer's saying closing is not evidence. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.760 But the lawyers can say what they want to say. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.119 And yet Rome they're beating this thing into the ground 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.120 reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt. Did you think it was effective? 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.680 They were essentially saying everything that the prosecution is telling you, 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:59.000 we have a reasonable explanation on the other side that 0:02:59.040 --> 0:02:59.520 counters it. 0:02:59.760 --> 0:02:59.959 Yeah. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.240 Yes, And I think they made the point very clear 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.440 that there was no direct evidence. 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.120 This was all circumstantial. 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:12.000 There is no way that the state or prosecutors could 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.720 actually without. 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.520 Doubt tell jurors how. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.800 How Eric Richins ingested the lethal dose of fentanyl. And 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.639 that is true. And then I also thought it was interesting. 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.560 It seemed a little hokey. They had some visuals up, 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.480 but the defense started with the state looks at facts 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.480 one way and sees a which but if you look 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.240 at those same facts another. 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:38.880 Way, you will see a widow. 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.240 And so they were asking the jury not to take 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.880 all of the examples of how she grieved, how she reacted, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.360 what she said and did in that body cam footage, 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.760 what she sounded like in that nine one one call. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.880 They were trying to make the point you don't know 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.280 how one person grieves versus another. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:00.400 You know, they spend less go to that because they 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.560 spend a lot of time on that, And it makes 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.280 a fair point, does it not? Robes? How are we 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.160 don't send a woman to prison for the rest of 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.840 our life punish her because she's not grieving the way 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.680 you think she should grieve. It's the worst moment of 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.840 her life and you're going to judge her for it. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.479 That's a fair It's kind of a reasonable point, is 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:17.719 it not. 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:18.719 Yes? 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:23.559 And they had to go there because the prosecution putting 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:28.440 up that video the next day of shots and laughter 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.920 and celebrations where Corey Richards and her friends say they 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.520 were celebrating Eric Richon's life, but it looks like she's. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:36.440 Celebrating his death. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.640 And that is certainly how prosecutors tried to present it 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.719 to the jury. And it does feel icky watching, but 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.320 that was just another example of how they were saying 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.400 to the jury. The defense was, you, every person grieves differently, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.080 every person reacts differently. 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:56.560 And this is where the defense attorney injected herself into this. 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:02.160 She actually said she lost her a number of years back, 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.960 and she said based on what I have learned in 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.159 this case. I didn't grieve appropriately. She didn't go into details, 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.080 but she put herself into it, and that was a 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:13.680 moment at least you sit up. And that was a 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.840 personal story there about how one grief. Bro I don't 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:21.080 know what to do with that. What is one supposed 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.880 to do when they grieve? I can tell you I've 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.440 seen grief. I've seen it up close. I've seen it 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.640 in movies, I've seen it in real life videos. You 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.680 get a general idea of how people behave when they grieve. 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.440 But I don't know. I thought that was a fair point. 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.599 How can I judge her put her in prison the 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.320 rest of her life because I say, how she's supposed 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:46.000 to react to her husband being dead. 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.680 I thought the defense scored points with that, and I 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.240 do think they scored points by really bringing that home 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.200 that did such an individual experience, and just this they 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.760 were truly trying to humanize her throughout it all, talking 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:06.560 about how when she left Eric initially this is when 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.960 she claims he died, and she did know it because 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:10.920 she went to go laid down with her child because 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.000 her child was having nightmares, because her child needed her. 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.160 They were trying to create the mother, the human, not 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:22.040 this black widow, this premeditated evil woman who was trying 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.360 to kill her her husband for money. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.320 I thought some of that. There were several times where 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.960 it was obvious where they said she did this just 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.720 like any parent would kind of a thing, and it 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.279 was obviously. I don't know how effective it might have been, 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:42.080 but this was happening, Robes, this was okay, fine, let's 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.880 do this now and right. She's innocent to proven guilty. 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.600 But a big part of this in the conversation in 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.200 the last couple of days have had to do with 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:53.600 her reactions, how she has behaved in the courtroom and 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.800 the faces she has made and whatever else. And the 0:06:55.800 --> 0:07:00.960 prosecutor used that in his clothing Robes today it look, 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.719 how do you judge what she was doing? I don't know. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:11.240 But what she was doing today was smirking. She was 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.920 reacting sarcastically even in some of her faces and reactions 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.120 to what she was hearing from the prosecution. How that 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.960 plays for a jury, I don't know. But today she 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:26.000 almost in her reaction Robes kind of countered the sweet 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.960 lady they were trying to create in the narration. 