Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility and it's subject
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.
Speaker 2: Eleven.
Speaker 1: And it hasn't.
Speaker 2: Been easy a hundred years. That'sad man.
Speaker 1: I'm a kid.
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know
Speaker 3: that was ah, that was real painful, man, No, because
Speaker 3: my life was discarded as if you know, like I
Speaker 3: was a piece of trash or something, you know, a
Speaker 3: hundred years and I had dreams I wanted to do
Speaker 3: things I wouldn't committing crimes.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I was a very good young man.
Speaker 4: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops
Speaker 4: have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene,
Speaker 4: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,
Speaker 4: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off
Speaker 4: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so
Speaker 4: many of these wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1: They open it to sell door and I'll walk down
Speaker 1: STI and I actually walked down Stas to be outside.
Speaker 1: It felt very strange to be, like I said, to
Speaker 1: be walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought
Speaker 1: it was a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream.
Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This
Speaker 2: is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have
Speaker 2: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am, I don't even
Speaker 2: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to
Speaker 2: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned
Speaker 2: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years
Speaker 2: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, better on I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2: I always say I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
Speaker 2: glad you're here. And I want to start off by
Speaker 2: apologizing to you on behalf of the human race and
Speaker 2: America and people and just there's nothing that can be said,
Speaker 2: but let me just put that out there for starters
Speaker 2: and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris Barrell is
Speaker 2: an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for
Speaker 2: Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does work on well,
Speaker 2: he's worked on your case. You're telling your story and
Speaker 2: as many other as well as many others. So Chris, welcome,
Speaker 2: Glad you're here.
Speaker 5: Thanks very much, glad to be here.
Speaker 2: Chris, how did you first come across this story? And
Speaker 2: why did it impact you so much that you wanted
Speaker 2: to do an article about it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for
Speaker 5: Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases
Speaker 5: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,
Speaker 5: because we do know there's a fair amount of media
Speaker 5: attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount
Speaker 5: of time for a crime that they that they didn't
Speaker 5: do and they're released and it's you know, a lot
Speaker 5: of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I
Speaker 5: was there the day got out, as was a lot
Speaker 5: of other media. But the question came up, well, what
Speaker 5: is what is life really like? You know, once this
Speaker 5: kind of once the applause fades, what is what is
Speaker 5: what is a person's life really like? So initially Fred
Speaker 5: was not that keen on me proffering this idea of
Speaker 5: following him around at different points over the course of
Speaker 5: about a year, but I met with him on a
Speaker 5: couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and so
Speaker 5: we just struck up this this intervals of trying to
Speaker 5: meet up and I wanted to see him in different situations,
Speaker 5: trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks, the
Speaker 5: basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do you
Speaker 5: find shelter, how do you? How do you feed yourself?
Speaker 5: And so for the first few months he didn't he
Speaker 5: didn't have a job. He had a little bit of
Speaker 5: money from from a go Fundme site and he had
Speaker 5: food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,
Speaker 5: which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a
Speaker 5: shift and they'd be telling them, well, we've only got
Speaker 5: a couple hours work instead of a full shift. And
Speaker 5: he'd walk home through the snow in the street because
Speaker 5: people didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot
Speaker 5: of snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until
Speaker 5: sometime late winter, early spring that he got this job
Speaker 5: precision grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really
Speaker 5: grateful to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent
Speaker 5: in most cities in America is really high, and the
Speaker 5: most he could afford was basically a room and a basement.
Speaker 5: And he said at least once that that room kind
Speaker 5: of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had
Speaker 5: was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light
Speaker 5: coming into it and that was the best that his
Speaker 5: circumstance this can allow.
Speaker 2: So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even
Speaker 2: though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've
Speaker 2: told over seventy stories already. Uh and just and I've
Speaker 2: been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm
Speaker 2: the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought
Speaker 2: I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know,
Speaker 2: seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old
Speaker 2: child really just scared out of your mind faced with
Speaker 2: this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of
Speaker 2: Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just
Speaker 2: hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time.
Speaker 2: You were living in a foster home at that time, right, Yes.
Speaker 1: I was living a foster home. I was placed in
Speaker 1: it by DYS. I have some juvenile cases and I
Speaker 1: got convicted too. I got sentenced to like to DYS
Speaker 1: and he sent me to Boys to Center and a
Speaker 1: state that a little while month from there to program
Speaker 1: State of Football six months, I believe, and they decided
Speaker 1: that I need to be in a fosseter home. So
Speaker 1: I was in a fossil home at that time.
Speaker 2: And you were not a big guy either. You were
Speaker 2: like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened,
Speaker 2: you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You
Speaker 2: were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario like
Speaker 2: this is. No one's prepared for it. But let's go
Speaker 2: back to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean,
Speaker 2: how did this happen?
Speaker 1: Was?
Speaker 2: Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of
Speaker 2: a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give
Speaker 2: us a little background on that? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is. Fred
Speaker 5: was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen, charged
Speaker 5: with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy
Speaker 5: part of the story was that one of another cab
Speaker 5: driver who saw three young Africa American men get into
Speaker 5: a cab, said he was able to id one of
Speaker 5: them another the second person he couldn't id, And the
Speaker 5: police used the practice they used back then of hypnotizing
Speaker 5: a witness in a case, believing that the brain functioned
Speaker 5: a lot like a videotape, and that you could put
Speaker 5: a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind to
Speaker 5: a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain would
Speaker 5: see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was one
Speaker 5: of the pieces that led police to arrest and charge
Speaker 5: Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.
