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Speaker 1: What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor and Zanga Harrison, and in season four of

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Speaker 1: Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their

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Speaker 1: journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped.

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Speaker 2: By their identities.

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Speaker 1: These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,

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Speaker 1: but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help

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Speaker 1: you or a loved one find recovery too. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: gave like a super long setup once we actually get

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Speaker 1: Jessica Hoppy on the line, so I'm going to keep

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Speaker 1: this quick. But this season was initially intended to be

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Speaker 1: all black everything, and then Jessica reached out to me

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Speaker 1: and I knew that it needed to be black and

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Speaker 1: brown and you'll hear the context for that. And so

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Speaker 1: this episode is all about the journey to being able

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Speaker 1: to bring your full self to recovery, including the wounds

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Speaker 1: that have been caused by systemic racism, marginalization, misogyny, patriarchy.

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Speaker 1: Your experience is real and we see you, and it

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Speaker 1: can be deadly. And to that comment, this episode is

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Speaker 1: dedicated to Jessica's cousin, Hans, who lost his life at

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Speaker 1: the hands of the wounds caused by these systems, and

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Speaker 1: in honor of him, we are shining a light on

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Speaker 1: those wounds so that if you have them, hopefully this

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Speaker 1: can begin healing by being seen and validated and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the cry fast. Okay, I'm about to give the

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Speaker 1: longest setup ever. I am wordy anyway, but this episode

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Speaker 1: actually earns a super long setup. So, Jessica, I am

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Speaker 1: so super excited. Ray have you here with us this morning?

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Speaker 1: I am reading First in the Family by Jessica hop

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so good.

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Speaker 2: So Jessica, I'm gonna look. Oh wait, we have to

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Speaker 2: do at the same time. That's so cute.

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Speaker 3: Understand, yay yay.

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Speaker 2: So this is this is.

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Speaker 1: Black and Brown Women author Power. Great, So let me

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Speaker 1: tell you what happened season four.

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Speaker 2: So we were doing seasons one, two, and three.

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Speaker 1: One it was hard to find black guests and two.

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Speaker 1: Each black guest that came on had this similar theme

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Speaker 1: to the story that was like finding the path to

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Speaker 1: start recovery was so hard because my face was not

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Speaker 1: the face of recovery. When I there were not like

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Speaker 1: people there for me. I didn't see that it was

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Speaker 1: for black people. Being black has its own set of

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Speaker 1: experiences that are really important part of developing addiction, getting

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Speaker 1: on the path of recovery, staying in recovery, whatever that

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Speaker 1: means to you.

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Speaker 2: And so I was like, you know what, I was like, Jada,

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Speaker 2: Season four.

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Speaker 1: All black everything period, right, Like, we're just gonna get

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Speaker 1: do six episodes and it's gonna be all black guests,

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Speaker 1: and we like went on this hardcore path to have

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Speaker 1: season four be all black. And so then I get

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Speaker 1: Aaron Carr, thank you very much thinking email that's like introducing.

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Speaker 2: You to Jessica Hop And I read your email.

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Speaker 1: I was in Indianapolish and I read your email, and

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Speaker 1: this is what I sent back to you. I said,

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Speaker 1: you grabbed my heart with quote I became addicted to

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Speaker 1: measuring my value and self worth by my achievements, a

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Speaker 1: common symptom of forced assimilation. And I wrote you back,

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Speaker 1: my god praying hands. Now that's what I wrote you back.

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Speaker 1: It took me like four or five days to respond

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Speaker 1: to you. I'm super fast on an email. I usually

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Speaker 1: respond within one day. When I first got your email,

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Speaker 1: I immediately responded and I wrote out, Jessica, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you grab my heart and so I love this and

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Speaker 1: I definitely want your book and I'm going to buy it,

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Speaker 1: but we're not having any more episodes of an Addiction.

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Speaker 1: I wrote it, yep, but I could not make myself

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Speaker 1: click sind. So then it's sat in my drafts for

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Speaker 1: like three days and I was like, Okay, I can't

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Speaker 1: click sind because I need Jessica's voice on the Unaddictioned

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Speaker 1: podcast and I need people who are having Jessica's story

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Speaker 1: to hear their story on the Unaddictioned podcast. So I

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Speaker 1: sent Jada in email and I was like, Jada, what

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Speaker 1: do you think about season four Black and Brown? And

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Speaker 1: she was like, hell, yeah, that's probably not what you said,

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Speaker 1: but that's what I imagine you said in my life.

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Speaker 2: That's what I said.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my internal, my internal response was yes.

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Speaker 1: And so thank you because we would have missed this opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And I would just like to say thank you to

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Speaker 1: the universe for your timing, because even just a few

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Speaker 1: weeks later, it would have been so much harder to

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Speaker 1: say yes, and we needed to say yes.

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Speaker 2: So that was the longest setup ever. But thank you

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Speaker 2: for being here.

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Speaker 3: I my intention in asking Erin was just to be

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Speaker 3: connected with you because you've just been such a beacon

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Speaker 3: for me and I know so ant people and it's

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Speaker 3: just really been like the light at the end of

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Speaker 3: the tunnel, just you know, affirming what can in recovery

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Speaker 3: feel very much like gaslighting. It's being like, you're absolutely

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Speaker 3: right about the way that you feel matters, and it's

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Speaker 3: so it does, and it does matter that you're a doctor,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't matter that you have all experience that

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Speaker 3: you and that you're a black woman. So for me,

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Speaker 3: I just wanted you to know that you're a huge

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Speaker 3: part of my book and my recovery. That's really what

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Speaker 3: I wanted. But to be on your platform, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: Like that's an honor to know that you're reading my book.

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Speaker 3: A dream. So I'm just happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: It's so good.

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Speaker 1: This book is first in the family, Jessica Hopp, it

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Speaker 1: is my you know, have fun on the airplane. I

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Speaker 1: only do two things on the airplane. I sleep, and

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Speaker 1: I eat snacks, and then I read books.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I guess that's me too. I guess that's three things.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm plenty on airplanes and so I'm reading

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Speaker 1: your book fast.

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Speaker 2: But will you just thank you for your words, they

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Speaker 2: were beautiful and forgetting Terry. Are you a cry baby too?

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Speaker 2: Because I'm a cry baby.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm holding it in, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: why is she trying to make the cry baby come

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Speaker 1: out of me?

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Speaker 2: First thing in the morning, you ken?

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Speaker 3: Can I feel a lot, which obviously, like you know,

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Speaker 3: goes with my sensitivities. And then I just yeah, I

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Speaker 3: that emotion just moves through me, and it's through my

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Speaker 3: tears and so. But yeah, we're so socialized to feel like,

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Speaker 3: oh I'm ashamed or so I do still get that feeling.

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Speaker 3: But I do feel very safe here, and I think

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Speaker 3: you should know how deeply I feel, you know, and

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Speaker 3: getting emotional. I think it's just part of my excitement

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Speaker 3: and the overwhelm of it all.

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Speaker 2: But I love it. I love it.

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Speaker 3: I mean to talk about someone who can really get

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Speaker 3: into this, you know, because like when you're obsessed with

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Speaker 3: this kind of material, it's not like everyone in your

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Speaker 3: life is obsessed as a material.

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Speaker 2: It's true, It's true. It's true.

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Speaker 3: Of the back and forth with someone who like really

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Speaker 3: gets sick, you can like even get deeper and like

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Speaker 3: a more expansive. I'm just very excited as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you to get into it,

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Speaker 1: Jessica by I asked Jada. Jada is usually in producer mode.

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Speaker 1: I wanted us to have like a black and brown

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Speaker 1: conversation here, and Jada has her own experiences with this

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Speaker 1: forced assimilation. And so thank you Jada for being here

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Speaker 1: for our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Also totally. I am so excited.

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to say, like, like your emotions even

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Speaker 4: just like opening up in the some of the first

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Speaker 4: words was it your the introduction to your book or

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Speaker 4: your author's note. You were talking about how you essentially

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Speaker 4: were numbing yourself to not feel So it's so cool

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Speaker 4: to see the or like this part of where you are.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's very cool.

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Speaker 3: So thank you, thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: All right, so Jessica, let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: Will you please just tell anybody who's listening who is

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Speaker 1: Jessica hop Wow, So like a psychiatrist's question, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me just.

