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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 2: Eleven.

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Speaker 1: And it hasn't.

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Speaker 2: Been easy a hundred years. That'sad man.

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Speaker 1: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 3: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know

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Speaker 3: that was ah, that was real painful, man, No, because

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Speaker 3: my life was discarded as if you know, like I

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Speaker 3: was a piece of trash or something, you know, a

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Speaker 3: hundred years and I had dreams I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: things I wouldn't committing crimes.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I was a very good young man.

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Speaker 4: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 4: have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 4: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 4: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 4: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 4: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: They open it to sell door and I'll walk down

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Speaker 1: STI and I actually walked down Stas to be outside.

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Speaker 1: It felt very strange to be, like I said, to

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Speaker 1: be walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This

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Speaker 2: is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have

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Speaker 2: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am, I don't even

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Speaker 2: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to

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Speaker 2: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned

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Speaker 2: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years

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Speaker 2: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, better on I appreciate it very much.

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Speaker 2: I always say I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm

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Speaker 2: glad you're here. And I want to start off by

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Speaker 2: apologizing to you on behalf of the human race and

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Speaker 2: America and people and just there's nothing that can be said,

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Speaker 2: but let me just put that out there for starters

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Speaker 2: and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris Barrell is

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Speaker 2: an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for

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Speaker 2: Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does work on well,

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Speaker 2: he's worked on your case. You're telling your story and

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Speaker 2: as many other as well as many others. So Chris, welcome,

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Speaker 2: Glad you're here.

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Speaker 5: Thanks very much, glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: Chris, how did you first come across this story? And

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Speaker 2: why did it impact you so much that you wanted

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Speaker 2: to do an article about it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for

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Speaker 5: Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases

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Speaker 5: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,

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Speaker 5: because we do know there's a fair amount of media

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Speaker 5: attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount

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Speaker 5: of time for a crime that they that they didn't

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Speaker 5: do and they're released and it's you know, a lot

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Speaker 5: of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I

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Speaker 5: was there the day got out, as was a lot

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Speaker 5: of other media. But the question came up, well, what

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Speaker 5: is what is life really like? You know, once this

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Speaker 5: kind of once the applause fades, what is what is

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Speaker 5: what is a person's life really like? So initially Fred

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Speaker 5: was not that keen on me proffering this idea of

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Speaker 5: following him around at different points over the course of

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Speaker 5: about a year, but I met with him on a

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Speaker 5: couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and so

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Speaker 5: we just struck up this this intervals of trying to

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Speaker 5: meet up and I wanted to see him in different situations,

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Speaker 5: trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks, the

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Speaker 5: basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do you

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Speaker 5: find shelter, how do you? How do you feed yourself?

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Speaker 5: And so for the first few months he didn't he

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Speaker 5: didn't have a job. He had a little bit of

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Speaker 5: money from from a go Fundme site and he had

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Speaker 5: food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,

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Speaker 5: which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a

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Speaker 5: shift and they'd be telling them, well, we've only got

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Speaker 5: a couple hours work instead of a full shift. And

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Speaker 5: he'd walk home through the snow in the street because

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Speaker 5: people didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot

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Speaker 5: of snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 5: sometime late winter, early spring that he got this job

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Speaker 5: precision grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really

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Speaker 5: grateful to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent

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Speaker 5: in most cities in America is really high, and the

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Speaker 5: most he could afford was basically a room and a basement.

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Speaker 5: And he said at least once that that room kind

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Speaker 5: of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had

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Speaker 5: was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light

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Speaker 5: coming into it and that was the best that his

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Speaker 5: circumstance this can allow.

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Speaker 2: So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even

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Speaker 2: though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've

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Speaker 2: told over seventy stories already. Uh and just and I've

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Speaker 2: been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm

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Speaker 2: the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought

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Speaker 2: I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know,

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Speaker 2: seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old

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Speaker 2: child really just scared out of your mind faced with

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Speaker 2: this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of

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Speaker 2: Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just

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Speaker 2: hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time.

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Speaker 2: You were living in a foster home at that time, right, Yes.

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Speaker 1: I was living a foster home. I was placed in

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Speaker 1: it by DYS. I have some juvenile cases and I

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Speaker 1: got convicted too. I got sentenced to like to DYS

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Speaker 1: and he sent me to Boys to Center and a

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Speaker 1: state that a little while month from there to program

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Speaker 1: State of Football six months, I believe, and they decided

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Speaker 1: that I need to be in a fosseter home. So

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Speaker 1: I was in a fossil home at that time.

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Speaker 2: And you were not a big guy either. You were

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Speaker 2: like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened,

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Speaker 2: you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You

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Speaker 2: were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario like

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Speaker 2: this is. No one's prepared for it. But let's go

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Speaker 2: back to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean,

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Speaker 2: how did this happen?

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Speaker 1: Was?

