WEBVTT - Deep Dive: Oakmont 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.480 Oakmont Country Club is hosting the US Open for the 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.840 tenth time. Let's dive deep. I'm Garrett Morrison and this 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:18.280 is designing golf, all right, Joseph, how you doing. I'm 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:19.200 doing great, Garrett. 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:21.560 A lot to chew on with Oakmont Country Club in 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.040 this upcoming US Open, so I'm excited to get your perspective. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.960 Yes, I'm here with Joseph Lamania, my Friday golf colleague. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.760 We're going to do a bit of an Oakmont country 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.960 Club deep dive in this episode. So we have some 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.479 stuff prepared. We've both done a little bit of research 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.279 in our kind of separate analytical areas, mine more in 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.880 history and architecture, and yours kind of based on how 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.760 the pros might play this course in the upcoming US Open. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.239 So basic plan for this episode is to first talk 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.640 about some history. I have an interview with David Moore, 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.400 who is the curator of collections at Oakmont Country Club, 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:05.040 where we talk about the early years of this course essentially. 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:07.520 Then we'll come back to me and Joseph to talk 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.360 about architecture, how it will play for the pros or 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.920 how we expected to play for the pros, and then 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.760 we'll finish up with some holes to watch, but just 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.840 to start off with some basics here. The golf course 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:24.440 at Oakmont Country Club was originally designed by Henry C. Phones. 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:29.320 Construction started in nineteen o three, and the course opened 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.399 in October nineteen o four. Initially, the course played to 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.800 sixty four hundred yards, which was a lot for that period, 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.080 to a par of eighty. Over the next few decades, 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.200 Henry Phones collaborated with his son William C. Phones and 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.960 greenkeeper Emil Loffler on continual revisions of the golf course. 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.000 The golf course was basically in a constant state of 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.600 flux over its first few decades. A lot of their 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.600 work involved adding, so that by the mid nineteen thirties 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.560 the course had well over three hundred bunkers, more than 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.480 there are today in fact, but with just a few exceptions, 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:16.400 Oakmont's routing and greens have remained essentially intact since nineteen 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.600 oh four, which is incredible. Oakmont has hosted three PGA Championships, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:26.280 two US Women's Opens, six US Amateurs, and next week's 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.840 US Open, as I mentioned in my introduction, will be 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.560 its tenth. It is a USGA anchor site, and there's 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:38.040 a good argument that Oakmon is the quintessential US Open 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.920 golf course. It is what you think of when you 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.520 think of a US Open venue, But it's also a 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.960 strange golf course in many ways. Like all really great 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.120 golf courses, Oakmont seems to belong to its own genre. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.480 It's hard to imitate, and there aren't many courses like it, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.839 and we'll dig into some of those features that set 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.640 it up part in this episode. Part of our intention 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.440 here is not just to say the usual things that 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.920 are said about Oakmont. Yes, it's hard. Yes there's a 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.320 big church pews bunker on the third hole and another 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.520 one on the fifteenth hole that are kind of interesting 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.560 to look at look at, but we're going to go 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.480 deeper than that. I have recently played this course, and 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.320 Joseph has a way of finding things about golf courses 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.960 that other people don't really see. So my hope is 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.080 that we'll be able to say some new things about 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:34.160 Oakmont and offer some new understandings about this course in 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.600 the process of going deep on it. But before diving 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.640 into the architecture itself, we're going to hear a bit 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.560 about Oakmont's early history, who Henry and William Phones were 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:48.080 and how the course came to be. And for that 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.360 I'm bringing in David Moore, who, as I said earlier, 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.800 as the curator of collections at Oakmont. Really good guy, 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.040 very fun to talk to. So let's go to that 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:07.920 interview now, all right, So, David, any story about Oakmont 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.160 needs to start with the story of the Phones family. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.720 Could you just start off by telling me about Henry C. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:15.800 Phones who he was? 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.720 For sure? So Henry Phones was born here in Pittsburgh 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.360 in eighteen fifty six, and like the majority of the 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.839 Gilded Age millionaires here in Pittsburgh, he made his fortunes 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.960 in iron and steel, and Henry and his brother owned 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.760 a company called the Kerry Furnace Company, which was a 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.039 big blast furnace that produced about at its peak about 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.839 twelve hundred tons of steel a day along the Monongah 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.520 Halo River, And in fact, it became so profitable that 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.440 he sold it to Andrew Carnegie in eighteen ninety eight, 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.840 and then, of course Carnegie sold Carnegie Steel to JP 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.000 Morgan to create US Steel a couple of years later. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.640 But this made Henry Phones an incredibly wealthy man at 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.680 a relatively young age. He was only in his mid 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.000 fourth parties at the time of the sale of the 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.080 carry furnace, and it's right around this time eighteen ninety 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.360 eight where he really starts to get into golf. He 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.560 had been introduced to it a couple of years earlier 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.960 by another steel magnet in the Pittsburgh area named John Moorehead. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.520 But by the time we get to the turn of 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:23.360 the twentieth century, there you know, Phones is a die hard. 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.279 You know, he's a golf sicco for lack of a 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:26.800 better term. 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.440 And he had a son, right, William C. 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.200 Correct, Yeah, actually Henry had a couple kids, but W. C. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:36.360 Phones, William C. 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.719 Phones Junior, was definitely the best player in the family. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:41.719 W C. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:46.040 Phones, like his father, went into the steel business and 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.960 was truly one of the best players in American golf 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.000 in the first twenty five thirty years of the game. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.120 You know, when you look at the amateur ranks, you'll 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.320 let Bobby Jones at the top, Jerum Travers, Chick Evans, 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.680 and Francis we met there, and then that next tier down, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.719 you know, WC. Phones could definitely be in that group. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.680 He won the nineteen ten US Amateur at the country 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.840 club he played in nineteen US Amateurs and you know, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.800 more often than not finished in the quarterfinals or semifinals 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:18.760 before he got eliminated. He won eight Western Pennsylvania Amateurs, 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.039 which was a record until just two years ago. He 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:25.120 won four Pennsylvania Amateurs, two West penn Opens and really 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.080 was the catalyst behind the creation of the Walker Cup. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.120 And he captained the first US Walker Cup team in 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.240 nineteen twenty two, and you know, by that point he 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.360 was kind of more on the administrative side of the game. 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.160 In twenty four and twenty five he was the vice 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.880 president of the USGA, and then in twenty six and 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.719 twenty seven, nineteen twenty six and nineteen twenty seven he 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.279 was the president of the USGA. So, you know, the 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.559 Phones family has a long history with not only championship golf, 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.400 but you know championship golf with the USGA. 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.440 So major figures in the early American game. These were 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.000 the founders of Oakmont. How did it come about that 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.800 they decided to found a golf club in Pittsburgh. 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.560 So, as I mentioned, Henry was, you know, he was 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.640 truly a golf sicco. You know, he gets introduced to 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.360 the game in eighteen ninety four and then I always 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.520 tell the story of Oakmont. It starts with what we 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.680 call the great misdiagnosis. So right after the sale of 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.760 the carry furnace, somewhere in eighteen ninety eight, eighteen ninety nine, 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.680 nineteen hundred. We've never been exactly able to nail down 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:34.960 the exact year. But Henry was welding a bicycle tire 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.120 back together in his garage. He was a big bicycle 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.440 guy and eventually became a big car guy too, in 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.400 the early you know years of motor vehicles. And he 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.760 was welding a bicycle tire back together when he noticed 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.600 he developed spots in his vision, and he went to 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.600 a doctor and he was incorrectly diagnosed, as we'd find out, 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.120 with arteriosclerosis, which is, you know, essentially heart disease. And 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.120 in nineteen hundred, this is a death sentence. He's given 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.120 maybe you know, a year to two years to live. So, 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.559 you know, he takes the news and stride. He sells 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.520 off a lot of his business interests, and it's during 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.680 that period that he goes and travels to Scotland and 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.640 Ireland and plays you know, all the classic Lynks courses. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.000 You know, he plays the old course in Preswick and 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.480 Musselborow and you know, the true pillars of the game, 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.520 at least in Lynks Golf. And you know, he returns 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.320 home from that trip and he notices the spots in 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.280 his vision have started to disappear. So he goes to 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.240 the doctor and he sees a different doctor this time, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.560 and he was diagnosed this time with and correctly diagnosed 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.800 with welders flash and essentially, you know, given this brand 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:42.920 new lease on life, he'd lived for another thirty five 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.440 or so years, you know, and at this point, Henry's 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.079 in his mid forties. He was already flushed with cash 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.360 after selling the carry furnace to Carnegie, and you know, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.560 he sold off the rest of his business interests after 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.280 the diagnosis. So he's got the money, he's got the time. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:03.200 So you know, he really started to become more of 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.240 a golfer and play more. And the courses that were 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.319 in Pittsburgh at the time just weren't the difficult test 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.200 that Henry wanted. You know, he wanted to play somewhere 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.920 that would test him on every single shot. And you know, 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.760 no offense to the courses that were available at that time, 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.800 and all of them have since evolved into some of 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.880 the best courses in western Pennsylvania. But at the time, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.440 you know, early American golf was pretty primitive and those 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.959 courses were rather primitive. So you know, the discussion went 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.480 from trying to find the best golf course, too, well, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:37.800 why don't we create. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:38.400 The best golf course. 