1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session of the Therapy for 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into the conversation after 13 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. Where in your body do 14 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: you carry joy? Isn't that a profoundly beautiful but maybe 15 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: also difficult to answer questions? But it's an important one 16 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: and what I want you to spend some time thinking 17 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: about to help us dig a little deeper into what 18 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: black joy is and why it's important. Today, I'm joined 19 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: by Tracy Michelle Lewis Jiggets, the author of Black Joy, 20 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: Stories of Resistance, Resilience and Restoration. Tracy and I chatted 21 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: about how to get in touch with joy, why joy 22 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: can sometimes be hard to access the importance of black joy, 23 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: particularly when things are difficult, and she shares a beautiful 24 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: excerpt from her book. If something resonates with you while 25 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media 26 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: use the hashtag tv G in session, or join us 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: over in the sister circles To talk more in depth 28 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: about the episode. You can join us at community that 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation. I'm 30 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: so happy to be chatting with you today, Tracy. I 31 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: am so excited to be here, so so excited that 32 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: we will get started. So I'd love for you to 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: tell us to begin by saying a little bit about 34 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: what inspired you to write and release the collection of 35 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: essays that you have in this book. I think the 36 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: initial inspiration was the work that I had been doing 37 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: myself in therapy. I had been working with the therapist 38 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: about grief and trauma and doing some deep trauma work, 39 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: and she posed a question to me that I couldn't answer, 40 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: as therapists are wont to do, which is what does 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: joy feel like in your body? And at the big 42 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: age of forty, something I could not answer her. I 43 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: knew that I'd experienced joy, but I couldn't touch it, 44 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: I couldn't access it. And so that began the long 45 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: work of being intentional, of figuring out what joy felt like, 46 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: in creating moments of joy. And I happened to write 47 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: one essay that I had about joy with my daughter 48 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: in the rain dancing, and that was published, and then 49 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: that began the whole journey to this book. I love then. 50 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: And you've talked people about how connecting with your daughter's 51 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: Joey has really helped you to have a fuller experience. 52 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit more about it? Absolutely? 53 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: She is what I often call the freer version of myself. 54 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: And so there's a lot that in the stuff that 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: I gathered over the years that I learned how to 56 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: tamp down, or parts of myself that I learned to hide, 57 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: that she doesn't have. She doesn't have those boundaries, those fences, 58 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: if you will, And so oftentimes I looked to her 59 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: for liberation and joy can be and it just so 60 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: happens in at one instance, we were trying to stop 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: our greenhouse from flying away in the middle of a storm, 62 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: and it started to rain and she started dancing and 63 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: I started dancing, and it was spontaneous. We were having 64 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: our gen Z gen X battle. And I think at 65 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: that moment to be able to say, oh wow, to 66 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: connect the freedom to the joy that we were having 67 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: in that moment. And so she is my little mirror, 68 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: and I get to see how joy plays out for 69 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: her and how intentional she is so intentional about her joy. 70 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: Every day she writes the things that she really would 71 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: love to do, and she writes in her joys, not 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: her school work, but she writes in make waffles with Mommy, 73 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 1: or writes in I want to go play at the park, 74 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: and she's intentional about it. And it taught me to 75 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: be intentional, like today I am going to dot dot 76 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: dot whatever my joy looks like for that day. I 77 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: love it. So this is me now trying to sneak 78 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: some free parenting advice for you, Tracy, because I often 79 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: feel like they're is a very undue burden on us 80 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: as black parents around how to really protect our kids 81 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: joy right Like, it feels like we have to have 82 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: some very difficult conversations with them. I feel way too early, 83 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: But it is also in their best interest to have 84 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: the conversations early, just around like stuff like racism and stuff, 85 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: and so I would love to hear from you how 86 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: you are working to try to also protect that joy 87 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: for her. I am definitely a work in progress, and 88 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to that, and I have a lot 89 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: of grace for my parents and my grandparents who were 90 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: harder on us because of the fear of what could 91 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: happen once we stepped outside their doors. I don't think 92 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: I've always had that grace, but as a parent now, 93 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: all of those sensations, all those thoughts that I have 94 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: about how they're going to receive her freedom when she 95 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: steps outside my door, it's scary, and so there has 96 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: to be a balance. I mean, we've had racial violence 97 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: hit pretty close to our home, and so I've had 98 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: to have those hard conversations with her about why someone 99 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: thought it was okay to enter a grocery store and 100 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: kill our elder cousin. And that's hard, hard, and it's 101 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: mostly hard because I have not yet worked out my 102 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: own grief around it, and so now I am tasked 103 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: with helping her navigate her grief. And I think the 104 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: biggest thing I don't know if I have parenting advice 105 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: to give, except to say that the communication lines are 106 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: constantly