Speaker 1: Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Off the Record.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jordan Runtuck. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: Our latest chapter followed Young David Bowie, where David Jones
Speaker 1: as he was then, as he struggled to find his
Speaker 1: place in the mod music scene of swinging sixties London.
Speaker 1: It was an exciting but also frustrating time for him
Speaker 1: as he fronted a lengthy list of R and B
Speaker 1: bands so close yet so far from headliners like The Beatles,
Speaker 1: The Who and the Rolling Stones. Today, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk to one of David's closest friends during that crucial
Speaker 1: learning period, Dana Gillespie, the legendary British blues singer whose
Speaker 1: career spans more than seventy albums. In addition to originating
Speaker 1: the role of Mary Magdalene and the West End production
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ Superstar, she also acted in films by
Speaker 1: iconoclassic directors like Ken Russell and Nick Robe. Her new
Speaker 1: memoir Weren't Born a Man is a fascinating look at
Speaker 1: her astonishing life at the center of the entertainment scene
Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies. It's filled with tales of
Speaker 1: wild times with Bob Dylan, Sean Connery, Michael Can and
Speaker 1: Iggy Pop recording sessions with Elton John and Jimmy Page,
Speaker 1: and appearances on stage alongside Chuck Barry and Ooh Didley.
Speaker 1: And that's not even the half of it. For anyone
Speaker 1: who dreams of traveling back to that very special time
Speaker 1: on this planet. I can't recommend your book enough. But
Speaker 1: back in four Dana was just another teenage music hopeful,
Speaker 1: just like David. They shared songs, laughter, beds on occasion,
Speaker 1: and also the unforgettable experience of rising through the pop
Speaker 1: pecking order at a time when the Fab four ruled
Speaker 1: the land. To begin, take me back to the mid
Speaker 1: sixties in London for a moment. The music, the nightlife.
Speaker 1: Can you set the scene for me walking through Soho?
Speaker 1: What was a night out in nineteen sixty four? Like
Speaker 1: night A? Soho was exciting? I mean the nineteen Sixtyfoh.
Speaker 1: I was fifteen and in those days Soho was everything
Speaker 1: that you wanted it to be. Girls in doorways, red lights,
Speaker 1: women hanging out of windows, low life, guys treating about
Speaker 1: music bursting out of every bar. Um you know there
Speaker 1: were and there were great clubs. Of course, there was
Speaker 1: the Marquee Club, which is where I first met Bowie,
Speaker 1: but you know, that was very much the blues club
Speaker 1: with bits of jazz. But down the road was the
Speaker 1: Flamingo and the All all Night Or which went till
Speaker 1: about six in the morning, where people like Georgie Fame
Speaker 1: who had his hit with Year Year, would be playing.
Speaker 1: That was much more slightly blacker crowd and more purple
Speaker 1: heart pill popping was more at that club, whereas if
Speaker 1: there was in me at the market Cupboard and then
Speaker 1: I actually noticed it, but I was already hooked on
Speaker 1: that area. In two I decided I wanted to be
Speaker 1: a drummer for my profession. And Guy used to go
Speaker 1: to one of the main drums shops down the street
Speaker 1: that has all the the theaters on it, Sharkly Avenue,
Speaker 1: and it was called Drum Cities. And I would get
Speaker 1: myself to there and I would stand literally with my
Speaker 1: nose pressed against the window, drooling at all the fabulous
Speaker 1: drum kits in the window. And I took from the
Speaker 1: age of eleven to fifteen the job of a newspaper
Speaker 1: delivery girl. I nearly said boy, because boys nearly always
Speaker 1: did it. And from that money I saved up and
Speaker 1: I got myself, sadly, not a marvelous colored, singly fangly,
Speaker 1: dazzling drum kit. I couldn't afford that to get a
Speaker 1: plain white. One of the company was called Ajax for
Speaker 1: the chief a variety of flame white. And with the
Speaker 1: rest of my money, I used to go every week
Speaker 1: to my drum teacher, who was right in the heart
Speaker 1: of Soho, behind something called the Windmill Theater, which was
Speaker 1: the famous windmill that was called We Never closed. It
Speaker 1: stayed open north through the war, and it had sort
Speaker 1: of topless girls. I think maybe they had a g
Speaker 1: string on. But in those days the law was such
Speaker 1: that if you had you sits up, you weren't allowed
Speaker 1: to move. You had to stand like a statue. Not
Speaker 1: that I saw this, but in the next in the
Speaker 1: same street was where thanks seeing my teacher gave me
Speaker 1: classes or classes. It was just him and me anyway,
Speaker 1: So that was you know, I just loved the area
Speaker 1: and my life changed the moment I walked into the
Speaker 1: Market Club because there were the Yardbirds playing, which is
Speaker 1: of course Eric Clapton on guitar and I fell in
Speaker 1: love with the blues. I was already in love with
Speaker 1: the blues, but I didn't think you could see it
Speaker 1: live like that and see musicians playing with abandonment and
Speaker 1: just sweating and you know, dripping on stage, whereas everything
Speaker 1: on television in those days, of course we're still black
Speaker 1: and white. Um, nobody dripped. They just all wore very
Speaker 1: normal since and it wasn't very interesting. So I was.
Speaker 1: I was. My eyes were open to another world, and
Speaker 1: that was absolutely fantastic. And I never stopped going back
Speaker 1: to that club that was my hangout. I still managed
Speaker 1: to get the school every day. I never missed classes,
Speaker 1: but um, I never missed any time that the Yardbirds playing,
Speaker 1: I'd be there. And it was one night. I think
Speaker 1: it must have been in ninetees before. It's in my memoirs.
