WEBVTT - Revelations in Trump Deposition 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:15.000 It's a totally false accusation. I have absolutely no idea, 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.079 which is there's some picture where we're shaking hands. It 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.520 looks like at some kind of it. That was former 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:26.480 President Donald Trump in June of denying advice columnist E 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.560 Jean Carol's claims that he raped her in a dressing 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.599 room in a New York department store in the nineteen nineties. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.320 Carol has sued Trump for defamation, and that suit is 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.120 scheduled for trial in April. In the meantime, Trump sworn 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.159 testimony was taken on October nineteenth that Mara Lago and 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.360 parts of that deposition have been unsealed, joining me as 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.440 Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson. So, Eric, why did the 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.200 judge unseal the deposition? Well, this was just an excerpt 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.400 of the deposition that was actually on steel and there 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.840 was it was unstealed by the judge because it was included. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.960 This portion of it was included in one of A. 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.720 Gene Carroll's filings and the defamation and battery case that 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.080 she filed against him. She was trying to argue that 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:12.640 you know, they didn't really need more discovery in this 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.120 case because Trump had already been questioned extensively about the 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.240 alleged rapes that occurred and the defamation. So they're arguing 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:22.640 that they need to wrap up discovery move on. And 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.039 their their evidence for this was to say, hey, look 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.920 at all this, all these questions that Trump already answered, 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.880 and they argued that that needed to be made public 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.960 under New York's rules. What struck me most about the 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.440 excerpt is that Trump didn't hold back at all in 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.280 the deposition. It seemed like he did everything that a 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.039 lawyer would tell a client not to do. Yeah, it 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.560 was definitely classic, you know Trump. It was kind of 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.520 what you might expect him to sound like under oath 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.240 in a case like this. You know, she didn't hold 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.920 back and saying, for example, that he was not attracted 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.120 to ee Gene Carol and and sort of trying to 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.600 defend his statement as a usedly defamatory statement by the way, 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.920 that she was not his type. And that's an argument 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:05.960 that he made early on in two thousand nineteen, when 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.800 he was trying to explain that he did not rape 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.200 her um and claimed that he had never even met her, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.440 in no contact with her whatsoever, um, And he thought 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.360 that it would be a good idea to say that 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.880 she wasn't his type, to sort of bolster that argument. Um. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.520 And that has been one of several statements that Trump 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.120 made that has been in the sort of the center 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.200 of this defamation case. And he was asked about that 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.079 sort of extensively in this deposition and explained in every 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.040 which way he could that he was not in any 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.720 way possibly attracted her and never could be. He called 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.600 the suit itself a big fat hoax. And that's a 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.640 word we've been hearing from him for many, many years. 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.920 And Carol's lawyer called him on that. Yes, you know, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.040 she wanted to, I think make the points that Mr 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.560 Trump sort of calls a lot of things hoaxes that 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.240 in fact are real. So, for example, she asked him 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.240 to explain, you know, why why he used the word 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.160 hopes so often, and he sort of went into a 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.160 long answer saying Russia, Russia, Russia, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine, saying 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.400 it was all a hope, um, the impeachment hoax, you know, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.440 Obama spying on his campaign hopes, all these hoaxes and 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.519 eating Carroll's lawyer said, you know what about climate change, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.720 You said, that's a hoax, And he said, yes, that 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.120 is a hoax for the most part, and went on 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.400 to say how the environmental movement was a hoax, and 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.200 so you know, made made a lot a lot of 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.880 comments like that that she sort of wanted to illustrate. Well, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.960 maybe when you say hoax, maybe it's not actually a hope. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.440 But you know, his transcripts or speaks for itself. There 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:40.440 was his lawyer there to caution him or give him advice. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.600 His lawyer was there. Lenahaba was there. She objected, you 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.800 know here there too, some of the questions that were 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.119 asked with a way they were asked, But there wasn't 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.440 any indication on the transcript that she was interrupting her 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.240 client to get him to say or not saying anything. 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.240 So um, he was definitely very very un filtered. You know, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.720 that's whether or not a jury would make anything of this. 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.600 You know, who knows. I mean, just because Trump has 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.119 called a lot of things hoaxes doesn't automatically mean that 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.360 eg and kills cases. It's true, and it's just something 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.279 that the jury will take into accounts when they're weighing 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.520 these allegations in the defense, so as far as the 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.080 alleged attack, which he denies. He was also asked, have 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.680 you ever kissed a woman without her consent? And he 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.080 got aggravated with the attorney at that point. Yeah. It's 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.440 hard to tell exactly what his tone was, but he did. 