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.400 And that process really kind of started in nineteen oh two, 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.959 and by the following spring they found this property here 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:51.040 in Oakmont and partially in Oakmont, partially in Plumborough, and 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.559 the original one hundred ninety one acres of the golf 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.680 course was purchased by a corporation that Henry Form called 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.640 the Oakmont Land Company. Essentially, he sold, you know, five 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.240 hundred dollars shares to all of his friends and he 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.000 and his family bought the majority of them, and for 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.480 seventy eight five hundred dollars they purchased the golf course, 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:15.240 which was about three million today. And Oakmond Country Club 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.600 is officially established in June of nineteen oh three. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.240 What was the land before it was a golf club, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.920 so it was all farmland, you know, I mean, you know, 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.440 you got to remember when you talk about country club 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.720 in this era, you know, you truly were out in 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:30.559 the country here. 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.600 You know, today it's more built up for anybody that's 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.800 been here, you know, like you know, Oakmond Town is 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:39.280 you know, a pretty pretty big little town and you 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:40.360 know everything around. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.640 Is a suburb, but it's but it's densely developed for sure. 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.720 Yeah, and really all of Pittsburgh is that way now. 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.320 So but you know, in nineteen oh three, you were 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.400 truly out in the sticks, you know, in Oakmond and 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:54.720 even though you were only really you know, maybe ten 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.280 miles up the Alleghany from the center of the city. 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.400 So you know, it was all farmland. It was all 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.960 rolling farmland. And you know that that was the property 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.760 that Henry purchased, and he felt it was suitable to 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.240 build a championship golf course on. 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.760 It's a browny piece of land. Yeah, it must have 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.760 been slightly intimidating at the time to build a golf 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.199 course on such a piece of land because there are 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.160 parts of it that are pretty severe. Tell me about 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.880 the construction of the course, what methods were used to 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:26.080 create golf there. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.080 So Henry was definitely inspired by that trip to to 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.120 Great Britain, you know, playing the old you know, the 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.560 classic Scottish links courses. Really kind of created the idea 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.640 of what Henry wanted for his own golf course, so 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.440 that played a huge role in the design. And you know, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.440 fortunately the piece of property had was pretty wide open 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.240 to begin with a lot more rolling terrain than you 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.959 would find in your you know, traditional links course of 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.080 that time. But you know, it was wide open and 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.760 he had all these natural undulations that he could use 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.960 to create these green complexes and everything else, you know, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.679 and truly, you know, I think Robert Trent Jones kind 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.160 of gets the you know, the moniker of being the 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.160 father of penal design, but you know, you could really 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.200 argue that it was Henry phones because you know, what 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:21.120 he wanted to create was this Darwinnian test of golf. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.560 You know, man versus course hit the perfect shot or 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.720 be punished for it. And you know it's the only 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.720 golf course he ever designed in his life. And you know, 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:32.920 we gotta give him a ton of credit. He hit 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:37.720 a grand slam on the first pitch, and you know, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.000 it truly is a testament to you know, his his 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.080 vision and his understanding that you know, he wasn't a 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.400 professional architect and he was a quality player, but he 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.520 wasn't on the same level as you know, say a 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.920 Tilling Haster or Ceb McDonald that you know, we're building 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:57.480 golf courses at the same time. And you know, he 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.240 went out and with a team of one hundred and 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:03.400 fifty men and two horses and hand dug this golf course. 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.520 You know, they didn't manipulate the land like they do today, 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.800 and you know, create a hilly terrain out of a 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.920 flat piece of ground or vice versa. What was in 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:13.959 front of him was what Henry worked with, and he 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.959 just brilliantly created this golf course on these rolling hills 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.720 here in western Pennsylvania. And what you said, you know, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.600 perfectly sums it up. It's it's a pretty interesting piece 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.119 of terrain. You know, you're kind of on a hillside 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.200 and some aspects, but it doesn't feel that way. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.520 M Yeah, because the routing is constantly doing different things 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.840 with the two hillsides that the course essentially sits on 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.400 a very interesting routing, which I'll get to later in 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.760 this podcast. A quote that a lot of people will 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.080 hear the week of the US Open that sort of 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:53.840 is presented as a summation of Phones's philosophy of design, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.920 is a shot poorly played, is a shot irrevocably lost? 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.520 You'll hear different pronunciations of irrevocably or irrevocably, but in 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.719 any case, that's the that's the saying. Yep. I want 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.000 to dig into that a little bit. He doesn't mean 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:13.240 that the ball should be literally lost, right. He means 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.400 that a shot should be lost if the previous shot 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.600 is poorly played. Do I have that right? Correct? Yeah? 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.160 I mean again, what would Henry phones is really the 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.240 father penal design? It was hit the perfect golf shot 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:29.320 or be punished for it. 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.000 You know, so if. 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.080 You know, there were stories around the club that you know, 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.760 Henry would sit on the porch every day and watch 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.160 play and if he saw a player hit a shot 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.200 you know, into the rough and they were able to 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.320 get it out and you know, up onto the green 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.800 and have a birdie putter, you know, escape without too 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:50.800 much consequence. You know, the next day there would be 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:52.400 a bunker there, or there would be a ditch there 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.440 or something. They would create some sort of obstacle to 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.960 make sure that you know, you were punished going forward. 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.760 And you know, I mean that was the way this 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.600 golf course really got its teeth. 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:03.960 You know. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.560 The one interesting thing that Henry did from the onset 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.280 that you know was really rather ingenious on his part 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.160 is he was good friends with Corbyn Haskell, who created 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.960 the very four first rubber core golf ball, so you know, 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.040 which was creating an achron which is you know, a 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.600 mere ninety minutes from here. So that was a huge 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.600 catalyst when he built his golf course because he knew 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.600 if he built it to be longer than any other 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.240 course on the planet at the time, he would you know, 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.720 he would have enough time for you know, technology to 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.040 kind of catch up. And you know that that was 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.400 pretty brilliant. So it opens at sixty four hundred and 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.840 six yards and you know, for the Open now here, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.160 it'll play about seventy three seventy four hundred yards total, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.520 so it's only about a thousand yards longer than it 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.840 was when Henry first opened it. In the first US 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.680 Open in nineteen twenty seven, played at sixty nine hundred yards, 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.640 so they haven't adee for a distance in a century, 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.240 you know, for the pros, So you know, the distance 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.360 was always the big thing. But the thing that makes 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.440 this golf course so difficult are the green complexes. And 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.000 I mean you've played it. You know, hitting into these greens, 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.760 you have to hit the precise shot to have any 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.640 good chance of scoring. And even if you do, once 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.800 you're onto greens, they're so fast, there's so much undulation. 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.760 You have to hit then the perfect putt to hole 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.280 out or at least make you know, two putt for par, 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.200 you know, And that is what Henry wanted, That's what 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.160 his son wanted. You know, when they when they made 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.040 this place what it was, it was meant to be 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.880 the hardest golf course on the planet. It was meant 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.880 to be for the best players and to you know, 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.080 to test the best players in the world. And that's why, 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.120 you know, here we are, it's a hundred year almost 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.440 one hundred years later, we're hosting our tenth US Open 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.480 and our twenty first National Championship, and you know, the 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.720 best of the best tend to win here at Oakmont. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:51.640 And I think the big reason why is they're the 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:56.160 ones that can navigate that that design the best and 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.960 you know, they hit the perfect shot, and they don't, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:01.440 I'll revlicably lose it. 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:10.080 So what's so remarkable about this history is how early 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.960 it is in the development of American golf. Architecture nineteen 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.639 oh three nineteen oh four. The course open in nineteen 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.520 oh four, was built mostly in nineteen oh three. Was 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:26.440 so early. This was seven eight years before National Golf 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:31.440 Links opened. This was more than a decade before Pine 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:37.600 Valley was anywhere near being completed. Those are considered kind 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.760 of the founding golf courses of modern American golf architecture, 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.080 National Golf Links in Pine Valley and Marion to an extent, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.760 Marion was built around the same time. Those courses all 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:53.080 came later, though way later. Nineteen oh three nineteen oh four, 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.000 the best courses in the US were considered to be 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:02.600 Garden City Golf Club, Myopia, Hunt Club, maybe Equanic Up 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.520 in New Hampshire would get mentioned from time to time 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.160 as one of the better golf courses in the United States. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.440 There are really no rivals for Oakmont in this era. 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.200 And I don't know if I have a question here, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.720 but just how remarkable is it that this course dates 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.639 back to nineteen oh three? How different was it from 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.639 all the other courses around it in America at the 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:27.879 time or even in the world. 