WEBVTT - Anita Hill on Talk Easy 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.796 Pushkin High listeners. Anita Hill here, while we're hard at 0:00:22.796 --> 0:00:26.636 work on new episodes of Gettigeva, I wanted to share 0:00:26.716 --> 0:00:30.196 something special this week. It's a recent interview I did 0:00:30.316 --> 0:00:36.516 on another Pushkin show, Talk Easy, with Sam Fragoso. Every Sunday, 0:00:36.916 --> 0:00:41.116 Sam invites an artist, activists, or politician to come to 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:45.156 the table and speak from the heart. I talked with 0:00:45.236 --> 0:00:49.156 him about growing up during the Civil rights era, witnessing 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:53.676 the power of the court, and about following my mother's 0:00:53.876 --> 0:00:59.196 model for change. We revisit how my testimony at the 0:00:59.236 --> 0:01:04.276 Clarence Thomas Confirmation Hearing encouraged survivors of sexual harassment to 0:01:04.316 --> 0:01:10.796 come forward, and what the historic confirmation Judge Katangi Brown 0:01:10.876 --> 0:01:15.956 Jackson means today. To close, I share a point that 0:01:16.076 --> 0:01:21.076 gives me hope by activists Polly Murray. You can hear 0:01:21.156 --> 0:01:24.596 more episodes of Talk Easy wherever you get your podcasts, 0:01:25.276 --> 0:01:31.876 or at talk easypod dot com. For now, here's my 0:01:31.996 --> 0:01:38.556 talk with Sam Fregosa. Anita, what did you have for 0:01:38.596 --> 0:01:43.796 breakfast today? I had granola, much healthier than I would do, 0:01:43.956 --> 0:01:47.956 but I appreciate it. When you get to be sixty five, Sam, 0:01:48.036 --> 0:01:52.156 you might want to switch to granola, but don't push it, 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:54.956 don't rush it. I feel like by the time I 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:58.956 reached thirty five, I may want to switch to granola. Okay, Well, 0:01:58.996 --> 0:02:03.276 and you'll know when it's time. Anita Hill, thank you 0:02:03.316 --> 0:02:06.476 for being here. It's a pleasure to be talking with you. Well, 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:09.916 I am grateful to have this opportunity with you, and 0:02:09.996 --> 0:02:12.156 I just want to jump right in because you have 0:02:12.196 --> 0:02:16.716 a new podcast called Getting Even with Anita Hill. What 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:21.396 does getting even in this case mean and look like 0:02:21.596 --> 0:02:25.436 to you? Well, in this case, it means getting to equality. 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:29.036 I mean, the podcast is all about equality and how 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:33.396 we can get there. It goes beyond looking at inequalities, 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:36.236 and there are plenty of those out there, and there's 0:02:36.276 --> 0:02:40.276 plenty of evidence of it. But I think in this moment, 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:44.396 two years after twenty twenty and which was a year 0:02:44.476 --> 0:02:48.716 of reckoning and clarity on a lot of inequalities that 0:02:48.836 --> 0:02:53.356 we experience in society, two years later, we're ready for solutions. 0:02:54.196 --> 0:02:56.756 And there are people out there with solutions and I 0:02:56.796 --> 0:02:58.436 want them to be heard. I want them to be 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:02.636 on my show. I want people to listen and take 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:07.276 away a message that change is possible and that they 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:10.556 can be a part of that change. First few episodes, 0:03:10.636 --> 0:03:15.956 you have this mini series called Reimagining nineteen ninety one, 0:03:16.036 --> 0:03:19.636 in which you sit with Sakari Hardnett, a witness that 0:03:19.756 --> 0:03:22.476 was never called to testify at the confirmation hearing of 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:26.596 Clarence Thomas. You also sit with Georgetown law professor Susan 0:03:26.636 --> 0:03:30.156 Dela Ross, who served on your legal team during that hearing. 