WEBVTT - #563 Jason Flom with Fred Clay 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:03.840 This call is from a correction facility and it's subject 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:05.880 to monitoring and recording. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:09.280 Eleven. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:17.919 And it hasn't. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.000 Been easy a hundred years. That'sad man. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:21.800 I'm a kid. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.079 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.120 that was ah, that was real painful, man, No, because 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.559 my life was discarded as if you know, like I 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.360 was a piece of trash or something, you know, a 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.600 hundred years and I had dreams I wanted to do 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:39.199 things I wouldn't committing crimes. 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:39.760 You know. 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:42.159 I was a very good young man. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.159 That is what happens in so many cases. The cops 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.200 have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.960 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.440 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.040 marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so 0:00:58.160 --> 0:00:59.680 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.840 They open it to sell door and I'll walk down 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:08.000 STI and I actually walked down Stas to be outside. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.399 It felt very strange to be, like I said, to 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.040 be walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.440 it was a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream. 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:30.880 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.920 is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:39.600 an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am, I don't even 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:41.520 I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.320 introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.639 at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.320 for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, welcome to the show. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.440 Thank you very much, better on I appreciate it very much. 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.320 I always say I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.360 glad you're here. And I want to start off by 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.800 apologizing to you on behalf of the human race and 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:10.480 America and people and just there's nothing that can be said, 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.720 but let me just put that out there for starters 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.519 and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris Barrell is 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.920 an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:29.880 Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does work on well, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.440 he's worked on your case. You're telling your story and 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.160 as many other as well as many others. So Chris, welcome, 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:35.760 Glad you're here. 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:37.640 Thanks very much, glad to be here. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.919 Chris, how did you first come across this story? And 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.360 why did it impact you so much that you wanted 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.040 to do an article about it? 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:46.840 Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:51.639 Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.200 and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards, 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:58.880 because we do know there's a fair amount of media 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.200 attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.079 of time for a crime that they that they didn't 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.639 do and they're released and it's you know, a lot 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.920 of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:11.840 was there the day got out, as was a lot 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.360 of other media. But the question came up, well, what 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.160 is what is life really like? You know, once this 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.040 kind of once the applause fades, what is what is 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.840 what is a person's life really like? So initially Fred 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.639 was not that keen on me proffering this idea of 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.160 following him around at different points over the course of 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.840 about a year, but I met with him on a 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.800 couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and so 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.840 we just struck up this this intervals of trying to 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.880 meet up and I wanted to see him in different situations, 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:49.800 trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks, the 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.200 basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do you 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.120 find shelter, how do you? How do you feed yourself? 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.880 And so for the first few months he didn't he 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.400 didn't have a job. He had a little bit of 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.520 money from from a go Fundme site and he had 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.640 food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.160 which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.080 shift and they'd be telling them, well, we've only got 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.200 a couple hours work instead of a full shift. And 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.760 he'd walk home through the snow in the street because 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:19.800 people didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.640 of snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.760 sometime late winter, early spring that he got this job 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:34.599 precision grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.279 grateful to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.360 in most cities in America is really high, and the 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.839 most he could afford was basically a room and a basement. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.640 And he said at least once that that room kind 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.400 of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.000 was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.320 coming into it and that was the best that his 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:00.680 circumstance this can allow. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:05.680 So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.800 though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.920 told over seventy stories already. Uh and just and I've 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.760 been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.360 the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:25.159 I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.320 seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:33.520 child really just scared out of your mind faced with 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.120 this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.159 Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.039 hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time. 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.279 You were living in a foster home at that time, right, Yes. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.200 I was living a foster home. I was placed in 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.880 it by DYS. I have some juvenile cases and I 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.200 got convicted too. I got sentenced to like to DYS 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.840 and he sent me to Boys to Center and a 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.240 state that a little while month from there to program 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.719 State of Football six months, I believe, and they decided 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.520 that I need to be in a fosseter home. So 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.480 I was in a fossil home at that time. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.000 And you were not a big guy either. You were 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.000 like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.000 you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.560 were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario like 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.120 this is. No one's prepared for it. But let's go 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.080 back to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean, 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:33.880 how did this happen? 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:34.480 Was? 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.760 Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.560 a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.480 us a little background on that? Yeah? 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.039 Yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is. Fred 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.200 was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen, charged 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.680 with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.880 part of the story was that one of another cab 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.960 driver who saw three young Africa American men get into 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.720 a cab, said he was able to id one of 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.200 them another the second person he couldn't id, And the 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.320 police used the practice they used back then of hypnotizing 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.680 a witness in a case, believing that the brain functioned 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.280 a lot like a videotape, and that you could put 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.360 a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind to 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.880 a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain would 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.400 see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was one 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:32.520 of the pieces that led police to arrest and charge 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.400 Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him. 