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.080 Yeah, I mean, that's the thing that's just so fascinating 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.960 about it. And again I think the reason why even 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.240 to this day where it won't play as the longest 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.520 US Open venue. In fact, it's probably one of the 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.439 shorter ones, especially in the recent years. But you know, 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.120 what Henry created and and what they know perfected over 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:53.919 the next twenty thirty years of their involvement here was 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.600 creating this masterpiece. You know, like you said, you know 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.840 what we think think of the best modern architecture was 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.879 you know, National Golf Links in Pine Valley and then 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.800 later Augusta, you know, created by you know, some of 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.439 the best minds in golf architecture there ever was. And 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.960 you know, again Henry was an amateur, just like Hugh Wilson, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.920 just like George Crump. You know, he wasn't in CB 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.440 McDonald two for that matter, but you know he didn't 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:27.639 have the pedigree of play that those guys did. So 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.600 I think it's just you know, a real testament to 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.919 him that you know, he learned so much from what 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.920 he saw at those great links courses over over in 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.080 Great Britain, in Scotland, and you know he was able 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.600 to take some of those elements and put it in 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.359 here and then you know, create the bunkers to be penal, 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.000 but you know, give you an opportunity if you did 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.240 hit the perfect shot. And you know, but the fact 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.359 that he was really kind of ten years ahead of 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:57.080 everybody else is really truly remarkable. And you know, again, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.280 I think it's a testament to why this place is 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.320 still what it is is, you know, one hundred and 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.280 twenty years later, is you know what he was able 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:04.800 to create. 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.920 It's one of those things that's a little hard to explain, even, yeah, 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:14.400 that this course was built predominantly in nineteen oh three, 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:20.040 and that the changes since then have been significant but 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.439 haven't really altered the essence of the course as it 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.480 existed originally. But getting into its evolution a little bit, 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:34.879 William C. Phones, Henry's son, eventually became the most influential 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.560 person at the club, probably right that the chair of 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.760 the Green Committee, the person who is really the custodian 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.119 of this golf course over the next decades. What was 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.560 his influence on the course, What kinds of changes did 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.720 he make and why so w C. 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.280 Is really you know, Henry creates the design. W C 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.119 is the one that really gives it its teeth. And 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.359 then you know, the third person to throw into that 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.119 would be the greenkeeper Emma Leffler, and I always, you know, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.680 refer to him here as the father of the Son 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.600 and the holy Greenkeeper because it was really that triumvirate 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:13.560 that really just did everything here for those first forty years. So, 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.560 you know, Leffler started as a caddy when the course 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.960 opened in nineteen oh four, and W. C. Phones took 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:20.439 such a shine to him that he made him his 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.720 personal caddy. By the age of twelve, he was the 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.760 caddy master. By the age of sixteen, he was the superintendent. 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:30.080 And then after the pro unexpectedly passed away in nineteen 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.119 twenty nine, he became the pro as well. But Lefler, 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.720 Leffler knew every blade of grass on this golf course, 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.320 and you know, the stories would would go that, you know, 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.840 Henry W. C and Ema Lefler would walk this course 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.920 every night and try to find different things that they 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.480 can do to improve it, you know, to make it 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.439 more difficult, or to make it more fair, or you know, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.760 to do whatever they felt was necessary. 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:56.159 And you know, W. C. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:01.360 Phones is elected Greens chairman sometime around nineteen eight, nineteen 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.479 oh nine, somewhere in that era. And you know, because 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.040 he's such a quality player, and he's playing so many 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.520 of these, you know, now classic courses like you know, 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.080 the National Golf Links and things like that. You know, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.600 he's kind of seeing what everybody else is doing, and 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.639 you know, taking elements of those other classic courses and 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.520 bringing them here. But I think, you know, at the 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.440 same point, let's make it as hard as possible as well. 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.000 And you know, one of the things that they came 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.000 up with from the early going was the furrowed bunkers. 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:35.320 And what the furrows were are bunkers here for the 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:40.560 first sixty years of the golf club was were bunkers 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.719 filled with sand dredged from the nearby Allegheny River. So 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.639 it was very coarse, very dense, pebble filled, you know, 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:51.000 not the your prototypical white, fluffy sand that you play in. 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:53.800 This is not linksland the sand. This is this is 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:55.320 heavy river stuff. 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.879 Yeah, it's it's almost like hitting that of wet dirt. 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.960 And if that wasn't hard enough, what they did after 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:08.720 that was they would rake the the bunker's perpendicular to 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:13.320 the hole with this rake that featured four inch long 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.959 steel times and you know, the colorful nickname for it 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.080 was the Devil's backscratcher, and you know, you would rake 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.640 it perpendicular, and these times would create these undulations, these 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.199 these these furrows that you know, you would hit your 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.439 ball into it and it would sit down in this sand. 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.800 That the only way you could get any club on 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:37.439 the ball was to pitch out sideways, and essentially, on 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:39.679 a golf course that has no water hazards and no 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:44.160 penalties with water, the furrows became the water hazard. Essentially, 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.600 you had to basically pitch it out sideways and take 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:50.479 your you know, take your medicine sort of thing. And 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.320 if you tried to hit the hero shot, you might 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:56.200 get lucky once in a hundred, but the other ninety 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:58.440 nine you were going to create a lot of extra 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:01.439 pain for yourself. And you know, I mean, by the 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:04.760 nineteen thirty eight US Amateur, I mean, players were complaining 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:06.280 all the time and all that, you know, this is 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:08.040 too hard and blah blah blah, and you know, w 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:10.760 C Phones basically told them like, you're the best players 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:12.280 in the world, and the members play it like this 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:14.480 every day, you can play it for seven days. 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:14.800 Kind of thing. 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.359 And in nineteen fifty three, the players actually threatened to 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:22.359 boycott the US Open if the furrows remained, and you know, 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:24.879 the USGA and the club and the players came to 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:27.720 an agreement that the furrows would remain in the Greenside bunkers, 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:31.280 but not the not the Fairway bunkers, and by nineteen 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.120 sixty two the practice was gone all together. But you know, 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:38.119 the bunkers were difficult enough before the furrows, and then 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:40.199 you add the furrows into it. And you know that 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:43.600 was all the design of w C. Phones and mL Lefler, 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:46.320 And you know that reign of the Phones is you know, 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.480 WC resigns the whole family in nineteen forty six, after 0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:54.879 the talk of swimming pools and becoming more of a 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:58.800 social club. But you know that first forty years that 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:01.560 the phoneses were here, you know they did everything in 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:04.760 their power to make this the most challenging golf course 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:06.480 on the planet. Now they would say, if you hit 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:08.919 the perfect shot, it would be fair. But you know 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:11.479 if you didn't, you know you were going to suffer. 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:14.160 All right, Well, David, thank you so much for coming 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:16.520 on the pod. You've got a busy couple of weeks 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.600 here as the go to historian for Oakmont, so good 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:22.440 luck with the rest of your media obligations, but thank 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:25.480 you for spending this time with me. Yeah, of course, anytime, 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:35.280 happy to do it. This episode of Designing Golf is 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:39.840 brought to you by Perfect Practice. Perfect Practice makes the 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:45.359 highest quality mats for realistic putting that you can find. 0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:50.840 They're crafted with this unique crystal velvet material that ensures 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:54.639 a smooth and precise ball roll. 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Twenty percent off a Perfect Practice mat. 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:56.520 This is a great deal. It's something that I've been 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.679 using lately and getting a lot of benefits. Out of 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:01.920 So that's a perfect practice putting Matt check it out. 0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:11.240 All right, let's get back to the episode. All right, 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:14.000 we're back, Joseph. You ready to talk about some architecture. 0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:17.000 Let's do it, all right, I have a bunch of 0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:20.320 notes here. Feel free to interrupt or ask questions whenever, 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.000 and then we'll get to more of your portion of 0:28:23.040 --> 0:28:27.040 it later. But let's start with the land at Oakmont. 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:32.119 This land borders the Allegheny River, and this is something 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.320 that can't really be seen from the golf course. You 0:28:35.480 --> 0:28:37.560 maybe aren't even aware when you're on the golf course 0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:39.760 that the river is there, a very big river, an 0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:44.160 important river for Pittsburgh. But the seventeenth tee is essentially 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:46.680 one hundred and fifty yards or so from from the 0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:51.280 north bank of the river. It was previously farmland, so 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:54.120 the topography may have been a little bit smoothed out 0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:58.520 to a degree. It's mostly big, broad slopes on this property, 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:03.360 not a ton of micro undulation. But since the course 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:08.880 is very natural, there is some odd topography out there 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:12.520 that's kind of charming. The soil is heavy clay, and 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:15.840 the course essentially sits in a valley. This is two 0:29:15.960 --> 0:29:22.120 hillsides feeding into the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The highway is well 0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:25.520 below the level of the golf course. The turnpike was 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:29.840 built in nineteen fifty one, but the gorge that the 0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:34.680 highway runs through now contained a railroad before that. So 0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:38.240 the turnpike kind of functions like a river in the property. 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:43.360 Everything feeds toward it. And I think the tilt of 0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:46.760 the land, these two hillsides that kind of face each other, 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:50.360 and that the golf course goes up and down and across, 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:56.040 are really core to the identity of Oakmont Country Club. 0:29:56.120 --> 0:30:00.480 This kind of determines everything about the golf course. It 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.160 accounts for a lot of its challenge, It accounts for 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:06.480 a lot of its character. So that's the land at 0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:10.680 Oakmont Country Club. Let's go right into the routing. So 0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:13.760 how does this course use the land? I think the 0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:17.800 routing is one of Oakmont's greatest strengths, one of its, 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:20.480 you know, maybe two or three greatest strengths. I would 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:24.000 say the first three holes get you to the farthest 0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:27.560 point on the property from the clubhouse. The first hole 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:31.239 plays down that main hill that the clubhouse sits on. 0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:35.360 Then you cross the turnpike, then the second hole plays 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:38.520 up the other hill on the other side of the highway, 0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:42.400 and the third hole plays across to the northeast corner 0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:45.280 of the site, and then from there the front nine 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:50.160 gradually works its way back down the hillside toward the highway. 