WEBVTT - Allbirds: Making a Material Difference 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:09.720 Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast about purpose washing, the 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.080 gap between what companies say they stand for and what 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.079 they actually do, and what they would need to change 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.880 to practice what they preach. I'm your host, time Ontogue, 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.640 and I've spent over a decade helping companies define what 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.880 they stand for, their purpose and then help them to 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:31.800 use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.680 at a lot of organizations today, they're still a pretty 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.760 wide gap between word. Indeed, that gap has a name. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:44.680 We call it bullshit. But, and this is important, we 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.720 believe that bullshit is a treatable disease. So when the 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.000 BS detector lights up, we're going to explore things that 0:00:51.080 --> 0:01:01.480 a company should do to fix it. This episode is 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.759 our second positive case study, when we do a deep 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.679 dive on a purpose led company that we think is 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:13.120 getting it right. Today, All Birds. We're going to talk 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.679 to All Birds co founder and co c e O 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.399 Joey's Willinger about what it's like to run a purpose 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:23.319 led business and ask him what works, what doesn't, and 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:27.560 how he thinks about the future. Before we get to Joey, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:33.880 let's catch up on the All Birds story. Sneakers have 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.840 come a long way. Since their invention in the eighteen 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.959 hundreds and since the fifties, sneaker companies have touted a 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:46.200 variety of technological innovations. Here fiers with a magic wedge 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.040 that helps you run your fastest and jump your highest 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.200 look the ground rip and tread on red ball jets 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.400 gets you off like a rocket stops you on a dime. 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.920 The exclusive arch guard supports your foot, puts comfort in 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.800 spring in every the rebop pump when I pop up 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.400 my size thirteens get support, protection and a custom fit. 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.720 So Michael, my man, if you want to fly first class, 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:14.880 pomp up an air out today. There are a multibillion 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.960 dollar industry start to jump over the one d billion 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.920 dollar mark in a few years. But one place innovation 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:26.679 has been sorely lacking is in materials. Most sneakers are 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:32.200 full of petroleum based foam and plastics, non biodegradable, with 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.240 a high carbon footprint, so they're pretty hard on the 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:42.360 planet environmentally. The fashion industry enter Tim Brown, native New 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.320 Zealander and former professional soccer player, who had worn more 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.920 than a few sneakers in his lifetime, Tim new sustainability 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.440 was an important issue for the future and for customers, 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.800 and he found a way to move sneaker materials away 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:03.960 from oil. His first innovation, wool. Tim got a grant 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.000 from the New Zealand Wool Trust for his concept and 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:12.240 developed it further during an entrepreneurship course, but the professor 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.720 pulled him aside and told him his sustainable sneaker was 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.560 a terrible idea and suggested he just put it on Kickstarter, 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.720 where he assumed it would tank quickly. Here's Tim in 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.079 that original Kickstarter pitch video. You can't grow up a 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.000 kiwi and I understand how good wool is. It's tough, 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.560 regulates temperature, reduced the smell, wicks away moisture, and importantly, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.920 as a sustainable and bidegredible resource. We need you will 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.160 help to shake out the shoe industry and take New 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.000 Zealand wool and we'll run us to the world. He 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.400 began the campaign hoping to raise thirty dollars, but within 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.240 just five days he'd raised over a hundred and twenty 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:59.440 thousand dollars. But there was a good reason that making 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:04.160 wolves aakers had never been done before. It was really hard. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:09.280 Enter Joey's Willinger, a materials engineer and one of Tim's 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:14.080 early Kickstarter customers. Joey had focused his whole career on 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.360 making environmentally friendly materials, but kept running into people who 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.479 just didn't get it. I had this just recurring nightmare 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.120 of a meeting. Every time I'd get advanced discussions in 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.800 business development with with customers and potential customers, it would 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.800 devolve into this sourcing conversation of can you just do 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.040 what we do now and just do it cheaper? Every 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:35.760 single time, I was like, you guys are missing the 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.480 big picture here, like the consumers do want this. Tim 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.560 and Joey met through their wives who were roommates in college, 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:47.040 and they hadn't even considered a potential partnership until Joey 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.559 invited Tim to visit him in California to talk about 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:55.839 the idea that would soon become All Birds. We spent 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.520 like three days really walking around the hills just north 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.440 of San Francisco talk king about why the world needed 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.400 an issue company. I'd come out of this career in 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.159 sport that you know, I'd unlocked this incredible amount of 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.520 meeting and playing for my country, and I found myself 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.560 in my first real job post business school making shoes, 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.120 and I didn't really know why. And I think the 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.560 best thing about that meeting was it unlocked out why. 