1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. 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Join My Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires February fourteenth. 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld, I'm introducing a new series 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: of podcast called Spies Like Us, about the men and 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: women who serve our nation in the intelligence Service. Each 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: episode will feature the true story of a career intelligence 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: officer and all the ups, downs, and shocking moments they 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: endured along the way the intelligence community plays a vital 22 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: role in our national security. In the years following World 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: War Two, the Central Intelligence Agency was created under the 24 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: National Security Act of nineteen forty seven. The CIA officially 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: came into existence on September eighteenth, nineteen forty seven. The 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: CIA has continued to adjust to ever change in global landscapes. 27 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Their mission is to collect, analyze, evaluate, and disseminate foreign 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: intelligence to assist the President and senior US government policymakers 29 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: in making decisions relating to national curity every day. The 30 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: work of the men and women of the CIA is remarkable. 31 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: On this episode, I'll introduce you to Charlie Allen. Charlie 32 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: Allen was appointed Assistant Director of Central Intelligence for Collection 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: by the Director of Central Intelligence, George Tennant. Charlie Allen 34 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: is one of the great legends of American intelligence. He's 35 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: been actively involved since nineteen fifty eight. He has been 36 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: in a series of key roles. When the Reagan administration 37 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: decided we had to rebuild our capacity to withstand nuclear 38 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: award to convince the Soviets that we would never be 39 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: able to be knocked out by a first strike, Charlie 40 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: Allen led that very expensive, very complicated project. He was 41 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: then tasked with setting up the initial intelligence center looking 42 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: at terrorism, and was very actively engaged in the nineties, 43 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: long before nine to eleven in trying to think through 44 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: and help attract down Ben Lauden and others. Charlie has 45 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: played a role that I think most people who in 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: the intelligence will tell you makes him a mentor professional, 47 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: somebody they look up to, and somebody whose depth of 48 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: knowledge is literally unparalleled. I was first introduced to Charlie 49 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: Allen when George Tennant, then the director of sent To Intelligence, 50 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: offered me the opportunity to come over and review first 51 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: the War on Terrorism and then the RACT situation, and 52 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: ultimately I got involved across the entire agency. This was 53 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: about two thousand and two two thousand and three, and 54 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: Charlie and I would spend saturdays together and he would 55 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: guide me around the building, introduce me to people, set 56 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: up the right kind of learning. So for a number 57 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: of years Charlie and I spend time trying to think 58 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: through what are the things that threatened America and what 59 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: do we need to do to improve our ability to serve? 60 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: And I think you're going to find this interview with 61 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: Charlie Allen, A fascinating exposure to how the intelligence community 62 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: works and what America does to try to protect itself 63 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: in a dangerous world. As I remember, you grew up 64 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: in North Carolina and you joined the agency in fifty eight. 65 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: What led you to do that. I was interested in 66 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: government and politics, but I was also interested in English literature, 67 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: and UNC had a great English department. I minored in English, 68 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: majored in government. Instead of reading poetry under the trees 69 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: at Chapel Hill, I suddenly realized that I was going 70 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: to graduate. I was going to get married. I said, 71 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to get a job. So I went 72 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: over to the place where recruiters arrived in that day. 73 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 1: They had had a CIA recruiter left behind the materials. 74 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: I filled out the materials. I had an interest because 75 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: I had been a summer employee for summers when I 76 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: was one year in high school and four years in 77 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: college with the FBI, where I did clerical work for 78 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: the FBI as a summer employee. So I had a 79 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: sense that, you know, with the Cold War and the 80 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: dangers of that, it would be a good thing. And 81 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: I got a response asking me to come to Washington, 82 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: for an interview. So I came to Washington, had the interview. 