1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast about purpose washing, the 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: gap between what companies say they stand for and what 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: they actually do, and what they would need to change 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: to practice what they preach. I'm your host, time Ontogue, 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: and I've spent over a decade helping companies define what 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: they stand for, their purpose and then help them to 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: at a lot of organizations today, they're still a pretty 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: wide gap between word. Indeed, that gap has a name. 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: We call it bullshit. But, and this is important, we 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: believe that bullshit is a treatable disease. So when the 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: BS detector lights up, we're going to explore things that 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: a company should do to fix it. This episode is 14 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: our second positive case study, when we do a deep 15 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: dive on a purpose led company that we think is 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: getting it right. Today, All Birds. We're going to talk 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: to All Birds co founder and co c e O 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: Joey's Willinger about what it's like to run a purpose 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: led business and ask him what works, what doesn't, and 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: how he thinks about the future. Before we get to Joey, 21 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: let's catch up on the All Birds story. Sneakers have 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: come a long way. Since their invention in the eighteen 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: hundreds and since the fifties, sneaker companies have touted a 24 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: variety of technological innovations. Here fiers with a magic wedge 25 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: that helps you run your fastest and jump your highest 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: look the ground rip and tread on red ball jets 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: gets you off like a rocket stops you on a dime. 28 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: The exclusive arch guard supports your foot, puts comfort in 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: spring in every the rebop pump when I pop up 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: my size thirteens get support, protection and a custom fit. 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: So Michael, my man, if you want to fly first class, 32 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: pomp up an air out today. There are a multibillion 33 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: dollar industry start to jump over the one d billion 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: dollar mark in a few years. But one place innovation 35 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: has been sorely lacking is in materials. Most sneakers are 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: full of petroleum based foam and plastics, non biodegradable, with 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: a high carbon footprint, so they're pretty hard on the 38 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: planet environmentally. The fashion industry enter Tim Brown, native New 39 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: Zealander and former professional soccer player, who had worn more 40 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: than a few sneakers in his lifetime, Tim new sustainability 41 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: was an important issue for the future and for customers, 42 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: and he found a way to move sneaker materials away 43 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: from oil. His first innovation, wool. Tim got a grant 44 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: from the New Zealand Wool Trust for his concept and 45 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: developed it further during an entrepreneurship course, but the professor 46 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: pulled him aside and told him his sustainable sneaker was 47 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: a terrible idea and suggested he just put it on Kickstarter, 48 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: where he assumed it would tank quickly. Here's Tim in 49 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: that original Kickstarter pitch video. You can't grow up a 50 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: kiwi and I understand how good wool is. It's tough, 51 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: regulates temperature, reduced the smell, wicks away moisture, and importantly, 52 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: as a sustainable and bidegredible resource. We need you will 53 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: help to shake out the shoe industry and take New 54 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: Zealand wool and we'll run us to the world. He 55 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: began the campaign hoping to raise thirty dollars, but within 56 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: just five days he'd raised over a hundred and twenty 57 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. But there was a good reason that making 58 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: wolves aakers had never been done before. It was really hard. 59 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: Enter Joey's Willinger, a materials engineer and one of Tim's 60 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: early Kickstarter customers. Joey had focused his whole career on 61 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: making environmentally friendly materials, but kept running into people who 62 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: just didn't get it. I had this just recurring nightmare 63 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: of a meeting. Every time I'd get advanced discussions in 64 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: business development with with customers and potential customers, it would 65 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: devolve into this sourcing conversation of can you just do 66 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: what we do now and just do it cheaper? Every 67 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: single time, I was like, you guys are missing the 68 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: big picture here, like the consumers do want this. Tim 69 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: and Joey met through their wives who were roommates in college, 70 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: and they hadn't even considered a potential partnership until Joey 71 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 1: invited Tim to visit him in California to talk about 72 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: the idea that would soon become All Birds. We spent 73 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: like three days really walking around the hills just north 74 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: of San Francisco talk king about why the world needed 75 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: an issue company. I'd come out of this career in 76 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: sport that you know, I'd unlocked this incredible amount of 77 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: meeting and playing for my country, and I found myself 78 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: in my first real job post business school making shoes, 79 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: and I didn't really know why. And I think the 80 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: best thing about that meeting was it unlocked out why. 81 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't just about disrupting the shoe industry or creating 82 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: a comfortable sneaker. It was about creating a direct consumer 83 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: brand and business that made sustainability a non negotiable. So 84 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: they got to work engineering a sneaker made of wool 85 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: and fundraising. In sixteen, they raised seven point to five 86 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: million dollars from investors like Leonardo DiCaprio and Mavron, and 87 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: they used that money to launch their website selling the 88 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: Wool Runner, a sneaker that was soon recognized as the 89 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: world's most comfortable shoe by Time magazine. By the next year, 90 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: the company had fifty employees in their San Francisco headquarters, 91 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: forty in its Nashville warehouse, and three fifty contractors in 92 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: a factory in South Korea. And as they grew, they 93 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: didn't stop innovating. In March, All Birds launched a sneaker 94 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: made from South African eucalyptus fibers, called the Tree Runner, 95 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: the first shoe to receive certification from the Forestry Stewardship Council. 