open. And there was one instance where my daughter 107 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: was having a tough day and there wasn't a whole 108 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: lot that I could offer her except hugs and kisses 109 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: and love because she was just not having a good day, 110 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: like like many of us. But I heard her in 111 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: her room, and I happened to be in another part 112 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: of the house, but I heard her saying, I am calm, 113 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: I am safe, I am well, I am calm. She 114 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: was saying it over and over again. And that's a 115 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: mantra that I had taught her, that she'd seen me 116 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: do when I was having a tough day. And so 117 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing is keeping those lines of 118 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: communication open and also trusting that they are listening and 119 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: hearing and taking it in. And that's where I am 120 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: right now with this preteen. It might change in five 121 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: years when she's sixteen. Understandable, understandable. So at the start 122 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: of your book, you feature a Tony Morrison quote, there 123 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: is no time for despair, no place for self pity, 124 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: no need for silence, no room for fear. We speak, 125 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: we write, we do language. That is how civilizations heal, 126 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: which is such a beautiful and powerful quote I love 127 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: to hear. What about that quote resonated with you enough 128 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: for it to be the start of your book? Yeah. 129 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: I think in the moments when I allowed myself to 130 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: sit in the fear of what it would mean to 131 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: put this very intimate collection of stories out into the world, 132 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison's quote and her body of work in general, 133 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: was a reminder of why it was necessary or is necessary, 134 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: because there were moments writing this book where I'm like, oh, no, 135 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: if I should put this out, or I'm giving so 136 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: much of myself in this book in order to talk 137 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: about what joy looks like and how it lives alongside 138 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: all of these other big emotions and feelings we have. 139 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: And I think I had to keep coming back to 140 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: that quote, like we do language like as artists, as writers, 141 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: it is our responsibility, our task, if you will, to 142 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: chronicle document what is going on in our world, and 143 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: also to use the art as a way to help 144 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: people heal as we're navigating whatever it is going on today, 145 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: it's a pandemic and racial unrest. Yesterday it was another thing, 146 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: or it was all those things, And so I think 147 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: that was why It was important for me to open 148 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: the book with that because I want everyone to be 149 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: reminded of that also that this is what we do. 150 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: We do language, We tell the stories, even the ones 151 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: that are very hard to tell. So you have been 152 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: I feel like a lead mean writing machine for like 153 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: the past year plus, right, even though you've been doing 154 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: it much longer. I wonder how this collection of essays 155 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: is different than the other work that you produced this year. 156 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: It's very different, and that I think with this, because 157 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: I was telling so many stories from my own life, 158 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: I felt a kind of liberation on the page that 159 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: I have not felt before. I gave myself permission to 160 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: just tell it, you know, and to be as vulnerable 161 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: as I possibly could not in an effort to spill 162 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: the t all right, or to get back at maybe 163 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: people in my life, but mostly to get it out 164 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: of me right, and also to help other people realize 165 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: that they are not alone in the journey, and that 166 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: joy is still possible as a matter of fact, that 167 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: it is our birthright, and that it can live alongside 168 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: all this other stuff you might be feeling in this moment. 169 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: And so it was very different. Some of the essays 170 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: were it written in different forms prior to the book deal. 171 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: But even going back into the essays that maybe have 172 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: been written in some other form, I still put something 173 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: different on it. I don't even know if I know 174 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: like the language for what that something was. But I 175 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: just came to the page very open to hearing what 176 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: I needed to say. And that's something that I can't 177 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: say I necessarily did in my previous work. Or maybe 178 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: I did in like small doses, but not in like 179 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: this sort of surrendering stance that I had when I 180 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: set aside writing this book. If you feel comfortable sharing, Tracy, 181 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: I can imagine writing a book that feels this personal. 182 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: And you've already talked about like working through some stuff 183 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: with your therapists was just how this whole thing opened up. Also, 184 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: were there are pieces of the book that you found 185 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: yourself writing and then having to go back to your 186 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: therapist to talk about, Like what was that process of 187 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: working with the therapist at the same time as you're 188 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: writing this very personal collection. For sure, my therapist probably 189 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: knows every story in this book, whether she's read or 190 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: or not, because sometimes I would even bring small passages 191 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: to her and we would talk about what it brought 192 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: up in me to write that, and that was very 193 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: helpful because it sometimes when you're writing very intimate details, 194 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: you can get kind of lost in the sauce. And 195 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: so I mean, this still needed to be a book 196 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: that people could gain some It's not prescriptive, but there 197 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: is like an instructive quality to it. So like I 198 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: had to be able to come out of that story 199 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: and be able to say, where is the