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:34.196 What has that process been like revisiting nineteen ninety one 0:03:34.196 --> 0:03:38.236 in twenty twenty two. Well, most recently I revisited nineteen 0:03:38.316 --> 0:03:42.916 ninety one in twenty eighteen when Christine Blasi four testified 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:47.476 and the majority of people around the country who were 0:03:47.556 --> 0:03:52.396 viewing it saw a repeat of nineteen ninety one in 0:03:52.756 --> 0:03:58.276 her testimony in the Brett Cavanaugh confirmation hearing. It's not 0:03:58.396 --> 0:04:01.676 as though I'm revisiting nineteen ninety one for the first 0:04:01.716 --> 0:04:05.796 time thirty years later. I think so often over the 0:04:05.796 --> 0:04:11.716 past thirty years, we have seen reverberations or echoes of 0:04:12.516 --> 0:04:18.476 nineteen ninety one in public processes. So in Revisiting, I 0:04:18.516 --> 0:04:22.356 wanted to take people back to nineteen ninety one to 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:25.556 think about the ways that things could have been done differently, 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:31.236 Things that were obviously available for the Senate Judiciary Committee 0:04:31.236 --> 0:04:35.956 to hear but that were never allowed into the record, 0:04:36.076 --> 0:04:41.116 including witnesses who wanted to testify, who submitted statements that 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:45.916 were relevant to my testimony and to their own experiences. 0:04:46.636 --> 0:04:50.556 That was my way of really introducing what we should 0:04:50.596 --> 0:04:53.436 be doing now. First of all, we should be taking 0:04:53.476 --> 0:04:56.756 all of the evidence in these public hearings. We should 0:04:56.796 --> 0:05:02.476 not be excluding individuals from bringing relevant information to our 0:05:02.516 --> 0:05:07.076 public processes, especially when it comes to issues of sexual 0:05:07.116 --> 0:05:12.956 assault and sexual harassment. We should give women and any 0:05:12.996 --> 0:05:17.636 survivor or victim their words should have the same weight 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:23.236 as the words of the nominee. And we've got to 0:05:23.276 --> 0:05:27.716 put together the processes that will make sure that things 0:05:27.756 --> 0:05:31.196 are weighted evenly. That really does kind of go to 0:05:31.316 --> 0:05:34.796 the heart of getting even How do we even the 0:05:34.836 --> 0:05:39.916 playing field? And we've got to understand that the process 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:44.676 is important, and if we don't pay attention to the process, 0:05:44.996 --> 0:05:49.236 we are going to repeat over and over again the 0:05:49.356 --> 0:05:52.436 same problems. Well, let's unpack some of that process. In 0:05:52.556 --> 0:05:56.996 nineteen ninety one, on one, Clarence Thomas was nominated for 0:05:57.076 --> 0:06:00.556 the Supreme Court by then President Bush. Political appointees typically 0:06:00.556 --> 0:06:04.356 receive an extensive FBI background check. But that did not 0:06:04.556 --> 0:06:08.516 happen between July one of nineteen ninety one and September 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:12.996 third of nineteen ninety one. And it's that day in 0:06:13.036 --> 0:06:16.756 September when you first received contact from the staff of 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:21.356 Senator Howard Metzenbaum, a Democrat from Ohio. As he said 0:06:21.396 --> 0:06:23.596 in a sworn statement on page twenty nine of the 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:27.276 Congressional Record for the Senate on October seventh, nineteen ninety one, 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:29.596 Anita Hill was one of three women who worked with 0:06:29.676 --> 0:06:33.516 Thomas at the e EOC who were contacted by my staff. 0:06:33.836 --> 0:06:36.956 They were asked about a range of women's issues, including 0:06:37.036 --> 0:06:40.116 rumors of sexual harassment at the agency. I want to 0:06:40.116 --> 0:06:43.156 emphasize and point out that Miss Hill did not make 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:46.676 an allegation against mister Thomas during that September third or 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:51.796 September fourth conversation. On September fifth, Miss Rickey Sideman, a 0:06:51.876 --> 0:06:55.116 second labor aid working with then Democratic Senator Ten Kennedy, 0:06:55.636 --> 0:06:58.916 called you. As Kennedy said again from that Senate record 0:06:58.956 --> 0:07:01.876 I quoted from the call was a systemic review of 0:07:01.956 --> 0:07:05.436 people who had worked with Judge Thomas, and Hill indicated 0:07:05.476 --> 0:07:08.236 that she needed time to decide whether she was willing 0:07:08.276 --> 0:07:12.036 to discuss the issue, the issue being of sexual harassment. 