Speaker 1: If you just tuned in a civic cipher, I am
Speaker 1: your host. Ramsey's job is Ramsey's job. I am q Ward.
Speaker 2: Welcome back, if you've been here, and if you have not,
Speaker 2: welcome to another day in the Life Size Life, Excite
Speaker 2: Life Life.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, today we are talking about the war, the
Speaker 1: Israel Hamas War. And again, for those that weren't here earlier,
Speaker 1: we understand that this show is exists to foster solidarity
Speaker 1: between you know, marginalized groups and the powers that be
Speaker 1: in this country. Today we're talking about something that is
Speaker 1: taking place on foreign soil, but there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people with a lot of passion who are activists,
Speaker 1: who are connecting the struggles, and it just felt important
Speaker 1: for us to provide as much insight into this conflict
Speaker 1: as we can so that we're understanding each other and
Speaker 1: we're not othering each other. Before we continue that conversation,
Speaker 1: let's discuss BABA becoming a better ally BABA. Today's BABA
Speaker 1: is sponsored by Friends of the Movement to support Black
Speaker 1: businesses and allied businesses. You can sign up for the
Speaker 1: free voter wallet at fotmglobal dot com and make an
Speaker 1: impact with your spending Again that's fotmglobal dot com. This
Speaker 1: comes from stop aap I hate and I'll just read
Speaker 1: how they wrote it. We are horrified and devastated to
Speaker 1: learn that a six year old child in Illinois, Wadia
Speaker 1: al Fayome, was brutally murdered and his mother critically wounded
Speaker 1: by their landlord simply for being Muslim. Law enforcement has
Speaker 1: charged a man with a hate crime, stating he attacked
Speaker 1: the Palestinian American family due to them being Muslim and
Speaker 1: the ongoing Middle Eastern conflict involving Hamas in Israel. This
Speaker 1: is a very sad story. This a little boy. He
Speaker 1: died from his stabbing. We grieve for the loss, the
Speaker 1: tragic loss of his young life, and as a coalition
Speaker 1: dedicated to tracking and preventing acts of hatement, we are
Speaker 1: deeply concerned for our communities across the nation, many of
Speaker 1: which are living in a heightened state of fear that
Speaker 1: in many ways mirrors what American Muslims, Arabs, and South
Speaker 1: Asians experienced post nine to eleven. In addition to many
Speaker 1: Southeast Asian Americans who are Muslim, about a quarter of
Speaker 1: Asian Americans who trace their ethnic origin to South Asia
Speaker 1: or have some connection to Islam. Now thousands of miles
Speaker 1: away from the devastation than the least, we're seeing dangerous
Speaker 1: political rhetoric and news coverage here that is encouraging people
Speaker 1: to conflate the actions of leaders at war with innocent
Speaker 1: people and children like Wadia. Lastly, when we encourage Asians
Speaker 1: and Asian Americans who have experienced and activate including racial profiling,
Speaker 1: verbal harassment, and other attacks based on religion, ethnicity, and
Speaker 1: national origin or race, to visit stop aapi hate dot
Speaker 1: org and you can support Wadia al fayomes fundraiser at
Speaker 1: launch good dot com. Just be sure to search for
Speaker 1: his name. That's a horrible story, but you can support
Speaker 1: his family in the aftermath, and that way you can
Speaker 1: become a better out life. Sure, so now we are
Speaker 1: going to discuss Israel, discuss a little bit of powers.
Speaker 1: We're going to discuss both because there's no way to
Speaker 1: really separate them too. But there's no teams. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you for saying that, man, because this is tough. Man.
Speaker 2: The reason we're even speaking about this bro is because
Speaker 2: innocent civilian people are being murdered on both sides. That's
Speaker 2: the conversation. We don't sit on here and talk about
Speaker 2: or yeah, right, the Russian Ukraine conflict, maybe we mentioned
Speaker 2: on our show, but maybe I can't recall. There's tons
Speaker 2: of different contexts and different nuances as to why people
Speaker 2: have separate opinions. We should not have separate opinions once again.
Speaker 2: But the image that I saw and man holding rocking
Speaker 2: his lifeless baby, that should be a terrible image to everyone,
Speaker 2: no matter who you are, how you pray, how you love,
Speaker 2: or how you look, that should be something that breaks
Speaker 2: your heart.
Speaker 1: There was an image that I saw that broke my heart.