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.520 It wasn't just about disrupting the shoe industry or creating 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.520 a comfortable sneaker. It was about creating a direct consumer 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:37.440 brand and business that made sustainability a non negotiable. So 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.880 they got to work engineering a sneaker made of wool 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:48.560 and fundraising. In sixteen, they raised seven point to five 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:53.880 million dollars from investors like Leonardo DiCaprio and Mavron, and 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.480 they used that money to launch their website selling the 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.200 Wool Runner, a sneaker that was soon recognized as the 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:06.760 world's most comfortable shoe by Time magazine. By the next year, 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.400 the company had fifty employees in their San Francisco headquarters, 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.960 forty in its Nashville warehouse, and three fifty contractors in 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.600 a factory in South Korea. And as they grew, they 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:23.080 didn't stop innovating. In March, All Birds launched a sneaker 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.480 made from South African eucalyptus fibers, called the Tree Runner, 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:32.720 the first shoe to receive certification from the Forestry Stewardship Council. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.160 Then All Birds invented a foam derived from sustainably sourced 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.760 sugarcane rather than petroleum based plastic, that they called Sweet 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.760 Phone and now sweet Foam is used in all of 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.919 their shoes and I absolutely love this. They open sourced 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.400 the recipe for sweet Foam to encourage other footwear companies 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.400 to use it too, and instead of being upset when 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.800 All Birds copycats showed up on Amazon, Joey's Willinger wrote 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.000 an open letter to Jeff Bezos challenging him to copy 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:09.440 their materials and their environmental commitment to funny Amazon never responded. 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:17.360 In August of All Birds moved into apparel, starting with 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:22.200 socks made from yet another material innovation, Trino, a mixture 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:26.360 of marino wool and eucalyptus tree materials used in their footwear, 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.600 and they've recently launched a new material made of crab 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:37.600 shells called XO like Exo skeleton. In November, All Birds 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:41.680 went public under the symbol b I r D. The 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:47.240 stock initially surged, valuing the company at four billion dollars. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.640 So how do we make more stories like this one happen? 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.200 I asked All Birds co founder and co CEO Joey's 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.640 Willinger to tell us what he's learned about being a 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.360 leader in environmental manufacturing and running a purpose native company. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:20.720 That conversation after the break, I am very excited to 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:25.400 introduce the co founder and co CEO of All Birds, 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:30.040 Joey's Willinger. Joey, welcome to calling Bullshit. Thank you so 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.720 much for having me. I'm glad i'm here. I'm glad 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.560 to be talking to you. I would love it if 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:36.679 we could just start out and learn a little bit 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:41.439 more about your background. Sure, winding all the way back 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.080 to upbringing, I had two very socially conscious parents and 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.160 not particularly environmentalists, but pushed me in a direction of 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.080 making sure they didn't care what I did. They just 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.800 wanted to instill in me that I had to do 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.000 something that contributed a little bit broader than my family 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.920 or myself for certainly for just money or something like that. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.160 But they did help push in a good direction with 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.959 a high level of curiosity. And I was an engineer, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.720 and that got me really interested in exploring innovation and 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.760 a whole bunch of different opportunities, which not knowing business, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.320 I was like, okay, let's go get a basic education 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.200 out there and did consulting and then I did a 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.719 little investing in early stage companies through a venture capital firm, 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.679 and that that really was the first time I got 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.440 introduced to entrepreneurship in its true form, and I I 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.720 was thrilled with it, and I started to fall in 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.960 love with the idea that you could do so much. 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.240 I had so much dynamism in entrepreneurship, that you could 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.520 create the rules yourself and create this little organism of 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.440 a culture and make an impact on the planet that 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.640 was so significant with a little bit of creativity, uh 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.439 and a great team. Around that same time, I also 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:51.760 realized that the biggest crisis that was facing our species 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.520 of truly existential crisis. That was a very big moment 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.760 for me where I realized I wanted to dedicate my 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.120 professional life to doing as much as I could for 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.440 the environment. That sent me down a path, and I 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.880 think entrepreneurship was so interesting that I started hunting down 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.040 the path. I joined a company called Solos I'm as 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.120 a result of that, which was a biotechnology company where 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:16.680 we engineered micrology to replace petroleum, so basically a carbon 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.840 neutral version of any kind of petroleum derivative, whether it 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.160 was fuel or chemicals or even cosmetics. Ingredients. I ran 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.040 that the chemicals group, so I was replacing petro chemicals, 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.760 and I was I was out there doing tons of 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.679 business development, trying to design molecules that could outcompete petro 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.120 