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Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. The Bone Wars are going to get a

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Speaker 1: name drop in an upcoming episode, so we have past

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Speaker 1: hosts episode on that feud as Today's Saturday Classic. This

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Speaker 1: was originally a two part episode, but we are running

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Speaker 1: it all together as one, so just roll with any

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Speaker 1: references that you hear to things like in the next

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Speaker 1: episode or last time.

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Speaker 2: Also, there's some discussion of George Peabody in this episode,

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Speaker 2: and his name is pronounced differently in different regions and

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Speaker 2: the Northeast people mostly say Peabody like I just said it,

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Speaker 2: but in a lot of the rest of the US,

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Speaker 2: it's Peabody like it's spelled, and those different pronunciations trickle

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Speaker 2: down to all the various institutions named after him, much

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Speaker 2: like Haldcab County, Georgia and Dekyle, Illinois are pronounced differently

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Speaker 2: even though they're named after the same person. This episode

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Speaker 2: was from host Sarah and Deblina and it originally came

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Speaker 2: out December thirty first, twenty twelve and January ninth, twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Dablina Chokerborny and

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Speaker 3: I'm Sarah Dowdie and we have had a lot of

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Speaker 3: fun this year. I've had a lot of fun at

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Speaker 3: least covering scientific rivalries. We've talked about Horace Wells and

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Speaker 3: the Gas War, and of course Tesla and Edison and

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Speaker 3: the War of the Currents. That was one that was

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Speaker 3: really popular because it was much anticipated and requested beforehand.

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Speaker 4: It stirred up a little rivalry on our Facebook page,

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Speaker 4: it did, but hell, it's got a lot of strong support.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about to say the rivalries out there,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, Tesla is definitely kind of a favorite these days,

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Speaker 3: I would say so. Those episodes and the Mary Anning

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Speaker 3: Princess of Paleontology episode that we did earlier this year,

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Speaker 3: got listeners clamoring for a podcast on another scientific war,

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Speaker 3: one about two nineteenth century paleontologists, Edward Drinker Cope and

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Speaker 3: oth Neil Charles Marsh. Now, Cope and Marsh duped it

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Speaker 3: out over America's fossil deposits during a time when the

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Speaker 3: field of paleontology was still pretty new. Their race to

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Speaker 3: find fossils, named the species that they belonged to, and

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Speaker 3: publish their findings about all of this came to be

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Speaker 3: known by many names, including the Great Dinosaur Feud, the

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Speaker 3: Dinosaur Rush, and the Bone Wars.

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Speaker 4: Our title today, And they really made an impact too.

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Speaker 4: Prior to their work, there were only nine known species

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Speaker 4: of North American dinosaurs, and these two men's efforts led

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Speaker 4: to the classification of one hundred and thirty six new species.

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Speaker 4: But Cope and Marsh's feud also resulted in a lot

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Speaker 4: more than just the advancement of their field. It was

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Speaker 4: kind of an embarrassment too. It was a pretty dark

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Speaker 4: time in a lot of ways. It ended up damaging

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Speaker 4: both of their reputations and maybe even hindered scientific progress

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Speaker 4: in some respect.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so much so that it's interesting their feud has

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Speaker 3: been regarded, quote as a kind of scientific indiscretion, says

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Speaker 3: James Pennic in an article in American Heritage. So we're

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Speaker 3: going to kind of explore that a little bit, but

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Speaker 3: in two parts. Yes we are in two parts. But

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Speaker 3: to understand why these guys came to be at such odds,

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Speaker 3: we first need to discuss a little bit about their

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Speaker 3: backgrounds and how they came to be in their field

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Speaker 3: in the first place. Because they both took very different

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Speaker 3: paths to end up basically in the same competition.

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Speaker 4: So we'll start with Marsh. He's the elder of the two.

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Speaker 4: Athaniel Charles Marsh was born October twenty ninth, eighteen thirty one,

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Speaker 4: in Lockport, New York. His father was very poor. He

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Speaker 4: was a farmer, and even though Marsh showed a lot

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Speaker 4: of interest in science from a young age, his father

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Speaker 4: only intended him to take over the family farm someday.

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Speaker 4: But fortunately for Marsh, he had a very influential uncle.

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Speaker 4: His mother, who had died when he was only three

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Speaker 4: years old, was the sister of the banker philanthropist George Peabody.

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Speaker 3: A much beloved sister.

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Speaker 4: Yes luckily luckily so of course, Peabody had one of

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Speaker 4: the largest personal fortunes in the world, according to Pennock's article,

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Speaker 4: and it was a good person to have, especially if

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Speaker 4: Marsh's father was kind of struggling with his work.

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Speaker 3: So around age twenty one, Marsh inherited some money from

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Speaker 3: his uncle that had been meant for his mother's dowry,

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Speaker 3: and he used this money to attend prep school at

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Speaker 3: Phillips Academy. And of course, at twenty one, he was

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Speaker 3: much older than the other kids there.

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Speaker 4: So you think that pewbody could have advanced him the

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Speaker 4: money for the education.

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Speaker 3: Further ahead of time. Yeah, you would hope so, But

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Speaker 3: that wasn't the case. That didn't happen. So according to

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Speaker 3: an article by Tom Huntington in American History, his peers

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Speaker 3: at prep school gave him nicknames like Daddy and Captain,

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Speaker 3: which you would think would just be mortifying, but he

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Speaker 3: didn't seem to care, or if he did, he didn't

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Speaker 3: let it stop him. He graduated as valedictorian and then

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Speaker 3: convinced his uncle to pay to send him to Yale College,

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Speaker 3: where he earned an undergraduate degree in eighteen sixty. He

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Speaker 3: then went on to you earn a master's degree from

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Speaker 3: Yale Sheffield School of Science a couple years later.

