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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and we have another vault episode

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Speaker 1: for you. Since this is a holiday week for us,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a Monstrous Feast, which originally

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Speaker 1: published eleven, twenty one, twenty twenty four. So yes, this

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Speaker 1: is our this is our feast themed episode, and it's

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Speaker 1: going to get into some questionable recent inventions of the

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Speaker 1: culinary variety and also some monstrous dishes of the past.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is.

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Speaker 3: Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. Hey, what are

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Speaker 3: we talking about today.

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Speaker 1: Rob, Oh, we're getting into feasting season here, Joe. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to do what we've done in the past,

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Speaker 1: devote an episode to food, but not just you know,

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Speaker 1: just any food. In the past, we've talked about dangerous foods.

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Speaker 1: We did several episodes on that. You can find those

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Speaker 1: if you go back into the archives. But this time

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking particularly about some various feast dishes,

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Speaker 1: some outrageous feast dishes, and then also some sort of

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Speaker 1: related tangential subject matter that's sort of swirling around those dishes.

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Speaker 3: Now, I am salivating at the thought of the beauties

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Speaker 3: and the grotesqueries to follow.

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Speaker 1: Yes, historic dishes of over indulgence, you might call them,

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Speaker 1: and such dishes exist throughout the history of human feasting.

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Speaker 1: As long as human populations have even periodically experienced surplus

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Speaker 1: and or inequality, there's been room for dishes that simply

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Speaker 1: go above and beyond what seems reasonable. Decadent delicacies occupied

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Speaker 1: the tables of the ancient Romans. We'll mention a few,

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Speaker 1: and of course still to this day we find such

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Speaker 1: dishes on our tables.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but I know you got crankin' on this topic

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Speaker 3: because you were interested in one particular example from history, right.

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Speaker 1: That's right, one that you know I think I've had

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Speaker 1: like a vague familiarity with for a long time because

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've seen depictions of it before. I'm

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Speaker 1: really struggling to figure out if I've actually seen a

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Speaker 1: depiction of this in a film or TV show. But

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Speaker 1: it's possible because it's a great way to sort of

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Speaker 1: center what's going on in your setting. But yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: going to turn to fifteenth century Europe, So the Middle

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Speaker 1: Ages are giving way to the first stirrings of the Renaissance,

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Speaker 1: and it's just prime time to sew a suckling pig

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Speaker 1: and a chicken together and serve it to a bunch

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Speaker 1: of nobles and royals. A lot of great things come

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Speaker 1: out of the Renaissance, yes, but there are some. There

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Speaker 1: are some real clunkers that come out of it as well.

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Speaker 1: And this and this, I don't know. This could be

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Speaker 1: one of them. I have not tried it, I will

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Speaker 1: not be trying it, but it is not impossible that

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Speaker 1: some of you out there have tried it. The addition

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Speaker 1: question is the cock and trice not to be confused

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Speaker 1: with another word that you may find not in a

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Speaker 1: menu from a tutor England, but more likely in a bestiary.

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Speaker 3: That's right, So this other word is cock a trice

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Speaker 3: rather than cock en trice. It's easy to confuse the two.

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Speaker 3: They are phonetically similar, spelled similarly, but different things altogether.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm not going to go extremely deep here because

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Speaker 3: the cockatrice subject will have some overlap with our past

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Speaker 3: discussions of the mythical monster known as the basilisk. These

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Speaker 3: creatures were in many cases, not all, but in many

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Speaker 3: cases treated as the same thing. A cockatrice is sort

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Speaker 3: of a loosely defined monster, usually combining Avian and reptilian

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Speaker 3: features or associations. Sometimes it is kind of straightforwardly a wivern.

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Speaker 3: It's like a dragon with two legs, no little t

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Speaker 3: rex arms, just the two legs and then two wings,

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Speaker 3: and then a rooster's head. It appears in this form

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Speaker 3: or roughly this form in some medieval manuscripts and some heraldry,

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Speaker 3: but in other cases it's described as a kind of

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Speaker 3: fantastically venomous serpent, or as a serpent that hatches from

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Speaker 3: a cock's egg, sometimes after like a cock egg, is

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Speaker 3: incubated by a reptile or a toad. Generally, a cockatrice

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Speaker 3: is bad news. It is a venomous monster or a

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Speaker 3: monster that kills everything around it. Though there is an

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Speaker 3: interesting literary history of this word, because if you go

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Speaker 3: reading the King James translation of the Bible, you will

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Speaker 3: find lots of references to the cockatrice as a kind

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Speaker 3: of beast or venomous monster. A couple of examples I

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Speaker 3: dug up. One is from the Book of Isaiah, chapter

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Speaker 3: fifty nine, verses four to five, which say none calleth

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Speaker 3: for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth. They trust in

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Speaker 3: vanity and speak lies. They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.

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Speaker 3: They hatch cockatrice eggs and weave the spider's web. He

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Speaker 3: that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is

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Speaker 3: crushed breaketh out into a viper. Common theme you will

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Speaker 3: get in some of the Old Testament books of the prophets, is,

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Speaker 3: you know, comparing wickedness and sin and lack of moral

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Speaker 3: virtue to venomous animals and predatory animals, dangerous beasts.

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Speaker 1: So no hatching cockatrice eggs. That's what I'm taking for

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Speaker 1: the scripture.

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Speaker 3: That's not a good thing to do. You bring forth iniquity.

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Speaker 3: Another good one I found just this one was a

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Speaker 3: little pithier. This is from the Book of Jeremiah, chapter eight,

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Speaker 3: verse seventeen, again the King James translation. It says, for behold,

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Speaker 3: I will send serpents cockatrices among you, which will not

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Speaker 3: be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the Lord.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, let's say to the point.

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Speaker 3: They shall bite you. Now. The word cockatrice does not

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Speaker 3: appear in later translations of the Bible that are better

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Speaker 3: informed about what the original Greek and Hebrew words that

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Speaker 3: are being translated usually mean. The English usage of cockatrice

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Speaker 3: in the Bible traces back to John Wickliffe's English translation

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Speaker 3: of the Old Testament, in which a Hebrew word that

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Speaker 3: probably originally referred to like a snake of venomous reptile

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Speaker 3: is taken as referring to this strange monster which was

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Speaker 3: already sort of in consciousness, in part derived from stories

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Speaker 3: that go back to plenty of the Elder and I

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Speaker 3: think we've actually talked about these stories before in our

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Speaker 3: episodes on the Basilisk. But the cockatrice also has some

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Speaker 3: interesting etymological confusion in its history because the English word

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Speaker 3: cockatrice is recorded as far back as Late Middle English.