joy in this? 200 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: How was I able to access it? And that had 201 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: to be a very real thing that I wrote, And 202 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: sometimes I didn't get there until I brought it to 203 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: my therapist. My therapist was very much a integral part 204 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: of this writing process for me. I don't think I 205 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: could have gotten to the end of the book had 206 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: I not had those weekly sessions. I love that. I 207 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: love that it was a supportive place for you to 208 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: work through some of that stuff. Now, looking back, is 209 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: there anything that you left out of the book that 210 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: you now wish you would have put in there. I 211 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: can't say there's anything that I left out, because I 212 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: got a lot in it that I would have put in. 213 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: There are still some essays and chapters that make me 214 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: like a little nervous. I don't think there's anything I 215 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: would have taken out, and I don't think there's anything 216 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: I would put in. There's thirty six essays in the book. 217 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: There were about forty that I wrote, so there were 218 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: some that I held back, But the reasons for that 219 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: were just about the flow of the three movements Resistance, resilience, 220 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: and restoration, and not necessarily about any fear I had 221 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: or anything like that. So I wonder if you can 222 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: just give us a basic definition of what joy looks 223 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: like and feels like to you. So in twenty nineteen, 224 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: I had a severe health crisis that came on the 225 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: heels of my elder cousin being murdered doing a lot 226 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: of racial reconciliation and diversity equity inclusion work on the 227 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: campus where I taught, and my body was just like, listen, 228 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: we're done, sit down. And so for eight months I 229 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: was pretty much in the bed, getting a bunch of 230 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: tests done and all those kinds of things, as I 231 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: was simultaneously going to therapy and doing this work. When 232 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: she asked me that we really focused on the embodiment 233 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: of joy, the somatic experience of joy, And so for me, 234 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: joy and my body feels like this warmth in my chest. 235 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: It feels like like a tingling in my stomach. There's 236 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: the rising excitement that almost gives me goose bumps. Like 237 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: I was very intentional. I keep using that word, but 238 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: I feel like that's appropriate about like really spelling out 239 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: what joy feels like in my body. And so when 240 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: I went back to my therapist and I said, I 241 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: got it, I got it, this is what it feels like, 242 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: She's like, Okay, So now you have a screenshot, a 243 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: snapshot of what joy feels like, so that when those 244 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: other emotions are super big in your body, like rage, 245 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: like grief, you have something you can access it the 246 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: same way if I said, dr Joy, what does anger 247 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: feel like in your body? Most people can answer that 248 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: right like they can tell you or what does sorrow 249 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: feel like? But sometimes it's harder to like pinpoint joy. 250 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,119 Speaker 1: So for me being able to understand what the embodiment 251 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: of joy feels like is step one. Being able to 252 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: call it up is step two for me to be 253 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: able to access it and be like, Okay, I remember 254 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: how I felt when I watched This is Us because 255 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: that's my jam. That's interesting that you described that as joyful, 256 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: because it is great, but it also it's very sad 257 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: at the what you know, the thing is it is 258 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: it's the storytelling, right, Like I'm a writer, so it's like, oh, 259 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: like what are they going need to do? Or they 260 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: go like I get so invested in like how they 261 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: craft the story and that is exciting to me, so 262 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: that if I am having a low day or a 263 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: dark day, I will go to that memory about how 264 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: I felt when Randall did such as such the best 265 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: and I will try to and it works like it 266 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: doesn't take away the grief, it doesn't take away the rage, 267 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: but it kind of right sizes me in that moment, 268 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: so I'm not going off the deep end. And so 269 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: for me, joy is all of those physical the adrenaline, 270 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: the dopamine rush, all of those things. And for me 271 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: as a black woman, it is all those things within 272 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: the context of living in this melan and what that entails, 273 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: which is the reason why black the black on black 274 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: joy really does matter to me. Why do you think 275 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: it is often so difficult for us to recall what 276 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: joy feels like as opposed to really understanding what sorrow 277 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: and grief and all of those things feel like. You know, 278 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: for me, I Honestly, dr Joy got me telling the 279 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: truth here. I think it's because I didn't feel was 280 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: worthy of joy. I think there's a part of me 281 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: that pushed it down, Like I'm not one that believes 282 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: that joy is something we go have to go out 283 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: and find, or that we have to conjure up. Maybe conjure, 284 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: but not in the way that often that's used as 285 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: if it's something outside of us. For me, joy is 286 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: always present with my rage and my grief and my 287 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: love and all those emotions. It's just that I have 288 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: to make room for it. I gotta pack down beneath 289 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: all the other big emotions of rage and grief and sorrow, 290 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: and those are easily accessible. And if you've had enough, 291 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: especially as black people people of color, if you have 292 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: enough experiences and encounters around race, it could feel like 293 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: daily microL