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Speaker 2: Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of

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Speaker 2: a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give

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Speaker 2: us a little background on that? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is. Fred

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Speaker 5: was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen, charged

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Speaker 5: with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy

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Speaker 5: part of the story was that one of another cab

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Speaker 5: driver who saw three young Africa American men get into

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Speaker 5: a cab, said he was able to id one of

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Speaker 5: them another the second person he couldn't id, And the

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Speaker 5: police used the practice they used back then of hypnotizing

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Speaker 5: a witness in a case, believing that the brain functioned

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Speaker 5: a lot like a videotape, and that you could put

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Speaker 5: a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind to

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Speaker 5: a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain would

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Speaker 5: see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was one

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Speaker 5: of the pieces that led police to arrest and charge

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Speaker 5: Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.

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Speaker 2: But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to

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Speaker 2: identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time?

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Speaker 2: Did you know these people?

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Speaker 1: I was not in the scene. I was in the

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Speaker 1: Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't

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Speaker 1: know how he became to identify me. I really can't

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Speaker 1: answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of

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Speaker 1: the cab driver of the cab in the front page

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Speaker 1: of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number.

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Speaker 1: I guess one of his friends used to break that

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Speaker 1: cap and he thought he's the perpetrators get into the

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Speaker 1: cap the previous night, and I guess he just went

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Speaker 1: to the police station and tried to cooperate with the police.

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Speaker 1: There was hypnosis involved. I think he was showing my

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Speaker 1: picture a few times, like four or five, six times,

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Speaker 1: and when they hypnotized them, instead of him actually placing it,

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Speaker 1: you know, actually viewing the people the perpetrator at the

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Speaker 1: scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot. Sort of

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Speaker 1: my face from the mug shot was in his mind.

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Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, I mean what we know that hypnosis

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Speaker 2: is going back to what Chris was saying, hypnosis will

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Speaker 2: make you see things you haven't seen before, but they

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Speaker 2: will may not have any collection to reality. Right, that's

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Speaker 2: the problem.

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Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything

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Speaker 1: to do with when someone shows you a photograph five

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Speaker 1: or six times, their face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.

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Speaker 2: Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know

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Speaker 2: about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the

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Speaker 2: same image repeated over and over again, it's going to

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Speaker 2: play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start

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Speaker 2: to go to that place.

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Speaker 1: And was this That's why I think what happened? He

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Speaker 1: just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something.

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Speaker 1: I really can't I really can't answer that question how

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Speaker 1: he picked me out? But he did.

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Speaker 2: Was there was this robbery at night?

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four o'clock.

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Speaker 2: In the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right, and

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Speaker 2: this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we know

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Speaker 2: how I mean, and we also know that the brain

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Speaker 2: when you witness a violent crime, I wouldn't. Identification is

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Speaker 2: notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts into

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Speaker 2: the studio now and attacks one of us, and then

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Speaker 2: they put us in a lineup, there's almost just as

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Speaker 2: much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the

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Speaker 2: correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same

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Speaker 2: way that we will, which is a crazy and people

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Speaker 2: listening going, that's not true, but it has been proven

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Speaker 2: over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when

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Speaker 2: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: when you're either the victim or when your witness to

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Speaker 2: a violent crime, as this one was, we know that

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Speaker 2: your senses are altered because of the fact that you're

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Speaker 2: just scared out of your brain literally. So and this

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Speaker 2: was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this.

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Speaker 5: So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police,

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Speaker 5: had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American

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Speaker 5: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes to

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Speaker 5: or allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit

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Speaker 5: south of the city in Roslindale. And then there was

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Speaker 5: another witness that also had pretty serious question marks around

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Speaker 5: how the police interacted with this witness, and this other

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Speaker 5: witness claimed that he did actually see the shooting out

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Speaker 5: of a window of an apartment in the housing project.

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Speaker 5: What Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and

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Speaker 5: trying to re engage with this case and prove that

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Speaker 5: Fred didn't do it, was see that this witness was

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Speaker 5: I think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know,

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Speaker 5: cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his

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Speaker 5: family that if they testified against Fred that they would

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Speaker 5: be moved out of this project housing project which was

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Speaker 5: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.

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Speaker 5: And again this witness was white.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So you talk about coercion or you know, and

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Speaker 2: isn't not a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is

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Speaker 2: that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who

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Speaker 2: watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness.

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Speaker 2: You go to prison for riving witness in America, right,

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Speaker 2: But the government is able to offer the best bribe

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Speaker 2: that there is. I mean, in this case, it was

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Speaker 2: a new home, right, It's almost like a game show.

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Speaker 2: Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want

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Speaker 2: you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can

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Speaker 2: threaten you, and they do that very often, will take

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Speaker 2: your kids away, will lock you up for some prior

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Speaker 2: thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges

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Speaker 2: or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's

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Speaker 2: it's amazing that the weapons that they have in there

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Speaker 2: are so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But

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Speaker 2: what were you going to say? Fred?

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Speaker 1: Also, the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened

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Speaker 1: to us in their projects. This witness, I sort of

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Speaker 1: I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other

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Speaker 1: from time to time in the projects, so he was

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Speaker 1: familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really

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Speaker 1: that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your

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Speaker 1: face and they see your your picture in the in

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Speaker 1: the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated,

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Speaker 1: they're picking out a familiar face. So just because he

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Speaker 1: was familiar with by face, he sort of just placed

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Speaker 1: me at the scene of crime based on the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was familiar with my face, not because he

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Speaker 1: saw me at the scene of the crime.

