1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,920
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Benchmark is brought to you by Stage Summit, the

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: world's largest gathering of small and medium businesses, featuring Sir

3
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:12,280
Speaker 1: Richard Branson. July Chicago. Register with promo code business at

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,959
Speaker 1: stage summit dot com for justin and there's no way

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 1: that you can pay back a billion dollars stadium with

6
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:29,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of hot dogs and beer. Hi, and welcome

7
00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199
Speaker 1: back to Bloomberg Benchmark, the show about the global economy.

8
00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: It's Thursday July and I'm Kate Smith, an editor for

9
00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News here in New York. I'm joined today in

10
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,240
Speaker 1: the studio by my co host, Dan Moss, Executive editor

11
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 1: for Economics. Hi, Kate, you know, with the Summer Olympics

12
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: early next month, it seemed like an appropriate time to

13
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: talk about the economics of sport. Forget GDP, forget the

14
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 1: trade balance, Let's talk about something interesting. No just joking.

15
00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,320
Speaker 1: After all, experts estimate that Brazil's final cost to host

16
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 1: the Games this summer, let's direct and indirect costs could

17
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,080
Speaker 1: reach billion dollars. And let's put that twenty billion into

18
00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,839
Speaker 1: some context. That's more than double what the country got

19
00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,759
Speaker 1: from tourism in according to the World bank. And let's

20
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: also not forget where Brazil is right now. They're in

21
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 1: the midst of their worst recession, so there's really they're

22
00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,279
Speaker 1: in no position to be spending this kind of money.

23
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,039
Speaker 1: Your Diniro declared a state of financial emergency just two

24
00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,320
Speaker 1: months ago, and those financial issues have also spilt into

25
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,880
Speaker 1: the political arena. Of course, you know, we were seeing

26
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,559
Speaker 1: these headlines on the news about this police strike caused

27
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: a huge spike in crime, and then to top it

28
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,959
Speaker 1: all off, there's a threat of zeka in Rio, and

29
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 1: it's so serious that a number of athletes have actually

30
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 1: refused to travel to the Games, one of those, of

31
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,000
Speaker 1: course being Irish golfer Rory McIlroy. Officials have warned that

32
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 1: if you get sick, don't get sick. We don't have

33
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 1: to have hospitals. That's what that's what their message is.

34
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 1: And to be fair of Brazil, this situation is not

35
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: entirely unique, and spent over ten billion dollars to host

36
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:08,400
Speaker 1: the Games in and Beijing paid a whopping billion, And

37
00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 1: of course one of the most notorious is Athens, so

38
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 1: Greek's capital spent eleven billion dollars to host the two

39
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,919
Speaker 1: thousand four Summer Games, and more than had ever been

40
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,080
Speaker 1: spent at that time, most of which was financed by

41
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 1: public debt. Days after the closing ceremony, literally days, Greece

42
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 1: began to warn people that hit public debt and the

43
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 1: deficit was going to be much worse than expected. Of course,

44
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 1: we all know where that story goes, and we took

45
00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,640
Speaker 1: the zone with them exactly exactly. I mean, they became

46
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,840
Speaker 1: the first country to be placed under fiscal monitoring, and

47
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,160
Speaker 1: they really just spiraled into one of the biggest sovereign

48
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 1: financial collapses we've ever seen. But let's hold the violins.

49
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 1: These weren't just misfortunes that happened to Rio or Athens

50
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: on their way to the opening ceremony. Quite the opposite.

51
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 1: Cities va to host the Games in two thousand and nine,

52
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 1: Brazil lobbied against the US lobby to gainst Spain lobby

53
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 1: to get into Japan for the opportunity to host the Games,

54
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 1: and eventually they want and countries and cities keep coming

55
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,640
Speaker 1: back wanting to host major sporting events despite some of

56
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 1: the economic arguments to the contrary. And that's what I

57
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 1: find and I think what we both find so interesting

58
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,920
Speaker 1: is that why do cities still line up and fight

59
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,920
Speaker 1: it out to host the Olympics, even when you have

60
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 1: so many examples, I mean Athens, which really right in

61
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 1: recent history. So even for their back of Montreal, their

62
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six Olympics that was bankrupted the city. They

63
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 1: had one and a half billion dollars of Olympic debt

64
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 1: that took thirty years to pay back. Going back over

65
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,280
Speaker 1: to Athens, they built twenty two different structures to host

66
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 1: these games, twenty one of which are in disrepair. They're

67
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,760
Speaker 1: unusable because maintaining these facilities is also very expensive. So

68
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: what drives otherwise financially saying public officials to lose their

69
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,560
Speaker 1: economic minds when it comes to hosting major sporting events.