aggressions, the constant trauma porn that we see 294 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: on the social media, the constant conflict that we have 295 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: to maybe engage with personally. It could feel so big that, yes, 296 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: I can describe rage because I'm there most of the time. Yes, 297 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: I can describe sorrow because I'm so deeply sad about X, 298 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: Y and Z and enjoy feels like something that is 299 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: not accessible or that we're not worthy of. And for me, 300 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: that's where I went to the therapist. You would take 301 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: me back to a point in time in my childhood 302 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: where like when was the first time you recognize joy? 303 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: You know? And for me, I felt like joy was 304 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: taken from me, and so I have been striving to 305 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: try to make room for it ever since, but in 306 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: really odd and destructive ways. I think, to answer your question, 307 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: the other emotions feel so very present in our bodies 308 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: and in our minds that joy often we either don't 309 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: believe we're worthy of it or we just can't see 310 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: it in the moment. Yeah, you know. The other thing 311 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: that I've run into is people feeling guilty about joy, 312 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: especially when things feel really difficult, like they have for 313 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: like the past two plus years, right, Like, you know, 314 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: there's so much grief, so much sadness, there's war, there's 315 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: so much going on that it often feels guilty for 316 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: people to kind of tap into things that are lighthearted. 317 00:17:58,119 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: But I think it's important for us to remember that 318 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: that is what helps us to flute in the difficult moments. Right, 319 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: Like you talk about like being able to recall a 320 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: scene or something that made you have one of those 321 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: deep belly laughs, like that is important for that reason. Absolutely, 322 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: that guilt piece is huge. I mean I had a 323 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: conversation with someone and they were saying that sometimes they 324 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: feel guilty because their ancestors, their great grandmother didn't have 325 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: the options that they have. You know, our ancestors are 326 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: rooting for us. They want us to have these feelings 327 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: and emotions that maybe they weren't able to tap in. 328 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: And also they knew how to tap into it despite 329 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: you know, like they were the ones that taught us 330 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: the resilience that we now kind of identify with. And so, yeah, 331 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: the guilt piece is huge. I remember, professionally for me 332 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: was a great year And how do I say that? 333 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: How do I say it was a great year for me? 334 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: I cracked down doors and did this. How do I 335 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: say that? Knowing full well that people lost so much 336 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: in that first year of the pandemic, So I get that, Yeah, 337 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: none know you and I have also had conversations around 338 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: how to protect that right, like in what spaces can 339 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: you share? Like I actually had a really good year 340 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: against the backdrop of you know, like so many other 341 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: things going on or people losing their jobs, you know, 342 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: So can you say more about how you also work 343 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: to protect those things that feel joyful to you? Yeah, 344 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I emphasize that I'm 345 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: not just emphasizing this because I'm on therapy for black girls, right, Like, 346 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: therapy is the thing that was my constant reminder, Right 347 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: when I would go off on a tangent about how 348 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: I felt like some friends weren't really able to embrace 349 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: what was happening to me in the moment or whatever, 350 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: she would remind me that I don't have to be 351 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: ashamed of I don't have to hold back, but that 352 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: I can't set boundaries as to who is actually safe 353 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,959 Speaker 1: enough for me to share this joy with. Right And So, 354 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: I think I'm still learning that. I think I'm still 355 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: trying to figure out and be okay with some spaces 356 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: not being the space where I can say all the 357 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: things I'm thinking, all the things I'm feeling. But from 358 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: our conversation, you know, that's where my sister friends come in. 359 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: That's where my girlfriends and the group chat, you know, 360 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: my group chat. Despite what everybody's going on. When the 361 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: book came out, folks, was just like, yo, I was 362 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: in Target. I saw it. I took a picture here 363 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: you go, like people were cheering me on, and so 364 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: that gave me the safety that I maybe could not 365 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: have expressed it somewhere else. More from my conversation with 366 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: Tracy after the Break, you talk a lot in the 367 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 1: book about your relationship with your sister, friends, and your grandmother, 368 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: and your aunties and other black women. I love to 369 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: hear you talk a little bit more about how your 370 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: connections with other black women have been a space for 371 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: joy for you. Absolutely. I think I first observed it 372 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: in my grandmother when I was like two or three 373 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: years old. My grandmother watched me while my mother went 374 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: to work, and she had a girlfriend, Miss Violet, who 375 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: was fabulous. Miss Violet would come over face beat to 376 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: the gods, you know, just like and they would laugh 377 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: and cackle and talk about like young and restless and 378 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: play Stevie Wonder and the Miracles, and they just had 379 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: this dynamic. It's me at forty something, looking back in hindsight, 380 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: I don't think I recognized that two and three that 381 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: what was happening. But now that I know the back stories, 382 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: now that I know what my grandmother might have been 383 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: going through and the stories that are not so great. 