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Speaker 3: Lean night in my church now. I am a person

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Speaker 3: in recovery. I've been abstinent for eight years. I don't

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Speaker 3: sort of qualify my recovery by my time of abstinence.

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Speaker 3: I choose abstinence every day because I still sort of

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Speaker 3: I feel a little unsure of how I could integrate

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Speaker 3: substances back in my life, and I don't one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent trust that I could have that right relationship that

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Speaker 3: like alignment. I'm also like really curious about what this

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Speaker 3: journey can bring me, and I do like to be

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Speaker 3: present and feel my feelings and not just have these

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Speaker 3: like outbursts. You know, I'm the youngest of three daughters.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in a really strong group of women

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Speaker 3: with a young mother, so oftentimes it felt like four

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Speaker 3: sisters you know very much, and like the strong, silent

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Speaker 3: type father, and so there was a lot of emotion,

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Speaker 3: lots of loud voices and opinions. And my response was

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Speaker 3: sort of to be the pleaser, the people pleaser, the

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Speaker 3: person you felt very responsible for making people feel good

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Speaker 3: and happy and things would be okay. So then when

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Speaker 3: I began to use substances that would lead to like

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Speaker 3: these really angry outbursts.

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Speaker 2: And you were how old, Jessica.

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Speaker 3: When I started, well, my parents were really strict, so

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Speaker 3: we were not allowed to, like, uh, there was no

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Speaker 3: drinking in the house, and I didn't really know what

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Speaker 3: that was about. Other than my mom raised us. Jope's witnessed.

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Speaker 3: So there were a lot of rules and restrictions, like

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Speaker 3: the stories of goodness and morality, you know, very strong,

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Speaker 3: you know, that minery. But then my mom would be

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Speaker 3: oddly like permissive with some things, and she was very

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Speaker 3: rebellious and big feminists in other ways. So it was

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Speaker 3: sort of you know, the Celia way of you know,

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Speaker 3: being in this community. And what I know is that

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Speaker 3: she ultimately felt very isolated in the place where we

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Speaker 3: were growing up, where she decided that it would be

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Speaker 3: safest best to raise us, and she really needed community.

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Speaker 3: And she herself came from a very traumatic background and

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Speaker 3: really difficult upbringing and under us, and so she did

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Speaker 3: have this feeling, this belief that I think we export

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Speaker 3: around the world, that this is a good place here

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Speaker 3: in the United States, that we need to you know,

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Speaker 3: fully where we are or the place has where we

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Speaker 3: come from our shitthole countries and things like this. So

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Speaker 3: you know, she she had that feeling, but she didn't

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Speaker 3: she didn't block, she didn't find me, so she's very isolated.

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Speaker 3: Religion was an answer for her. And so yeah, we

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Speaker 3: were very strict and my father didn't drink either he

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Speaker 3: doesn't drink. That doesn't mean that these psychles of behavior

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Speaker 3: were not present in our lives. The chronic illness was

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Speaker 3: not very present in our lives. You know, a lot

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Speaker 3: of that runs through our family, from schizophrenia, epilepsy, blood pressure, diabetes,

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Speaker 3: you name it. And my mom La suffered with manic depression,

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Speaker 3: and in my childhood, depression is a big thing. I

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Speaker 3: often and if i'm you know, experiencing a period of depression,

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Speaker 3: because I think it's something that is just it's either

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Speaker 3: overused or it kind of loses its actual meaning, or

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Speaker 3: it's like very stigmatized too, just like everything else. So

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Speaker 3: you don't want to be thought of as being lazy

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Speaker 3: or like you can't kick your shit together, you know.

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Speaker 3: So I don't really know how to kind of sort

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Speaker 3: of claim that for myself yet, but I do feel

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Speaker 3: like that's certainly something that occurs for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'll just jump in there to your point,

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Speaker 1: it's either something overused or you fall into this very

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Speaker 1: kind of stigmatized bucket.

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Speaker 2: I'll just call it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like to.

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Speaker 1: I think I see a couple of things going on simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: One is that the stigma around having depression is coming down,

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Speaker 1: and so people are calling more and more and more

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Speaker 1: things depression and that is excellent and I love that.

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Speaker 1: The other thing is we're pathologizing, Yeah, normal reactions, normal

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Speaker 1: human experiences. And so there is depression with a little

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Speaker 1: D that is a feeling, that is an emotion, that

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Speaker 1: is a normal reaction to grief and harm and fear

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Speaker 1: and trauma.

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Speaker 2: And then there's depression with.

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Speaker 1: A big D, yeah, which is a diagnosis, right, And

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Speaker 1: so I think those two things are getting kind of

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Speaker 1: pulled together. And it's important to know when we're experiencing

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Speaker 1: little D depression because we still need support, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's important to know when we're experiencing big D

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Speaker 1: depression because now there's another layer.

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Speaker 2: Of support that you need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: When my mom had big D, like and man expression

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Speaker 3: andious flashbacks and nightmare and just like an inability to

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Speaker 3: get out of bed and they and suicidal ideation, she

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Speaker 3: took medication and she felt like she had a very

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Speaker 3: bad response so anything. And then she had and my

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Speaker 3: father too, a lot of medical traumas. There's always been distrust, yeah,

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Speaker 3: well from medicine, doctors, et cetera. And I have to

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Speaker 3: affirm feels about that because it's very real. I mean,

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Speaker 3: she literally almost died in check for several times, and

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Speaker 3: you know, through the negligence and just a desire to

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Speaker 3: either test on women of color, which I'm sure we

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Speaker 3: all have experience within our lineage, and also to just

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Speaker 3: disregard our pain and and our care and our children

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Speaker 3: as well. Right, so she was very much in survival mode.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if she's been able to you know,

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Speaker 3: passed through that. I think from my father as well,

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Speaker 3: there's a deep, deep, deeply ingrained paranoia anything from like

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Speaker 3: any bill that comes or any small slight. It's it's

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Speaker 3: related to just a network of things and people who

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Speaker 3: just actively want to harm him. And he believes that,

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Speaker 3: and I understand why he does because of his life

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Speaker 3: experience and the fact that when he really did have

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Speaker 3: a very real story and it needed to be validated,

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Speaker 3: it never was. So if you go through life and

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Speaker 3: you know that any truth that you have a real,

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Speaker 3: real issue and that you're right, you know, and it's

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Speaker 3: never affirmed, and that can even like for him, that

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Speaker 3: it went very public. You know, it was in our

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Speaker 3: local newspaper. It was a Corey. I just think he's

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Speaker 3: really never moved on from that. From the not be

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Speaker 3: leaved and my mother as well. And I had an

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Speaker 3: experience and not being believed in my sexual assault, and

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Speaker 3: I think witnessing them never be believed was part of

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Speaker 3: what kept me isilent for really like fifteen years. And

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Speaker 3: so that's when my youth went up, you know, and

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, as you write about like a

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Speaker 3: big thing was going to college. First of all, getting

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Speaker 3: out of you know, the controlled area of my parents.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot of rebellion and just like a

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Speaker 3: desire to get the out of the town. And I

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Speaker 3: had that same I was mirroring my parents' dream that

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Speaker 3: like you know, the geographic was going to solve it all.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to get out of this or like nobody

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Speaker 3: understood me, and I was going to be in this

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Speaker 3: other place with a fresh start.

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Speaker 5: And like I went to Boston, you know, like what

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Speaker 5: the that was like.

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Speaker 1: Nic no shade to the individuals in Boston, but let's

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Speaker 1: just get right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the women that I've worked with at the time

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Speaker 3: of Butterflies, which is a noncrapic I work with helps

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Speaker 3: women of color through domestic violence, abuse and families, and

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Speaker 3: we do other you know, mental health initiatives for women

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Speaker 3: of color, but no shade.

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Speaker 5: But it is super racis Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 3: Uh, it was the same thing it was, you know,

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Speaker 3: Higley Applan. It's the haves, have not, have not, and

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Speaker 3: uh and now I'm in this. I felt like I

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Speaker 3: was in the pressure cooker really because if high school

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Speaker 3: was was a lot of pressure as well. But I

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Speaker 3: understood that I just like didn't have what the other

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Speaker 3: kids had, Like I was ever going to even keep

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Speaker 3: up with the Jones. It was very much about appearances.