96 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: Then All Birds invented a foam derived from sustainably sourced 97 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: sugarcane rather than petroleum based plastic, that they called Sweet 98 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: Phone and now sweet Foam is used in all of 99 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: their shoes and I absolutely love this. They open sourced 100 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: the recipe for sweet Foam to encourage other footwear companies 101 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: to use it too, and instead of being upset when 102 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: All Birds copycats showed up on Amazon, Joey's Willinger wrote 103 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: an open letter to Jeff Bezos challenging him to copy 104 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: their materials and their environmental commitment to funny Amazon never responded. 105 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: In August of All Birds moved into apparel, starting with 106 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: socks made from yet another material innovation, Trino, a mixture 107 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: of marino wool and eucalyptus tree materials used in their footwear, 108 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: and they've recently launched a new material made of crab 109 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: shells called XO like Exo skeleton. In November, All Birds 110 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: went public under the symbol b I r D. The 111 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: stock initially surged, valuing the company at four billion dollars. 112 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: So how do we make more stories like this one happen? 113 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: I asked All Birds co founder and co CEO Joey's 114 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: Willinger to tell us what he's learned about being a 115 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: leader in environmental manufacturing and running a purpose native company. 116 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: That conversation after the break, I am very excited to 117 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: introduce the co founder and co CEO of All Birds, 118 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: Joey's Willinger. Joey, welcome to calling Bullshit. Thank you so 119 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: much for having me. I'm glad i'm here. I'm glad 120 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: to be talking to you. I would love it if 121 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: we could just start out and learn a little bit 122 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: more about your background. Sure, winding all the way back 123 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: to upbringing, I had two very socially conscious parents and 124 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: not particularly environmentalists, but pushed me in a direction of 125 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: making sure they didn't care what I did. They just 126 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: wanted to instill in me that I had to do 127 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: something that contributed a little bit broader than my family 128 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: or myself for certainly for just money or something like that. 129 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: But they did help push in a good direction with 130 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: a high level of curiosity. And I was an engineer, 131 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: and that got me really interested in exploring innovation and 132 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different opportunities, which not knowing business, 133 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, let's go get a basic education 134 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: out there and did consulting and then I did a 135 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: little investing in early stage companies through a venture capital firm, 136 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: and that that really was the first time I got 137 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: introduced to entrepreneurship in its true form, and I I 138 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: was thrilled with it, and I started to fall in 139 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: love with the idea that you could do so much. 140 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: I had so much dynamism in entrepreneurship, that you could 141 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: create the rules yourself and create this little organism of 142 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: a culture and make an impact on the planet that 143 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: was so significant with a little bit of creativity, uh 144 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: and a great team. Around that same time, I also 145 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: realized that the biggest crisis that was facing our species 146 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: of truly existential crisis. That was a very big moment 147 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: for me where I realized I wanted to dedicate my 148 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: professional life to doing as much as I could for 149 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: the environment. That sent me down a path, and I 150 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: think entrepreneurship was so interesting that I started hunting down 151 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: the path. I joined a company called Solos I'm as 152 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: a result of that, which was a biotechnology company where 153 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: we engineered micrology to replace petroleum, so basically a carbon 154 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: neutral version of any kind of petroleum derivative, whether it 155 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: was fuel or chemicals or even cosmetics. Ingredients. I ran 156 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: that the chemicals group, so I was replacing petro chemicals, 157 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: and I was I was out there doing tons of 158 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: business development, trying to design molecules that could outcompete petro 159 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: chemical and do it on a zero carbon emission basis, 160 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: and everyone was so excited about it. And then they 161 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: just passed me to the sourcing guy at their company, 162 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: and that person just asked me to do whatever they 163 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: did then cheaper, and that was very frustrating. That was 164 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: where I realized that politicians were lagging and consumers were 165 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: going to lead the way. I was convinced of it 166 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: that consumers wanted a no compromise offering for whatever the 167 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: product they were buying and consuming, they wanted it to 168 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: be amazing. And if it was shoes, could you imagine, 169 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: You're just there's twenty billion pairs of shoes every year 170 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: bought and sold, and they are made with plastic. Almost 171 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: every person you look around the street is wearing