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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 2: I never If you think that one person has all

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Speaker 2: the answers, don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults,

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Speaker 2: Extreme believe and of course manipulation firm two medical unprofessionals

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Speaker 2: who have actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today we're going to pretend I'm doctor Blanc and I've

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Speaker 2: never liked anything more. What a fantasy come true for

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Speaker 2: you Today? Our guest is J. Wesley Boyd, who we

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Speaker 2: will just call Wes. He is a psychiatrist. He's also

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Speaker 2: been a professor, and he is now the director of

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Speaker 2: education at the Harbor Medical School Center for Bioethics. We're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about something that's a little bit off

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Speaker 2: the beaten cult path. Today, but bear with us because

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Speaker 2: it sounds innocuous, but it is worth knowing about. It

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Speaker 2: is physician health programs or PHPs. We are going to

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Speaker 2: discuss these under the radar programs that most states have,

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Speaker 2: which are supposed to be a place where doctors who

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Speaker 2: are struggling with substance use disorder or mental illness can

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Speaker 2: go to recover. But how a shocking number of doctors

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Speaker 2: who do not have a substance use disorder a coerced

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Speaker 2: into for profit impatient treatment that rips them away from

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Speaker 2: their lives and cost them tens of thousands of dollars

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Speaker 2: of their own money, and if they don't comply, they'll

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Speaker 2: very likely lose their medical licenses.

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Speaker 1: This was all absolutely shocking for me to learn, even

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Speaker 1: though I've been around medical professionals my whole life. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: really worth the listen. We'll talk about the benevolent origin

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Speaker 1: of these programs, the profit margins that corrupted so many

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Speaker 1: of them over time, examples of folks who experienced this

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Speaker 1: coercion at the expense of their mental health and career,

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Speaker 1: and how no one believes people who are victims of them,

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Speaker 1: which is why it's important for people like Wes who

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Speaker 1: worked for one as a psychiatrist to speak out, and

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Speaker 1: as always, we will discuss the exceptions because of course

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Speaker 1: there are people who have been helped by them too.

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Speaker 2: As always, of course, so before we get into this

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Speaker 2: very specific topic today, but we all agree to's still interesting,

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Speaker 2: please fascinating and important. Please tell me your coldiest thing

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Speaker 2: of this week.

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Speaker 5: Okay, sure.

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Speaker 1: So this week, this Instagram model girl has been pictured

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Speaker 1: with Leonardo DiCaprio one point five million followers type of

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Speaker 1: wellness guru is kind of doing the thing we've been

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Speaker 1: seeing more often. Her name is Katuskia Torres. I'm probably

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Speaker 1: not saying that right. She's Brazilian. She has been sentenced

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Speaker 1: to jail this week on charges of this wellness business

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Speaker 1: coaching thing actually being a backdoor entry to a very

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Speaker 1: very cultique group, and twenty women have accused her of

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Speaker 1: keeping them as.

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Speaker 4: Basically slaves for sex.

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Speaker 1: Work labor and if they try to leave, she'd tell

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Speaker 1: them that she was a witch that would put a

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Speaker 1: curse on them. So just really really dark. But she's

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Speaker 1: going to jail for eight years, so that's nice.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So she was like making them stay with her, like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would almost be like you're not a Real

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Speaker 1: Housewives fan, but probably no one who listens to this

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Speaker 1: is but the real house lives of New York, Sonya

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Speaker 1: would always have like an unpaid in turn that everybody

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Speaker 1: would feel sorry for. And I'm not comparing this cult

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Speaker 1: leader to Sonya, who's the best.

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Speaker 5: I love Sonya, but something kind of akin to that.

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Speaker 1: And then that person would get to the place and

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Speaker 1: it would be like, you're now a stripper, and I

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Speaker 1: take all of the money that you make, and you

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Speaker 1: do this and you do that, like just you know,

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Speaker 1: I own you now.