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Speaker 2: So we have a couple of factors here that are

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Speaker 2: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,

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Speaker 2: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,

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Speaker 2: and then it gets worse. So you were were you

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Speaker 2: at home when you were arrested? How did this all

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Speaker 2: go down? And how long did you have to wait

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Speaker 2: for trial? Who was your I assume you had a

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Speaker 2: public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks

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Speaker 2: for us?

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Speaker 1: Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I

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Speaker 1: got it. I was actually when I went. I was

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Speaker 1: on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I

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Speaker 1: had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't.

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Speaker 1: She claims I ran away, but I never really ran away.

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Speaker 1: I just vanished from time to time and came back.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, I showed up on November fifteen to her

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Speaker 1: house and I didn't know that, but she had previously

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Speaker 1: reported me for running. So when I showed up on

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Speaker 1: November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay that night.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, she didn't want me to

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Speaker 1: do the next morning. I had to leave the next morning.

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Speaker 1: So the next morning came and she told me I

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Speaker 1: had to leave because she reported me running. She didn't

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Speaker 1: want the police at are out, so I left and

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Speaker 1: I was on probation, so I went to the probation

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Speaker 1: officer and sort of told her what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and based on that, they sent me back to another

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Speaker 1: facility that I was previously held at before, a juvenile facility,

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Speaker 1: and I was there for a few football a little

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Speaker 1: over a couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing

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Speaker 1: Cozy Tutus came in one evening and they went up

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Speaker 1: to the main desk to talk to the counsel of

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Speaker 1: work there, and maybe about two minutes after that, they

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Speaker 1: called my name and I went to the desk and

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Speaker 1: they asked me my name. I told my name is

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Speaker 1: Frederick Claim. They told me they needed to speak with me,

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Speaker 1: so they took me to like a little room off

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Speaker 1: to the side, and in that room they informed me

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Speaker 1: that DA was arrested me for murder. So I really

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Speaker 1: didn't know anything about the murder until it actually they

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Speaker 1: came there and arrest me for it, and my attorney

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Speaker 1: at the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed

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Speaker 1: about the murder.

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Speaker 2: How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming that there was either new years two years wait. Wow,

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Speaker 2: So that whole thing about it in the constitution.

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Speaker 1: Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial

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Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 2: Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right

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Speaker 2: to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very

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Speaker 2: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,

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Speaker 2: but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical

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Speaker 2: in that sense. So you're in jail for two years

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Speaker 2: of waiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because

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Speaker 2: it's always I think for our listeners and even for

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Speaker 2: me an eye opener, to hear how these things go,

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Speaker 2: especially in a case as serious as this one where

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Speaker 2: you were facing life in prison. Tell us what you

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Speaker 2: can remember about the trial, for instance, did you think

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Speaker 2: if you can remember, and again, you were in prison

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Speaker 2: for so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went

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Speaker 2: to prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty

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Speaker 2: eight years, which means you were in prison for almost

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Speaker 2: two and a half times as long as you had

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Speaker 2: been alive, right, and your life experience as a sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old, Let's face it, the first three or four years,

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Speaker 2: we're not even really sentient beings. We're kind of just

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Speaker 2: stumbling around, eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing, right,

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Speaker 2: and playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us

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Speaker 2: a book and hug us or if we're lucky. So

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Speaker 2: you know, for you, your life experience was so brief

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Speaker 2: before you entered the system, and you had already been

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Speaker 2: in and out of the system. So here you are

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Speaker 2: at trial, and did you, if you can recall, did

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Speaker 2: you feel like when the jury went out that you

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Speaker 2: were going to be convicted or did you still have

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Speaker 2: hope that you the justice would be done.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't really sure there was a fifty fifty chance

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Speaker 1: that I was going to get convicted. I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: once I get understand and tell the truth and so

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Speaker 1: sort of present my case and present the evidence that

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Speaker 1: actually proved that I was innocent and have present my otheribi,

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Speaker 1: I thought I was I might have a chance of

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Speaker 1: being found not guilty. So I was I was hoping

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Speaker 1: that I was going to be found not guilty. But

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Speaker 1: at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was a possible chance that I could

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Speaker 1: get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was

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Speaker 1: going to get found not guilty, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So

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Speaker 1: I had a fifty to fifty chance.

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Speaker 2: And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you,

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Speaker 2: were they white or black?

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Speaker 1: Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white,

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Speaker 1: and one of them was black. But the one was

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Speaker 1: black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much.

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Speaker 1: But the two name was that yes, they was white.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I raised that question is because we

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Speaker 2: know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that

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Speaker 2: cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so

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Speaker 2: than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone

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Speaker 2: of their own race. I think there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: reasons for that. We don't have to get into all

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Speaker 2: of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening

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Speaker 2: right now, as I always say on this always a

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Speaker 2: potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a

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Speaker 2: situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there

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Speaker 2: was no evidence against you, so it was only the

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Speaker 2: witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying

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Speaker 2: against a black person, a Hispanic person testify against a

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Speaker 2: white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.