0:07:12.436 --> 0:07:15.476 Then on September ninth, you leave a message on the 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:19.076 phone of James Brudney, the Chief Council of Metz and 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:22.476 Baumbs subcommittee. I want to go back to that. What 0:07:22.556 --> 0:07:27.036 were you wrestling with in those four days between September 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:29.276 fifth and the ninth. First of all, what I was 0:07:29.316 --> 0:07:31.116 wrestling was it was the way that they had framed 0:07:31.116 --> 0:07:35.436 the question. They asked not whether I had been sexually harassed, 0:07:35.796 --> 0:07:39.356 They asked if I was aware of sexual harassment. The 0:07:39.476 --> 0:07:43.396 way the question was framed, I thought that perhaps somebody 0:07:43.396 --> 0:07:48.076 else had come forward and was I aware of that 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:51.876 person's situation, And I was only aware of my own. 0:07:52.636 --> 0:07:54.796 But I wasn't quite sure that that's what they were 0:07:54.836 --> 0:07:57.356 asking for. And I was also grappling with the fact 0:07:57.436 --> 0:08:02.796 that these are political processes. The confirmations for the Supreme 0:08:02.836 --> 0:08:06.276 Court are highly political. That you do it sounds like, oh, 0:08:06.356 --> 0:08:10.116 it's for the Supreme Court. Everybody's concerned about the judiciary 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:14.596 and the legal system. Well, some people are really concerned 0:08:14.756 --> 0:08:20.876 or about politics and political power and aligning with political power. 0:08:21.476 --> 0:08:27.876 And I was very concerned that this could possibly be 0:08:27.996 --> 0:08:32.036 one of those situations. Where there wasn't really any concern 0:08:32.076 --> 0:08:37.036 about sexual harassment, but there was just a chance to 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:41.156 make political points, and I didn't want my experience to 0:08:41.196 --> 0:08:45.676 be used just for political points. In the end, I 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:50.796 decided that I would step forward because I thought about 0:08:50.876 --> 0:08:53.836 what the process should be, and what the process is 0:08:53.916 --> 0:08:59.876 billed as is a concerted effort including an investigation into 0:08:59.916 --> 0:09:04.436 the character and fitness of a nominee for a position 0:09:05.476 --> 0:09:09.596 on the highest court in the country, and it's a 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:14.356 lifetime position. So I decided that I did have something 0:09:14.396 --> 0:09:19.036 relevant to say about my own experience, and that if 0:09:19.196 --> 0:09:23.716 the Senate Judiciary Committee took it seriously as a process 0:09:23.876 --> 0:09:30.876 for vetting an individual's qualifications, which to me includes integrity 0:09:30.916 --> 0:09:36.556 and honesty and respect for the law, then they would 0:09:36.596 --> 0:09:41.436 take my testimony series. So you signed up because you 0:09:41.556 --> 0:09:46.116 had this kind of lingering hope about what the process 0:09:46.156 --> 0:09:50.156 could and should look like, knowing all well that the 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:53.836 process was likely to fail. You absolutely think about it. 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:56.596 I'm a lawyer. I was teaching law students at the time. 0:09:57.196 --> 0:10:01.356 I'd teach my law students to have respect for the 0:10:01.436 --> 0:10:07.396 law and to value process and to really understand that 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:10.716 they should have an investment in making sure the systems work, 0:10:11.396 --> 0:10:15.756 and that means participating, not standing on the sidelines. That was, 0:10:15.876 --> 0:10:18.356 in part what was driving me. Another thing that was 0:10:18.436 --> 0:10:21.716 driving me was the fact that I grew up after 0:10:21.876 --> 0:10:24.476 the round versus Board of Education system. I'm the youngest 0:10:24.476 --> 0:10:28.596 of thirteen children. Ten of my siblings went to segregated schools. 