WEBVTT - The FAA and EMI 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:07.240 Get in touch with technology with text Stuff from half 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:13.960 stuff works dot com say they're welcome to text stuff. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.720 I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm Lauren Bultium, And today we 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.240 wanted to look at a topic that has a lot 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.520 of our listeners interested. I mean they We received requests 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.720 on this multiple times. Yes, I think that I requested 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.240 this for myself because it's a topic of interest, certainly 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.040 with the amount of flying that I do on occasion. Yeah. Yeah. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.199 So we're talking about electronics and the F A, A 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:42.199 and E, M, I and other uh initialisms occasionally acronyms. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.960 Uh yeah. So we're talking about why is it that 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.680 you can use certain electronics on a plane at certain times, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.400 other times you're not allowed to use them unless you 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.600 reach a certain altitude, and some you're not allowed to 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.800 use at all. And is playing the Jeweled on your phone? 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.080 Um really going to make the plane crash? Yeah? Uh. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.520 And so we're going to cover all that now. Long 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.119 time listeners of tech stuff are going to say, hey, 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.839 didn't didn't you Jonathan and and Chris do something about 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.160 this long time ago? And the truth is, yes, we 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:13.920 did do an episode where we talked a little bit 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.240 about electronics and planes. But the stories has developed over 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.680 the years since we recorded that episode. In fact, there 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.080 was a report in June two thousand and thirteen. That's 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.880 the year in which we are recording this podcast, right, 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:29.760 just a couple months back where we are recording this 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.280 at the beginning of September, by the way, yep and 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.000 uh and so back in June, there was this report 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.160 that initially had everyone all excited because it sounded like 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.440 the f a A it was going to lift restrictions 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.640 on certain electronics during takeoff and landing, meaning that you 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:49.280 would not have to switch your kindle or your tablet 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.320 off before the plane was leading the gate right right 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.480 up until you know, right now, they usually have you 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.880 turned everything off before you reach ten thousand feet, right, 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.360 and at that point then you can turn the cruising 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.480 altitude at which you can turn on approved electronic electronics. Right. 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:06.640 There's a little airplane mode and there's a list of 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.120 approved electronic devices that you can find in whatever, in 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.600 the back of your whatever brand magazine, yeah, whatever whatever 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.480 airline you happen to be on. So there was there 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.480 was talk that they were going to lift those restrictions 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.840 and not necessarily lift them on all electronics. So in 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.480 other words, things like cell phones may still not be 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:28.239 allowed to be used outside of airplane mode, but other 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.799 electronic devices would be allowable even when you were below 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.760 ten thousand feet. However, shortly after that, I think in July, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.320 at some point um that A sort of said, hey, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.280 we were we need more time to look at this. Yeah, 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.440 they were saying like like it is long overdue for 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.760 us to look at the effects. However, that being said 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.639 that we want to do extensive testing before we just 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.079 say yes, it's it's perfectly fine. Right, So the official 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:01.440 report is due out sometime this month supposedly. Yeah, so 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.560 maybe by the time you hear this podcast, it may 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:05.480 be that we have an official word from the f 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.040 a A. But in case that would be really terrific 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.880 news gathering on on our party. Well it's just from 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.639 the incredible past. Yes, yes, and in which case you 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.720 you might say, like, wow, this this episode is a 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.639 quaint that they're talking about this thing. Um, but we 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.680 still need to talk about why is there a concern 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.240 in the first place. And it all boils down to 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:32.359 electromagnetic interference or e M I. What is em I? Jonathan, So, Lauren, 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.640 you may have heard about this relationship between electricity and magnetism. 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:43.040 We've talked about it once or twice per episode. Yeah, 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.080 it's one of those things that kind of makes electronics work. Yeah. Yeah. 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.240 In fact, electric motors and dynamos are all based off 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.560 this relationship between electricity and magnetism. And of course the 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:57.040 basic way of demonstrating this is using an electromagnet, which 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.160 we have all played with at some point or another. 