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:39.080 But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.640 identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time? 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:43.720 Did you know these people? 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.680 I was not in the scene. I was in the 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.080 Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.520 know how he became to identify me. I really can't 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:59.520 answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.320 the cab driver of the cab in the front page 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.480 of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.040 I guess one of his friends used to break that 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:15.520 cap and he thought he's the perpetrators get into the 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.960 cap the previous night, and I guess he just went 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:23.520 to the police station and tried to cooperate with the police. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.760 There was hypnosis involved. I think he was showing my 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.640 picture a few times, like four or five, six times, 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:37.360 and when they hypnotized them, instead of him actually placing it, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.439 you know, actually viewing the people the perpetrator at the 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.960 scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot. Sort of 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.520 my face from the mug shot was in his mind. 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.720 Right, So yeah, I mean what we know that hypnosis 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.600 is going back to what Chris was saying, hypnosis will 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:54.800 make you see things you haven't seen before, but they 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.719 will may not have any collection to reality. Right, that's 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:58.160 the problem. 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.560 I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.720 to do with when someone shows you a photograph five 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.480 or six times, their face is somewhat imprinted in your mind. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.480 Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:12.960 about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.960 same image repeated over and over again, it's going to 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.320 play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:19.200 to go to that place. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.160 And was this That's why I think what happened? He 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.160 just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something. 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.440 I really can't I really can't answer that question how 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:28.720 he picked me out? But he did. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:30.920 Was there was this robbery at night? 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.400 Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four o'clock. 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.200 In the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right, and 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.200 this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we know 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.240 how I mean, and we also know that the brain 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.520 when you witness a violent crime, I wouldn't. Identification is 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.200 notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts into 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:50.160 the studio now and attacks one of us, and then 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.440 they put us in a lineup, there's almost just as 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.959 much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.880 correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.400 way that we will, which is a crazy and people 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.160 listening going, that's not true, but it has been proven 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:07.800 over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy, 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.800 so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.480 you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.040 when you're either the victim or when your witness to 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.280 a violent crime, as this one was, we know that 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:27.400 your senses are altered because of the fact that you're 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.760 just scared out of your brain literally. So and this 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.000 was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.600 Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.720 So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:43.360 had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.760 males get into this cab. Then the cab goes to 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.880 or allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.959 south of the city in Roslindale. And then there was 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.640 another witness that also had pretty serious question marks around 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.960 how the police interacted with this witness, and this other 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:05.240 witness claimed that he did actually see the shooting out 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.960 of a window of an apartment in the housing project. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.679 What Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.880 trying to re engage with this case and prove that 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:21.000 Fred didn't do it, was see that this witness was 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:25.240 I think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know, 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:30.080 cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:35.320 family that if they testified against Fred that they would 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.840 be moved out of this project housing project which was 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.319 mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white. 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.360 And again this witness was white. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:50.520 Wow, So you talk about coercion or you know, and 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.880 isn't not a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:57.439 that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.000 watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.240 You go to prison for riving witness in America, right, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.439 But the government is able to offer the best bribe 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.320 that there is. I mean, in this case, it was 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.520 a new home, right, It's almost like a game show. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.839 Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.360 you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:17.880 threaten you, and they do that very often, will take 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.720 your kids away, will lock you up for some prior 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.439 thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.800 or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:28.880 it's amazing that the weapons that they have in there 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:30.720 are so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.040 what were you going to say? Fred? 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.920 Also, the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.960 to us in their projects. This witness, I sort of 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.320 I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.880 from time to time in the projects, so he was 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.480 familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.280 that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.640 it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.560 face and they see your your picture in the in 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:06.440 the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated, 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.679 they're picking out a familiar face. So just because he 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.240 was familiar with by face, he sort of just placed 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.840 me at the scene of crime based on the fact 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:16.760 that he was familiar with my face, not because he 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.040 saw me at the scene of the crime. 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.839 So we have a couple of factors here that are 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.360 very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:30.240 we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact, 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:35.520 and then it gets worse. So you were were you 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:37.760 at home when you were arrested? How did this all 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.679 go down? And how long did you have to wait 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.760 for trial? Who was your I assume you had a 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.199 public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:44.440 for us? 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.600 Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.840 got it. I was actually when I went. I was 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.599 on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.360 had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't. 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.080 She claims I ran away, but I never really ran away. 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.240 I just vanished from time to time and came back. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.439 But anyway, I showed up on November fifteen to her 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.079 house and I didn't know that, but she had previously 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.240 reported me for running. So when I showed up on 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.480 November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay that night. 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.480 But at the same time, she didn't want me to 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.000 do the next morning. I had to leave the next morning. 