Speaker 2: But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to
Speaker 2: identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time?
Speaker 2: Did you know these people?
Speaker 1: I was not in the scene. I was in the
Speaker 1: Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't
Speaker 1: know how he became to identify me. I really can't
Speaker 1: answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of
Speaker 1: the cab driver of the cab in the front page
Speaker 1: of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number.
Speaker 1: I guess one of his friends used to break that
Speaker 1: cap and he thought he's the perpetrators get into the
Speaker 1: cap the previous night, and I guess he just went
Speaker 1: to the police station and tried to cooperate with the police.
Speaker 1: There was hypnosis involved. I think he was showing my
Speaker 1: picture a few times, like four or five, six times,
Speaker 1: and when they hypnotized them, instead of him actually placing it,
Speaker 1: you know, actually viewing the people the perpetrator at the
Speaker 1: scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot. Sort of
Speaker 1: my face from the mug shot was in his mind.
Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, I mean what we know that hypnosis
Speaker 2: is going back to what Chris was saying, hypnosis will
Speaker 2: make you see things you haven't seen before, but they
Speaker 2: will may not have any collection to reality. Right, that's
Speaker 2: the problem.
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything
Speaker 1: to do with when someone shows you a photograph five
Speaker 1: or six times, their face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.
Speaker 2: Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know
Speaker 2: about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the
Speaker 2: same image repeated over and over again, it's going to
Speaker 2: play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start
Speaker 2: to go to that place.
Speaker 1: And was this That's why I think what happened? He
Speaker 1: just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something.
Speaker 1: I really can't I really can't answer that question how
Speaker 1: he picked me out? But he did.
Speaker 2: Was there was this robbery at night?
Speaker 1: Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four o'clock.
Speaker 2: In the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right, and
Speaker 2: this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we know
Speaker 2: how I mean, and we also know that the brain
Speaker 2: when you witness a violent crime, I wouldn't. Identification is
Speaker 2: notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts into
Speaker 2: the studio now and attacks one of us, and then
Speaker 2: they put us in a lineup, there's almost just as
Speaker 2: much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the
Speaker 2: correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same
Speaker 2: way that we will, which is a crazy and people
Speaker 2: listening going, that's not true, but it has been proven
Speaker 2: over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,
Speaker 2: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when
Speaker 2: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So,
Speaker 2: when you're either the victim or when your witness to
Speaker 2: a violent crime, as this one was, we know that
Speaker 2: your senses are altered because of the fact that you're
Speaker 2: just scared out of your brain literally. So and this
Speaker 2: was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this.
Speaker 5: So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police,
Speaker 5: had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American
Speaker 5: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes to
Speaker 5: or allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit
Speaker 5: south of the city in Roslindale. And then there was
Speaker 5: another witness that also had pretty serious question marks around
Speaker 5: how the police interacted with this witness, and this other
Speaker 5: witness claimed that he did actually see the shooting out
Speaker 5: of a window of an apartment in the housing project.
Speaker 5: What Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and
Speaker 5: trying to re engage with this case and prove that
Speaker 5: Fred didn't do it, was see that this witness was
Speaker 5: I think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know,
Speaker 5: cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his
Speaker 5: family that if they testified against Fred that they would
Speaker 5: be moved out of this project housing project which was
Speaker 5: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.
Speaker 5: And again this witness was white.
Speaker 2: Wow, So you talk about coercion or you know, and
Speaker 2: isn't not a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is
Speaker 2: that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who
Speaker 2: watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness.
Speaker 2: You go to prison for riving witness in America, right,
Speaker 2: But the government is able to offer the best bribe
Speaker 2: that there is. I mean, in this case, it was
Speaker 2: a new home, right, It's almost like a game show.
Speaker 2: Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want
Speaker 2: you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can
Speaker 2: threaten you, and they do that very often, will take
Speaker 2: your kids away, will lock you up for some prior
Speaker 2: thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges
Speaker 2: or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's
Speaker 2: it's amazing that the weapons that they have in there
Speaker 2: are so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But
Speaker 2: what were you going to say? Fred?
Speaker 1: Also, the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened
Speaker 1: to us in their projects. This witness, I sort of
Speaker 1: I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other
Speaker 1: from time to time in the projects, so he was
Speaker 1: familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really
Speaker 1: that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your
Speaker 1: face and they see your your picture in the in
Speaker 1: the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated,
Speaker 1: they're picking out a familiar face. So just because he
Speaker 1: was familiar with by face, he sort of just placed
Speaker 1: me at the scene of crime based on the fact
Speaker 1: that he was familiar with my face, not because he
Speaker 1: saw me at the scene of the crime.
Speaker 2: So we have a couple of factors here that are
Speaker 2: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,
Speaker 2: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,
Speaker 2: and then it gets worse. So you were were you
Speaker 2: at home when you were arrested? How did this all
Speaker 2: go down? And how long did you have to wait
Speaker 2: for trial? Who was your I assume you had a
Speaker 2: public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks
Speaker 2: for us?
Speaker 1: Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I
Speaker 1: got it. I was actually when I went. I was
Speaker 1: on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I
Speaker 1: had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't.
Speaker 1: She claims I ran away, but I never really ran away.