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Speaker 4: And after that he spent a little bit of time

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Speaker 4: studying in Europe and convinced uncle Peabody to donate some

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Speaker 4: more money, this time to Yale for a Museum of

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Speaker 4: Natural Sciences. And it was kind of a hard sell

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Speaker 4: because Peabody preferred Harvard. He would have preferred to have

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Speaker 4: given his money to Harvard, but marsh did get his

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Speaker 4: way in the end, and he was appointed to run

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Speaker 4: the Museum as curator and became a professor of paleontology

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Speaker 4: at Yale. So if your uncle does pony f the money,

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Speaker 4: it's you're a shoot way to get a job. Ultimately, though,

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Speaker 4: he was the first professor of paleontology in North America

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Speaker 4: according to Huntington's article, so a big step in his career.

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Speaker 3: So moving on to Cope. Unlike marsh Edward Drinker, Cope

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Speaker 3: came from a wealthy Quaker family, so definitely a bit

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Speaker 3: of a brighter start in life. He was born July

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Speaker 3: twenty eighth, eighteen forty in Philadelphia, so nine years after Marsh,

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Speaker 3: and he also showed a really early interest in science.

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Speaker 3: He actually recorded his impressions of the fossils of an

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Speaker 3: extinct marine reptile called Ichthyosaurus, which I think we talked

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Speaker 3: about a little bit in the Marry Manning episode. He

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Speaker 3: recorded his impressions of this when he was only six

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Speaker 3: years old.

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Speaker 4: So he was like you du Blaina playing fossil hunter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was probably a little more on

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Speaker 3: top of it than I was. But when he was

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Speaker 3: eighteen he also published a scientific paper on salamanders, and

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Speaker 3: another thing that set Cope apart from Marsh, though, is

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Speaker 3: that he didn't get a lot in the way of

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Speaker 3: a formal education, which is kind of surprising considering he

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Speaker 3: was so into science at an early age. He studied

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Speaker 3: for about a year at the University of Pennsylvania, spent

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Speaker 3: some time studying the herpetology collections of the Smithsonian, and

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Speaker 3: he worked as a researcher at the Academy of Natural

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Speaker 3: Sciences in Philadelphia, but definitely didn't take that sort of

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Speaker 3: traditional academic path that Marsh took.

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Speaker 4: He did take a little tour through Europe eventually, though,

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Speaker 4: to further his education. To to keep Cope from becoming

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Speaker 4: involved in the Civil War, his father sent him abroad

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Speaker 4: to study natural history in eighteen sixty three and he

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Speaker 4: ended up for a time at Berlin University in Germany,

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Speaker 4: and coincidentally, Marsh was there at the same time, and

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Speaker 4: the two guys did become acquainted, and even though it

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Speaker 4: seems really unbelievable, later they were actually friendly with each

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Speaker 4: other and they continued their friendship stateside and after they

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Speaker 4: returned home, even though their lives did take somewhat different paths.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Marsh of course came back and he had this

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Speaker 3: nice cush position at Yale to come into and Cope

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Speaker 3: came back to marry his cousin Annie Pern, and he

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Speaker 3: became a professor of zoology and botany at Haverford College

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Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania. That position, however, was pretty short lived. Cope

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Speaker 3: left it in eighteen sixty seven to go study a

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Speaker 3: big deposit of dinosaur fossils found in New Jersey. So

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Speaker 3: just a little background on the study of dinosaurs up

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Speaker 3: to this point. According to Huntington's article, a British scientist

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Speaker 3: named Richard Owen had coined the term dinosaur in eighteen

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Speaker 3: forty one, but he had described them as these quote

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Speaker 3: low slung lizard like creatures. Joseph Ldey's study of the

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Speaker 3: first US dinosaur find and hadden Field, New Jersey in

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Speaker 3: eighteen fifty eight totally changed this perception. Lighty worked with

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Speaker 3: the bones of a Hadrosaurus and showed that it would

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Speaker 3: have walked erect on two legs instead of on all

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Speaker 3: fours like a lizard like most people thought, and that

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Speaker 3: first Hadrosaurus, which Lighty helped reconstruct, became the first complete

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Speaker 3: dinosaur skeleton to be displayed for the public. According to

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Speaker 3: PBS dot Org.

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Speaker 4: Well and Lighty had a connection to one of these guys,

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Speaker 4: d didn't he He did.

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Speaker 3: He had been Cope's anatomy professor at the University of

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Speaker 3: Pennsylvania and was also his mentor at the Academy of

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Speaker 3: Natural Sciences, So probably someone that Cope looked up to

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Speaker 3: and learned from.

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Speaker 4: Yeahf way, if you're only going to do one year

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Speaker 4: at penn it was good even met this guy. But

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Speaker 4: ultimately Cope did go to New Jersey where this fossil

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Speaker 4: quarry was, and he participated in several excavations there. So

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Speaker 4: at this point, as we mentioned, Cope and Marsh were

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Speaker 4: still friendly with each other, enough so that in eighteen

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Speaker 4: sixty seven Cope even named an amphibian fossil Toni's Marshye

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Speaker 4: after Marsh. I mean, that's a pretty nice thing to

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Speaker 4: do for your fellow scientist, I would say. He also

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Speaker 4: spent a week or so in eighteen sixty eight showing

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Speaker 4: Marsh around the fossil quarry in New Jersey where he

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Speaker 4: was working, pointing out his various collection sites, really being

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Speaker 4: open about his work with Marsh. Something important to remember

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Speaker 4: later on that year too, Marsh wasn't just gonna take

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Speaker 4: this gift of a dinosaur name and let it go.