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Speaker 3: It's derived from an Old French term cockatrice, which in

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Speaker 3: turn comes from the Latin calcatrix. So it's not actually

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Speaker 3: related to the English word or the French word cock,

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Speaker 3: which meaning like you know, a rooster, which that's the

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Speaker 3: imagery we see in like this heraldry, where it's a

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Speaker 3: dragon with a rooster's head or somehow a cock's egg

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Speaker 3: that is hatched in conjunction with reptile interference. Instead, it

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Speaker 3: goes back to the Latin calcatrix, which means she who treads.

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Speaker 3: The Latin verb here is calcare, meaning to tread, So

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Speaker 3: a calcatrix is a female entity who treads. So there's

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Speaker 3: some more word confusion for you, but the main point

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Speaker 3: being that a cockatrice is a monster and a cockin

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Speaker 3: trice is something completely different. It is the food that

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Speaker 3: we're about to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't promise that the word is just

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Speaker 1: going to get any easier to digest, but yeah, the

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Speaker 1: cock and trice, to be clear, is a composite dish.

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Speaker 1: So in the front you have a suckling pig and

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Speaker 1: in the back a turkey or capon. Capon is a

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Speaker 1: neutered male chicken. So the result is a feast item

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Speaker 1: of intrigue, as if the folks present for the meal

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Speaker 1: are being served not an animal of the mundane world,

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Speaker 1: but rather some fantastic hybrid that you know belongs, perhaps

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Speaker 1: in a bestiary alongside the cock a trice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, make you monsters out of our food, a tradition

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Speaker 3: that is not entirely gone. By the way, I'm sure

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Speaker 3: many people listening have seen like viral images of this

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Speaker 3: sort that get shared around the internet. One that very

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Speaker 3: much sticks in my mind is whoever first had the

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Speaker 3: idea to make a face hugger from the Alien series

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Speaker 3: out of like a turkey's body with some crab legs

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Speaker 3: on the side, and then a tail made out of

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Speaker 3: like a stuffed sausage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's send me that photo. It's quite horrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes you want to eat them, you know.

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Speaker 1: And you know even you know, vegans and vegetari get

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Speaker 1: in on the action as well. I know in my

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Speaker 1: household it has become a tradition. On Halloween we make

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Speaker 1: a dish that is known by a few different names.

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Speaker 1: You and I, I think both know it as feet

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Speaker 1: of meat. It has also been called feet loaf. I

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Speaker 1: know Amy Sedaris calls it as such, but essentially it

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Speaker 1: is meat loafer. In our case, we was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: imitation meat that takes the form of one or two

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Speaker 1: disembodied bloody feet.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful. That's so nice.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I can't be too judging about all

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Speaker 1: this because I totally do it as well. Now, as

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Speaker 1: for the cockin trice here, I looked up some more

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Speaker 1: info on this in a book from Terry Breverton called

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Speaker 1: The tutor kitchen, and he goes into a little more

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Speaker 1: detail here mentions that the way you make one of

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Speaker 1: these things is that you first of all, you of

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Speaker 1: course butcher the two animals in question, and then once

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Speaker 1: you've butchered them, you know you've removed everything. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to be part of the finished meal,

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Speaker 1: you know how butchering works. You stitch these together, then

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Speaker 1: you stuff it as you would often stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: various feast items, as turkeys are still stuffed to this day,

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Speaker 1: you know, for Thanksgiving in America. And then you roast

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Speaker 1: it on a spit per, you know, the usual treatment

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Speaker 1: of the day. Now. Originally the dish, according to Breverton,

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Speaker 1: was known as cocka gris in this or perhaps catt agris,

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Speaker 1: and this is combining the words for cock and gris

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Speaker 1: a suckling pig. That being said, it does I mean,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't find much where people are really talking about

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Speaker 1: the the the comparison between these two words. It seems

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Speaker 1: to me that if the word for the monster cock

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Speaker 1: a trice is at all in some form like floating

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Speaker 1: around in one's vocabulary, then cock in trice is some

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Speaker 1: sort of an allusion to that but I couldn't find

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Speaker 1: any hard answers on that. There are also various other

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Speaker 1: spellings for the food item here the cock and trice,

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Speaker 1: as well as fifteenth century recipes that lay out the

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Speaker 1: steps to produce one. And this has long been a novelty.

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Speaker 1: It was a novelty when it was served on the

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Speaker 1: tables and Tutor England. And you can look around. You

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Speaker 1: can find various videos online of modern chefs and you know,

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Speaker 1: amateur chefs and streamers recreating it for entertainment purposes and

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Speaker 1: for exploration purposes, like there's nothing you know, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: you know you know off the board occurring in the

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Speaker 1: creation of this dish. I was looking around at various

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Speaker 1: people that were either talking directly about it or sometimes

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Speaker 1: just invoking it. As an example of the latter, I

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Speaker 1: saw a work by a writer by the name of

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Speaker 1: Karen Robber who described or raper, who describes it as

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Speaker 1: performing meat, which I thought was an interesting phrase, like

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Speaker 1: the meat eat in this case is not just here

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Speaker 1: for your consumption, one would assume it is also supposed

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Speaker 1: to taste good. But on top of that, it is

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Speaker 1: like the sheer performance of the presentation, which you know

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Speaker 1: that's gonna be president a lot of meals, but like

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Speaker 1: it becomes part of the forefront in a case like this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I might have some different terminology that we could

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Speaker 3: apply to this category later in the episode, but I'd

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Speaker 3: say I primarily think of this as stunt food.

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Speaker 1: Stunt food is good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's food that's not just to be eaten,

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Speaker 3: it's also to be admired as an act.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So, Reverenson's book contains numerous other, at least from

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Speaker 1: my vantage point, strange Tutor dishes. We can all disagree

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Speaker 1: on this, and you know, and ultimately I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are examples of similar dishes in various culinary and cultures

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Speaker 1: where it's like totally not weird for you to eat it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean what is weird in terms of

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Speaker 3: food is totally a matter of social and cultural expectations.