Speaker 1: I don't even want to say it, but I'm here now,
Speaker 1: so here we go. It was of a mother. She
Speaker 1: had two babies and they both were gone, and they
Speaker 1: were laying there, and she was, in my estimation, visibly
Speaker 1: a Muslim woman because of how she was dressed. I
Speaker 1: believe ethnically the people are all the same. But you know,
Speaker 1: these people pray this way and these people pray that way,
Speaker 1: but they look very similar. I suppose it's probably and
Speaker 1: I don't mean anything when I say that, just but
Speaker 1: this mother was I would yes, Palestinian, and she was
Speaker 1: laying and it was a hospital, and she had her too.
Speaker 1: They're very young, and they had to right on the
Speaker 1: bellies of the baby, the babies because maybe that's how
Speaker 1: they're keeping track or something. I'm sorry, yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to finish that one, so okay, so let's move on.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you not my father, I can't even tell
Speaker 1: you that story. But anyway, so here's what happened.
Speaker 2: But you should not have to be a father to empathize, right,
Speaker 2: you can empathize more specifically from the viewpoint of a parent,
Speaker 2: but you should not have to be a father. In
Speaker 2: the same way that you should not have to be
Speaker 2: Jewish to empathize with Jewish civilians being murdered, you should
Speaker 2: not have to be Palestinian to empathize and feel bad
Speaker 2: for Palestinian civilians being murdered, or black civilians being murdered,
Speaker 2: or white civilians being murdered, or whatever your ethnicity. Again,
Speaker 2: the way that you pray, the way that you love,
Speaker 2: the way that you look does not take away from
Speaker 2: the fact that you are a human being and one
Speaker 2: thing that we all need to get to the core of,
Speaker 2: right when it comes down to the science, get down
Speaker 2: to what we are made of on a molecular level,
Speaker 2: You get down to what we are singularly a race
Speaker 2: from the same source, from the same place in Africa.
Speaker 2: So again, these differences that we imagined, that we constructed
Speaker 2: and then used to divide ourselves, you know, really a
Speaker 2: singular group. I don't have to point it out. Just
Speaker 2: read a history book or read all the history books.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: We want to elevate ourselves as more than in everyone
Speaker 2: else less than, and hear all the reasons why they
Speaker 2: are less. And once I've made them less, when I
Speaker 2: murdered them, rape them, kidnap them, traffic them, beat them
Speaker 2: into their last breath, decent people won't feel guilty about
Speaker 2: it and won't make me feel guilty about it because
Speaker 2: they will understand that those people are others and they
Speaker 2: are less than.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm glad you brought us here, because here's okay.
Speaker 1: So we heard in the first half of the show
Speaker 1: the activist again, his name is Gabriel Miller. He was
Speaker 1: drawing some connections between the experience of black people in
Speaker 1: this country and the experience of Palestinians, right, and suggesting
Speaker 1: that there's some solidarity there. Now, I do want to
Speaker 1: point out that a lot of media attention was given
Speaker 1: to a post by BLM Chicago, where whoever posted this
Speaker 1: posted a picture of a paratrooper saying you know, I
Speaker 1: stand with Palestine or something like this. Effectually, that was
Speaker 1: what it was communicated in this social media post, and
Speaker 1: then the caption said, you know that's it, that's the post, right,
Speaker 1: But because it was a paratrooper, it's the implication was that,
Speaker 1: you know, I stand with hamas the terrorist group, not
Speaker 1: I stand with the Palestinians, right, because the paratroopers were
Speaker 1: the people that kind of landed in I believe they
Speaker 1: landed around go ahead.
Speaker 2: So this is the interesting thing about saying I stand
Speaker 2: with in this moment, right, you draw a direct opposition
Speaker 2: to everyone else. And in this case there's a conflict
Speaker 2: between two peoples, two groups of people, to ethnicities, if
Speaker 2: you will, If you say I stand with one, then
Speaker 2: you stand other or opposed the other. That's the trick
Speaker 2: bag here. You want to I want to show support
Speaker 2: from my Jewish friends, so I stand with Israel, and
Speaker 2: saying is that you're opposed again to these children and
Speaker 2: mothers and fathers and workers and healthcare professionals and doctors
Speaker 2: and nurses being murdered because they're not Jewish, well because
Speaker 2: they're not Palestinian, and that should be a crazy thing
Speaker 2: to say out loud. But we have this tribalism about
Speaker 2: us where we feel like we have to stand quote
Speaker 2: unquote in solidarity with someone in a case where there
Speaker 2: are two entire groups of people, civilian people's being harmed.