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Speaker 4: He returned the naming compliment, and, according to PBS dot org,

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Speaker 4: gave a quote new and gigantic serpent from the tertiary

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Speaker 4: of New Jersey, the name Mosesaurus copianus. That just your

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Speaker 4: didn't count for a whole lot in the long run,

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Speaker 4: but still it's a gesture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So just to give you a little background of

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Speaker 3: why it might not have been as sweet a gesture

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Speaker 3: as it seemed. Cope later found out that Marsh had

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Speaker 3: gone behind his back and made a deal with the

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Speaker 3: New Jersey quarry owner that ensured that all of the

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Speaker 3: fossils that were found there would go directly to Marsh first,

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Speaker 3: so basically cutting Cope out of the loop, cut him

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Speaker 3: out of the process.

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Speaker 4: Cope is taking him around this place, showing off what

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Speaker 4: he's working on, giving them the tour.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Marsh supposedly, I guess, being totally open about it,

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Speaker 3: not assuming that Marsh is going to backstab him, but

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Speaker 3: that's exactly what happens. So Cope was kind of hoodwinked

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Speaker 3: by this. In the same year, in eighteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 3: something else happened in their relationship. In Cope and Marsha's relationship.

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Speaker 3: Cope was in a big hurry to publish his findings

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Speaker 3: on a new species of pleaseosaur, the fossilized bones of

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Speaker 3: which had been shipped to him by an Army surgeon

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Speaker 3: from Kansas, And this is how they received their their fossils.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes this reminded me a little bit of the Mary

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Speaker 4: Anning episode, where, of course the earlier situation we were

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Speaker 4: describing of Cope going to the dig side and looking

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Speaker 4: himself sounds more like what you'd expect, but just having

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Speaker 4: bone shipped to you from somebody else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we talk about we'll talk about the bone

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Speaker 3: collectors and so forth a little more in part two

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Speaker 3: of this, but this sort of introduces that idea. But anyway,

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Speaker 3: Cope he got these bones. He called this previously unknown

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Speaker 3: pleasiosaur Elasmosaurus. Unfortunately, though, when Cope was reconstructing the Elasmosaurus skeleton,

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Speaker 3: he made a pretty major error. He reversed all of

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Speaker 3: the vertebrae and put its head on its tail instead

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Speaker 3: of on the end of its neck.

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Speaker 4: It's pretty bad and guests who noticed. Marsh paid a

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Speaker 4: visit to the Academy of Natural Sciences to check out

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Speaker 4: Cope's work, and of course he did not hesitate to

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Speaker 4: point out this error, and he's even said to have

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Speaker 4: been the first person two pointed out to Cope. Cope

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Speaker 4: called in Joseph Lady to take another look and offer

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Speaker 4: up a second opinion. He confirmed the mistake, and actually,

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Speaker 4: upon looking at the skeleton, Lady removed the head and

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Speaker 4: placed on reversed it with what Cope had originally thought

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Speaker 4: was the tale. So pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Lady also discussed this error at the next

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Speaker 3: meeting of the Academy of Natural Sciences. So you can

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Speaker 3: imagine it's just like embarrassment on top of embarrassment. First

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Speaker 3: he's embarrassedor yes, he's embarrassed in front of his colleague,

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Speaker 3: then he's embarrassed in front of his mentor, and then

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Speaker 3: at the Academy of Natural Sciences in front of this

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Speaker 3: entire meeting of scientists. And of course also it's in publication.

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Speaker 3: As we mentioned before, it's already out there in the

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Speaker 3: Journal of the American Philosophical Society. They had already published

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Speaker 3: his findings, including a drawing of this incorrect restoration. So

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Speaker 3: Cope frantically starts to try to buy back every copy

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Speaker 3: of the publication that he could find. But this incident,

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Speaker 3: combined with Marsh's shady dealings regarding the New Jersey quarry,

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Speaker 3: really seemed to have kicked off the feud between the two,

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Speaker 3: or at least started the rift and bad feelings between them.

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Speaker 3: But if you really look at which of these incidents

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Speaker 3: had more to do with the bad feelings between them,

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Speaker 3: it really depends on which one of them that you asked,

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Speaker 3: I mean, Cope would probably say it had more to

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Speaker 3: do with what happened in New Jerseyscil issue, yes, and

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Speaker 3: Marsh would say that he was just embarrassed and mad

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Speaker 3: that he had pointed out his mistake.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, Marsh even later wrote of the incident and said

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Speaker 4: that it was Cope's quote, wounded vanity that had received

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Speaker 4: a shock from which it never recovered, and he has

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Speaker 4: since been my bitter enemy. So yeah, that's Marsh saying, Oh,

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Speaker 4: Cope just couldn't handle being wrong, essentially. He also later

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Speaker 4: admitted that while he initially did return his copy of

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Speaker 4: the publication to Cope as Cope had requested, trying to

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Speaker 4: hoard all these incorrect copies, he Marche later sought out

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Speaker 4: and bought two additional copies, which he did hang on

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Speaker 4: to as if he wanted to have them as some

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Speaker 4: kind of ammunition. Seems like something that your buddy wouldn't

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Speaker 4: do you.

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Speaker 3: No, only your most bitter enemy would do that, or

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Speaker 3: at least you would hope. But this is a great

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Speaker 3: example of how Cope's big rush to get things published

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Speaker 3: sometimes resulted in him making errors. But of course marsh

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Speaker 3: although he was said to be very meticulous, wasn't immune

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Speaker 3: to this either. He did make his share of mistakes.

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Speaker 3: Just one example, he once put a Chemerosaurus skull on

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Speaker 3: the skeleton of an Apatosaurus, which, according to an article

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Speaker 3: by Renee Clary, James Wandersea, and Amy Carpinelli in Science Scope,

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Speaker 3: was quote one of the longest lasting mistakes of paleontology.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to discuss at least one of his

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Speaker 3: other major errors later on too. But that's just to

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Speaker 3: give you one example.