0:10:29.716 --> 0:10:33.956 I and two of my siblings graduated from integrated schools. 0:10:34.596 --> 0:10:39.636 Our lives, our opportunities were different because of those different experiences, 0:10:39.956 --> 0:10:44.196 so I know firsthand the importance of the court. A 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:46.236 lot of people think of the Supreme Court it's a 0:10:46.316 --> 0:10:49.196 remote out there. They don't understand their process, they don't 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:52.676 understand their role, and they don't see how it affects 0:10:52.676 --> 0:10:55.196 their lives. But I had grown up believing that the 0:10:55.276 --> 0:11:00.596 court affected my life. I saw it was my responsibility, 0:11:00.796 --> 0:11:06.716 ultimately to at least challenge the system. You know you're 0:11:06.716 --> 0:11:11.716 talking about growing up in Oklahoma, the youngest of thirteen children. 0:11:12.436 --> 0:11:14.756 You grew up with the belief that the courts can 0:11:14.796 --> 0:11:17.436 affect change. But I also know that you grew up 0:11:17.476 --> 0:11:21.076 with the belief that, as your uncle George, your mother's brother, 0:11:21.116 --> 0:11:23.796 once said, if you talk about harm done to you, 0:11:24.116 --> 0:11:27.356 those people will use it against you. I wonder how 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:31.236 much those words lingered inside of you in that window 0:11:31.236 --> 0:11:34.676 of time before deciding to take part in the hearing. Yeah, 0:11:34.716 --> 0:11:37.596 those words are part of what we grew up with, 0:11:38.276 --> 0:11:40.596 and it's part of what my family had grown up with. 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:43.316 And you know, I was born in nineteen fifty six. 0:11:43.876 --> 0:11:48.356 In nineteen fifty six, their segregation was legal. Schools were 0:11:48.396 --> 0:11:53.716 being desegregated, not quickly, but we didn't have a Civil 0:11:53.796 --> 0:11:59.156 Rights Act of nineteen sixty four, so jobs were segregated, 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:04.116 education was segregated. So it wasn't as though I grew 0:12:04.236 --> 0:12:08.916 up in a time where I didn't see that the 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:13.596 law could do bad as well as to do good. 0:12:14.676 --> 0:12:19.796 But at the same time, I realized that you have 0:12:19.916 --> 0:12:22.276 to take risk for change. I grew up through the 0:12:22.316 --> 0:12:25.716 Civil rights era. You know, it was happening on television, 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:29.196 but what I saw was that people were taking risks, 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:33.796 and for them, the risks meant marching with the risk 0:12:33.876 --> 0:12:38.716 of being beaten up by police. It meant people fighting 0:12:38.756 --> 0:12:42.196 for voting rights, trying to enroll black people to vote 0:12:42.196 --> 0:12:47.716 in Mississippi might die. It meant taking risks, real risk, 0:12:48.116 --> 0:12:51.196 and so I knew that there was risk. Am I 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:54.396 coming forward, but I had this model in the back 0:12:54.436 --> 0:12:57.116 of my head that that's what it takes if you 0:12:57.476 --> 0:13:00.836 want change. I took the risk and still held out 0:13:00.876 --> 0:13:04.236 hope that some change would come. And I believe that 0:13:04.356 --> 0:13:06.796 even though the outcomes of the hearings and the vote 0:13:07.956 --> 0:13:11.236 that it clearly wasn't a change that I would have 0:13:11.436 --> 0:13:14.916 liked to have come. But change can come in different ways. 0:13:15.396 --> 0:13:21.916 That we shouldn't necessarily measure our impact by the change 0:13:21.916 --> 0:13:26.316 that comes out of the official process. And that's a 0:13:26.436 --> 0:13:29.796 lesson from nineteen ninety one, because we know that since 0:13:29.916 --> 0:13:34.756 nineteen ninety one, we have seen change around the issue 0:13:34.756 --> 0:13:39.516 of sexual harassment, around the issue of sexual assault, around 0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:43.316 the issue of many forms of gender violence. We've seen 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:47.756 people from all ways of life coming forward, people of 0:13:47.796 --> 0:13:51.676 all races, people of all genders coming forward talking about 