0:30:50.680 --> 0:30:53.280 The eighth hole gets you back to the bridges that 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:56.240 go over the turnpike, and then the ninth hole climbs 0:30:56.360 --> 0:31:00.120 back up to the clubhouse. The back nine stays on 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:04.520 the clubhouse side of the property and basically works up, down, 0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:09.480 and across the hillside from southeast to northwest. And the 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:13.080 genius of this routing, I think, is how much variety 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:18.160 it finds in the natural terrain. The holes are constantly 0:31:18.280 --> 0:31:22.680 changing direction and finding new ways to relate with the land. 0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:27.800 There are down slopes, up slopes, side slopes, and the 0:31:27.800 --> 0:31:33.080 holes just find these endless permutations and combinations of those 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:37.520 different slopes. So, for example, the first hole plays downhill 0:31:38.160 --> 0:31:41.800 while tilting a bit right to left, then the second 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:46.160 hole plays uphill while tilting a bit left to right, 0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:49.840 and it goes on like that. It's constantly changing directions. 0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:53.040 So if there's wind, you're getting these different looks at 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:56.720 the wind, and the land is doing something different on 0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:59.600 every hole, and I think this is really what gives 0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:04.240 the core its variety and gives each hole its distinctiveness. 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:08.160 It's a big reason why the course is difficult, because 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:11.400 you're constantly fighting the slope from tea to green. You 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:14.040 have all these weird lies. You have to think about 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:17.000 what your ball is gonna do when it lands. But 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:22.360 also it just makes each hole memorable, and that's something 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:26.280 that is I think surprising about Oakmont because the land 0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:32.760 doesn't necessarily have any really remarkable natural features aside from 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:36.120 its slope. But that's not that remarkable. I mean, it's 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.960 just a big, brawny slope that a lot of golf 0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:45.320 courses have. There is no ocean here, there is no 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:48.800 you know, you don't get up to see the Allegheny River. 0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:54.280 You don't find variety through spectacular natural vistas or even 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:58.640 like a query like Marion has. You don't have those 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:03.400 features that automatically give memorability to the holes. The reason 0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:06.360 each hole is memorable, though, is that it relates to 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:10.000 the land in a different way. And I think it's 0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:13.880 really impressive that after a rounded Oakmont you have no 0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:18.760 trouble remembering every single hole, so it passes that test 0:33:19.400 --> 0:33:22.120 with flying colors, and that characteristic has been there since 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:26.560 the beginning because the routing is basically phones is routing, right, 0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:31.720 So that's that's something that's very remarkable about Oakland. Is 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:34.880 that something that was obvious to you, Joseph in kind 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:36.560 of looking at the course from afar. 0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:41.120 It's interesting you went to the variety piece, because I 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:44.320 think the deeper I've gotten into my Oakamont research, the 0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:48.160 more I've appreciated the variety in a lot of different ways. 0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:51.280 You know, some greens you can run it up. Others 0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:53.400 are a little bit more of a forced carry, Like 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:56.320 some holes have bunkers cutting into the fair way, like 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.480 some are sloped one direction, some of the other way. 0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:04.000 I don't think this style of variety it has necessarily 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:07.440 translates as well to TV as it does to seeing 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:07.800 it in. 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:09.960 Person as an absolutely experience. 0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:11.839 Yeah, And a lot of that has to do with 0:34:12.080 --> 0:34:14.120 the fact that the greens are so wild and the 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:16.480 greens are such a strong defense, which I think we 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:18.799 kind of have to almost lead with, Like that is 0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:23.359 the defense at Oakmond. It's it's incredibly penal t to green, 0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:26.680 but the greens are wild, and that slope is often 0:34:26.719 --> 0:34:29.800 hard to capture on TV. So I think from watching 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:36.520 it historically the memorability it doesn't pass the memorability test 0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:39.240 on TV as well as I'm sure it does in person. 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:41.160 And I think it can feel a little bit like 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:46.400 a slog to watch but not to play, And so 0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:48.640 it's just an interesting golf course to talk about from 0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:49.360 that perspective. 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:54.319 Yeah, And that's because what doesn't translate to TV. It's topography, 0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:57.160 and what makes the holes at Oakmont distinct from each 0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:01.440 other primarily topography, also bunker rangements and green designs, but 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:05.000 there is kind of an Oakmont style of bunker and 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:07.839 green design and so once you see one, you're kind 0:35:07.840 --> 0:35:11.279 of like, Okay, these are similar to each other, but 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:13.480 what really makes the whole stand out from each other 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.160 is the way they relate to the land. And that's 0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:18.359 not going to translate on TV. If you think about 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:22.920 a course that translates as instantly memorable from hole to 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.320 hole on TV, Augusta National is probably the best example. 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:28.920 And what do you have there. You have some remarkable 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:36.399 water hazards, you have holes that visually are distinct from 0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:39.759 each other right away, especially on the back nine. So 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:42.120 I think that's the kind of thing that translates to TV. 0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.200 Oakmont doesn't do that as much. I think that's a 0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:50.520 good point. Or sawgrass, yeah, TPC sagrass, perfect example. Yeah, 0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:55.279 immediately visually distinct holes from each other, partly because of 0:35:55.320 --> 0:36:01.400 the variety of different colors and textures of hazard. In 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:05.920 a lot of ways, Oakmont's Oakmont's a bit more more 0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:10.319 is simple in terms of its in terms of its 0:36:10.440 --> 0:36:16.279 visual impact. Yeah, that's interesting. All right, let's talk about 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:20.440 the design philosophy at Oakmont. I'm curious about your thoughts here. 0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:27.520 Phones's primary point of reference for great golf was links golf. 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.839 He toured the links of Great Britain around the turn 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:36.120 of the twentieth century, and Henry Phones's big intention was 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:43.239 to create something like that in Pittsburgh, a links golf course. Now, admittedly, 0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:48.080 the influence of links golf on Oakmont is hard to discern, 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:52.560 especially these days, because of the presentation of the course. 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:56.680 The course is presented like an American inland parkland course. 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:01.480 The exceptions to that would be the course was nearly 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:05.440 treeless during Phones's time and is again treeless. So maybe 0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:10.640 that's a link to links golf. The greens have open fronts, 0:37:11.000 --> 0:37:12.600 for the most part, a lot of the greens have 0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:17.880 open fronts, inviting some run up play, another possible connection 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:22.279 to Links golf, and then the architecture adheres to the 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:26.720 lay of the land. This might have just been a result, though, 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:30.839 of the limitations of construction during this period. They really 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:34.560 couldn't have done anything else except adhere to the lay 0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:38.200 of the land. But when I'm thinking about how Oakmont 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:42.480 resembles a links golf course, those are the directions that 0:37:42.520 --> 0:37:45.759 I would immediately go in Now, I think the lay 0:37:45.800 --> 0:37:48.720 of the land character of Oakmont is something that really 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:52.560 needs to be noted. If you look at the top 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:57.719 thirty or so most highly rated American courses, Oakmont might 0:37:57.800 --> 0:38:01.840 actually be one of the most even if it's not 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:06.080 the most natural looking. And I think this is partly 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:10.360 a consequence of Oakmont being the oldest, very highly rated 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:14.000 American golf course. I mean, this was built in the 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:18.240 ancient days of American golf architecture, well before National Golf Links, 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:23.480 well before Pine Valley, two decades before Cypress Point, two 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:26.920 and a half decades before Cyprus Point, and so the 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:32.560 construction approach was relatively rudimentary. If you were to compare 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:36.080 the amount of earth that the phones is moved in 0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:38.680 creating Oakmont to the amount of earth that core and 0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:43.640 Crenshaw moved in building Sandhills, which is regarded as one 0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:47.439 of the great natural golf courses. I think it might 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:50.759 be similar. I think Coren Crenshaw might have moved more 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:54.960 dirt in creating sand Hills. The course was built in 0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:58.520 the mid nineties as opposed to the very early twentieth century, 0:38:58.560 --> 0:39:00.359 so it's something to keep in mind. With oak it 0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:05.480 is an extremely natural golf course relative to the other 0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:12.160 great American courses. Now, okay, design philosophy, we have links 0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:15.279 golf as a potential influence. Maybe a little bit hard 0:39:15.320 --> 0:39:20.880 to see that these days, though, Oakmont's reputation is that 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:26.520 of a quintessentially penal golf course. You see this in 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:31.359 just about everything that's written about Oakmont. This is penal architecture. 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:38.000 So Oakmont, yes, does have many obviously penal holes. The 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:41.520 straight lines of bunkers guarding some fairways are a dead 0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:43.520 giveaway of that. If you look at the first hole, 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.799 it just has these kind of lineups of bunkers down 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:52.520 each side of the fairway. Very linear, very much intended. Okay, 0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:54.239 if you hook ory slice it. You're going to be 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:55.920 in one of these bunkers, or you're going to be 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:59.759 in rough That is penal architecture, and many holes at 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:05.680 Okemont follow that philosophy. The tenth hole does, the fourteenth 0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:08.520 hole does. You could go on, but the course also 0:40:08.800 --> 0:40:13.920 has some holes that strike me as clearly strategic. If 0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:17.000 you're watching during the US Open, look at the second hole, 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:20.279 Look at the fourth hole, par five. Look at the 0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:23.400 seventh hole, part four that's kind of near the turnpike. 0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:26.840 Look at the eleventh hole, look at the twelfth hole, 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:32.120 the seventeenth hole. I think these are strategic golf holes. 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:35.400 They are at least intended in their design to be strategic. 0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:40.319 They were more obviously strategic in the phones era. If 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.920 you look at nineteen thirties aerials of this golf course, 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.800 the fairways were wider, and to me, the strategic intention 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:51.920 of the design of these holes comes across more clearly 0:40:52.080 --> 0:40:54.960 when you look at them back in the day. But 0:40:55.440 --> 0:41:00.160 Gilhans's work has restored some of the strategic characteristics of 0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:03.080 these holes that were lost over the years. And so 0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:08.120 I think that something that goes noted too rarely about 0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:13.560 Oakmont is how it mixes together penal and strategic holes 0:41:13.920 --> 0:41:18.879 with the balance tilted toward penal. But there are some 0:41:18.920 --> 0:41:21.799 strategic holes out there, and I think that this is 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:27.280 an example of Oakmont's variety, and I think it's pretty interesting. 0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:29.640 Is this something that you noticed and looking at the 0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:30.160 course at all? 