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Speaker 3: And I was struggling with some neurodivergence and lexic and

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Speaker 3: my parents wanted to kind of field me from any

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Speaker 3: kind of labels or you know, marginalization that could happened

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Speaker 3: fair enough. But yeah, I was sort of treading water constantly.

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Speaker 3: And then I did think that college would be a

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Speaker 3: fresh start and I would like dive into my courses

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Speaker 3: and I'd be doing really well and very focused, and

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Speaker 3: I sort of lose my way and I sort of

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Speaker 3: give up on myself. You know, I wouldn't feel comfortable asking.

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Speaker 5: For help or.

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Speaker 3: Help with notes or going to my professor's I just

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Speaker 3: I never felt like, you know, the authority figures were

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Speaker 3: a place where I could find like the help that

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Speaker 3: I needed. And obviously that was like a familial you know,

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Speaker 3: learned behavior, but also was my lived experience too because

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Speaker 3: my my teachers did not care that I was falling behind.

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Speaker 3: I think there was a severe change in my disposition

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Speaker 3: in my behavior at school before my sexuals and after

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Speaker 3: everything from the way I walked around the way I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't interact with that into the way I dressed, like

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Speaker 3: I was constantly to the principal's office for like wearing

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Speaker 3: a short skirt or wearing something, you know, and like

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Speaker 3: it was like hoodies, put up, baggy clothes, don't look

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Speaker 3: at me. If anyone was paying attention, there would have

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Speaker 3: been some kind of assistance. And I do still feel

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Speaker 3: very sorry for that, for that girl, for the child,

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Speaker 3: But it just wasn't the kind of place where the

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Speaker 3: things that I needed were just actively provided for. They

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Speaker 3: were working with people who really had a lot, and

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Speaker 3: so it was a different mission to get people. You know,

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Speaker 3: of course everyone was trying to scale higher, but we're

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Speaker 3: talking about you know, beginning at different positions. Terms like privilege,

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Speaker 3: white supremacy, racism, like these were just not there was

337
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Speaker 3: just like you're making excuses. Like when I got into

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Speaker 3: college early, I got into Tufts, I got wait listed

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Speaker 3: at TAPS, and one girl to spread a rumor that

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Speaker 3: that was affirmative action, and I was just like deeply humiliated.

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Speaker 3: I tried to like stand up to her in a way,

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Speaker 3: but mostly I was just humiliated. And then I believed her.

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Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, there, that's crazy. You know. It

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Speaker 3: really accepts what people said and thought about me, and

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Speaker 3: I think that was so toxic for me. So once

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Speaker 3: I was free and all the kids were drinking, whoa

347
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Speaker 3: like it Like it just was I struck a match

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Speaker 3: and it was really the solution. Like the moment I

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Speaker 3: took a drink, I had that whole feeling of euphoria excitement,

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Speaker 3: like what really for almost like the first time I

351
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Speaker 3: took cocaine, Like whoa, I was really rocket it as

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Speaker 3: Bill and Bob's an.

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Speaker 2: But like freedom right, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: But very quickly the brain would start thinking, oh my god,

355
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Speaker 3: this isn't gonna last, this isn't gonna laugh, this is

356
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Speaker 3: gonna last, and I'd be like okay anymore, and so

357
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Speaker 3: I would start like drowning myself very quickly, and like

358
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Speaker 3: The pregame was my favorite because that was basically the

359
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Speaker 3: only time that I would remember, and I would sort

360
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Speaker 3: of hide my behavior by like being the person who's

361
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Speaker 3: passing around the drinks as we're getting ready, and so

362
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Speaker 3: my sister's not really paying attention to me. She's getting ready,

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Speaker 3: or she's with the guys she was seeing, or she's

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Speaker 3: with her other friends. And then we would all run

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Speaker 3: out the door and I'd be like, oh, I forgot

366
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Speaker 3: my phone, Oh I forgot my bah whenever these are

367
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Speaker 3: the right shoes, it's too cold, like, and I'd go

368
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Speaker 3: back in and I'd like take a couple more shots,

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Speaker 3: and by the time we'd be at whatever place, I

370
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Speaker 3: would be like back compending into some like offwar dance

371
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Speaker 3: move that would really humiliate me. Now if I were.

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Speaker 4: Not because like I give a drab but I a

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Speaker 4: don't think, but just because it's not a good dance move.

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Speaker 5: I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: But when you're like, when you're like four or five

376
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Speaker 1: six shots in, it is the move?

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Speaker 6: Do you go all the way back and come and

378
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 6: return to upright positions?

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Speaker 2: I mean it is impressive. I am actually impressed.

380
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a gymnast I don't know what hell

381
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 3: was going on, and then rating anger or like absolutely blackout.

382
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Speaker 3: And then I would wake up wherever. I would wake

383
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Speaker 3: up in the room of the guy I was seeing,

384
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Speaker 3: I would wake up in my sister's bed, I would

385
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Speaker 3: wake up wherever. And then it was the the response,

386
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Speaker 3: you know, always the like, do you know what you did?

387
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 3: Do you know you starret? Do you know what happened?

388
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 3: How did you get home?

389
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Speaker 1: And so this is you asking yourself those questions other

390
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: people asking you did like.

391
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Speaker 3: I can't believe such where I would have upset someone,

392
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Speaker 3: I done something, you know, to my partner. You know,

393
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Speaker 3: I would have been dancing with someone else. I might

394
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Speaker 3: have kissed someone else, I mean to you know, I

395
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Speaker 3: just yeah, And I genuinely did not remember, but I

396
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 3: felt horrible, and so I was just doing all the

397
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: things that would confirm all the horrible ways that I

398
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 3: felt about myself. And if I looked up to those

399
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 3: and those were those were true, and I just not

400
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 3: a mission to make sure that they were true. Like

401
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: the narratives that I had running around in my head,

402
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 3: my brain was just searching for the confirmation, you know,

403
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 3: I was collecting the data on what should I was, and.

404
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 5: I was, you know, adding more, Yeah, but I yeah.

405
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Speaker 2: This is how our brains work. By the way, this

406
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Speaker 2: is how our brains work.

407
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Speaker 1: So it's like, you decide to buy a red car

408
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Speaker 1: because you don't see anybody in your town with red cars,

409
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm going to buy a red car

410
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be the only one. And then

411
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: as soon as you make that decision, all you see

412
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 1: is red cars, right, and you're like, what the And

413
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: so that's why these childhood narratives are so incredibly powerful,

414
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: because your brain becomes tuned to, like you said, collect

415
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Speaker 1: the data to continuously reinforce those So even even if

416
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,479
Speaker 1: let's say, and I'm just making this up, ten percent

417
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: of the time the data from your life was reinforcing

418
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Speaker 1: those beliefs, and ninety percent of the time it was

419
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: something else, your brain cannot even see that ninety percent right,

420
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: because it discards that ninety percent as not true. It

421
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: can only collect data that says you're a piece of shit,

422
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: You're a piece of shit, You're a piece of shit,

423
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: and it internalizes and back to this force assimilation. Really,

424
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Speaker 1: the danger of racism, the danger of oppression and marginalization,

425
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Speaker 1: is that those messages get internalized.

426
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Speaker 2: Yes, and that's when it's really dangerous.

427
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: It's one thing to have someone else saying it to you,

428
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: because maybe you can refute that, right, But when your

429
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: brain is collecting the data and saying it back to you,

430
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: that's when it really becomes right deadly.