384 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: It makes that observation of her girlfriend dynamic like richer 385 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: because I understand that that was her safe space, that 386 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: was the place where she could lay her burden down, 387 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: so to speak. And so for me, that was the 388 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: starting point. And my dynamic with black women over the 389 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: years has always been me seeking that safe experience. And 390 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: sometimes I've had that and sometimes i have not. I 391 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: joint sorority. I've done all of the things that we 392 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: do as black women, but I think it's only been 393 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: within the last decade or so that I can say 394 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: that I've been able to create a craft these relationships 395 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: that feel really safe and really wondrous and all the 396 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: ways that black girl relationships, you know, sisterhoods are and 397 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: I'm grateful for that. You mentioned earlier the importance of 398 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: black on black joy and can you say more about 399 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: what that is? So I get a lot of comments 400 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: from people outside of the culture community, like why do 401 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: you have to put black and race on joy? Why 402 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: can't we just have joy? And the way that I 403 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: clarify that is that are defined it. I guess joy 404 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: is a universe thing that all human beings have access 405 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: to it's our birthright. But black joy is all of 406 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: those wonderful things within the context of the very specific 407 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: experience I have as a black woman Black people have 408 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: in this country, in this world. I don't choose to 409 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: ignore the residue of the Transatlantic slave trade or drum 410 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: Crow or any of these things that we've experienced. And 411 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: what I learned was and what was exciting about writing 412 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: this book, was that our ancestors been knowing right like 413 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: they've been knowing how to access that joys that old him, 414 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: This joy I have, the world didn't give it in 415 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: the world can't take it away, this undercurrent of joy 416 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: even when Black happiness wasn't accessible. And I make the 417 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: distinction in the book between happiness and joy, like happiness 418 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: is this temporary, momentary thing sometimes it's external, right, whereas 419 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: joy is undercurrent that's can be always be present, even 420 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: when the situation of the circumstances aren't particularly happy. And 421 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: our ancestors understood that, and they understood how to move 422 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: those more traumatic experiences through their body. They would rock 423 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: back and forth in church, they would wind and do 424 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: they think at the juke joint like they like all 425 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: of these ways. They just didn't have the language of 426 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: bilateral stimulation or you know, I moved that these they 427 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: didn't have that, but they intuitively understood that joy was theirs. 428 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: They could access it and nobody could take it from them. 429 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: And if that meant hand games on the plantation where 430 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: they got touch and intimacy in a way that wasn't 431 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: exactly seen as that, then that's what they did, right. 432 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: And so the black on black joy matters because it's 433 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: a particular and distinct experience in context that lives outside 434 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: of the general experience. Yeah, and I think we see 435 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: it in so many different forms now, right, Like I 436 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: think the the clearest example is like the jokes from 437 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: black Twitter. Anytime something ridiculous happens, right like it, it's 438 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: very much like this shared language. And you know, I 439 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: live for those days because you know, the memes are 440 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: gonna be so hilarious. So I think that there are 441 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: some very particular ways that we continue to do that 442 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: with one another. Absolutely, it's distinct there, like that can't 443 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: be duplicated in any other realm, what black Twitter does 444 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: with like Thanksgiving at a black family, right, and like 445 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: how we have like we all have different experiences, but 446 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: somehow there's this thread. Black people aren't monolithic, but we 447 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: know blackness when we see it, and like that's what's 448 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: being pulled through those tweets, pulled through all of the 449 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: memes and stuff, like it feels like community even though 450 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: it's big and it's global and all that. So, how 451 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: do you want people to understand and engage with black joy? 452 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: Good question. I think I want people to read this 453 00:25:53,640 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: book and decide that or maybe even just understand that 454 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: the pathway to healing is very much connected to how 455 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: we experience or access our joy. And so I have 456 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: these three movements, like black joy is resistance, resilience, and restoration. 457 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: But the biggest chunk of the book is around resilience, 458 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: and restoration is around healing, is around like if we 459 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: never saw the issue of racism and our black joy 460 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: as far as it being something that we wield as 461 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: resistance takes a long time for us to see like 462 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: the fruit of that it is immediately an opportunity for 463 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: us to heal from some of the traumatic things that 464 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: we experience as black people. And so I think I 465 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: want us who read this to begin that work of 466 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: identifying what joy feels like in their body and being 467 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: able to call it up and then being intentional about 468 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: writing in their joy and making it a priority because 469 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: it expands you. Joy makes you bigger, so that the 470 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: rage and the grief and the other stuff can't take 471 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: as much space because you've made room in your body 472 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: and in your mind and your heart and your spirit 473 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: for joy to take up more space. Right, But there's 474 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: work that you have to do up to that point. 