a 172 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: pile of plastic. That's all they are. And it's just 173 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: mind blowing to me, the dissonance between what I knew 174 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: the consumers wanted and what the brands were making. So 175 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: I thought there was just an opportunity. I didn't know 176 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: it was going to be sneakers. Unfortunately, my my night 177 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: and shining armor was Tim Brown, my co founder, who 178 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: swung in with an idea with the wool shoe, and 179 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: we really connected on the idea that this could be 180 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: a really big platform and a really big opportunity as 181 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: a business opportunity, but also to lead on environmentalism in 182 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: this space. Yeah, that, let's pivot to all birds. How 183 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: do you guys articulate all birds? Purpose? We say, make 184 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: better things in a better way, and I'll unpack it 185 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: a little bit. Making better things we say that first, 186 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: and that means that whatever you're using it for. In 187 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: our case, if it's shoes, it needs to be more comfortable, 188 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: look better, help you perform better. If you're using them 189 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: for athletics, they're just better and done in a better way. 190 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: For us, is about helping to reverse climate change. If 191 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: the planet has a heart, it's it's Climate change is 192 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: the issue that that is most analogous to helping you 193 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: as a human stay alive. It's it's the heart needs 194 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: to beat, and if our climate goes away, that is 195 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: existential problem. So for us, it's all about helping to 196 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: reverse climate change, and so we measure everything deeply against 197 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: that purpose. Yeah, it is the issue of our time. 198 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: How do you guys think about the let's call it 199 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: the dominant system that all birds is trying to improve upon. 200 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: Oh man, it's like a drug. We're competing with the 201 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: system of this drug of fast and sheep synthetics. And 202 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: for a hundred years since Rockefeller did a great job 203 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: and found kerosene to light lamps and then turn it 204 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: into fuel for Ford's to you know, model ts. Since 205 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: that time, chemical engineers, very smart people have been working 206 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: with all of their energy to squeeze out another dollar 207 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: from the barrel oil. And there's a lot of heat 208 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: and pressure and chemical engineering expertise that goes into squeezing 209 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: that last value from the barrel of oil to make 210 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: chemicals and cheap synthetics. And what that has resulted in 211 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: is an industry that relies exclusively on polyesters, nylons, synthetic 212 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: foams from petroleum, and then cow leather as well, which 213 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: are all horrific for the environment. It's a terrible direction 214 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: in terms of its contribution to global warming and and 215 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: twenty billion pairs each year. There's a lot of feet 216 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: out there. That's how much are consumed every single year. 217 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: So this is this is the system that we are 218 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: disrupting against. We are creating a system. We call it 219 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: vertical retailing, but everything is sold directly to the consumer. 220 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: We connect that to our innovation model where we unlock 221 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: this amazing customer experience so better products. And we do 222 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: that on the backs of highly evolved and naturally derived 223 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: innovations things from fibers, from nature, green chemistry, you know, 224 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different processes that unlock amazing value 225 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 1: for consumer us without denting the earth. Yeah, it's incredibly 226 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: impressive what you've done with materials, and I do want 227 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: to get deeper into that too. But just to kind 228 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: of level set, what is the carbon footprint of the 229 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: average sneaker, the plastic ones that you guys are trying 230 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: to replace. Yeah, so the average sneaker, best we can estimate, 231 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: and most most of the legacy companies in our in 232 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: our category don't disclose this information, so best that we 233 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: can calculate this, and we've run our own models on 234 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: what we estimate too as well as seeing the disclosures. 235 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: Is about fourteen kilograms of carbon dioxide equivalent emissions, and 236 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: I say that kind of jargon ee sounding word. But 237 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: C O two E, which i'll refer to for the 238 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: rest of this is is just carbon or carbon dioxide. 239 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: It's not just carbon dioxide. It's also methane or other 240 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: greenhouse warming gases, and they're multiplied to kind of show 241 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: the greenhouse warming potential of that emission. And we package 242 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: that all into a single metric So it's about fourteen. 243 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: And just to give you what that means and context, 244 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: hamburgers about six kilogram of tomatoes about two point two 245 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: pounds of tomatoes in the grocery store. That's about nine emissions. 246 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: So a sneaker is fourteen on average, and the ones 247 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: that we make are typically under ten. Right, I noticed that. 248 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: Hang on, sorry, I just wanted to show you. I 249 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: just got my first pair nice and I did see 250 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: you know your purpose on your box, which was cool. 251 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: You also labeled the carbon footprint right on the shoe, 252 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. We wanted to understand our impact, 253 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: so we had to develop our own tools so that 254 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: we could measure down to the gram of carbon dioxide 255 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: emissions what we were doing across the whole life cycle. 