431
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 3: And that narrative has been programmed. And that's actually the

432
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 3: organizing principle of the world that we live in is

433
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Speaker 3: so insidious. But then you have other narratives, you know,

434
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 3: so my mom would be very confused, or like my

435
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: friends would be very confused. My sister's like you're so beautiful,

436
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: or you know, everything going for you, like why you

437
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 3: know'd be things of why don't you love yourself? Like

438
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 3: I'm gon understand, and I would feel shamed, you know,

439
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: like I just didn't have what other people had, like

440
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 3: a care respect for myself, Like I would just some

441
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: like you know, throwaway and if and then you know,

442
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: we get all the like armchair like social media, you

443
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: like wellness things and these ideas about like manifesting and

444
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 3: like you know, it's like you're kind of cheered by

445
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: a mindset or something like this, and and I'm like

446
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: that's all well, and good, and I do know that

447
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: I like actively talk to myself, like I was just

448
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 3: on NBC News and you have to not only go

449
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 3: on there on live national television. They tell you minutes

450
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 3: before it begins, and it's three minutes and when they

451
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: tap on the table and meet shut the and you

452
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: have something that means so much to you, you know,

453
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: and you have like a rehearse set of ideas that

454
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: you you're like, gotta say this, and in the three minutes,

455
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 3: like I got a little repetitive. And then I was

456
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: a little thrown off by the first question because it

457
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 3: wasn't what I had in my mind locked in, and

458
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: so I I was like, what happened? And then when

459
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: I walked watched it back, I was like, okay, it

460
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 3: was okay. But then I repeated this, she said this,

461
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: and it became that and I was literally like awoken

462
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 3: in my sleep with all the things that I should

463
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 3: and I had to literally stay out loud like that's enough.

464
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: You know what? Did I say? What I said?

465
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: Yeah?

466
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: I said what I said.

467
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 3: I'm very proud of what I said.

468
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: And I imagine I didn't even see it, but like

469
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: this is the difference, right, So you came to me

470
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: by email, and it was like I immediately felt my

471
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: heart connect to you.

472
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: I don't know why this is making.

473
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: Me whatever, but like I read your email and I immediately.

474
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: Like I told you, like I couldn't say no. Yeah,

475
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: And so my I do not know you.

476
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but my belief about you is wrapped in this

477
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: belief that you have an ability to.

478
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: Bring a light to the world.

479
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, based on your experiences, and it's a light

480
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: that people need to hear and that people need to see.

481
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: And so I didn't even see your three minutes on NBC.

482
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: But what I imagine about your three minutes on NBC

483
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: is that it saved somebody's life, right, Like it made

484
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: somebody be seen and that it was a light for somebody.

485
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think maybe and I like to let

486
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: my tears fall down my face because I love crying,

487
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: but maybe I do. I love crying, and I challenge people.

488
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, let the tears fall down your face, Oh

489
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: my god, and they like, give me a CLEANEX and

490
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't want your clean X. But then

491
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: but then they start getting dry, and then your face

492
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: starts feeling like nasty.

493
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: So then you have to like it's like natural tone.

494
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you have to like spread it out

495
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: or else it's like it's a problem. But like I

496
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: think what is making me cry is because it's back

497
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: to that ten percent narrative. Yes, that has been trained

498
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: into you, right, and even you're at this point of

499
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: such beauty and it still is so painful.

500
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: That's what I said. When my book came out, I

501
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: was like so low, and my mom even came into

502
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 3: the city to be with me, and I never I'm

503
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: just not disrespectful to my parents. I just and not

504
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 3: because they were like so strict. They were very strict

505
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: and like you were not going to say any.

506
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: Feelings, say save your own life, save your own life

507
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: before you say whatever you Yeah, exactly.

508
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: I really appreciate when they try to grow with me.

509
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: I was just like I was so low. I was

510
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: being like a little bratty, you know, even to my mom,

511
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 3: who also wants to have this moment, who also wants

512
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: to feel this moment, and you know this is hers too,

513
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: It really is. These are her stories as well. I'm

514
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: so lucky to you know, have my name on the cover,

515
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: but it's all of our names, it's all of our lives.

516
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: It's all of our stories. And I just I was like,

517
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: I can't, I can't do this. And I especially, I

518
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: think for people of color especially, it's like perfectionism is

519
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: a virtue.

520
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, for people, it's a survival never mind a virtue.

521
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: It's like a survival necessity.

522
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. And like you say it like with like a

523
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 3: lot of pride.

524
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 5: You're like, well, I'm a perfectionist.

525
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: And it's like, oh my god, Like the amount of

526
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: mistakes that I see people make and they keep it

527
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 3: moving and they're full of bride and they show up

528
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: like they own it.

529
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 5: And I'm like.

530
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: Up at night in the middle of the night with

531
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: like some historic like there is literally there is genuinely

532
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: no reason in the world that my book should exist.

533
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: I am not. I don't come from a publishing background.

534
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 5: There are no writers to.

535
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: Night fail me. There's no connect. Couldn't be publishing. I

536
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: didn't go for school school for it. I don't have

537
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: an MFA, nothing, I scrapped. I live in New York,

538
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 3: which is an enormous privilege. And I like it was

539
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: almost like door to door, like going back to my

540
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: job as witness days.

541
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 5: It was like hi out there.

542
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: Thank you for this childhood experience.

543
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: That was like and it was also kind of like

544
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 3: my recovery where I like I could never stand up.

545
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 3: I would try very often and like stand up, like

546
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: if it was my father, if it was my sister,

547
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: was my mother, who like, you're not saying any shit

548
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 3: to the people I love. For myself, I found it

549
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: incredibly difficult, particularly when it came to things like race, misogyny,

550
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: no patriarchal structures and norms, I would totally fold. I

551
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: felt a deep shame about myself and this you know,

552
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: the percentage of my brain that is hyper focused on

553
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: where I fall short. Was just saying, yeah, it's not

554
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: white supremacist. See this isn't about it just about fact

555
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: that I'm not smart enough or like I'm really money

556
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 3: or you know what I mean, like blaming the individual

557
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 3: systemic issues. Were just sing that, Like I totally bought

558
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 3: into that, like one thousand percent.

559
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if you were if you were good enough,

560
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: or if you have worked hard enough, or if you

561
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: were exceptional.

562
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: Enough, exactly you could overcome the system. And look at

563
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: the look at.

564
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: Those people who did right, So like it's possible, right,

565
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: and so if it's not happening it's you, which is

566
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: BS exactly.

567
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 3: And what we tend to do is we elevate those stories, right,

568
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: so we get the we get the statistics, we get

569
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: the numbers. It's like two percent of us are in

570
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: Ivy League colleges, two to six percent, and like after

571
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: all the changes in the Supreme Court, they're diminishing those numbers.

572
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: Profit So I think we're around six percent from what

573
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: I understand for people who identify as that to next

574
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 3: for people who identify as Latin X. For all books

575
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 3: published in North America, it's six percent, it's three. It

576
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: went up. It's probably coming down now because initiatives in

577
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 3: D and nine and are going band. So when they

578
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: take a chance on a book that's by a person

579
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: of color, it better perform because they bet on you,

580
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: and you know otherwise, like it's not the same pressure

581
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 3: as other books, and so you're, yeah, it feels like

582
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: an enormous, tremendous pressure. You have a you feel a

583
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: deep responsibility. It's very much like it's very much the

584
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: American dream, you know, being sort of projected. That idea

585
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 3: gets projected into so many aspects of our life. Like

586
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: if I felt that with my family, I feel that,

587
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 3: you know, in publishing. I feel that about my book.

588
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: I feel that in my relationship. You know that I

589
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 3: have to kind of pull a rabbit out of a hat,

590
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: you know, without ever being given an example about how

591
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 3: to like healthily conduct a relationship. I'm trying to essentially

592
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: pull off the marriage with someone who also has never

593
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: seen or experienced a healthy relationship. And so we do

594
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 3: really damn well, but it's not burbing. Then I have

595
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 3: the perfectionist, and I have all the societal influences that

596
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: we should be and we shouldn't be in like, I

597
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 3: get obsessed with watching Love Is Blood and he's just like.

598
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I legit.

599
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 5: It's just such a social legit.

600
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: Did Jada, what was the story I told you when

601
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: we were waiting for.

602
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: Jessica to the joining. Oh my god, it's a preposterous.

603
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: I'm binging season seven.

604
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: So I just started it yesterday and I was like, okay,

605
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: my first meeting is ten thirty.

606
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: I got out of the shower. It was ten eighteen.

607
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 2: I was like, I can get it. This is ridiculous crazy.

608
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: That is the show. It feels like when I used

609
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 3: to use because you know, you stay up all night

610
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 3: and like that will stay up on that.

611
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: It makes no it is so bad.