475 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: And so that's what I hope, and you know, for 476 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: those who don't identify as black, I tell a story 477 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: to describe what I hope for non black readers, and 478 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: that is that when I lived in Philadelphia, we used 479 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: to go to a Greek festival and we love me 480 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: my husband and my daughter love this Greek festival. The dancing, 481 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: the food was delicious. We enjoyed it so much. But 482 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: we never decided to take the stage and dance alongside them. 483 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: We never told the person who was making the back 484 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: leavibe that maybe they should add a little bit more 485 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: this or that to it. We simply sat in the 486 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: presence of this cultural experience, enjoyed it, ate well, you know, laughed, 487 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: but we didn't try to say to ourselves in that experience. 488 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: And so That's what I hope for non black readers, 489 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: because there are some universal themes around joy that they 490 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: can gather, but that also that they can sit in 491 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: admiration of how our joy shows up. More from my 492 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: conversation with Tracy after the break, so you already have 493 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: reference that we've been knowing kind of thing. And so 494 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: chapter eight of your book is called We've Always Known 495 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: Black Somatic Experiencing. And before you give us a treat 496 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: and read a little bit from that chapter, I love 497 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: to hear why you felt like it was important to 498 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: write about the ways that our bodies intersect and interact 499 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 1: with trauma. I think first and foremost because I had 500 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: a very distinct experience when I was sick for those 501 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: eight or nine months. The one thing that held me down, 502 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: once I had exhausted all the movies on Netflix, I 503 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: started watching stand up comedy shows back to back. I 504 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: mean random people I would have never watched before. But 505 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: it was something about like the laughter. Every day I 506 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: turn on one or two stand up comedy specials and 507 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: I would laugh, and in those moments I felt better, 508 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: the pain was less, and so I began to recognize 509 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: the power of my laughter and humor. And Joy in 510 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: that moment, and so I knew that I had to 511 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: talk about it. But one thing I didn't want to 512 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: do was to position it like it was something new, 513 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: Like it was like, Oh, I have this big revelation 514 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: about Joy. And as I began to do research, I realized, no, 515 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: my ass has been knowing this, like this is the 516 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: basis of how we've survived and thrived since we've been 517 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: brought to these shores. And so that was like the 518 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: main two reasons I think that I wanted to write 519 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: about it. So will you read us? I will. So 520 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 1: I just talked to you about doing the research and 521 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: like trying to understand how I was processing my own trauma, 522 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: but then also like how our ancestors had been knowing, 523 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: And so that's where I'll start here. I learned about 524 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: the real ways disease is fueled by trauma. I could 525 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: finally connect the dots between the PTSD. I already lived 526 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: with the breaknet speed at which I was working the 527 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: racial violence that had recently touched my family and my 528 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: body's complete breakdown. But before I could throw a pity 529 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: party and cry out why me, I shifted my reading 530 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: and conversations to the ways in which the body can 531 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: also restore itself, the way movement and meditation can shift 532 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: the nervous system back into a healing state, And it 533 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: all sounded incredibly familiar. Everything I was uncovering was made 534 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: real in the stories that here of late night country joints, 535 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: where the swaggy twists and lusty grinding of bodies to 536 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: the rhythm of their blues gave an inexplicable relief to 537 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: a people who held back their grief out of fear 538 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: of white terror and disregard. It was made real in 539 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: my memories of church ladies rocking back and forth front 540 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: and back in the black churches of my child hood, 541 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: the way they stomped a hole in the floor and 542 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: screamed out and pure elation or agony, depending on the Sunday. 543 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: I've come to realize that they instinctually knew how to 544 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: move that trauma out of our bodies. We gravitated to 545 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: things like dance and sports and music, not just because 546 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: that's what white folks allowed us access to, not just 547 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: because we were forced at one point to entertain them, 548 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: but because in a way it was our saving grace. 549 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: It was physiologically the way we healed ourselves, and maybe 550 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: that's how we were able to not only survive with 551 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: our humanity intact, but also retain our joy. There's something 552 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: about the old hymns, the way those mothers of the 553 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: church was swayed to a beat provided by Sunday shoes 554 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: and wooden canes. It's like they knew. They didn't have 555 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: the fancy language, the academic jargon for it. They didn't 556 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: do any research on somatic experiencing and how moving the 557 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: body in certain ways can help alter how trauma functions 558 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: in the body or move it out entirely. They didn't 559 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: study polyvagel theory or read The Body keeps the Score, 560 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: So they didn't tell folks that the quivering of their 561 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: lips or the rocking side to side was creating bilateral stimulation, 562 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: which would later be proven the calmer person experiencing trauma 563 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: related anxiety. They just had the song, the rhythm, the 564 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: meditation that came in the form of a repeated chorus 565 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: or ad lib, the call and response that allowed them 566 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: not only to talk