70
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,560
Speaker 1: In a moment, we'll talk with someone who studied the

71
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: issues for more than two decades. He's a true expert

72
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,720
Speaker 1: in understanding why municipalities through the United States have fallen

73
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,039
Speaker 1: prey to the same poison chalice that luered some of

74
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:22,120
Speaker 1: the world's biggest cities to host the money losing Olympics. First,

75
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:30,359
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, Bloomberg. Benchmark is brought to

76
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,239
Speaker 1: you by Stage Summit, the world's largest gathering of small

77
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 1: and medium Businesses featuring Sir Richard Branson, July Chicago, Register

78
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,240
Speaker 1: with Promo Code Business at stage summit dot com for

79
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 1: just so here to talk to us about what goes

80
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,720
Speaker 1: on in the US. Specifically is Neil Demas. Now. He's

81
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,919
Speaker 1: the author of the book Field of Schemes, How the

82
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 1: Great Stadium Swindle Turns Public Money into private profit. Now.

83
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,719
Speaker 1: One thing I really like about Neil, and I've been

84
00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,320
Speaker 1: talking to him for a while about this kind of stuff,

85
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 1: is before he put his microscope on the sports business world,

86
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 1: he actually was a question writer for the game at

87
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 1: Trivial Pursuits. So, Neil, thanks for joining us. Glad to

88
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,919
Speaker 1: be here. I am totally in all. You did that

89
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 1: for like twelve years, right about about ten. It was

90
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: sort of overlapping with the stadium works, so I had

91
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,320
Speaker 1: to juggle a couple of hats at once for a while,

92
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,040
Speaker 1: or a couple of cheese wedges. How did you get

93
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,279
Speaker 1: a job like that? Um, it's a long story that

94
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,039
Speaker 1: mostly ends up involving standing in the right place at

95
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,680
Speaker 1: the right time, as most do. So we wanted to

96
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 1: talk about kind of the economics of these facilities. But

97
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 1: of course, before we can do that, we need some backgrounds.

98
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 1: So we're in the era of the billion dollars stadium now,

99
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 1: but we weren't there always. So I mean, can you

100
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:47,960
Speaker 1: talk to us about how we got there in the

101
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,440
Speaker 1: US in terms of the price or in terms of

102
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 1: the cost of the public, or in terms of both,

103
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,400
Speaker 1: In terms of the price itself. Yeah, I mean even

104
00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 1: when my co author joined KIG and I first started

105
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 1: researching this in the you know, made nineties, it was

106
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 1: still you know, two three or million dollars was sort

107
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,520
Speaker 1: of the going price for a for a sports stadium,

108
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,320
Speaker 1: and probably a little less than that for an arena.

109
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 1: And at the time that felt extraordinarily hot, you know,

110
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,479
Speaker 1: I mean that was typically stadium stadiums in decades past

111
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,880
Speaker 1: had been you know, a hundred thousand dollars, sorry, how

112
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,760
Speaker 1: do a million dollars or less? And what was going

113
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,640
Speaker 1: on then and this continued to go on now, is

114
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 1: just that you're not just building a stadium anymore. Right.