Speaker 1: I just vanished from time to time and came back.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I showed up on November fifteen to her
Speaker 1: house and I didn't know that, but she had previously
Speaker 1: reported me for running. So when I showed up on
Speaker 1: November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay that night.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, she didn't want me to
Speaker 1: do the next morning. I had to leave the next morning.
Speaker 1: So the next morning came and she told me I
Speaker 1: had to leave because she reported me running. She didn't
Speaker 1: want the police at are out, so I left and
Speaker 1: I was on probation, so I went to the probation
Speaker 1: officer and sort of told her what was going on,
Speaker 1: and based on that, they sent me back to another
Speaker 1: facility that I was previously held at before, a juvenile facility,
Speaker 1: and I was there for a few football a little
Speaker 1: over a couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing
Speaker 1: Cozy Tutus came in one evening and they went up
Speaker 1: to the main desk to talk to the counsel of
Speaker 1: work there, and maybe about two minutes after that, they
Speaker 1: called my name and I went to the desk and
Speaker 1: they asked me my name. I told my name is
Speaker 1: Frederick Claim. They told me they needed to speak with me,
Speaker 1: so they took me to like a little room off
Speaker 1: to the side, and in that room they informed me
Speaker 1: that DA was arrested me for murder. So I really
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about the murder until it actually they
Speaker 1: came there and arrest me for it, and my attorney
Speaker 1: at the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed
Speaker 1: about the murder.
Speaker 2: How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm
Speaker 2: assuming that there was either new years two years wait. Wow,
Speaker 2: So that whole thing about it in the constitution.
Speaker 1: Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial
Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 2: Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right
Speaker 2: to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very
Speaker 2: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't
Speaker 2: know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,
Speaker 2: but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical
Speaker 2: in that sense. So you're in jail for two years
Speaker 2: of waiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because
Speaker 2: it's always I think for our listeners and even for
Speaker 2: me an eye opener, to hear how these things go,
Speaker 2: especially in a case as serious as this one where
Speaker 2: you were facing life in prison. Tell us what you
Speaker 2: can remember about the trial, for instance, did you think
Speaker 2: if you can remember, and again, you were in prison
Speaker 2: for so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went
Speaker 2: to prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty
Speaker 2: eight years, which means you were in prison for almost
Speaker 2: two and a half times as long as you had
Speaker 2: been alive, right, and your life experience as a sixteen
Speaker 2: year old, Let's face it, the first three or four years,
Speaker 2: we're not even really sentient beings. We're kind of just
Speaker 2: stumbling around, eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing, right,
Speaker 2: and playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us
Speaker 2: a book and hug us or if we're lucky. So
Speaker 2: you know, for you, your life experience was so brief
Speaker 2: before you entered the system, and you had already been
Speaker 2: in and out of the system. So here you are
Speaker 2: at trial, and did you, if you can recall, did
Speaker 2: you feel like when the jury went out that you
Speaker 2: were going to be convicted or did you still have
Speaker 2: hope that you the justice would be done.
Speaker 1: I wasn't really sure there was a fifty fifty chance
Speaker 1: that I was going to get convicted. I thought, well,
Speaker 1: once I get understand and tell the truth and so
Speaker 1: sort of present my case and present the evidence that
Speaker 1: actually proved that I was innocent and have present my otheribi,
Speaker 1: I thought I was I might have a chance of
Speaker 1: being found not guilty. So I was I was hoping
Speaker 1: that I was going to be found not guilty. But
Speaker 1: at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys,
Speaker 1: you know, there was a possible chance that I could
Speaker 1: get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was
Speaker 1: going to get found not guilty, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So
Speaker 1: I had a fifty to fifty chance.
Speaker 2: And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you,
Speaker 2: were they white or black?
Speaker 1: Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white,
Speaker 1: and one of them was black. But the one was
Speaker 1: black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much.
Speaker 1: But the two name was that yes, they was white.
Speaker 2: And the reason I raised that question is because we
Speaker 2: know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that
Speaker 2: cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so
Speaker 2: than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone
Speaker 2: of their own race. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: reasons for that. We don't have to get into all
Speaker 2: of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening
Speaker 2: right now, as I always say on this always a
Speaker 2: potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a
Speaker 2: situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there
Speaker 2: was no evidence against you, so it was only the
Speaker 2: witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying
Speaker 2: against a black person, a Hispanic person testify against a
Speaker 2: white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.
Speaker 2: And so your case is an important one to highlight
Speaker 2: that particular factor, because again, the reason why I do
Speaker 2: this show, Fred is because I want to help to
Speaker 2: prevent these things from happening to other people in the future,
Speaker 2: as I'm sure you do.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there was a well known fact
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one, the cross racial identification issue,
Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact.
Speaker 2: Now, right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So
Speaker 2: the jury comes back and it had to be the
Speaker 2: worst feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to
Speaker 2: life in prison, which is again a bizarre Yeah.
Speaker 1: A natural life, not just in life, a natural life.
Speaker 1: Life sort of means like a second degree life, but
Speaker 1: natural means a first to be life sentence with a
Speaker 1: chance no parole, which means like a you go to
Speaker 1: spend invest in your life in prison, you go and
Speaker 1: die in prison.