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.240 I agree, So just as we could see her face. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.440 You know, the jury is looking at her face, and 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:38.360 while the prosecutor was giving his closing arguments, she was 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.880 rolling her eyes. She had a smug look on her face, 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.400 and look, I imagine I was trying to give her 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.680 some grace and say, Okay, if someone was saying the 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.520 worst possible things about me, I don't have a poker face. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.360 I likely probably would roll my eyes too, maybe out 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.440 of frustration and annoyance, and just like, are you kidding me? 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:58.880 That is not what happened, That is not what I did. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.280 That is not so there could be that, and you 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.720 could give her that. But I have seen Look, there 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.720 are there's rolling commentary in a lot of these feeds, 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.520 and a lot of people watching this just at home, 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.160 just people who like to watch trials. They were all 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.760 commenting on someone needs to wipe that look off her face. 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.520 I don't think it. Definitely wouldn't. It didn't do her 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:21.160 any good. 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.360 And I guess the only hope would be if you're 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.200 the defense is that you're looking at it saying, well, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.280 what would that be like if somebody were making up 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:31.520 lies about me? Yeah? 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.320 That was It didn't look good. 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.800 Oh my god, you know, I've just had a flashback 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:42.439 to a stand up. How do you react when you're innocent? 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.120 How do you behave when you're innocent and you're being 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.640 accused of something? She doesn't. People can judge it, and 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.600 people are the way you said, but she she's not 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.320 coming off necessarily as an innocent woman. She's coming off 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.920 smug in some of this, and that is the best 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.360 way to put it. She needs to wipe that look 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:00.880 off her face. 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.520 That's what people were saying, because what it ends up 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:08.160 looking like you're seeing, you're getting a window into her 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.960 personality that she's used to being right, She's used to 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.040 getting things her way, she's used to not having to 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.800 There's just this like entitlement about her reactions that make 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:20.960 her not likable. 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:22.280 And that is what I was saying. 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.880 And the problem is that Robes plays into the storyline 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.320 of the prosecution of who she is. It actually is 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.600 matching up. Let's talk about this video you mentioned a 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.839 second ago. You said during it, like earlier during this drin, 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.200 I might have missed this video, but to see it 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.040 this is the day after or then yeah. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.480 The day after the day after he died. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.800 Bro, this is this is what they ended with so 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:51.199 the the video is of her who took this video, 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:51.520 By the. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.600 Way, I think they were just there were some of 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:54.400 her friends. 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.440 I don't know if there were some of Eric's friends, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.200 but the couple's friends, the kids, the sons. I I 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.000 remember when I first saw it, thinking, even if that 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.160 is something people do where they celebrate someone's life the 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:10.040 next day after someone tragically and suddenly dies, it seems 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.520 like a tough emotion to feel that quickly when something 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.120 is so sudden. Like I understand if somebody was slowly 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.400 dying of cancer and you prepared for it, and when 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.800 they passed, you could celebrate, like there'd be a different feeling. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:22.760 But this was shocking. 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.600 This was sudden, this was unexpected, and these poor kids 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.360 are reeling. And to see adults taking shots, laughing and 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:34.360 going to Eric, it just seemed so out of touch 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:39.040 tonally to even put it mild and it was friends, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:40.240 it was her, okay. 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.120 And this is so this after the defense finished with 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.199 their closing, the prosecution gets the last words, so they 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.000 get a rebuttal. They get to come back up and 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.360 kind of close things out and robes this is what 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.640 that video they used. That's one of the last things 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.840 the jury sees before they go into deliberation. That is 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.679 impactful to me because I'm seeing it for the first time. 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.560 Fully today hopes her husband died the day before. You 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:13.800 see laughter, giddy. This looks celebratory. I've been to funerals 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.160 we call them, yes, celebrations of life, and they are 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.080 parties and they are they have good energy and joy, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.400 but they don't look like this. This looked like not 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.000 a celebration of his life, but a celebration of his death. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.440 That's two different things. That's how it comes off. Judged 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.440 for yourselves with robes and I don't know what context 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.080 you put this in for this to make sense. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.600 That's I think that was a really, really tough visual 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.160 for them to actually be able to fully explain. Now, Look, 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.400 it wasn't just Corey. Her friends were there too. So 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.000 if she were doing it like with her and her 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.320 three or four of love her, but there were several people, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.679 several adults there, So look, I don't know she was saying. 