chemical and do it on a zero carbon emission basis, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.360 and everyone was so excited about it. And then they 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.319 just passed me to the sourcing guy at their company, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.160 and that person just asked me to do whatever they 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.959 did then cheaper, and that was very frustrating. That was 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.440 where I realized that politicians were lagging and consumers were 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.280 going to lead the way. I was convinced of it 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.800 that consumers wanted a no compromise offering for whatever the 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.240 product they were buying and consuming, they wanted it to 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.120 be amazing. And if it was shoes, could you imagine, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.240 You're just there's twenty billion pairs of shoes every year 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.240 bought and sold, and they are made with plastic. Almost 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.720 every person you look around the street is wearing a 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.000 pile of plastic. That's all they are. And it's just 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.720 mind blowing to me, the dissonance between what I knew 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:15.960 the consumers wanted and what the brands were making. So 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.000 I thought there was just an opportunity. I didn't know 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.360 it was going to be sneakers. Unfortunately, my my night 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.800 and shining armor was Tim Brown, my co founder, who 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:24.760 swung in with an idea with the wool shoe, and 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:26.880 we really connected on the idea that this could be 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.440 a really big platform and a really big opportunity as 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.400 a business opportunity, but also to lead on environmentalism in 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.280 this space. Yeah, that, let's pivot to all birds. How 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:41.079 do you guys articulate all birds? Purpose? We say, make 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.240 better things in a better way, and I'll unpack it 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.800 a little bit. Making better things we say that first, 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:50.400 and that means that whatever you're using it for. In 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.199 our case, if it's shoes, it needs to be more comfortable, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.840 look better, help you perform better. If you're using them 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.400 for athletics, they're just better and done in a better way. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.760 For us, is about helping to reverse climate change. If 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.319 the planet has a heart, it's it's Climate change is 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.040 the issue that that is most analogous to helping you 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.520 as a human stay alive. It's it's the heart needs 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.840 to beat, and if our climate goes away, that is 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.640 existential problem. So for us, it's all about helping to 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.440 reverse climate change, and so we measure everything deeply against 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.199 that purpose. Yeah, it is the issue of our time. 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.240 How do you guys think about the let's call it 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.720 the dominant system that all birds is trying to improve upon. 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.880 Oh man, it's like a drug. We're competing with the 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:40.439 system of this drug of fast and sheep synthetics. And 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.880 for a hundred years since Rockefeller did a great job 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.480 and found kerosene to light lamps and then turn it 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:51.160 into fuel for Ford's to you know, model ts. Since 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:56.000 that time, chemical engineers, very smart people have been working 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.280 with all of their energy to squeeze out another dollar 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.880 from the barrel oil. And there's a lot of heat 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:06.199 and pressure and chemical engineering expertise that goes into squeezing 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.560 that last value from the barrel of oil to make 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.160 chemicals and cheap synthetics. And what that has resulted in 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:17.760 is an industry that relies exclusively on polyesters, nylons, synthetic 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.200 foams from petroleum, and then cow leather as well, which 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.920 are all horrific for the environment. It's a terrible direction 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.480 in terms of its contribution to global warming and and 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.880 twenty billion pairs each year. There's a lot of feet 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.240 out there. That's how much are consumed every single year. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.360 So this is this is the system that we are 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.800 disrupting against. We are creating a system. We call it 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.720 vertical retailing, but everything is sold directly to the consumer. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.880 We connect that to our innovation model where we unlock 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.480 this amazing customer experience so better products. And we do 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.800 that on the backs of highly evolved and naturally derived 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.559 innovations things from fibers, from nature, green chemistry, you know, 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.400 a whole bunch of different processes that unlock amazing value 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.839 for consumer us without denting the earth. Yeah, it's incredibly 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.719 impressive what you've done with materials, and I do want 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.680 to get deeper into that too. But just to kind 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.360 of level set, what is the carbon footprint of the 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.520 average sneaker, the plastic ones that you guys are trying 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:20.000 to replace. Yeah, so the average sneaker, best we can estimate, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.120 and most most of the legacy companies in our in 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.120 our category don't disclose this information, so best that we 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.440 can calculate this, and we've run our own models on 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.120 what we estimate too as well as seeing the disclosures. 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:36.760 Is about fourteen kilograms of carbon dioxide equivalent emissions, and 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.800 I say that kind of jargon ee sounding word. But 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:41.840 C O two E, which i'll refer to for the 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.360 rest of this is is just carbon or carbon dioxide. 