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Speaker 2: This article says one of these unpaid women found that

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Speaker 2: Torres could not do basic things without her, like taking

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Speaker 2: a shower, because she did not want to be alone.

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Speaker 2: She had to be by Torres's side and was only

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Speaker 2: allowed to sleep for a few hours at a time

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Speaker 2: on a couch covered in cat urine. Ugh, yes, she

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Speaker 2: was paid. Wow. Okay, Well, glad something's happening there.

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Speaker 1: I know, because we do see these cult wellness influencer

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Speaker 1: things popping up here and there, but they're not prosecuted

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Speaker 1: that much. So I'm glad that somebody is actually going

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Speaker 1: to prison for it.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious to learn more. Wikipedia says it followed an

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Speaker 2: FBI investigation into the disappearances of two women who came

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Speaker 2: from Brazil and lived with her. So yeah, well I'm sure,

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Speaker 2: well we should do a whole episode on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a documentary I guess coming out or did

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Speaker 1: come out on the BBC, So gonna have to watch that.

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Speaker 6: All right.

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Speaker 2: Well, Maya's not not totally unrelated. I mean, okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to make an accusation of anything like that,

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Speaker 2: but I found out this week that someone who maybe

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Speaker 2: you know, if you don't know him, you know, someone

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Speaker 2: who knows him, his former fiance during the pandemic, decided

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Speaker 2: that she was like a psychic energy healer.

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Speaker 4: I know exactly who you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, have you ever talked about her? And I, you know,

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Speaker 2: we sort of all went to her website and went

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Speaker 2: to see what the deal is, and it was very alarming.

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Speaker 2: And at first I was just like, Oh, that's some

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Speaker 2: fringe thing. That's going to be just you know, someone

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Speaker 2: who sort of decided randomly to say this. But no,

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Speaker 2: there are famous people on her website vouching for her

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Speaker 2: and saying that, you know, she changed their lives and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and it's all extremely culty. She also uses the word

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Speaker 2: science where it absolutely is not warranted stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: And it all happened while they were together, and it

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Speaker 2: was the pandemic, and she started just kind of going

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Speaker 2: down a rabbit hole apparently, and now is telling people

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Speaker 2: she can fix every single thing that's wrong in their lives, which,

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Speaker 2: as we know, isn't good.

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Speaker 4: Is she still married to your friend?

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Speaker 2: No, they they broke up because of that. So I

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Speaker 2: guess she was literally telling people to not get medical

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Speaker 2: treatment because she could heal them. Oh. Like it was

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Speaker 2: that level of like, no, nothing is wrong because I

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Speaker 2: can energetically handle all of it.

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Speaker 1: And as somebody who loves energy stuff that is not good.

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Speaker 1: Nobody should be telling you not to have medical perspectives,

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Speaker 1: which is such a great callback to this episode. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not to have medical perspectives and that they can fix

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Speaker 1: everything because they can't.

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Speaker 4: That's not true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much every solution to every problem was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to energetically heal that and that, right, you know, that's.

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Speaker 6: It for a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, And we did look up her rates and it

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Speaker 2: is a lot of money.

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Speaker 5: God.

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Speaker 2: So also another person that we have both met, I

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Speaker 2: noticed just started become like really following following a self

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Speaker 2: proclaimed healer in a way that that alarms me a

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Speaker 2: little bit, but you know, this is what happens.

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Speaker 1: We live in Hollywood, Lola, We're bound to see a

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Speaker 1: lot of things.

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Speaker 2: But it is someone who has already experienced this kind

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Speaker 2: of thing before, and it seems maybe they're seeking it

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Speaker 2: out again.

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Speaker 4: Makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 1: Most cult members join another cult, so we got to

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Speaker 1: be on our toes.

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Speaker 2: We gotta be on our toes.

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Speaker 1: We got a birdle Ballerinas burst people's bubble.

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Speaker 5: That energy work is not gonna work.