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Speaker 4: And so, of course, in some ways, you know, we've

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Speaker 4: been talking about this rush that both of the men

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Speaker 4: were constantly under. These errors were a direct result of

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Speaker 4: competition between them, because not only were they trying to

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Speaker 4: get their discoveries out there quickly, because the naming rights

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Speaker 4: were given to whoever published a fine first. They were

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Speaker 4: trying specifically to beat each other to the punch. I mean,

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Speaker 4: that's not going to make great meticulous work in the end,

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Speaker 4: most likely, right.

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Speaker 3: The feud between Cope and Marsh really began in earnest

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Speaker 3: in the eighteen seventies, when they both headed west to

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Speaker 3: hunt for fossils. Marsh's first expedition was in eighteen seventy,

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Speaker 3: and it was sponsored by Yale, and he had this

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Speaker 3: whole entourage with them, including about a dozen Yale students

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Speaker 3: and even an army escort that they acquired once they'd

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Speaker 3: made it to what's now the Midwest, and they explored Kansas, Wyoming,

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Speaker 3: and Utah, and according to Huntingson's article, at one point

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Speaker 3: they even had buffalo Bill Cody as their guide. But

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Speaker 3: by the time they got back to Ye after that

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Speaker 3: first trip, they had thirty six boxes of specimens, including

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Speaker 3: bone fragments from a pterodactyl wing when no pterodactyl had

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Speaker 3: been discovered before, and Marsh estimated that this giant flying

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Speaker 3: reptile would have had a wingspan of twenty feet. So

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Speaker 3: Cope and Marsh when they really started to butt heads

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Speaker 3: was around eighteen seventy two, when Cope started exploring Wyoming

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Speaker 3: Territory looking for fossils there. Huntington writes that Marsh was

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Speaker 3: really angry about this because he considered the area his turf.

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Speaker 3: I guess because he'd already hunted four fossils around there.

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Speaker 4: Taste of his own medicine there, I have to say,

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Speaker 4: but this ultimately kicked off a really nasty sort of

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Speaker 4: letter writing campaign between the two. It reminds me of

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Speaker 4: the pamphlet Wars we sometimes discuss some podcasts, but there

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Speaker 4: were tactics were not just limited towards either. They employed

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Speaker 4: everything from espionage to theft in their battle to be

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Speaker 4: known as the best in the field, and I think

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Speaker 4: to a certain extent to make sure the other guy

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Speaker 4: was number two to or even lower. So we're gonna

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Speaker 4: be discussing examples of some of these tactics in the

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Speaker 4: next episode, as well as what happens when Cope and

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Speaker 4: Marsh finally take their fight to what turned out to

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Speaker 4: be the ultimate battleground for them. And it was not

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Speaker 4: some fossil ground, it was Washington.

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Speaker 3: D C. Yeah, so lots of interesting things to cover

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Speaker 3: in part two, including I think we'll talk a little

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Speaker 3: bit more just about their personalities too, in their personal lives,

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Speaker 3: because I think it gives some interesting insight as to

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Speaker 3: maybe some more of the root of the animosity. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily all about dinosaur bones. Not all about it, no,

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Speaker 3: but a lot, a lot, yes, that's for sure.

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Speaker 4: When we left them off, Cope and Marsh had just

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Speaker 4: started to look west in search of fossils. In this episode, though,

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Speaker 4: we're gonna be talking a bit about what they found

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Speaker 4: out west and the sometimes shady tactics that they employed

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Speaker 4: to be the first to get credit for their discoveries.

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Speaker 4: We're also going to take a look at the more

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Speaker 4: official stage on which their battle played out and where

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Speaker 4: it got truly truly nasty. But first we want to

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Speaker 4: take a closer look at who these guys were, because

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Speaker 4: it might help provide at least a little more insight

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Speaker 4: as to why they were destined to clash in the

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Speaker 4: first place, the clash of the dinosaur hunters.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we've already talked about the differences between Cope

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Speaker 3: and Marsh's socioeconomic backgrounds and their educational training, which is

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Speaker 3: kind of where it all started. And if you'll recall,

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Speaker 3: Marsh was poor raised on a farm until his uncle

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Speaker 3: George Peabody stepped in with the financial support that marsh

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Speaker 3: needed to go to prep school and then onto Yale

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Speaker 3: and its Peabody's generous donation at Marsha's request. That also

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Speaker 3: led to the creation of a Museum of Natural Sciences

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Speaker 3: at Yale, which was a move that then helped secure

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Speaker 3: marshall professorship there and it created a great resource for

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Speaker 3: him while he was hunting for fossils, so.

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Speaker 4: He had Yale in his corner. But all of Peabody's

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Speaker 4: support did, unfortunately come with a catch. According to an

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Speaker 4: article by James Pennock in American Heritage, it turned out

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Speaker 4: that Uncle George had a certain stipulation for anyone named

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Speaker 4: in his will, and that stipulation involved marriage. When he

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Speaker 4: was twenty five in a freshman at Yale, marsh received

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Speaker 4: a letter from his aunt indicating this stipulation, and it

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Speaker 4: read quote, if any of his nephews should in any

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Speaker 4: way conduct himself as to disgrace themselves and him or

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Speaker 4: now mind this, should any of them form a marriage

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Speaker 4: connection or even get engaged before they had the means

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Speaker 4: of supporting a family, they should never have a cent

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Speaker 4: of his money. He desired me to communicate this to

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Speaker 4: all his nephews.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and apparently there was one other nephew who had

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Speaker 3: gotten cut out of the will for marrying too soon,

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Speaker 3: So Peabody was serious about that.

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Speaker 4: Put to the test.