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.040 I believe the defense attorney was saying, She's Irish and 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.120 they celebrate life and this is part of what so 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.360 you know, culturally speaking, I couldn't I wouldn't. I've never 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.280 seen anything like that, but they say that's part of 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:07.800 what they do. 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:13.640 Well, stay here, folks. The defense had answers for everything. 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.400 They really did have a let me explain approach to 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.040 the whole case if you will, we'll explain that. And 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:25.240 one guy sat in that courtroom today and had his 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:41.480 entire reputation eviscerated by the defense. Stay here, are continuing 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.800 here on Amy and TJ. That lead investigator had a 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.360 It was tough to sit through that. Today the defense 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.800 giving their closing arguments in the Cory Richion's trial, and 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.920 they went after really, they went after the rich and 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:59.520 family to some degree, saying that they were responsible for 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.160 putting the police down this wrong path and pushing the 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.680 investigation and making sure it was Corey Richins who was charged. 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.520 But Ropes. She went after the lead investigator and they 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.439 kept doing cutaways of him in the courtroom. This was uncomfortable. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:14.760 That was when it got uncomfortable. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.880 They just stayed on Detective Jeff O'Driscoll's face, who has 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.000 sat I think in court I believe every single day 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.600 through all the testimony. But he got to hear Yes, 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.000 the defense attorney take a tactic that we've seen many, many, 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.720 many defense attorneys take just of course, attack the investigation, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.160 attack the lead investigator, say that he didn't do his job, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.319 that he created a theory, that he decided what happened 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.280 and then found evidence to fit his theory. 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:43.600 We see this all the time. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.200 And so just go after the investigators, go after the 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.040 police to deflect from any culpability your client may have. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.160 Does that work? I mean, is that effective? I don't 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:57.040 know this jury as much as we watched of this case, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.080 which and I really do believe we saw at these 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.680 ninety percent of all the timemoni in this case, I mean, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.280 wrote Rose, they were paying attention closer than we are. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.079 I'm always surprised by jury's I have no idea what 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:07.840 these folks are under. 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.280 That lead investigator came off to me as a straight shooter, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.400 like he just came off as a guy. Now he 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.640 got a little testy with the defense. He was definitely 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.400 not willingly helping them in any way. Well, he was defensive, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.760 he was a little defensive, but he was getting attacked. Sure, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.320 but yes, he definitely got eviscerated in the closing argument 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.480 today and then in her let me explain moment, I 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.400 actually appreciated some of this, and I thought some of 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.120 this did land, especially when she was explaining why Corey 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.120 deleted messages, why she searched about whether or not police 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.840 could find deleted messages once they took your phone, and 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.240 she said this, she was having an affair. She didn't 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.320 want her husband's family to know that she was having 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.200 an affair. She didn't want police to know she was 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.480 having an affair. So, yeah, she was deleting messages. That 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.440 made sense to me again that I could get that now, 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:56.200 it also. 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.840 Makes sense she might delete them because the affair gives 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.920 motive for the murder. Just all kinds of stuff. This, 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:03.600 This is why I don't like circumstances cases. 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:04.200 This is tough. 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.680 And then in terms of the suspicious searches that they 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.200 said she found, including about expensive female. 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:11.040 Or sorry, what was it. 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.520 It was jails or prisons, rich for the rich, And 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.520 they were saying, yeah, she was being investigated for murder. 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.200 She was nervous, she was concerned, she started looking at 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.840 what her options. By me, that was a little tougher 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:23.120 for me. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.560 Okay, I didn't know where he was a little. 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:26.000 Tougher for me. 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.760 But then when she said that, Look, we didn't know 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.760 what they were going to say about the housekeeper and 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.360 Carmen Lauber and how they were going to get around 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.280 this testimony that Carmen Lawber said that she got pills, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.600 she got drugs for Corey Richards. Well, they basically admitted 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.520 that she asked Carmen for pain or if she asked 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.440 Carmen for pain pills, that doesn't mean she asked her 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.920 for fentanyl. And it certainly doesn't mean that she killed 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.520 her husband. That's fair, Okay, that's one of the things. 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.400 They have an answer for everything. Is it reasonable? I 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.200 don't know if this, this collection, this preponderance of evidence, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.880 all taken together, is circumstantial enough that I am really 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:08.680 supposed to not use my common sense. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:10.920 You're supposed to use your common sense. 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.400 But I don't know. This is why I hate circumstantial cases. 