Speaker 1: I've written a date, but I'm bad with all kinds
Speaker 1: of numbers, but I think it was sixty four and
Speaker 1: I went to see a band called Gary Fire and
Speaker 1: the key Bones, and the opening act was featured a
Speaker 1: young man with shoulder length lemon blonde hair in a
Speaker 1: Veronica Lake hairstyle. Although I think you were too young
Speaker 1: to know who Veronica Lake was and on when he
Speaker 1: walked on stage. This was David Bowie, but he was
Speaker 1: still called David Jones in those days. Um, and I
Speaker 1: listened to the actual I can't remember a thing about
Speaker 1: their music because I'd come to see Gary Farr and
Speaker 1: the Tea Bones. But afterwards, when the show was over,
Speaker 1: and I was standing at that of the club brushing
Speaker 1: my shoulder length for oxide blonde hair, as I wore
Speaker 1: skin type black leopard jeans and a skin type top,
Speaker 1: and I was quite big busted even in those days
Speaker 1: non vergically enhanceday hastened to eggs. I'm really anti sucking
Speaker 1: around in nature. Um. This young man with dizzy lemon
Speaker 1: yellow hair came up behind me as I was brushing
Speaker 1: my hair, took the brush out of my hands, carried
Speaker 1: on brushing my hair as he leant forward and whispered,
Speaker 1: can I come home with you tonight? And what could
Speaker 1: I do but say yes, Well, I was. But you know,
Speaker 1: I've always lived by intuition, and sometimes when somebody says
Speaker 1: something to me about something I don't know, it could
Speaker 1: be in a thing, my inner voice tells me what
Speaker 1: to do, and I knew it was the right thing
Speaker 1: to do, and you have to take risks in lives,
Speaker 1: in your life, or I mean, I didn't think of
Speaker 1: it as a risk. It is just it seemed like
Speaker 1: an interesting thing to do. So he and I walked
Speaker 1: home from the club and I smuggled him up to
Speaker 1: the top floor where my bedroom was. I grew up
Speaker 1: in a huge, quite fancy house right in the heart
Speaker 1: of London, in a very upmarket area called South Kensington, Knightsbridge,
Speaker 1: and I had this little single bed. Then we squeezed
Speaker 1: into it. I can't really remember what we did. We
Speaker 1: did something, because I guess we did. And he was
Speaker 1: two years older than me, so a bit more experienced
Speaker 1: than me. I didn't know anything um, but from that
Speaker 1: moment our friendship was cemented. And so he used to
Speaker 1: sometimes walk me home from school in my ballet shoes,
Speaker 1: and he listened to my feeble attempt at songwriting. You know,
Speaker 1: I was very embryonic in my songwriting, but he was
Speaker 1: learning too, and we both progressed. We both played twelve
Speaker 1: twing guitars, because if you're not that great at guitars,
Speaker 1: if you have twelve twins instead of six, the sound
Speaker 1: is fuller, makes you sound a little bit better, and
Speaker 1: so I would you know. That's my early entrance into
Speaker 1: the west, the west end of London. And this included
Speaker 1: a street called tin Pan Alley Denmark Street, and this
Speaker 1: was where all the music publishers were. And in this
Speaker 1: little street was a cafe that has a special crack
Speaker 1: above it. Now it doesn't exist anymore because some idiotis
Speaker 1: pulling all down all the interesting places of Soho. But
Speaker 1: in this cafe Giaconda would sit all the musicians, the
Speaker 1: out of work musicians, tying with a cup of tea,
Speaker 1: hoping that if they sat there long enough, it was
Speaker 1: a eat full of song publishers. And if they were
Speaker 1: doing demos in their basement studios and they suddenly needed
Speaker 1: a backing singer or a bass player, they'd come into
Speaker 1: the geopondra and they'd shout, boy as he's got a
Speaker 1: bass player, and somebody will put his hand up and
Speaker 1: he would have a profession a gig. So this is
Speaker 1: where we spent a long time in the afternoon, nursing
Speaker 1: our cups of tea. And it was in this little
Speaker 1: cafe that one day Bowie came rushing in. Everybody was
Speaker 1: still jones, of course, and said come with me, and
Speaker 1: he dragged me around the corner into a music store
Speaker 1: that was sold records as well as instruments, and pulled
Speaker 1: into tiny little booth and he played me his first
Speaker 1: singles on a kind of one earpiece, which is how
Speaker 1: you chose your singles in those days, with great pride.
Speaker 1: And I never forget that moment, excused his great pride,
Speaker 1: and within well within about a year, I've got my
Speaker 1: first record deal. So I was able as he was.
Speaker 1: Same for him. There's nothing like the first record that
Speaker 1: you make. If that's your goal in life, it changes everything.
Speaker 1: We're so used to David Bowie the icon. But what
Speaker 1: was he like in the mid sixties, Like, what was
Speaker 1: it about him that attracted him to you? Was he
Speaker 1: different than most people even then? Well, I mean I
Speaker 1: come from a rather upper class family, so I've certainly
Speaker 1: never met anyone working class, and you know, television was
Speaker 1: pretty terrible, you know, as I said, in black and white.
Speaker 1: So when he said to me, come and meet my parents,
Speaker 1: which meant getting on a proper train, which I've never
Speaker 1: done that on my own. I was fourteens. Um, I've
Speaker 1: never been into a tiny working class house before to
Speaker 1: meet his parents, who sat there in silence, with the
Speaker 1: television being the main thing in the room, also very
Speaker 1: old fashioned TV. When his parents went out, David turned
Speaker 1: to me and he said, I want whatever it takes.
