WEBVTT - Snakes vs Octopi (featuring Dr. Matt Giorgianni) 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.559 How does an animal end up with something like venom? 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:12.719 I mean, I can see how it would be great 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.760 to have something like venom to kill your prey, but 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:20.640 could the evolutionary process through which venom is developed to 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.880 be dangerous to you as well? Like, I'm notoriously clumsy, 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:27.440 but I can't be the only one out there who's 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.680 bitten their cheeks or their lips while they're eating. What 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.479 if a snake accidentally bit itself? How do you keep 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.720 from hurting yourself with your own venom? Or did something 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.800 like personal anti venom to your own venom evolve at 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.720 the same time? And what evolves first the venom or 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.239 the fangs needed to deliver the venom. The evolution of 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.840 snake venom is endlessly fascinating and is associated with all 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.120 sorts of misconceptions. And we got super excited about this 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.480 question after a listener asked us a prete particularly fun inquiry, 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:05.600 which was this, if a rattlesnake bit an octopus, would 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.840 its venom have any effect? So on today's show, we 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:14.600 bring on venom expert doctor Matt Georgiani, who exhibits the 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.600 patience of a saint as Daniel and I Pepperham with 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.480 loads of weird questions about snake venom and his culinary 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.760 work with hot dogs and marshmallows. Welcome to Daniel and 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:27.800 Kelly's venomous universe. 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:41.240 Hi. 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.240 I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and I've never been 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:45.440 bitten by a snake. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.240 Hello. I'm Kelly Wainer Smith. I study parasites and space 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:50.720 and for a whiler. Actually I thought it was going 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:52.720 to be a herpetologist. I've been bitten by snakes a 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:54.080 bunch of times, and I love them. 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.560 You love being bitten by snakes or you love snakes 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:58.520 despite being bitten. 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.640 I love snakes despite being bit And I've never been 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.400 bitten by anything dangerous that I worried about, but man, 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:04.160 I love snakes. 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.880 Tell us a story about how you got bitten by snakes. 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:08.840 Were you going for a hike and one jumped down 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.200 in front of you? Were you wrestling a python in 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:12.400 the Amazon? What happened? 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:14.799 I was working in a snake lab. Actually it was 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:16.880 more of like a herpetology lab. We had all kinds 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.440 of cool stuff in there, and I was feeding the 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.840 animals over Christmas break and I it was my fault. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.160 I was not really paying attention. Because I was showing 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:27.919 the snakes to some of my friends and I had 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.440 put my hand in some rat water because I'm just 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.000 really a disgusting human being. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.280 Wait, rat water is what exactly? That's rat flavored water. 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.280 That's water for the rats. What is it? 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.120 Well, you know you got to thaw out rats before 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.760 you feed them to the giant boas. And so I 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:46.840 had just finished thawing out a rat. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:48.040 It's rat juice. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.840 It's rat juice. And I had put my hand quickly 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:57.000 into the container with the boa and I really should 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:58.799 have very like, you know, slowly done it, but but 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:00.840 I was talking to someone not really paying attention. The 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.280 boa went for the rat and got my hand because 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.600 all my fault, and it let it let go right away, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.520 and then it you know, backed off and was like, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.600 oh my gosh. You know, it was like apologizing in 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.960 its own way. And anyway, I went to the doctor 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:18.519 just to be like, oh, do you have to worry 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.160 about like any bacteria or whatever. My mom insisted I 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.440 go to the doctor and the doctor was like, no, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.880 you're You're probably fine. We'll give you some antibiot exist 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.680 in case, but you are officially the weirdest case I've gotten. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.120 I think it was this year. It might have been today, 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:34.840 but I think it was this year. And anyway, so 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.440 I was, you know, proud of myself. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.760 How big a snake are we talking here? If it 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.920 can eat a whole rat, then it could probably eat 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:42.800 your hand, right, Like, this is a big snake. 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.720 I mean, so boas can't like, you know, chew off 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:48.760 your hand and separated from the rest of your body. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:50.640 That's not how they roll. They like swallow things whole. 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.040 But they could like ingest your hand and then ingest 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.280 your arm and just like gradually you could end up 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:56.520 with like a boa arm. Right. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.080 It didn't have that kind of personality. We didn't have 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.320 like hyper aggressive snakes. They were all very docile snakes 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:04.880 in this lab. 