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Speaker 2: And so your case is an important one to highlight

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Speaker 2: that particular factor, because again, the reason why I do

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Speaker 2: this show, Fred is because I want to help to

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Speaker 2: prevent these things from happening to other people in the future,

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Speaker 2: as I'm sure you do.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there was a well known fact

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one, the cross racial identification issue,

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Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact.

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Speaker 2: Now, right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So

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Speaker 2: the jury comes back and it had to be the

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Speaker 2: worst feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to

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Speaker 2: life in prison, which is again a bizarre Yeah.

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Speaker 1: A natural life, not just in life, a natural life.

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Speaker 1: Life sort of means like a second degree life, but

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Speaker 1: natural means a first to be life sentence with a

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Speaker 1: chance no parole, which means like a you go to

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Speaker 1: spend invest in your life in prison, you go and

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Speaker 1: die in prison.

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Speaker 2: And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 2: what kind of a system do we have where we

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Speaker 2: can sent in someone who was really a child and

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Speaker 2: adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it.

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Speaker 5: It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later,

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Speaker 5: much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo

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Speaker 5: some of that. So it did, at a very much

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Speaker 5: later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're

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Speaker 5: talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of

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Speaker 5: just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone

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Speaker 5: at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises

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Speaker 5: a lot of really serious questions, but then to make

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Speaker 5: that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to

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Speaker 5: life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just think about it, a judge telling you, a

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old kid, that you are incapable of changing,

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Speaker 1: so therefore you need to spend the rest of your

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Speaker 1: life in adults prison. You know, and often think about that.

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Speaker 1: And they took me out of a bad situation and

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Speaker 1: they put me in even a worse situation because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about a lot of that stuff and how I was

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Speaker 1: going to survive that, whether I was going to end

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Speaker 1: up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have

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Speaker 1: someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we

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Speaker 1: think that you are incapable of changing.

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Speaker 2: And when you went to prison, this was you know,

404
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Speaker 2: this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a

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Speaker 2: very violent place and you were in amongst people who

406
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Speaker 2: were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here

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Speaker 2: you are like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did

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Speaker 2: you manage to survive as a young not a particularly

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Speaker 2: big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy

410
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Speaker 2: in that situation. How did you manage to survive?

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Speaker 1: Well, personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A

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Speaker 1: lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence

413
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Speaker 1: sort of took a liking to me, and they just

414
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Speaker 1: sort of just gave me, just told me the way

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Speaker 1: of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something cheap,

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Speaker 1: it to yourself. Don't talk to corrections officers. Try to

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Speaker 1: stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to use

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Speaker 1: that time to benefit me as a person, to change

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Speaker 1: things about myself that I did not like, to sort

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Speaker 1: of use that time to work on me as a

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Speaker 1: human being. And they also let me. They also told

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Speaker 1: me I had to figure out how to do the

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Speaker 1: time and not let the time do me. And it

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Speaker 1: took me quite a while to understand that. So, like

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Speaker 1: what you mean, due to time and not let the

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Speaker 1: time do me. So basically what they was telling me,

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Speaker 1: just what I was telling you, is just try to

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Speaker 1: use just bad experience and focus on the things that

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Speaker 1: I do do not like about myself and the things

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Speaker 1: that I can change to make me feel good about

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Speaker 1: myself and to make other people see me in a

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Speaker 1: way that I want them to see me. So I

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Speaker 1: it was a little bit of that, And it was

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Speaker 1: just a little bit of me just figuring out who

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Speaker 1: I can trust and who I can't trust, and also

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Speaker 1: not to put myself in a certain position to have

437
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know,

438
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with

439
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: them about my situation and just be aware of their motives,

440
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: you know.

441
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: And then there was a sort of a hero emerged.

442
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: If you could call it that. From this situation, a

443
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 2: guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out

444
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 2: of this right and introduced you to a very unlikely

445
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: character who became almost like, I don't use too strong

446
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And

447
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: can you talk about that?

448
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: Oh much?

449
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So

450
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: can you talk about that a little bit?

451
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: Well. Roosevelt Picket was as an old gentleman I think

452
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: he was like in the sixties, and I knew him

453
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: at that time. I knew of for about twelve years,

454
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit

455
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: and he had he was he was walking the King

456
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: he had an accident. He used to do cariding works

457
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, so he fell off the roof

458
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: and he used to walk around with a game. So

459
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: h Anyway, I used to work and if I was

460
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: in Bay State Prison at this time, and I was

461
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: working downstairs on the first floor in the day room,

462
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: and he lived on the first floor. And he was

463
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: down there cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I

464
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: was I was down there doing my job and everything,

465
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: and he was. So we started talking about visits and

466
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And he asked me, do I have

467
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: anybody that you know, family members and friends that visit me?

468
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 1: And I told him, uh, not really, I had my

469
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: great aunt. She visited me like every two years, three

470
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: years a year, whenever she can find time to do it.