115
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: The first one that really broke the bank was SkyDome

116
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,040
Speaker 1: in Toronto, and that was I think somewhere around five

117
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars and you weren't just building a stadium,

118
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,839
Speaker 1: you were building a hotel. You were building all of

119
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,800
Speaker 1: these food courts and hard rock cafe and um retractable roof,

120
00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:47,919
Speaker 1: and it was sort of seen as the first of

121
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,880
Speaker 1: the mall parks, you know, where you're you're building something that,

122
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,560
Speaker 1: as the Yankees CEO Lawn Trost wound up saying about

123
00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 1: their new building is designed to be a four star

124
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: hotel that just happens to have a baseball field in

125
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,200
Speaker 1: the middle of it. And so that's really what's going

126
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 1: on is as team owners have realized, oh, hey, it's

127
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 1: great to make money just selling tickets, but we can

128
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,239
Speaker 1: also make money selling pulled pork sandwiches and hotel rooms

129
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,160
Speaker 1: and you know, all the other stuff that otherwise people

130
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 1: are going to spend across the street from our stadium. UM,

131
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: we can make a lot more money that way, so

132
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 1: long as this ballooning construction cost gets pinned on somebody

133
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,160
Speaker 1: else other than us. And that's the second piece of

134
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: the puzzle. And to what extent was Toronto's perspective shaped

135
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: by the debts that Montreal in could with the seventy

136
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,120
Speaker 1: six Olympics. I think that there was certainly a cautionary

137
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,680
Speaker 1: tale around the Olympic Stadium from Montreal. UM but you

138
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 1: know the problem is, you know, Toronto didn't go in

139
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 1: intending to spend six hundred million dollars. I think the

140
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 1: original price tag was two or three hundred million. But

141
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,200
Speaker 1: the way that these things work is that the price

142
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,200
Speaker 1: tag tends to go up and up and up. With

143
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,720
Speaker 1: with most construction projects, where you aren't just you know,

144
00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 1: picking something off of a out of a catalog, but

145
00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: you're having to design it from scratch, which is every stadium,

146
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 1: an arena kind of has to be has to be

147
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,720
Speaker 1: designed on a case by case basis. So I think,

148
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 1: you know, it wound up being a bit of a

149
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,840
Speaker 1: disaster from a fiscal perspective, but in terms of team

150
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 1: owners looking at sky Dome and at some of the

151
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 1: other stadiums that came around the same time the early

152
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,600
Speaker 1: nineties and seeing, oh, this is what we should be

153
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: after it really started a gold rush where every team

154
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,120
Speaker 1: owner was thinking, hey, I gotta get me one of those,

155
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: but I don't want to spend six or a million dollars,

156
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 1: So how can I figure out a way to to

157
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,360
Speaker 1: stick this to the public. And so I imagine that's

158
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 1: where the city funding became routine. Yeah, I mean city

159
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,600
Speaker 1: funding really started becoming. There's three phases to to uh

160
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 1: to stadium in arena construction. The first was the one

161
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,720
Speaker 1: that that was in place for most of the twentieth century,

162
00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 1: which was, if you own a team and you want stadium,

163
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,320
Speaker 1: you go and you build a stadium. If you can't

164
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,960
Speaker 1: afford a whole stadium with all the bells and whistles,

165
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: you build a smaller stadium, and then once you sell

166
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,600
Speaker 1: that out, then you add some more seats and add

167
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 1: some more seats, and all the old ballparks like old

168
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,599
Speaker 1: Yankee Stadium, Wrigley Field, if you look at old time photos,

169
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, in the early years, there was just they

170
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,560
Speaker 1: were much smaller, and they kept you know, they'd extend

171
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,680
Speaker 1: the seats down to the left field line, and they'd

172
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,880
Speaker 1: add a second deck in a third deck. That came

173
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 1: to an end in the fifties and sixties when team

174
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,120
Speaker 1: owners realized, oh, we can move to other cities because

175
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,920
Speaker 1: suddenly jet airplanes have been invented, and we can use

176
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,480
Speaker 1: that as leverage to try to either get you know,

177
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 1: new cities on the West coast to offer us new stadiums,

178
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 1: or existing cities to offer us money not to leave.

179
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,240
Speaker 1: So you know, fifties, sixties seventies, you had a bunch

180
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,439
Speaker 1: of stadiums built, mostly those sort of big concrete donut

181
00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 1: multi purpose baseball football ones. But typically what would happen

182
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,679
Speaker 1: would be that the city or the state would put

183
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,480
Speaker 1: up the money and then we get paid back by

184
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 1: rent from the team. Okay, they would front the money,

185
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: but by and large usually they got it back over time.