Speaker 2: And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 2: what kind of a system do we have where we
Speaker 2: can sent in someone who was really a child and
Speaker 2: adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 5: It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later,
Speaker 5: much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo
Speaker 5: some of that. So it did, at a very much
Speaker 5: later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're
Speaker 5: talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of
Speaker 5: just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone
Speaker 5: at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises
Speaker 5: a lot of really serious questions, but then to make
Speaker 5: that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to
Speaker 5: life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just think about it, a judge telling you, a
Speaker 1: sixteen year old kid, that you are incapable of changing,
Speaker 1: so therefore you need to spend the rest of your
Speaker 1: life in adults prison. You know, and often think about that.
Speaker 1: And they took me out of a bad situation and
Speaker 1: they put me in even a worse situation because a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking
Speaker 1: about a lot of that stuff and how I was
Speaker 1: going to survive that, whether I was going to end
Speaker 1: up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have
Speaker 1: someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we
Speaker 1: think that you are incapable of changing.
Speaker 2: And when you went to prison, this was you know,
Speaker 2: this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a
Speaker 2: very violent place and you were in amongst people who
Speaker 2: were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here
Speaker 2: you are like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did
Speaker 2: you manage to survive as a young not a particularly
Speaker 2: big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy
Speaker 2: in that situation. How did you manage to survive?
Speaker 1: Well, personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A
Speaker 1: lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence
Speaker 1: sort of took a liking to me, and they just
Speaker 1: sort of just gave me, just told me the way
Speaker 1: of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something cheap,
Speaker 1: it to yourself. Don't talk to corrections officers. Try to
Speaker 1: stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to use
Speaker 1: that time to benefit me as a person, to change
Speaker 1: things about myself that I did not like, to sort
Speaker 1: of use that time to work on me as a
Speaker 1: human being. And they also let me. They also told
Speaker 1: me I had to figure out how to do the
Speaker 1: time and not let the time do me. And it
Speaker 1: took me quite a while to understand that. So, like
Speaker 1: what you mean, due to time and not let the
Speaker 1: time do me. So basically what they was telling me,
Speaker 1: just what I was telling you, is just try to
Speaker 1: use just bad experience and focus on the things that
Speaker 1: I do do not like about myself and the things
Speaker 1: that I can change to make me feel good about
Speaker 1: myself and to make other people see me in a
Speaker 1: way that I want them to see me. So I
Speaker 1: it was a little bit of that, And it was
Speaker 1: just a little bit of me just figuring out who
Speaker 1: I can trust and who I can't trust, and also
Speaker 1: not to put myself in a certain position to have
Speaker 1: some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know,
Speaker 1: make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with
Speaker 1: them about my situation and just be aware of their motives,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: And then there was a sort of a hero emerged.
Speaker 2: If you could call it that. From this situation, a
Speaker 2: guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out
Speaker 2: of this right and introduced you to a very unlikely
Speaker 2: character who became almost like, I don't use too strong
Speaker 2: of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And
Speaker 2: can you talk about that?
Speaker 1: Oh much?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So
Speaker 2: can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 1: Well. Roosevelt Picket was as an old gentleman I think
Speaker 1: he was like in the sixties, and I knew him
Speaker 1: at that time. I knew of for about twelve years,
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit
Speaker 1: and he had he was he was walking the King
Speaker 1: he had an accident. He used to do cariding works
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, so he fell off the roof
Speaker 1: and he used to walk around with a game. So
Speaker 1: h Anyway, I used to work and if I was
Speaker 1: in Bay State Prison at this time, and I was
Speaker 1: working downstairs on the first floor in the day room,
Speaker 1: and he lived on the first floor. And he was
Speaker 1: down there cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I
Speaker 1: was I was down there doing my job and everything,
Speaker 1: and he was. So we started talking about visits and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And he asked me, do I have
Speaker 1: anybody that you know, family members and friends that visit me?
Speaker 1: And I told him, uh, not really, I had my
Speaker 1: great aunt. She visited me like every two years, three
Speaker 1: years a year, whenever she can find time to do it.
Speaker 1: So then he asked me if I was if I
Speaker 1: wanted somebody to visit me, like from a church and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and I said, sure, why not. I
Speaker 1: grew up in the opportunity to meet somebody from church
Speaker 1: and just have a friend to come visit me. So
Speaker 1: he put me in touch with prison ministry. I think
Speaker 1: it was called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to fill
Speaker 1: out some forms and stuff like that, and I filled
Speaker 1: out the forms and he sent it in and I'm
Speaker 1: not quite sure how long after that then I met
Speaker 1: Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and I
Speaker 1: was back in I think that was like in ninety seven,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, And once he came to
Speaker 1: Bay State to visit me. We so our friendship developed
Speaker 1: and got stronger and stronger, and the more he visited me,
Speaker 1: the more I started talking about my case and me
Speaker 1: as a person and things I like and dislike and
Speaker 1: I just take this interest. And so he helped me
Speaker 1: somewhat get out of prison.
Speaker 2: And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if
Speaker 2: anybody would like to get involved in this, you know,
Speaker 2: helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends
Speaker 2: with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people
Speaker 2: ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying
Speaker 2: to connect people as best I can. And in fact,
Speaker 2: a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of
Speaker 2: an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If
Speaker 2: I was writing a movie about your story, I would
Speaker 2: name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up
Speaker 2: some sort of a sort of a very square looking
Speaker 2: white guy, right, sort of comes in out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: What was your reaction when you met this guy?