83 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: It went well. It was dealing with leadership profiles globally, 84 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: and the work would be on Central Europe, primarily Germany, 85 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: and I was quite excited. But I had to wait 86 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: almost a year to get through a hiring freeze and 87 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: then and get the security clearances. And I told my 88 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: newly married bright, I said, I'm not sure I would 89 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: get through all the clearances. The polygraph was really rough. 90 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: They asked questions. I didn't think that they should ask 91 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: those days. They had no guidance, and the rules were 92 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: the rules of the essentially the Office of Strategic Services. 93 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: But I came in September nineteen fifty eight, they swore 94 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: to uphold the Constitution, took that oath of office. Then 95 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: we lived in northern Virginia early in the Cold War, 96 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: to get a footing into this effort to begin to 97 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: look at what's ahead. The risk were very great. We 98 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: had Crushoff making great claims about his ICBM capabilities. Of 99 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: course I knew nothing at that stage, but I was 100 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: certainly willing to learn. What was your parents reaction to 101 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: that kind of career choice. Well, they were very supportive. 102 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: My mother was very, very supportive. She was scotch Irish. 103 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: She had always pushed me to excel. My father did too. 104 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: He was a farmer, and we had lived in austere 105 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: conditions as a young person, and I had been taught 106 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: that one has to work and this is the way 107 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: the world is. And they called me Charles, not Charlie. 108 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: But you have to work and you have to excel 109 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: in school. Good parents who gave me strong values and 110 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: a strong willingness to work hard and to try to 111 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: excel in the chief. So it was a classical Southern family, 112 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: I'll say that. So you actually start out focused on 113 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: Germany and Central Europe. Yes, I worked on Central Europe. 114 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: We worked particularly on the trying to keep track of 115 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: science and technology. And we also had good intelligence at 116 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: that time because we had Berlin Tunnel information not only 117 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: on Russians in the Group of Soviet forces Germany, but 118 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: also we had good information on Walter Ulbrich's government through 119 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: the Berlin Tunnel. Now that ran out because there was 120 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: a traitor and the British government who betrayed the tunnel, 121 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: George Blake. But the information was good, it was voluminous 122 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: and kept us going for my first two or three years. 123 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: My first boss was a woman. It was not a man, 124 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: it was a woman, Thank God for that. She was brilliant. 125 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: She had a PhD out of Oberlin College. She spoke 126 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: German at a level that was considered fluent, and she 127 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time teaching me how to write 128 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: critical thinking. And coming out of North Carolina, I thought 129 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: I knew how to write, but this woman, Lucy Petterson, 130 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: was a whole different order. And she had run the 131 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: Berlin Document Center after the war and then had joined 132 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: that she was an officer Strategic Services and then joined 133 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: the Central Intelligence Agency. And I always looked back on 134 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: those years with great fondness working for this very brilliant scholar, 135 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: a very gentlewoman, but decisive when she had to be 136 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: a knowledgeable That was just amazing. So I felt very 137 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: blessed by having a woman as my first supervisor at 138 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: the Central Intelligence Agency, which was a little unusual at 139 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: the time, wasn't it this pretty early for women to 140 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: have risen to that level. Very unusual, And she had 141 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: excelled because of her knowledge of German culture and the language, 142 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: and of course she had worked in support of people 143 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: operating out of London. Her knowledge of Germany, having studied 144 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: in Germany and worked in Germany, her fluency in German 145 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: was remarkable, so I had great guidance. It was unusual, 146 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: in fact, as I think back about it, having a 147 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: woman supervisor in the agency was rather rare. Your career 148 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: continued to grow. I mean, one of the things that's 149 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: impressive about you is you play a major role in 150 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: the Reagan administration in really reassessing our capacity to survive 151 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: a nuclear strike. I really did. I was called in 152 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: by Carlucci, who was Deputy Director of Central Intelligence before 153 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: he became Secretary of Defense. Colbien said, Colonel William Olden, 154 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: who is military aid to Bradginsky, the National Security Advisor, 155 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: wants to see you because there's a new program being 156 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: developed under President Reagan. I didn't know it was about. 