Speaker 1: I want to get out of this place. I never
Speaker 1: want to grow up like this. He was already burning
Speaker 1: with an ambition to get out. So what he was
Speaker 1: really like was just like a guy with a musical dream.
Speaker 1: But I don't think any of us were dreaming about,
Speaker 1: well in his face, conquering America or the world's musically,
Speaker 1: because it was it was beyond anyone's dreams. Even thinking
Speaker 1: about going on an airplane to America was beyond those
Speaker 1: people's ideas. It was you know, we could we we'd
Speaker 1: heard of Elvis Presley, but to get foreign records LPs
Speaker 1: was quite difficult. But you know, he had a little
Speaker 1: band and he went from one band to another. We
Speaker 1: stayed always friends because because of the actual location where
Speaker 1: my parents place was the house. Eventually, when I was fifteen,
Speaker 1: they moved me to the basement, which nobody wanted to
Speaker 1: go into because it was dank and dark and damp.
Speaker 1: My parents said, you can go down there and play
Speaker 1: your drums. And by this time I got my piano,
Speaker 1: and I got I got some guitars and things, and
Speaker 1: I at fifteen, I could paint it black and orange
Speaker 1: and reds and you know, hangings and incense was burning.
Speaker 1: A real hippie paradise. But I was still under the
Speaker 1: umbrella of my parents. But it was right near one
Speaker 1: of the top clubs or two clubs in London. So
Speaker 1: all the musicians would go to clubs if they weren't working,
Speaker 1: or even if they were working there they'd go. And
Speaker 1: you know, I can remember evenings, you know Rod Stewart, Long,
Speaker 1: John Boudry, Ronnie Woods, brother Art Wood had a great bank,
Speaker 1: all the art Woods, um, all these these great bands
Speaker 1: sort of that then turned into place people like Emerson
Speaker 1: Lake and Farmer bit of then they all used to
Speaker 1: turn up there and all the kinks. And if they
Speaker 1: couldn't get home at the end of the night, or
Speaker 1: were too too drunk, or or I couldn't get a
Speaker 1: train home, or couldn't didn't have a car, then you know,
Speaker 1: why not go to the basement flash of dannat where
Speaker 1: Danna lift knock on the door and they would find refuge.
Speaker 1: So I was forever making great kind of sourcens full
Speaker 1: of brown rice and vegetables to kind of need poor, starving,
Speaker 1: hungry musicians, which I used to do with all of them.
Speaker 1: Was this the Cromwelling Club, that's right, well, that's right Cromwelling.
Speaker 1: And there was another one around the corner called Blazes,
Speaker 1: which I remember going, I want be Dylan to see
Speaker 1: John Lee Hooker there, And so you thought one could
Speaker 1: see really good musicians in these in those days, it
Speaker 1: was fabulous. You mentioned all that the bands that David
Speaker 1: was a part of, the Lower Third, the Mannished Boys,
Speaker 1: the King Bees, and none of them cracked the charts,
Speaker 1: and his solo material hadn't broken through. Was he discouraged
Speaker 1: in this time in the sixties or was he always
Speaker 1: pretty confident and just knew that the next thing that
Speaker 1: you know, he'd break through at some point. I don't
Speaker 1: think you. I can only equate it with how I felt,
Speaker 1: because who can really know what goes on in somebody
Speaker 1: else's heart. But I never felt this discouraged. So you
Speaker 1: just keep on keeping on, And I think he did
Speaker 1: the same too. Just getting a single out was great,
Speaker 1: or seeing your name in the music papers, or or
Speaker 1: going to a record reception and you get to say
Speaker 1: a few words to one of the music journalists so
Speaker 1: that your name is mentioned the following week. I mean,
Speaker 1: all of that was a tremendous buzz, and we didn't
Speaker 1: assume that you were going to be instantly number one.
Speaker 1: And I don't think David he may have always had
Speaker 1: this yearning to be a star. I'm sure he did,
Speaker 1: but much more he always had a yearning to be
Speaker 1: a songwriter. Both of our dreams was to be signed
Speaker 1: to a songwriting publisher and get us songs published. But
Speaker 1: in order for these songs to be heard by PubL
Speaker 1: it is you had to sing the blasted things, so
Speaker 1: you had to be a singer as well. And we
Speaker 1: didn't in England seem to have those things like you
Speaker 1: had in New York. The Brill Building, you know, where
Speaker 1: you working and everything, writing all the songs. We didn't
Speaker 1: seem to have that. We just had tin pan alley
Speaker 1: where you hope that you would find a publisher, which
Speaker 1: I indeed did try to publish. I think you can
Speaker 1: find one before David did. But we had kind of
Speaker 1: strange parallel careers because there were times when we were
Speaker 1: both out of work and we both went to auditions
Speaker 1: for that musical hair until you believe that we both
Speaker 1: got turned down. Um, so you know, you just keep
Speaker 1: on keeping on until one day you hope that something clicks,
Speaker 1: but it's you're in the laps of the gods as
Speaker 1: to how or when it's going to happen. But you
Speaker 1: have your goal in front of you, and I think
Speaker 1: unlike this rather unfortunate condition is what I call a
Speaker 1: sickness that sweeping the modern world where everyone wants to
Speaker 1: be a celebrity in just in it for the money.
Speaker 1: In those days, nobody thought that it was going to
Speaker 1: last more than a few weeks. He just kept on
Speaker 1: doing whatever you could do. I mean the Stones or
Speaker 1: Mick Jagger's famously quoted as saying, I will give it
Speaker 1: a couple of years and then we'll get proper jobs.