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.360 I was confused too, because when the defense told the 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.920 jury what we said at the beginning, even if you 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.680 think she probably did it, you still cannot convict. 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.880 You can't. That's the whole point. You don't have to 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.520 be convinced one hundred percent. That is the thing. And yes, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.880 the defense, excuse me, the prosecutor got up, and that 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.240 was the first thing in his rebuttal. He put up 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.360 a graphic, Actually, what reasonable doubt means and what you're 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.280 supposed to consider, and it doesn't mean there there are 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.840 very few things that you know beyond a reasonable doubt 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.480 excuse me, of absolute certainty. There's almost nothing that's not 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.160 the I'm not one hundred percent you're not an alien, right, 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.400 I'm pretty sure. But can I know that one hundred percent? 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:54.720 No? 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:59.520 I don't so. No, it's that reasonable doubt thing is 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:04.000 so fat, it's this slighty. It seems some weird scale. 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.119 I'm just a smoking gun kind of a juror. 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.439 Well, yes, it's wonderful when you can actually have fingerprints, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.120 forensic evidence that puts you on the scene with motive. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.240 CSI every single episode, but this case did not have that. 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.280 And I actually really liked I will say, just from 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.720 the effectiveness of it. The way the prosecutor ended his rebuttal, 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.119 this was the final sentence the jurors heard, see through 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.800 her facade, check her ambition, and do not let her 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.080 get away with murder. 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:41.760 I thought that was effective. 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.520 I don't know, you know it so far what I've 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.960 seen from this jury, they they are taking this job seriously. 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:51.879 And oh yeah, by the way, and utah, it's a 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:57.520 jerors eight eight. So they just let four alternates go today. 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.760 So they yes, they had twelve sitting there, but four 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.600 alternates were sent home. They are still supposed to be 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.720 on standby in case somebody gets six but out sick. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:08.520 But out there it's only eight. 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.360 That is fascinating. And look the other thing. 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:16.800 So where we have the prosecution telling the jury don't 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:19.760 let her get away with murder, you have the defense 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.720 attorney telling the jurors, and she said this more than once, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:28.920 to be brave, be courageous, find Corey Richins not guilty. 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:30.920 And so it was just. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:35.480 Fascinating how they were appealing to the jury's emotions. Be brave, 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:40.679 be courageous, don't send this innocent woman to prison. On 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.560 one hand, and on the other you have quite the opposite. Basically, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.280 check her ambition, see. 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:47.800 Through her facade. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:48.560 What's your prediction. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.440 I am going to predict that she is going to 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.040 be found not guilty. I'm sorry, wooh, that was wrong. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:56.919 I am going to protict that she is going to 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:02.960 be found guilty. M look on murder charges. I don't 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.080 know about the attempted murder. I don't know that that 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.719 was as strong in terms of what I saw and 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:13.080 heard from the testimony, But I feel like once they 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.119 convict her of murder, they're. 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.240 Probably just going to find her guilty. 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.919 Here, Oh yeah, we murder, We forget there's fraud and 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:19.919 all kinds of other stuff. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.359 And once she find her guilty of the big charge, 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.840 aggravated murder, it probably the rest will follow. 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:29.480 I don't know what I would if I was forced 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.200 to put money on it. I would go probably a 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:37.360 hung jury first after that, not guilty after that guilty. 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.000 I don't know why. There's something about these types of 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.840 cases and these types of defendants sometimes robes. We've seen 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:49.840 Karen Reid that juries can be very sympathetic. Now she 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.520 is not necessarily a sympathetic character. They didn't say, well, 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.600 she was abused, or he was cheating on her, or 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.240 I mean, even though he was, but she was cheating 0:19:57.280 --> 0:19:59.959 as well. I'm just saying she doesn't. They didn't make 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.520 the case that she is some battered woman kind of 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.480 a thing, so that might play into it, But I 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.199 just circumstantial cases are so hard for me. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.040 I know I would the media the cases that immediately 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.600 came up Karen Reid and Casey Ans. Those are Casey Anthony. 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:16.800 Remember that one also surprised me. That was a not 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.560 guilty verdict. That shocked me beyond belief. But you never know, 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:22.720 No one ever knows what juries are going to do. 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.280 We'll find out that, I guess in a little well, 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.200 we'll jump on, of course if anything were to happen. 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.560 But it looks like most likely the jury will keep 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.679 deliberating until court ends for the day. They are two 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.160 hours behind us here on the East Coast, so likely 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.879 the jury will pick back up with the deliberations tomorrow. 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:40.120 Warne. 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:41.720 What didn't he tell them though? What was it? He 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.359 told him that he was giving them so long, going 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:44.120 to check in with him. 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:45.840 He was going to check in with them, and the 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.360