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:54.876 their experiences in the Me Tooth movement. And I like 0:13:54.956 --> 0:13:57.276 to believe that nineteen ninety one was a part of that, 0:13:57.756 --> 0:14:00.076 But I don't want to rest on that. I want 0:14:00.076 --> 0:14:03.036 to hold that moment of risk that you took. On 0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:09.116 October eleventh, nine eleven thirty one am you sat alone 0:14:09.356 --> 0:14:12.116 in your blue linen suit in a long table in 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:14.956 room three twenty five of the Russell Senate Office Building, 0:14:15.556 --> 0:14:20.676 and began your statement in Clarence Thomas's confirmation hearing, Mister Chairman, 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:26.596 Senator Thurma, Members of the Committee. My name is Anita F. Hill, 0:14:27.036 --> 0:14:30.556 and I'm a professor of law at the University of Oklahoma. 0:14:30.716 --> 0:14:33.756 I was born on a farm in Oakmogee County, Oklahoma, 0:14:33.756 --> 0:14:37.916 in nineteen fifty six. I am the youngest of thirteen children. 0:14:38.716 --> 0:14:42.116 When you hear that version of yourself at age thirty five, 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:45.476 what do you here? Let the record show that I'm 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:49.356 looking down now because I'm actually visualizing that. Let me 0:14:49.396 --> 0:14:51.956 just describe what else was going on. Yes, I was 0:14:51.956 --> 0:14:57.556 sitting at that table and I was alone. It wasn't though, 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:00.396 that I was alone in the room. As I looked 0:15:00.396 --> 0:15:03.876 to my right, there was a bank of photographers ready 0:15:03.916 --> 0:15:07.156 to take a photo of any move that I made. 0:15:07.636 --> 0:15:10.316 I remember at one point doing a gesture to my 0:15:10.356 --> 0:15:12.836 face or something, or pulling a picking up a glass 0:15:12.836 --> 0:15:17.676 of water, and flashes, lights flashing, because everyone, I assume, 0:15:17.756 --> 0:15:20.796 thought they were going to capture a moment. I remember, 0:15:20.996 --> 0:15:24.156 of course, the bank of people sitting in front of me, 0:15:24.716 --> 0:15:28.236 the senators, all white, all male, most of them middle 0:15:28.276 --> 0:15:32.676 aged or older, many of whom were entirely incredulous, some 0:15:32.916 --> 0:15:37.756 very hostile, some ambivalent. I think everyone was actually ambivalent. 0:15:37.836 --> 0:15:40.196 Nobody wanted to be there. They didn't want me to 0:15:40.276 --> 0:15:43.156 be there anyway. But I also have a memory of 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:47.716 my family sitting behind me, and my family and friends 0:15:47.716 --> 0:15:51.396 were there, and the people who supported me had come 0:15:51.436 --> 0:15:55.356 together like magic because they believed that I had the 0:15:55.436 --> 0:15:58.996 right to be heard. I really felt that, because my 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:03.596 family was there, because all of those people were there, 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:08.836 that I, in fact did have as close to a 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:13.876 level playing field in that space as anybody could possibly get. 0:16:14.556 --> 0:16:17.036 And as long as I kept that in my head, 0:16:17.556 --> 0:16:20.876 then I was ready to proceed. You know, you mentioned 0:16:21.276 --> 0:16:25.916 some of the incredulous behavior coming from the Senate Judiciary Committee. 0:16:26.356 --> 0:16:29.436 If some of their comments were considered insensitive in nineteen 0:16:29.516 --> 0:16:34.756 ninety one, they're considered horrifying in twenty twenty two. I'm 0:16:34.796 --> 0:16:40.716 thinking now specifically about Senator Howell Heflin, a Democrat from Alabama. 0:16:40.956 --> 0:16:44.396 Here he is during the confirmation hearing on October twelfth 0:16:44.396 --> 0:16:47.596 of nineteen ninety one. I've got to determine what your 0:16:47.636 --> 0:16:52.556 motivation might be. Are you a scorned woman? Do you 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:57.636 have a militant attitude relative to the area of civil rights. 