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Speaker 3: By the time Marsh was financially independent, he was well

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Speaker 3: into his thirties, so Penneck kind of suggests maybe he

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Speaker 3: was too set in his ways to marry at that point,

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Speaker 3: or you know, just wasn't inclined to do so, or

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Speaker 3: just that he had.

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Speaker 4: This strange break on his life until he could be

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Speaker 4: financially independent.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: He had some other friendly sort of issues though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just basically the issue was that he didn't have

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Speaker 3: many friends. According to an article by Tom Huntington in

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Speaker 3: American History, people found Marsh to be quote autocratic and petty,

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Speaker 3: and accused him of taking credit for the work of

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Speaker 3: his assistance and for falling behind on paying his employees,

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Speaker 3: never a good move. At one of his clubs, they

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Speaker 3: apparently nicknamed him quote the Great dismal Swamp.

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Speaker 4: That's a bad sign.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't do well with the nicknames.

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Speaker 2: No, he really.

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Speaker 4: Doesn't, except for the bone Wars. That one is a

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Speaker 4: pretty great nickname for his rivalry. Cope, on the other hand,

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Speaker 4: came from a very different kind of background, which we

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Speaker 4: discussed on the last podcast. It was a more privileged beginning,

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Speaker 4: if you remember in the last episode. Though he didn't

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Speaker 4: have a lot of formal education. He was self taught,

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Speaker 4: and he was a part of this whole gentleman's world

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Speaker 4: of natural science that existed in the nineteenth century. Dublina

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Speaker 4: and I were talking about it earlier, how it just

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Speaker 4: fascinates us that gentlemen would choose to pursue science in

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Speaker 4: some form, and.

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Speaker 3: There's something very romantic about it. I mean, we both

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Speaker 3: talked about how it just there's something very ideal about it.

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Speaker 4: A little troubling too, because it ends up with you

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Speaker 4: end up with personal disputes like this. But Cope was

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Speaker 4: considered to be very brilliant, considered to be a prodigy,

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Speaker 4: and his life was also very different from Marsh's. On

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Speaker 4: a personal level too. We mentioned that he was married,

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Speaker 4: he had a wife, he had a daughter named Julia.

403
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Speaker 4: Unlike Marsh, too, Cope was pretty charming. The friends he

404
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Speaker 4: had seemed to really like him, really care for him,

405
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Speaker 4: although they would agree that he could kind of be arrogant.

406
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Speaker 4: Sometimes he could be quick tempered. According to Huntington's article,

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Speaker 4: paleontologist William Berryman Scott, who took Cope's side in the

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Speaker 4: war with Marsh instead of Cope quote, despite his greatness

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Speaker 4: in some measure, indeed because of it, he had some

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Speaker 4: unfortunate personal peculiarities. Was pugnacious and quarrelsome and made many enemies,

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Speaker 4: so many enemies, many friends, no friends on the other side,

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Speaker 4: kind of unusual guys.

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Speaker 3: So when we last left off with our story, Cope

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Speaker 3: had kind of broken the mold of those gentlemen naturalists

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Speaker 3: that we were describing. They usually waited for things to

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Speaker 3: be sent to them to study. They didn't actually go

417
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Speaker 3: out on these great expeditions.

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Speaker 4: They'd limit their study to the comfort of their own

419
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Speaker 4: home exactly.

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Speaker 3: And Cope, like Marsh, went out to hunt fossils, but

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Speaker 3: he had a different way of traveling from Marsh. We

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Speaker 3: mentioned how Marsh went out with the entourage and had

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Speaker 3: guides and a military escort. Cope did not have a

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Speaker 3: resource like Yale behind him, so he didn't have all

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Speaker 3: these graduate assistants to come with him. So he often

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Speaker 3: put together teams for his expeditions when he got wherever

427
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Speaker 3: he was going. Also, since Cope was a Quaker, he

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Speaker 3: rarely used a military escort because he was a pacifist,

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Speaker 3: and he pretty much refused to carry a revolver, which

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Speaker 3: a lot of people thought was crazy because of the

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Speaker 3: thread of hostile Native American tribes out west. Among other things, yeah, bandits, highwaymen,

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Speaker 3: all sorts of risks he might come across, not to

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Speaker 3: mention just.

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Speaker 4: The wildlife potentially exactly. Cope did things his way, though,

435
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 4: and he was very tough about it. Panic relates how

436
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 4: Cope would read the Bible every night, even when he

437
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 4: was out in the field, and if others in his

438
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 4: camp would would laugh at him, he'd sort of stare

439
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 4: them down until they would just straighten up, you know,

440
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 4: stop laughing, stop making fun of him. Cope and Marsh

441
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 4: did have successes in the field that we've kind of

442
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 4: described the way they carried about their expeditions, But they

443
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 4: did both have successes, though Marsh, of course, with his

444
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 4: official Yale connection and his peabody inheritance at his disposal,

445
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 4: did have more resources to throw at the situation. However,

446
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 4: both to some extent, Cope especially, were reliant on being

447
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 4: associated with one of several geological surveys of the West

448
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: that were going on at the time. It was kind

449
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 4: of an official backing almost Yeah.

450
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: Being involved with these surveys provided economic support for their

451
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: work and a vehicle for publishing their findings, and this

452
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: becomes important later in our story as well. So just

453
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 3: kind of remember that. We talked a little in the

454
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: last podcast also about how Martian Cope started going at

455
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 3: each other mostly by way of letters after their initial

456
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 3: expeditions out west, when they started really competing in a

457
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: sense for fossil finds out there. But they really launched

458
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 3: into full scale warfare in eighteen seventy seven when Arthur Lakes,

459
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 3: who was a mining teacher, wrote to Marsh saying that

460
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 3: he'd discovered some fossils near Morris and Colorado. Now Marsh

461
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: didn't reply, so Lake's said, well, okay, I want to

462
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: do something with these, So he sent some samples to Cope.