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Speaker 3: It's like what's familiar to us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So when I say it sounds weird to me,

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Speaker 1: it's weird because I'm imagining the Tudors eating this. But

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Speaker 1: this particular book includes references to such dishes as sliced

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Speaker 1: cow tongue, pie, boiled badger, boiled viper, swan with blood,

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Speaker 1: and entrail sauce.

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Speaker 3: Oh delicious.

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Speaker 1: This one really gave my wife pause. Cow's utters in

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Speaker 1: mustard sauce. I'm not sure where like that one kind

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Speaker 1: of hits in various ways, like when it's the utters,

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Speaker 1: but then also the mustard sauce. I really have a

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Speaker 1: hard time picturing.

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Speaker 3: This cow's utters in sweet and sour sauce I think

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Speaker 3: would work better.

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Speaker 1: And then also multiple peacock recipes, yes, peacocks.

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Speaker 3: Now wait, now that I'm thinking about it, why don't

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Speaker 3: any like these fast food chains have a dipping sauce

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Speaker 3: for your nuggets that is blood and entrail sauce.

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Speaker 1: I mean they could with the right market, you could

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Speaker 1: call it that and people would go nuts for it.

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Speaker 1: But these peacock recipes, oh my goodness. I think in

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Speaker 1: the past I'd run across examples of people eating peacocks

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Speaker 1: as a feast food, but I often forget about it

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Speaker 1: because I end up. You know, you see peacocks everywhere

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Speaker 1: they've spread. They've been introduced rather all over the world

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Speaker 1: from the Indian subcontinent, so most of you, I think

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Speaker 1: I've probably seen one. You know, they walk around the

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Speaker 1: males of the species, the peacocks, you know, look dazzling

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Speaker 1: with their feathers, and then of course you have the

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Speaker 1: pea hens, the females. More on the particulars in just

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Speaker 1: a second, but yes, recipes for this include the gilded peacock.

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Speaker 1: This is a sixteen sixty one recipe that calls for

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Speaker 1: the spit roasted bird to be covered with gold leaf

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Speaker 1: and recovered in the peacock's skin and feathers. After it's

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Speaker 1: been for the you butcher it, you set aside those

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Speaker 1: gorgeous feathers and its skin, and then you put it

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Speaker 1: all back together with gold leaf. Quote for recreation and

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Speaker 1: for magnificence. According to doctor John Wex, there's eighteen books

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Speaker 1: of the Secrets of Art in Nature from sixteen sixty one.

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Speaker 3: That sounds like a book by like John d Or Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like it would be alchemical in nature

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Speaker 1: and not about eating a peacock.

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Speaker 3: Not about how to have fun with peacock corpses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense. If you

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Speaker 1: can eat the peacock, you want to admire the feathers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so the pa foul is we may more accurately describe

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Speaker 1: these creatures consist of three different species. There are two

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Speaker 1: asiatic peacocks native to the Indian subcontinent, and there's also

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Speaker 1: a congo p fowl that is apparently actually not a

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Speaker 1: true pea fowl. The Indian pfowl is the key species

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Speaker 1: for our concerns here, notable for the splendid mating displays

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Speaker 1: made by the male peacocks that truly everyone has seen.

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Speaker 1: The bird was introduced as a novelty into Europe, traditionally

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Speaker 1: held as being introduced by the Macedonian general Alexander the

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Speaker 1: Great during the fourth century BCE, but something it might

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Speaker 1: have occurred earlier than that. It's an interesting bird in

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Speaker 1: its own right, and we could probably devote an entire

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Speaker 1: episode to it, no doubt, exploring its place, for example,

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Speaker 1: in the history of evolutionary theory, one of the many

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Speaker 1: animals that ends up being invoked in scientific discourse of

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Speaker 1: the day. Instead of all that, though, I want to

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Speaker 1: cut right to some interesting religious contexts for the peacock

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Speaker 1: from Indian traditions, and for this I turned once more

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Speaker 1: to Krishna's Sacred Animals of India. This is from Penguin Press.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go through everything that the author

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Speaker 1: shares here, but I want to hit some of the

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Speaker 1: key points. So first of all, the peacock. This is

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Speaker 1: not really religious at all, but the peacock is a

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Speaker 1: national bird of India. Getting into religious traditions, the peacock

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Speaker 1: is held does the animal form of the sky god Indra. Also,

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Speaker 1: it said that Indra granted the peacock its beautiful colors

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Speaker 1: after one of them extended its sale to hide him

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Speaker 1: during a battle with the demon king Ravna. The peacock

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Speaker 1: is an enemy of snakes and represents victory over evil tendencies.

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Speaker 1: And this is apparently based on real life because peacocks

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Speaker 1: in their natural habitat do eat small snakes. And of

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Speaker 1: course this reminds me a little bit of you know,

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Speaker 1: talking of what we've talked about concerning the kokatrice and

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Speaker 1: the basilisk.

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Speaker 3: Oh. I don't think I even mentioned this at the time,

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Speaker 3: but some sources say that the cockatrice the monster can

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Speaker 3: have a couple of enemies. One is the cry of

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Speaker 3: the rooster, so like the rooster's call can sort of

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Speaker 3: invalidate the cockatrice's magic or banish it. And then another

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Speaker 3: idea is that the weasel is the enemy of the

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Speaker 3: cockatrice and can defeat it.

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Speaker 1: The peacock is also held to be the vehicle of

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Speaker 1: the war god Kartikia. The crown of Lord Krishna often

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Speaker 1: features peacock feathers. It's apparently just generally a common symbol

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Speaker 1: of beauty throughout Hindu literature, often associated with joy as

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Speaker 1: well as Rain and Krishna. The writer here not the

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Speaker 1: mythological figure, also mentions that some traditions hold that Sita,

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Speaker 1: the love of Rama, was born from the egg of

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Speaker 1: a pea hen. He also mentions that the peacock may

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Speaker 1: represent compassion and watchfulness in Buddhist traditions, and that in

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Speaker 1: Tibetan Buddhism there are also connotations of immortality which will

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Speaker 1: come back to in a second and a symbol for

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Speaker 1: the universal antidote against the poisonous human emotional states. And

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Speaker 1: in Jainism, the peacock feather may ward away evil and

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Speaker 1: then finally, he also mentions in passing that peacocks are

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Speaker 1: apparently mentioned in the Bible is an import of King Solomon.