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:01.556 Do you have a modern complex the issue of fantasy 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:06.596 has arisen? Are you interested in writing a book? People 0:17:06.596 --> 0:17:09.436 will say, though, that he was not well understood line 0:17:09.476 --> 0:17:12.276 of questioning. He was trying to sort of do this 0:17:12.916 --> 0:17:15.236 tactic thing to our We'll just put all of these 0:17:15.276 --> 0:17:18.916 out here. I think the real antagonism came from people 0:17:19.116 --> 0:17:24.236 like Arlen Spector, like Alan Simpson, and like Orn Hatch. Yes, 0:17:24.436 --> 0:17:27.516 Howell Heflin, who was a Democrat from the South didn't 0:17:27.556 --> 0:17:31.076 do me any favors in a sense, But the direct 0:17:31.156 --> 0:17:37.316 hostility really came from the really snide and snarky in 0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:43.836 the looks of disdain from those individuals. And then the 0:17:43.876 --> 0:17:47.756 worst of it was also from all of the collective 0:17:47.756 --> 0:17:52.956 decision led by Joe Biden for not bringing on extra witnesses, 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:56.876 not including all of the information. So it was a 0:17:56.956 --> 0:18:02.036 combination of things. It wasn't just one person, It was 0:18:02.156 --> 0:18:06.356 the entire culture of the Senate, and it was their 0:18:06.436 --> 0:18:10.796 lack of understanding and unwillingness to bring and experts who 0:18:10.836 --> 0:18:14.916 could inform them. It was a lack of consideration for 0:18:14.996 --> 0:18:19.236 how this hearing was impacting people around the country. And 0:18:19.316 --> 0:18:23.396 around the globe. There were so many things that were wrong. 0:18:23.876 --> 0:18:26.236 I will tell you this story quickly. You know, I've 0:18:26.236 --> 0:18:30.076 been doing some discussions in a podcasts and radio shows 0:18:30.116 --> 0:18:34.236 about a book that I wrote, and one woman who 0:18:34.716 --> 0:18:37.596 was watching the hearings in nineteen ninety one called up 0:18:37.636 --> 0:18:41.956 the radio station and said, you know, I remember nineteen 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:46.116 ninety one. She said, just hearing your voice makes me 0:18:46.236 --> 0:18:49.436 sick to the stomach now because I recall what you 0:18:49.516 --> 0:18:53.476 went through. So it was all of the above that, 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:57.156 you know, sort of sent people into this like visceral 0:18:57.236 --> 0:19:03.196 response of what is happening here? What are our leaders doing? 0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:07.516 And can this even be possible? Even in nineteen ninety one, 0:19:08.196 --> 0:19:12.476 I think more people today have that feeling. We've moved 0:19:12.956 --> 0:19:17.196 since in nineteen ninety one. As a public we understand 0:19:17.356 --> 0:19:21.916 that we should not have tolerated all of the innuendos, 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:27.036 Howell Hefflin's innuendos and suggestions. We are a better country 0:19:27.036 --> 0:19:28.836 for it, and that's why I think now is the 0:19:28.916 --> 0:19:33.796 time for us to move beyond just understanding the problem 0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:36.916 and being aware that it's in existence, but now we 0:19:36.956 --> 0:19:41.676 should be talking about solutions and repairing the harm that's 0:19:41.716 --> 0:19:44.436 been done. Well, I want to talk about the solution 0:19:44.956 --> 0:19:48.676 to one problem which I think you alluded to from 0:19:48.716 --> 0:19:53.116 Senator Hatch and Senator Simpson, which is this recurrent comment 0:19:53.516 --> 0:19:55.876 if she felt unsafe in the fall of nineteen eighty 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:58.516 one at the Department of Education, why did she go 0:19:58.636 --> 0:20:01.476 with Thomas when he went to the EOC in April 0:20:01.516 --> 0:20:06.796 of nineteen eighty two. Here's Senator Simpson, the Republican from Wyoming, 0:20:07.356 --> 0:20:11.596 pursuing the same line of question. If what you say 0:20:11.676 --> 0:20:15.436 this man said to you occurred, why in God's name 0:20:15.876 --> 0:20:19.716 when he left his position of power or status or 0:20:19.756 --> 0:20:25.556 authority over you and you left it in nineteen eighty three, 0:20:25.636 --> 0:20:29.156 why in God's name would you ever speak to a 0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:33.956 man like that the rest of your life. You describe 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:38.036 some of the psychology of this in your book Believing. 