471
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: So then he asked me if I was if I

472
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: wanted somebody to visit me, like from a church and

473
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and I said, sure, why not. I

474
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: grew up in the opportunity to meet somebody from church

475
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: and just have a friend to come visit me. So

476
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: he put me in touch with prison ministry. I think

477
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: it was called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to fill

478
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: out some forms and stuff like that, and I filled

479
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: out the forms and he sent it in and I'm

480
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: not quite sure how long after that then I met

481
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and I

482
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: was back in I think that was like in ninety seven,

483
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, And once he came to

484
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: Bay State to visit me. We so our friendship developed

485
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: and got stronger and stronger, and the more he visited me,

486
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: the more I started talking about my case and me

487
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: as a person and things I like and dislike and

488
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: I just take this interest. And so he helped me

489
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: somewhat get out of prison.

490
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if

491
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: anybody would like to get involved in this, you know,

492
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends

493
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 2: with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people

494
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying

495
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: to connect people as best I can. And in fact,

496
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of

497
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If

498
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: I was writing a movie about your story, I would

499
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 2: name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up

500
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: some sort of a sort of a very square looking

501
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: white guy, right, sort of comes in out of nowhere.

502
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: What was your reaction when you met this guy?

503
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind,

504
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere,

505
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I

506
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought,

507
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: this is the kind of person that I need in

508
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: my life to sort of help me take me out

509
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't

510
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: really that social with in prison, so he sort of

511
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.

512
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: So I thought he was a very nice person something

513
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: that is, someone that I needed to have in my

514
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, and

515
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: in many other ways after that to be ezact.

516
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: And how important was that relationship to you?

517
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: It was very important. I mean, how many people do

518
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: you know will bring their their young, small children in

519
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: to see a person in prison that's non family. So

520
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: he became uh, I know I used this phrase before.

521
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became

522
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: family to me, and and he's still family right now.

523
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: So his friendship and him being part of my life

524
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: was very very important then and it's very important now.

525
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: He's still live my life right now.

526
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case,

527
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble

528
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing

529
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life

530
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all that.

531
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment.

532
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just

533
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.

534
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: I mean, can you share some insight into this guy,

535
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.

536
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of

537
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 5: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to

538
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 5: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with

539
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 5: Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm

540
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 5: guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as

541
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 5: to how Fred talks and that people are kind of

542
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 5: drawn to the way he talks and understands things about

543
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 5: this really awful experience he had he had to go through.

544
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 5: And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his

545
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 5: two kids. I met one of his kids who's now,

546
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 5: you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with

547
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 5: them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I

548
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 5: asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Doran

549
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 5: and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people

550
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 5: and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently

551
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 5: during the year, like every few months, they would drive

552
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 5: down and and go through. It's not easy to get

553
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 5: into a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and

554
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 5: get frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear

555
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 5: exactly the right clothing or they turn you away, and

556
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 5: you know they again they brought their little kids in

557
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 5: to kind of hang out friend and sit there and

558
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 5: play cards, and just the whole dynamic and relationship that

559
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 5: was related to me really kind of me away.

560
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and

561
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: now all of a sudden he has sort of an

562
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long

563
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: drive and they would come every couple of months. And

564
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: there's one more quote, and I want to get back

565
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: to the story because again this really touched me and

566
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going

567
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd

568
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: all pile back in the car when our visit was

569
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: over and it was just dead silence in the car.

570
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh, this is

571
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: from Jackie Dibble. Let me say we start again, and

572
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: missus Dibble. Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back

573
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: in the car when our visit was over and it

574
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: was just dead silence in the car. Because that's where

575
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: it really hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under

576
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: the barbed wire. We get to go home, and he doesn't,

577
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: and it was just nobody would say anything on the

578
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: way home and end quote. And I've had that feeling

579
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: so many times now visiting people in prison and who

580
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: I know are innocent, and then when I leave and

581
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: that door slams behind and you can't take them with you.

582
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: It's a horrible feeling. It's it's a sick feeling, actually,

583
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: And Chris is nodding his head because he knows, and

584
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: you know, it does drive me and I think all

585
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: of us every day to try to do more to

586
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: help people like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once

587
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: you've experienced that. And I brought four people with me

588
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: up to Sing Sing this weekend where we met many

589
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: of the men who are stuck there, some of whom

590
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: are innocent, some are not. But you know, I would

591
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: say that ninety percent of the people that we met

592
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: there don't belong there. You know, they've served their time,

593
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: they made a mistake. I'm of the Brian Stevenson school.

594
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: He's one of my heroes, and you know, he said,

595
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: I believe everyone is better than the worst thing they've

596
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: ever done. You know, I think in our system we

597
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: overincarcerate to such an extreme degree, we over punish. The

598
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: institutions that we have that are called correctional institutions are

599
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: not by and large, and all of it needs to change.

600
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: And that's why it's so important that you're here, Fred

601
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: to tell your story. So I really appreciate that, and

602
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: you too, Chris, So Fred tell us how this situation changed.