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:06.720 But this is a big snake we're talking. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.400 Anyway, Yes, yeah, it was a big w Wow. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.640 Wow, Kylie got bitten by a big snake. I did 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.040 not know that. That's incredible. 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.360 It was a very nice snake and it was one 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.760 hundred percent my fault. I was not being careful. But anyway, yes, 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.039 I've been bitten by snakes big and small, and I 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.240 love them all. And when the rat snake gets into 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.839 our coup, we very gently move it to another location. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.000 And yes, snake's the best. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.120 Yeah, I'm a fan of snakes the way i'm a 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.200 fan of spiders, you know, like spiders eat mosquitoes, snakes 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.000 eat rats. Like it's all part of the evolutionary war 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:37.880 that's going on outside all the time. 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.480 Yeah. When after we removed the rat snake from our coup, 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.240 rats became a problem in the coop and that was 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.160 way worse than the rat snake. I should have left 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.920 the rat snake there, but I relocated it. And then 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.320 I was like, I should have left the rat snake there, 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.680 like it was the rent that it was. You know, 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.640 it was eating like an egg every few days or something, 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.680 and I should have let it do that in return 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.600 for it rat control services. 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:02.960 It's a pretty good deal. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.600 It was a pretty good deal, and I didn't realize it. 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.040 Yeah, all right, Well today is a very sneaky episode 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.479 of Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe, all inspired by a 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.320 question we got from a listener. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.320 And this is an amazing question. This is a real 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.760 head scratcher. We got lucky because Daniel has a friend 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.800 who could answer it. But before we get to that, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.200 let's go ahead and listen to the question. 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.480 Here it is for rattlesnake, but an octopus, But it's 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.560 venom have any effect? Some toxins like fly spray are 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.520 very specific as to what animals they harm, and rattlesnakes 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.680 probably only care about what they can do to vertebrates. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.280 Are venom of snakes immune to their own venom? Does 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.560 this give them resistance to the venom of other snake species? 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.240 Do snakes if I try to envenom other snakes? 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.039 So many great questions, and one of the things I 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.680 love about science is knowing people who study so many 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.200 different weird things. Say if you send me a super 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.520 weird question and might just go, oh, I actually know 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.800 a person who's dedicated their lives to understanding this particular 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.240 question about the universe or snakes. 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:12.359 I mean, I feel like that's one of the amazing 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:14.240 things about grad school is you get thrown in with 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:16.240 so many different kinds of people, and then twenty years 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.800 later you could be like, I know someone who studies 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.880 snake venom making as answer a question about whether a 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.880 rattlesnake could kill an octopus if it'd beit it, I know. 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.880 The guy exactly. But before we heard from the guy 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.240 who might know the answer. We thought, what are the 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.919 extraordinaries think about this extraordinary question? So Kelly sent this 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.200 question to the list and here's what people had to say. 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.400 I would say that there has to be some effect, 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.680 but maybe not the one we are expecting. But wait, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.799 how would the two creatures find themselves in such a situation. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.120 I don't think the bite of a rattlesnake would have 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.560 any effect on an octopus. Octopuses have their own incon venom, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.560 so I think a rattlesnake's bite might herd or stay octopus, 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.720 but I don't think it would have any deliterious effect. 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.200 Rattlesnake venom is not species specific. 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.760 I would guess that octopus biology is not so diversently 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.160 farm from typical prey that there is no effect. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.880 It seems plausible that rattlesnake venom can kill an octopus, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.800 because venoms can be effective across very different animal types. 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.720 A blue ring octopus can kill a human, for example. 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.560 I suspect it may depend on the species of rattlesnake 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:28.080 and the species of octopus. 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.760 I would think that the octopus don't they have some 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:37.040 sort of neurological isolation between tentacles. Maybe that would allow 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:41.320 it to kind of minimize or neutralize the neurolithic effects 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:42.200 of a toxin. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.640 They are species that evolved in very different environments, and 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.640 the octopus is not unusual prey to the rattlesnake. 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:50.600 I don't know. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.560 May not work poison, would not work an octopus because 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.200 snake poison is formulated by nature to only work on 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:05.200 land mammals. Possibly would kill an octopus, but heathery getting 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.880 together or I'm not sure the hell of a blonde 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.480 dit what? I didn't know octopus has had any venom 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:16.680 at all, so that's spectacular. Now as to anza and honesty, 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.400 I actually. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:19.320 Have no clue. 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.520 If a rattlesnake then an octopus, its venom would be 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.040 devastating to the octopus. Also, I don't know how the 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.720 rattlesnake would get its scuba regulator back in its mouth 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:33.800 with no hands. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.200 It probably would not enjoy it at all, but I 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.280 don't know if it would kill it. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:42.360 Can a rattlesnake transfer is vendom to the octopus, I 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.880 don't think so, but who knows. The octopus could then 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.360 transfer his or her back into him. But octopus like 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.080 a blue ring octopus for example. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.160 Uh so, for example, a venomous snake might be more 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:59.719 venomous to one type of mammal than another. But what 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:02.920 I have no idea about an octopus. 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.960 Yes, but we need a bigger collider. Oh wait the 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:06.400 other one. 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.520 Uh it depends now. 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.160 I don't want to be too negative, but there were 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.960 a lot of people who were like, well, this premise 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.960 is unrealistic, and I have to wonder, are you all 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.920 not fun to watch science fiction movies with because we 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.960 asked you to suspend your disbelief for this one. 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.960 That's true, and we probably are not making our audience 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.400 better at watching science fiction movies by teaching them all 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.920 this science, right, we're probably making them into the well 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.160 actually people watching those movies. 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:36.960 On the other hand, I did laugh out loud at 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:37.880 a lot of these answers. 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.760 These are great. These are great, So thank you everybody 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:42.880 for speculating. If you would like to be part of 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:44.839 this segment for a future episode, don't be shy. We 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.600 would love to add your voice to the chorus. Questions 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.439 at Danielankelly dot org will get you on. 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.640 The list, all right, So, without further ado let's bring 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.320 the guy on the show to answer this amazing question. 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.960 So then it's my great pleasure to introduce to the 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.080 podcast my friend, my colleague, Matt Georgiani. He is an 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.840 evolutionary biologist and a research scientist at the University of Maryland. 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.360 He's also a long standing adjunct faculty member at the 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.480 Whites And Research Institute, where he's best known for his 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:23.120 pioneering work regarding hot dogs and marshmallows. True story, what. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:22.480 What is that? 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:22.640 What? 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.920 You all are colleagues on his work at the whites 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:26.800 And Research Institute. 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:28.760 Yeah, that's the work I'm most proud of by far. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.280 It's your enduring legacy. Whenever we mention you, Hazel goes, wait, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.040 is that the marshmallow hot dog guy? And we go Yes, 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.120 that's exactly that guy, because they have burned into their memory. 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.560 One time when we were all on vacation together, I 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.840 think was it in North Carolina and we had hot 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.160 dogs and Matt was like, hmmm, I'm gonna put marshmallows 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.880 a hot dog, and it blew their little minds. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.280 Well, the key was the giant marshmallow and then tunneling 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.120 a hole for the hot dog. So it was a 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.000 marshmallow bun to a hot dog. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:01.880 Right, amazing? 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:02.920 Yes, incredible? 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:04.040 Was this a bonfire? 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.040 No bonfire is required for this amount. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.520 Of creedy A normal So wow, WHOA. 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:12.480 Now you see the kind of out of the box 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.280 thinking that Matt is capable of, which is why we 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:16.800 thought it would be great for him to come to 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.920 the podcast and answer all of our out of the 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:19.959 box questions. 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.240 Well, I'm kind of amazed that a teenager would focus 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.839 on the hot dogs and marshmallows thing when you had 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.760 someone at the house who studies snake venom, which seems 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.480 way more epic than marshmallows and weenies. But let's dig 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:36.280 into a little bit more. We've got a bit of 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.600 a picture now of what kind of a person Matt is. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:44.000 He's innovative in the kitchen, but Matt as someone who 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.680 studies snake venom? Are you like? Also the kind of 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.640 person who owns a snake hook and is like regularly 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.040 picking up venomous snakes? Like, what kind of a snake 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:52.680 person are you? 