157 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: So off I go to the NFC and we sit 158 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: in the sit room with a number of people's. The 159 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: big new chaired the meeting, and they turned to me 160 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: and said, I want to see how the intelligence community 161 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: is prepared for continuity of operations. And I said, well, 162 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. I have not been briefed into any 163 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: of its activities, but I will prepare a major paper 164 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: on it, and I'll meet your deadline. And they gave 165 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: me thirty days, and I made the visits back to 166 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: senior people at the agency, went to talk to the 167 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: rest of the community, went back with a report which 168 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: Odom read, which said, well, I see, we have a 169 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: lot of work to do. And I said absolutely, and 170 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: I said, I've just been given the responsibility but Carlucci 171 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: to do this, and I said, I'll have to find 172 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: a lot of positions and I'll have to find money, 173 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: and he said, well, lots of luck on that. So 174 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: I went back and talked to senior people here, including 175 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: the director of the Intelligence Community staff, who told me 176 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: you won't not get any money and you won't get 177 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: any billets. Rest assured you can try. But then Bobby 178 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: ray Inman came down to be deputy Director, replacing Carlucci. 179 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: Went on to Secretary Defense, went in to see Admiral Inman, 180 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: and he's said, interestingly, he said, I think I can 181 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: find some money, and I think I can find some bullets. 182 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: So in a matter of a very short time, I 183 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: had forty million dollars and eighty nine billets. And then 184 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: I started building a concept of operations, a budget profile 185 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: operational look at what would be needed for communications and 186 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: for relocating senior officials as required in the intelligence community. 187 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I had an office here in Langley, but then they 188 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: said you need to go to another place undercover. So 189 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: I went out and it was undercover, and it was 190 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: under a shopping mall in northern Virginia. Believe it or not, 191 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: it was. And there I had military officers and assigned 192 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: to me and the CI officers and we built the 193 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: program in nineteen eighty two. I ended up working until 194 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five as deputy director of the overall program. 195 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: It was an acquisition program. I did not know how 196 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: to do acquisition, but I had a three star general 197 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: who did. He said, you'll learn. Go out to TRW 198 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: and renegotiate a contract. They're trying to charge us too 199 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: much money. They're trying to give us a Cadillact. And 200 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: we knew affward. So I went out and in a 201 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: week's time I talked to a guy named John Steinbitt, 202 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: well known Department Defense officials still very much around, and 203 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: at the end of a week, DRW conceded we had 204 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: what we wanted and it was in a pace to 205 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: keep costs under great constraints and keep schedule and performance 206 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: to have actual, real capabilities that could work in the 207 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,239 Speaker 1: most dire circumstances. And we ran two national level exercises 208 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: where I was the exercise controller, and by golly, you know, 209 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: we develop some sustaining capability. And we also started building 210 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: a deception program in to tell the Russians if they 211 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: were listening through a variety of ways that look, we've 212 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: got continuing national command authority. It was pretty heavy experience 213 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: for a pretty young guy. I was in my thirties, 214 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: I guess at the time. I had served overseas for 215 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: three years, which was a great experience. And then I 216 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: was called back by Casey. I arrived back to report 217 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: to him on one j nineteen eighty five to become 218 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: his National Intelligence Officer for counter terrorism, because he was 219 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: quite exercised over the Palestinian terrorism, which was state sponsored. 220 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: Some of the money and funding flowed in through Soviet means, 221 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: but a lot if it involved his ball, all flowed 222 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: in from Iran. It was a great assignment. Was the 223 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: NIO for counter terrorism from one January nineteen eighty five 224 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: to March nineteen eighty eight. The owner initiate NIO is 225 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: national intelligence officers are correct. That it's correct, And this 226 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: was before we had a counter terrorism center. I was 227 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: the centerpiece for counter terrorism. At that stage. We were 228 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: working on a concept under CASEY under Dewey Claridge to 229 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: build the counter Terrorism Center at CIA, which would be 230 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: interagency and would try to fuse intelligence among all the agencies. 