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Speaker 2: Anyway. Also, obviously there was an assassination attempt on Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump this week, but like, I don't even notice stated

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Speaker 2: about that. It's so crazy. There's so much conspiracy theory

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Speaker 2: stuff going around on every every political sphere there is,

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Speaker 2: and we don't really know the motives yet. We don't

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Speaker 2: really know that much yet, so I don't have much

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Speaker 2: to say about that. But it was absolutely insane, that's all.

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Speaker 1: Well, one thing we do know from cults as if

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Speaker 1: the leader has an attempted assassination and it doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: the members double down.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, oh yeah, interesting to be about to see

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Speaker 2: a lot of that. Thanks, Let's see a lot of that,

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Speaker 2: just think. So all right, let's talk to West, shall we.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk to Wes.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Jay, Wesley Boyd to trust me. We are going

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Speaker 2: to call you Wes. So great to have you today.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: This is going to be a confusing episode in terms

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Speaker 2: of the topic at first, but once we kind of

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Speaker 2: get into it, I think people will understand why a

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Speaker 2: cult podcast is talking about physician health programs before we

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Speaker 2: get into what this actually means and what it is

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Speaker 2: and why it's a problem. Can you just tell us

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Speaker 2: about you and your background and how you came to

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Speaker 2: be talking about this.

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Speaker 3: Well. I studied philosophy in college and went to graduate

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Speaker 3: school to be a philosophy professor, believe it or not.

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Speaker 3: And it was only because I picked a bad fitting

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Speaker 3: philosophy program that I decided to stop after the master's

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Speaker 3: degree and switch into medicine for the purposes of becoming

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Speaker 3: a psychiatrist. I'd been interested in psychiatry really since high school,

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Speaker 3: largely around questions of normality, fitting in why did I

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Speaker 3: feel like such an odd ball and yet I felt okay? Myself,

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Speaker 3: my own skin, but I didn't seem to fit in

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Speaker 3: very well in high school. So I'd always been interested

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Speaker 3: in the questions that people deal with in psychiatry, and

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Speaker 3: so started doing all the pre med stuff I hadn't

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Speaker 3: done in college for the purposes of going to medical school.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, I met two professors in the

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Speaker 3: religion department who were doing the kind of work I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do, even though I'm not religious in any

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Speaker 3: informal kind of way. So I ended up getting a

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Speaker 3: PhD with them and wrote a dissertation on niachs end

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Speaker 3: Stayevski and while going to medical school, and then as

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Speaker 3: soon as I finished med school, I went from North

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Speaker 3: Carolina Chapel Hill, where I'd done graduate school and med

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Speaker 3: school up to Cambridge to Cambridge Hospital which is now

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Speaker 3: called Cambridge Health Alliance and did psychiatry residency. And it

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Speaker 3: was in residency where I really fell in love with

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Speaker 3: working with folks with substance use disorders. I was drawn

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Speaker 3: to psychiatry because psychiatric patients have such a tough path

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Speaker 3: going forward and there's so much stigma still to this

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Speaker 3: day around issues with respect to psychiatry. And then within psychiatry,

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Speaker 3: it's the folks with substance use disorders who are particularly

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Speaker 3: I think stigmatized, and so I was really drawn to

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Speaker 3: working with them in that population, and because of that

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Speaker 3: I ended up. When I left residency, I worked in

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Speaker 3: a substance use clinic out in western Massachusetts, and the

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Speaker 3: first medical I will get to the question I promised.