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:38.960 He said that he, uh, you know, he kind of 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:40.840 thought about it for a Minute's like, I don't think 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.880 I've had any complaints about that, except maybe from your 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.440 client who is a liar or something to that effect. 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.520 You know. Then Kills lawyer asked him as well, you know, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.640 do you know what sexual harassment means? Um, And his 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.000 response was yeah, pretty much. That's actually where that particular 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.159 excerpt of the transcript cut off. But yeah, he he 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:04.080 was asked a lot of details about his behavior with women. Um. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.360 He denied it, except to say that anyone who claims 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.920 otherwise is lying. And it's worth noting that in this case, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.560 Kills lawyers have already deposed two women who previously accused 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:20.799 Trump of sexual assault to sort of bolster their argument 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.719 that Mr Trump has this pattern of behavior. So we 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.520 haven't seen those depositions yet, but I'm sure that they 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.400 will be used if the case goes to trial. Even 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:37.279 when he seems to get caught in apparent inconsistency, he 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.760 tries to go around it, which is something we've seen before. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:47.040 He ended up calling Carol's publisher radical left leaning. Yeah, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.960 he did. You know, Kill's lawyer as him about some 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.520 of his remarks that he had made publicly that were 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.840 in the case, you know, accusing Carroll of making these 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.200 false allegations to try to sell a book that she 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.919 had written into that of the nineteen and he had 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.520 made some comments about her publisher being radical and left leaning. 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.280 He was asked about that, and it was pointed out 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.080 to him that the publisher, HarperCollins Um, actually published his 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.640 son in law, Jared Kushner's book Um, and Trump's response was, well, 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:17.840 it could be that they published from very bad ones too, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.120 So he was sort of called out on an inconsistency 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.040 there and just sort of brushed it off. I know 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.400 that Eegene, Carol said she saved the dress from the 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.280 alleged encounter, and they want to do a DNA test 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.080 on it. Has that test been done well? Actually, I 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.600 think that they were doing a DNA test and had 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.000 found some some samples of human DNA, whether it's hair 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.880 or things like that, and just wanted to try to 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.160 get actually a swab of Trump's you know, cheek or 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.120 something like that inside of his cheek to get a 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.080 DNA test to compare it to. My understanding is that 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.160 has not happened, and that it may not happen. I 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.800 believe at one point Ms Carroll's lawyer had said that 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.640 she was sort of willing to drop that just to 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.400 get things moving along. And frankly, I do think that 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:07.520 she has said she she believes she has such a 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.840 strong case without it that she does not, um, you know, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.480 need it. But I do not believe that that test 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.080 has ever been done. Wow, that that is a surprise. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.760 There's a question of whether this suit can even go 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.120 forward because he claims he made the remarks in the 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.440 course of his duty as president. So tell us about 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.200 DC's highest court hearing that, right, Yeah, So we're waiting 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.000 for a decision from the highest local court in DC, 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.239 the District of Columbia Court of Appeals, which is basically 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.320 looking at this a narrow sort of employment law question, um, 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.440 before this case can move forward in federal court in 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.440 New York. So there's a federal law called the west 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.080 Ball Act that protects all government employees from civil suits 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.520 related to their jobs. So Trump is arguing, and in fact, 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.320 the d o J backs his argument here that his 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.240 denial of miss Kell's claims in two thousand nineteen qualified 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.600 as a president Joel duty that he was actually just 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.840 responding to reporter's questions about her allegations, and that was 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.120 it that he needed to maintain Americans faith in the 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.720 White House, and that denying these allegations was just part 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.160 of doing that. Ms Carroll argued that Mr Trump was 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.600 just looking out for himself, that the things that he 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.120 accused her of fabricating the attack, trying to sell a book, 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.120 sort of conspiring with Democrats to politically hurt him, and 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.000 claiming falsely that she had accused the other men of 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.680 similar things. All these claims, she said, that goes too far. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.320 You were defaming me. That's not part of your job. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.720 But the DC Local Court, the DC Court of Appeals, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.360 will decide on this narrow issue of whether those statements 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.240 that Trump made qualified as part of his job under 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.840 local employment law, and if they rule against him, then 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.280 the case will be allowed to move forward to trial 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.520 in April and federal court in Manhattan. If they rule 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.959 in favor of Trump, then the case essentially ends here 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:59.600 because of that federal law. But surprise, surprise, Trump has 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:06.040 heated his claims on truth social after he left the presidency. Yes, 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.800 now that's definitely a bit more problematic here for the 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:11.959 president because Miss Carroll is, I think a lot of 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.240 people have heard, just a few months ago, filed a 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:20.280 new lawsuit against Mr Trump accusing him of battery essentially 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.319 the rape allegation under a new New York law that 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.880 has temporarily lifted the statutes of limitations on these historical 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.120 assault claims for one year. So she's one of many 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.280 women who are filing battery or rape or sexual assault 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.040 lawsuits against people. Trump was one of the first people 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.480 sued under that law. So we still have that civil 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.640 lawsuit accusing him a battery, and that lawsuit includes a 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:45.959 new claim of defamation over that truth social statement. So 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.880 even if he's able to avoid this earlier lawsuit because 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.000 he was president at the time, he'll still have this 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.360 other lawsuit moving forward. And if in fact both cases 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.679 moved forward, Miss Carroll is trying to combine them for 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.440 a joint trial, so that will all be her together. 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.600 Trump tried to have that suit under the New York 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.480 Sexual Assault Law dismissed. What were his claims? What was 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:14.840 his reasoning? So? Mr Trump argued that the battery lawsuit 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.719 filed under the New York Adult Survivor's Act violated his 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.520 constitutional rights under the New York State Constitution by depriving 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.559 him of his due process right, essentially making it. You know, 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.240 he's being accused of claims that are too difficult to 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.319 refute because of their old claims, the witnesses, the evidence, 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:36.520 everything is so outdated, Um, according to him, And you know, 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.600 this is an argument we can probably expect to see 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.439 a lot in a lot of these cases that have 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.360 been filed under the Adult Survivor's Act. Just so happens 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.960 that his is one of the first. But in this case, 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.840 the judge denied the motion to dismiss um and has 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.199 allowed the case to move forward. The judge said that 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.839 he Mr Trump could not question, um, you know what 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.880 the legislature's and tensions were when they passed this law. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.400 Umpuld argued that they hadn't pointed to a specific injustice 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.800 to justify lifting the statute of limitations and the and 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.599 the judge disagreed that that was not true, and he 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.200 used pretty harsh words actually, um to get an indication 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.679 of what the justice system or the judicial system might 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:21.120 think of of lawsuits challenging or claims challenging this law. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.959 This particular judge said that it was lawfully passed and 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.320 that the arguments against it were pretty weak. I'm wondering 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.480 if Trump is going to argue that this it will 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:36.640 interfere with his campaign and should be done after the election. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.600 I don't think that that is probably going to work out, 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.640 just based on what some of these these judges have 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.640 been saying. The first defamation case on nineteen that is 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.840 already set to go to trial in April, I think 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.880 April eleventh, and that has already been set and is 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.160 sort of written in stone. Whether or not there later 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.679 the battery cases combined with it, that might mean that 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.080 it needs to be delay eight or maybe it'll happen 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.559 in April. But you know, he's already Trump and his 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.280 grievous adult children and his company are also going to 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.360 trial in October, and the New York Attorney General's fraud 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.200 case against the company, and then in early there's another 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.760 trial some investors who sued Trump and his his kids 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.080 and his company for fraud over a multilevel marketing company 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.440 that they've promoted on The Celebrity Apprentice. That's another sort 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.760 of big trial that's going to happen in early So 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.160 these judges are setting these these trials knowing that Trump 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.439 is running for president again and with the idea that 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.880 they can be wrapped up before he really has the campaign. 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.040 But of course that's just sort of a tip of 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:44.880 the iceberg for some of his legal troubles as that happens. Yeah, 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.480 I'm so curious. I'd love to know how many lawyers 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.800 he's employing at once to fight all these civil lawsuits 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:56.679 and the possible criminal cases. It must be quite a few. Okay, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.920 I want to change topics now to another case. You've 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:05.720 and writing about Huncle con Win and come Real Farms, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.000 but don't know where on Hennon. That's former tech entrepreneur 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.280 Heather Morgan, a rapper who dubbed herself on social media 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.760 and in music videos as the Crocodile of Wall Street. 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.280 She's also an accused cryptocurrency thief facing trial with her husband. 