603
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: Because you were sentenced to life in prison, you had

604
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: no hope to get out. You found this inner strength,

605
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: this grace, this courage that always mystifies me and amazes

606
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: me and makes me, you know, draws me two people

607
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: like yourself because I get so much out of just

608
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: talking to you and spending time. And so how did

609
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: you ultimately? I mean, we know how you survived because

610
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: you explain that, But how did you get out? Because

611
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: you're here now and that's a fantastic thing, and I know,

612
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: and I want to talk about the struggle of being

613
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: out as Well's what I call the second punishment. But

614
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: how did that? Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd

615
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: you get out?

616
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: Well? I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa

617
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: Cavanaugh from the CPCs innocent program. She's my attorney, she

618
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: was my attorney on my pill We drafted and critique

619
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that.

620
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late

621
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between

622
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug

623
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I

624
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that

625
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also

626
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, I will say, late December twenty thirteen,

627
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and

628
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to

629
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: see the parole board. So once that law changed, that

630
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: law allowed me to see the parole board. So at

631
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: that particular time, I was not I was still thinking

632
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: about and preparing for my Rule thirty emotion, but I

633
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended

634
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I

635
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: should say, and the results of that I ended up

636
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: getting presented my case. The parole board, stating that I

637
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for

638
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue,

639
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested

640
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff,

641
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: but I did not take responsibility for the current case

642
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: that I was doing time for with much the murder.

643
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: And I let them know that if I did do it,

644
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt.

645
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. So I did not admit

646
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same time,

647
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: I was letting them know that prison so you I

648
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: mean by be being in prison, I was not the

649
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: same person I was when I first went to prison.

650
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.

651
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: So I just explained to them how different I was

652
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically

653
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: I got up. I was going I was set to

654
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get

655
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelfth, but August twelfth was on

656
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was

657
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite

658
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is

659
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: generated a week before I was scheduled to get released

660
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: our parole.

661
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things

662
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the

663
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,

664
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things

665
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite

666
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 2: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was

667
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite

668
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: were the most respected people in America at that time,

669
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: one of the most respected journalists of all time. So

670
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 2: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh

671
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: air after spending a longer time than most of the

672
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right,

673
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 2: I mean two people in the studio here who haven't

674
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: been alive that long thirty eight years.

675
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys,

676
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and

677
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: their family, and Victim Izario he was there. I hugged him.

678
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: And once I did that, I started talking to the

679
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: media sa. That was the first thing I did start

680
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff.

681
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: But to answer your question what it was like, it

682
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: was felt very strange to be walking without outside of prison,

683
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: without no shackles on my feet. That felt very strange.

684
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: Every time I left prison, no matter to go to

685
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: the hospital or whatever, to court, whatever, they always had

686
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: shackles on your feet. And once they actually said that

687
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: you're free to go, and they put me in the

688
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: in the in the like the whole itself for a

689
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: little while, for like an hour to finalize everything. So

690
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: once everything was finalized and they opened it, uh the

691
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I actually walked

692
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: downstairs to be outside. It felt very strange to be,

693
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: like I said, to be walking without thrown shackles on

694
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again,

695
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: it wasn't a dream, but it was kind of overwhelming.

696
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: It was I was happy, I was somewhat cautious, and

697
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: I was like in shocked to some degree. So it

698
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: was it was a combination of all those things.

699
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,

700
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a

701
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea

702
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: that you know, everyone sees on the on the news,

703
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: the photographs or the video of someone like yourself coming

704
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: out and there's all this joy and you have if

705
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: if you're fortunate enough like you were, to have some

706
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: friends and family around and there's news media and there's

707
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: cameras and maybe the sun is shining. But there's another

708
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: side to that too, right, I mean, you come out

709
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: and you get nothing like most of the people. And

710
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: this is crazy because for twenty five years I've been

711
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: doing this work and anyone I talk to that's not awhere.

712
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: You know, when I meet somebody new and I'm talking

713
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 2: about decision because I talk about it everywhere, the first

714
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: thing they want to know is does the exonery you

715
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: get paid? Like, just tell me they get money, And

716
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: I have to tell them that in most cases no,

717
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: and even in the cases when they do, it takes

718
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: an unconscionably long time, years and years. This is something

719
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: that the Interests Project has been deeply involved with. Recently,

720
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: we just passed the compensation statute in Kansas, so it's

721
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: a thirty first state actually have compensation statues. There's still

722
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: nineteen states that have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred,

723
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: coming out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone

724
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: in as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying

725
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: to rebuild your life. I want to focus for a

726
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: minute on those challenges, which I don't think get the

727
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: type of attention that they deserve. And I think we

728
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: as a society owe you and every man and woman

729
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: that has been through this type of ordeal, we owe

730
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: you more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe

731
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: you a debt. And I think that as soon as

732
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: you get out that should start to be getting repaid.

733
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 2: But that's not the way it works, and your case

734
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: is a very strong example of that. So can you

735
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: talk about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any

736
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 2: money yet, right well.

737
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: My attorneys working on that right now. So it's still

738
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: to be remained, to be still being rocked on.