612
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm like crying, I like feel in my heart. I'm like, oh,

613
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm rooting for you.

614
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: I'm like, you can't talk to him like that. No,

615
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 2: like I am in it is a mess.

616
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 5: And I believe it.

617
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 3: At first, I'm like, this plan't be like their most

618
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: successful season.

619
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: It is, And I'm like, okay, they obviously like because

620
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: last season, Jessica, listen, y'all like got some people that

621
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: were not looking for love, they were looking for ig followers.

622
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: And I think they did a better job.

623
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: That's what's happened everywhere, and that like you can like

624
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: have a jump off that's right career and so the yeah, okay.

625
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: But anyway, anyway, because we will clearly fall down.

626
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: The love is blind rabbit hole.

627
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 3: Like you definitely feel like you're he should be very

628
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: very grateful for the pathway you you know, broken through gatekeepers,

629
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: but you also have no map, you have no resources,

630
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 3: you know, So it's like it's it's always that that

631
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: cash twenty two, Like you're it's it's difficult. So my

632
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: my focus, I maintain a focus on the message, the

633
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: purpose of the book, and that like one of my

634
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: friends who I believe I feel it's like a very spiritual,

635
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 3: very spiritual person that I really admire and I trust.

636
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 3: One of the first things they said to me was like,

637
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 3: this isn't about you. And I'm mostly.

638
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: Like, you're like, it's.

639
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 5: A memoir menmore like maybe more.

640
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 3: Like, oh my god, it's.

641
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:08,479
Speaker 5: Me, Like they're to me, what, But oh my god.

642
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: That has been celebrating because it's true because I really

643
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: my intention was to write a book that was about

644
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: the history of indigenous, black and brown people people of

645
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 3: color in recovery. And I work so hard to find

646
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: such as yourself who really affirmed and really gave me

647
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: a rooted, holistic, realistic approach to my recovery because ideas

648
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: like outside issues or like the constant policing and monitoring

649
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: and like the protection of like you know, the the

650
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: legacy that that AA was founded on that I know

651
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 3: people find like very upsetting. I got my first hater,

652
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: so she wrote like this long dire tribe on the

653
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: conservative blog and me and my partner got a real

654
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: kick out of everything that she wrote. And from Harvard,

655
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: you know, it's just it's not going to work, like

656
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 3: unless we can bring all of ourselves into the room

657
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: unless we can acknowledge what is actually going on, like

658
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 3: the reality of the matter. And so when I came

659
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 3: into the room, I had the same experience that I

660
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 3: was having at my school in the place where I

661
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 3: grew up my work, where you like, no, that's not happening,

662
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: and like you know that it's true. But recovery was

663
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: the only thing where I was like, no, no, no,

664
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: this is too important, like I can't, like I'm not

665
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 3: going to let you get away with this, like not,

666
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: you're not now, because this is literally my life because

667
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: I did have a near death experience that brought me

668
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: into the rooms, and the stranger saved my life. I

669
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 3: was was blackout, and I guess I was trying to

670
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: get home. I know I was trying to get home

671
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: because I was in a taxi, but I was being terrible.

672
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: I was being awful, and essentially the taxi driver kicked

673
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: me out in the middle of the West Side Highway.

674
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 3: The West Side high was a multiple lane highway on

675
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 3: the West side of New York and people to be like,

676
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 3: it's nothing of you not want to be call out there,

677
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 3: And this woman was sitting on the steps of the

678
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: museum and she sees a woman kind of spill out

679
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 3: of a car with all her shit. Kind I had

680
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: very high heels on and I was trying to like

681
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 3: scale cinder block road blocks, and she literally ran out

682
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: and pulled me to safety, and she tried to get

683
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 3: my name and my phone number, and she got my

684
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 3: name and she called me another mob from my phone,

685
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 3: and then that uber came back, she said, about fifteen

686
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: minutes later, and said I was being awful unbearable again,

687
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: and so he dropped me off somewhere downtown. And so

688
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 3: she didn't know what had happened to me. She kept

689
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 3: googling my name. Eventually she found my social media. She

690
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 3: reached out to me and you told me what had happened,

691
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: and nayah, I just it's hearing the most unbelievable story

692
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: about yourself simultaneously like knowing in your bones that it's true.

693
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, it was definitely an out

694
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 3: of body like you know, I remember it was like

695
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 3: the middle of the summer. I felt like so cold,

696
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 3: like just shivering cold. I knew, you know, this was

697
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 3: something that I couldn't run from anymore. I couldn't, you know,

698
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 3: blame on anything else. Like I just always felt like, oh, well,

699
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: when I break up with my boyfriend, you know, it's him.

700
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: When I get a better job, it's him. Or like

701
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 3: I can't pay my rent, I'm stressed, or I can't

702
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: pay my student loans. Oh my god, Like it was

703
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: everything else, right, it was everything else. And but my

704
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 3: substance used to sort of was keeping me on a

705
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 3: hamster wheel as well. I wasn't going to be able

706
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 3: to be in any type of position to take care

707
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 3: of the things that I needed to unless I stopped,

708
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 3: I stopped using the way that I was.

709
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 5: But yeah, I was incredibly shocking.

710
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 3: I went to my therapist and I read this woman's testimony. Essentially,

711
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: I was like, look, I'm gonna I'm not gonna say

712
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 3: anything to you. I don't want to be an absent

713
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 3: to like make something up or manipulate you, and anyways,

714
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 3: I'm gonna read you this and I won't want you

715
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 3: to tell me at the end yes or no.

716
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 5: And I read it.

717
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: To her and she was like, I was just like,

718
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 3: is this true? Like am I an alcoholic like mine?

719
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 3: Added route and she was like, the definition is a

720
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: manage it? Forwardy? And I think your death is unmanageable, and.

721
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 2: Your death is unmanageable.

722
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 3: It is unmanageable. And so I am never like we're criers,

723
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 3: but I have never read like that. Thing that hurt

724
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: me the most was the idea of telling my parents.

725
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: That was the first thing that hit me, and the

726
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 3: idea of going out into the world everything that I

727
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: was trying to do to maintain this image of myself.

728
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 3: I'm being seen for what I really was, you know,

729
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: which was a mess.

730
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: And and well, just click deeper into that, Jessica, because

731
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 1: I think this is like the heart and soul of

732
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: the email you sent me. And I'm not all the

733
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: way through your book, but it's the heart and soul

734
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: that I'm getting as I get through.

735
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: Is that.

736
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: Letting the world see you for what you really are

737
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: quote a mess. But the rest of that sentence I

738
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: think is up against the American dream of being the exceptional.

739
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 3: Yes not white, Like how how I was like how

740
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: you know I've been doing everything right, you know, like

741
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 3: I was very much my father and that mom. And

742
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: as much as I can observe, you know, him feeling

743
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 3: that way about his electricity bill, you know, I'm believing

744
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 3: that the cost is a conspiracy, which is it's just

745
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 3: not the one that he thinks, you know, like you're

746
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 3: you're on the right track, But I didn't see the

747
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: whole chess board, you know what I mean. I wasn't

748
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 3: bringing in the systemic And that's what I hate about

749
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: a lot of the conversations that we have around recovery

750
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: is that it's always about like elevating someone in their

751
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 3: recovery and their abstinence, like yes, and then like we're like,

752
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: you know, like, oh my god, the descent, oh my god,

753
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 3: the rock bottom is like cost and we never bring

754
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 3: in the systemic role. We don't see it as like

755
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: collective issue. We really separate, you know, the tendency that

756
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: repetitive behavior with like food, work, phone, I have a

757
00:44:54,120 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: totally addictive relationship with my phone, with social media rivals,

758
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 3: anything I was doing with substances. What I wanted to

759
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 3: like contextualize too in my book is that very real truth.

760
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: You know that my mom struggled with food her whole life.

761
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 3: My father has a very sort of paranoid relationship with

762
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 3: the truth that doesn't allow him to just be fully

763
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: here in the present moment. And like issues like patriarchy,

764
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 3: gender based violence, white supremacy were the you know, dictating

765
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 3: principles of our lives, and we were taking all of

766
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: that upon ourselves. There was no humanity to offer one

767
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 3: another because we were replicating the ideas that we had internalized,

768
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 3: not because we're ignorant, we're stupid, or we're insensitive to

769
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 3: one another, because those are the stories, Like it was

770
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 3: a Katies in the nineties. It was like Reagan's off

771
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 3: Nixons the bushes, like these were the stories. It was there.