186
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,600
Speaker 1: What happened in the eighties and nineties was you started

187
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:18,200
Speaker 1: to see cities, especially after you had large cuts in

188
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,200
Speaker 1: federal funding to cities under Reagan, cities sort of start thinking, Okay,

189
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,319
Speaker 1: the only way that we're going to get economic activity

190
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 1: is to try and basically bribe companies to come here.

191
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,760
Speaker 1: So you saw them going after auto plants and computer

192
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 1: chip factories and all sorts of things like that, and

193
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 1: it became big money, and I think eventually some of

194
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 1: the sports team owners started saying, hey, you know, we're

195
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,440
Speaker 1: a lot more, if not lucrative, we're a lot more attractive,

196
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,960
Speaker 1: and you know, seem sexier than a car plant, so

197
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 1: why don't we start playing that same game. And that's

198
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,320
Speaker 1: when you started to see the buildings being built exclusively

199
00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 1: that there has to be a benefit to a city,

200
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,559
Speaker 1: right just to play Devil's addicate here, there has to

201
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 1: be a benefit to a city to have a professional

202
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 1: sports team. I mean, for example, I used to be

203
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,679
Speaker 1: in Baltimore and Camden Yards really just totally transformed an

204
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,960
Speaker 1: area of the Inner Harbor that was virtually unusable for

205
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,760
Speaker 1: kind of the average person. Isn't there the argument that

206
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,560
Speaker 1: these stadiums really do help cities. I mean, there's there's

207
00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,920
Speaker 1: a reason why they should be applicable to tax three

208
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 1: dollars in debt. Well, I mean, you know, first of all,

209
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,200
Speaker 1: I'm a sports fans, so I never want to say

210
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: there's no value to having a sports team, right. I mean,

211
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 1: there's obviously a value if you're a sports fan of

212
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,960
Speaker 1: having a team in town and getting to go and

213
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 1: see it, right, But in terms of the economics, economists

214
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 1: have now been looking at this for thirty years and

215
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,480
Speaker 1: no one has found any measurable positive impact to sports

216
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,400
Speaker 1: stadiums um And there's two real reasons. One is the

217
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,800
Speaker 1: substitution effect, which is that if you know the Orioles

218
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 1: are playing in Baltimore, then sure people are going to

219
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,720
Speaker 1: Orioles game ms. But that means they're not doing something

220
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,839
Speaker 1: else with their with they're spending money, right, They're not

221
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 1: going to movies, they're not going out to dinner, they're

222
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 1: not going to UH games for some other sports team.

223
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,040
Speaker 1: And sure a little of that is going to be

224
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, if the oriel is left, probably more people

225
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,240
Speaker 1: would go drive down to d C and go to

226
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 1: Nationals games, and that would be a loss to the

227
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:21,680
Speaker 1: Baltimore economy. But the numbers show that it's a tiny, tiny,

228
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,960
Speaker 1: tiny amount um. And then there's the problem that if

229
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,880
Speaker 1: you go to a restaurant, most of that money gets

230
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,440
Speaker 1: respent locally, right. Usually it's you know, it's the owner

231
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,560
Speaker 1: probably lives locally, the staff probably lives locally. You know,

232
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,680
Speaker 1: they go and they go grocery shopping, and it gets recirculated.

233
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,080
Speaker 1: Whereas the most of the money that gets spent at

234
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: a sporting event goes to the owner and the players

235
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 1: who probably you know, live somewhere else. And so we're

236
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 1: not going to be rushing around and buying cans of

237
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 1: tuna immediately. Athletic. Let me just challenge you on that.

238
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned d C, where I lived for

239
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,359
Speaker 1: ten years now. The National Stadium is a lovely stadium,

240
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,320
Speaker 1: and I don't think anyone would argue with the proposition

241
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,080
Speaker 1: that the part of d C where that ballpark is,

242
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: once upon a time was not so great and a

243
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,560
Speaker 1: lot of stuff has gone up around that area of

244
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 1: d C. And there's Look, i didn't grow up in

245
00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,599
Speaker 1: a baseball country, but I've seen a few games that

246
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,679
Speaker 1: it strikes me as a lovely place to watch a game.