256 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: That means from like the farm to the consumer and 257 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: even through their use phase and end of life of 258 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: that product. So we had to develop a pretty sophisticated model. 259 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: Once we understood the impact, we decided we would be 260 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: carbon neutral. So we went through and created the strategy 261 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: to try to get down to zero carbon emissions ourselves. 262 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: But along the way we had to know what it was. First, 263 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: we had to start to reduce it from all our 264 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: internal activities, and then we also had to offset it 265 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: along the way, so we made it carbon neutral. We 266 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: then released the tool publicly and we also started labeling 267 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: our products around the same time, and we decided that 268 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: singular metric is best analogized by calories on the back 269 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: of a food label. It's a way to contextual, as 270 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: in a simple single metric, your impact on whether you're 271 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: contributing and exacerbating the problem on climate change or you're 272 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: helping combat it. So we wanted that accountability on the company, 273 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: and we wanted it put it on right on the 274 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: product so that everyone could start to evaluate quality of 275 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: product and price of product and also the environmental and 276 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: climate change impacts. And now now there's a way for 277 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: people to do that. We hope a lot of people 278 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: copy us, which is why we we kind of open 279 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: source and release this tool to the industry. That's awesome. 280 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: I love that. And in a way, you know, when 281 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: as I was reading about you and watching some videos, 282 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: it really does seem like you're a materials innovation company 283 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: as much as you are a shoe and apparel company. 284 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: Like you've developed brand new materials like tree and sweet foam, 285 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: great names, by the way, can you talk a little 286 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: bit about those those innovations. That is how we think 287 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: about ourselves actually, Like the reason for being for us 288 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: is innovation on naturally derived materials. We think about ourselves 289 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: as a purpose native company, meaning we established this company 290 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: with the idea that we would use it so that 291 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: every shoe we sold and every dollar we made in 292 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: revenue was going to increase our environmental impact in a 293 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: positive way. So that alignment between mission and financial outcome 294 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: was essential for us. And so the only way we 295 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: could get at that is to focus and constrain our 296 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: research and development process to naturally derive low carbon intensity materials. 297 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: And so every new innovation that we go and look at, 298 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: it's got to do four things. It's got to be 299 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: amazing for the consumer, it's gonna just feel better. That's 300 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: the first and foremost the most important thing. The second 301 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: is that it's got to be a reasonable cost, because 302 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, we have to deliver this at an approachable 303 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: value for customers. We have to have enough of it 304 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: in abundance so that it's durable, sustainable, and we can 305 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: make a lot of shoes out of it. And lastly, 306 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: it's got to be very low carbon intensity, and and 307 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: the best way to do that is to take the 308 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: best of nature and in a highly renewable fashion and 309 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: package it into a shoe that that does all those 310 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: great things that we try to do. So Tree was 311 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: a wonderful example where we use Forest Stewardship Council certified 312 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: eucalyptus fibers to make the uppers of our shoes. Sweet 313 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: foam is such a special one. We we knew when 314 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: we started the company. We really we wanted to be 315 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: very good and a big hole with the bottom of 316 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: the shoe, the soul and in the entire foot where 317 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: and all of it is made from petroleum. And we 318 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: knew from my background, we knew we had an opportunity, 319 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: particularly if we convinced this one company down in Brazil 320 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: to take the waste stream of sugar cane processing and 321 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: convert that through a number of biotechnology and the chemical 322 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: steps that we could actually replace the most ubiquitous foam 323 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: and all of the footwear industry. It's a it's a 324 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: chemical called e V A and and you can take 325 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: that and you can make it from the waste stream 326 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: of sugarcane processing, which actually makes it, in carbon accounting, 327 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: a carbon negative material that actually absorbs more carbon out 328 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: of the atmosphere than it takes to create it, So 329 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: you're a net positive every time you use this component. 330 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: And so we we use that, and we then we 331 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: converted into a foam which we call sweet Phone, and 332 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: we open sourced that based material to the whole industry 333 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: because it's so ubiquitous and using such high volumes in 334 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: the sneaker industry that if everybody used it, the planet 335 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: would be wildly better off, and it would also drive 336 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: the cost of that material down, so it would be 337 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: a win win for everybody. And so that kind of 338 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: collaborative approach to sustainability is often better than the traditional 339 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: super competitive method of innovation I P. Protecting. So you 340 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: and source these materials, so these materials are available. Yeah, 341 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: with our partner brass Can, we we co developed this 342 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: thing and then we we open source to everybody. And 343 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: some big brands are using and a lot of small 344 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: brands are using, and there's a lot of brands that 345 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: have yet to use it, and shame on them. You 346 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: should use it. Yeah, completely agree. That's that's super cool 347 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: and and obviously wool is also a huge part of 348 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: your proposition. So why wool, Well, you know, Tim is 349 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: from New Zealand and there is a lot of sheep 350 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: in New Zealand, a lot of sheep. There's like thirty 351 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: million sheep and a whole bunch of those of marino sheep, 352 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: and so Tim had a indoctrination from that bringing in 353 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: in the value of wool, and marino wool in particular. 