Speaker 1: You know, nobody had aspirations to suddenly becomes, you know,
Speaker 1: world stars, because world stars didn't exist, so we didn't
Speaker 1: know what was going on across the pond for starts,
Speaker 1: so who knows what was going on in his mind.
Speaker 1: He was always experimental. He was going to learn his mind.
Speaker 1: With Lindsey Kemp. He was doing kind of funny little
Speaker 1: films and I was going to dance classes and doing
Speaker 1: even odder films in my case, usually were lots of
Speaker 1: cleavage falling out of bits of leather, because they seem
Speaker 1: to always want big busted girls in these abe girls
Speaker 1: kind of roles, which I was quite happy to do.
Speaker 1: It had good all to do with music. But a
Speaker 1: gig is a gig, and he needed to pay your bills.
Speaker 1: And I always refused to take uh too much money
Speaker 1: from my parents. I mean I didn't have to pay
Speaker 1: them rent because they owned the house. But and that
Speaker 1: did make a huge difference. And as I said, I
Speaker 1: was always something. I lived at my parents house, in
Speaker 1: my own flat till I was thirty. I never had
Speaker 1: to go and marry some ghastly man. And I don't
Speaker 1: need men of ghastly. I mean, I didn't have to
Speaker 1: marry for the wrong reasons to find somewhere to live.
Speaker 1: I always had somewhere to live. So in this place
Speaker 1: that was known affectionately prisoned by Angie Bowie as the Bunker.
Speaker 1: That's what so many musicians used to turn up there. Um,
Speaker 1: so I had a kind of freedom, and he I don't.
Speaker 1: I kind of vaguely remember him moving from place to place,
Speaker 1: but we always stayed in touch. I never expect it
Speaker 1: to be the only girlfriend of him. I mean, the
Speaker 1: one thing I learned very early on is if you're
Speaker 1: going to be a musician, especially a lead singer and
Speaker 1: probably a lead guitarist, but one thing you've got to
Speaker 1: go out is go out and pull as many girls
Speaker 1: as you can. Otherwise, how on earth can you learn
Speaker 1: your craft and know what you're singing about. You have
Speaker 1: to learn to love and lose and suck up and
Speaker 1: win and lose everything again. I mean, that's how you
Speaker 1: write songs. And we were both just kind of getting
Speaker 1: on with our things, and he never really told me
Speaker 1: about his other girlfriends until he met Angie. And then
Speaker 1: he rang me up and he said, listen, I've met
Speaker 1: somebody I think you'll really get on well with. And
Speaker 1: he brought her over to my place. From the moment
Speaker 1: she walked to the door, we knew that we were
Speaker 1: instantly like soul sisters. I finally had somebody could have
Speaker 1: a hooped. She was the funniest He is incredibly funny. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, he always stayed in touch, especially if
Speaker 1: he needed some brown rice with vegetables, and occasionally the
Speaker 1: odd as the British said, quaintly call it a shag,
Speaker 1: But I said, I do you know what that expression is?
Speaker 1: I never know. We have to remember, of course, the
Speaker 1: English and American is a completely different language where worlds
Speaker 1: are parts. But anyway, he he, he would ring up,
Speaker 1: and I mean, there is one occasion he called me
Speaker 1: up and he said, I, I'm only ten minutes away
Speaker 1: and I've just written a song half an hour ago,
Speaker 1: and I think it's kind of interesting. Can I come
Speaker 1: around and play to you? And he came over instantly
Speaker 1: and Saturn played Space Oddity. So that's how much in
Speaker 1: and out of each other's pockets we were. And then
Speaker 1: of course he's I would go with him too. The
Speaker 1: TV studios of Ready, Steady Goat, which is quite a
Speaker 1: famous TV show then, and it's where young aspiring musicians
Speaker 1: would go and try and network in their green room
Speaker 1: and hope that somebody would sign you on for the
Speaker 1: TV show. I don't think they ever signed David, but
Speaker 1: they signed me on the two shows. So I was
Speaker 1: doing that before him. But he was far better at
Speaker 1: networking than me. I just had to deal with all
Speaker 1: these kind of slightly growsy guys that, rather than look
Speaker 1: into your eyes, look at your tips instead. But I
Speaker 1: kind of got used to that because that's how it
Speaker 1: was in those days. You have to laugh it off
Speaker 1: in a way. And yeah, did you have noticed that
Speaker 1: there was a separation between David Jones and David Bowie?
Speaker 1: Was there a division between the private man and the
Speaker 1: public persona? Or was was what you saw what you got? Well?
Speaker 1: What I saw is what I got because when you
Speaker 1: know somebody from early teens and you know he was
Speaker 1: mid teens, then for me, even when he became iconic galactics,
Speaker 1: you know, he for me didn't really change um. But
Speaker 1: of course one I didn't really see him after n
Speaker 1: because he moved to America and I stayed in England.
Speaker 1: And but he had always said to me that the
Speaker 1: one thing that was lacking in his life, and of
Speaker 1: it was my life too, was a decent manager. Up
Speaker 1: until then, most musicians called their managers damagers because they
Speaker 1: landed up in court with him, which of course is
Speaker 1: what actually happens. But this company that was formed was
Speaker 1: a company called main Man by a fantastic guy called
Speaker 1: Tony Defrieses. And you know, Bowie and I had been searching,
Speaker 1: as I said, we both auditioned for hair and got
Speaker 1: turned down because we just needed a gig, any gig,
Speaker 1: I mean not quite serving in tables, but in the
Speaker 1: musical gig, anything that involved the music biz. And then
Speaker 1: one day I got a course from David. He said,
Speaker 1: I found the man who I think is perfect to
Speaker 1: be our manager, and he took me. He and Angie
Speaker 1: took me around to meet this extraordinary, marvelous um, large
Speaker 1: with big asso haircut um guys turned to Freeze with
Speaker 1: a legal mind, who did the one thing I like
Speaker 1: in any man. But it's rare to find these days
Speaker 1: somebody that puts their hand on the on your shoulder
Speaker 1: and says, they're there, lets me take care of this
Speaker 1: for you. And that's exactly what he did. You know,
Speaker 1: in the next five years, certainly the first four years
Speaker 1: when everything was going great, he facilitated everything that any
Speaker 1: musician would ever need, which is, you need these musicians,
Speaker 1: you can have them. You want that studio, Yeah you
Speaker 1: want to go there, Yeah, let's do it. You want
Speaker 1: this artpick. Yes. He gave everything for David that David wanted.