back, but also to talk it 567 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: out and then talking it out, even in vague Hallelujah's 568 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: or Dubia's let him use You they didn't have to 569 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: hold it. The pew was the canvas that could hold 570 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: whatever they left there. They knew. Now, when you said 571 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: you were gonna read an excerpt, I did not know 572 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: that you were gonna give us a word and a 573 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: servant on this yere gay beautiful. And you know, and 574 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: as you were reading before you would get to the 575 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: part about like poly Vego theory, I'm thinking of this right, like, oh, 576 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: this is what this is, right, And you've already said 577 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: we have been doing this before we had language for this, right, 578 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: And so when we talk about like all these new 579 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: age healing practices, they're really nuns a new age because 580 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: we've had them all along, Like our ancestors have given 581 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: this to us and have demonstrated this for us, and 582 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: we're really just kind of tapping back into it. Absolutely, 583 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: And I want us to connect the dots, right. I 584 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: want us to understand that what we're doing now with 585 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: this idea of therapy, which back then was the kitchen 586 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: table or the salon, right, you know that this isn't new, 587 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: and that our ancestors are like, go run on, I 588 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: get hell gone, baby, you know that's what they're saying 589 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: to us. I mean that it's okay, we don't have 590 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: to feel guilty. M M. So, at what point, Tracy, 591 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: did you notice that the experiences you were having in 592 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: terms of like the headaches and the triggers and the 593 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: things in your body, At what point did you know 594 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: that those were connected to dramatic experiences. Honestly, I did 595 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: not know until I was on the table of an 596 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: acupuncturist getting what I thought would be just acupuncture services 597 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: for pain, right, like just helped me manage the pain 598 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: of what I was going through. And my acupuncturists took 599 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: the needle, and I've been getting acupuncture, so I wasn't 600 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: scared of the needles or anything like that. And she 601 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: put a needle right near the clavicle or like around 602 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: my shoulder. And when she put the needle in, I 603 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: immediately wailed. I cried, I sobbed, And it's funny to 604 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: talk about it now because I was sobbing. But I 605 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: was also like looking at her, like what's going on. 606 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: What's happening to me? I don't know what's happening. And 607 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: so that was the first time she said this is 608 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: common that sometimes people I will hit the point and 609 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 1: people will cry because there may even been some trauma 610 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: or something that was trapped in the body. And that 611 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: was the first time I had talked about it, I 612 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 1: had read about it. I you know, I said, oh, yeah, 613 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: mind body connection. But that made it so real to 614 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: me that there was something in my body that needed 615 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: to be let out. And I cried so hard. But 616 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: when I got finished crying, I felt such a huge relief. 617 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 1: So that was the first moment. Yeah, and You've already 618 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: given us such a beautiful excerpt in there other examples 619 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: in the book of you running so colorfully about like 620 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: dance and church experiences and all of those things. Can 621 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: you stay a little bit more about, like how movement 622 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: and different kinds of practices help you to address story trauma, 623 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: Like what kinds of things do you do well? What 624 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm doing right now, which is very It seems so simple, 625 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: but it's not easy for me. As I'm walking daily, 626 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: I felt like this call I guess to walk, but 627 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: I would do it for like a week and then 628 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: stop for like some months. But what I'm finding is 629 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: the walking and my therapist that's bilateral stimulation. Your legs 630 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: are moving back and forth. I felt such a calm. 631 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 1: It was almost like a meditation for me. Yoga has 632 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: been extremely helpful with moving stuff around in my body 633 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: and dancing. Like me and my daughter we get fit 634 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: in okay, so we'll turn on something. She knows all 635 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: the songs from the nineties right because she has Old Mama, 636 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: So you know, we will dance and break it down. 637 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: And I find that the movement is so healing for me. 638 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because on the other side of it, 639 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: it's stillness. So the two things that feel very healing 640 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: for me and allows me to be able to make 641 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: room for joy in my life to feel very opposite. 642 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: It is movement and it is stillness and being okay 643 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: with the quiet in my mind as well as around me. 644 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: And I move just to get the quiet, like I'm 645 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: determined to maintain stillness, but at the same time, movement, 646 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, has been an important part of that. Also. 647 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: So you talked earlier, Tracy about protecting your joy and 648 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: like how only certain people can hold up for you. 649 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: And you also wrote in the book about choosing joy 650 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: might mean leaving a place or a person that no 651 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: longer serves you. And I think that this is something 652 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: that we often hear blank women talk about at least 653 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: a little bit more common only now, which really is 654 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: kind of setting boundaries, right. But I'm curious to hear 655 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 1: like what that process has been like for you, because 656 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: it feels very easy to kind of say, but I 657 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: think it's much more difficult in practice. So can you 658 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: say a little bit about what that's been like for you? 659 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: Much more