354 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: It's a miracle fiber. It absorbs moisture and you don't 355 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: feel damp when you're wearing. It regulates your temperature, it 356 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: feels incredibly soft and touch and it's got some like 357 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: great strength characteristics. And it's not only is it wonderful 358 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: for all of those attributes making it an incredibly comfortable product, 359 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: but it's also from nature and particularly when you utilize 360 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: regenerative farming practices, which is one of our biggest initiatives 361 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: to push all the farmers we work with in New 362 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: Zealand and beyond to use regenerative farming practices. This too, 363 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: can be a carbon negative material, and so that the 364 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: power of harvesting wool in a regenerative manner and packaging 365 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: it into a product that feels better, performs better is 366 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: that magic sweet spot of where all birds exist and thrives. 367 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: Do you think leading a purpose led business is harder? 368 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: I asked that, because, for instance, you have a lot 369 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: more stakeholders to think about than the CEO of, for instance, 370 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: a traditional company who normally just thinks about shareholders. It's 371 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: an interesting question. I've never really thought about that, but 372 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: I kind of think it's easier. As long as you 373 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: intelligently designed the business system so that you're truly purpose native, 374 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: where which I define as as the financial and impact 375 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: incentives are exactly aligned, then I find it easier because 376 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: it's a tool that I use so much to make 377 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: sure that the purpose is resonating with our consumers so 378 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: they gravitate to our products more. The purpose resonates with 379 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: our employee base, so we get amazing talent. You know, 380 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: the purpose frankly resonates with our investors, like the the 381 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: idea that you can allocate your capital as a capital 382 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: allocator against opportunities that both make money and make great 383 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: impact on the world. These are all super aligned. So 384 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: I I find that the paradigm that is often assumed, 385 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: which is that these stakeholders are inherently intention is a 386 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: legacy of how business has skewed too far in one 387 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: direction around profit only and forgot that we all live 388 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: in a system. And so I find it quite a 389 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: lot easier. It's the tool I leverage the most great answer. 390 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: So at some level, proclaiming that All Birds is a 391 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: purpose led business makes the company target. Even if by 392 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: comparison you're a beacon of hope in your industry, do 393 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: you ever feel that pressure? Sure, And look, we try 394 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: to be very careful to say, uh, and we're pretty 395 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: clear about this that we are not perfect, like, but 396 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: there's lots of holes in what we're doing. You know, 397 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: the fact that we are above zero carbon emissions for 398 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: the products that we make means that we're not doing 399 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: a great job against our mission. Yet, like we need 400 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: to keep running super hard and working every day, which 401 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: is what we do to make amazing products that people 402 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: love and want to spend their money on and that 403 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: make a lower impact. Yet at the same time, there's 404 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: a lot of different perspectives on what ideal looks like 405 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: from an environmental perspective and what you should be fighting 406 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: for recyclability, circularity to others, it's climate change that lots 407 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: of people have a definition of of what this is. 408 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: So you're always exposed and when you put your neck 409 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: out and try to take a leadership role in anything 410 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: in life, people want to shoot you down when you 411 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: get up to a certain level. That's part of the job, 412 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: and I'm completely comfortable with that and also comfortable knowing 413 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: we may make some mistakes and all we can do 414 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: is transparently describe what we're doing and why we're doing 415 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: it and what our views are. And then you know, 416 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: it's up to consumers or other people to to make 417 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: a judgment on whether they believe in what we're doing 418 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: or not. I will humbly submit that I think we've 419 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: done a very good job of creating a system that 420 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: is logical and ladders up to making a very positive 421 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: impact on the most important problem our species faces, and 422 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: we do a lot of disclosure, you know, just as 423 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: an example, we're a public company. We do earnings calls 424 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: where we talked to investors every quarter and in the 425 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: beginning of the year. Typically a company, a public company 426 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: will give guidance for the next year on what you're 427 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: gonna do for your financial targets, what's revenue gonna look like, 428 