0:20:38.516 --> 0:20:42.756 Can you speak on how that response from Thurman, Hatch 0:20:42.876 --> 0:20:47.356 and Simpson reflects a kind of collective denial of women's 0:20:47.396 --> 0:20:51.036 experiences with abuse and how we may go about fixing 0:20:51.036 --> 0:20:55.516 that problem. Well, first of all, it suggests that the 0:20:55.596 --> 0:20:58.956 behavior is so exceptional that automatically people are going to 0:20:59.036 --> 0:21:02.836 respond and leave it. And the reality is that even 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:06.716 today there are people who are experiencing harassment who are 0:21:06.756 --> 0:21:10.956 continuing to live in those situation and work in those 0:21:10.996 --> 0:21:15.556 situations because they don't feel they have any other real choices. 0:21:16.436 --> 0:21:22.516 I knew that Clarence Thomas was an individual who was 0:21:22.836 --> 0:21:28.996 powerful enough to eliminate my livelihood with a single call. 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:33.476 He could make sure that I did not have a job. 0:21:33.716 --> 0:21:36.796 And I knew that. And at the time that I 0:21:36.876 --> 0:21:39.756 went to the department, I left the Department of Education 0:21:39.796 --> 0:21:42.836 and went to the EOC, some of the behavior had 0:21:42.836 --> 0:21:47.356 actually stopped. It picked up again that part. I don't 0:21:47.356 --> 0:21:50.556 even understand how it picked up again, but I do 0:21:50.756 --> 0:21:55.556 understand that I kept wanting nothing more than the behavior 0:21:55.676 --> 0:22:00.556 to stop. And I knew that leaving would be a 0:22:00.676 --> 0:22:03.916 risk because I would still have to find another job. 0:22:05.156 --> 0:22:09.596 And I knew that leaving wouldn't necessarily mean that I 0:22:09.596 --> 0:22:12.436 would go to another job where there would be no harassment, 0:22:12.996 --> 0:22:16.716 because there is harassment at a lot of jobs. What 0:22:17.036 --> 0:22:22.516 you saw in those senators all very powerful men, all 0:22:22.556 --> 0:22:26.476 of them very wealthy. It would have been in their 0:22:26.516 --> 0:22:30.556 power bubble for so long that they didn't understand vulnerability, 0:22:30.676 --> 0:22:35.156 that they didn't understand any kind of vulnerability, let alone 0:22:35.156 --> 0:22:39.916 the vulnerability of a young twenty five year old working 0:22:40.236 --> 0:22:43.796 in one of our very first professional jobs in a 0:22:43.836 --> 0:22:48.836 place like Washington, DC. And I think that's a huge 0:22:48.916 --> 0:22:54.356 gap between our leadership and where the average worker is 0:22:54.636 --> 0:22:58.956 because I now know the rates of harassment for young 0:22:59.076 --> 0:23:01.796 people people in that age group that I was in 0:23:01.956 --> 0:23:05.156 when I was working for Thomas. I know how high 0:23:05.236 --> 0:23:08.516 the rates are, regardless of whether they moved from a 0:23:08.636 --> 0:23:13.276 job you stay. So I think what is missing the 0:23:13.396 --> 0:23:19.876 conversation about why do women stay? I think what is 0:23:19.956 --> 0:23:25.836 missing is the question of why don't our leaders understand 0:23:25.996 --> 0:23:31.876 the experiences of workers everywhere who are not as powerful 0:23:31.916 --> 0:23:36.196 as they are, who don't have the resources to bounce back, 0:23:36.276 --> 0:23:40.356 whose jobs are not as secure as theirs. Leaders who 0:23:40.396 --> 0:23:44.916 can look at situations from the perspective of the people 0:23:45.476 --> 0:23:51.116 who are marginalized or more vulnerable. We should expect that 0:23:51.236 --> 0:23:56.276 of our representation. If it were truly represented in Congress, 0:23:56.356 --> 0:23:59.596 then we would have had somebody who understood what my 0:23:59.636 --> 0:24:01.636 experience was, and they wouldn't have had to ask the 0:24:01.716 --> 0:24:05.556 questions in the way that they asked them, and maybe 0:24:05.716 --> 0:24:08.316 not even had to ask them at all. And if 0:24:08.316 --> 0:24:10.716 they did have to ask them, they should have had 0:24:10.756 --> 0:24:15.596 an expert help them understand. I'd like to better understand 0:24:15.636 --> 0:24:19.396 your experience, because, as you write in your book, believing 0:24:19.836 --> 0:24:24.476 survivors insulate themselves with their own form of denial by 0:24:24.516 --> 0:24:28.836 adamantly rejecting the notion that they are