difficult? It's very challenge me. I am a 660 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: clingy person, you know, or my personality is one that 661 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: wants to hold on. And that's for all the nouns person, people, places, 662 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: and things. Right on the flip side of that, I 663 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: think that I've also been one of those type of 664 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: people that does things afraid. So even though there's fear 665 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: around letting something go or leaving a place, there's also 666 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: been a very if I have a clear call or 667 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: understanding that I need to do a thing, I'll do 668 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: it despite that fear, despite what I might be feeling 669 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: in that moment. So that's everything from leaving Louisville, Kentucky 670 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: at twenty one with three hundred dollars in my pocket 671 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: and a budget rental van filled with my grandmother's furniture 672 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: and moving to Chicago. This outside of Chicago with the 673 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: hopes of something I don't even know what I was 674 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: hoping for. And so the migrations, my own personal migrations 675 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: that I've had has been all about being willing to 676 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: let go even when I didn't want to. With people. 677 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: It's much more challenging for me because I tend to 678 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: want to extend grace and give people the benefit of doubt, 679 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: and also me recognizing that sometimes letting go isn't about 680 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: this person did a bad thing to me. It's sometimes 681 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: it is just about it's time that the relationship has 682 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: reached its natural end or it's natural pause. One of 683 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: the thing that I talked about, choosing joy might mean leaving, 684 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: but it also does not necessarily mean that you won't return. 685 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: And so me leaving Louisville and then I came back 686 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: twentyso five years later to kind of make peace with 687 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: some of the reasons why I left. But I had 688 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: to be ready for that right, We have to be 689 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: ready for that return piece of it. So, yeah, I'm 690 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: glad that's the conversation that Black women nowadays are more 691 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: willing to set those boundaries because we've needed to. We 692 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: hold up, you know, our mothers and our grandmothers and 693 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,959 Speaker 1: our great aunties for like sticking it out and holding on. 694 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: We don't often realize is that they had different choices, 695 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: and sometimes they didn't have the choices. They lived during 696 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: the time where a woman couldn't even get a bank account, 697 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: couldn't even buy a home, right, And so I would 698 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: argue that great grandmother's like, girl, you better gone. You 699 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: know I couldn't, but you can go. Yeah. So, as 700 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: we wrap up, I want to do some kind of 701 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: rapid fire but not super rapid fire questions, just to 702 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: kind of close us out. So how do we translate 703 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: resistance to joy? It's when we are strategically wielding our 704 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: joy for a greater purpose. Right. So the example is 705 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: the protest of Summer. In the midst of like confrontation, 706 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: there was also laughter and singing, and it's a defiance 707 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: like you, this is a part of my humanity you 708 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: can't take away from me. How do we translate resilience? 709 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: That's that bounce back thing that black foles just have, right, Like, 710 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: we have had the worst done to us and yet 711 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: we're still here, right, which means that individually we all 712 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: have the power to come back from, overcome, transform whatever 713 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: challenges we might have, and how do we translate restoration? 714 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: Restoration is all about healing, and so there is this 715 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: power that joy has to soothe, to calm, to help 716 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: us see bigger than the problems that might be ever present, 717 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: you know, And so it is a mechanism for healing 718 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: whatever it is that we might be going through. And 719 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: what words of advice or encouragement do you have for 720 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,879 Speaker 1: people who feel like they haven't tapped into the joy 721 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: in their lives? I would say that it's okay. Number one, 722 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 1: grace yourself and understand that you've been surviving and that's okay, 723 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: but now we want to move past survival into a 724 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: life of intention and agency and all those joy has 725 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: never left you. You just have to do the work 726 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: of digging it up and accessing it. But it's not 727 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: out there. It's still very much in you, beautiful And 728 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: where can we find you, Tracy? And where can we 729 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: find a copy of Black Joy? Black Joy is available 730 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: everywhere books are sold, preferably black owned independent bookstores. If 731 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: you can an entry point to finding me as Tracy 732 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: M Lewis dot com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter and 733 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: Facebook as t MLG writer or T m. Lewis, and 734 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: that's where you can get perfectly. We will be sure 735 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: to include all of that in the show notes. Thank 736 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me, Tracy. I'm so glad 737 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,320 Speaker 1: Tracy was able to share her expertise with us today. 738 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: To learn more about her and to grab a copy 739 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: of her book, be sure to visit the show notes 740 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to 741 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: and be sure to text two of your girls and 742 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode right now. If 743 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure 744 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black 745 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to 746 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community 747 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in 748 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet 749 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: designed just for black women. You can join us at 750 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. This episode 751 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: was produced by Freda Lucas and Alice Ellis and editing 752 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank you all so much 753 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. A little forward to 754 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take 755 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: it care