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Speaker 1: Now during the medieval period in Europe, they were favorite

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Speaker 1: inclusions in menageries and gardens, becoming important in European heraldry,

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Speaker 1: textiles and art, and of course, they also came up

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Speaker 1: as a prized food item. And yet even as this

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Speaker 1: exotic bird is selected for the dinner table, it retains

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Speaker 1: its novel qualities as well as some of its supernatural

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Speaker 1: and symbolic qualities. So you know, I guess, you know,

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Speaker 1: on the medieval European table and you know, into Renaissance times,

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Speaker 1: it's like you can have it both ways, that the

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Speaker 1: animal can be I guess, both symbolic and delicious.

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Speaker 3: So like if unicorns actually existed, you could take on

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Speaker 3: some of the symbolic I don't know, purity and holiness

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Speaker 3: of the unicorn by eating its flesh.

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Speaker 1: Maybe oh yeah, they would totally have spit roasted a unicorn. Now,

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Speaker 1: some select groups in India also historically ate the bird,

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Speaker 1: and we also have accounts that the ancient Romans enjoyed

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Speaker 1: peacock meat as well as the ostrich and various other

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Speaker 1: items in a Roman work titled on the subject of cooking,

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Speaker 1: a work that is attributed to a Roman by the

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Speaker 1: name of Apicius, though apparently there are two different Apiciuses

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Speaker 1: in the historical record that historians think this might have been.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure if we know with any degree

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Speaker 1: of accuracy, like who this was that wrote this? But

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Speaker 1: in on the subject of cooking. This is in translation,

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Speaker 1: of course, is stated entrees of peacock occupied the first rink,

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Speaker 1: provided they be dressed in such manner that the hard

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Speaker 1: and tough parts be tender. The second place in the

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Speaker 1: estimation of gourmets have dishes made of rabbit, third spiny lobster,

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Speaker 1: fourth comes chicken, and fifth young pig.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So according to this source, peacock is right at the

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Speaker 1: top if you cook it right. And you know modern

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Speaker 1: American mainstays of chicken and pig, like, that's just down

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Speaker 1: the list. That's after your rabbit and your spiny lobster.

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Speaker 3: Beef doesn't even make the list. No love for fish,

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Speaker 3: Where's my goat?

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Speaker 1: Whoever Apicius was? The delicacies based on peacock tongues are

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Speaker 1: also attributed to him. But I wonder if even the

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Speaker 1: Romans ever considered such a tudor dish as listed by

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Speaker 1: Breverton in his book as redressed peacocks which seem alive,

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Speaker 1: and how to make them breathe fire through their mouth.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the listings from Tutor England that

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Speaker 1: he goes over it. So Basically this is this is

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Speaker 1: very similar to the gilded peacock. I'm assuming here it

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Speaker 1: amounts though to a complex First of all, you know,

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Speaker 1: butchering and then you know, spit roasting of said bird.

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Speaker 1: But then it's stuffed and mounted, and its skin and

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Speaker 1: its feathers are added back. And then on top of

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Speaker 1: everything else, they use some sort of of a fire

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Speaker 1: effect created via camphor, a waxy colorlesstance that burns at

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Speaker 1: a low temperature, So like some sort of little pyrotechnic

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Speaker 1: device inside the peacock's mouth so that as you serve

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Speaker 1: it, it is breathing fire.

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Speaker 3: Were peacock's thought to breathe fire in life? Or I

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Speaker 3: wonder what this is connecting to.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's just it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: lighting the candles on a birthday cake, right, or you know,

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Speaker 1: a flaming drink. You know, a little fire makes it

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Speaker 1: even more exciting. And so yeah, if you're going to

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Speaker 1: have an animal with its head on it, why not

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Speaker 1: have that head spitting fire?

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, blow out the peacock, honey. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now this leads us to another aspect that we kind

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Speaker 1: of touched on very briefly. We mentioned how the Romans said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: peacock flesh is the best, but you got to dress

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Speaker 1: it right, you got to cook it right so that

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Speaker 1: you don't have to deal with the heart and the

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Speaker 1: tough parts. You can make those parts tender. There does

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Speaker 1: seem to be a lot of discussion about just how

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Speaker 1: tough peacock meat can be. And this gets into this

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Speaker 1: idea that you also see sort of reverberating through even

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Speaker 1: ancient literature, the idea that the peacock's flesh did not rot,

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Speaker 1: that it was incorruptible.

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Speaker 3: This is getting more and more unicorn by the moment.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 1: Really these are attributes you would expect to be applied

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Speaker 1: to the unicorn or something like that, and not a peacock,

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Speaker 1: which you know, it's like I grew up knowing people

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Speaker 1: who had peacocks wandering around their homes like it didn't

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Speaker 1: seem weird at all. It didn't seem like a magical creature,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's impressive, but not magical.

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Speaker 3: To be clear, this is not true. Peacocks rot when

402
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Speaker 3: they die.

403
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: Right, right, But this idea seems to go back aways.

404
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: I've seen it attributed to Aristotle, but I don't believe

405
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Speaker 1: he ever directly addressed it, though I think there were

406
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Speaker 1: some later authors who then kind of like tried to

407
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: tried to claim that, oh, well, he was aware of

408
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Speaker 1: this belief, and perhaps he's somehow alluding to it. Writers

409
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: such as Plenty and Plutarch would have they also discussed

410
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: the bird's links to traditions of immortality.

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Speaker 3: But where we really.

412
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Speaker 1: Find a firm example of this being discussed is in

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Speaker 1: the fifth century CE book on the City of God

414
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: against the Pagans, or the City of God, by Augustine

415
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Speaker 1: of Hippo. And I'm going to read for you hear

416
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: from the Marcus Dods translation, for who but God, the

417
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Speaker 1: creator of all things, has given to the flesh of

418
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Speaker 1: the peacock its antiseptic property. This property, when I first

419
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: heard of it, seemed to me incredible. But it happened

420
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Speaker 1: at Carthage that a bird of this kind was cooked

421
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Speaker 1: and served up to me, and taking a suitable slice

422
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Speaker 1: of flesh from its breast, I ordered it to be kept.

423
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Speaker 1: And when it had been kept as many days as

424
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Speaker 1: make any other flesh stinking, it was produced and set

425
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: before me and emitted no offensive smell. And after it

426
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 1: had been laid by for thirty days and more it

427
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: was still in the same state, and a year after

428
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: the same still except that it was a little more

429
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: shriveled and drier. Who gave to chaff such power to

430
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: freeze that it preserves snow buried under it, and such

431
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: power to warm that it ripens green fruit.