Speaker 1: Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind,
Speaker 1: he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere,
Speaker 1: he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I
Speaker 1: thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought,
Speaker 1: this is the kind of person that I need in
Speaker 1: my life to sort of help me take me out
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't
Speaker 1: really that social with in prison, so he sort of
Speaker 1: sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.
Speaker 1: So I thought he was a very nice person something
Speaker 1: that is, someone that I needed to have in my
Speaker 1: life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, and
Speaker 1: in many other ways after that to be ezact.
Speaker 2: And how important was that relationship to you?
Speaker 1: It was very important. I mean, how many people do
Speaker 1: you know will bring their their young, small children in
Speaker 1: to see a person in prison that's non family. So
Speaker 1: he became uh, I know I used this phrase before.
Speaker 1: He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became
Speaker 1: family to me, and and he's still family right now.
Speaker 1: So his friendship and him being part of my life
Speaker 1: was very very important then and it's very important now.
Speaker 1: He's still live my life right now.
Speaker 2: And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case,
Speaker 2: I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble
Speaker 2: where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing
Speaker 2: things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life
Speaker 2: without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all that.
Speaker 2: It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment.
Speaker 2: We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just
Speaker 2: reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.
Speaker 2: I mean, can you share some insight into this guy,
Speaker 2: because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of
Speaker 5: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to
Speaker 5: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with
Speaker 5: Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm
Speaker 5: guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as
Speaker 5: to how Fred talks and that people are kind of
Speaker 5: drawn to the way he talks and understands things about
Speaker 5: this really awful experience he had he had to go through.
Speaker 5: And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his
Speaker 5: two kids. I met one of his kids who's now,
Speaker 5: you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with
Speaker 5: them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I
Speaker 5: asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Doran
Speaker 5: and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people
Speaker 5: and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently
Speaker 5: during the year, like every few months, they would drive
Speaker 5: down and and go through. It's not easy to get
Speaker 5: into a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and
Speaker 5: get frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear
Speaker 5: exactly the right clothing or they turn you away, and
Speaker 5: you know they again they brought their little kids in
Speaker 5: to kind of hang out friend and sit there and
Speaker 5: play cards, and just the whole dynamic and relationship that
Speaker 5: was related to me really kind of me away.
Speaker 2: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and
Speaker 2: now all of a sudden he has sort of an
Speaker 2: adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long
Speaker 2: drive and they would come every couple of months. And
Speaker 2: there's one more quote, and I want to get back
Speaker 2: to the story because again this really touched me and
Speaker 2: I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going
Speaker 2: to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd
Speaker 2: all pile back in the car when our visit was
Speaker 2: over and it was just dead silence in the car.
Speaker 2: Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh, this is
Speaker 2: from Jackie Dibble. Let me say we start again, and
Speaker 2: missus Dibble. Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back
Speaker 2: in the car when our visit was over and it
Speaker 2: was just dead silence in the car. Because that's where
Speaker 2: it really hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under
Speaker 2: the barbed wire. We get to go home, and he doesn't,
Speaker 2: and it was just nobody would say anything on the
Speaker 2: way home and end quote. And I've had that feeling
Speaker 2: so many times now visiting people in prison and who
Speaker 2: I know are innocent, and then when I leave and
Speaker 2: that door slams behind and you can't take them with you.
Speaker 2: It's a horrible feeling. It's it's a sick feeling, actually,
Speaker 2: And Chris is nodding his head because he knows, and
Speaker 2: you know, it does drive me and I think all
Speaker 2: of us every day to try to do more to
Speaker 2: help people like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once
Speaker 2: you've experienced that. And I brought four people with me
Speaker 2: up to Sing Sing this weekend where we met many
Speaker 2: of the men who are stuck there, some of whom
Speaker 2: are innocent, some are not. But you know, I would
Speaker 2: say that ninety percent of the people that we met
Speaker 2: there don't belong there. You know, they've served their time,
Speaker 2: they made a mistake. I'm of the Brian Stevenson school.
Speaker 2: He's one of my heroes, and you know, he said,
Speaker 2: I believe everyone is better than the worst thing they've
Speaker 2: ever done. You know, I think in our system we
Speaker 2: overincarcerate to such an extreme degree, we over punish. The
Speaker 2: institutions that we have that are called correctional institutions are
Speaker 2: not by and large, and all of it needs to change.
Speaker 2: And that's why it's so important that you're here, Fred
Speaker 2: to tell your story. So I really appreciate that, and
Speaker 2: you too, Chris, So Fred tell us how this situation changed.
Speaker 2: Because you were sentenced to life in prison, you had
Speaker 2: no hope to get out. You found this inner strength,
Speaker 2: this grace, this courage that always mystifies me and amazes
Speaker 2: me and makes me, you know, draws me two people
Speaker 2: like yourself because I get so much out of just
Speaker 2: talking to you and spending time. And so how did
Speaker 2: you ultimately? I mean, we know how you survived because
Speaker 2: you explain that, But how did you get out? Because
Speaker 2: you're here now and that's a fantastic thing, and I know,
Speaker 2: and I want to talk about the struggle of being
Speaker 2: out as Well's what I call the second punishment. But
Speaker 2: how did that? Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd
Speaker 2: you get out?
Speaker 1: Well? I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa
Speaker 1: Cavanaugh from the CPCs innocent program. She's my attorney, she
Speaker 1: was my attorney on my pill We drafted and critique
Speaker 1: and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that.