772
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 3: It was just saying no, it was egg on the

773
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: caster and like random celebrities and very scary, spooky stories.

774
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 3: And then an uncle who was kind of a you know,

775
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 3: an angry, violent sort of person who I observed using

776
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: drugs one day. And then I'm seeing this you know,

777
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: national message by the president, you know, with this like

778
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 3: like shocky block of what he called crack cocaine.

779
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: I wasn't.

780
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: And then he's talking about the Andean region, which is,

781
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 3: you know, where my father comes from. All of these

782
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 3: messages getting realized. Meanwhile, I'm getting the commentary, the questions

783
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: at school that as a child I cannot answer. I

784
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: bring them to my family. They're just very defensive. They're scared,

785
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 3: They're full of fear, so it is more and more isolating. Luckily,

786
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: I had sisters and we were able to kind of

787
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 3: figure some things out together. And I, like I said,

788
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 3: I had talk sisters, you would really like to devent me,

789
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: like you know, and when they left, you know, over

790
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 3: the years, I think that did make me more vulnerable,

791
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 3: but it also led me to deeply believe that I

792
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 3: couldn't take care of myself, that I wasn't enough for myself,

793
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 3: that I always needed the protection of you know, my

794
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 3: sisters or a partner. I just wasn't enough for anything.

795
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 3: But like I said, I was trying to fulfill this

796
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: American dream. I was trying to write the wrongs in

797
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 3: my family and you know, heal the wounds of our past.

798
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 3: And I wasn't understanding how they were very much alive

799
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 3: in me presently and how they were being perpetuated and

800
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: how to even learn how to try to interrupt them.

801
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 3: So that's definitely where recovery led me. So I always say,

802
00:47:54,360 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: if the American Dream was my gateway, recovery was the

803
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 3: opening the pathway to liberation, right, And I think that

804
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 3: that's what you know, the history of all the black

805
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 3: Brown Indigenous people and our legacy of recovery really showed us.

806
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 3: But I think one of the beautiful things it's like

807
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: they really didn't separate addiction. You know, whiskey. Take for example,

808
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 3: we're going to like Canton Lake and the indigenous history.

809
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 3: It wasn't as if whiskey was separated from gambling or

810
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 3: you know, the violence that was occurring among families, or

811
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 3: you know, the giving, the loss and the land theft,

812
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 3: And it was really brought under this blanket of like,

813
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 3: we're losing our life ways, we're losing our pride in

814
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 3: ourselves and our tradition, our serum losing and that's how

815
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: all these other things are infiltrating. So they were brought together,

816
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 3: and I really tried to. I tried to do that

817
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: in my family and and with people at any time,

818
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 3: I can talk about this, like let's bring these things together,

819
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 3: Let's bring them shoulder to shoulder, because the isolation of

820
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 3: you know, the stigma of carrying this. That's why I

821
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 3: tend to use the word addict in that reclamation exercise

822
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 3: because it's so charged for so many people. Like the

823
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 3: first words of my book are I'm a drunk and my.

824
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 5: Mom hated it.

825
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 3: I asked her to read it, and like she was

826
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 3: stopped right there. She loves immovable, Like I don't like that, Jesse, Like,

827
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 3: don't say that. She's very you know, the idea of

828
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 3: her she cannot reconcile it. But when we talk and

829
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 3: we talk through it, she sees the lie and that

830
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: she sees the injustice of it.

831
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 5: And just yeah that it's just plainly a lie.

832
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 3: And that's not what human beings are. Susceptible, perceptible to

833
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: our page. We're all Dane. We're trying to manage and

834
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: we're given these ridiculous expectations in a world that was

835
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 3: not created across it's entirely unsustainable. But I believed in it,

836
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 3: My family believed in it. I aspired tremendously. And yeah,

837
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: as long as there was a two percent, that's six percent,

838
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 3: then what was wrong with me?

839
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: Then what's wrong with you?

840
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: And you know what's wrong with you? Yeah, mathematical probability. Okay,

841
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: that's that's what's wrong. Like when it's two percent, that

842
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: means ninety eight, that means the quote normal person right

843
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: right is going to suffer and the two percent are

844
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: also suffering.

845
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: Yes, Like let's just be real about that, right, like

846
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: the two percent are also suffering. Okay, listen, Jesse.

847
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: Oh look, I don't even know you like that, And

848
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: you say your mama called you Jesse, And then I

849
00:50:58,440 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: was like, hey girl.

850
00:50:59,440 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 5: I'd love it.

851
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: I'm bleshing, please call me.

852
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: I would love This hour is gone And I cannot

853
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 1: believe this hour is gone.

854
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: Because we could just keep talking.

855
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: And I wanted to say, for everybody who's listening, even

856
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: though you didn't hear a lot of Jada's voice, I

857
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,959
Speaker 1: saw the tears. I saw the head nuds. Oh yeah,

858
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: I saw so just like do you wanna okay, Jessica,

859
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: I'm an adoptee. So for simulation, there's a separation from

860
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: culture of origin, model minority thingies, right. So I want

861
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: to reflect back some things that I heard in your

862
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: story around the legacy of trauma. Basically, you know, you

863
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: have hereditary mental health struggles, and you have people in

864
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: your family, father caretakers who are kind of buying into

865
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: a narrative that is not necessarily true, like this paranoia, right,

866
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: or perhaps is misplaced. My therapist introduced this framework of

867
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: complex PTSD, which has been really helpful. One of the

868
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: elements of that is I'm like really paraphrasing this, but basically,

869
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: when you have a shitty story in your hairt like

870
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: you said that you had, and perhaps that your father had,

871
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: and perhaps that your mother had, and like your cousin

872
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: or uncle or whatever, and you continue to see that

873
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: story affirmed in your life, whether or not it's actually happening.

874
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: Every time there is a little bit of a confirmation

875
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: and then blatant confirmations. Right that chick at school, that's

876
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: like you were an affirmative action whatever.

877
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: You talked about.

878
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 4: How you know, you wake yourself up at night with

879
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 4: these thoughts of like, how in the world does my

880
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 4: book even exist? This shouldn't be happening, and my curiosity

881
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 4: is around like your experience in your story as yours.

882
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 4: But from an external standpoint, what I see is that

883
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 4: regardless of all of these things like patterns, hereditary things,

884
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 4: these are things that like you could spend a lifetime

885
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 4: trying to disrupt, and it seems as.

886
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: Though you have so.

887
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 4: At some point you had this story and and like

888
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 4: confirmed narrative over and over again that you don't deserve

889
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 4: help or that there isn't help for you. And you

890
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 4: say in your in your book that you needed the

891
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 4: truth to heal. Right, So, like, at what point were

892
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 4: you able to bring your whole self somewhere and be

893
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 4: seen and receive help. Have there been moments Yeah, when

894
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 4: your narrative what has caused, you know, or manifested hyper

895
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 4: independence within you?

896
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 2: Have there been moments that challenged Yeah?

897
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 3: I think like whenever you are a human being who's

898
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 3: like push to the limit of what you can endure.

899
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 3: And a lot of that is mental for me because

900
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 3: I will really really hume on myself, like I really have,

901
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 3: and I always pride myself on my you know, pain threshold,

902
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 3: and there's no place that I go harder myself than here.

903
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 3: So it's very hard to get it from out of

904
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 3: my brain and like through my mouth, even though I'm

905
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 3: such a talker. That's probably why I talk so much,

906
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: because I'm like, it's okay, right, I'm okay, right, We're okay.

907
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: I'm probably trying to talk my way into yeah, affirming

908
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,359
Speaker 3: that like branding myself. But I was four and four

909
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 3: years into recovery, and at the beginning I was really

910
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 3: surrendered to it, you know, like I arrived in like

911
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 3: that sort of tornado, like a flurry I sat.

912
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 5: On the floor.