vulnerable. They develop 0:24:28.956 --> 0:24:33.516 a thick skin to defend themselves against being labeled as snowflakes, 0:24:34.196 --> 0:24:38.316 not tough enough, over sensitive, and in some cases that 0:24:38.356 --> 0:24:42.356 means denying that their own pain exists or that it matters, 0:24:43.116 --> 0:24:47.796 either before, during, or after the hearing. Do you think 0:24:48.476 --> 0:24:52.636 you participated in some of that insulation? Oh, absolutely I did. 0:24:52.876 --> 0:24:56.996 That feeling that I'm describing in the book doesn't come 0:24:57.236 --> 0:25:02.196 from our heads. It comes from the culture. The culture 0:25:02.276 --> 0:25:06.276 that tells us throughout our lives that what we're experiencing 0:25:06.476 --> 0:25:10.356 isn't so bad, That tells us, you know, just get 0:25:10.396 --> 0:25:14.196 over it, or don't make a big deal out of it. 0:25:15.036 --> 0:25:18.196 Those are the voices that we have heard. So when 0:25:18.236 --> 0:25:22.316 we encounter these experiences, that's what comes back to us. 0:25:23.596 --> 0:25:27.356 Give this example of the things that we tell children, 0:25:28.116 --> 0:25:32.516 and there is an enormous amount of harassment of children 0:25:32.676 --> 0:25:36.796 in elementary school, and it can escalate as it moves 0:25:36.916 --> 0:25:39.996 up to high school grades and then of course in college, 0:25:40.916 --> 0:25:44.596 but often where there is a male who is being 0:25:44.596 --> 0:25:49.756 accused of being abusive and a female who is a victim, 0:25:51.116 --> 0:25:54.676 you hear two things. One you hear, well, boys will 0:25:54.716 --> 0:25:58.196 be boys, and that's just what boys do. So in 0:25:58.196 --> 0:26:02.196 that instance, we're telling the victim to accept bad behavior 0:26:02.476 --> 0:26:06.916 because it's inevitable, and we're telling the abuser that bad 0:26:06.956 --> 0:26:12.236 behavior is acceptable. So that's one message. The other message 0:26:12.596 --> 0:26:17.756 is that we tell young girls that boys behave in 0:26:17.796 --> 0:26:22.516 these kinds of abusive and sometimes violent ways because they 0:26:22.676 --> 0:26:27.556 like them. And in that sense, we're telling girls that 0:26:27.636 --> 0:26:32.676 they should welcome a certain level of aggressive, in even 0:26:32.836 --> 0:26:38.316 violent attention because it's a sign of their attractiveness and 0:26:38.356 --> 0:26:41.716 that they should be submissive to it. Now, what we 0:26:41.756 --> 0:26:46.236 are also again telling boys, is that that's the way 0:26:46.276 --> 0:26:51.196 that you show your interest, and it's an acceptable way 0:26:51.356 --> 0:26:55.396 of showing interest. And so we have to deal with 0:26:55.436 --> 0:26:59.396 this as a cultural issue. Instead of telling boys that 0:26:59.436 --> 0:27:02.156 this is, you know, okay, because you know you're a 0:27:02.236 --> 0:27:05.436 boy and you'll just grow out of it, we should 0:27:05.436 --> 0:27:09.356 be teaching more positive ways to interact with folks, that 0:27:09.436 --> 0:27:15.236 aggression is not the answer to social relationships. You know, 0:27:15.316 --> 0:27:19.156 we could talk endlessly just about what's going on in 0:27:19.156 --> 0:27:23.796 our elementary schools. If we don't understand three things. First 0:27:23.796 --> 0:27:28.116 of all, the cultural issues that allow for gender violence 0:27:28.156 --> 0:27:33.236 and aggression. We aren't understanding the systems that are in 0:27:33.316 --> 0:27:36.436 place that are supposed to be protecting people against it, 0:27:36.516 --> 0:27:40.636 but really are allowing it to happen. Systems like what 0:27:40.756 --> 0:27:45.276 happened in nineteen ninety one and twenty eighteen, and institutions 0:27:45.316 --> 0:27:48.316 that support it, like the US Senate, like the Senate 0:27:48.436 --> 0:27:52.876 Judiciary Committee, that support really and sort of house this 0:27:53.116 --> 0:27:57.676 culture in the systems. And so those are the things 0:27:57.676 --> 0:28:00.476 that we have to deal with as a society if 0:28:00.516 --> 0:28:04.276 we're going to get beyond where we are. But right now, 0:28:04.356 --> 0:28:08.196 what we do is we have systems that put the 0:28:08.436 --> 0:28:13.436 entire burden of understanding the problem on the victims, and 0:28:13.556 --> 0:28:17.316 as a society, we don't take responsibility for even understanding 0:28:17.356 --> 0:28:21.716 what they're going through. And that needs to change. But 0:28:22.396 --> 0:28:25.516