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.520 It's not just carbon dioxide. It's also methane or other 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.800 greenhouse warming gases, and they're multiplied to kind of show 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.520 the greenhouse warming potential of that emission. And we package 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.520 that all into a single metric So it's about fourteen. 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.720 And just to give you what that means and context, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.440 hamburgers about six kilogram of tomatoes about two point two 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.720 pounds of tomatoes in the grocery store. That's about nine emissions. 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.360 So a sneaker is fourteen on average, and the ones 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.600 that we make are typically under ten. Right, I noticed that. 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.400 Hang on, sorry, I just wanted to show you. I 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.360 just got my first pair nice and I did see 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.240 you know your purpose on your box, which was cool. 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.960 You also labeled the carbon footprint right on the shoe, 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.880 which I thought was interesting. We wanted to understand our impact, 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.240 so we had to develop our own tools so that 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.360 we could measure down to the gram of carbon dioxide 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.520 emissions what we were doing across the whole life cycle. 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.400 That means from like the farm to the consumer and 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.800 even through their use phase and end of life of 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.200 that product. So we had to develop a pretty sophisticated model. 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.720 Once we understood the impact, we decided we would be 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.440 carbon neutral. So we went through and created the strategy 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.200 to try to get down to zero carbon emissions ourselves. 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.640 But along the way we had to know what it was. First, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.360 we had to start to reduce it from all our 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.680 internal activities, and then we also had to offset it 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.680 along the way, so we made it carbon neutral. We 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.920 then released the tool publicly and we also started labeling 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.640 our products around the same time, and we decided that 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.680 singular metric is best analogized by calories on the back 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.120 of a food label. It's a way to contextual, as 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.840 in a simple single metric, your impact on whether you're 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.000 contributing and exacerbating the problem on climate change or you're 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.000 helping combat it. So we wanted that accountability on the company, 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:31.680 and we wanted it put it on right on the 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.800 product so that everyone could start to evaluate quality of 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.280 product and price of product and also the environmental and 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.560 climate change impacts. And now now there's a way for 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:42.120 people to do that. We hope a lot of people 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.200 copy us, which is why we we kind of open 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.520 source and release this tool to the industry. That's awesome. 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.120 I love that. And in a way, you know, when 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.800 as I was reading about you and watching some videos, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.920 it really does seem like you're a materials innovation company 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.440 as much as you are a shoe and apparel company. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.440 Like you've developed brand new materials like tree and sweet foam, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.720 great names, by the way, can you talk a little 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.880 bit about those those innovations. That is how we think 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.520 about ourselves actually, Like the reason for being for us 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:17.480 is innovation on naturally derived materials. We think about ourselves 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.480 as a purpose native company, meaning we established this company 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.280 with the idea that we would use it so that 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.720 every shoe we sold and every dollar we made in 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.240 revenue was going to increase our environmental impact in a 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.400 positive way. So that alignment between mission and financial outcome 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.960 was essential for us. And so the only way we 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.080 could get at that is to focus and constrain our 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:46.080 research and development process to naturally derive low carbon intensity materials. 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.000 And so every new innovation that we go and look at, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.520 it's got to do four things. It's got to be 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.760 amazing for the consumer, it's gonna just feel better. That's 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.760 the first and foremost the most important thing. The second 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.000 is that it's got to be a reasonable cost, because 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.520 you know, we have to deliver this at an approachable 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.560 value for customers. We have to have enough of it 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.320 in abundance so that it's durable, sustainable, and we can 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.840 make a lot of shoes out of it. And lastly, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.600 it's got to be very low carbon intensity, and and 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.480 the best way to do that is to take the 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:23.280 best of nature and in a highly renewable fashion and 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.480 package it into a shoe that that does all those 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.600 great things that we try to do. So Tree was 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.359 a wonderful example where we use Forest Stewardship Council certified 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.560 eucalyptus fibers to make the uppers of our shoes. Sweet 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.880 foam is such a special one. We we knew when 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.000 we started the company. We really we wanted to be 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.720 very good and a big hole with the bottom of 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.040 the shoe, the soul and in the entire foot where 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.199 and all of it is made from petroleum. And we 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.280 knew from my background, we knew we had an opportunity, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.240 particularly if we convinced this one company down in Brazil 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.600 to take the waste stream of sugar cane processing and 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.760 convert that through a number of biotechnology and the chemical 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.280 steps that we could actually replace the most ubiquitous foam 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.359 and all of the footwear industry. It's a it's a 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.400 chemical called e V A and and you can take 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.040 that and you can make it from the waste stream 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.720 of sugarcane processing, which actually makes it, in carbon accounting, 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.680 a carbon negative material that actually absorbs more carbon out 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.919 of the atmosphere than it takes to create it, So 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.879 you're a net positive every time you use this component. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.199 And so we we use that, and we then we 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.239 converted into a foam which we call sweet Phone, and 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.960 we open sourced that based material to the whole industry 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.520 because it's so ubiquitous and using such high volumes in 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.479 the sneaker industry that if everybody used it, the planet 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.400 would be wildly better off, and it would also drive 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.040 the cost of that material down, so it would be 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.280 a win win for everybody. And so that kind of 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:53.560 collaborative approach to sustainability is often better than the traditional 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.639 super competitive method of innovation I P. Protecting. So you 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.240 and source these materials, so these materials are available. Yeah, 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.760 with our partner brass Can, we we co developed this 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.640 thing and then we we open source to everybody. And 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.520 some big brands are using and a lot of small 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.480 brands are using, and there's a lot of brands that 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.359 have yet to use it, and shame on them. You 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.439 should use it. Yeah, completely agree. That's that's super cool 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.879 and and obviously wool is also a huge part of 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:27.399 your proposition. So why wool, Well, you know, Tim is 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.760 from New Zealand and there is a lot of sheep 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.920 in New Zealand, a lot of sheep. There's like thirty 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.560 million sheep and a whole bunch of those of marino sheep, 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.359 and so Tim had a indoctrination from that bringing in 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.080 in the value of wool, and marino wool in particular. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.560 It's a miracle fiber. It absorbs moisture and you don't 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.800 feel damp when you're wearing. It regulates your temperature, it 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.080 feels incredibly soft and touch and it's got some like 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:56.800 great strength characteristics. And it's not only is it wonderful 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.520 for all of those attributes making it an incredibly comfortable product, 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.240 but it's also from nature and particularly when you utilize 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.680 regenerative farming practices, which is one of our biggest initiatives 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.639 to push all the farmers we work with in New 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.640 Zealand and beyond to use regenerative farming practices. This too, 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.720 can be a carbon negative material, and so that the 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.440 power of harvesting wool in a regenerative manner and packaging 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.720 it into a product that feels better, performs better is 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.000 that magic sweet spot of where all birds exist and thrives. 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.080 Do you think leading a purpose led business is harder? 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.480 I asked that, because, for instance, you have a lot 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.439 more stakeholders to think about than the CEO of, for instance, 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:45.119 a traditional company who normally just thinks about shareholders. It's 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.760 an interesting question. I've never really thought about that, but 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.040 I kind of think it's easier. As long as you 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:56.800 intelligently designed the business system so that you're truly purpose native, 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.440 where which I define as as the financial and impact 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.760 incentives are exactly aligned, then I find it easier because 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.640 it's a tool that I use so much to make 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.439 sure that the purpose is resonating with our consumers so 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.080 they gravitate to our products more. The purpose resonates with 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:17.679 our employee base, so we get amazing talent. You know, 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.600 the purpose frankly resonates with our investors, like the the 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.680 idea that you can allocate your capital as a capital 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:29.080 allocator against opportunities that both make money and make great 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.199 impact on the world. These are all super aligned. So 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.840 I I find that the paradigm that is often assumed, 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:40.800 which is that these stakeholders are inherently intention is a 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.600 legacy of how business has skewed too far in one 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.360 direction around profit only and forgot that we all live 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:49.359 in a system. And so I find it quite a 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.679 lot easier. It's the tool I leverage the most great answer. 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:57.280 So at some level, proclaiming that All Birds is a 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.440 purpose led business makes the company target. Even if by 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.119 comparison you're a beacon of hope in your industry, do 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:09.520 you ever feel that pressure? Sure, And look, we try 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:13.320 to be very careful to say, uh, and we're pretty 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.320 clear about this that we are not perfect, like, but 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:17.560 there's lots of holes in what we're doing. You know, 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.440 the fact that we are above zero carbon emissions for 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:22.960 the products that we make means that we're not doing 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:25.680 a great job against our mission. Yet, like we need 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.040 to keep running super hard and working every day, which 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.240