913
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 3: I was like, what, like the way these people talk

914
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 3: about this has nothing to do with the way they

915
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 3: talk about it out there, like what the So I

916
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 3: not really liberated me. I was like, hey, I want

917
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 3: like I want what they have quote right, like the

918
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 3: way they always say. And then once that that freedom started,

919
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: like the barriers became, you know, the fences started to appear,

920
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 3: you know, because they were always there, the electric fence.

921
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 4: Right.

922
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 3: So I started to get to buzz at this place

923
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 3: where I was completely surrendered a which group therapy, and

924
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: I did want to just like come for I was like, well,

925
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 3: I don't have anything else, what else you know, like

926
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 3: you know, I am breaking the rules like these are

927
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 3: traditions like this kind of shit. And then I was

928
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 3: like hell no, Like it's there are so many contradictions

929
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 3: in that, because if you're telling me that to like

930
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 3: to betray myself is to not stand in my truth,

931
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 3: like I know, I'm not harming anyone with my truth.

932
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 3: I'm not.

933
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 5: And if I don't chow up in my truth.

934
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 3: Then that's like a relapse, and that's that's getting me

935
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 3: down a road that's dangerous for me. You're also asking.

936
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 5: Me to come in and.

937
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 3: Leave all the parts of myself that I need in here.

938
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 3: I need to heal in here, and not just like

939
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 3: I need to acknowledge, I need you to say yes,

940
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 3: which is like what listening to Nia Zinga's podcast in

941
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 3: that moment and finding that did for me. Right, So

942
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 3: it's not like I could ask Niazinga like I'm right right,

943
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 3: but I could hear it, you know, and I could

944
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 3: read it in this book and I could know that

945
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 3: I'm babalidated in that. And then there was the speaking

946
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 3: up and so like I kind of sounded off in

947
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 3: my group, and I kind of said, like there's no

948
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 3: way that any of us can stay sober and ignore

949
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 3: what is going on outside our yours. We cannot do that.

950
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 3: It's just like that, that's not the definition of sobriety.

951
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 3: And you're harming me, You're harming the other black people

952
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 3: in this room, harming oppressed people like hello, And so yeah,

953
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 3: I had I stood up, and I knew that that

954
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 3: was going to be terribly you know, almost dangerous for

955
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 3: me because where would I be And we know like

956
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 3: that little seed, that little germ of intoxicution, and that

957
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 3: addiction begins with that isolation that loneliness and I was

958
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 3: very lonely. I was very scared. And my partner is NAP,

959
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 3: which is an Indigenous people and said, well, and while

960
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 3: I was just sort of crying into my brand and

961
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 3: he was like, you know what it's like, there's no

962
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 3: way to white guys invented this ship. He made me

963
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 3: laugh and I feel good, you know, I felt you know,

964
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 3: and we started researching and so yeah, for me, my

965
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 3: partner is like very much a sounding board. It's you know,

966
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 3: it's very much like a moral I just check in

967
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 3: like we're just we very much are in alignment. There

968
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 3: gives me a lot of support. And he can find

969
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 3: anything on the internet or like he's an incredible researcher.

970
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 3: And we found these stories about like Handsome Lake and

971
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 3: Frederick Douglass and the memoir of Cheney Allen and you

972
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 3: know Talxic that Belle Hooks gave and I found n

973
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 3: Zinga's podcast and I felt very free. I felt very affirmed,

974
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: and I wrote my own article called the first step

975
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 3: in recovery is to admit you're not powerless over your privilege,

976
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 3: and I.

977
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 6: Yes, great fear because you know, a people don't play

978
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 6: like there is a deep devotion there with all due respect,

979
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 6: and I had it as well.

980
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's definitely felt like I was like defecting,

981
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 3: and I was like, you know, there's a lot of

982
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 3: devotion there, and yeah, I published that, and then the

983
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 3: backlash that I was anticipating actually ended up being such

984
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 3: a swell of support and gratitude, and I started to

985
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 3: find people who were creating spaces for Blackbroun Indigenous people

986
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 3: and now that that's my family, and they're called Shine

987
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 3: your Light, and I go there and that's the place

988
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 3: where I feel safe. That's the place where I feel firmed.

989
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 3: I always say, like I'm isolating. I always say I

990
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 3: need help, and I always say the number one thing

991
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 3: that I struggle with is I cannot ask for help.

992
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 3: And I struggle to believe that I belong in spaces

993
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: with other people that I deserve love. You know, I

994
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 3: just had a long conversation with my partner about you know,

995
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 3: still working on that and believing that I deserve love

996
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 3: and them too. So it's like I really try and

997
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 3: stay like wherever. I've just always been like like lows,

998
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 3: I'm just like very deeply interested, so curious about people.

999
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 3: But the way we interact and the way we love

1000
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 3: each other. And the one thing that really drove my

1001
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 3: desire to sort of show myself to my family and

1002
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 3: my loved ones was because I knew we weren't loving

1003
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 3: each other the way we could, the way we should,

1004
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 3: but the way we could, because.

1005
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 7: They are all these like toxic, poisonous like means of separation,

1006
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 7: not that we were physically severe because we're so bashed,

1007
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 7: but in our hearts and through these stories in our minds.

1008
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 7: So that's why I said, like the art of narration

1009
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 7: is the process of recovery. Our stories will always take in.

1010
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 7: So this is just one convers one contribution in the

1011
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 7: conversation that I have at my group, that I have

1012
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 7: with my partner, I have with my nieces and nephews,

1013
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 7: you know, just so like I'm not going to like

1014
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 7: save the family or enoe like the family, Like I

1015
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 7: get a cure recovery for all of time and our family,

1016
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 7: and like I don't want to be like put on

1017
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 7: a pedestal.

1018
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 3: And that's what I noticed too, Like it was such

1019
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 3: a way of my family to be Like I meet

1020
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: a Ka Kahlina Michra, like she just doesn't drink anymore,

1021
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 3: and she's so gratually. It was like it was like Saints,

1022
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 3: could you know? And I was like, no, no, no,

1023
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 3: we cannot do that. And I lost two cousins in

1024
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 3: that process. Like I launched my book in New York

1025
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 3: City on the one year anniversary of my cousin's death

1026
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: thirty nine years old, well almost the same aged cirrhosis.

1027
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 3: He was drinking courtzabaka a day to survive being here

1028
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 3: and not being loved and not just the road of

1029
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 3: life that men like my cousin are given. And I

1030
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 3: dedicated a night to him, and I said, my uncle's

1031
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 3: response just really hurt me because we were on his

1032
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 3: deathbed beside people that are twice three times my cousin's.

1033
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 5: Age, and he's like, oh no, I saw.

1034
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:10,919
Speaker 3: He was like, you know, that's a circle of life.

1035
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 3: It's natural. And it's like I refuse to believe that

1036
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 3: you know, like you all know better than anyone, that

1037
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 3: these deaths are preventable. That you know, we're experiencing this

1038
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 3: great decline in fatal overdose, but among our communities and

1039
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 3: ethnically and racially minoritized, minoritized groups, they're on the rise.

1040
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 3: And we just don't talk about it, you know, and

1041
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 3: no one wants to look at that and look at

1042
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 3: those numbers and interrogate that further. And then there's a

1043
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 3: fear in our community where it's like, oh, are we

1044
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 3: confirming this bias? Are we saying this is.

1045
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 5: True about us?

1046
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 3: So we don't. We're never given the access to the

1047
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 3: to the full spectrum of our humanity. And so all

1048
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 3: I wanted to say was, I know you're going to

1049
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 3: pick up this book, and that's why I'm in my

1050
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 3: in my group. You know. That's where I really got

1051
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 3: that out. And I was able to take that practice

1052
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 3: into my family relationships, into my relationship with my partner,

1053
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 3: and into my work just to say, like, I know

1054
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 3: you're here for this, and it's only fair to tell

1055
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 3: you that I didn't that sometimes we have all this

1056
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 3: pain and trauma and we can't be resilient over it,

1057
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 3: and we can't overcome you know, I didn't overcome like

1058
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 3: my parents' history and you know, times of housing insecurity

1059
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 3: and almost us and rape and and and just like

1060
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 3: overcome it all and bootstrap my way into the IVY

1061
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 3: League and then become the editor of the newspaper and

1062
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 3: then become this great writer, you know, on our way

1063
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 3: to full surprise. I didn't. I caved. I bent like

1064
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 3: not just to my knees, but like lower to the bottom.