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: what's profit going to look like. We also gave a 429 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: carbon reduction target in our earnings called guidance, and as 430 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: far as we know, we're the first company to ever 431 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: give a carbon reduction goal for what we're gonna do 432 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: in our R and D process to drive down carbon 433 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: emissions of our products throughout the next year. And that's 434 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: all aligned and budgeted against our goal to be a 435 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: zero emission company without the use of any offsets. That 436 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: gives you a sense of how we put ourselves out there, 437 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: how we try to drive accountability, how we try to 438 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: be authentic leaders and admit that we're not going to 439 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: be perfect all the way, but show people why we're 440 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: doing it and how we're doing it. It's interesting. I 441 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: want to dig into that for just a second because 442 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: it feels like in let's call it old school business, 443 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: transparency was something to be afraid of, Like you were 444 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: supposed to hide your flaws. You had to present this 445 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: kind of facade to the world that everything is perfect. 446 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: You're just making me think like being transparent in a way, 447 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: it's the best defense, right if you call yourself out 448 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: on things before anybody else does, you're sort of pre 449 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: disastered in a way to deal a line from the world. 450 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: According to Garb, like the worst has already happened in 451 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: a way, great great booked. Yeah, well, you know, I 452 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: I think there's another factor that contributes to that trend 453 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: that you're identifying is that information spreads more quickly than 454 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: it ever has. So if you're out there and you're 455 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: saying something to a consumer that becomes untrue your the 456 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: ability for your reputation to be snapped immediately is so 457 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,239 Speaker 1: high and will happen so fast that you'd be a 458 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: fool not to be authentic and transparent in this environment, 459 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: because at some point that you know, the music stops 460 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: and and and that's when the dancing stops. All Birds 461 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: began as a purpose led business, but there are a 462 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: lot of companies that didn't begin that way that are 463 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: now trying to figure out how to make the transitions. 464 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: So what advice would you have for the c e 465 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: O s who are just beginning their purpose led journey. Yeah, 466 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: it's a great question because I do empathize with that situation. 467 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of businesses that have been 468 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: around long before it was practical to be an environmentalist 469 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: in business, and long before even environmentalists got their hands 470 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: around what the problem looks like and how severe this is. 471 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: But that doesn't give an excuse for not acting with 472 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: extreme urgency right now. And I guess the thing I 473 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: would point to the most is that alignment of financial 474 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: outcomes with impact outcomes. And you know, corporate social responsibility 475 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: CSR is an acronym that's thrown around a lot that 476 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: to me often trivializes what businesses need to do in 477 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: terms of creating a truly purpose led enterprise. The reason 478 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: I'll say that is because CSR is often an appendage 479 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: that's off to the side of the business, and it's 480 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: it's saying, Okay, now we've made our profit, like, let's 481 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: do some philanthropic giving to this group that we think 482 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: is going to make a splash for consumers or make 483 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: our employees feel proud to work here. Whereas typically companies 484 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: who make products, sixty plus percent of the impact that 485 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: they make on the environment is born out of those 486 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: products and the materials they source to manufacture that products, 487 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: and the transportation and all that stuff. Focus on fixing 488 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: that for anyone that makes stuff, fix that and make 489 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: sure that it ladders up to the metrics that mean 490 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: the most. And so I would say, act with urgency, 491 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: act with purpose, create a system of incentives, even incentivize 492 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: the people who lead the business like these systems need 493 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: to be laddered up. So I told you that carbon 494 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: emission reduction goal that we stated alongside our financial guidance. 495 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm paid on that. If we don't hit those reduction 496 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: targets for carbon emission, I don't make as much money. 497 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: And same for all of the executives and and and 498 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: leadership team at all birds. We've done it all the 499 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: way down to that human level, and it all matters. 500 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: You've got to have this system with a singular or 501 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: simple set of metrics that you can manage a company 502 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: to just like your financials, measure your impact on that 503 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: and drive results. Yeah, No, I agreed, effort follows money, 504 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: just following the thread of money for a second, there's 505 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: people who ding purpose led companies because some folks claim 506 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: that you have to make a choice between purpose and profit. 507 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: In your mind, does being purpose led mean being somehow 508 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: less competitive or somehow having more modest financial goals? No, 509 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: let me let me reframe that for you. If you're 510 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: making a product, Let's say you're making a T shirt 511 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: and you have the opportunity to use super high end 512 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: fabric that feels incredibly comfortable, drapes perfectly, gives everyone the 513 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: perfect fit, but it costs a ton of money. Do 514 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: you use it or not? Some materials cost more, some 515 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: materials cost less, and you still got to make a profit. 