463
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: When Marsh heard that, though he sent Lakes some cash

464
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 3: to win them over, he was like, well, I don't

465
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 3: want Cope to get these. After that, after getting that cash,

466
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 3: Lakes asked Cope to please send back his samples so

467
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 3: that he could work with Marsh, and according to Huntington,

468
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 3: part of what Marsh found among Lake's initial find were

469
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: the remains the first remains of a Stegosaurus.

470
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 4: Around the time. The same time, too, another teacher named O. W.

471
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 4: Lucas also found some fossils in Colorado. He contacted Cope

472
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 4: first about it, and Cope jumped at the chance to

473
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 4: check out the fossils. Overall, according to Huntington, Cope's Colorado

474
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 4: finds actually turn out to be better than Marsh's because

475
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 4: they were bigger and they could be taken out of

476
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 4: the surrounding raw without breaking them. Marsh, of course, did

477
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: come out on top in other situations. In the summer

478
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 4: of eighteen seventy seven, for example, two railway workers in Como,

479
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 4: Wyoming named William Reid and W. E. Carlin contacted Marsh

480
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: about some fossils that they had discovered as a site

481
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 4: known as Como Bluff, and Marsh of course sent his

482
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: bone collectors out there. They ended up gathering thirty tons

483
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 4: of fossils from the Jurassic Age and shipped all the

484
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 4: stuff back to Marsh at Yale. And it was very

485
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 4: high quality, you know, large bones. It was well preserved.

486
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 4: The result of Marsh's investigation of this fine, too, really

487
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: speaks to how high quality it was. He discovered several

488
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 4: new species and named the Alosaurus, the Diplodocus, the Campedsaurus,

489
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 4: all from those Como Bluff finds.

490
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 3: And also notably he named the Brontosaurus out of those fines,

491
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: one of the world's best known dinosaurs and Sarah's favorite dinosaur.

492
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 3: I should mention interesting, though, that the naming of Brontosaurus

493
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 3: is actually considered one of Marsh's biggest mistakes. After he died,

494
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 3: scientists realized that the creature Marsh had named Brontosaurus was

495
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 3: just another example of a dinosaur Marsh had already named

496
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 3: the Patosaurus, so the designation Brontosaurus was taken away. Obviously,

497
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 3: though that's kind of an endurance. And yes, so it's

498
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 3: probably clear by now that Cope and Marsh often weren't

499
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: the ones actually digging in the ground, collecting fossils, or

500
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: even supervising digs themselves, Hence all the talk of sending

501
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: bones back east to them. They accomplished a lot of

502
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 3: what they did through the help of bone collectors. Cope

503
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 3: and Marsh would occasionally visit the dig sites, but the

504
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 3: fossil collectors were sort of the foot soldiers in this

505
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 3: battle that they were waging against each other.

506
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: Too. There really was a lot of taking sides. Reid

507
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: took Marsh's side and became a major collector for him,

508
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 4: while Carlin switched over to Cope side. Lucas remained on

509
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 4: Cope side while Lake's stuck with Marsh. I was surprised

510
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 4: by Lucas, I think since he sort of got slighted

511
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 4: at the beginning by Marsh. But I guess I was

512
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 4: might have been better.

513
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that means a lot.

514
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 4: It does. Occasionally though, according to Huntington, again, the two

515
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 4: paleontologists would try to woo each other's collectors away from

516
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 4: the other. I don't know if they were tempting them

517
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 4: with better publication of the works or money all the time.

518
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: But that wasn't the most extreme of the tactics used

519
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: in this war. I mean that already sounds a little

520
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 4: bit dicey. But they also spied on each other. Marsh

521
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 4: at least would even communicate in code with his collectors

522
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 4: to try to keep Cope from figuring out what he

523
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 4: was up to. What his bone collectors were up to.

524
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 4: They referred to Cope as Jones in this Sneaky Correspondence,

525
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 4: And one of Marsh's guys was so paranoid about Cope

526
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 4: spying on him that when a man showed up at

527
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 4: their camp one day in eighteen seventy eight, he asked

528
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: for a handwriting sample in case it was Cope in disguise.

529
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 4: He was so suspicious.

530
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: So I guess they were right to worry, though, because

531
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: Cope really did charm his way into one of Marsha's

532
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: camps in eighteen seventy nine, probably to woo some team

533
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 3: members over to his side, or just to steal information outright.

534
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 3: But the funny thing was Marsha's men really liked Cope.

535
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: According to Huntington's article, Lakes later wrote of the incident

536
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: that Cope quote entertained his party by singing comic songs

537
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 3: with a refrain at the end, like the howl of Coyote,

538
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: and Lakes went on to observe quote. I must say

539
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: that when I saw of him, I liked very much.

540
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: His manner is so affable in his conversation, very agreeable.

541
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 3: I only wish I could feel sure he had a

542
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 3: sound reputation for honesty.

543
00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 4: Maybe not Yeah. According to an article by Renee Clary,

544
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 4: James Wandersey, and Amy Capernellian Science Scope. Marsh was said

545
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 4: to have planted unrelated fossils at some of Cope's dig

546
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: sites to slow down his progress too. So it's not

547
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 4: just invading the other guy's camp and.

548
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 3: A reputation for honesty there.

549
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that takes it to another level, that

550
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 4: does tampering with the science essentially.

551
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and that was the really shocking part

552
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: of Cope and Marsh's tactics is that they just they

553
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: went beyond trying to harm and hinder each other in

554
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: their efforts. They actually may have harmed the field itself

555
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: or maybe even hindered scientific progress in some cases. For example,

556
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: if Marsh's guy read unearthed more bones than he could use,

557
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: he smashed them so that Carlin couldn't get to them.