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.520 I'm sure even if you don't know it, but if 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.160 you've ever built one, you know it's simple. You take 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.640 like an iron nail and you wrap some copper wire 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.600 around it in several coils, and then you run a 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.760 current through that copper wire. It will magnetize the nail 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:15.440 so that you can use it like a magnet. You 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.919 can pick up iron filings, anything that's you know that 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.400 ferro magnetic uh feature to it. You can manipulate until 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.200 you disconnect the battery, right, in which case the flow 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:30.240 of electrons ends through that that copper wire and eventually 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.840 the magnetic properties fade away. Now, also you can end 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.760 up moving a copper wire through a magnetic field, especially 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.159 a fluctuating magnetic field, and that will induce electricity to 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:46.239 flow through the wire. So any sort of conductor actually, 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.440 this will happen if a conductor moves through a fluctuating 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:52.799 magnetic field, that will induce an electric current to flow 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.760 through that conductor. So this is just that basic relationship 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.960 between magnetism and electricity. Again, so many our electronics really 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.880 depend upon this. And you need the voltage and current. 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.840 So current is the actual flow voltage. Voltage is the 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.240 difference in potential. Right, It's like you know, you get 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.039 voltage if you plug a lamp into a wall socket, 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.480 but you don't get current until you switch the lamp 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.160 on exactly. And then once you switch that lamp on, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.840 if you were to have some sort of detector, an 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.839 e m I detector near that that wire, it would 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.720 detect the magnetic field. It would actually be or buzz 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.800 or whatever. And in fact, I've seen kits where or 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.400 or instructions online where you can build your own e 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.640 m I detector out of like an ur Duino controller 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.960 and something like under an hour. Yeah yeah, yeah. So 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.920 if you ever want a fun and I know that 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:49.839 that's fun and quotation marks for some of you, but 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.920 a fun programming projects something that's very simple, Uh, there 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.200 are a lot of guides online to building a em 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.720 I detector using in our dwino as the brains of it, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.320 a few other pieces. It's a really clear one and um, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.320 I believe popular mechanics while I was researching for this episode. 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.080 So I'll see if I can remember to link that 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.560 on Twitter, right, right, and so anyway, the key here 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:14.279 and the reason why you would want an eam I 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.960 detected a couple of reasons. One is that maybe you 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.000 want to see if any of your devices are using 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.880 what we call vampire power. That's when the device is 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.800 continuing to consume electricity even when it's turned off. Right, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.719 it's plugged in but still running. Yeah, so there are 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.560 a lot of TVs, for example, that have vampire power issues. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.599 They don't when you turn them off. They're not really 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.120 all the way off. And the reason for that is 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.360 so that when you turn your television on, the screen 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.880 comes on quickly, and it's because there was already a 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.400 low level amount of power being supplied to the set. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.799 If you were to turn that power completely off, the 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.279 warm up time would be a little longer, and as 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.400 we know, customers get a little antsy if they have 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.280 to wait for the t vs right that, or I 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.360 think some fluorescent bulbs work on similar principles, right. So, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.719 so in other words, if you want to be greener 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.120 or you want to save money on your electric bill, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:12.720 and e m I detector will tell you which devices 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.920 are still consuming power and if you like, you could 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.880 set those up on a power strip that is that 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.520 will truly turn off, because there are plenty of those 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:22.200 on the market to where you can buy a power strip, 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.200 plug your devices that use vampire power into that, and 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.240 then you just use the power strip to turn shut 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.240 it off, you know, shut off the real z. Yeah, 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.840 So that way you don't have to worry about any 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.360 more power consumption. Another reason you might worry about e 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.280 m I is if you have a medical device that 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.600 is sensitive to such things like a pacemaker. So people 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:50.560 with pacemakers can experience problems that pacemakers can can experience 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:56.400 conflicting information when you encounter something like electromagnetic radiation. Right. 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.240 The way that pacemakers work is it detects your heartbeat, 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.920 and so if it runs into some a some e 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:06.239 m I, it could misinterpret that as either a faulty 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.280 heartbeat and and if it's connected to a defilibrator give 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.440 you an unwanted electric shock or even possibly misinterpreted as 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.720 a healthy heartbeat, and miss giving you a shock that 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.440 you need right exactly. So this is why you hear 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.120 about people with pacemakers having to be very careful about 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.080 the kind of electronics they come into contact with. Usually 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.800 there are very uh simple rules that they follow, things 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.080 like if you if you've got a cell phone, you 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.720 don't let the cell phone get within say six inches 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.080 of where the device is. That kind of thing. For 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:37.880 the most part, it's not a very big deal. It's 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.280 the kind of thing that you know, the guidelines are like, well, 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.160 keep your arc welders a good twelve inches away from 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:47.840 your chest and don't use a jackhammer. But but but 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:49.840 these are things that obviously, you know, you're talking