Speaker 1: We both signed the same contract, which was, okay, a
Speaker 1: fifty cut. I didn't mind, because you know, fift of
Speaker 1: something is better than a hundred percent and nothing. So
Speaker 1: I never quite understood why David went through the madness
Speaker 1: of all this dreadful legal wrangle at the end that
Speaker 1: he was by this time surrounded by other legal people
Speaker 1: who were saying, I can do better for you, and
Speaker 1: they all started whispering in his ear. But the first
Speaker 1: few years the main man were marvelous because we were
Speaker 1: in this mad curcas. By this time Bowie had brought
Speaker 1: in Nick Romson on guitar, and before this people forget
Speaker 1: that Bowie was quite a fakey singer. I mean he
Speaker 1: was quirky. He sang with this strange Tony Newly voice.
Speaker 1: For those that don't know who Anthony Newly is, He's
Speaker 1: he used to be married to Joan Collins. That he
Speaker 1: had this unusual singing voice, and um Bowie used to
Speaker 1: really rate his voice and kind of copied this voice
Speaker 1: for quite a few albums. He kept this Tony Newly voice,
Speaker 1: and he acknowledged that he kept his voice anyway. We
Speaker 1: had them wildest of times. It was marvelous. May mentor
Speaker 1: cold of everything, the freest said to us, all of
Speaker 1: us should move through life first class. If you want
Speaker 1: to create first class you existing first class when it
Speaker 1: comes to you. So we were all told that you
Speaker 1: must have an assistant, a personal assistant. I mean I
Speaker 1: didn't really need one, but hey, hey know, I was
Speaker 1: happy to say. Yet he had twenty four seven Limosum
Speaker 1: wherever we wanted, we're in the best studios. Were in
Speaker 1: something called Tribent Studios for weeks and weeks. I mean
Speaker 1: that either Bowie was in there doing his album or
Speaker 1: I was in there doing Weren't Born a man, and
Speaker 1: occasionally our time could overlap. Of course, I was lucky
Speaker 1: enough to sing on his Busy star Dust album during
Speaker 1: the it Ain't Easy track I remember, but um he was.
Speaker 1: He wrote this song for me called then the Warhole.
Speaker 1: I've never known why, because I said, particularly want Andy
Speaker 1: Warhole art on my wall. But he seemed to the the
Speaker 1: rest of the world like that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 1: Bowie was far more taken with the New York scene
Speaker 1: than I ever was, so he wrote this song for me.
Speaker 1: I think probably he wrote it and didn't really you know,
Speaker 1: he thought, well, let down I sing it, So he
Speaker 1: says he wrote written it for me, and then we
Speaker 1: took into the studios and rumps and producing it and
Speaker 1: If you listen to Cathie, you can hear Bowie playing
Speaker 1: his twelve string guitar and singing in the background. He
Speaker 1: was doing my backing vocals. But then he liked my
Speaker 1: version so much that he did another version on his
Speaker 1: album for the Hunky Dory album, which actually came out
Speaker 1: before mine was ready, because I was still I was
Speaker 1: started doing the I was the original Mary Magdalen in
Speaker 1: Jesus My Superstar, so I couldn't get to the studios
Speaker 1: every day, and so he finished an album before me,
Speaker 1: and he then took off for America with the Free
Speaker 1: And by this time I got my own band and
Speaker 1: we'd all moved to New York and Bowie has was
Speaker 1: very taken with this show called Pork that was run
Speaker 1: by Andy Warhole's a lot. It was an Andy Warhole show,
Speaker 1: and he was so taken with them that he he
Speaker 1: and DeFries decided to have all the people who performed
Speaker 1: in it to be the people that worked for main Man.
Speaker 1: We had had offices number forty five Park Avenue. I
Speaker 1: was put in an apartment street between second and third.
Speaker 1: That means that as as sitting in a distance from
Speaker 1: blooming Dale's, all bills were for had a great time.
Speaker 1: I mean, as I said, assistant, you know, and I'd
Speaker 1: been on that I was signed to Ostka, as was David.
Speaker 1: I was in my shocking and suspenders and mad slightly
Speaker 1: broussel of in clothing, and Bowie by this time had
Speaker 1: been on the front of his album wearing a dress
Speaker 1: or men just didn't wear dresses. So the whole company
Speaker 1: was quite edgy. And then they got Andy Warhol's lot
Speaker 1: to do my next album cover, which is called Anker
Speaker 1: the Plano Second Fiddle, So we had a we had
Speaker 1: a good image. It was just sad that the whole
Speaker 1: thing fell to pieces. But let's face it, nothing last forever,
Speaker 1: so I should have. I knew the House of Cards
Speaker 1: was going to go eventually, but I just didn't know when.
Speaker 1: And you were with David the night before the famous
Speaker 1: farewell concert at the Hammersmith Odian in July when he
Speaker 1: retired Ziggy Stardust. How did you feel about that at
Speaker 1: the time. Did it seem like the end of an
Speaker 1: error or was it just an exciting new beginning and
Speaker 1: onto the next thing. I don't think it felt like either.