432
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 3: I don't think I understood that last sentence.

433
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: Well, he's tying it all into the power of God,

434
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: the creator, the chaff and the and the ripening of

435
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: green fruit. That's not directly involved with the peacock's flesh.

436
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 3: But it's some context of theological observation. Wow.

437
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: Right, And I have to say this may be the

438
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: single most impressive leftovers inspired theological argument or example of

439
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: all time, just hands down. I can't imagine that there's

440
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: a better one out there where like Augustine's Like, yeah,

441
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: I brought some food home from dinner and it did rot,

442
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: and a year later it's still good. What can I say?

443
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: Glory to the creator.

444
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: Imagine if you saw that video on when this was

445
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 3: of like the McDonald's burger, the wooden't rot that.

446
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean similar thing, right, Glory be to God.

447
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: But anyway, the peacock in large part due to this discussion,

448
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: but also you know, trailing off of other cultural and

449
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: religious connections. It becomes a symbol of not mere not

450
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: mere pride as you might expect from watching a peacock

451
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: stroll about, but of Christian eschatology, informed as well by

452
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 1: medieval ideas concerning their molting and the and also you know,

453
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: very real observations that they eat small snakes, and therefore

454
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: well maybe they're you know, they're killing and eating venomous serpents.

455
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: And so the peacock becomes a symbol of the resurrection

456
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: in early Christian art, you see it in early catacombs

457
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: and so forth.

458
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: And thus we shall dine upon it.

459
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, it's so interesting that you know,

460
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: a bird like this, you know, you know, it's very spectacular,

461
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: and it can take on all these additional meanings and

462
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: and so forth. But then also, you know, you come

463
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: down to it, it's like, let's put it on the

464
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: dinner table, let's make it look amazing, let's eat it.

465
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: I've never eaten peacock, but I would love to hear

466
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: from anyone out there who has, who can testify to

467
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: the corruptibility of its flash. But also just how does

468
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: it taste if prepared properly? What are your tips for

469
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: cooking peacock?

470
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's if it tends to be tougher than

471
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 3: your normal poultry like chicken or whatever. I would imagine

472
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 3: it's one of those things they do, like, you know,

473
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 3: a long cooking time on like maybe some kind of uh,

474
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 3: you know, peacock equivalent of cocoa van Yeah. Yeah.

475
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know where you go to get peacock

476
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: meat officially, because I mean it's not like you can't

477
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: go to like what a fud Rucker is in the

478
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and get a peacock burger like you could

479
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: get like an Ostrich burger apparently, but at any rate.

480
00:27:53,280 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: I bet they got it at Walmart. All right, Well,

481
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: I wanted to come back to something I think we

482
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: alluded to a little bit in terms of extravagant meals

483
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 3: and performing meats. As you mentioned earlier, Rob, Yes, this

484
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: is the subject of ingastration, which is the culinary term

485
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: for stuffing one animal inside another. At this point, most

486
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 3: of you out there listening have probably heard of the

487
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 3: famous or infamous urducin, a three bird roast made of

488
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: a duck, a chicken, and a turkey, and I've seen

489
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: dispute about what order they are stuffed in. Now I

490
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: was reading that it's most often a duck stuffed inside

491
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: the body cavity of a chicken stuffed inside the body

492
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: cavity of a turkey. But sometimes it sounds like the

493
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 3: duck and chicken rolls are reversed and may just have

494
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: to do with how large each one you've got is.

495
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: But in most descriptions these birds are they're not stuffed

496
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: in whole with the bones at all. The bird carcasses

497
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: are fully deboned beforehand, so you take all the bones

498
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 3: out and just have the meat in the skin, and

499
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 3: then there's usually also some form of stuffing to pad

500
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 3: out the spaces in between.

501
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: I had to be reminded of this, but apparently my

502
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: brother in law made one of these years and years ago,

503
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: and the main surviving detail of it is that he

504
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: had to get up super early in the morning because

505
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: he did have to remove the bones from everything.

506
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: Deboning a whole poultry carcass is I have actually done

507
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 3: it before. It's a lot of work. Yeah, I'm sure

508
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: if you're an experienced butcher, it's you know, it's pretty easy.

509
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: But to my amateur hands. It was a task, I bet.

510
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: Though I have never made a turducan. This was just

511
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: a chicken.

512
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I apparently ate of this tur duncan, but

513
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: this was a long time ago, and I have no

514
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: memories of what it might have tasted like.

515
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: So the tra ducan is something that I suspect is

516
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: referenced for comedy value at least a thousand times as

517
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: often as it is actually eaten. Not only because for

518
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: you know, many people for whom it is not a

519
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: regular part of their dining find in gastration of funny concept. Also,

520
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: I suspect because the word turducan contains the word turd.

521
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: That's true, It's just a funny sounding word.

522
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 3: Yes. Famously, the American football commentator John Madden talked about

523
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: the idea of a turduckan on some NFL event broadcasts

524
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: around Thanksgiving across the years. You know, I'm not a

525
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: football fan, so I knew nothing about this. I only

526
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: came across this because I was reading about it. But

527
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: I looked up some of these videos and it is

528
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 3: quite fun. He's Madden is talking about the true ducan

529
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: with an adorable combination of amusement and amazement. It's just like,

530
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: get a loo to this. I'm about to knock your

531
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: socks off. It's a chicken inside a turkey. And I

532
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: found this clip from a It's like some pre show

533
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: chatter for the Eagles versus the forty nine Ers game

534
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: on the Monday before Thanksgiving November two thousand and two,

535
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: and Robbie, I shared this video with you so hopefully

536
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: I can get your reaction to it. But this video

537
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 3: is one of the most like Year two thousand and

538
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: two things I've ever seen. So the announcer comes on

539
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 3: and they're like Monday night football pre Thanksgiving brought to

540
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 3: you by Budweiser, Brood Fresh in America, Touchstone Pictures, the

541
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: Hot Chit coming soon to theaters everywhere, and then there's

542
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: also an there's an ad for Radio Shack and then

543
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: an ad for Chrystler, and the tagline for Chrysler at

544
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: the time was love Equals Drive. Wow.

545
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I watched this video and yes, this was impressive.

546
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: I also am not a football fan. I know of

547
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: Madden from his many video games, but yeah, he gets

548
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: into it.

549
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: Literally, he made so many video games.