about 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.440 matters of life and death. So clearly that's why you 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.040 get these these precautions there. Some of them are perhaps 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.200 overly cautious, but it's in the sense of the just 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.040 to make sure a person maintains, uh, you know, a 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.120 healthy life. This device and you know, anything like a 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.200 like a cell phone. If you've ever put your cell 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.600 phone too close to your computer speakers, especially if you 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.720 have external computer speakers and they're plugged in. If you've 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.080 bought a pair of speakers that you plug in through 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.559 say a headphone jack, and you have ever had your 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.480 phone near them, and you hear this weird kind of 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:28.280 electronic stuttering noise goes like dad date Like that sounds 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:33.120 like someone's trying to uh. That actually is due to 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.760 electromagnetic interference. It's when your phone is either sending out 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.160 or receiving data. So for example, if you're getting text 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.600 messages or that sort of thing, Um, it's those radio 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.680 waves that and the signals coming from the phone are 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:51.160 interfering with the actual uh fields that are being generated 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:55.120 by those wires. Now, you can create really well shielded 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.640 wires that that block a lot of this interference. Fair 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.480 day cage technology has come a very very very long 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.920 way since Mr Faraday. Yeah, so we are able to 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.920 insulate wires really well so that one we prevent leakage, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.680 because that is a thing where where electronics can leak 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.080 electrons and thus either have errors or they're less efficient 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.839 as far as power goes. And you can also block interference. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.880 So if you've got a really nice pair of speakers 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.600 or headphones or whatever, it is then that's going to 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.560 block a lot more of that E m I and 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.200 you're not going to get those weird little stuttering noises. 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.240 Uh So the reason why we're even mentioning this is 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:42.160 that on your typical aircraft, there are a few different 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.120 systems that use wires, all of them. As as it 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.240 turns out, an aircraft is made of electronics, and you know, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.480 the the radio when it's talking to ground control and 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.079 air traffic, the radar, which you know gets the plane places, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.400 which is kind of import sure. Yeah, there's uh there's 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.760 a specific kind of radio, a c n S radio 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:11.520 also known as communication navigation surveillance radio that's getting navigation 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.360 information as the aircraft is traveling. That's a very important 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.840 piece of equipment. And there are other things as well 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.239 that could in theory be affected by electronics and specifically 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.120 electromagnetic interference. So if you have a device that gives 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.000 off a great deal of E m I and you 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.400 happen to be in an area where you are near 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.679 the circuit, yeah, then you could introduce some interference. So 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.840 that's the biggest fear, right. Well, here's the thing is 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:43.000 that most aircraft are shielded pretty well against this sort 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.000 of stuff. But it's the the concern is still there 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:50.240 because again you're talking about a maybe it's a low risk, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.640 but it's a high impact problem obviously, so it may 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.320 not happen frequently, but if it does happen, that could 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.360 be catastrophic, which again is why we have these these 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.920 really tie restrictions on electronics. It's not so much that, uh, 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.599 they are that the government is unaware. The f a 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.280 A is unaware that most electronic devices put out a 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.880 very very tiny footprint when it comes to this sort 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.480 of stuff. They're aware of that, but they're also aware 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:20.480 that the the potential outcome of a worst case scenario 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.680 is absolutely catastrophic. So with that in mind, that's when 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.600 you you know, you have to try and prevent the 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.560 worst case scenario from happening. Now, all of this dates 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.280 back to the nineteen sixties really, and that's when it 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:41.440 became pretty clear that handheld electronic devices could be an issue. 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.520 You see, there are different sources of em my interference 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.120 or about the same thing, is the same thing as 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:52.040 a t M machine or interfere my interference. Okay, there's 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.040 several sources of em I, not just your you know, 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.400 cell phone or your e reader or tablet or whatever. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.079 There's stuff like lightning. Yeah, and and records about that 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.960 go back to about the nineteen thirties, I think is 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.280 when we started having in the United States anyway f 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.840 A regulations about how to protect planes from lightning strikes. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.079 Right now, you know, lightning is a very powerful, powerful thing. 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:21.480 Obviously you're talking about incredible amounts of energy when with 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.840 the typical lightning strike, but even today, like if you 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.400 were to talk about a direct lightning strike, because planes 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.520 do get hit by lightning. If you were if you 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.520 were in a plane and you got hit by lightning, 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.240 that lightning is going to have a minimal impact on 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.640 the aircraft because aircraft have been designed since the thirties 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.320 to resist lightning strikes, to to be able to continue 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:48.760 operation with minimal if any interruption in any kind of service, 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.719 to make sure that you know, we can get there 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:56.240 safely from point A to point B. And so I've 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.920 actually been in a plane that's been struck by lightning. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.360 I sitting at a window seat right there by the wing. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.360 It was spectacular. Spectacular sounds like one word for it. 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:07.840 But and I was a kid at the time. I 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.360 just thought it was cool, but the kid that would 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:15.320 be great, and nothing nothing happened, Like there's not a 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.920 flicker of lights, nothing, nothing scary happened other than the 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.560 fact that I saw lightning hit the plane, um, which 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.680 certain some of our listeners would argue is terrifying, but 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.680 I thought it was kind of cool at the time. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.840 But other things too, Right, well, as we started developing 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.360 more portable electronics and I'm not talking about your your iPhone, 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:40.160 I'm talking about radio and electronic devices that helped to 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:45.400 um autonomize flight. Oh yes, which which is what started 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.120 happening in the sixties, which is why these regulations started 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.240 popping up. Sure, yeah, that was the rise of two 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.840 different things, just like you were pointing out the fact 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:57.200 that we were getting things like like the automatic pilot 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.120 type of technology, as well as the fact that the 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.760 transistor had suddenly made electronics portable. Right, that whole thing, 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:07.960 that that thing where computers no longer had to be 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.160 the size of say, an airplane, they could be a 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.440 little bit smaller. Or a radio radio is the size 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.160 of your television console, which is also the size of 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.640 your Cadillac. Yeah. Right. Also, did I just say autonomate 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.400 because that's amazing. Well, hey, all I can tell you 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.680 is that I come from a suburban area. Longtime listeners 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.880 of tech stuff will appreciate that reference. I still haven't 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.600 lived that one down, but yeah, we're talking about the 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.000 fact that that you suddenly had people capable of bringing 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.040 electronic devices aboard a plane on their person because now 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.960 they were small enough to do that, and we had 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.800 these more sensitive devices that were part of plane systems, 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.720 and it became clear that a something as simple as 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:57.360 a compact radio receiver could interfere with VHF omni ranging 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.160 navigation systems aboard and aircraft. These were studies being done 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.920 by NASA at the time. Yeah, NASA did this, and 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.960 so did the Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics did one, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.360 which at the time was still a actual part of 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.720 the government. I think at this point in time it's 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:18.040 a independent, not for profit company that is tasked with 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.320 all of their research that the FAA wants done. So 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.440 the the big paper that came out in the sixties 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.240 that kind of set the rules for what we think 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.600 of today, as you know, follow these instructions and you 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.280 can use electronic devices. The paper is called Interference to 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.760 Aircraft Electronic equipment from devices carried aboard. So that's where 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.240 we got this idea that personal electronic devices or peds 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.920 p e d s are a potential source of malfunction 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.240 or dysfunction aboard and aircraft. So it's a complicated issue 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.760 in the nineteen seventies and got more complicated because that's 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.520 when the aircraft industry really began to look at other 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.760 sources of e m I, not just lightning strikes, but 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.760 things like broadcast hours. We have all these different radio towers, 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:07.440 television towers, communication towers that are sending out vast amounts 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.800 of information via radio. Right. The nineteen seventies was also, 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.840 if you remember from our recent Cutting the Cord Cable podcast, 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:19.800 that was when many cable companies started um started transmitting 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.120 to larger areas. Yeah, so we've got all these different 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.920 potential sources of e m I, and again the aircraft 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.560 needed to be shielded against that sort of stuff. Yeah. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.320 Then then again around two thousand three and two thousand four, 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.680 when we started seeing more, uh more cellular phones being 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.960 carried onto planes, that was when we started getting a 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.120 few studies about these um they call them a transmitting 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.280 pads or tea pads. Right, which which are transmitting signals 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:52.399 on purpose. Right, So you've got two different kinds of pads. Then, right, 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.280 you've personal electron devices. You've got your kind that will 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.960 transmit information or or at least rather transmit electromagnetic and 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.520 interference simply through the operation. But they're not it's that's 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.760 not their main purpose. It's just a byproduct by the 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.040 fact that they are electronics. And then you have the 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.000 the transmitting ones that are specifically things like radios or 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.640 cell phones, that kind of stuff that are emitting and 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:21.760 receiving radio waves or other signals. So, uh, if you 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.480 look at your list of approved electronic devices, you're gonna 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.720 see a lot of the pads on there, and uh, 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.560 for the ones that don't make the list, you're gonna 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.240 see some teap heads on there. Although there's some changes 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.480 obviously because now we have things like WiFi aboard planes, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.639 and WiFi allows us to use things like you can 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.159 use a cell phone in airplane mode that can connect 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.760 via WiFi, or you can use a laptop that has WiFi. 