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.880 So the next morning came and she told me I 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.880 had to leave because she reported me running. She didn't 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.640 want the police at are out, so I left and 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.680 I was on probation, so I went to the probation 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.760 officer and sort of told her what was going on, 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.760 and based on that, they sent me back to another 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:52.359 facility that I was previously held at before, a juvenile facility, 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.640 and I was there for a few football a little 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.480 over a couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.240 Cozy Tutus came in one evening and they went up 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.080 to the main desk to talk to the counsel of 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.960 work there, and maybe about two minutes after that, they 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.680 called my name and I went to the desk and 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.320 they asked me my name. I told my name is 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.800 Frederick Claim. They told me they needed to speak with me, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.880 so they took me to like a little room off 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.840 to the side, and in that room they informed me 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.640 that DA was arrested me for murder. So I really 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.280 didn't know anything about the murder until it actually they 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.080 came there and arrest me for it, and my attorney 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.600 at the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro. 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:39.480 So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:40.280 about the murder. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.320 How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.480 assuming that there was either new years two years wait. Wow, 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.360 So that whole thing about it in the constitution. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.440 Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:53.600 until nineteen eighty one. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.040 Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.040 to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.120 often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.400 know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated, 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.200 but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.880 in that sense. So you're in jail for two years 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.400 of waiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.880 it's always I think for our listeners and even for 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:26.040 me an eye opener, to hear how these things go, 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.400 especially in a case as serious as this one where 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.280 you were facing life in prison. Tell us what you 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.760 can remember about the trial, for instance, did you think 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.840 if you can remember, and again, you were in prison 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.600 for so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.440 to prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.840 eight years, which means you were in prison for almost 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.520 two and a half times as long as you had 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.800 been alive, right, and your life experience as a sixteen 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:52.680 year old, Let's face it, the first three or four years, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.000 we're not even really sentient beings. We're kind of just 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.600 stumbling around, eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing, right, 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.560 and playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.560 a book and hug us or if we're lucky. So 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.480 you know, for you, your life experience was so brief 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.719 before you entered the system, and you had already been 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.960 in and out of the system. So here you are 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:18.800 at trial, and did you, if you can recall, did 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.600 you feel like when the jury went out that you 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.080 were going to be convicted or did you still have 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.639 hope that you the justice would be done. 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.120 I wasn't really sure there was a fifty fifty chance 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.439 that I was going to get convicted. I thought, well, 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.600 once I get understand and tell the truth and so 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.760 sort of present my case and present the evidence that 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.960 actually proved that I was innocent and have present my otheribi, 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.640 I thought I was I might have a chance of 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.760 being found not guilty. So I was I was hoping 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.040 that I was going to be found not guilty. But 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.120 at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys, 0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.440 you know, there was a possible chance that I could 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.679 get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.800 going to get found not guilty, but at the same time, 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.880 I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:13.280 I had a fifty to fifty chance. 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.679 And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:18.879 were they white or black? 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.760 Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white, 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.520 and one of them was black. But the one was 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.800 black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.560 But the two name was that yes, they was white. 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.400 And the reason I raised that question is because we 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:40.280 know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:47.639 cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.400 than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.679 of their own race. I think there's a lot of 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:55.239 reasons for that. We don't have to get into all 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.320 of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.399 right now, as I always say on this always a 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.399 potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.439 situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.240 was no evidence against you, so it was only the 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.560 witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification, 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.840 and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.680 against a black person, a Hispanic person testify against a 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.760 white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable. 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:27.360 And so your case is an important one to highlight 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.960 that particular factor, because again, the reason why I do 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:32.960 this show, Fred is because I want to help to 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.679 prevent these things from happening to other people in the future, 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:36.600 as I'm sure you do. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.320 I'm not sure if there was a well known fact 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.119 back in nineteen eighty one, the cross racial identification issue, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.040 but it's a well known fact. 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.359 Now, right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:50.720 the jury comes back and it had to be the 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.119 worst feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.920 life in prison, which is again a bizarre Yeah. 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.200 A natural life, not just in life, a natural life. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.600 Life sort of means like a second degree life, but 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.840 natural means a first to be life sentence with a 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.639 chance no parole, which means like a you go to 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:14.359 spend invest in your life in prison, you go and 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:15.040 die in prison. 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.200 And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean, 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.040 what kind of a system do we have where we 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.359 can sent in someone who was really a child and 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:29.280 adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison. 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:30.480 Yeah, I mean it. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:35.480 It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later, 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.399 much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.680 some of that. So it did, at a very much 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:45.480 later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.560 talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.960 just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.720 at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:03.520 a lot of really serious questions, but then to make 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:08.240 that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.760 life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking. 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:18.199 Yeah, just think about it, a judge telling you, a 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.399 sixteen year old kid, that you are incapable of changing, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:23.919 so therefore you need to spend the rest of your 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:28.560 life in adults prison. You know, and often think about that. 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.399 And they took me out of a bad situation and 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.960 they put me in even a worse situation because a 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.040 lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.560 about a lot of that stuff and how I was 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.040 going to survive that, whether I was going to end 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:48.959 up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.720