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Speaker 3: The very first medical director and the very first clinic

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Speaker 3: I worked at was an associate director in the state's

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Speaker 3: Physician Health Program in Massachusetts, and he really liked my

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Speaker 3: work as a psychiatrist, with the work I did, in

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Speaker 3: particular with folks with substance use disorders, and so he

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Speaker 3: started sending a lot of doctors to me in my

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Speaker 3: private practice who either had substance use disorders or were

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Speaker 3: suspected of having substance use disorders. In that role as

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Speaker 3: a private psychiatrist, I was just seeing people as their psychiatrists,

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Speaker 3: but many of them had monitoring agreements with the state

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Speaker 3: Physician Health Program in Massachusetts. So that's really how I

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Speaker 3: got into this whole area of working with either doctors

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Speaker 3: or medical students who are suspected of having substance use

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Speaker 3: disorders or other behavioral disorders which are potentially impairing them

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Speaker 3: in the workplace. And then because of that work, when

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Speaker 3: I moved back to the Boston area, I actually became

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Speaker 3: an associate director in the state's physician health program in

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Speaker 3: Massachusetts and I did that for six years, and then

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Speaker 3: since then, since I left, I've been writing about the

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Speaker 3: kinds of issues that doctors face once they go into

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Speaker 3: those programs, either for academic audiences, lay audiences, or both.

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Speaker 2: So, because most of our audience probably will have no

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Speaker 2: idea what this is, physician health programs are called PHPs,

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Speaker 2: and I want to kind of start out by maybe

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Speaker 2: we could walk listeners through what would happen if you

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Speaker 2: are a practicing physician and someone suspects or even you

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Speaker 2: decide to tell someone that you maybe have a mental

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Speaker 2: health issue that you're dealing with that has the potential

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Speaker 2: to impact your work. Can you go through the process

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Speaker 2: of what happens if somebody reports you? Or how does

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Speaker 2: it work? Do you report yourself?

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Speaker 3: It can happen either way. There are many folks who

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Speaker 3: self report because they have heard that there are these

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Speaker 3: position health programs that can help usians and maintain anonymity

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Speaker 3: and not necessarily report them to the boards. Of medicine,

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Speaker 3: and so physicians at times will reach out themselves, but

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Speaker 3: probably more frequently they're referred. Physicians are referred into these

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Speaker 3: programs either by boards of medicine who get when that

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Speaker 3: there may be some substance use disorder or there was

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Speaker 3: a dui in the past that they revealed when they

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Speaker 3: were applying for licensure, or the chief of your medical

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Speaker 3: clinic or chief medical officer in your hospital again gets

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Speaker 3: when that maybe there's an issue. Maybe some people are

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Speaker 3: smelling report smelling alcohol in your breath, or you're slurring

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Speaker 3: your words oddly, or you're not showing up on time.

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Speaker 3: You know, if the behaviors are odd enough, then folks

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Speaker 3: who run clinics and hospitals can then refer doctors. The

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Speaker 3: way that people get referred into these programs is either

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Speaker 3: as you said, self report or also possibly being referred

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Speaker 3: by chiefs of staff and individuals like that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's say I'm a doctor. Doctor Blanc has

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Speaker 2: a nice ring to it.

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Speaker 3: Anyone who is doctor b is okay.

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Speaker 2: In my book doctor Blanc. My colleague thinks that maybe

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Speaker 2: I've been too tired on the job.

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Speaker 5: Doctor Elizabeth, the nark.

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Speaker 2: Me the narc the nark next to me, Ye reported

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Speaker 2: me for seeming really like sleepier out of it on

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Speaker 2: the job. What happens next if you get well?

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Speaker 3: I want to just go back to one thing and

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Speaker 3: I'll answer that question when you said a lot of

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Speaker 3: your listeners will have no idea about what state position

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Speaker 3: health programs are. Yeah, the reality is most doctors don't

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Speaker 3: even know what state position health programs are. Most doctors

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Speaker 3: don't even know these programs exist until they get referred

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Speaker 3: to one of the programs. And it's only once you've

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Speaker 3: been referred and you actually get into the weeds of

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Speaker 3: it and you start looking around that Not infrequently people

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Speaker 3: will say, wait a second, there's a lot of coercion

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Speaker 3: going on here, and even if I wanted to get

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Speaker 3: out at this point, I don't see a way out

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Speaker 3: other than to do what they're telling me. So back