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.520 So this is where I get to disappoint all your 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.840 audience members right away. Oh amazing, I am not a 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:03.240 snake person by nature. I did not grow up handling 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.840 lots of snakes. I don't necessarily like I didn't have 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.960 like some love for them, but I came to them 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.320 through sort of as an evolutionary question, and I've since 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.040 then become quite enamored by them. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.320 Have you ever eaten a snake inside of marshmallow? 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:17.959 No? 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.360 But essentially a snake and a hot dog are the 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:25.800 same thing. Neither one has legs. They're both just tubes 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:26.200 of meat. 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.559 So I see why you two get along, now, how 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.040 you How where did your two meet? 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.040 In graduate school? 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:34.559 So? 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.760 He was in Chicago and I was. I was a 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:41.000 graduate school in the University of Chicago, and uh, and 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.600 Daniel and his physics crew would like come and hang 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.640 out like the cool kids with their leather jackets. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.000 And I don't believe any of this. 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:56.320 Now, let's fact check that story. So that was in 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.760 grad school with Katrina. They're both the University of Chicago 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.840 and biology, and I was a physics interlooper. It was 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.480 not at University of Chicago, but since continuing I were 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.520 living near campus, the physics department gave me an office, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:10.400 so I got to hang out. And I mostly hung 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.439 out with the biologists, to be honest, because there were 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.640 more fun. But I would also bring a bunch of 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:16.160 physicists to the biology parties. 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:17.640 Oh okay, great. 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.319 Which always improves the party, right, I. 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:24.320 Mean until we start talking about poop. But you know, 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.440 I mean I think that's fun too. Okay, So you 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:31.120 weren't snake wrangling when you were younger. Are you someone 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.360 who handles the venomous snakes now or am I? Am 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:35.600 I pushing this still? 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.640 No, I'm still quite a coward. I've only so we've 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.600 gone down to extract venom and to extract tissues and 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.280 things like that. So the only snakes I've handled, well, 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.200 I have handled some dangerous snakes. That's only really after 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.920 they're dead. And so I've dissected out venom glands and 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.000 I've done these sort of things, and it's they're great 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.240 and they're exciting. But I went into a room that 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.760 was full of rattlesnakes and I walk in the room 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.400 and they instantly all pop up and start rattling, and 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:07.040 I bath had a heart attack right there. So some 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.120 people go forward into that room and other people are like, yeah, 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.080 this is not safe. 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:13.920 So you came to this question. You were saying from 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.800 an evolution airpoint of you got excited by the scientific 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.760 question of them. So let's dig into that, and let's 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.200 ask some first basic questions like how common is it 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.280 for snakes to produce venom? 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:25.720 Right? 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.040 How many different species produce venom? Do you know how 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.360 many times this evolved in the history of snakes? And 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.120 why don't hot dogs make venom? 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:34.480 Well that you know of. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.640 If you let them sit out too long, they kind 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:38.800 of do. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.800 So there is something like you know we have, there's 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:47.520 something like four thousand species of snakes, and and within 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.200 venom is primarily in two groups of these snakes. And 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.800 so I'll say three names now just to get like 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:56.920 these are of names, I'll probably keep saying a lot. 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.480 So within the sort of advanced snakes, which is is 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.240 going to be most of the snakes that you're aware of, 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.480 but does not include a few little guys and some 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.680 big fat like pythons and boas. But all the rest 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.080 of them fall into three groups, which are the elapids, 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.480 which are like your cobras and crates. There's vipers, which 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.080 include rattlesnakes, and then clubrids, which is most of your 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.120 garden snakes and rat snakes, king snakes, all your little 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.440 friendly guys, and so those three groups are many of 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.960 the species, probably more than half of the species of snakes, 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.600 and kalubrids being the biggest group of them. But elapids 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.880 and vipers are your two big branches that are venomous, 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.400 and those are each about three to four hundred snakes 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:41.760 each or species. 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.720 So there's hundreds of kinds of venomous snakes. 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.480 There are, yes, wow, yeah, quite a few. 