231 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: But it was going to be also very operationally oriented 232 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: so that we could actually conduct with support operations overseas. 233 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: We had more than ten Americans being held by his Balla, 234 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: including Bill Buckley who died in nineteen eighty four as 235 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: a result of his ball of torture, and I ran 236 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: that hostage location task Force for those held in Lebanon. 237 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: For our fourteen months while I was the NIO for 238 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: counter terrorism, we did some things that were good, getting 239 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: the Achille Laure at least getting the killers. We didn't 240 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: get a Bouba Bass, but became close. Bible Bass ran 241 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: the Palestine Liberation Front. As you recall, the Atchaie Laure 242 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: was a large cruise ship which did a lot of 243 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: cruises in the Mediterranean. This was in October nineteen eighty five. 244 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: We had already had the twa hijacking in June of 245 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: eighty five where his bala killed Steadham, the navy diver. 246 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: And here we had in October eighty five we had 247 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: the killing of Leon Klinghoffer gentleman, who was shot by 248 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: the hijacker's body thrown overboard in order to attimidate the 249 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: crew and the other passengers. That was quite a dramatic time. 250 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: We didn't sleep for a week, but it was well 251 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: worth it. We had meetings at the White House which 252 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: President Reagan personally attended and I attended in the situation 253 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: room behind Bill Casey, and we made plans to send 254 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: Seal Team six in to take down the cruise ship. Next, 255 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: Charlie describes a dramatic moment with President Ronald Reagan. I'd 256 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,479 Speaker 1: like to welcome a new sponsor to news World betterhelp 257 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: dot com. Is there something that interferes with your happiness 258 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: or is preventing you from achieving your goals? 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That's 274 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: better Help, HLP dot com slash Newt n ewt better 275 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: Help because you deserve to be happy. I think the 276 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: most dramatic moment I recall was Ronald Reagan, a tall 277 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: man standing at the end. We all stood at the 278 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: end when the decision been made to send the seals 279 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: after the ship. He stood in a pointed with his 280 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: finger and said, Admiral Krau, take no prisoners. He turned 281 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: and walked out of the situation, whom It was a 282 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: dramatic moment. The President made very quick and strong decisions. 283 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: President Reagan did that were powerful and impressive, and Casey 284 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: and I talked about it in his car on the 285 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: way back to Langley. It was a good moment that 286 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: we were striking back. We brought in Seal Team six. 287 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: Unfortunately the Italians objected. They brought in their security forces 288 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: and we almost had a standoff on the tarmac between 289 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: the US and the Italian forced a carbonary. We did 290 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 1: get four of the hijackers. The Italians cooperated. These were 291 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: dramatic times. I was briefing the Congress. It made headlines, 292 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: lead stories in newsweek in time and these Raelis asked 293 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: for me to come out and brief the Israelis all 294 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: the services there. So I spent the next few days. 295 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: I went to the British and talked with him first, 296 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: and then went on to Tel Aviv talk to them, 297 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: and then I did a series of briefings when I 298 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: came back Europe. Those were good moments because the President 299 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: regular said you can run, but you can't hide, and 300 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: this demonstrated to it. These were finally good in salad 301 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: days with good leadership from the White House the terrorism 302 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: threat that you focused on in the eighties really is 303 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: dramatically different than the Islamist focus of the current threat. 304 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: In the ways of all, how do you see that 305 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: whole evolution that is deeply different what we faced in 306 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and early nineties. By the early nineties 307 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: a lot of that had dissipated. Albu Nidal had been destroyed. 308 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: It had a lot of front companies, like you say 309 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: in Europe, which helped fund a lot of the activities 310 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: that were funneled in from the KGB and through other services. 311 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: The demise of his organization was a great step forward, 312 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: but they were not focused at that stage. It was 313 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: a very different focus. Violent ideological Islamic extremism was not 314 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: one of them. But by the late nineteen eighties we 315 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: began to understand that there was a movement, particularly in 316 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: Sudan and other areas, and that there was a bin Laden. 