247
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,760
Speaker 1: And that area was an isole a disaster. Now it's

248
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,920
Speaker 1: not that right, But the question is was that caused

249
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 1: by the stadium? There are you know, I've I've spent

250
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 1: a lot of time in d C and there are

251
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,560
Speaker 1: innumerable parts of the city that have seen huge construction

252
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,960
Speaker 1: booms in the last ten fifteen years, and lots of

253
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,240
Speaker 1: them did not have baseball stadiums there. Obviously, Sure, if

254
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,360
Speaker 1: you go and you build something new, whether it's a

255
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,040
Speaker 1: stadium or whether it's a park or anything else, Um,

256
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,480
Speaker 1: that's attractive. If you're in a city that has a

257
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,599
Speaker 1: bunch of real estate developers running around and trying to

258
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 1: figure out what's going to be the next hot new neighborhood,

259
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,520
Speaker 1: that's going to be something that will attract them there.

260
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 1: But the question is figuring out, you know, what's what

261
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 1: would have happened if the stadium hadn't been built, there,

262
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,120
Speaker 1: would eventually something else have have gone into that that

263
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,079
Speaker 1: area around the Navy yard. Would there have been more

264
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,440
Speaker 1: developments somewhere in a different part of town, not particularly there,

265
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,280
Speaker 1: but it would have been the same same scale, or

266
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 1: you know, just what you know, could the city have

267
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 1: gotten better bank for its buck? I mean, it's spent

268
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,960
Speaker 1: about half a billion dollars on that National Stadium. Think

269
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: about what else you could have done to spruce up

270
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 1: a neighborhood, or spruce up multiple neighborhoods um for that

271
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: kind of money. One thing that I always find really

272
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 1: interesting and just kind of boil down what you're saying here,

273
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 1: it's it's the idea that yes, revenues coming in, and

274
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 1: yes it's wonderful for the neighborhood, but unfortunately these facilities

275
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 1: are so expensive, Like we were talking about kind of

276
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 1: in the beginning of this section, like you know, you're

277
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,720
Speaker 1: not working with a two hundred million dollars stadium. You're

278
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,360
Speaker 1: looking at a seven hundred and fifty million dollars stadium,

279
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 1: or even sometimes a billion dollars stadium, and there's no

280
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 1: way that you can pay back a billion dollars stadium

281
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 1: with a bunch of hot dogs and beer? Is that

282
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 1: what you're looking at? Sure? And it's worse than that

283
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 1: because you're not even getting the money from the hot

284
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: dogs beer, right that the team owner is getting the

285
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,040
Speaker 1: money from the hot dogs and the beer and the

286
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 1: naming rights and the ticket sales, and all you're getting

287
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 1: is whatever incremental tax revenue is coming in over what

288
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 1: you would have gotten otherwise. Right, So it's how much

289
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 1: you're getting in hot dog tax sales tax money versus

290
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 1: how much you would have been getting at you know,

291
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,600
Speaker 1: from restaurant sales tax money, um, if somebody were eating

292
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,160
Speaker 1: somewhere else. And again there's a small amount of money there,

293
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 1: but it's it's it is never going to pay back. Okay,

294
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 1: But let's just zoom out for a second. Dan, you're

295
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,160
Speaker 1: not from the US. You're Australian. I believe you're. You're

296
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 1: asked your accent tips you off? I mean, do we

297
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,320
Speaker 1: do you still have that same sports craze in Australia?

298
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,400
Speaker 1: You know, the face painted Jets fans and the tailgating

299
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 1: and all the paraphernalia. Well, it's a sportsmad culture, but

300
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 1: it's only comparatively recently that there's been a corporate framework

301
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: for the sporting life in Australia. Let's take the principal

302
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 1: summer sport in Australia, which is cricket. For most of

303
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 1: the time, cricket has been based around a national team,

304
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: state teams and small small clubs. The idea that that

305
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,240
Speaker 1: players would be under contract, the idea that the teams

306
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: would be sponsored, the ideas that the players individually would

307
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 1: be sponsored, and you know, like Shane warned, they could

308
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 1: wear a Nike earring. That's all pretty recent and in fact,

309
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating. In the era when the national team

310
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 1: was pretty much the only way to go, you would

311
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 1: have star cricketers who would actually be on the doll

312
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: between gamesable now it's unbelievable now, but you know this

313
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 1: was as recent as late seventies, early eighties that would

314
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 1: be inconceivable here. So when you I mean, I'm sure

315
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 1: you've been to it what you call a cricket match

316
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 1: or as a crookeet game, they could be both. Okay,

317
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 1: so a cricket match slash game. So you've been to one,

318
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,040
Speaker 1: I imagine of course, oh yes, and it was it

319
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 1: is it similar to going to see a Yankees game.