516 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: So you have to make these judgments on the quality 517 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: of a product. We make the same kind of decisions 518 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: on sustainability, and you try to objectively make these into 519 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: a framework how much money can I spend? How much 520 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: money will my customer be willing to afford? In the 521 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: same way, we try to objectively arbitrate these decisions when 522 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: it comes to whether this is going to make a 523 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: strong enough environmental impact for us to absorb the additional 524 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: cost on two and and the way we objectively view 525 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: that is through what we believe is the best estimate 526 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: of the social cost of carbon and carbon emissions. All 527 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: of that has been estimated. Most people believe it to 528 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: around fifty bucks. We try to target about a hundred 529 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: bucks per metric ton of carbon diox that equivalent emissions 530 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere. If it's above or below, that line 531 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: helps us make that trade off, and we've inextricably linked 532 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: our value to customers, so it's not just a cost conversation. 533 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: But we know that if we launched a product and 534 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't have a hero material that's derived from nature 535 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: and it makes them perform better or feel more comfortable, 536 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: we are not delivering on the promise. So this is 537 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: it's a non negotiable for us, and we try to 538 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: objectively arbitrate this just like you would quality and cost conversations. 539 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Does being publicly traded ever create pressure to compromise on 540 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: any of those values, you know, going back to that 541 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: alignment of financial outcomes and an environmental impact, It really 542 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: doesn't get in the way for us. If tomorrow we 543 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: came out with a fully plastic shoe that was made 544 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: from all synthetics, like sure, maybe some people would buy 545 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: it for a while, but like the house of cards 546 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: would come down quickly in that case, so just feel wrong. 547 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: Kill it would feel wrong of course, So it doesn't 548 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: get in the way, um in that sense. And we've 549 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: always had the view that every time we've ever taken 550 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: money from anybody, friends and family, venture capital people, or 551 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: public investors, we have been very, very transparent and clear 552 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: about how we're established as a company. You know, we're 553 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: we're incorporated as a public benefit corporation with our public 554 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: benefit being environmental conservation equal in our responsibility to our 555 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: fiduciary responsibility. So you know, it's it's all out there, 556 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: like it's all legal. Everything we do comes from our 557 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: orientation around meeting this like critical and important consumer or 558 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: trend of associating what you consume with your values around 559 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: the environment. Yeah, that's incredibly inspiring. Use the phrase public 560 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: benefit corporation, and sometimes it's it's a little confusing because 561 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: public benefit corporation that designation gets wrapped up or confused 562 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: with being a B corp. And you are both, as 563 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: I understand it, that's right. Could you just help us 564 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: understand the difference between those two things. So a PBC 565 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: a public benefit corporation, is a legal framework and it 566 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: allows us as management team of the company not only 567 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: to do things on behalf of the stated public benefit 568 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: in our case environmental conservation, it actually implores you to 569 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: and and you actually haven't have an obligation to support 570 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: environmental conservation because that's our public benefit in the same 571 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: way that you have an obligation to protect the interests 572 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: of your shareholders. That would be called a fidy share responsibility. 573 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: And so because those two things are legally entwined, the 574 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: reason we did that if Tim and I are no 575 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: longer with this business, the next management team would also 576 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: have to have that obligation because it's truly inside of 577 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: the legal charter of the company, and you'd have to 578 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: have two thirds of your shareholders approve any kind of 579 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: change to that. And if we're no longer here, it 580 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: lives on. The B corp on the other hand, is 581 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: largely an assessment tool. It's a one size fits all 582 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: test that compares how All Birds does versus how the 583 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: local grocery store does, the local bedego whatever. Everyone can 584 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: be a B corp and so it asked you questions 585 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: about everything under the sun around wages and social impact 586 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: of your supply chain and environmental issues and a whole 587 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: bunch of different things. And it says, are you a 588 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: balanced stakeholder led company where you are attenuating various issues 589 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: for all stakeholders, not just whatever your public benefit is 590 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: on your PBC and corporation documents. It's quite a bit 591 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: of work. Yeah, it's very becoming a corp. It's like 592 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: very very very very extensive. And I'm proud to say 593 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: that every time we take the assessment, our scores get 594 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: better and it helps hold us accountable to being good 595 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: to all stakeholders, employees, supply chain partners, customers, the environment, 596 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: all the above. That's great. I have one or two 597 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: final questions to ask you. First of all, on calling BS, 598 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: we define BS as the gap between word indeed, and 599 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: we have a tool that we use called the BS 600 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: scale where we rate organizations on that gap, zero being 601 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: the best zero gap between word indeed and a hundred 602 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: being the worst basically total BS. So, taking into consideration 603 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: that you're on a journey, nobody's perfect, where would you 604 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: rate all birds on that scale today? UM, I'm gonna 605 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: I'll answer the question, but let me qualify my answer. 