550
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, prolific of time for that. Yeah.

551
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: Oh by the way, just important correction to what I

552
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: just said. JJ just chimed in because he watched the

553
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 3: video also to let us know that it was not

554
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 3: love equals drive. It was drive equals love. Though I

555
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: think by some principle of mathematics that works out to

556
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: the same thing.

557
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: I think, so right right, sure, it's got it.

558
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: I don't know, mathematicians let us know. But also so

559
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: the funny thing about this video is that Madden is

560
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: extolling the virtues of the tru ducan, Like he explains

561
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: what it is. He's like, yeah, it's you know, you

562
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 3: put this bird inside this bird and it's so great.

563
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 3: But then he also demonstrates how a turducan is structured

564
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: by he like brings the camera over to this prepared

565
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: roasted turducan and then just rips it apart with his

566
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 3: hands to show all the layers.

567
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, somebody spent all day on that.

568
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. So who actually invented the turducan and win is

569
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: a matter of some dispute. The American Cajun and Creole

570
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: chef Paul Prudam at one point claimed he invented turducan

571
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: at a lodge in Wyoming at some point This probably

572
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 3: would have been in the nineteen sixties or maybe the

573
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: early seventies, though the first time he published his recipe

574
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: was in a cookbook in the eighties. And then a

575
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: couple of other Louisiana based chefs named Junior and Sammy

576
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: Herbert brothers who ran a butcher shop together in Louisiana.

577
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: They claimed they were the first to create it. So it's,

578
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: as far as I can tell, still in dispute when

579
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: the first authentic turducan was conceived. But part of the

580
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: problem with assigning credit for the invention of the turducan

581
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 3: is how close does a recipe have to be to count?

582
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 3: Because if you get a little looser in your criteria

583
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: and you just start looking for examples of birds stuffed

584
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: inside birds and cooked, examples start to go way back

585
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: hundreds or thousands of years into history. It's just the

586
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: question of who specifically did this combination in this order.

587
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: Well, Plus it also comes down to the question are

588
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: you talking about doubles are you talking about triples?

589
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: That's right, So I mentioned the idea of stunt food earlier.

590
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: You know, the cock and trice clearly seems to me

591
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: to be a kind of stunt food. But stuffing meats

592
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: inside meats, stuffing whole animal carcasses inside other animal carcasses

593
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: and then cooking them. That seems to me to be

594
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 3: like the quintessential stunt food. Like whatever actual unique pleasures

595
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 3: lie in the eating of three different kinds of poultry

596
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: meat all layered together and then cooked as opposed to

597
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 3: just you know, served on their own separately, I think

598
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: it's hard to deny that the primary appeal of this

599
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: kind of thing is conceptual novelty. The novelty, the extravagance,

600
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: the expense, and the difficulty imagined in the preparation. It's

601
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 3: the idea that, like, you didn't have to do this,

602
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 3: but you did it anyway. And you know, that's an

603
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 3: interesting thing to think about in food preparation because you

604
00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 3: could represent that appeal in more sympathetic and less sympathetic way.

605
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 3: So in our cultural context, a more sympathetic view would

606
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 3: be that it's like an expression of creativity by a cook,

607
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: a desire for a challenge, a desire to delight diners

608
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: and your guests by giving them something new, like you

609
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 3: may have had poultry before, but not like this. And

610
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 3: then a less sympathetic view in our cultural context is

611
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 3: that it's about like showing off. You're showing off your

612
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: skill if you yourself or the cook, or maybe if

613
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 3: you're hiring the cook or buying this thing. It's about

614
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: showing off your power and wealth. So I want to

615
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: keep that in mind while we turn to one of

616
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 3: the most interesting antique accounts of in gastration that I

617
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: came across. And this is a story that was in

618
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 3: a book I found about the evolution of the human

619
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 3: diet by a University of Edinburgh biologist to name Jonathan Silvertown.

620
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 3: So the book is called Dinner with Darwin, Food, Drink

621
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: and Evolution, published by the University of Chicago Press in

622
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 3: twin and so Silvertown tells the story of this particular

623
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: in gastration project as follows. So the year is sixty

624
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 3: three BCE. This would have been during the Roman Republican period.

625
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 3: And in sixty three BCE there was a banquet held

626
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 3: in honor of the Roman statesman Cicero, who is still

627
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: known today for being a great orator and rhetorician, you know,

628
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: great giver of speeches. But he wasn't just a you know,

629
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 3: it wasn't just style points. For Cicero He was also

630
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 3: a very important power player in Roman politics at the time.

631
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: The host of this banquet for Cicero was one of

632
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: the richest citizens of Rome, a consul named Servilius Rullus.

633
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 3: And allegedly, you know that it starts off with some

634
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 3: appetizers early courses of the feast that went over extremely well.

635
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 3: The guests were very happy and in fact they burst

636
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: into applause after the appetizer courses. But the real centerpiece

637
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: of the feast would be the porcus troyanis or what

638
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: French authors would later the bore a la troyenne the

639
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 3: Trojan pig. Now why would it be called that? Your

640
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 3: mind might already be jumping to the answer, But if

641
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 3: you stick with me for a second, the description goes

642
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: that this dish is brought out on a giant silver

643
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 3: plate that takes four slaves to carry. The plate is.

644
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: The plate is huge, and on it there is a

645
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: roasted bore with baskets of dates hanging from its tusks,

646
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 3: which are still attached. And then it's surrounded by delicate

647
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 3: little pastries made to look like a brood of little piglets.

648
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: WHOA, it's already getting outrageous and we have all gotten

649
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: inside the pig.

650
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: You haven't even gone in yet. Yeah. Then they cut

651
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: open the roast bore to reveal that inside it there

652
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: is a second roast bore, and then inside the second

653
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: roast bore a third, and so on and so on,

654
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 3: giving way to smaller and smaller animals until the final core.

655
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: You reach the core, you know, the center of the

656
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: death star. What's down there? It's a tiny, little cooked bird.

657
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

658
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 3: Now I enjoy cooking a challenging dish. But also this

659
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 3: is true for a lot of the dishes we've talked

660
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 3: about today, But for some reason, in this particular example,

661
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: I was just filled with horror imagining this dish made

662
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 3: by people who were not aware of germ theory and

663
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 3: did not have like time temperature charts for pasteurization. I'm

664
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: just feeling like that bird in the middle was not

665
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 3: cooked properly. Yeah, or if it was, everything else was

666
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: dry as heck. But anyway, so this is how you

667
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: get the name Trojan pig. As one Roman author tells us,

668
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: it was stuffed with smaller animals in the same way

669
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: that the Trojan horse of the Iliad was filled with

670
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: armed soldiers and I also like the implication that it

671
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 3: will launch a sneak attack on your body from the inside.