Speaker 1: It was just one of those ideas that Bowie had
Speaker 1: and DeFries always went along with Bowie's ideas, especially in
Speaker 1: those days. I mean there were very much a team.
Speaker 1: You know, DeFries and he would work out things. I mean,
Speaker 1: and Angie of course was people. People really don't give
Speaker 1: Angie enough respect and acknowledgements for the amount of help
Speaker 1: that she did in those days. They were a real duo.
Speaker 1: If he went to a party, by the way, with
Speaker 1: David and Andie, it was Angie who would turn more
Speaker 1: heads than that. David he would be kind of almost
Speaker 1: shy and retiring well until he got with the boys
Speaker 1: and then he could be quite naughty. But um yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew about it, but it's just nobody seemed to
Speaker 1: have thinking anything odd about it. Nobody knew the reaction
Speaker 1: that was going to be either. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: with people almost running out to slash their risks when
Speaker 1: they heard this, because I don't think people realize what
Speaker 1: an impact Ziggy Stardust had made. I think DeFries did,
Speaker 1: and maybe Bowie had an inkling, But DeFries with the men,
Speaker 1: that was a or to see from above what was happening,
Speaker 1: because he was the kind of coolest and the calmest
Speaker 1: of everyone. So yes, I was there. I did know
Speaker 1: it was going to happen, but you know, I don't
Speaker 1: say anything if I we knew it was not going
Speaker 1: to be announced till till it was announced, And it
Speaker 1: may have seemed like the end, but it was a
Speaker 1: new beginning. I don't think David want to be wanted
Speaker 1: to be locked in his own character, but I've always
Speaker 1: felt that he's far better playing a character. He was
Speaker 1: better at doing characters. I mean, tim Machine, that band
Speaker 1: that he had when he was finally sort of just
Speaker 1: going out to a musician was never as good as
Speaker 1: when he was actually playing a part. And of all
Speaker 1: these incarnations, I absolutely adored the Dumb and Dogs Show.
Speaker 1: It was just it was very New York and it
Speaker 1: was very Broadway. I saw it many times when it
Speaker 1: went to I think there was it Hollywood Bowl or somewhere.
Speaker 1: It was brilliant. And by this time to Freeze had
Speaker 1: already okay, you know, Jules Fisher was the top lighting
Speaker 1: men in all the Broadway shows in New York that
Speaker 1: we had. There were dancers, everything was just incredible, so
Speaker 1: uh it was. It was. It was an exciting time.
Speaker 1: The Quad British never even got to see the Diamond
Speaker 1: Dogs Show and it was far too expensive. With its
Speaker 1: moving stage and things that went up and down. It
Speaker 1: was the best show I've ever seen, probably even now,
Speaker 1: and I've seen many many shows. This was just phenomenal
Speaker 1: from its staging alone. And you know, David did something
Speaker 1: like eighties shows in eighty days. How he survived, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but he got thinner and thinner, and at
Speaker 1: the end of the tour he definitely earned the title
Speaker 1: of the thin White Duke. But he never once put
Speaker 1: on a bad show. He always was professional. It may
Speaker 1: not have looked professional, but you know, I've always recognized
Speaker 1: in him the thing that I recognized in myself is
Speaker 1: that music is your master. Music is your god. Getting
Speaker 1: your songs across, getting some mad ideas across, that is
Speaker 1: the most important thing. And he had that thing. I
Speaker 1: occasionally see it in others, not very often. And he
Speaker 1: didn't do it, thankfully, like younger people seemed to want
Speaker 1: to only do stuff too for the money. Nothing was
Speaker 1: done for the money. You did it for the love,
Speaker 1: for the passion. And when you do things for passion,
Speaker 1: it takes you far further than you can imagine. It
Speaker 1: can take you further than your dreams can take you.
Speaker 1: Was there a moment for you when it became a
Speaker 1: parent that David was not only becoming a well known
Speaker 1: pop star, but he was this gargant in figure that
Speaker 1: really belonged to the world. So I think in a way,
Speaker 1: his mega stardom happened with you know, things like let's
Speaker 1: um and the songs that happened afterwards, and I was
Speaker 1: not part of that. I really can't talk about it,
Speaker 1: so I don't or won't can't. I can't talk about
Speaker 1: Burie after nine because he then moved into another world
Speaker 1: and he didn't really stay in touch, mainly because he
Speaker 1: was somewhat piste off that I'd always remained friendly with
Speaker 1: his ex wife, Angie, and I've never ever believed that
Speaker 1: because two people split up, you've got to choose camps
Speaker 1: and whose one over the other. But geographically it wasn't
Speaker 1: sound either, because I had a lot of work in
Speaker 1: Europe and not much put me to America, so um,
Speaker 1: you know. But it was great that he was able
Speaker 1: to do what he wanted and he had a manager
Speaker 1: that agreed with what he wanted. I mean, how lucky
Speaker 1: both of us were so lucky who have been in
Speaker 1: this kind of this star alignment was for five years
Speaker 1: just a joy and the beginnings were great, you know
Speaker 1: when when de Friese and I would turn up and
Speaker 1: David and She's place where he lived in this place
Speaker 1: for Haddon Hall, which was a really bunkers wild little
Speaker 1: place on the edge of London. It was really like family.