320
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,360
Speaker 1: Is it like you know, you have all the amazing

321
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,879
Speaker 1: food and the seats and the expensive beer and the

322
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 1: Johnny Waker. Is it like that? Well, I mean there

323
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 1: are different levels of the game. If you take the

324
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,640
Speaker 1: most recent one I've been to, which was the Cricket

325
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 1: World Cup Final in Melbourne in March of last year,

326
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean, the Melbourne Cricket Ground is a stadium structure

327
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,159
Speaker 1: that most people would recognize it dates back to the

328
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, but there've been add ons and sure, you

329
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,199
Speaker 1: take your break and you work your way down to

330
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: the food concession area and you can get a meat

331
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: pie with sauce and a beer or a Bunderberg rum

332
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: and coke. It's not that different from sitting at National Stadium.

333
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 1: But there is a lot more razmatazz. There's a lot

334
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 1: more neon lights flashing saying Delta United or whatever it is,

335
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 1: which are all that's all just money. But way catching

336
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: up fast with the corporate structure for sure. Interesting. I mean,

337
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,359
Speaker 1: I think where I'm always confused about the stadium question

338
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,959
Speaker 1: in the US is that you know, we have all

339
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 1: these leagues. We have the NFL, we have Baseball, we

340
00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 1: have basketball, and even within baseball, there are several leagues.

341
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 1: Yes there are, there's the whole minor league system, which

342
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean its completely takes advantage of public money too.

343
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,959
Speaker 1: So you just you have hundreds of teams, but in

344
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 1: my eyes as a Bloomberg reporter, that means hundreds of

345
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 1: stadiums that are getting built. And yet even though you know,

346
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,400
Speaker 1: Neil is telling us that virtually every sports economist agrees

347
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: on the lack of empirical evidence that would say that

348
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,200
Speaker 1: these really do benefit the towns that they're in, they

349
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: make the same mistake every single time. So, I mean, Neil,

350
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 1: I want to throw this back to you, how is

351
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,639
Speaker 1: it that politicians, despite all of that, it is, how

352
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,399
Speaker 1: do they keep making the same mistake over and over

353
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 1: and over again. Well, there's a bunch of different incentives

354
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: that that politicians have for for doing this. The most

355
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 1: obvious one, I think might be the most overblown one,

356
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,880
Speaker 1: which is that you know, they're afraid of losing their teams. Right.

357
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 1: Everybody always says, well, you know, the team might leave

358
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 1: if you don't give them what they want. So if

359
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: you're a mayor, that's gonna be the worst case scenario,

360
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 1: because you know, people angry sports fans will vote you

361
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 1: out of office if your team leaves if you don't

362
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 1: give them a new building. The problem with that is

363
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,879
Speaker 1: that it's never actually happened. There are zero mayors in

364
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: the US who have been voted out of office for

365
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 1: refusing to spend public money on a sports facility. That

366
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 1: The one possible counter example is Greg Nichols in Seattle,

367
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,160
Speaker 1: who after the Sonics left, did get voted out as mayor,

368
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 1: but from all accounts it was much more because he

369
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,359
Speaker 1: refused to salt the roads before it snowed, and it

370
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: was a complete gridlock in the city. Um, and that

371
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 1: was the sort of the the proximate cause of him getting

372
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: getting booted out. UM. On the other hand, we've got,

373
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, multiple examples of local officials who have gotten

374
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: kicked out after approving unpopular stadium deals. UM. You have

375
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: UM George P. Tack, who was a state senator in

376
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: Wisconsin over the Brewers deal, who actually got was the

377
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:24,360
Speaker 1: first state official to get recalled. UM. You had um

378
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: the mayor of Miami after the Marlins deal. And just

379
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: recently we just had Tim Lee, the Cobb County commissioner

380
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 1: who negotiated the Braves stadium deal to move them from

381
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 1: the city to the suburbs, and you know, very proudly

382
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: did it, you know, in secret, without going before a

383
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 1: public vote. And the public then told him what they

384
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 1: thought of him by kicking him out of office overwhelmingly.