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:33.960 Yeah, I'm like almost overwhelmed with how much there is 0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:35.920 to talk about with Oakman, Like even just in the 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:38.480 last two minutes there that you're talking like. 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:41.040 Yeah, me too. I have a lot of notes. 0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:45.719 This is probably a topic for almost another day. But 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:49.560 I often think there's too big of a distinction made 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:53.239 between penal and strategic architecture, or at least that they 0:41:53.320 --> 0:41:57.799 overlap often more than Yes, sometimes they're described like. 0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:01.279 Strategic holes can also be penal. Right, if you have 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:04.040 a strategic design, but then you put hazards down both 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.279 sides of the fair way, but you still have some 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:09.680 of those diagonals within the whole corridor, then he kind 0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:11.560 of got a hole that's both penal and strategic. 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:14.319 I mean, Augusta National is a golf course that we 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:18.839 probably would often discuss within the context of it being strategic, 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:22.239 and I think there's a far more penal architecture out 0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:24.840 there than is often represented. 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:26.040 So well just because of the trees. 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:29.920 That's a huge part of it, right, Yeah, I do 0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:33.560 think some people may brush over the whole links golf connection. 0:42:35.160 --> 0:42:37.800 I think it's actually a really interesting way to understand 0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:42.400 Oakmont and important in that. One of the main ways 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:45.440 I think Oakmont's different from a lot of golf courses 0:42:45.480 --> 0:42:47.640 that look like Oakmont is that the ground is a 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:52.080 factor and that the ball on the ground it matters 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:54.040 what happens when the ball hits the ground. So it's 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:57.000 a clear difference from a golf course like Mirefield Village, 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:00.400 where the PGA Tour is right now as we're record this, 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:02.840 where the ground isn't really a factor like the greens 0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:04.960 aren't much of a defense. 0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:09.319 There the golf course for sure, yeah, right, And there's 0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:11.280 not a lot of slope in the fairway. It's totally 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:14.480 and TPC Sawgrass is primarily an aerial golf course at 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.040 this point. Even if Pete Dye was imagining that there 0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:20.560 will be some more rollout, Oakmont for sure is a 0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:24.719 course that prioritizes the ground game. I think this is 0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:27.680 a great point and something that should definitely come up 0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:30.359 when you talk about links golf and its influence on. 0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:33.880 Oakmont absolutely And part of the difficulty of that, And 0:43:33.920 --> 0:43:36.279 I think what makes Oakmont so interesting to talk about 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:38.840 is that the golf course is in Pittsburgh and that 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:43.080 is not necessarily a climate that is the most conducive 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:44.480 to the ground game and so. 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:47.120 Or a soil type. You know, it's as I mentioned, 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:48.000 it is heavy clay. 0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:52.200 So I you know, I pray that we get no 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:55.200 rain and that the conditions are firm enough that the 0:43:55.200 --> 0:43:59.239 ground game matters. But like, that's a huge part of 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:02.680 the story of the weak the story of the setup 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:05.360 a golf course like Oakmont is that it is highly 0:44:05.440 --> 0:44:08.000 conditioned dependent. And I'm not sure how many golf courses 0:44:08.320 --> 0:44:11.799 in the world are as dependent on conditions for the 0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:14.799 golf course to play the way that it should as Oakmont. 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:16.959 And it's interesting to think about it within the lens 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:19.640 of it being a link style golf course, the ground 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:22.799 game being a factor as to why that matters. Now, 0:44:22.840 --> 0:44:25.160 the greens will probably like they're wild enough that even 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:28.359 if it gets a little bit of rain, they can 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:30.680 firm out. They're going to play fast, So the ground 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:33.520 game will still be a factor. Massive greens, right, Like 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:37.880 that's a huge defining characteristic of Oakmont. But off the tee, 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:41.480 it won't matter that the fairway slopes from left to 0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:43.600 right if we get a bunch of rain, like you 0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:47.520 watch some old clips of Oakmont, And this is something 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:49.560 that we'll probably talk about later in this conversation. But 0:44:50.880 --> 0:44:53.279 I don't think there's I don't think golfers should be 0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:56.160 trying to hit down certain sides of the fairways out here, 0:44:56.200 --> 0:44:57.880 and if it rains, that's not even going to be 0:44:57.880 --> 0:44:59.720 a factor because the ball is just going to bounce 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:01.760 and you know, only roll out a few yards anyway. 0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:04.360 So yeah, it's really interesting to understand it within the 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:06.759 context of it being a link style course and then 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:10.400 thinking about the conditions as a function of how the 0:45:10.400 --> 0:45:11.720 golf course will play is important. 0:45:12.440 --> 0:45:15.600 Yeah, they absolutely needed to be firm. It's sort of 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:18.319 like in pro golf tournaments these days, you either need 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:21.680 trees or you need firmness, and Oakmont doesn't have trees, 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:26.479 and so the conditions have to be a defense. Now, 0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:32.279 the agronomy is so advanced at Oakmont, so technically proficient, 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:35.239 that I think they can achieve firmness even if the 0:45:35.280 --> 0:45:39.400 conditions aren't ideal for it. But Yeah, wind and firmness 0:45:40.080 --> 0:45:43.239 would be a big part of the of the challenge here. 0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:46.399 And if you don't have those things, then then it's 0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:47.000 going to be tough. 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:48.680 First, are you saying that they can Are you saying 0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:50.319 they can achieve that both on the fairways and the 0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:51.760 greens or just on the greens. 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:56.120 Yeah, I think both, but certainly on the greens and 0:45:57.200 --> 0:46:00.560 on the approaches to the greens because the approach are 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:07.440 essentially maintained as green surface. They're astonishingly short and firm, 0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:10.640 and there will be a lot of inputs that go 0:46:10.840 --> 0:46:16.120 into the approaches if the weather isn't ideal for firmness. 0:46:16.640 --> 0:46:20.040 So I'm hoping for natural firmness. I'm hoping for well 0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:25.520 suited weather to a quote unquote American Links golf course. 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:30.200 But there's no guarantee of that, and and so we'll see, 0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:33.840 we'll see. All right, let's talk about those greens. I 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:38.320 said that routing was one of Oakmont's greatest strengths, routing 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:41.280 and the variety that the routing creates with the land. 0:46:41.960 --> 0:46:44.400 The other big strength of Oakmont, I think is the 0:46:44.440 --> 0:46:48.600 green designs. The way these greens are built is different 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:53.560 from anything else I've seen. They were constructed before golf 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:57.960 architects really quote unquote knew how to build greens, So 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:00.719 at Oakmont the phones is were sort of making it 0:47:00.840 --> 0:47:04.040 up as they went along, and the result is something 0:47:04.760 --> 0:47:09.440 completely unique. The greens are generally very large, They have 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:11.840 open fronts so that you can run the ball on. 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:15.719 They flow with the lay of the land. They are 0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:20.480 not built up significantly against the natural slopes of the property, 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:23.600 or not built up nearly as much as they would 0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:27.799 be if a professional architect had built them some time 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:31.120 later in history. So whatever the slope of the natural 0:47:31.200 --> 0:47:34.720 terrain is, that is generally the slope of the green. 0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:39.120 Derek Duncan, for Golf Digest referred to them as tilted 0:47:39.239 --> 0:47:43.200 basketball courts, and I think that's a pretty good analogy. 0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:47.320 So you know, if you walk around the greens at Oakmont, 0:47:47.800 --> 0:47:52.200 you can see some building up, some propping up against 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:57.640 certain slopes, but it is surprisingly small. And the result 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:02.239 is that the natural terrain determines the basic character of 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:06.560 almost every green. Some grains, several greens in fact, just 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:11.400 scream away from the line of play one, ten and 0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:17.000 twelve especially. This is very unusual, but again it comes 0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:21.920 from the natural topography. The main manufactured elements of the 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:27.439 greens are these channels that phones cut through them. They're 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:31.600 mostly just kind of straight, linear troughs that go through 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:34.960 the greens, and these give some greens a kind of 0:48:35.200 --> 0:48:37.920 wavy appearance when you look at them from the fairway. 0:48:38.239 --> 0:48:40.520 You look at them and they have this kind of 0:48:41.320 --> 0:48:45.440 wave like structure to them. My hacky analogy would be 0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:50.840 it's almost like corrugated steel, which would be appropriate for Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, 0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:54.440 but the greens have that kind of distinctive look because 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.680 of the channels that were cut through them. And I 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:02.640 think that the channels serve a cup purposes. One they 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:07.120 create some more easily pinnable areas on what are otherwise 0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:10.160 very sloped greens. So if you put a pin at 0:49:10.160 --> 0:49:13.160 the bottom of one of these troughs, it's a little 0:49:13.160 --> 0:49:15.719 bit friendlier and a little bit flatter down there, so 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:18.279 you can pin them a bit more easily. You have 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:20.319 a very sloped green, it's hard to find a pin 0:49:20.400 --> 0:49:23.520 there because everything is just going to work away from it. 0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:26.399 You're going to have these crazy puts that break five 0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:31.399 inches over over five feet. So you know, because they 0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:35.320 have these little manufactured elements in them, you can find 0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:40.160 some friendlier sections of them. The second purpose these channels 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:43.640 might serve is that they help gather water and drain 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:46.040 it off the greens, so they're functional in that way. 0:49:46.719 --> 0:49:49.719 And finally, they just make the greens more interesting. If 0:49:49.760 --> 0:49:53.920 the greens were just tilted planes, then they wouldn't be 0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:58.759 nearly as engaging as they are now. So ultimately, this 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:03.560 is a very simple, almost rudimentary approach to green construction, 0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:07.960 but the results are really striking. I think they're again 0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:10.840 they're like no other greens in the world of golf, 0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:14.080 and they've remained essentially the same since nineteen oh four. 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:22.440 Only eight, fifteen, and sixteen were moved and significantly rebuilt. 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:26.799 Only eight was rebuilt after the phone's era. Eight had 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:29.880 to be moved because when the Pennsylvania Turnpike went in, 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:32.799 they had to kind of widen the gorge that the 0:50:32.800 --> 0:50:37.720 old railroad ran through, and so they moved the eighth 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:41.400 green something like thirty yards back into the interior of 0:50:41.400 --> 0:50:45.720 the property. But they replicated or tried to replicate essentially 0:50:45.760 --> 0:50:52.480 what the hole was before. So those are those are incredible, 0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:59.680 incredible greens that just have have basically stayed what they 0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:05.759 were since nineteen oh four. There's nothing really like that 0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:10.520 in America. I don't think you can't find greens that 0:51:10.600 --> 0:51:14.959 have stayed the same for that long at many high 0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:17.680 profile courses you might look at, I don't know, Myopia 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:19.719 Hunt Club or a Garden City or something like that. 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.680 But among championship courses that the pros go to, this 0:51:23.880 --> 0:51:26.239 is this is something totally different. 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:30.799 The greens I think the biggest that that's what jumps 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:32.680 out when you're thinking about the test at Oakmont, and 0:51:32.719 --> 0:51:36.600 even compared to a golf course like Augusta, these are 0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:38.000 way wilder. 