Speaker 1: I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between
Speaker 1: by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug
Speaker 1: shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I
Speaker 1: mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that
Speaker 1: stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, I will say, late December twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and
Speaker 1: opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to
Speaker 1: see the parole board. So once that law changed, that
Speaker 1: law allowed me to see the parole board. So at
Speaker 1: that particular time, I was not I was still thinking
Speaker 1: about and preparing for my Rule thirty emotion, but I
Speaker 1: was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended
Speaker 1: up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I
Speaker 1: should say, and the results of that I ended up
Speaker 1: getting presented my case. The parole board, stating that I
Speaker 1: was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for
Speaker 1: the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue,
Speaker 1: the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested
Speaker 1: for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff,
Speaker 1: but I did not take responsibility for the current case
Speaker 1: that I was doing time for with much the murder.
Speaker 1: And I let them know that if I did do it,
Speaker 1: I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt.
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. So I did not admit
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I was letting them know that prison so you I
Speaker 1: mean by be being in prison, I was not the
Speaker 1: same person I was when I first went to prison.
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.
Speaker 1: So I just explained to them how different I was
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically
Speaker 1: I got up. I was going I was set to
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelfth, but August twelfth was on
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was
Speaker 1: on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite
Speaker 1: sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is
Speaker 1: generated a week before I was scheduled to get released
Speaker 1: our parole.
Speaker 2: That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things
Speaker 2: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the
Speaker 2: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,
Speaker 2: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things
Speaker 2: that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite
Speaker 2: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was
Speaker 2: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite
Speaker 2: were the most respected people in America at that time,
Speaker 2: one of the most respected journalists of all time. So
Speaker 2: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh
Speaker 2: air after spending a longer time than most of the
Speaker 2: people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right,
Speaker 2: I mean two people in the studio here who haven't
Speaker 2: been alive that long thirty eight years.
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys,
Speaker 1: thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and
Speaker 1: their family, and Victim Izario he was there. I hugged him.
Speaker 1: And once I did that, I started talking to the
Speaker 1: media sa. That was the first thing I did start
Speaker 1: talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff.
Speaker 1: But to answer your question what it was like, it
Speaker 1: was felt very strange to be walking without outside of prison,
Speaker 1: without no shackles on my feet. That felt very strange.
Speaker 1: Every time I left prison, no matter to go to
Speaker 1: the hospital or whatever, to court, whatever, they always had
Speaker 1: shackles on your feet. And once they actually said that
Speaker 1: you're free to go, and they put me in the
Speaker 1: in the in the like the whole itself for a
Speaker 1: little while, for like an hour to finalize everything. So
Speaker 1: once everything was finalized and they opened it, uh the
Speaker 1: cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I actually walked
Speaker 1: downstairs to be outside. It felt very strange to be,
Speaker 1: like I said, to be walking without thrown shackles on
Speaker 1: my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again,
Speaker 1: it wasn't a dream, but it was kind of overwhelming.
Speaker 1: It was I was happy, I was somewhat cautious, and
Speaker 1: I was like in shocked to some degree. So it
Speaker 1: was it was a combination of all those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,
Speaker 2: just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a
Speaker 2: joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea
Speaker 2: that you know, everyone sees on the on the news,
Speaker 2: the photographs or the video of someone like yourself coming
Speaker 2: out and there's all this joy and you have if
Speaker 2: if you're fortunate enough like you were, to have some
Speaker 2: friends and family around and there's news media and there's
Speaker 2: cameras and maybe the sun is shining. But there's another
Speaker 2: side to that too, right, I mean, you come out
Speaker 2: and you get nothing like most of the people. And
Speaker 2: this is crazy because for twenty five years I've been
Speaker 2: doing this work and anyone I talk to that's not awhere.
Speaker 2: You know, when I meet somebody new and I'm talking
Speaker 2: about decision because I talk about it everywhere, the first
Speaker 2: thing they want to know is does the exonery you
Speaker 2: get paid? Like, just tell me they get money, And
Speaker 2: I have to tell them that in most cases no,
Speaker 2: and even in the cases when they do, it takes
Speaker 2: an unconscionably long time, years and years. This is something
Speaker 2: that the Interests Project has been deeply involved with. Recently,
Speaker 2: we just passed the compensation statute in Kansas, so it's
Speaker 2: a thirty first state actually have compensation statues. There's still
Speaker 2: nineteen states that have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred,
Speaker 2: coming out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone
Speaker 2: in as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to rebuild your life. I want to focus for a
Speaker 2: minute on those challenges, which I don't think get the
Speaker 2: type of attention that they deserve. And I think we
Speaker 2: as a society owe you and every man and woman
Speaker 2: that has been through this type of ordeal, we owe
Speaker 2: you more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe
Speaker 2: you a debt. And I think that as soon as
Speaker 2: you get out that should start to be getting repaid.
Speaker 2: But that's not the way it works, and your case
Speaker 2: is a very strong example of that. So can you
Speaker 2: talk about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any
Speaker 2: money yet, right well.
Speaker 1: My attorneys working on that right now. So it's still
Speaker 1: to be remained, to be still being rocked on.
Speaker 2: And how how long have you been out?
Speaker 1: Not all the year now, so it's been August eighth,
Speaker 1: so it's been.
Speaker 5: Good over year, fifteen to sixteen months.