Speaker 1: And you know, to hear that the freest plotting and
Speaker 1: planning and David sitting there in a pair of jeans
Speaker 1: and a T shirt, drumming, spinning cross legged on his
Speaker 1: beds with his gutime snacked the place and something that
Speaker 1: he wrote songs. I mean, they were great. They were
Speaker 1: great times, but they were also great when we all
Speaker 1: moved into the Sherry Netherlands. So as telling new Orton
Speaker 1: seemed to stay away for about three months. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's good that we're all you know that. I
Speaker 1: was going to say that we're all still alive to
Speaker 1: tell the tale, but of course some of us aren't.
Speaker 1: The hadden Hard days seemed absolutely incredible me. It seems
Speaker 1: like one of Gertrude Stein's salon or something exactly. It
Speaker 1: was a bit. It wasn't as kind of stoned as
Speaker 1: people would imagine, you know, David was never had a
Speaker 1: joint smoker ever, sint smoke a joint and he was
Speaker 1: not much I don't think I ever sat taken an
Speaker 1: in psychedelic I don't take um. And he was always
Speaker 1: kind of almost a chain smoker. So it was not
Speaker 1: as drug es you might have imagined the sixties would
Speaker 1: have been. But I think that's because work was the ethic.
Speaker 1: It was work. It was getting writing your songs. I mean,
Speaker 1: you do whatever you have to do to get your
Speaker 1: production finished, your your your music is the first thing.
Speaker 1: It's music is not the most important thing, then you're
Speaker 1: not in the right profession. That's my view. Anyway, when
Speaker 1: was the last time you saw him? Do you remember? No,
Speaker 1: I can't actually mids seventies, I guess in New York.
Speaker 1: I can't an America somewhere. I mean, the trouble is,
Speaker 1: it was really painful for all of us. People can't
Speaker 1: imagine how close we'd all been for so many years.
Speaker 1: And he was famous for literally cutting out of his
Speaker 1: life everybody, I mean, everyone who had helped him in
Speaker 1: his early years or has been part of his early life.
Speaker 1: He just cut them out. And I think he needed
Speaker 1: to do that in order to move on and some
Speaker 1: people might have said that's not nice, or you know,
Speaker 1: especially probably Woody woodman Z of the you know, the
Speaker 1: Spiders might have they had reasons to feel quite but
Speaker 1: because they've been out of his whole his whole life
Speaker 1: where they've been there, you know, helping him carry on.
Speaker 1: But it was always his show. So if you're the
Speaker 1: boss in the show, then it's your poor other. If
Speaker 1: you didn't want to cut someone out or drop somebody,
Speaker 1: that's that's what you do if you feel you need
Speaker 1: to do it. So um, it was just sad to
Speaker 1: see it ending, but he obviously needed to do it
Speaker 1: to move on, and he moved on in rather strange places.
Speaker 1: I mean he made was it the Low album and
Speaker 1: you know when he was in Burley and then so
Speaker 1: he had to do major changes. He had to break
Speaker 1: with everybody. But I think the one who probably the
Speaker 1: two that suffered the most was obviously Anglie for a while,
Speaker 1: but then Bronson, poor old Rono, I mean he'd given
Speaker 1: up everything his life up north of England. O Tech
Speaker 1: was only being as into gardener in a you know,
Speaker 1: he but wasn't doing much, but you've given up his
Speaker 1: dream to help David and then he tried to follow
Speaker 1: his own dreams once David didn't seem to want him anymore, um,
Speaker 1: and it didn't really work out as big as he
Speaker 1: you know, people thought he was going to step right
Speaker 1: in and be the guitarist version of Bury, and it
Speaker 1: didn't work out like that. He was far too nice
Speaker 1: a guy. You have to be ready to crawl over
Speaker 1: anybody in order to get to the top, if that's
Speaker 1: what you want. And I think Ronald had almost too
Speaker 1: much heart in a way. That's not to say that
Speaker 1: David didn't have heart, but his ambition was phenomenally big,
Speaker 1: and he he was on a straffchaffis the journey that
Speaker 1: he had to do what he had to do, you know.
Speaker 1: And as I said, for the music, if your if
Speaker 1: your passion is to create, you have to give up
Speaker 1: everything and everybody, if that's what it takes in order
Speaker 1: to get to where you need to be. And he
Speaker 1: did it. But for him. And what's weird is that
Speaker 1: when he died, what was it five or six years ago,
Speaker 1: I already forgotten, you know, I couldn't believe that the
Speaker 1: people were saying, oh, it's so dreadful, you know, the
Speaker 1: world come to the end people who had never even message.
Speaker 1: It's like, this is awful, and you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go out and kill myself. But it wasn't awful.
Speaker 1: You know, he did what every musician dreams of. He
Speaker 1: brought out a new album three days before his death.
Speaker 1: He managed the stage manage his end game even then
Speaker 1: was done wonderfully. So that's off to him, just for him.
Speaker 1: Do you have a memory of David that always makes
Speaker 1: you laugh? Um, You've got a few kind of She's
Speaker 1: frames in my head. I mean, he used to look
Speaker 1: at himself quite a lot in the mirror. I remember
Speaker 1: wance him to sort of standing naked looking at himself
Speaker 1: in the mirror, and then sort of looking at his back.