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.840 So there's some confusion here, at least among the consumer level, 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.080 about well, why can I use these devices that do 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:56.640 have wireless communication standards attached to them, but not these 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.439 other devices that use different anders. And further complicating it, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.800 there's some international flights that will allow you to use 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.040 a cellular phone for cellular purposes on on a flight, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.560 but it's a in that specific case, they're connecting to 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.960 a ground station that is capable of dealing with the 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.040 fact that that you're in a five mile per hour 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.640 what's that like, eight hundred kilometer per hour moving airplane, 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.680 otherwise you're gonna start mucking up the cellular system. Well, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.360 the fact that you'd be doing those handshakes every five 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.199 seconds as you move from one cellular tower to another. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.200 In fact, that's that's also the way that if you've 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.520 ever been on a plane that had a phone in 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:36.439 the back of one of the seats in front of you, 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:38.760 where you could swipe your credit card and use the phone, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:43.439 same sort of thing, where it was using specific ground uh. 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:45.720 I don't think any of them were satellite phones that 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.159 would have been pretty incredible, but I think all of 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.320 them used the ground central control thing where you would, 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.560 depending upon your position among your flight, you would call 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.920 into a very specific station. They were also really expensive. 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:03.280 Um so NASA when it was looking at em I threats. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.600 It classifies threats in three ways. It looks at the source, 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.320 the path, and the victim. So the source is whatever 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.480 device is actually generating the e m I. The path 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.359 is how that e m I travels through space, whether 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:21.199 it's radiating out from the device itself or whether it 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.679 is connected to a to a power line, to a 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:27.080 ground line. Right, yeah, whether it's transmitting ground line doesn't 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.119 count in there. Well, if it's if it's connected to 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.400 the power source of the plane, or if it's connected 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.600 directly into some other system of the plane. Because we're 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.679 not just talking about the electronics that we carry on board. 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.560 There are electronic devices that are that the crew are 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.560 using that that can connect directly to flight systems, uh, 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.320 that sort of thing. But how does that e m 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.960 I travel from the device? And in the case of 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.520 all p e D s, really we're talking radiating here, 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:00.240 it's it's not directly connected to the flight systems. And 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.200 then the victim is whatever system would be affected by that. 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.600 And again, when we were talking about the different systems 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.159 that could be affected on a plane, one of the 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:16.560 most um vulnerable really traditionally at any rate, is that communication, navigation, 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:21.359 surveillance radio, the CNS radio. So this is one that 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.199 of course the name kind of gives it away. It 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.679 gets it's part of the navigation system for the plane. 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.600 And errors from e m I could mean that the 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.320 pilot has erroneous information or that some of his instruments 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.560 or her instruments are not properly displaying the right kinds 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.760 of data, which could lead to uh to human error, 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.280 or it could actually lead to another Yeah, and the 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:51.119 computer might might suddenly and see that there are changing 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.520 parameters and try to adjust for that, when in fact 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.600 that parameters aren't changing. So that's where the concern is, 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:02.760 but doesn't really happen. Well, we'll get into the actual 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:09.160 results sort of things. Talk about some actual reported assumed incidents. 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.840 In some case some some studies, there's little quote marks 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:15.480 in the air that have been Yeah, but with some 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:17.480 some studies that have been done. We'll talk about those 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.240 in just a minute. But first let's take a quick 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.480 break to thank our sponsor, and now let's get back 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:28.200 to some e m I information. Some let's really talk 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:33.040 about what the documented incidents like, actual documented cases of 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:39.520 personal electronic devices causing problems with aircraft. Technically, there are none. 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.399 I've got a whole bunch of documented ones that maybe Okay, 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.120 it depends on it depends on what we mean by documented, 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:50.960 because in all of these cases, we're we're gonna be 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:55.280 talking about studies from several different organizations, and um, as 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:57.840