Speaker 1: Fifteen months much like that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit.
Speaker 5: I mean, this was this was this was the focus
Speaker 5: of my reporting for the last year was to kind
Speaker 5: of answer that question, what's life like when you get
Speaker 5: out of prison? His his his, Fred's murder conviction was vacated.
Speaker 5: And you know, my editor has suggested, why do we
Speaker 5: see what life's like in the first thirty days? And
Speaker 5: that turned into what are we?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 5: Why don't I check in with Fred from time to
Speaker 5: time over the course of a year, and and Fred
Speaker 5: can kind of fill in a lot of this stuff,
Speaker 5: but that a lot of it was, you know, what
Speaker 5: what do you do to survive? You need you need housing,
Speaker 5: you need shelter, and you need some income to provide
Speaker 5: that shelter and food. Just the base bear basics of survival,
Speaker 5: and that was what you know, Fred and I would
Speaker 5: kind of meet up and he would very graciously let
Speaker 5: me tag along with him as he talked to people
Speaker 5: about filling out job applications and trying to work on
Speaker 5: a resume, and watched him move from one apartment to
Speaker 5: another apartment, and I think, you know, maybe Fred, you
Speaker 5: talk a little bit about what those experiences like.
Speaker 1: Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been
Speaker 1: kind of challenging when you've been in prison for I long. Obviously,
Speaker 1: technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed to the
Speaker 1: point where it's all new to me. I all often
Speaker 1: make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again and
Speaker 1: I have to learn everything all over again, including technology.
Speaker 1: So and even how do you fill out job applications now?
Speaker 1: It's different compared to when I was back in the
Speaker 1: seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to
Speaker 1: fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything,
Speaker 1: housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning
Speaker 1: the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that
Speaker 1: I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating
Speaker 1: and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually
Speaker 1: I get there. I just need to be patient with myself.
Speaker 1: But trying to survive out here when you've been in
Speaker 1: prison that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job.
Speaker 1: It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.
Speaker 2: Oh what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now.
Speaker 1: Fred, I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: So that's right by Boston, right.
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it's by Boston. But I wouldn't
Speaker 1: call it right by. It's some distances, but it is by.
Speaker 5: Boston, about an hour north of Boston.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Well wow. And when you don't drive, that's another thing.
Speaker 1: I really I haven't really started driving yet. And when
Speaker 1: you when you don't know how to drive, you're very limited.
Speaker 1: So I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and
Speaker 1: low and that's been kind of challenging. The public transportation
Speaker 1: here is not that great. It's shuts down at seven
Speaker 1: o'clock in the evening, and that's been an issue that
Speaker 1: I still struggle with today. So I need to learn
Speaker 1: how to drive. In order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,
Speaker 1: just to get around, I need to learn how to drive.
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out when the right time is.
Speaker 1: Maybe there is no right timing. I just need to
Speaker 1: just jump into it and do it. But all that's
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging to me to figure out what's important,
Speaker 1: what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a
Speaker 1: big issue.
Speaker 2: And I can tell just from the way you know
Speaker 2: you are and the way that you've dealt with this
Speaker 2: situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre
Speaker 2: reason I know actually would have crumbled under the weight
Speaker 2: of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going to
Speaker 2: be successful, but I think all of us just need
Speaker 2: a little boost every once in a while. So I'm
Speaker 2: happy to say that that's something I'm gonna be able
Speaker 2: to to provide. So I do want to I want
Speaker 2: to ask you also, what if you can think of it,
Speaker 2: what's been your happiest moment since you got out. It's
Speaker 2: interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at a picture right now
Speaker 2: of you with the with the dibbles, with Dorin and Jackie.
Speaker 2: It's really sort of a funny picture. I mean, you
Speaker 2: have this giant smile on your face and the glasses
Speaker 2: on and they, you know, they're obviously smiling too, but
Speaker 2: I mean they're really white, these people are. You know,
Speaker 2: It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph because it's
Speaker 2: just such an unusual, uh you know, combination of different backgrounds.
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of humanity in that right, And
Speaker 2: there's a lot of beauty in it. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the
Speaker 2: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been
Speaker 2: as much of a shock as anything else, what's been
Speaker 2: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since
Speaker 2: you got out.
Speaker 1: Well, a few visionly my mother's grave. That was very happy.
Speaker 1: But I would say right now, the skydiving.
Speaker 2: Who you went skydiving?
Speaker 1: I went skydiving twice.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And I would say that. I said that because some
Speaker 1: guys that I was in prison with that end up
Speaker 1: passing away in prison often. You know, we often talked
Speaker 1: about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH
Speaker 1: about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to
Speaker 1: ourselves that they looked a lot of fun. You know,
Speaker 1: it looked like fun, and I looked like the people
Speaker 1: was enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was
Speaker 1: sort of like dedicating that moment to them because they
Speaker 1: sort of helped me change who I was as a person.