317 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: Next we'll discuss the rise of Osama bin Laden and 318 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: al Qaeda. We had a charismatic figure with Osama bin 319 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: Laden and others of his ilk. There's others at not 320 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 1: just Zawati, but others like Ibuhaff's Al Masri and others 321 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: who was a number two at the time it at Zalay. 322 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: We had a growing problem set the Taliban, which came 323 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: out of the Inner Services Directorate of Pakistan. There was 324 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: something called Directorate s which supported this extremist view. Is 325 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: SI helped found and fund and position the Taliban to 326 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: sleep into cobble to keep the Tajiks out. The guidance 327 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: from the Department of State was to try to talk 328 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: to the Taliban, which was pretty hard. In those days. 329 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: We didn't understand what was really happening. That the ground 330 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: had moved under our feet, but we didn't realize just 331 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: how dramatically things had changed. We did not form a 332 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: group to look at bin Laden until nineteen ninety five. 333 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: We were facing a different enemy. We did not really 334 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: quite get that. We had our embassies attacked on seven 335 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: August nineteen ninety eight, which killed in two CIA officers 336 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: and a number of other Americans. They killed hundreds of 337 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: Africans tax in Nairobi and Dr Salaam against the American embassies. 338 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: We knew it was Ben Ladden from the start. We 339 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: did not move as rapid as I would have wanted 340 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: to go after what was occurring. We took a while, 341 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: but we knew that another attack was coming in two thousand. 342 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: That was when I started pushing from my vantage point 343 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: because I had become Assistant Director for Collection on the 344 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: second of June nineteen ninety eight. I already chaired the 345 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: National Intelligence Collection Board, which I had turned into an 346 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: operational activity, so I was ready to really start moving issues. 347 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: The one thing that became clear to me we had 348 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: a static situation regarding trying to deal with the Ben 349 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: Ladden problem. We had a lot of tribal recruits, but 350 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: they were on the periphery and not part of the 351 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: inner circle of bin Laden wanted change that dynamic. I 352 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: was meeting regular Dick cart he was the NSC advisor 353 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: special assistant the President for counter Terrorism that was President Clinton. 354 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: He sent me a memo saying, you must find a 355 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: way to change the collection dynamic using any ideas you 356 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: can garner from the Pentagon, or from rest in the 357 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: intelligence community, or think tanks anywhere. So I put together 358 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: a report in April two thousand which talked about things 359 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: that we needed to do with great urgency. I had 360 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: had such a tremendous reception in the Joint CHIESUS staff. 361 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: Scott Frye who retired as a fourth star admiral, said 362 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: we need to do this. I keep submarines off Pakistan 363 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: in case we have to try to attack al Qaeda. 364 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: And he said it's such a waste of effort and 365 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: it's not very good intelligence. He was absolutely right. So 366 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: I guess my number one recommendation was, I knew that 367 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: the tea lambs were good, we'd use teams. On the 368 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: twenty first of August nineteen ninety eight, President Clinton had 369 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: ordered the attack on what he thought were potentially al 370 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: Qaeda bases in coast province of eastern Afghanistan. I was 371 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: very dubious that I went up and talked to the 372 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: Deputy Director General Gordon, John Gordon, four star, and we 373 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: hit the sheaf of plant, the pharmaceutic plant in Sudan, 374 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: which I said, I don't wouldn't hit that. It produces 375 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: pharmaceuticals for most of Sub Sahara Africa. And of course 376 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: we did strike that. We struck some rocks, and we 377 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: killed some hoochies, a militant group, but beIN laden and 378 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: al Qaeda was nowhere near where we were. Intelligence allegedly 379 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: said they might be very poor effort. It was extremely poor. 380 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: I recall President Clinton flew back from his vacation. I 381 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: guess at kicked cod to announce that we had attacked back. 382 00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: But the results where paltry poor, literally very little. Nice 383 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: posited that we should get some predators. We should put 384 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: them under CIA control. The Air Force with second officers 385 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: operating under CI authorities could fly and change the collection dynamic. 386 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: This was poorly received by people here and Langley. By 387 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: my seniors saw no need for it and strongly opposed. 