0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:42.120 And they're way more tilted for sure. And yeah, I 0:51:42.160 --> 0:51:45.560 mean Augusta is actually a good example of this propping 0:51:45.640 --> 0:51:48.799 up against slopes that I talk about. Augusta's greens are 0:51:48.880 --> 0:51:52.680 modern in the sense that if the green site for 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:57.279 a green like one or fourteen is really tilted, then 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:01.719 what Mackenzie did was lift up a low side so 0:52:01.760 --> 0:52:05.080 that he had a relatively level surface to work with. 0:52:05.360 --> 0:52:07.560 And then the interest of the greens that Augusta comes 0:52:07.560 --> 0:52:11.719 from mostly manufactured contour, and that contour can be really 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:15.200 significant in some greens that Augusta have have really big, 0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:19.320 you know, overall slope as well. But for the most part, 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:23.600 on tilted green sites, those greens are built up on 0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:27.080 the low side so that they're more leveled off. At Oakmont, 0:52:27.120 --> 0:52:31.080 you just don't see that, and they become wild because 0:52:31.120 --> 0:52:31.359 of that. 0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:34.000 Yeah, that's one thing that jumped out to me again 0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:36.360 watching some of these rounds back, like the twenty sixteen 0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:40.160 US Open. This is not to diminish the test that 0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:44.200 is Augusta National. I love that tournament, love that test, 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:47.920 but those greens that would almost describe as being wild 0:52:48.080 --> 0:52:52.760 but kind of tame. I don't want to say straightforward, 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:56.560 but when you're watching golfer's putt at Oakmont, the number 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:59.719 of three footers that they're starting outside the hole or 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:02.719 you know that really get away from you, or chip 0:53:02.760 --> 0:53:05.680 shots that like the second hole is a great example 0:53:05.719 --> 0:53:07.239 of this, where you see a shot just come up 0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:09.359 a little bit short and back down that false front. 0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:12.799 You may get to try that shot again. That there's 0:53:12.880 --> 0:53:15.400 not as much of that somewhere like Augusta, and I 0:53:15.400 --> 0:53:17.000 think that's gonna be a big thing from a skill 0:53:17.040 --> 0:53:22.320 set perspective, is these greens chipping around them, but mainly 0:53:22.360 --> 0:53:26.640 putting them is completely different than anything we see week 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:28.600 in and week out. In professional golf, and I am 0:53:28.680 --> 0:53:33.040 curious which golfers. You know, Scott is a good example 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:36.600 here who's been putting pretty well. But those are those 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.080 are on tame greens. Like when you put somebody out here, 0:53:40.280 --> 0:53:42.920 I'm curious who is not going to be ready for 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:45.279 just how different these greens aren't. A lot of these 0:53:45.320 --> 0:53:47.680 golfers are never gonna have seen anything like this unless 0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:48.440 they played here before. 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:52.120 Yeah, I think that's a good point. Certain golfers who 0:53:52.120 --> 0:53:56.600 are very concerned with fairness or with the with the 0:53:57.120 --> 0:54:01.560 consistency of a type of architecture see often on the 0:54:01.560 --> 0:54:05.960 PGA Tour might be very bothered by Oakmont in the 0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:09.480 same way that they can be bothered by links golf 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:13.120 courses during during the Link season, or Shinnacock or even 0:54:13.160 --> 0:54:16.080 Augusta National, Right, I mean, they're just used to Augusta 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:20.720 National and it's and it's eccentricities. But yes, those greens 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:23.560 are are clearly very different from what they see week 0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:27.200 in and week out. Oakmont turns up that dial a lot. Yeah. 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:29.360 And the other point here that I've been reflecting on 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:32.160 as we get closer to this championship is that so 0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:34.759 much of golf has changed over time. There's been so 0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:37.640 many advancements, but I'd say that the two of the 0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:41.319 biggest have been three of the biggest. The golf ball 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:44.040 and how much straighter it flies the driver head and 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:48.200 how much more forgiving it is. And then track Man, 0:54:48.239 --> 0:54:51.320 which has optimized the way that golfer's hit shots, especially 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:55.120 long shots. Course management would be another honorable mention, but 0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:59.000 my point is the way golfer's putt and hit chip 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.080 shots is probably the part of the game that has 0:55:01.160 --> 0:55:04.600 changed the least overtime, and a strong reason why Oakmont 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:07.160 will stand up much better than a lot of golf 0:55:07.200 --> 0:55:11.200 courses where the defense is tee to green. Right, the 0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:15.200 greens are pretty smooth and tame, but they're really tricked 0:55:15.280 --> 0:55:17.400 up from tea to green. Especially when those golf courses 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:20.200 are soft, they get pillaged, you know. I think a 0:55:20.239 --> 0:55:23.440 reason to be excited about Oakmont is that its defense 0:55:23.600 --> 0:55:25.400 stands up better to the modern game than a lot 0:55:25.400 --> 0:55:26.280 of other golf courses. 0:55:26.320 --> 0:55:30.759 We see. Let's talk about trees. Oakmont had hardly any 0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:33.799 trees in the phones era, you know, so for the 0:55:33.840 --> 0:55:36.640 first four and a half decades of the twentieth century, 0:55:37.360 --> 0:55:40.920 the club did start planting trees in the nineteen fifties 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:45.439 and sixties. David Moore, the historian, told us a few 0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:48.440 weeks ago that the tree planting program at Oakmont was 0:55:48.480 --> 0:55:52.479 in part a response to Herbert warrenwind the great golf writer, 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:56.719 referring to the course as an ugly old brute. But 0:55:56.960 --> 0:56:01.200 Whend wrote that in nineteen sixty two, and my understanding 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:04.399 is that Oakmont's tree planting started before that, So I'm 0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:07.000 not sure if that was the sole reason that they 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:10.120 began to plant trees at Oakmont, but that was definitely 0:56:10.160 --> 0:56:12.840 an influence, and it's a quote that many Oakmont members 0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:15.920 still remember, ugly old brute. They didn't like that at 0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:21.320 the time, and it helped justify or motivate more tree planting. 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:25.360 The truth is that a lot of courses added trees 0:56:25.520 --> 0:56:28.200 in the post World War two period. Nineteen fifties and 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:32.080 sixties were high times for planting trees everywhere, not just 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:39.600 golf courses, and the justification was beautification. It wasn't necessarily 0:56:39.640 --> 0:56:42.880 about enhancing the challenge of the courses. It was about 0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:45.960 beautifying the courses. And this was something that was happening 0:56:46.480 --> 0:56:50.000 across America. You know, keep America beautiful, make America Beautiful, 0:56:50.360 --> 0:56:55.320 plant more trees. This was something that had wide support 0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:59.160 and it was something that was happening at golf courses. Now. 0:56:59.480 --> 0:57:03.480 Over time, as on many golf courses, tree planting got 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:07.000 a bit out of hand. At Oakmont, small trees became 0:57:07.160 --> 0:57:11.520 big trees. They started to crowd each other, and the 0:57:11.600 --> 0:57:15.160 turf began to suffer. The playing characteristics of the course 0:57:15.200 --> 0:57:18.960 began to suffer. A lot of the intended character of 0:57:19.000 --> 0:57:23.520 the golf course went away. Now there's a great article 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:26.160 that I want to recommend to people about how tree 0:57:26.240 --> 0:57:30.240 removal began at Oakmont in the nineteen nineties. This is 0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:33.360 an article by Peter McCleary and it appeared in Golf 0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:37.480 Digest in two thousand and two. It's called Mission Unpopular, 0:57:38.040 --> 0:57:41.680 and it's a very very good article. If people want 0:57:41.680 --> 0:57:46.480 to dig deeper into this tree removal movement at Oakmont, 0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:50.240 then check this out. But there's a story in that 0:57:50.360 --> 0:57:53.440 article about the head pro at the time, Bob Ford 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:57.000 taking a group of members to a bunker on the 0:57:57.000 --> 0:58:00.240 first hole, and Ford showed them how if you were 0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:02.720 in that bunker, you also had to hit over a 0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:06.520 tree to get toward the green. So this double hazard was, 0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:12.320 in Ford's mind, a problem. So the head professional was saying, 0:58:12.800 --> 0:58:16.080 by the nineteen nineties, at least the trees were a 0:58:16.120 --> 0:58:19.760 problem at Oakmont. So the club started to take out 0:58:19.760 --> 0:58:23.560 trees in the mid nineteen nineties under the superintendent. Mark Kunes, 0:58:24.240 --> 0:58:26.680 the Greens chairman at the time, and the club board 0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:32.200 supported the removal program, but not all members did. I'd 0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:34.920 like to know more about how exactly the leaders at 0:58:34.960 --> 0:58:38.480 the club became radicalized on this subject, so to speak, 0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:41.480 while while a number of other members at Oakmont were 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:45.440 not in support of tree removal. But usually in these 0:58:45.480 --> 0:58:50.320 situations there is a mix of motivations for tree removal. 0:58:50.960 --> 0:58:55.160 One superintendents tend to push for tree removal because of 0:58:55.200 --> 0:59:01.360 the agronomic benefits, and especially since the nineteen nineties, superintendents 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:05.520 have become very influential at clubs because their job is 0:59:05.560 --> 0:59:12.120 so important, and because the market for hiring good superintendents 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:16.760 is very competitive, and so club leaders really want to 0:59:16.880 --> 0:59:20.520 find and keep great superintendents. And so if that a 0:59:20.560 --> 0:59:23.760 great superintendent says, I want you to remove trees that 0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:25.800 carries a lot of weight, and so I think that 0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:30.160 was a factor at Oakmont, then the people who are 0:59:30.200 --> 0:59:34.040 most familiar with the history and architectural ethos of a 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:37.040 golf course do tend to be the people who serve 0:59:37.160 --> 0:59:40.760 on boards and green committees, and they're the ones who 0:59:40.800 --> 0:59:43.640 are likely to push for a restoration of the look, 0:59:43.680 --> 0:59:48.560 feel and strategy of original course designs. Again, I think 0:59:48.600 --> 0:59:52.880 that's something that happened at Oakmont these days, Oakmont's standard 0:59:52.920 --> 0:59:56.040 justification for the tree removal is that Henry and William 0:59:56.040 --> 0:59:59.360 Phones wanted the course to be links like. That's the 0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:01.320 line that they get, But I think there were a 1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:05.360 number of other things feeding into this. So at first, 1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:09.880 the maintenance crew at Oakmont removed trees starting very early 1:00:09.960 --> 1:00:12.439 in the morning, when it was still dark. They would 1:00:12.440 --> 1:00:15.960 take a tree down, haul away the limbs, grind up 1:00:15.960 --> 1:00:19.360 the stump, and replace the turf over the hole where 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:22.600 the stump used to be before members were out on 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:25.240 the course. So they were essentially doing this in secret. 1:00:26.120 --> 1:00:29.120 The superintendent at the time, Mark Hunes, said, we took 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:34.880 down so many trees before anybody knew what was going on. Eventually, 1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:38.760 the caddies at Oakmont caught onto this and words started 1:00:38.800 --> 1:00:43.160 spreading around the club. Many members were absolutely furious. Some 1:00:43.280 --> 1:00:47.680 threatened to start a petition, there were rumors of a lawsuit. 1:00:48.200 --> 1:00:52.600 A neighboring church started saying prayers for the trees survival, 1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:56.880 but ultimately thirty five hundred trees were removed in the 1:00:56.920 --> 1:01:00.560 first round of restoration work, and I think one members 1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:04.560 saw the views that were being opened up, the topography 1:01:04.600 --> 1:01:08.880 that was revealed. Once they understood that the agronomy was 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:13.240 getting better, they became much more supportive of ongoing tree 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:16.240 removal and now essentially every tree has been removed from 1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:20.400 the golf course property. The only notable one remaining is 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:25.680 an elm next to the third te And so it 1:01:25.720 --> 1:01:28.520 was a remarkable thing that happened at Oakmont. How many 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:32.840 trees came out, and this tree removal program is probably 1:01:32.840 --> 1:01:36.320 the most important and influential in the history of golf. 1:01:36.640 --> 1:01:38.720 It's still a lightning rod. A lot of people are 1:01:38.760 --> 1:01:41.680 still pissed off about it. Joseph, do you wish the 1:01:41.720 --> 1:01:45.720 trees were still there? A lot there, Garrett. 1:01:45.960 --> 1:01:48.760 I think based on how many people out there think 1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:52.880 that trees are the solution to a the distance problem, 1:01:52.920 --> 1:01:56.840 but be also testing accuracy, which are different things. There's 1:01:56.880 --> 1:01:59.160 probably a lot of people praying for the tree removal 1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:02.680 to stop. Outside of those churches around Oakmont that they 1:02:02.680 --> 1:02:03.480 think that's the solution. 1:02:03.600 --> 1:02:05.480 Here's what I will say on that. 1:02:05.560 --> 1:02:08.000 I can't speak as much to the agronomic benefits or 1:02:08.120 --> 1:02:10.760 to some of the history at Oakmont, but from a 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:15.560 setup perspective and how that informs the test. Way too often, 1:02:16.120 --> 1:02:19.320 and I'm a broken record for anyone who's listened to 1:02:19.400 --> 1:02:22.320 other pods, but way too often we focus just on 1:02:22.720 --> 1:02:24.840 the width of a fairway and the length of the rough. 1:02:24.880 --> 1:02:28.600 And what matters, what's a crucial component to how much 1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:32.600 accuracy is tested, is what happens on a very wide miss. 1:02:32.600 --> 1:02:35.160 And there are certain golf courses I always throw out 1:02:35.200 --> 1:02:38.760 Tory Pines as an example, where you can miss wide 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:42.480 of fairway bunkers and it's often better than just missing 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:43.200 by a little bit. 1:02:43.560 --> 1:02:44.840 We've also seen that. 1:02:45.120 --> 1:02:49.240 At other golf courses, some classic golf courses like Winged 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:54.280 Foot and like oak Hill, where wide misses, especially with 1:02:54.400 --> 1:02:57.880 tournament infrastructure, where you often get relief, you sometimes have 1:02:57.920 --> 1:03:00.000 a clean look at the green. It's not that much 1:03:00.200 --> 1:03:03.280 a penalty. I don't think that's anywhere near as much 1:03:03.280 --> 1:03:06.600 of a concern and issue at Oakmont, where the hazards 1:03:06.600 --> 1:03:10.000 are big, like the bunkers out there are wide, and 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:14.200 so you're not missing, you know, left of the church 1:03:14.280 --> 1:03:18.480 pew bunkers and getting away with it. So from purely 1:03:18.520 --> 1:03:20.600 the standpoint of hey, could you add a bunch of 1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:23.160 trees out there and test accuracy a little bit more? 