Speaker 1: He was very wide that the lower bit of his
Speaker 1: spine was slightly protruding, and he was thinking he was
Speaker 1: going to grow Lucifer's tail, the devil's tail was going
Speaker 1: to grow out of the low the lower cockets of
Speaker 1: his back. I mean, don't forget he'd probably been away
Speaker 1: for a week. There might have been somewhat rambling, but
Speaker 1: you know, there were a lot of times when it
Speaker 1: was just fun to hang out with him. But you know,
Speaker 1: these are early days and I can't say that I
Speaker 1: wish I could talk more about the other times of
Speaker 1: his life, because I don't indulge in with wishful thinking
Speaker 1: that I'm sure you know he had some marvelous times,
Speaker 1: but I you know, he had some great musicians so
Speaker 1: with him as well. And I was lucky enough to
Speaker 1: work with some nights with Michael Cayman, who said you
Speaker 1: no longer on this planet, whethers or Earl Slick his guitarist,
Speaker 1: and so yes, seeing him on stage was one thing,
Speaker 1: but just hanging out with him as a person was
Speaker 1: He was just like any other fellow. I mean I
Speaker 1: went with him and DeFries. The three of us went
Speaker 1: to Glaston Breeze. I think it was the second time
Speaker 1: Glaston Breed ever existed. And I can't remember what year.
Speaker 1: It was, maybe seventy three, and I can see him
Speaker 1: now and he addressed him in these strange wide baggy
Speaker 1: Oxford bags, typical British weather. Um the friest had known
Speaker 1: straight away that he wasn't going to be in a tent,
Speaker 1: so he booked himself Hotel Rumber. David was sort of
Speaker 1: wanting to be independent on this and when we get
Speaker 1: to the station, we went by train, I mean with
Speaker 1: him with his guitar. It was just him on his
Speaker 1: own carrying his guitar, and there was no transport to
Speaker 1: get from the station to the actual venue. We had
Speaker 1: to walk about three miles u in the hot sun
Speaker 1: because it was sunny at that point him and he
Speaker 1: had a big floppy hat on. We get to the
Speaker 1: massive area of Glastonbury, which was not as massive crowd
Speaker 1: wise it is as it is now, and there was
Speaker 1: that huge still of the pyramid that they performed him.
Speaker 1: It had just been erected and he was due to performance.
Speaker 1: Let's say it was about seven o'clock at night. By
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock at night, he still wasn't on because the
Speaker 1: sound had problems, and of course um it also it
Speaker 1: also meant that half of people on on the stage,
Speaker 1: you know, the workers and the sound guys and everything
Speaker 1: everyone was on asked it's amazing, innothing kind of ever
Speaker 1: got on. So rather than missed the event, David sort
Speaker 1: of stayed up all night or hung out in somebody's tent.
Speaker 1: I went and slept in De Fruce, his room in
Speaker 1: the hotel. And so David was told, oh, well, the
Speaker 1: only slot we've got that you can go on stages
Speaker 1: at five in the morning. He said, I'll take it.
Speaker 1: So he comes out and he's singing his lineup of
Speaker 1: songs and when he gets to that line, the sun
Speaker 1: machine is coming down. We're going to have a party year. Yeah.
Speaker 1: At that point, the sun was just coming over and
Speaker 1: it hit the still of a pyramid and it was
Speaker 1: truly magical. The people were calling out of their tents
Speaker 1: covered with munds and what's the fus on stage at
Speaker 1: this hour? And there was this one solo guy with
Speaker 1: his yellow hair up on the stage strumming away. Magical,
Speaker 1: totally lovely and magical. You couldn't You couldn't write a
Speaker 1: sort of scenario like that. Well, speaking of writing these
Speaker 1: amazing scenarios, you just finished your memoir Weren't Born a Man.
Speaker 1: That's such a huge achievement. It has to be such
Speaker 1: a great feeling sharing all these stories with fans. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I'm very proud of in the book.
Speaker 1: First of all, I'm proud that it's even out, because, um,
Speaker 1: people don't seem to realize that I've actually made seventy
Speaker 1: albums and I just finished my seventy feet and I'm
Speaker 1: about to start in ten days time, my seventy second album.
Speaker 1: This is what I do. I make albums. I'm I
Speaker 1: make recordings, but I haven't really been blessed with them.
Speaker 1: Timing and as much as maybe I had one album,
Speaker 1: then I had an album out all the methods of
Speaker 1: release as the Drummers Simple Minds based there from Sink Floyd,
Speaker 1: the second retires from Pink Floyd and the Amazing People,
Speaker 1: and literally the weekly album came out. The record company
Speaker 1: is kind of folded. These things have happened to me
Speaker 1: a lot. But I've always felt that probably I'll have
Speaker 1: to die for anyone actually get all the music I did.
Speaker 1: But I was so lucky. I was there at the
Speaker 1: best of the times when he was honorable to be
Speaker 1: a musician. And now you can have a hit record,
Speaker 1: but six months later nobody even knows who you are,
Speaker 1: and you don't get second chances. You did have chances
Speaker 1: in those days because not so many people were doing
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I was lucky. Plus that again,
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to be a good looking chicken
Speaker 1: a time when you know, people did care about look.
Speaker 1: And I learned very early on that if you had
Speaker 1: your top button and your shirt and um, then you're
Speaker 1: going to get the newspapers. One didn't have to be
Speaker 1: wearing nothing Alah, Miley Cyrus or these days people just
Speaker 1: have to be dressed in them four cloth in that
Speaker 1: you're away. But we had different values in those days.
Speaker 1: And if you wanted something, if you wanted to better,
Speaker 1: stave up for your latest single or your latest LPs.
Speaker 1: And nobody would have given a ship and be seen
Speaker 1: dead in something like a pair of trainers and the nets.
Speaker 1: Low life as far as I'm concerned. So values have changed,
Speaker 1: and I'm quite happy to be old school. And I
Speaker 1: wrote a song on my last album called under My
Speaker 1: Bed and it's called old School and it definitely sums
Speaker 1: up how they feel about life because I was at
Speaker 1: the best of times. It really was. The sixties and
Speaker 1: seventies were fabulous. Wouldn't spot it for anything, Arthur. It
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