388 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: I won't go into all the details because but we 389 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: had no Memorial Day two thousand. It was a knockdown, 390 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: drag out fight between me and General Gordon called the 391 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: meeting and we ended up the fact that I didn't 392 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: give an inch to any of the seniors here in Langley. 393 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: We fought hard, and then I continued to pursue it. 394 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: To find funding for it, I went to the Department 395 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: of Defense to our money. Who was Assistant Secretary for 396 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: Command and Control and Communications computers. He said, I can 397 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: find money. We wanted to be able to carry the 398 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: signal all the way from the air the predator A 399 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: all the way back to Langley, and then be able 400 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: to determine how best to deal with any threat that 401 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: we saw. I was able to prevail and we started 402 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: flying in September two thousand. We flew until mid September. 403 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: We saw Ben Lauden and his team three times during 404 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: that period, and one time including Ben Lauden and all 405 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: his sura and all of his guards. We had to 406 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: stop flying in mid September. This was a real struggle. 407 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: We also then General Jumper, Chief of Staff of the 408 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: Air Force. I wanted to arm it, and I thought 409 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,479 Speaker 1: that was a great idea. So we armed it and 410 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: tested it. See I ran tests with the Air Force 411 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: and very successful. I was very impressed that we could 412 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: not just change the collection dynamic. I knew we had 413 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: changed it when we started flying in early September two thousand. 414 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: Without any capability of arming, we would call in the 415 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: tea lambs. Would be the idea, calling submarines to fire 416 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: tea lambs. If we could locate Ben Ludden, would you 417 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: explain what a tea lamb is. It's a Tomahawk land 418 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: attack cruise missile. It flies about five hundred miles an hour, 419 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: hugs the terrain very closely, moves very rapidly, and can 420 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: hit with an accuracy of about ten feet something like that. 421 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: If it's programmed right, it'll hit directly on the target. 422 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: One things I think it's fascinating is you talked about 423 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: the idea that you had to have a finding. This 424 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: is all lawyer driven right. I had a major meeting 425 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: of all concern at CIA, the intelligence community, because we 426 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: had the national gear, special intelligence agents, We heavily involved, 427 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: defense involved all the people involved. I said, we need 428 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: to start using it against the leadership. And then I 429 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: got a chorus of nose. We need to attack and 430 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: only when we see Ben Ludden because that will hurt him. 431 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: That we have a arm capability. I said, we need 432 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: to take down any leaders of the inner circle of 433 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: the Shura anytime we can, because we do not have 434 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: the human source penetrations that are required to attack al 435 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: Qaeda central in the way that we need to have. 436 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: This is a way to get at it. This is 437 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: the right thing, And I warned them. My principal deputy 438 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: at time was with me, a retired Navy captain, and 439 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 1: he also remembers vividly my warning them that I said, 440 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: we will be sorry for not deciding to act. And 441 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: of course the contests and service opposed any action, except 442 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: for going against the Sma bin Laddon, which got into 443 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: a sort of farcical because once we got a lethal 444 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: finding its Soma bin Laden, we needed to get lethal 445 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: findings for his guards, and we had to get lethal 446 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: findings because he few occasionally am I seventeen helicopter. We 447 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: had to get lethal find it would include ben Laden 448 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: and his pilence, which seemed to me sort of nonsensical, 449 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: but we did it, although we did it a glacial 450 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: speed and getting these lethal fightings, so we didn't fire 451 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: a missile until seven October two thousand and one, after 452 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: nine to eleven and after mala Omar had escaped. He's 453 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: the head of the Taliban at the time, who was 454 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: now officially determined to be dead. But we could have 455 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: done so much early on with more decisive action, which 456 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: we did not get. In your career, pole dramatic was 457 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: the change in the impact of lawyers from the early 458 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: days up through just before nine to eleven. I mean 459 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: it struck me that lawyers got to be more and 460 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: more and more powerful. Yes, it was a lawyer driven. Tenant, 461 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: to his credit, got so exasperated after nine to eleven 462 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: he said, I want a finding that we'll cut away 463 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: all this nonsense. And the CIA, lawyers