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:26.840 I mean you could, like it could slightly bring up 1:03:26.880 --> 1:03:29.600 the penalty associated with some of the wide misses if 1:03:29.600 --> 1:03:32.480 you had some trees on the perimeters, but I don't 1:03:32.520 --> 1:03:34.720 think that's necessary here. I don't think it would elevate 1:03:34.720 --> 1:03:39.520 the test also blocks people's vantage points, and I am 1:03:39.560 --> 1:03:42.720 a proponent of the tree removal, and in particular here, 1:03:42.760 --> 1:03:44.600 I think this golf course sets up a little bit 1:03:44.680 --> 1:03:47.320 better to not have that problem of super wide misses 1:03:47.760 --> 1:03:49.600 just just getting away with it. There are some exceptions 1:03:49.640 --> 1:03:52.960 to that, like there's some getting away with it, but overall, 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:55.800 I think the test off of the tea is pretty 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:59.120 stout and would not be enhanced by adding a bunch 1:03:59.120 --> 1:03:59.480 of trees. 1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:02.840 All right, let's talk a little bit about esthetics, a 1:04:02.840 --> 1:04:06.880 little bit about renovation work, and then we'll move on 1:04:06.960 --> 1:04:11.720 to some other subjects. But the esthetics of Oakmont are 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:16.760 really interesting. I think it has its own completely distinctive look, 1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:20.600 I'm not sure i'd call it beautiful, but the land 1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:26.160 is impressive and handsome. Again, you can't see the river, 1:04:26.320 --> 1:04:28.720 but when you look in that direction, you have the 1:04:28.840 --> 1:04:32.960 sense that there are some spectacular vistas over there, even 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:36.520 if you can't really see them. The turnpike is right 1:04:36.520 --> 1:04:38.280 through the middle of the course, which a lot of 1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:40.760 people object to, but I think that's kind of ridiculous 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:43.360 when you're actually on the golf course. The highway is 1:04:43.400 --> 1:04:45.320 way below the level of the golf course, and it 1:04:45.360 --> 1:04:49.040 doesn't really feel like it factors in. You can hear it, 1:04:49.120 --> 1:04:53.040 but it's not that big of a deal. The thing 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:55.600 that is interesting to me about Oakmont is how the 1:04:55.640 --> 1:05:02.280 built features have this very utilitary aesthetic to them. They're 1:05:02.320 --> 1:05:06.280 not trying to be beautiful. The bunkers and the other 1:05:06.440 --> 1:05:11.280 artificial features at Oakmont are not trying to blend into 1:05:11.920 --> 1:05:15.240 the natural landscape or give you the impression that they've 1:05:15.280 --> 1:05:19.080 always been there. They're just trying to serve a function. 1:05:19.800 --> 1:05:24.680 They're trying to create challenge and strategy, and there is 1:05:24.760 --> 1:05:28.320 a kind of honesty and simplicity to this approach that 1:05:28.920 --> 1:05:32.040 suits the ethos of the course really well. Oakmont is 1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:36.560 not about delivering pleasure. It's not about delivering pleasure in play, 1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:41.600 It's not about delivering pleasure in esthetics. It is trying 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:44.919 to do a job, test good golfers to the full 1:05:44.960 --> 1:05:48.840 extent of their abilities. And I think the esthetic of Oakmont, 1:05:48.840 --> 1:05:54.920 the utilitarian nature of how the artificial features there were built, 1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:59.600 fits that to a t. Now, one detail I did 1:05:59.720 --> 1:06:04.120 notice about Gilhans's recent renovation work is that the bunkers 1:06:04.160 --> 1:06:09.520 don't have perfectly straight edges. There is a little squiggle 1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:13.320 to them, which makes them look handmade, which of course 1:06:13.360 --> 1:06:15.919 they originally were. And I think that's a nice touch 1:06:16.080 --> 1:06:21.640 because a less sensitive architect might have just created the 1:06:21.680 --> 1:06:25.400 bunkers at Oakmont with a bulldozer and made those lines 1:06:25.480 --> 1:06:30.320 perfectly straight, because that is the overall direction of the 1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:34.480 features at Oakmont, these straight lines. But when you make 1:06:34.560 --> 1:06:38.440 something by hand, it's never going to be perfectly straight. 1:06:38.800 --> 1:06:43.400 And so there is a slight variation of the edges 1:06:43.440 --> 1:06:46.240 to the features at Oakmont that I think is really 1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:51.000 well executed. Tom Doak has compared the look of Oakmont 1:06:51.000 --> 1:06:54.200 to a battlefield, and I think that's spot on. You 1:06:54.240 --> 1:06:59.240 sort of have these trenches, craters and built up fortifications 1:06:59.600 --> 1:07:01.880 and they're all all built in a very straightforward way. 1:07:02.240 --> 1:07:06.560 You know, when you're building battlefield fortifications, Beauty is not 1:07:06.720 --> 1:07:11.160 the primary motive, and so that is Oakmont's aesthetic. It's 1:07:11.240 --> 1:07:14.200 kind of an anti esthetic, but it works for the 1:07:14.200 --> 1:07:17.280 golf course. It's not a beautiful course, but it is 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:21.080 a striking one, all right. So moving on to the 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:25.560 renovation work. Gil Hans did this work between twenty twenty 1:07:25.560 --> 1:07:29.120 three and twenty twenty four. For the most part. The superintendent, 1:07:29.160 --> 1:07:32.200 Mike McCormick refers to it as the single biggest project 1:07:32.240 --> 1:07:35.400 that the course has done in its history. An old 1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:39.600 irrigation system was replaced. Hans touched every bunker in every green, 1:07:40.040 --> 1:07:44.480 installed new bunker drainage, and reconstructed mini bunkers. He added 1:07:44.560 --> 1:07:48.720 length to the championship tease, but he did not, I 1:07:48.760 --> 1:07:53.240 don't think, really transform the golf course. It's going to 1:07:53.280 --> 1:07:56.000 look substantially similar to the course that we saw in 1:07:56.040 --> 1:07:59.200 twenty sixteen, and I think that part of the reason 1:07:59.240 --> 1:08:03.120 for that is that the big work that Oakmont did 1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:06.920 it did gradually between the nineties and when Hans came in. 1:08:07.280 --> 1:08:10.439 It was the tree removal that was the big transformation, 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:15.400 but the features in the ground haven't really been monkeyed 1:08:15.440 --> 1:08:21.120 with that much. And so if you compare the telecast 1:08:21.160 --> 1:08:24.120 of the twenty sixteen US open to the telecast of 1:08:24.160 --> 1:08:27.320 this one coming up, I'm not sure that unless you 1:08:27.360 --> 1:08:31.559 look closely, you'll see massive differences. So this was not 1:08:31.720 --> 1:08:36.479 a transformation renovation like Hans has done at Southern Hills 1:08:36.640 --> 1:08:40.639 or other courses that just came out looking completely different 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:44.799 than they did before. This was more of a fine tuning. 1:08:45.479 --> 1:08:48.599 But a lot of work was done, a lot of 1:08:48.640 --> 1:08:53.200 stuff was rebuilt and rearranged. The effect of it all, though, 1:08:53.400 --> 1:08:57.000 is going to be relatively subtle. So Hans based his 1:08:57.120 --> 1:09:00.960 work on historical evidence from the Phones period again, this 1:09:01.080 --> 1:09:05.160 is about nineteen oh three through nineteen forty six or so. 1:09:05.960 --> 1:09:09.320 But instead of restoring the course to a particular version 1:09:09.520 --> 1:09:14.360 or year, Gil assembled the kind of greatest Hits collection. 1:09:14.720 --> 1:09:19.200 He chose bits and pieces from different periods of Phones's 1:09:19.520 --> 1:09:23.400 tenure at the course. Probably the most significant work that 1:09:23.439 --> 1:09:26.840 he did was restoring the dimensions of the greens, so 1:09:26.920 --> 1:09:29.360 he pushed out a lot of the greens to the 1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:33.080 edges of the green pads. This will open up some 1:09:33.439 --> 1:09:38.120 new and sometimes more difficult pin positions. This has given 1:09:38.200 --> 1:09:42.000 back the greens some of their original quirky shapes. And 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:45.200 he also reduced a lot of the sandy build up 1:09:45.520 --> 1:09:48.880 at the edges of greens. When courses evolve over time, 1:09:49.320 --> 1:09:53.519 often the edges of the greens start to get propped 1:09:53.600 --> 1:09:58.679 up by this build up of organic material. Right when 1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:01.920 people play out of bunker, sand will fall on the edges, 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:05.280 and over time the edges will kind of come up 1:10:05.320 --> 1:10:08.200 so that the edges of the greens are higher than 1:10:08.240 --> 1:10:11.600 the middle. A lot of what Hants did was to 1:10:11.640 --> 1:10:15.200 bring those edges back down, so that although the greens 1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:18.080 are bigger, they're going to feed into the middle a 1:10:18.120 --> 1:10:20.880 lot less. They're going to run off the edges a 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:24.360 lot more. Because he brought those edges down, he did 1:10:24.439 --> 1:10:27.080 widen the fairways in certain spots. You know, from what 1:10:27.120 --> 1:10:29.760 I can see, Hans did a lot of widening in 1:10:29.840 --> 1:10:33.479 spots where the members are going to play, and also 1:10:33.640 --> 1:10:39.080 widening in spots where you might try for a provocative 1:10:39.120 --> 1:10:41.800 little angle at a certain pin. So, in this way, 1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:45.400 you know, the green expansions and the fairway expansions worked 1:10:45.400 --> 1:10:49.639 in tandem. If a green expansion opened up a certain 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:53.599 new pin position, then often the part of the fairway 1:10:53.680 --> 1:10:57.519 that might let you best access that pin position was 1:10:57.560 --> 1:11:01.560 also widened slightly. He shifted the position of some of 1:11:01.600 --> 1:11:04.280 the bunkers, you know, in some cases to account for 1:11:04.320 --> 1:11:07.840 distance gains and other cases to restore some concepts from 1:11:07.880 --> 1:11:11.240 the Phones era. So certain holes are just to have 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:14.240 completely different bunker arrangements. You know, they might have the 1:11:14.280 --> 1:11:16.200 same greens as they always did, they might have the 1:11:16.240 --> 1:11:19.240 same routing as they always did, but the bunker positions 1:11:19.720 --> 1:11:22.439 will will be different throughout the holes. But we don't 1:11:22.479 --> 1:11:26.160 really have time to go into whole by whole what changed. 1:11:26.640 --> 1:11:29.920 Just note that that some holes have have different bunker 1:11:30.000 --> 1:11:35.240 arrangements and orientations. Now, so that's Hans's restoration work. That's 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:39.400 pretty much all I have in my notes. We've gotten through. 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:42.439 We've gotten through my many notes on Oakmont. I skipped 1:11:42.479 --> 1:11:46.200 over some stuff, but that is the that's the core 1:11:46.280 --> 1:11:49.759 of the research I did on the course. You've already 1:11:50.080 --> 1:11:52.760 put some of your thoughts in here, Joseph, But you know, 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:56.080 as you were researching the course, let's talk a little 1:11:56.120 --> 1:11:59.320 bit about how it's going to play for the pros. 1:12:00.120 --> 1:12:02.920 So what are some of your general thoughts about how 1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:06.840 Oakmont is going to serve its purpose as a US 1:12:06.920 --> 1:12:09.160 Open venue. This time around, we've. 1:12:09.040 --> 1:12:11.599 Hit on some of it, and I think the importance 1:12:11.600 --> 1:12:14.160 of the ground game and how conditions will dictate that 1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:17.519 as a huge facet of the test. You talked about 1:12:18.000 --> 1:12:20.320 increasing the size of some of the greens. I think 1:12:20.360 --> 1:12:22.400 I saw that the USGA has a whole by whole 1:12:22.520 --> 1:12:28.400 YouTube video. It's excellent, said the green on seventeen is 1:12:28.479 --> 1:12:31.320 fifty two hundred square feet and that's the smallest green 1:12:31.360 --> 1:12:31.920 on the course. 1:12:32.040 --> 1:12:32.799 And just to give. 1:12:32.680 --> 1:12:35.200 People some reference point, like, there are a lot of 1:12:35.200 --> 1:12:37.719 golf courses we see in professional golf where the average 1:12:37.760 --> 1:12:40.840 square footage is smaller than fifty two hundred square feet 1:12:40.840 --> 1:12:42.920 and that's the smallest green on the golf course. So 1:12:44.040 --> 1:12:46.559 big greens, And I think it's a huge mistake, a 1:12:46.600 --> 1:12:51.960 misguided notion to suggest that big greens make golf courses easier, right, 1:12:52.040 --> 1:12:56.240 because sure, holding everything constant, if you took a green 1:12:56.280 --> 1:12:58.519 and you just made it a little bit bigger and 1:12:58.520 --> 1:13:02.519 it didn't have interesting contour, yeah you'd decrease the scoring 1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:06.080 average a little bit. But the greens at Oakmond are wild, 1:13:06.120 --> 1:13:08.679 and when the significant part of the green is a 1:13:08.720 --> 1:13:11.559 false front, for example, or a steep runoff into an 1:13:11.560 --> 1:13:14.840 area of trouble that's not easy. So I think conflating 1:13:15.000 --> 1:13:19.519 size of greens with ease or with difficulty is not 1:13:19.640 --> 1:13:21.680 the right way to look at it. And that's kind 1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:26.560 of a cousin of thinking that shrinking fairways with is 1:13:26.600 --> 1:13:29.559 a good idea, right that it's same sort of idea 1:13:29.680 --> 1:13:32.200 that that more short grass makes things easier, which is 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:35.240 not always the case. So I'm really excited that the 1:13:35.280 --> 1:13:37.400 greens are going to be a significant defense. As we've 1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:40.880 touched on, main other thing that came up through my 1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:44.519 research is that there's always a conversation around how much 1:13:44.560 --> 1:13:47.960 will a golf course test distance, how how bomber friendly 1:13:48.439 --> 1:13:51.520 will it be, and often that gets framed as bombers 1:13:51.680 --> 1:13:56.519 or accurate drivers. I've never looked at golf that way 1:13:56.600 --> 1:13:59.639 that that those are that it's a spectrum of distance 1:13:59.800 --> 1:14:02.840 or accuracy. Like to me, golf courses are always more 1:14:02.880 --> 1:14:05.880 of a quadrant like how much does it test distance 1:14:05.920 --> 1:14:08.720 and how much does it reward accuracy, not necessarily one 1:14:08.800 --> 1:14:11.400 or the other. And to that point, I don't think 1:14:11.439 --> 1:14:14.000 this golf course is going to be quite as distance 1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:16.800 friendly as it may be described. 1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:17.879 You see some short. 1:14:17.720 --> 1:14:22.519 Hitters contending in past editions of the US Open, you 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:25.559 will need to be an elite ball striker. I would 1:14:25.560 --> 1:14:28.760 not expect some golfer who hits it kind of short 1:14:28.800 --> 1:14:31.839 and accurate but isn't a great iron player to contend. 1:14:31.920 --> 1:14:35.160 I don't think that kind of golfer will contend. But 1:14:35.320 --> 1:14:38.760 somebody like a Colin Morikawa, for example, who is not 1:14:38.920 --> 1:14:41.439 the longest driver of the golf ball in the world, 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:44.479 but is lethally accurate and an excellent iron player through 1:14:44.479 --> 1:14:49.639 the bag. The setup at Oakmont does not prohibit him 1:14:49.640 --> 1:14:51.479 from contending in the tournament. So I do think you 1:14:51.520 --> 1:14:56.040 could see a wide range of golfers compete. You're gonna 1:14:56.040 --> 1:14:57.960 have to be an elite ball striker, and I do 1:14:57.960 --> 1:15:00.879 think there's an opportunity to separate yourself on the greens 1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:05.120 as well. So I think the golfer that wins will 1:15:05.560 --> 1:15:08.639 have a solid week on the greens. But the good, 1:15:08.720 --> 1:15:10.920 the really good putter who doesn't hit the ball super well, 1:15:10.960 --> 1:15:13.000 it doesn't have much of a chance here at Oakmont. 1:15:14.160 --> 1:15:19.000 Why don't you think distance is an outsized advantage at Oakmont? 1:15:20.240 --> 1:15:26.200 Well for some of the holes like and this gets 1:15:26.200 --> 1:15:30.439 to the effective playing with some of the drives are 1:15:31.320 --> 1:15:34.599 they play a little funky for a golfer who hits 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:36.439 it three hundred and twenty five yards. 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:38.400 There's a couple. 