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Speaker 3: to your question. If there are concerns generally in the

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Speaker 3: workplace like you described right, and your chief medical officer

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Speaker 3: at your hospital gets end of it, or your department

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Speaker 3: chief gets end of it, quite often they're going to say,

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Speaker 3: we want to refer you to the state position health

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Speaker 3: program and you're like, whoa wait, wait, a second, I

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Speaker 3: just you know, I'm depressed, or you know I have

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Speaker 3: been sleeping enough, or maybe I have been having a

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Speaker 3: few too many drinks after work or whatever, but I

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Speaker 3: don't need to go there. They're like, no, no, this

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Speaker 3: is confidential. Don't worry, and this is a benevolent entity

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Speaker 3: meant to help you, right, And so quite frequently with

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Speaker 3: those reassurances, doctors will sort of walk into the state

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Speaker 3: position health program that they've been referred to. And as

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Speaker 3: of right now, I think forty seven out of fifty

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Speaker 3: states have these programs, so it's the overwhelming or I'm

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Speaker 3: not the exception that states have them. So you'll sort

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Speaker 3: of walk in there blithely thinking this is an entity

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Speaker 3: whose sole purpose is to help you get through whatever

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Speaker 3: difficulties you're having. And they might put a piece of

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Speaker 3: paper in front of you and say sign this, and

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Speaker 3: you're like, what am I signing? And it's just, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's an agreement to come on in the door. And

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Speaker 3: what you often don't know if you go ahead and

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Speaker 3: sign that is in addition to saying you know, we're

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Speaker 3: going to reach out to your boss who referred to

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Speaker 3: you and talk to other folks, there's generally a clause

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Speaker 3: in there that will also say, if you don't do

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Speaker 3: what we tell you, we're going to report you to

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Speaker 3: the Board of Medicine. Right, And so even though you

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Speaker 3: walk in there thinking this is a confidential resource, you

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Speaker 3: can ultimately sign away your right to confidentiality without even

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Speaker 3: quite realizing that you've done that.

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Speaker 1: So it's a little bit like mandated reporting. What are

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Speaker 1: these clinics, like, where are they?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, in each state, it's obviously different. In Massachusetts

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Speaker 3: the program is headquartered just outside of Boston, Colorado. Not

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Speaker 3: surprisingly it's in Denver.

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Speaker 1: It's just a separate entity that is like this is

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Speaker 1: where doctors go.

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Speaker 3: Every state has its own program, so there's nothing necessarily

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Speaker 3: uniform about them across the country. So some, for example,

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Speaker 3: are parts of the state. They're subsidiaries of the Board

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Speaker 3: of Medicine. Others, like in Massachusetts, are subsidiaries of the

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Speaker 3: Medical Society. So Board of Medicine is the entity that

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Speaker 3: regulates licensure. The medical societies are the groups of doctors

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Speaker 3: that are like the AMA, the American Medical Association state divisions. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so some PHPs are part of the Medical Society, some

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Speaker 3: are part of the boards of medicine, and then some

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Speaker 3: are just freestanding for profit entities.

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Speaker 2: And when we say for profit entities, I just want

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Speaker 2: to flag that, like in general rehab in the US,

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Speaker 2: there's an explosion of for profit rehabs that are incredibly exploitative,

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Speaker 2: are charging exorbitant amounts of money, and are not using

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Speaker 2: evidence based treatment at all. So already like as a

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Speaker 2: baseline for profit rehabs, and also just many rehabs in general,

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Speaker 2: because there's not like standardized care, are rife with exploitation

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Speaker 2: and just not good practices. But now we're talking about

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Speaker 2: mandated rehab basically that doctors are sent to for whatever

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Speaker 2: course it makes sense. And this is the part that

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Speaker 2: I want to really emphasize before we get too much

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Speaker 2: deeper into it. Of course, if a doctor's drinking on

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Speaker 2: the job or they're doing drugs, like they need to

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Speaker 2: get some kind of care for their substance use disorder,

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Speaker 2: because they should never be treating patients if they're impaired

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Speaker 2: in any way. However, from what I understand, anyone who

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Speaker 2: has anything that they're dealing with, anxiety, depression, postpartum are

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Speaker 2: all referred to this same pro that specifically was designed

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Speaker 2: from the beginning to treat substance use disorders. So people

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Speaker 2: who just have anything wrong, I would be sent there.