and Justice Department, 464 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: the White House, all White House councilor always gets engaged 465 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: in this. They all moved rather rapidly, but we had 466 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: nearly three thousand people dead as results of the nine 467 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: to eleven attacks. So it is very dismaying to me 468 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: when we could have taken preemptive action and finished some 469 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: of this long before they happen. When you lay awake 470 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: a night, what worries you the most? I worry that 471 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: we are being eclipsed very rapidly by China because of 472 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: their investments. They made a strategic decision under Hi jinping 473 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: back when he is in Davos in January twenty seventeen, 474 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: he laid out his views that China will be the 475 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: dominant power in the world. It'll eclipse the United States, 476 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: and he's made it clear subsequently that the Plenum where 477 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: he was elected president for life no successor designated that 478 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: he's going to exceed the United States technically, economically, and 479 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: the aggressiveness with which they have pursued buying people and 480 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: essentially almost buying governments around the world is an aggressive 481 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: effort to confront the West, confront the United States and 482 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: to exceed it. This administration has to win this Huawei 483 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: battle because we're not able to replicate everything that's necessary 484 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: to meet the five G era in which we're moving rapidly. 485 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: If it weren't for Nikia and Ericsson, which are Western firms, 486 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: we would not have the capabilities that we needed to 487 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: end capabilities because we've focused on software more than hardware, 488 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: and there are some things we don't build in China. 489 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: Does Zte and Huawei ju If somebody came to you 490 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: and said they're sort of wondering whethery're going into the 491 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: intelligence community be a good thing to do, what would 492 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: you tell them? Would you recommend they do? Go in? 493 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: And absolutely it is the best job they could hope for. 494 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of young people. I feel 495 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: extremely proud of what we've done and getting some people 496 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: with some skills, writing skills, radical thinking skills, and in 497 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: some cases really good languages that the agency needed. I 498 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: think it's a great career. The career is great and 499 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: the rewards are great to be able to serve your 500 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: country and intelligence and see I is getting a very 501 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: advanced group of people. I think case officers of the 502 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: futures will have to be different. They'll have to understand 503 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: cyber understand software, understand cutting edge technology, what's going on 504 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: in artificial intelligence and machine learning. I have breakfasts frequently, 505 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: mentoring them, telling them about the opportunities, and I find 506 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: great enthusiasm. That's great. Listen, this has been extraordinarily helpful 507 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: just listening to you today. You know so much, You've 508 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: been in so many rooms. Then you've been a remarkable 509 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: American patriot. It's a great country, mister speaker, It's a 510 00:32:52,800 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: great country. Thank you to my guest, Charlie Allen. Can 511 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: read more about the Central Intelligence Agency and Charlie's life 512 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: as a leader intelligence on our show page at newtsworld 513 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Westwood One. Our executive 514 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: producers Debbie Myers, and our producer is Garnsey Slum. Our 515 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: editor is Robert Barowski, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 516 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: Our guest booker is Grace Davis. The artwork for the 517 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. The music was composed 518 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: by Joey Salvia. Special thanks to the team at king Wig, 519 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: Sweet sixty and Westwood Ones. John Wardock, Tim Sabian and 520 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: Robert Methers. Please email me with your comments at Newt 521 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 522 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 523 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 524 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. On the next episode 525 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld, we'll explore the amazing story of how the 526 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 1: Israelis discovered a secret nuclear reactor site in Syria connected 527 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: to the North Koreans and then destroyed it in a 528 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: covert mission. My guest is Yakov Katz, author of Shadow Strike, 529 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: inside Israel's secret mission to eliminate Syria nuclear power. Imagine 530 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: that Isis had taken over that territory where that reactor 531 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: one stood, which you did in twenty fourteen. Isis conquered 532 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: where that reactor stood, and imagine Isis that got in 533 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 1: his hands on a nuclear reactor. You would have radioactive, 534 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: dirty bombs throughout the world. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is 535 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 1: News World, the Westwood One podcast Network.