558
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 4: Marsh is also said to have ordered that certain sites

559
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 4: be blown up dynamite to keep COPE from getting to

560
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 4: the fossils, although, according to a two thousand and eight

561
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 4: article by Jean Viev Rujuski, at least when it comes

562
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 4: to one of the sites that was supposedly blown up,

563
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: Krey ten, which is in Morrison, Colorado, those allegations are false.

564
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: Some researchers found Corey ten in two thousand and two

565
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: using Lake's field notes and determined that Lakes probably just

566
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 4: shoved some dirt in there and then said he dynamited

567
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 4: it to discourage the competition from checking it out. The

568
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 4: way I sort of read that, though, is maybe he

569
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 4: had his history of dynamiting things already established. Though if

570
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 4: people were going to believe.

571
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: That could be well. It may have been out west

572
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: that some of the more colorful war tactics were used

573
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: by these two. As we hinted in the previous episode,

574
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: the really decisive battleground for the Bone Wars turned out

575
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: to be Washington, DC. And this is where Marsh really

576
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: pulled ahead, because even though he wasn't winning any popularity contests,

577
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: he was much savvier when it came to politics, and

578
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: Cope was the first development that really set the ball

579
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: rolling for Marsh had to do with those surveys out

580
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 3: west that we talked about earlier in the late eighteen

581
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: seventies early eighteen eighties or so, Congress upon the advice

582
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: of the National Academy of Sciences, which by the way,

583
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: was an organization which Marsh had become president of decided

584
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 3: to do away with all of the existing competing geological

585
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: surveys and create just one national geological survey to replace them.

586
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: They decided to call it the United States Geological Survey,

587
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 4: and the former head of one of the defunct surveys

588
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 4: Marsh had been affiliated with, was named as the director.

589
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 4: So soon Marsh became the official vertebrate paleontologist of the

590
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 4: United States Geological Survey. Not too surprising there. If he's

591
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 4: the head of the National Academy of Sciences already, he

592
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 4: knows the new head of the Geological Survey. I mean,

593
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 4: he was certainly at this point winning the feud in

594
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 4: terms of political clout in the science world, in terms

595
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 4: of how his career was progressing. When Cope lost that

596
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 4: government support, it really devastated his research too, and his

597
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: publication efforts. He just didn't have any funding anymore. In

598
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: his personal wealth, which he had also put toward his

599
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 4: efforts in paleontology over all these years, was starting to

600
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 4: dry up. Cope, looking for a get rich quick sort

601
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 4: of scheme, tried to make up for it by investing

602
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 4: in a silver mine in New Mexico, but that turned

603
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 4: out to be a bust. He lost everything and it

604
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 4: really seemed at this point that there was a clear

605
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 4: winner and loser in this feud.

606
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: But that didn't seem to be enough for Mars. He

607
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 3: took things a step further and tried to have Cope's

608
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 3: fossils confiscated, claiming that they had been collected with government funds.

609
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: Cope completely denied this. He said that he had used

610
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: his own money to collect the fossils. And then he

611
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 3: decided to fight back against Marsh in the only way

612
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: that he could at that point, and that was through

613
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: the press. He approached a writer for the New York

614
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 3: Herald and told that writer basically every bad thing that

615
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: he had ever thought or heard about Marsh, and this

616
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: kicked off a very public, very brutal battle of words

617
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: between Cope and Marsh that was splashed all over the

618
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 3: pages of the New York Herald between January twelfth, eighteen

619
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: eighty and January twenty sixth, eighteen eighty under headlines like

620
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: scientists wage bitter warfare.

621
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 4: And they went way back in their relationship too, And

622
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 4: they weren't just considering the last few years as there

623
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 4: as their ammo. They went back to the beginning According

624
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 4: to Huntington's article, Cope said things like Marsh was quote

625
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 4: unable to properly classify and name the fossils his explorers secured.

626
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 4: It's pretty damning. He said that Marsh took credit for

627
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 4: his assistant's work, and he also accused Marsh and the

628
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 4: US Geological Survey of corruption and misuse of god government funds,

629
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 4: which is pretty key here. For his part, Marsh brought

630
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: up how Cope rushed to get his discoveries into print,

631
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 4: you know, before they were ready, often making errors in

632
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 4: the process. He also brought up that embarrassing mistake with

633
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: the elasmosaur, among other things. We discussed that in the

634
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 4: last podcast, flipping the head and tail of the dinosaur

635
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 4: and then having Marsh be the one to point it out.

636
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: This newspaper feud didn't last long, but it was really

637
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 3: damaging to both of their reputations, so nobody won. In

638
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 3: this instance, Cope struggled to find a buyer for his

639
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 3: massive fossil collection because he needed the money. Eventually he

640
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: could only sell part of it, and then he hit

641
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: the lecture circuit and tried to secure a paying position

642
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 3: at a college. He didn't have that backing behind him

643
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 3: that Marsh had at Yale, I think I saw him

644
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 3: described in one spot as a rogue rogue scientist or

645
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 3: a rogue palaeontologist.

646
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: And now he has all this bad press out.

647
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: Too exactly, so doubly he just doesn't have anyone to

648
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 3: go to. At that point. It just proved to be

649
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: really tough to find a pain position. According to Pennock's article,

650
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 3: he finally got a position though, and a small salary,

651
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: at the University of Pennsylvania in eighteen eighty nine, and

652
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 3: he turned out to be a pretty good teacher. But

653
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 3: of course that wasn't his life's goal. That's not what

654
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: he had really wanted. He died in eighteen ninety seven

655
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: of renal failure at age fifty six.