1065
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 3: And it was that weight that pushed me down there.

1066
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 3: Maybe I could have just been standing up or crawling it.

1067
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 3: Sometimes sometimes we're.

1068
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 5: Just crawling through life, right, And that's okay.

1069
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,919
Speaker 3: So I want us to just be more accustomed because

1070
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 3: if so few of us, and like you said, is

1071
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 3: zinga two percent six percent, you're suffering too. Like this

1072
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 3: system affects us all. We're hurt, we're harm, We're watching

1073
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 3: a genocide playout. We're watching deep, deep harm in Sudan

1074
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 3: and Kongo around the world, and Alstine and Lebanon in

1075
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 3: my country is of origin constantly and it's very painful.

1076
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 3: But part of that is to know that we're connected

1077
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 3: to all of this, that the pain and the suffering

1078
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 3: is is all of us together, and I think that's

1079
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 3: the only thing that will inspire us to to change. Sure,

1080
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 3: I can have compassion for someone, I can see, oh

1081
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 3: my god, you're going through great suffering, But can I

1082
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 3: know that that suffering belongs to me, that I have

1083
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 3: a role in it, that I have a part and

1084
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 3: that's what people need to understand about substance uses. To her,

1085
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 3: it's not different. This is our pain. And the reason

1086
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 3: it becomes uncomfortable for us is because we don't want

1087
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 3: to be reminded of how much thing we are in.

1088
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 3: And people who you know, need to use drugs outside

1089
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 3: in public, that's just very like uncomfortable for us. We

1090
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 3: don't want to look at that, you know, don't like

1091
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 3: what the hell you know what I mean, Like there's

1092
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:25,919
Speaker 3: these horrible responses instead of like holding it and being

1093
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 3: like yeah, like yeah, man, like yes, I feel that

1094
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 3: I want to crawl out of my skin. I want

1095
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 3: to escape, but I know that when I when I

1096
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 3: do that to try, you know, and ameliorate some of

1097
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 3: the ways that I feel that I can very quickly

1098
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 3: take me to a place where I can die. And

1099
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 3: I right now like I don't want to die. I

1100
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 3: don't want to die. I want to be here. So

1101
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 3: it's just about wanting to speak to that ninety eight percent,

1102
01:06:56,320 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 3: ninety four percent of us, be percent. Yeah, be ourselves

1103
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 3: and cellary, our many our imperfections and the ways we

1104
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 3: excel and define success for ourselves, and to be really

1105
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 3: proud of being in recovery, which is a miracle, but

1106
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 3: not so it can be like, oh, my cousin died,

1107
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 3: he failed and me I survived on it. That's right, exactly,

1108
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 3: That's not what this is like out of my cousin

1109
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 3: and proud that he reminded.

1110
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 5: My family of how much pain we were in, and

1111
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 5: proud that he tried.

1112
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 3: To survive as best he could.

1113
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 5: I do not condone any.

1114
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 3: Of the harm that he caused. I understand, but I

1115
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 3: put it in context and I understand, like this makes

1116
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 3: perfect sense, and it's on all of us, Like his

1117
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 3: death is the responsibility of our family and the system.

1118
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 3: And as long as my family doesn't understand, you know,

1119
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 3: the systemic role, and then our role as the people

1120
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 3: who surrounded him, whenever we do risk having more and more.

1121
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 3: So that all I tell is my I end the

1122
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 3: book by talking to my nephew because he's like, what's

1123
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 3: the name of your book And I said it was

1124
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 3: tirst in the building. He's like, but your last, and

1125
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 3: he's because I'm the baby, right, And I was so

1126
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 3: moved and I was so touched because children have such

1127
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 3: a way of getting to the root.

1128
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 5: And I just said to him, you.

1129
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 2: Know, I hope so.

1130
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 3: And that's it. I hope so. And I know that

1131
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 3: they me being honest with them means that if they

1132
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 3: feel this way, they know that it's not just like

1133
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 3: encurate incarceration, death, deportation, which were the stories that I

1134
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,840
Speaker 3: had or the example that I had. They can see

1135
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 3: that someone is recovering and honest and forgive themselves and

1136
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 3: loves themselves. And how's a family that does that and

1137
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 3: changes the language and changes the way we treat things.

1138
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 3: And you know, talk about the neighbor, talk about my

1139
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 3: cousin versus me. Yeah, bring it all in And so, yeah,

1140
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 3: I had to stand up.

1141
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 5: I had to stand up to my group in.

1142
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 3: Order to do that, in order to find a place

1143
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 3: where I could really bring all of myself. And through

1144
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 3: that courage and through the support that they gave me,

1145
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 3: I was able to just like kind of stand up,

1146
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 3: you know, very publicly and do it. And then I was,

1147
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 3: you know, paid back with so much love and support

1148
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 3: and gratitude. So I'm just about sharing that over and

1149
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 3: over and over again and honoring my family's legacy.

1150
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 2: I love it so.

1151
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: In preparation for a podcast that I'm going to be

1152
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 1: a guest on one of the questions was what do

1153
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: you hope for recovery for the future or something like that,

1154
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: and I said, my hope is that we can value

1155
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 1: the innate humanity of people who are in the midst

1156
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: of their struggle the way we value it for people

1157
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:13,440
Speaker 1: who have found their path to recovery.

1158
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,759
Speaker 2: Yes, and so I think that's the story of your cousin.

1159
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: So can you tell us your cousin's name, Hans Hans. Yeah,

1160
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: So I think this episode is for Hans and for everyone.

1161
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 1: I loved what you said, which is who tried and

1162
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: who struggled, and who fought, and even though they're not

1163
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 1: with us, it doesn't mean that they didn't win.

1164
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 2: It means that the system is killing people. And so

1165
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 2: do we.

1166
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 8: Have the curiosity and the courage and the compassion of

1167
01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 8: that woman that walked out on the West Side?

1168
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:04,640
Speaker 2: I got you. Yeah, clear, So that's that's what I

1169
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 2: hope for.

1170
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:09,600
Speaker 1: And I think the way you just so honestly beautifully

1171
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: share your family stories and your book gets us closer

1172
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: to that hope.

1173
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:16,799
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, this is such an honor.

1174
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 4: Thank you, Jessica. Do you want to tell people?

1175
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's going on? How to connect?

1176
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 3: I don't think it'll go up this week, but I'm

1177
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 3: having a few events. I'm going to speak with the

1178
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 3: Stigma the Anti Stigma Project next week. I'm going to

1179
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 3: be in Rhode Island. At the end of the month,

1180
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to be speaking at Columbia University. I'm going

1181
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,719
Speaker 3: to the Portland Book Festival and the Texas Book Festival.

1182
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 3: I'm are gonna go to Houston, to my city of

1183
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 3: birth that I don't remember because I was a baby,

1184
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 3: San Antonio, Texas. I'm very excited. I'm going to be

1185
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 3: doing a lot of things online and yeah, you're gonna

1186
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 3: just see so much more for me, which you can

1187
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 3: keep up. I post everything on my social media basically,

1188
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 3: so I have my account, which i'd love for you

1189
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 3: to follow because I would love to step out of

1190
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 3: Nuava Yorca identity. But I'm always at Noaa Yorca, which

1191
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,760
Speaker 3: is just the Spanish spelling of New York with an

1192
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 3: A at the end Uawa Yorca. And then I'm at

1193
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 3: Jessica Hoppy Author and then that's my website to Jessica

1194
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 3: hoppyauthor dot com. I'll be on the road, so I

1195
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 3: hope to see you all there and the Zinga.

1196
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 2: In New York in New Way About YORKA.

1197
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 1: That's thank you so much for tuning in, And if

1198
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 1: you like this episode, please check out my book on Addiction,

1199
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 1: Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, Available

1200
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, dot Org, Union Scoring Company, Amazon,

1201
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you.

1202
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 1: If you identify as black or brown and have a

1203
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 1: recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that

1204
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 1: you've undone, or a conversation that you you've had about addiction.

1205
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,759
Speaker 1: Send us a voicemail at speak pipe dot com, slash

1206
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 1: you a pod that's speak pipe dot com, slash u

1207
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: a pod