385
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: You know, other kiss Neil where it does create a

386
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 1: certain s breed to call and sense of community in

387
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: some urban Saintists where they have a power, full team

388
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: and a stadium and all the infrastructure. I'm thinking of Denver,

389
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 1: where my fiance grew up. Now, there are multiple sports

390
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: teams in Denver, but let's be real, there is only one.

391
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: And it hits you from the second you depart the plane,

392
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: you walk past Always restaurant, you get on the subway

393
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: car to take you to the main terminal, and there's

394
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: John Elway's voice, and you know, the last couple of winters.

395
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: Downtown area in Denver, everything is colored orange, and you know,

396
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: there is a real sense of community there. I mean,

397
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: isn't there something intangible about it as well that just

398
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: can't be measured by traditional commercial, macro economic yardsticks. There's

399
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: absolutely something intangible, and that's you know, there's something tangible

400
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: as well, you know, I mean there is a value to,

401
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,919
Speaker 1: like I said, to having a sports team to to

402
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: cheer on. Economist have even tried to put a number

403
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: on what that tangible value is, right, you know, there's

404
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of economic um metrics that you can

405
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: use to try and measure things like clean water or

406
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: anything else like that that's uh sort of doesn't have

407
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: a dollar value on it. And the best study I

408
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: saw this was a guy named Bruce Johnston in Kentucky

409
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: and the figure that he came up with after pulling

410
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, sports fans non sports fans, was that the

411
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 1: value of a pro sports team was around forty million dollars.

412
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: You know, that's about how much it was worth to

413
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: have a have a team in your in your city.

414
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: And this is a while back, so maybe you know

415
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 1: it's sixty even a hundred million dollars. Now that you know,

416
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: that's what you feel like, is is worth giving up

417
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 1: in order to have the presence of a team if

418
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 1: that's really the threat on the table. But you know,

419
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: you almost never get a stadium for that price. It's

420
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: usually three hundred four five, six hundred million dollars. You know,

421
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 1: the question isn't should cities ever put public money into

422
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: sports stadiums. You know, sure, there's always a price point

423
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: where it makes sense. And I think when you have

424
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 1: something like the San Francisco Giants Stadium right where there

425
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: was a very minimal amount of money was about thirty

426
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: million dollars, the team put up most of the money. Um,

427
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: the site worked really well, you know, in conjunction with

428
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: other development that was going on. Um. You know, that's

429
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,959
Speaker 1: something that I think everybody is happy about. But for

430
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: every deal like that, there are forty deals where it's

431
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: just a matter of you know, the team owner saying, hey,

432
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: write me a big check and you know, somehow I'll

433
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: make it worth your while later on, and they get

434
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: the check and you know, the worth your worth your

435
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: while never comes to pass. So, given this is such

436
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: a difficult cycle to break, I'm sure we're going to

437
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: be hearing much more about this in the future. So

438
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: we kind of thank you enough for joining us. Neil

439
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: bench Mike will be back next week and until then,

440
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal and Bloomberg

441
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: dot com, as well as iTunes, pocket cast, and Stitcher.

442
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: Why are they take a minute to rate and review

443
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: the show so that more listeners can find us and

444
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: let us know what you thought. You can talk to

445
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: us and follow us on Twitter. You can find Dan

446
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: at Daniel Moss d C. And you can find me

447
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 1: at by Kate Smith. And our guest Neil was on

448
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: Twitter at Neil de Moss. We'll see you next week.

449
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Benchmark is brought to you by Sage Summit, the

450
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: world's largest gathering of small and medium businesses, featuring Sir

451
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: Richard Branson July in Chicago. Register with promo code Business

452
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: at Sage summit dot com for just ninety nine dollars