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is, let us not forget the
Speaker 1: human beings that are paying the costs for this on
Speaker 1: the ground. And so again, when this post started making
Speaker 1: the rounds, it's like, oh my gosh, BLM Chicago posted
Speaker 1: something blah blah blah. It turns out that there are
Speaker 1: people who are trying to say, hey, don't just let
Speaker 1: the version of the story that's out right now be
Speaker 1: the whole truth for you, that there is a Palestinian
Speaker 1: cost that has been being paid for some time prior
Speaker 1: to this attack by hamas right. And so I think
Speaker 1: this is what maybe the bo and people were trying
Speaker 1: to say, they missed the market, they admitted that whatever,
Speaker 1: but in any event, not that that's right or wrong.
Speaker 1: That's what brought it to my attention.
Speaker 2: This is what happens situations like that. Though there is
Speaker 2: a house on fire, so you call the fire department
Speaker 2: to that house, every house that's ever been burned is
Speaker 2: not the it's not the call to action in that moment.
Speaker 2: So it's just like black lives matter, will so do
Speaker 2: white lives You're right, sure, except I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: That right right now, Yeah, right now, we're doing this.
Speaker 2: So even that post when you see a hospital blow
Speaker 2: up full of Palestinian people, that I stand with Palestine is.
Speaker 1: Not opposed to any other group.
Speaker 2: It's hey, that group right now is being murdered mercilessly, civilians, women, children, babies.
Speaker 1: So let me let me offer this. Okay. So there
Speaker 1: are people who have said, you know, Hamas is a
Speaker 1: radical group and they have done these horrible attacks and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, Palestine is you know whatever, and they
Speaker 1: feel like Israel's response is justified. I talked with Amy
Speaker 1: Orwitz on the Black Information Network Daily podcast, the show
Speaker 1: that I do at the BIM, and he explained some
Speaker 1: things to me that made the story become a little
Speaker 1: bit more complicated. I just want to share a little
Speaker 1: bit with you here, but please check out the content.
Speaker 1: I believe I have it on YouTube, but it's at
Speaker 1: the bi I mean, you can Black Information Network, you
Speaker 1: can just look for it, you'll see my face big o' afro.
Speaker 1: Click it, it'll be right there, and it'll give you
Speaker 1: some insight and from a Jewish man's perspective on the
Speaker 1: state of Israel and their response and why things are
Speaker 1: more complicated than they seem. So it's important for me
Speaker 1: to say this because I know it. Hamas is a
Speaker 1: group that is not a traditionally organized military. They operate
Speaker 1: in a very unorthodoxed manner. They might have a base
Speaker 1: or a headquarters in the basement of a school, of
Speaker 1: a hospital or whatever. Right. Jewish intelligence is aware of
Speaker 1: this because they're more fortified because they feel like they're
Speaker 1: not going to get attacked if they're in a hospital
Speaker 1: or if they're at a school or something like this. Right,
Speaker 1: So this is how Hamas works. Israel needing precision to
Speaker 1: get Hamas and can't just blow up the whole city,
Speaker 1: might target a hospital or a school with a missile. Right,
Speaker 1: But there's a human cost. And Ami told me he's like,
Speaker 1: at present, Israel's cost for getting one Hamas soldier is
Speaker 1: one civilian, which is both good and bad. It's bad
Speaker 1: because it's always going to be bad. There should never
Speaker 1: be a civilian cost to get rid of the soldier.
Speaker 1: But it's good because it's such a condensed area that
Speaker 1: only getting you know, the racial only being one person
Speaker 1: per one soldier. It shows how precise they are. Obviously
Speaker 1: they have a lot further to go. The problem, however,
Speaker 1: is the accuracy of that data. Sure, and it comes
Speaker 1: from Ami. But this is just what I'm told him.
Speaker 1: So I'm sharing you the way I was told the paraphra.
Speaker 2: Just because people will hear this after so much more
Speaker 2: information has been provided.
Speaker 1: You know that that's more than fair. Ramses does not
Speaker 1: know that it's not one for one sure. Sure, and
Speaker 1: this this was I had this conversation maybe a week
Speaker 1: or so ago. So there's been a lot more death
Speaker 1: and destruction since I've had this conversation. Quoted. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: not at all. I'm doing my best record now. He
Speaker 1: said to me, He's like the israel The Israeli government
Speaker 1: will send information, drop leaflets, whatever, say hey, you have
Speaker 1: an hour to vacate. We're going to blow this building up.