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.680 And did venom evolve once and then branch into both 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:53.520 groups or did it evolve multiple times? 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:55.880 Right, So this is the great question that we get 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.680 at and one of the reasons that like that we 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.840 were so excited to study it. So venom is cool 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.040 because it's secreted, you know, it's secreted from these venom glands, 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.480 and it's in this hyper pouch and they have like 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.080 syringe like teeth and they can excrete it. But because 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.400 it's in this kind of specialized pouch, it seems like 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.920 evolution can run a little wild in there. So one 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.880 of the things about most evolutionary novelties and things that 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.640 happen in evolution is that you're trying to modify proteins 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.360 or processes that exist elsewhere in the body. So if 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.880 you mutate those things, you can have problems everywhere. You 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.800 can have problems in your development or in other processes 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.280 or other physiological things. But if you can just sort 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:42.200 of sequester these venom genes to just the venom gland, 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.400 you can sec laboratory and you can start to just 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.600 mess with these things. And it seems that that's what 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:47.920 snakes have done well. 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.480 And let's back up and unpack that because not all 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.920 of us are evolutionologists. Yeah, sure, you're saying that evolution 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.160 works best when it's adapting existing genes. That's because it 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.680 takes like fewer mutations to like turn my spit into 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.280 acid then to like develop an entirely new fluid inside 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:06.360 the body, right. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.520 Right, And I mean new genes, like whole scale new 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.360 proteins are very very rare. I truly, new things are 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.320 very hard to develop or to evolve because you have 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.720 to come from something usually, and so most things that 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.000 evolution are sort of piecing together bits from other you know, 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.360 maybe merging things together or mutating things that exist already. 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.000 But it could be difficult if the thing you're trying 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.919 to mutate already has a really important function, and so 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.440 if you want it for a new role. It's difficult. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.520 I see. So you're mutating one thing, but you also 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.280 have to not mess up the system that already works. 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:41.800 Yes, that's really critical. 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.800 But if you were to be evolving a fluid into 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.360 an acid, you wouldn't want that acid all over your body. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.560 So if you could just get acid in a little spot, 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:53.840 that would be helpful. But then how do you evolve 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.080 that little sac? Where does the sac come from? 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.199 Right? So this is where and this gets into that 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.520 question of where does venom come from? When did it 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:06.320 first evolve? And then so we'll start with just with 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.239 those two groups of elapids and vipers, so they are 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.119 sort of separated by this middle group that calubrids. So 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.560 we have like this, there's an original ancestor of all 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.840 three of those groups, and then there's the vipers branch 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.840 off into their group, and then the next a little 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.960 after that, some several million years later, calubrids and a 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.320 lapids branch apart from each other. So because calubrids are 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.840 largely not venomous, we kind of have this all right, 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.920 So where did did venom come from? In each one separately? 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.280 But when we start to look, when scientists have looked 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.240 back at ancestors of these snakes. They can see commonalities 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.920 of like common proteins that are expressed in both of 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.159 those venoms, and sometimes they see it in some of 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.840 the oral glands or tissues of those middle group that calubrids. 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.480 So that tells us that the ancestor of all three 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.360 of them had some stuff that we know is in 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.280 venom today, and so it's very likely that some kind 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:06.880 of venom capacity or some quite dangerous spit, let's say, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:09.680 was probably present in that ancestor. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.080 Hold On, you're saying that because there's commonalities in their venom, 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.480 that it's likely that it evolved before the split, Right, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.359 But isn't there another hypothesis there that, like maybe they 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:27.440 discovered the same combination was useful independently, Like maybe you're 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.760 not the only person to put marshmallows and hot dogs together, right, 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.560 Other people can discover these delicious combinations. 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:38.800 I'll definitely argue that point. But so this there is, Yeah, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:40.600 that's a really good point that we can get these 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.200 things what we call convergently when two different groups evolve 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.920 the same thing. However, in this situation, what we're talking 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.399 about often is a particular gene, a venom gene that 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.720