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.800 They're accused of trying to launder four point five billion 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.880 dollars of bitcoin stolen from the bitf Next currency exchange, 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.800 and despite being under house arrest, she's got a new 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.559 job at a tech company and a dispensation from the 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.000 judge and the government to commute to it. Eric tell 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.840 us a little about Morgan. Heather Morgan and her husband 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:49.200 Sein were arrested last February and charged with money laundering 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:53.400 scheme involving four and a half billion dollars of bitcoin 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.240 at least that was the value of it then stolen 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.640 from the bits and Next currency exchange. So they've denied wrongdoing. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.000 You've been under house arrest and miss Morgan, you know, 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.360 as you mentioned, she filed herself as a rapper. She's 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.760 a former tech entrepreneur, but she used the rapper name Razzlecan, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.640 and you know, went a little bit viral on social media, 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.000 that's sort of thing, and with some of the videos 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.160 that she would make and what she called herself the 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:21.440 crocodile of Wall streets. So she has been under twenty 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.960 fur home confinement for quite a while now, and some 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.200 of their hearings are frequently delayed because they seem to 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.520 be in some sort of potential plea deals. The government 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:33.840 has said they're trying to resolve the case without a trial. 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.240 She and her husband are facing something like twenty years 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.720 in prison. So what happened? Her lawyer filed a letter 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.720 with the magistrate judge in Federal Court in Washington asking 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.640 to have the terms of her confinement modified so that 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.760 she can leave on Monday's, Wednesdays and Fridays to go 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.480 to New York City and work at the offices of 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.880 her new employer, which was not named in the document, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.360 but she said that she would be a working in 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.080 a role as a growth marketing and business development specialists, 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.440 and they asked to keep the name of the employer's 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.520 secret because of harassment that she had received on social 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.720 media as a result of intense media coverage of the case. 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.720 So we don't know what company this is. We really 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.480 don't know anything other than that. But the government notably 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.240 did not object to this, and the judge granted the 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.120 requests the same day, and really surprised the government didn't 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.800 object to this because they previously said that the couple 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:34.240 had highly troubling overseas ties and fraudulent identities, as well 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.600 as access to hundreds of millions of dollars in cryptocurrency. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.360 And when they were arrested, the government initially asked the 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.480 judge not to allow them to be released on bail 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.520 because they were a flight risk. Correct. And also the 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.200 government has said as recently as November, I believe that 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.760 the case, as they continue to prepare for trial, regardless 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.160 of whatever PLA talks may be happening, that the case 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.080 is going to involve potentially very sent It is national 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.680 security evidence, so they had to get a special order 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.200 to only show the defense, you know, a summary of 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.560 some of their evidence because it was too sensitive and 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.440 classified to show to someone who didn't have that clearance. 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.240 So there's a national security angle to this case too, 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.240 which makes it even more interesting. But I feel like 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.680 one way or another, we're eventually going to get some 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.000 more information that maybe makes some of this makes sense. 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.240 But yeah, the government does not seem to have a 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.440 problem with this particular defendant charged in a serious crime 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.840 going to work for a technology company and going into 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.120 the city to be there in person. Maybe we'll learn 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.680 more at the status conference set for next Friday, unless 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.040 they delay that as well. Thanks so much, Eric, that's 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.800 Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson. It's a case with a 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.960 legal economic and political ramifications, and it will be up 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.160 to the Supreme Court to decide whether the United States 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.520 can bring criminal charges against Turk state owned halk Bank 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.959 over allegations that helped Ran to evade economic sanctions by 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.920 laundering billions in oil and gas revenues. I think it's 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.080 pretty bizarre for this court to tell the President of 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:17.600 the United States, as a matter of his national security exercise, 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.479 that even though the Constitution doesn't prohibit what you're doing, 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.840 even though a statute doesn't prohibit what you're doing, this 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.080 Court is going to prohibit your exercise of national security authority. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:33.680 That talk about big steps, it is that's huge. Other 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.920 justices were concerned about whether allowing the federal prosecution to 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.840 proceed might open the door to US states targeting foreign 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.960 nations as well. Here are Justices Neil Gorsch and Sonya 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:51.000 So to mayor, then states would be free to try 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.119 to bring lawsuits against Mexico for this or that, or 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.080 perhaps China because of COVID or Who knows what a 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:04.280 creative state prosecutor might come up with. I don't know 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:10.080 how um I would want to leave to the vagrancies 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:16.440 of individual prosecutors. Whether it's federal or state the right 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:23.359 to insult another nation by giving them this unbridled power 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.919 to initiate suits joining me is constitutional law expert Harold Crant, 