Speaker 1: And the people that get out cool. The people that
Speaker 1: don't they're just there in the aftermath. And so this
Speaker 1: is what Amy told me. The the Israeli government's position
Speaker 1: is now to be just to give you a little
Speaker 1: bit of background, Amy has spent time with This is
Speaker 1: what he told me. He spent time with hamas undercover.
Speaker 1: He's a journalist, so think like those journalists that go overseas,
Speaker 1: and you know, and of course, because because he's I
Speaker 1: got to make sure.
Speaker 2: Some of us being a militant political group now seen
Speaker 2: as a terrorist organization.
Speaker 1: Right right, And and Amy's been on our show before.
Speaker 1: We don't agree about much politically speaking, but we do
Speaker 1: respect Amy as a journalist, and we respect him as
Speaker 1: our Jewish brother. And I think he's a good man.
Speaker 1: He means well. His tactics and his policies and his
Speaker 1: thoughts and you know that sort of stuff that's all debatable,
Speaker 1: but I know that I feel that he has a
Speaker 1: good heart, and that's really the measure of a man
Speaker 1: to me, Right, we all have lessons to learn. I'm
Speaker 1: still growing and so is he. With that in mind,
Speaker 1: I wanted to share that, and I do want to
Speaker 1: share a bit about what John Stewart said about Israel
Speaker 1: and Palestine, because John Stewart is a tremendous voice in
Speaker 1: this space, and he's a Jewish man, and so he
Speaker 1: doesn't I don't think he would naturally side with Palestine,
Speaker 1: nor would he because he's a critical thinker, nor would
Speaker 1: he side with Israel. But he is Jewish, and so
Speaker 1: I think that he sits at a particular intersection where
Speaker 1: maybe we can learn something from him that we You
Speaker 1: and I certainly wouldn't be able to offer the conversation.
Speaker 1: And just you, the listener, on your own travels, maybe
Speaker 1: you might not come to these conclusions on your own souls.
Speaker 2: I challenged a listener to listen to the lack of
Speaker 2: extremism in his belief Yeah, that's not his His views
Speaker 2: are not polarizing, Like you said, He's a critical thinker
Speaker 2: and he presents them with nuance in a way that
Speaker 2: a simple person should be able to hear the language
Speaker 2: that he uses and understand what he means.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, now speaking of colonialism, like God right here.
Speaker 4: I appreciate you as an artist and as a humanitarian,
Speaker 4: as a human being, because I imagine it can be difficult
Speaker 4: because you are someone who is righteously speaks out against
Speaker 4: the disgusting, violent, terrible anti Semitism that comes from all
Speaker 4: facets of our society. But you also are humanitarian enough
Speaker 4: to speak on behalf of Palestinians who are being being
Speaker 4: treated like second class citizens.
Speaker 3: And do you get any pushback as a Jewish person
Speaker 3: because of.
Speaker 5: This, No, everybody's cool. Everybody's cool with it until they
Speaker 5: find your email, of course.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: Again, it's and there are a lot of reasons for that,
Speaker 5: but one of them is that as a Jewish person,
Speaker 5: you are saddled with the idea that you are not
Speaker 5: a citizen of America or a citizen of the world.
Speaker 5: You are a citizen of Israel and you must back
Speaker 5: their actions or the actions of and one has nothing
Speaker 5: to do with the other, and one has nothing to
Speaker 5: do with being Jewish or not being Jewish or whatever
Speaker 5: it is that people choose on their religion, or on
Speaker 5: their history, or on their background. It has to do
Speaker 5: with in the way that I view governments that don't
Speaker 5: act on behalf of or that you know, what has
Speaker 5: happened in that part of the world is tragic and unfortunately,
Speaker 5: I think the biggest problem is it's to nobody's benefit
Speaker 5: but the Palestinian people that it get resolved. It's not
Speaker 5: to the benefit of the Israeli government. They use the
Speaker 5: Palestinian issue as a cudgel, and they continue to build
Speaker 5: settlements and whatever it is that they want to do.
Speaker 5: And no one's suggesting that, like terror attacks are okay,
Speaker 5: and that's a good thing. But if you're held to
Speaker 5: that standard that you don't get your state until nobody
Speaker 5: tries to kill anybody else, then you're never going to
Speaker 5: get your state. It's not to the benefit of the
Speaker 5: other Arab leaders in the region because their people can
Speaker 5: be mistreated in the same way by their autocracies. So
Speaker 5: why do they want to fix the Palestinian situation when
Speaker 5: they can use Israel as an easy code to get
Speaker 5: their people in line.