739
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,959
Speaker 2: And how how long have you been out?

740
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 1: Not all the year now, so it's been August eighth,

741
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: so it's been.

742
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 5: Good over year, fifteen to sixteen months.

743
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: Fifteen months much like that?

744
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit.

745
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 5: I mean, this was this was this was the focus

746
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 5: of my reporting for the last year was to kind

747
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 5: of answer that question, what's life like when you get

748
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 5: out of prison? His his his, Fred's murder conviction was vacated.

749
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 5: And you know, my editor has suggested, why do we

750
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 5: see what life's like in the first thirty days? And

751
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 5: that turned into what are we?

752
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: Uh?

753
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 5: Why don't I check in with Fred from time to

754
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 5: time over the course of a year, and and Fred

755
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 5: can kind of fill in a lot of this stuff,

756
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,959
Speaker 5: but that a lot of it was, you know, what

757
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 5: what do you do to survive? You need you need housing,

758
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 5: you need shelter, and you need some income to provide

759
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 5: that shelter and food. Just the base bear basics of survival,

760
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 5: and that was what you know, Fred and I would

761
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 5: kind of meet up and he would very graciously let

762
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 5: me tag along with him as he talked to people

763
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 5: about filling out job applications and trying to work on

764
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 5: a resume, and watched him move from one apartment to

765
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 5: another apartment, and I think, you know, maybe Fred, you

766
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 5: talk a little bit about what those experiences like.

767
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been

768
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: kind of challenging when you've been in prison for I long. Obviously,

769
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed to the

770
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: point where it's all new to me. I all often

771
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again and

772
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: I have to learn everything all over again, including technology.

773
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: So and even how do you fill out job applications now?

774
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: It's different compared to when I was back in the

775
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to

776
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything,

777
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning

778
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know

779
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that

780
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating

781
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at

782
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 1: the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually

783
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: I get there. I just need to be patient with myself.

784
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: But trying to survive out here when you've been in

785
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 1: prison that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job.

786
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.

787
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 2: Oh what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now.

788
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: Fred, I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.

789
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: So that's right by Boston, right.

790
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it's by Boston. But I wouldn't

791
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 1: call it right by. It's some distances, but it is by.

792
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 5: Boston, about an hour north of Boston.

793
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: Okay.

794
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 1: Well wow. And when you don't drive, that's another thing.

795
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: I really I haven't really started driving yet. And when

796
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: you when you don't know how to drive, you're very limited.

797
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: So I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and

798
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: low and that's been kind of challenging. The public transportation

799
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: here is not that great. It's shuts down at seven

800
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: o'clock in the evening, and that's been an issue that

801
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: I still struggle with today. So I need to learn

802
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: how to drive. In order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,

803
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: just to get around, I need to learn how to drive.

804
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been

805
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the

806
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action,

807
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out when the right time is.

808
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: Maybe there is no right timing. I just need to

809
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: just jump into it and do it. But all that's

810
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging to me to figure out what's important,

811
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a

812
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: big issue.

813
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: And I can tell just from the way you know

814
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: you are and the way that you've dealt with this

815
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre

816
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: reason I know actually would have crumbled under the weight

817
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going to

818
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: be successful, but I think all of us just need

819
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: a little boost every once in a while. So I'm

820
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 2: happy to say that that's something I'm gonna be able

821
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: to to provide. So I do want to I want

822
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: to ask you also, what if you can think of it,

823
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: what's been your happiest moment since you got out. It's

824
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at a picture right now

825
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: of you with the with the dibbles, with Dorin and Jackie.

826
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: It's really sort of a funny picture. I mean, you

827
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 2: have this giant smile on your face and the glasses

828
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: on and they, you know, they're obviously smiling too, but

829
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: I mean they're really white, these people are. You know,

830
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph because it's

831
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: just such an unusual, uh you know, combination of different backgrounds.

832
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of humanity in that right, And

833
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 2: there's a lot of beauty in it. There's a lot

834
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the

835
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been

836
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 2: as much of a shock as anything else, what's been

837
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since

838
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: you got out.

839
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: Well, a few visionly my mother's grave. That was very happy.

840
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: But I would say right now, the skydiving.

841
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: Who you went skydiving?

842
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: I went skydiving twice.

843
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: Wow.

844
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: And I would say that. I said that because some

845
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: guys that I was in prison with that end up

846
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: passing away in prison often. You know, we often talked

847
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH

848
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to

849
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: ourselves that they looked a lot of fun. You know,

850
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: it looked like fun, and I looked like the people

851
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: was enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was

852
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: sort of like dedicating that moment to them because they

853
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: sort of helped me change who I was as a person.