Speaker 1: They sort of helped me get back into my case
Speaker 1: and make me stay focused on that. So when I
Speaker 1: skydived the first time, it was just to honor them
Speaker 1: and for me to thank them and to show respect
Speaker 1: for them for what they did for me, because I
Speaker 1: at that time and I still do now, I consider
Speaker 1: myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment
Speaker 1: the first time and the second time too because the
Speaker 1: second time when I went skydiving, I went with a
Speaker 1: lot of exorninary people, people that was in my somewhat
Speaker 1: in my situation. We all had our individual cases that
Speaker 1: end up that we end up in prison for, but
Speaker 1: we all was innocent, and so it was kind of
Speaker 1: special to be with them that way. I felt, you know,
Speaker 1: that I was surrounded by people who actually knew what
Speaker 1: I was going through, and they didn't have no problem
Speaker 1: sharing what they was going through, what they went through
Speaker 1: in prison, and what they're dealing with now out here
Speaker 1: that you be shortage to share our experience and share
Speaker 1: their knowledge and help you each other. So that was
Speaker 1: kind of special. And also when I jump out the
Speaker 1: plane a second time, it's sort of reminded me of life,
Speaker 1: Like when you jump out the plane, there is no
Speaker 1: turning back. You came to say, well, I changed my mind,
Speaker 1: I want to go back. Once you jump out the plane,
Speaker 1: you and the elements, and so you got to face
Speaker 1: whatever there whatever fear you have, whatever there is, you
Speaker 1: got to face that. And it sort of reminds me
Speaker 1: about my life right now. Whatever it is in life
Speaker 1: that I'm uncomfortable with I have fear about, I have
Speaker 1: to try to face it and try to do the
Speaker 1: best I can. So to answer your question, the skydivingd
Speaker 1: was the most important thing to me.
Speaker 2: Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very
Speaker 2: just amazing to think about. But I will say this,
Speaker 2: if you can jump out of a plane, you can
Speaker 2: definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a
Speaker 2: deal right here in front of however many one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand people listening to this show, if you'll take your
Speaker 2: driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So
Speaker 2: that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure
Speaker 2: you can drive it. But if you can do it,
Speaker 2: we'll get you a car, all right. And then then
Speaker 2: then me and Chris are coming and we're going to
Speaker 2: take a ride with you. So because we're you jump
Speaker 2: out of a plane, I'll get on the car with
Speaker 2: you behind a wheel, no.
Speaker 1: Problem, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: All right, we got a deal. We got a deal.
Speaker 2: We have one hundred thousand witnesses, So there you go.
Speaker 2: Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that.
Speaker 2: And I am going to put you.
Speaker 1: To say something. It'll take one witnesses to get someone convicted,
Speaker 1: never mind one hundred thousand.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition
Speaker 2: here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of
Speaker 2: the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show,
Speaker 2: which is that at the end of the show, which
Speaker 2: is now, I always, of course thank both of you,
Speaker 2: Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your
Speaker 2: story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking
Speaker 2: you now. And then also at the end of the show,
Speaker 2: the featured part is where I get to stop talking
Speaker 2: and do all the listening. And how this works is
Speaker 2: I just turned the microphone over to you for any
Speaker 2: closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure,
Speaker 2: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,
Speaker 2: anything any last words.
Speaker 5: Well as always like, it's really fascinating for me to
Speaker 5: listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a
Speaker 5: reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him
Speaker 5: of work in a place and have editors that saw
Speaker 5: how important that was to do it. And it's again,
Speaker 5: I think Fred just went through something really awful and
Speaker 5: has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And
Speaker 5: it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support
Speaker 5: to him that he did because again he's able to
Speaker 5: kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense
Speaker 5: of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back
Speaker 5: to what it was like talking with him over these
Speaker 5: last many months. So happy to be here again.
Speaker 2: Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction,
Speaker 2: and now over to you Fred for your last words
Speaker 2: and thoughts.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I want to thank christ Barell
Speaker 1: for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but
Speaker 1: to come to me in the beginning when I first
Speaker 1: got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow
Speaker 1: me and talk about the person's life after the cameras
Speaker 1: go away. I'm sort of glad that he did not,
Speaker 1: because it made me stay true to who I was
Speaker 1: and it made me more focused about my situation and
Speaker 1: at the same time it brought me out of my
Speaker 1: shell so to speak, too, And I want to say
Speaker 1: that people sometimes ask me about why am I not
Speaker 1: bitter about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely
Speaker 1: upset about what happened to me. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I am a right
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I liked the person
Speaker 1: I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the
Speaker 1: process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of
Speaker 1: made me realize that too. So I thank him for
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I
Speaker 1: won't thank my attorneys, Lisa Cavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and
Speaker 1: my attorney who passed away, Emmanuel Howard. I want to
Speaker 1: thank all three them for helping me get to where
Speaker 1: I'm at today, and my supporters too. The Debil's Fred smiles.
Speaker 1: These so many people, so many people help me. I
Speaker 1: won't thank everybody for that.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I just took me a minute to collect myself.
Speaker 2: But well, once again, you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 2: today's episode featuring investigative journalists Chris Barrell and Fred Play,
Speaker 2: exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder
Speaker 2: he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on
Speaker 2: the show. And I look forward to to taking a
Speaker 2: ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud,
Speaker 2: I hope with YouTube guys, and maybe we'll go and
Speaker 2: pick up the dibbles along the way. So and that's
Speaker 2: a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks again,
Speaker 2: and we'll keep the conversation moving.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 6: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
Speaker 6: Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Speaker 2: Enesis Project and I really hope you'll join me in
Speaker 2: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
Speaker 2: wrongful convey Go to inisonsproject dot org to learn how
Speaker 2: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
Speaker 2: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wortis. The music in
Speaker 2: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 2: and on Facebook at brown Ful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 2: with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good
Speaker 2: Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one