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Speaker 2: As someone who had a really bad anxiety period, I

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Speaker 2: would be sent there if someone found out or if

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Speaker 2: I were to report myself. But I've never done I've

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Speaker 2: literally never had a sip of alcohol. So all of

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Speaker 2: these people with all of these wide ranging things that

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Speaker 2: they need help with are being sent to one kind

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Speaker 2: of program, which is already rife to begin with because

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Speaker 2: so few facilities are doing like evidence based care.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, almost everything you said is spot on. The programs.

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Speaker 3: Physician health programs definitely began for the sole purpose of

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Speaker 3: treating substance use disorders, predominantly alcohol. Right. And the reason

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Speaker 3: the programs are viewed as benevolent entities who are out

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Speaker 3: to do good for doctors is because their origins actually

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Speaker 3: were exactly that. Fifty sixty years ago. It was a bunch,

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Speaker 3: it was our bragtag bunch of X addicts themselves reaching

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Speaker 3: out to other doctors who had substance use issues, saying,

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Speaker 3: come on, dude, let's do it, let's get.

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Speaker 6: Sober, right, which is great, Yeah, yes.

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Speaker 3: Really very noble origins. What has happened, though, is that

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Speaker 3: physician health programs have evolved from those very humble and

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Speaker 3: I would say noble origins to become bureaucratic entities that

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Speaker 3: are now very tightly connected to state boards of medicine.

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Speaker 3: They want to remain in their good graces, right, So

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Speaker 3: as a physician health program you want to do everything

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Speaker 3: you can to make sure your Board of Medicine likes

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Speaker 3: you and trusts you, which means sharing information too much

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Speaker 3: rather than too little with the boards. But also, and

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Speaker 3: this gets into what you were talking about, with for

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Speaker 3: profit entities, the state physician health programs, even if some

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Speaker 3: of them themselves are not for profit because they're part

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Speaker 3: of the Board of Medicine or they're you know, state

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Speaker 3: Medical Society affiliate or something like that, they have arrangements

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Speaker 3: with evaluation and treatment centers all around the country that

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Speaker 3: end up on their preferred provider list that are all

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Speaker 3: almost entirely all for profit, and where those evaluation and

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Speaker 3: treatment programs around the country entirely and totally depend on

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Speaker 3: referrals from state physician health programs to remain financially viable.

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Speaker 2: So doctor Blanc shows up because this bitch here for me, her, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I sign a paper that says confidentiality. Actually nah, And

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Speaker 2: then basically they are incentivized because I am their source

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Speaker 2: of income. They are incentivized to find something wrong with

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Speaker 2: me that they can treat there even if they are

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Speaker 2: a substance use disorder treatment facility. And what I have

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Speaker 2: is OCD. So what happens next at this stage to

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Speaker 2: doctor Boole, Well.

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Speaker 3: So this is the only time I'm ever going to

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Speaker 3: defend one of these evaluation treatments. But even though state

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Speaker 3: physician health programs really were born out of substance use disorders,

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Speaker 3: they generally have evolved to treating mental health conditions, generally

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Speaker 3: for at least referring people to treatment. And in one instance,

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Speaker 3: for example, we saw a fellow with wildly out of

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Speaker 3: control diabetes, no substance use disorder, no independent mental health condition,

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Speaker 3: but he had blood sugars fluctuating between forty and six hundred,

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Speaker 3: and he was acting completely bizarre, falling asleep at weird times,