672
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, it sounds like it just might.

673
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 3: By the way, so this is the way that Silvertown

674
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: tells the story in the book, but elsewhere I've seen

675
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 3: alternate accounts. Apparently there are multiple ancient texts that mention

676
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: versions of this dish, and alternate accounts of the Trojan

677
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 3: pig describe it as a roast bore stuffed with cased sausages,

678
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 3: which were said when you cut open the bore to

679
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 3: spill out of the hog like intestines delicious.

680
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: Okay, maybe it's more amusing if you're like closer to

681
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: your butchery culture.

682
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, possibly so. In this book, the author

683
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: frames this within a discussion about the shifting pressures dictating

684
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: how we prepare food when our relationship to food resources changes.

685
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: You know, of course, with wild animals and for most humans,

686
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 3: for most of the history of our species, the primary

687
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: concern with food has just been making sure you have

688
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 3: enough access to the nutrients you need to survive. But

689
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: once humans get into a situation where there is what

690
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 3: feels like a dependable surplus of food, our attitude out

691
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: what food is for changes it becomes less about meeting

692
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: the metabolic energy needs of the body, and food can

693
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 3: be used for other things to achieve other important goals,

694
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 3: such as trying to boost social status. And I think

695
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: there's no doubt at all that in most cultures throughout

696
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 3: history there has been a social status benefit to being

697
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 3: a good host. That's like a I don't know if

698
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 3: I can say it's a cultural universal, but it's got

699
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 3: to be close to universal. Like being a good host

700
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 3: is widely recognized as a thing that makes you a

701
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 3: socially respectable person. And one of the ways you can

702
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 3: approach trying to gain a reputation as a good host

703
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 3: is by serving elaborate and impressive and delightful meals, not

704
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 3: only meeting your guest's energy needs, but beyond that giving

705
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 3: them goostatory pleasure, and then beyond that giving them novelty

706
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: in food, and then beyond that giving them excess just

707
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 3: for excess's sake, just to show them that you can

708
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: and you're willing to. So there's an interesting relationship here

709
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 3: that Silvertown points out as sort of a difference between

710
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 3: satisfying hunger and satisfying the need for status because hunger

711
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: is fundamentally hunger is both limited by some kind of

712
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: physical constraints on the body, but it's also insatiable in

713
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: the long term. So you can eat a meal, but

714
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 3: you can only eat so much until you're full. Even

715
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 3: if you've got a big appetite, you know there's going

716
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 3: to be a limit. And then also on the other end, eventually,

717
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 3: no matter how much you eat, your satiation will trend

718
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: down towards zero over time. So at some point, even

719
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: if you had a really big meal, you're going to

720
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 3: need to eat again. You meet the need, and then

721
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 3: overtime the need recurs. Pressure for social status, on the

722
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 3: other hand, can be subject to a positive feedback loop.

723
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: Silvertown Rights quote. My three bird roast raises my status

724
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: among my dinner guests, who then feel the need to reciprocate.

725
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: When everybody serving three bird roasts, I have become like

726
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: everyone else. So I go one better and show off

727
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: with a four bird roast. Four bird roasts become the

728
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: new norm, and so I have to go one better.

729
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: And you know, I was thinking about this and thinking

730
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 3: that they are actually different and more familiar ways This

731
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: can be acted out and socially understood. So we are

732
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: not all like Roman consuls or tutor British aristocrats jockeying

733
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 3: for political power. But the desire for status can manifest

734
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 3: to us in ways that seem more benign in our

735
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: cultural environment. So here's an example I'm thinking of. You

736
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 3: want to host a family Thanksgiving maybe, and you want

737
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 3: to make sure that the spread is really nice, so

738
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: that the people in your family and your friend group

739
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: who are attending will like you and will have a

740
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: good time, and will enjoy coming to your house at

741
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: the holidays and will want to spend time with you.

742
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: That is perfectly reasonable thing to want, and it feels

743
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 3: a lot less crass and cutthroat than the historical examples

744
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 3: you know of these, like Roman politicians. But I think

745
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: it's fair to say that this is still a way

746
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: of using food to boost our social status.

747
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: I think I think that's a good point. I mean,

748
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: it's like we are social animals, like we cannot help

749
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: but engage in those currents, whether it is about the

750
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: grander game of you know, thrones in politics, or if

751
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: it is about a much simpler and maybe more wholesome

752
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: game of just appealing to friends in love.

753
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 3: With right wanting to be liked and accepted by your

754
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 3: social circle, by your friends and family. Now to cite

755
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: a I don't want to judge too much, but a

756
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: potentially fine or potentially less wholesome feeling example from today.

757
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 3: Another variation is not actually physically hosting guests in person,

758
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 3: but like posting your impressive food creations on social media.

759
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 3: In that format, you don't actually have to go to

760
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: the trouble of hosting people, but you can still presumably

761
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 3: impress others and gain social status by digitally showing off

762
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 3: your turducan or whatever other impressive food creation on the gram.

763
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it is one of those things that

764
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 1: I guess is kind of like doubly impressive, because not

765
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: only does it mean you can cook said dish, but

766
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: you also have the talent and skill to properly photograph

767
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: or film it. Those two skills don't always go hand

768
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: in hand.