656
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 4: According to PBS, and not right away, but in a

657
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 4: couple of years. Congress did investigate the US Geological Survey's

658
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 4: use of funds and ended up cutting their funding and

659
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 4: completely doing away with the Department of Paleontology. Marsh was

660
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 4: forced to resign, and for the first time he had

661
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: to accept a salary from Yale. He died of pneumonia

662
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 4: in eighteen ninety nine, two years after Marsh, at the

663
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: age of sixty seven, he only had one hundred and

664
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 4: eighty six dollars in his bank account when he died.

665
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: Of all that Peabody money that had come to his

666
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 4: collection ended up in the Smithsonian and at Yale, and

667
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 4: part of Cope's collection ended up at the American Museum

668
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 4: of Natural History. That's like, those are the two or

669
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 4: the three winners in the story. I think the places

670
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 4: and us too. You know that we can go see them.

671
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 3: Today, yeah, and that there's this interesting story for us

672
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 3: to look into. But looking at this result there doesn't

673
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 3: really seem to be like a winner at the end.

674
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 3: Neither of these guys seemed to really come out on top.

675
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 3: But of course they were both very accomplished overall, and

676
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: they both made major contributions to science. If you stack

677
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: up some of their accomplishments though side by side, what

678
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: does it look like. We wanted to take a look

679
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 3: at that, So first we'll look at the naming part

680
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: of it. Well, Marsh seemed to win when it came

681
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: to naming dinosaur species. He named eighty six out of

682
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 3: the one hundred and thirty some odd ones that they named.

683
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 3: Total Cope published war though according to Science Scope, his

684
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: record of twelve hundred publications is still unbeaten.

685
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean, I guess that is not Who's surprising

686
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 4: he won that side of the battle. Marsh notably provided

687
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 4: evidence for the theory of evolution two, which Darwin himself

688
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 4: called quote the best support of the theory of evolution

689
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 4: at the time. He found thirty specimens, for example, that

690
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: allowed him to outline the evolutionary history of the horse,

691
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 4: and he recognized similarities of the modern bird in extinct dinosaurs.

692
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 3: Cope, on the other hand, because of his religious convictions,

693
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: probably didn't support Darwin's theory. But as Science Scope points out,

694
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: he's known for Cope's rule, which is the observation that

695
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: organisms of a species tend to get larger over time

696
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 3: in the fossil records. So it just depends on what

697
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 3: you're judging them by. Which one of them won.

698
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it certainly made me wonder too, how much

699
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 4: they accomplished because they did have the other one there

700
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 4: competing and egging him on, or whether they could have

701
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 4: accomplished more if they had worked in better concert together

702
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 4: than they did, not trying to sabotage each other's work

703
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 4: as much.

704
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 3: No, but it's interesting, just another tidbit here. Their competition

705
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: continued a little bit even after the grave. About a

706
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: century after Cope's death, national geographic photographer Luis si Joios

707
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: got Cope's skull from the University of Pennsylvania. Cope had

708
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 3: willed his body to science, so this was available, and

709
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: he took the skull with him as he traveled around

710
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: the world interviewing paleontologists for a book, and he referred

711
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: to the skull as he was doing this as Eddie. Later,

712
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 3: he and paleontologist Robert Baker tried to have cope skull

713
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 3: named as the type specimen, which means that it would

714
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 3: have been the standard of a species to which all

715
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 3: others are compared. He wanted to have it named as

716
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: the type specimen for Homo sapiens, but it turned out

717
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 3: that the late botanist Caroless Linaeus had already been named

718
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 3: the type specimen for Homo sapiens.

719
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: So thank goodness for Linnaeus able to step in there

720
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 4: with his skull and stop this feud from continuing after death.

721
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I read elsewhere that one reason that Cope willed

722
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 3: his body to science is that he wanted them to

723
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 3: compare his skull size to Marsh's after Marsh died, But

724
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 3: Marsh didn't leave any sort of instructions to have his

725
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: skull studied after the fact, so they didn't ever get

726
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 3: to resolve that question.

727
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 4: I think that's for the best.

728
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's better just to look at the story, look

729
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: at their accomplishments, and decide for yourself. I think who's

730
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: the winner. But I'm curious for listeners to write in

731
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: and tell us if they have a favorite in this war.

732
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 3: I know that in the War of the Currents, for example,

733
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 3: Tesla was the overwhelming favorite among our listeners at least,

734
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: and so I wonder, cope, Er, Marsh, do you have

735
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 3: a favorite?

736
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:42,959
Speaker 2: Sarah?

737
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 3: Who do you think you would have been pals with? I?

738
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I don't know. Do I pick the

739
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 4: guy who didn't have any friends? I mean, odds are

740
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 4: You're a nice person, so I could see they could

741
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 4: have made friends with Marsh. I don't know they I

742
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 4: found myself during this story kind of rooting for each

743
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 4: of them, and that for each of them, and then

744
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 4: thinking that they were each terrible, terrible people. So maybe

745
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 4: I'll pass on this.

746
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, you're taking you're pleading the fifth.

747
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, do you have a Do you have a pick?

748
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I sort of agree with you,

749
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: although I found myself sympathizing with Cope a little bit more.

750
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 3: And maybe it's because some of the articles that I

751
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: read were more biased in that direction, but I think

752
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: it may also have a lot to do with the

753
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: fact that, at least from what I read, from the

754
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: evidence that I saw, it seemed that Marsh kind of

755
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: did the dirtier stuff, like the dynamiting of dig sites.

756
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: I didn't like that at all, So it's not cool.

757
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. Since

758
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 2: this episode is out of the archive, if you heard

759
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 2: an email address or a Facebook RL or something similar

760
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: over the course of the show, that could be obsolete now.

761
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 2: Our current email address is History podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

762
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 2: You can find us all over so media at Missed

763
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: in History, and you can subscribe to our show on

764
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, and wherever else

765
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: you listen to podcasts. Stuff You Missed in History Class

766
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,080
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767
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,840
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768
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:22,880
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