Speaker 1: Don't look at us, Look at.
Speaker 3: Israel right right, We're working with you.
Speaker 5: Look how they with the Palestinians. It's not to the
Speaker 5: United States benefit because we have an ally in the
Speaker 5: region that's a lot more complicated for us than in
Speaker 5: other ways because they rely on our military aid and
Speaker 5: all kinds of other things. So if it's not in
Speaker 5: anybody's interests in the powers of status quo, what chance
Speaker 5: do they have.
Speaker 3: It's a very efficient way of looking at it, that's
Speaker 3: exactly what it is.
Speaker 5: But what chance And it's not really to Hamas's benefit
Speaker 5: And it's not to FATA's benefit because then they lose
Speaker 5: their grip on power. So there's only people who always
Speaker 5: lose are the day and day out palastin in p
Speaker 5: because it's to no one's benefit to help them put them.
Speaker 2: Yes indeed, wow, yeah, what do we say after that?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: If we could have tried to put all of our
Speaker 2: thoughts into chat GPT and heave it, give us the ai,
Speaker 2: give us the right way to talk about this. A
Speaker 2: white Jewish American.
Speaker 6: Rich, rich, well off successful, he'd be fine if he
Speaker 6: didn't talk about these things, but offering some humanitarian perspective
Speaker 6: on behalf of a people that are not his, but
Speaker 6: that he sees that are under the thumb.
Speaker 1: Yeap. You know, we talked about Zionism.
Speaker 2: And the important part that I left out is that
Speaker 2: what is now Palestine is now is the land that
Speaker 2: those that believe in Zionism want to reclaim for Jewish
Speaker 2: or Israeli people, and that's where that conflict started one
Speaker 2: hundred years ago or probably longer ago than that.
Speaker 1: So let me make sure that we say this here.
Speaker 1: We are learning about this in real time. Along with
Speaker 1: most everyone else. We do our best to not let
Speaker 1: any conversation devolve into fighting and that sort of stuff
Speaker 1: that doesn't help anyone. This show was created out of love.
Speaker 1: We are on record having stood with our Jewish brothers
Speaker 1: and sisters against a super megastar thing a trademark away
Speaker 1: from him so that he couldn't maneuver in anti black
Speaker 1: spaces and effectively challenging his anti Semitic rhetoric and media outlets.
Speaker 1: That's well documented. You could google that, google civic ciphers,
Speaker 1: see what comes up. And then historically we've always stood
Speaker 1: with our Muslim brothers and sisters. You know, for a
Speaker 1: long time it felt very we felt very connected, and
Speaker 1: I know that personally and individually we celebrate our relationships
Speaker 1: with our brothers and sisters of Islam. Every word that
Speaker 1: we've uttered on this show has come from a place
Speaker 1: of love, and I hope that this conversation has kind
Speaker 1: of let a little air out of the ball. There's
Speaker 1: no need for people to be so angry or so oppositional.
Speaker 1: It's complicated, it's changing, we're all learning, and our hope
Speaker 1: is that it resolves as peacefully as it can. With
Speaker 1: that in mind, we have to leave it right there.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to thank you once again for tuning
Speaker 1: in a civic ccipher. I'm host rams' jaw.
Speaker 2: He is ram Jaw, I am qboard. Let's continue conversations
Speaker 2: like this where we're building bridges and trying to lead
Speaker 2: with love instead of the other way around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I for people that know way more than
Speaker 1: we do. We know it might sound like we're just
Speaker 1: naive and we don't understand the complexities. And maybe you're right,
Speaker 1: but I'd rather die on this hill where I'm optimistic
Speaker 1: and hopeful and I'm trying my best to make sure
Speaker 1: that people have a little bit more love in their
Speaker 1: voice than any other one.
Speaker 2: So you and someone want to challenge us on semantics,
Speaker 2: here the actual message, and don't try to tear us
Speaker 2: down about the details or data.
Speaker 1: Points that were wrong about you.
Speaker 2: Appreciate people, Innocent, people shouldn't be murdered no matter how
Speaker 2: they look.
Speaker 1: Love or pray. Yeah. Follow us on all social media
Speaker 1: as civic scipher. We're booming. Yeah, And until next week, y'all. Peace, Peace,