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.480 a professor at the Chicago Kent College of Law. I'll 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.800 explain the main issue here these two is whether they're 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.280 either state or federal courts. In this case, of federal 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:43.040 court can try a instrumentality of a foreign government for 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.760 criminal offense. And on the First Crimes Act that we 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.880 enacted after our nation was instituted, we had the courtet 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.000 cognizance of all offenses against the United States, and so 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.120 that would seem to suggest that foreign powers foreign corporations 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.960 were included within that jurisdiction prevision. But at international common law, 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.480 federal instrumentalities and federal states were rarely included in those 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.200 kinds of criminal cases. So the question is whether that 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.920 original granted jurisdiction or subsequently under the Foreign severn the 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.960 Immunity Act, has Congress decided either yes or no to 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:22.880 allow criminal prosecutions against foreign entities or foreign states. All 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.000 Banks attorneys said, the world has been around for like 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.440 seven thousand years and no country has ever tried another country. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.680 But hasn't the US sued foreign owned corporations. They have, 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.800 There have been several proceedings, but there haven't been many 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.040 and or all argument. It was clear that there was 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.080 only a handful that could be counted really two or 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.040 forty years of our nation's history. There was a discussion 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.320 of several examples where the US had brought criminal prosecution 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.840 against foreignown entities, principally of Chinese and state owned enterprises. 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.840 There are many places in the world where such prosecutions 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:00.920 are not from the IT and there is sort of 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:05.720 a common law notion that foreign entities and closely held 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.359 foreign corporations should not be subject to criminal suits. Now, 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:13.080 foreign officers of those corporations can be subject to criminal suits, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.000 but not the corporations themselves. Back the common law the rule. 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.439 In this case, both President Trump and President Biden decided 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.480 not to go against individual officers of Health Bank the 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.720 Turkish Bank, instead to go after the bank itself, because 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.080 it was important to set a standard and to prosecute 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.480 the Turkish Bank itself for its efforts to help circumvent 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.600 the stations against Iran. One of the concerns, probably an 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.560 obvious concern of the justices was usurping the power of 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.359 the president to make national security decisions. It there was 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.119 an anomaly that was discussed at or larguments. On the 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.800 one hand, shouldn't be administrations of Trump and Biden, no best, 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.359 what's in the foreign diplomatic interests of the United States? 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.680 And why should it be to the course to decide 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.960 that such prosecutions are not contemplated by Congress. On the 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.840 other hand, if the position of the its government is 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.320 to be followed, that would allow prosecutions of foreign owned 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.200 entities in state court, and that would be a cummersome 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.280 embarrassment that state prosecutors could initiate charges and that the 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.560 federal government could not easily intervene to stop those prosecutions 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.880 and wouldn't get disrupt diplomatic relations. Justice Elena Kagan asked 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.400 about news reports that came out about the Trump administration 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.840 at one point allegedly pressuring the Southern District to drop 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.760 the case. Is there a question here about the power 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:40.520 of the executive branch to quash cases that affect international 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.239 relations or was that just one point she made? There 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.000 was a lot of discussions or oral argument about what 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.760 steps president could take if a U S Attorney in 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.320 some district went ahead with a prosecution that would embarrass 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.800 the diplomatic efforts of the government and the Representative Social 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.640 General's office with a little kg in history answer those 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.800 questions saying that there was informal mechanisms, there's discussion, there's 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.080 always good faith, but he could point to no concrete 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:12.800 way that the President could stop a U. S. Attorney 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.399 from bringing such a suit other than possibly a public 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.480 threat to fire the U. S. Attorney for taking steps 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.320 against the interests of the United States. And which way 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:27.359 do you think the statutory interpretation leads. There's a very 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:32.040 complicated satutory interpretations questions, because at the first point, the 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.680 seventeen Statutes seems to have no limitation all in terms 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.440 of prosecutions of foreign loan entities, and the Foreign stron 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:43.040 Communities Act seems to talk only about civil actions and 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:45.960 not really about criminal actions at all. So much of 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:48.200 the time the oral argument was just trying to figure 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.280 out what to do about these open ended satutory terms 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.120 that didn't seem quite to fit together. But in terms 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.080 of the policy concerns, the twin acts I think of 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.320 concern were one is why should the courts be stepping 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:02.639 in and saying this is a bad idea to allow 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:06.240 prosecutions of foreign own entities when it's really in the 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:10.840