769
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: Oh they don't. Yeah, yeah, I know. Food photography is

770
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 3: a real It's a thing people don't appreciate enough because

771
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 3: they consume like foo food photography all the time and

772
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 3: like don't realize how disgusting even a lot of really

773
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 3: good food looks. If you know the light conditions aren't

774
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 3: right and so forth. Yeah, But anyway, coming back to

775
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 3: the argument from this book, According to this author Silvertown,

776
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: this is why in a food surplus environment, where our

777
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 3: investments in food become more about promoting social status than

778
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 3: about simply satisfying the body's energy needs, there can be

779
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 3: a tendency to always try to go one better, to

780
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 3: keep one upping the social expectations, because the need for

781
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 3: status can have this this zero point adjusted to whatever

782
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: your cultural baseline is, which might feel to you like

783
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: it involves cramming seven chickens inside nine pigs for Thanksgiving

784
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 3: or whatever. But like you were saying, rob, it cuts

785
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 3: to a core biological reality about humans, which is that

786
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: we are not sharks. You know, we are a deeply

787
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 3: social species, and social reputation is nearly as important to

788
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 3: us as food. It's like barely under food in terms

789
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: of needs. It's core to our well being. And so

790
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: the desire to have a good reputation, to be liked

791
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 3: by friends and family, and to have you know, to

792
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: have positive social status, that that is something that it

793
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: cuts really deep to the human experience. It's a strong

794
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: need we have, and if you get in a cultural

795
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 3: situation where you feel like in order to meet those needs,

796
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 3: to meet that pressure, sure for for reputation and to

797
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: be liked and thought of as a good host, and

798
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 3: all that that you need to do increasingly impressive and

799
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 3: possibly even strange creations of food.

800
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: Uh.

801
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 3: That's you know, it can seem perfectly logical. It's just like,

802
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 3: this is what I've got to do.

803
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's I mean, this is the reason

804
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: why we have, you know, religious and mythological tales in

805
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: which it is it is stressed that you were you

806
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: were always good as a host because the people you

807
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: are entertaining they may seem like nobody, but they could

808
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: be gods in disguise, you know. Like that's how that's

809
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: how essential hosting is, uh to the human experience.

810
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

811
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: Now I want to sort of close things out in

812
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: maybe a less cerebral area. I want to talk very

813
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: briefly about tofurky because tofurky is also, I mean, I think, objectively,

814
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: a funny word. It makes me laugh anytime I see

815
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 1: a package of tofurkey at the store, and that alone

816
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: makes me want to buy it.

817
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 3: Can I do a ranking of words? Yeah, I'm gonna

818
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 3: say the least funny word is chicken. Turkey is a

819
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: funnier word than chicken. Tofurkey is a funnier word than turkey,

820
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 3: and turduck in is a funnier word than tofurkey.

821
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that ranking is solid, but if you're

822
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: not familiar with tofurke, it is a holiday meat substitute,

823
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: really a feast meat substitute in a limited way. It's

824
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: a blend of wheat, protein and tofu. According to the

825
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: website of the official Tofurky product, like the company Anyway,

826
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: began in nineteen eighty when a teacher and naturalist by

827
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: the name of Seth Tibbott made some from scratch Tempe

828
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: to share it with friends in Portland, and then like

829
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: the company takes off and he eventually gives the world

830
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: tofurkey in nineteen ninety five as a vegan holiday roast,

831
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: which I mean, you know, the mid nineties, Like that's

832
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: as you for a lot of people, like that's early

833
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 1: in vegan cooking. You know, that's a time period where

834
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: I feel like it's more likely to be the punchline

835
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: on a late night joke. But I guess that's also

836
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: the beauty of the word tofurky. It is just innately

837
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: funny and is therefore going to wind up the subject

838
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: of late night jokes. But essentially what we're talking about

839
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: here is, yeah, a vegan meat substitute loaf filled with stuffing.

840
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: So you know, it does connect to these various traditions

841
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: of big roasts and stuffed meats, but with this meat

842
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: free twist, I still prefer feet of meat, but still

843
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: I admire the toferki and it makes me think, like,

844
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: what additional twists on these traditions we might see in

845
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: the near future, even either with our already robust imitation

846
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: meat capabilities, which really have come a long way since

847
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: the mid nineties. Some phenomenal meat substitutes out there. I'm

848
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: a big fan of several of them. But then also

849
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: we have the ever potential future of vat grown meat.

850
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 1: I always hear conflicting things about how far that, how

851
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,280
Speaker 1: far off that is in terms of feasibility, but maybe

852
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: not so far off in terms of just pure you

853
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: know meat spectacle. You know, like you could imagine that

854
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: grown whatever being like the extravagant centerpiece, because it's like,

855
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's not at the point yet, you know,

856
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: where it can be rolled out to everyone.

857
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 3: My God though, I mean the creator. Like, if you're

858
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 3: impressed by cramming together some crab legs and a turkey

859
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 3: to look like a face hug, or imagine what could

860
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 3: be done if you can actually like grow the meat

861
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: to a specified mold, you can make all kinds of things,

862
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 3: and that could also be an interesting uh yeah, like

863
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 3: a an extravagant kind of You know, it's probably not

864
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 3: cheap to do that, but if you really want to

865
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 3: impress your guests, it's like here, you're you're going to

866
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 3: eat a I don't know, a delicious unicorn head.

867
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: I mean, what do meats and up tasting like when

868
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: they are still on some level biologically meat, but they're

869
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: divorced from the concept of living animals and are subject

870
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: to human tinkering and engineering, Like you know, what strange

871
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: new tastes and forms are possible? I mean, I mean,

872
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: I guess we're pointing out that to certainly, to a

873
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: large extent, humans have already manipulated the taste and form

874
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: of various meats in their domesticated meat animals, but you know,

875
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 1: this would just take it to the next level potentially,

876
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: mm hmm. It depends, I guess to what extent you

877
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: feel like you have to stay in line with the

878
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: traditions and to what extent you can stray away from them.

879
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: But who knows, there could come a time when on

880
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: the same table you could serve both cock and trice

881
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 1: and cock a trice right there next to each other

882
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: on silver bladders.

883
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, hey, folks out there, if you're listening and

884
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 3: you work in the in the lab grown meatfield, right

885
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: in and let us know, like how feasible is this?

886
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 3: Could you grow a cockatrice to eat?

887
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the rest of you out there are pro chefs,

888
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: amateur chefs, et cetera. Right in with your your thoughts

889
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: and experiences with any of the recipes we've discussed in

890
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: this episode, we'd love to hear from you. Send your

891
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: food pictures as well.

892
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 3: We'll have a look up, especially if they look disgusting

893
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 3: because of the lighting.

894
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: We will not judge you on that count. A Right,

895
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: We're gonna go ahead and close out this episode, but

896
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: we'll just remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind

897
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

898
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays and on Fridays. We set aside

899
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film

900
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: on Weird House Cinema.

901
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

902
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

903
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to send

904
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 3: us your interesting holiday creations, to suggest a topic for

905
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,280
Speaker 3: the future, or just to say hi, you can email

906
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 3: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

907
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

908
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, what's the iHeartRadio app,

909
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.