606 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: I would I would put our industry that we operate in. First, 607 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: I'll say, to give a contextual is this, I would 608 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: put it at like a like a eighty. There's worse 609 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 1: industries out there. There's like, you know, single use plastic 610 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: baggy companies that say they're sustainable. So so Sho's shoe 611 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: industry is not the worst in the world. At your 612 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: BS gap meter, I give our industry and a D 613 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: and I would put us probably at a twenty. But 614 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,959 Speaker 1: I think we should actually talk about what we do, 615 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: maybe even more than we talk about it, because I 616 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: think that people inside our organization have a lot to 617 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: be proud of because of how rigorous and intellectually honest 618 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: we approached the idea of making sure that our our 619 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: impact is positive and that every time we sell a 620 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: shoe and you choose to buy All Birds instead of 621 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: some other brand out there making shoes, you're doing something, 622 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: even if it's a small thing, you're doing something very 623 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: positive for the environment, and hopefully you'll love the product too. Joey, 624 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you're 625 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: spending the time with us today. So um, thank you 626 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for them. 627 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: It's a topic you're talking about time. I appreciate you 628 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: do in your work. Oh, I appreciate that. Thanks. I'd 629 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: like to end the show today by giving All Birds 630 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: an official BS score. The scale goes from zero to 631 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: a hundred. Zero means zero gap between word indeed, and 632 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: a hundred means the gap is huge total BS. So 633 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: you've heard Joey give himself a twenty. That's a low score, 634 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: and based on what I've heard today, I'm going to 635 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: agree with them because though the reality is no company 636 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: is perfect, All Birds has done so much to bake 637 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: their purpose right into their business. To weigh in with 638 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: your thoughts, visit our website Calling Bullshit podcast dot com. 639 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: You'll be able to see where All Birds ranks on 640 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: BS compared to the other companies and organizations we've featured 641 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: on the show. And if you're starting a purpose led 642 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: business or your think king of beginning the journey of 643 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: transformation to become one, here are three things that Joey 644 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: said that you should take away from this episode. One, 645 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: like Simon Sinex says, find your why. Your why is 646 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: the animating purpose that will inspire you, your employees, and 647 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: your customers. And your why is the real description of 648 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: the business that you're in. When Tim and Joey walked 649 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: the hills of northern California, they realized it wasn't the 650 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: shoes they were passionate about. It was making better things 651 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: in a better way. All Birds is a sustainable materials 652 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: innovation company that happens to make shoes. Your why will 653 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: be different, of course, but make sure it describes the 654 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: reason your company actually exists. Often, like All Birds, a 655 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: good why doesn't even mention the product you make. Two, 656 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: your business model really matters. In a truly purpose led company, 657 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: your business model and your purpose are aligned, meaning the 658 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: more of your products that you sell, the better off 659 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: society in the world will be. As Joey said, when 660 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: purpose and business model align, your business actually resonates more 661 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: powerfully with customers, employees, and suppliers, and it makes your 662 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: job as a leader much easier. Three. Define the metrics 663 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: that matter. Purpose led businesses strive to make a positive 664 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: social or environmental contribution to the world. Measuring that impact 665 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: and tying it to remuneration at every level of the 666 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: company is key. As Joey said, if All Birds doesn't 667 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,479 Speaker 1: hit their carbon reduction goals, then he and tim don't 668 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: get paid. Your impact goals may be different, but defining 669 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: them clearly and tying them to financial reward will get 670 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: everyone in your company aligned and inspired. Thanks for joining 671 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: us today, Joey, and thanks to the whole All Birds 672 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: team for helping make this episode happen. You can find 673 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: Joey's social media handles in the show notes, and if 674 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: you have ideas that we should consider for future episodes, 675 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: you can submit them on the website too. And if 676 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: you thought this episode was all right, rate and review 677 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts and subscribe on the I Heart 678 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 679 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: And thanks to our production team Hannah Beale, Amanda Ginsberg, 680 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: Andy Kim d s Moss, Hailey, Pascalites, Parker Silzer, Basil Soaper, 681 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: and me Jehan Zulu. Calling Bullshit was created by co 682 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: Collective and is hosted by me Time montegu Thanks for listening.