1:15:39.000 --> 1:15:40.759 It's going to be court like I expect the winner 1:15:40.800 --> 1:15:43.680 to be a long hitter. But you've seen historically some 1:15:43.720 --> 1:15:46.280 of the shorter hitters like Jim Furick finished T two 1:15:46.360 --> 1:15:49.519 here in twenty sixteen and in two thousand and seven, 1:15:49.600 --> 1:15:52.559 and I think that model works if you're an elite 1:15:53.040 --> 1:15:56.360 iron player. So there's certain holes where like there are, 1:15:57.040 --> 1:16:00.040 there aren't that many holes that are going to be 1:16:00.280 --> 1:16:02.800 massively correlated with distance, Like whole eight's going to be 1:16:02.840 --> 1:16:06.040 a controversial one, right the two hundred, however long they're 1:16:06.040 --> 1:16:07.960 going to play that part three like, that's going to 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:10.080 be correlated with distance, because if you're a long hitter, 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:13.080 you're going to have a better chance of hitting less 1:16:13.080 --> 1:16:16.320 club and hitting it higher lofted. But there are runoffs, 1:16:16.520 --> 1:16:18.960 There are run ups into some of the greens, which 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:22.160 mitigates the distance advantage. Sometimes when you can chop something 1:16:22.200 --> 1:16:23.760 out of the ruck and run it up, you don't 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:26.200 have to hit. It's not all forced to carry. So 1:16:26.200 --> 1:16:29.080 that's another reason that the shorter hitters will have a 1:16:29.120 --> 1:16:32.720 little bit of a or less of a disadvantage, but 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:35.680 just in general, I think the main thing is the 1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:39.120 effective playing with like it for Bryson to get up there, 1:16:39.160 --> 1:16:41.840 he can't just pound away like he can at Winged 1:16:41.840 --> 1:16:43.840 Foot at Tory. At some of those golf courses where 1:16:43.880 --> 1:16:47.280 wid misses aren't penalized, you do have to keep it 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:50.040 in the playing areas, and some of them are really narrow, 1:16:50.080 --> 1:16:52.160 some of them are twenty to twenty five yards wide. 1:16:52.200 --> 1:16:54.799 So it should be a diversity of styles that succeed. 1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:57.120 And then the last point is there's some randomness at 1:16:57.120 --> 1:16:59.400 this golf course, so like you could chip something that 1:16:59.439 --> 1:17:01.160 comes back to your feet and turn a three into 1:17:01.160 --> 1:17:03.360 a five or six pretty quickly, and sometimes that just 1:17:03.760 --> 1:17:07.080 introduces a level of randomness that benefits golfers who aren't 1:17:07.560 --> 1:17:09.599 the best golfers in the world. And I think that's 1:17:09.600 --> 1:17:12.160 a good reason why you see golfers like Scott Peercy 1:17:12.160 --> 1:17:14.240 in the top ten. Jerry Kelly was in the top 1:17:14.280 --> 1:17:16.240 ten in two thousand and seven, and he was a 1:17:16.240 --> 1:17:18.519 great golfer, but he wasn't the type of player that 1:17:18.520 --> 1:17:21.680 you necessarily expect. It wasn't a top five golfer in 1:17:21.720 --> 1:17:22.719 the world at the time. 1:17:23.600 --> 1:17:26.519 Right, And I think that part of the effect of 1:17:26.600 --> 1:17:31.439 greens like you have at Oakmont is a certain randomness. Yes, 1:17:31.560 --> 1:17:34.799 that is what you get when you have a green 1:17:35.320 --> 1:17:39.840 like the Twelfth Green that just absolutely runs away at 1:17:39.880 --> 1:17:44.160 a grade that you don't see pretty much anywhere. That 1:17:44.800 --> 1:17:49.719 is challenging, but it also introduces some element of chance 1:17:50.439 --> 1:17:54.960 that you might make it. So Oakmont doesn't reliably sort 1:17:55.400 --> 1:17:58.400 for the best players in the world. So what I'm 1:17:58.400 --> 1:18:00.559 hearing is that you don't expect Oakmont to be like 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:04.720 a pure bomb and gouge exercise just because this is 1:18:04.760 --> 1:18:10.240 a tree lists inland course with heavy rough and one 1:18:10.280 --> 1:18:13.080 that's going to play very long. It's not necessarily going 1:18:13.160 --> 1:18:15.479 to be one where it's bombers only. 1:18:16.040 --> 1:18:17.880 Now, and a lot of the best players in the 1:18:17.880 --> 1:18:20.519 world hit it really long. So I think the winner 1:18:20.640 --> 1:18:23.000 is going to be one of the top six names 1:18:23.040 --> 1:18:26.880 coming in. I do Scottie Bryson, Rory Xander Ram or 1:18:27.040 --> 1:18:29.559 Colin Morikawa, like I expect the winner to be in 1:18:29.560 --> 1:18:32.479 that camp. And I think this golf course sets up 1:18:32.479 --> 1:18:35.240 incredibly well for Bryson. Despite him being a very long hitter, 1:18:35.680 --> 1:18:40.320 he's also an incredible putter, and I think that is 1:18:40.360 --> 1:18:43.879 going to shine through Bryson on the greens. His calculated approach. 1:18:44.560 --> 1:18:47.120 He's going to turn a lot of potential three putts 1:18:47.160 --> 1:18:51.439 into two puts that a lot of other golfers will struggle. 1:18:51.479 --> 1:18:55.040 So the reason I'm saying that is that if we 1:18:55.120 --> 1:18:57.920 get a bomber who wins, like some of that could 1:18:57.960 --> 1:19:01.479 be the distance advantage that are realizing. Dustin Johnson won 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:03.879 here in twenty sixteen, Like distance is still an advantage, 1:19:03.920 --> 1:19:06.360 But I think if we see Bryson win, it's not 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:10.719 necessarily necessarily a reflection of the golf course being bomb 1:19:10.800 --> 1:19:11.400 and gouge. 1:19:11.880 --> 1:19:14.599 Yeah, well, Bryson has a number of other skills, and 1:19:14.680 --> 1:19:17.720 so I mean that will be the narrative surely if 1:19:18.040 --> 1:19:21.960 Bryson does win that this was a bombing gouge fest. 1:19:22.000 --> 1:19:24.599 But yeah, we know that he can do a number 1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:26.960 of different things and this might be a very good 1:19:26.960 --> 1:19:30.360 course for him. He did well here in twenty sixteen, 1:19:30.840 --> 1:19:34.559 and he's a very different player now, But but he 1:19:34.680 --> 1:19:40.360 proved in twenty sixteen that he can handle this golf course, 1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:42.639 that he's that he suited to it, that it doesn't 1:19:42.640 --> 1:19:45.120 bother him, And I think that's a big deal. 1:19:45.400 --> 1:19:47.120 I think Bryson may win this golf tournament. 1:19:47.439 --> 1:19:50.720 Well, I'm picking him. He's my one and done pick 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:54.799 from kicking Scotty. I've been saving him for Oakmont, Scotty 1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:58.519 yet in our one and done league, I'm picking Scott No. 1:19:58.720 --> 1:20:00.639 I think I've probably already used I didn't want to done, 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:03.360 but like official pick Scottie. But I think Bryson is 1:20:03.400 --> 1:20:05.080 a very very strong contender here. 1:20:05.960 --> 1:20:09.440 All right, let's get to some holes to watch at Oakmont, 1:20:09.880 --> 1:20:12.559 some holes that were excited to see the pros tackle. 1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:16.400 What comes to mind for you first here, Joseph. Three 1:20:16.439 --> 1:20:19.760 holes stand out for me. I think number two. 1:20:20.920 --> 1:20:25.320 I love watching the second hole, short four three hundred 1:20:25.320 --> 1:20:28.559 and forty five yards or so. A bunker that cuts 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:31.479 in that kind of separates whether or not you want 1:20:31.479 --> 1:20:34.040 to hit something like two sixty two seventy off the 1:20:34.080 --> 1:20:34.639 tee and then. 1:20:34.560 --> 1:20:37.680 Have big barker cuts in on the right yeah. 1:20:37.400 --> 1:20:39.559 Correct, yes, or if you want to go for it 1:20:40.479 --> 1:20:45.160 extremely severe runoff on the front that made a mockery 1:20:45.200 --> 1:20:47.479 of a lot of golfers in twenty sixteen who thought 1:20:47.520 --> 1:20:49.320 the hit good shots in whether it was a wedge 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:51.240 or their te shot that kind of runs up onto 1:20:51.280 --> 1:20:53.360 the front of the green, but then ends up rolling 1:20:53.400 --> 1:20:54.719 way back into their feet. 1:20:54.960 --> 1:20:57.360 It gave Brooks Koepka fits. 1:20:57.360 --> 1:21:00.639 Was rewatching the twenty sixteen final broadcast, and yeah, that's 1:21:00.680 --> 1:21:04.280 a shot where some golfers will probably complain that it 1:21:04.479 --> 1:21:08.240 violates the fairness doctrine that you hit some good shots 1:21:08.280 --> 1:21:10.120 that you think should be rewarded and then end up 1:21:10.120 --> 1:21:11.760 in a worse spot than you started. I think that's 1:21:11.760 --> 1:21:13.200 going to be a really cool hole to watch. And 1:21:13.240 --> 1:21:16.920 then I like sixteen and seventeen a lot coming down 1:21:16.920 --> 1:21:19.800 the stretch. The final stretch is one where there's a 1:21:20.000 --> 1:21:23.559 range of scores that are available to you. The sixteenth hole, 1:21:23.640 --> 1:21:27.519 long par three, has a bunker short right that's been 1:21:27.560 --> 1:21:31.519 removed since the twenty sixteen US Open. I actually really 1:21:31.560 --> 1:21:33.840 like removing that bunker, and now you'd have a shot 1:21:33.880 --> 1:21:37.439 from the rough to a severely elevated green that would 1:21:37.479 --> 1:21:41.000 be impossible to get any spin on and would result 1:21:41.040 --> 1:21:42.360 in a very difficult up and down. 1:21:42.960 --> 1:21:46.080 I was there, Actually I had that shot impossible right. 1:21:46.160 --> 1:21:48.559 It was completely blind. I mean I actually hit my 1:21:48.600 --> 1:21:52.200 shot of the day and hit it within about four feet. Nice, 1:21:52.200 --> 1:21:54.400 but it was like it was fly. I was flying 1:21:54.479 --> 1:21:58.960 blind with that shot for sure, and it is it's 1:21:59.000 --> 1:22:01.280 one of the few places that Oakmont where you can 1:22:01.400 --> 1:22:04.479 really see the construction work on the green because that 1:22:04.560 --> 1:22:08.240 part of the green was very lifted up, probably initially 1:22:08.240 --> 1:22:11.080 by just building the bunker, but now it's just this 1:22:11.240 --> 1:22:14.120 deep hollow and the rough is going to be very 1:22:14.560 --> 1:22:15.559 very thick down there. 1:22:16.400 --> 1:22:18.840 And then the other seventeen there is another short four 1:22:18.880 --> 1:22:23.160 that's going to get a lot of attention. Small landing area, 1:22:23.240 --> 1:22:24.919 but I do think you're going to see the aggressive 1:22:24.960 --> 1:22:29.280 strategy payoff both on two and on seventeen. But those 1:22:29.280 --> 1:22:32.320 are cool holes to watch where it does get narrower 1:22:32.840 --> 1:22:36.080 the farther up you hit the t shot a lot 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:36.679 of range. 1:22:37.160 --> 1:22:38.720 You know you can make birdie there. You could see 1:22:38.720 --> 1:22:39.360 some bogies. 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:42.320 To me, those stand out as being a few of 1:22:42.360 --> 1:22:45.639 the most distinctive holes and some where the tournaments could 1:22:45.720 --> 1:22:48.120 be not necessarily one or lost right, especially on the 1:22:48.120 --> 1:22:49.680 second hole. It's too early in the round to win 1:22:49.760 --> 1:22:52.400 or lose the tournament, but those will be pivotal holes 1:22:52.400 --> 1:22:54.400 and I think they play well for professional golfers. 1:22:54.760 --> 1:22:57.960 Yeah. I like seventeen a lot, both as a pro 1:22:58.040 --> 1:23:00.600 golf hole and a hole for amateur I think it 1:23:00.680 --> 1:23:04.000 might actually play better for amateurs because the choice for 1:23:04.680 --> 1:23:07.040 the choice of you know, going at the green or 1:23:07.080 --> 1:23:11.920 playing out to the right in the fairly wide fairway 1:23:11.960 --> 1:23:16.439 out there is actually a great choice, and there's a 1:23:16.479 --> 1:23:19.880 lot of risk for going out the green. Probably most 1:23:19.920 --> 1:23:22.479 pros are going to attack this hole, But what I've 1:23:22.520 --> 1:23:26.160 heard is that they've added some some deeper rough to 1:23:26.240 --> 1:23:29.800 the left of that green, because left was the big 1:23:29.880 --> 1:23:33.640 bailout in twenty sixteen, and so we'll see if that 1:23:33.800 --> 1:23:37.519 is any kind of deterrent. But there's some room to 1:23:37.520 --> 1:23:39.760 play up short of that green, so I'd expect that 1:23:40.120 --> 1:23:42.920 the pros to kind of go at that portion of 1:23:42.960 --> 1:23:45.400 the hole. But the design of that hole is super cool. 1:23:45.400 --> 1:23:48.599 It's almost like George Thomas hols. It's got a little 1:23:48.600 --> 1:23:51.679 bit of ten at Riviera in it because the green 1:23:52.200 --> 1:23:56.240 is kind of lifted up and tilted away from the 1:23:57.000 --> 1:23:59.800 safe portion of the fairway, and so if you play 1:23:59.800 --> 1:24:02.599 out safe, you just have this really really tricky short 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:03.639 approach into that green. 1:24:03.800 --> 1:24:05.800 That's interesting. I'm not sure I would have would have 1:24:05.840 --> 1:24:09.240 described it as a George Thomas inspired Well, it wouldn't 1:24:09.240 --> 1:24:11.920 be inspired, but it was inspired. But it's a similar, 1:24:11.960 --> 1:24:13.360 but it is kind of it has a little bit 1:24:13.360 --> 1:24:15.720 of ten in Riviera now that you outline, especially with 1:24:15.800 --> 1:24:17.599 left kind of being the bailout and then hitting a 1:24:17.920 --> 1:24:19.840 chip shot out of the rough up the spine of 1:24:19.840 --> 1:24:20.120 the green. 1:24:20.160 --> 1:24:23.000 So it's a good point. The green. The green put 1:24:23.040 --> 1:24:25.320 me immediately in mind of the of the tenth green 1:24:25.320 --> 1:24:28.479 at rivi Air. They're not exactly the same, but they 1:24:28.600 --> 1:24:31.960 have this similar kind of really striking tilt to them, 1:24:32.479 --> 1:24:35.679 and they're and they're pretty narrow, and if you play 1:24:35.720 --> 1:24:39.280 safe off the tee then you face a very very 1:24:39.280 --> 1:24:43.240 tough shot into a shallow angle into that green. 1:24:43.160 --> 1:24:45.400 In a bunker shot, that's what. That's way uphill and 1:24:45.439 --> 1:24:46.360 difficult to stop. 1:24:46.680 --> 1:24:49.599 Yeah, yeah, it's it's a cool hole, and it used 1:24:49.600 --> 1:24:52.720 to be way wider. The configuration of the bunkers used 1:24:52.760 --> 1:24:55.000 to be a little bit different. If you look at 1:24:54.800 --> 1:24:58.479 at an aerial shot that exists for that hole from 1:24:58.479 --> 1:25:01.280 the mid nineteen twenties, you're looking at it and you're thinking, 1:25:01.320 --> 1:25:04.880 I'm looking at Rivier, I'm looking at Lacc North. It 1:25:05.040 --> 1:25:07.360 is just kind of interesting to see that type of 1:25:07.439 --> 1:25:11.120 hole at Oakmont of all places. So holes that I'm 1:25:11.120 --> 1:25:14.200 looking forward to seventeen would be one of them. I 1:25:14.280 --> 1:25:17.600 really like the twelfth hole, side hill par five with 1:25:17.720 --> 1:25:23.680 staggered bunkers and a wildly tilted green falling away from 1:25:23.720 --> 1:25:26.479 the line of play. If you're left of that green, 1:25:26.880 --> 1:25:30.479 you're absolutely dead. And I'm just interested to see how 1:25:30.479 --> 1:25:34.320 players kind of tack their way up that hole, what 1:25:34.520 --> 1:25:38.559 happens when players try to go for the green on 1:25:38.640 --> 1:25:42.360 their second shot, because if they miss left, then it's 1:25:42.400 --> 1:25:46.080 not worth it to go for the green. So yeah, 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:49.360 I'm curious to see how pros approach that hole. And 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:52.200 then of course I'm looking forward to number eight, the 1:25:52.240 --> 1:25:56.840 long par three, because people apparently hate long par threes. 1:25:58.240 --> 1:26:01.000 We found out during the tournament and at Merefield Village 1:26:01.000 --> 1:26:03.200 that there are certain pros who don't think that a 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:05.479 part three can be any good if it's over two 1:26:05.560 --> 1:26:09.120 hundred yards, which has been just an astonishing revelation to me. 1:26:09.479 --> 1:26:14.080 Can't I can't believe what I'm hearing. Yeah, again, that's 1:26:14.120 --> 1:26:14.799 a big topic. 1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:17.080 I do think part of where that comes from is 1:26:17.160 --> 1:26:21.200 a little bit of an anti rollback take that is 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:23.799 adjacent to, hey, you don't have to make golf holes 1:26:23.840 --> 1:26:25.680 long for them to be difficult, and I do think 1:26:25.720 --> 1:26:28.439 that is part part, not entirely, but part of what 1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:29.679 is motivating that comment. 1:26:30.640 --> 1:26:32.800 All right, so those are some holes to watch for. 1:26:33.360 --> 1:26:37.040 That is a lot of information about Oakmont. We really 1:26:37.040 --> 1:26:40.000 went deep there. Hope people enjoyed that. This is something 1:26:40.040 --> 1:26:43.160 I'm thinking about doing for major courses every once in 1:26:43.200 --> 1:26:46.880 a while when there is a meaty topic to dig into, 1:26:47.400 --> 1:26:50.479 then we'll do a longer version of the Designing Golf 1:26:50.520 --> 1:26:53.599 podcast like this. But thanks for doing this with me, Joseph. 1:26:53.600 --> 1:27:05.879 I appreciate it. This episode of Designing Golf was produced 1:27:06.120 --> 1:27:10.200 by PJ Clark. Thank you, PJ. If you like this 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:13.599 kind of deep dive approach to golf architecture, then join 1:27:13.880 --> 1:27:16.439 Friday Golf Club. What are you waiting for? This is 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:19.600 basically what we do in Friday Golf Club. There's a 1:27:19.640 --> 1:27:22.639 lot on offer there content wise, and you also get 1:27:22.640 --> 1:27:27.439 exclusive access to Friday Golf events as well as nice 1:27:27.439 --> 1:27:31.360 little merchandise deals and various things of that nature. We're 1:27:31.360 --> 1:27:34.000 building a great community in Friday Golf Club and I'd 1:27:34.000 --> 1:27:37.439 love for you to join us. All right, thank you 1:27:37.479 --> 1:27:40.320 for listening, Enjoy the US Open, and we'll be back 1:27:40.360 --> 1:27:46.719 again soon with another episode.