854
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: They sort of helped me get back into my case

855
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: and make me stay focused on that. So when I

856
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: skydived the first time, it was just to honor them

857
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: and for me to thank them and to show respect

858
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: for them for what they did for me, because I

859
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: at that time and I still do now, I consider

860
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment

861
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: the first time and the second time too because the

862
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: second time when I went skydiving, I went with a

863
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: lot of exorninary people, people that was in my somewhat

864
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: in my situation. We all had our individual cases that

865
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: end up that we end up in prison for, but

866
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: we all was innocent, and so it was kind of

867
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: special to be with them that way. I felt, you know,

868
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: that I was surrounded by people who actually knew what

869
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 1: I was going through, and they didn't have no problem

870
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: sharing what they was going through, what they went through

871
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: in prison, and what they're dealing with now out here

872
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: that you be shortage to share our experience and share

873
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: their knowledge and help you each other. So that was

874
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: kind of special. And also when I jump out the

875
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: plane a second time, it's sort of reminded me of life,

876
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: Like when you jump out the plane, there is no

877
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 1: turning back. You came to say, well, I changed my mind,

878
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: I want to go back. Once you jump out the plane,

879
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: you and the elements, and so you got to face

880
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: whatever there whatever fear you have, whatever there is, you

881
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: got to face that. And it sort of reminds me

882
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: about my life right now. Whatever it is in life

883
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: that I'm uncomfortable with I have fear about, I have

884
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: to try to face it and try to do the

885
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: best I can. So to answer your question, the skydivingd

886
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: was the most important thing to me.

887
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very

888
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: just amazing to think about. But I will say this,

889
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: if you can jump out of a plane, you can

890
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a

891
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: deal right here in front of however many one hundred

892
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 2: thousand people listening to this show, if you'll take your

893
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So

894
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 2: that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure

895
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: you can drive it. But if you can do it,

896
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: we'll get you a car, all right. And then then

897
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: then me and Chris are coming and we're going to

898
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: take a ride with you. So because we're you jump

899
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 2: out of a plane, I'll get on the car with

900
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 2: you behind a wheel, no.

901
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: Problem, okay, okay, okay.

902
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: All right, we got a deal. We got a deal.

903
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: We have one hundred thousand witnesses, So there you go.

904
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 2: Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that.

905
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: And I am going to put you.

906
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: To say something. It'll take one witnesses to get someone convicted,

907
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: never mind one hundred thousand.

908
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition

909
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 2: here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of

910
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show,

911
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: which is that at the end of the show, which

912
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: is now, I always, of course thank both of you,

913
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your

914
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 2: story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking

915
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: you now. And then also at the end of the show,

916
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 2: the featured part is where I get to stop talking

917
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 2: and do all the listening. And how this works is

918
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,479
Speaker 2: I just turned the microphone over to you for any

919
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 2: closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure,

920
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 2: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,

921
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 2: anything any last words.

922
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 5: Well as always like, it's really fascinating for me to

923
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 5: listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a

924
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 5: reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him

925
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,959
Speaker 5: of work in a place and have editors that saw

926
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 5: how important that was to do it. And it's again,

927
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 5: I think Fred just went through something really awful and

928
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 5: has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And

929
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 5: it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support

930
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 5: to him that he did because again he's able to

931
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 5: kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense

932
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 5: of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back

933
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 5: to what it was like talking with him over these

934
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 5: last many months. So happy to be here again.

935
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 2: Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction,

936
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: and now over to you Fred for your last words

937
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:46,919
Speaker 2: and thoughts.

938
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak

939
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I want to thank christ Barell

940
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but

941
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: to come to me in the beginning when I first

942
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow

943
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 1: me and talk about the person's life after the cameras

944
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: go away. I'm sort of glad that he did not,

945
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: because it made me stay true to who I was

946
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: and it made me more focused about my situation and

947
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: at the same time it brought me out of my

948
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: shell so to speak, too, And I want to say

949
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: that people sometimes ask me about why am I not

950
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: bitter about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely

951
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: upset about what happened to me. But at the same time,

952
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was

953
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me

954
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I am a right

955
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I liked the person

956
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 1: I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and

957
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the

958
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of

959
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: made me realize that too. So I thank him for

960
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I

961
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: won't thank my attorneys, Lisa Cavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and

962
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: my attorney who passed away, Emmanuel Howard. I want to

963
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: thank all three them for helping me get to where

964
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 1: I'm at today, and my supporters too. The Debil's Fred smiles.

965
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: These so many people, so many people help me. I

966
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: won't thank everybody for that.

967
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I just took me a minute to collect myself.

968
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: But well, once again, you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction

969
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: today's episode featuring investigative journalists Chris Barrell and Fred Play,

970
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 2: exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder

971
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on

972
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 2: the show. And I look forward to to taking a

973
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud,

974
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: I hope with YouTube guys, and maybe we'll go and

975
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: pick up the dibbles along the way. So and that's

976
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 2: a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks again,

977
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 2: and we'll keep the conversation moving.

978
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.

979
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 6: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

980
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,280
Speaker 6: Wherever you get your podcasts.

981
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 2: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

982
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 2: Enesis Project and I really hope you'll join me in

983
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 2: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

984
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 2: wrongful convey Go to inisonsproject dot org to learn how

985
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 2: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

986
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wortis. The music in

987
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,760
Speaker 2: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

988
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

989
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 2: and on Facebook at brown Ful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction

990
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 2: with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good

991
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one