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Speaker 3: people saw him crash his car one time. He would

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Speaker 3: be erratic and yell at people, and everyone's like, he's

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Speaker 3: obviously on drugs. It took us like a year to

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Speaker 3: figure out he had diabetes out of control. So there

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00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 3: are all kinds of reasons why people might end up

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Speaker 3: getting referred. But but your basic point is the programs

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Speaker 3: are highly incentivized to both see people as having mental

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Speaker 3: health conditions or substance use disorders as opposed to not,

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Speaker 3: and then also referring to treatment. So the story I've

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Speaker 3: told a number of times is there's a woman who

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Speaker 3: was using marijuana tincture three times a month around her

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Speaker 3: mensies in a state where marijuana was fully legal only

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Speaker 3: after work, no issues in the workplace whatsoever. And she's

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Speaker 3: working part time for a hospital and they say, we

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Speaker 3: like your work, we would like you to come work

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Speaker 3: with us full time. Okay, fine, she said, okay, And

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Speaker 3: they say, oh, you'll have to do an employee physically.

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Speaker 3: She's like, okay, it has a drug test, okay, well

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Speaker 3: just so you know. And then so she self reveals

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Speaker 3: what I just told you about her THHD tincture use.

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Speaker 3: They said, hey, no problem, it's no big deal. Indeed,

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Speaker 3: she tests positive for marijuana or cannabis. They talked to

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Speaker 3: the hospital lawyer. The hospital lawyer says, just you know.

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Speaker 3: The hospital lawyer didn't know what they were saying, but

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Speaker 3: here's what they said. Just go get cleared by the

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Speaker 3: state Physician Health program. So she walks in the door,

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Speaker 3: and this is you know, she's three years out of training.

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Speaker 3: She's a first immigrant, a first generation American, from a

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00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: fan with a from a family with no means right,

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Speaker 3: and she walks in the state physician health program. They say,

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Speaker 3: you need to go out of state for a four

438
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: day evaluation at a cost of ten grand because because

439
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: you tested positive. So she goes to that. They then

440
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,959
Speaker 3: do a hair sample, which gives a ninety day window

441
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 3: of use, and she stopped the second she turned positive.

442
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: She's done. And she was barely using anything in the

443
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: first place, so it's not surprising at her hair sample,

444
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 3: which gives a ninety day window of use, was negative.

445
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 3: The program she went to diagnosed her, and this is

446
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 3: where it becomes for profit rehab center. They diagnosed her

447
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 3: with quote severe marijuana dependents and said, if you stay

448
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: for sixty days, we will fix you. But right now

449
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: you're not fit to practice medicine, but in sixty days

450
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: you'll be fit. Wow.

451
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: For some reason, when you first started chatting about this,

452
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: I assumed that this was like a free resource.

453
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 5: Nope.

454
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: No, I was still kind of like it's a little

455
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: vaca for hard working doctors. No, it's very expensive and

456
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: you have to go correct.

457
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: Yes, and yes, so that the state physician health programs themselves,

458
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: some charge user fees and some don't of the doctors,

459
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 3: but every single entity where they're referring folks to for

460
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: either evaluations or extended stays for treatment, those are all

461
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: very expensive. And even though according to the Americans with

462
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 3: Disabilities Act, referring in like if my hospital says I

463
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 3: have to go for an evaluation, they're supposed to pay

464
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: for the evaluation according to the ADA, in fact, they

465
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 3: never do. In my experience, they're not necessarily required to

466
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: pay for extended stays of treatment, which can cost anywhere

467
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 3: from sixty grand to one hundred grand. But this is

468
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 3: a serious money making enterprise, and so even the nonprofit

469
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: part of it, assuming you go to a state physician

470
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: health program that itself doesn't charge fees, everywhere you get referred,

471
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 3: they're going to be making money off you.

472
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: I read an article that you gave an interview for

473
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: with also a man named doctor Hammond. Is that you

474
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: say it? Sure, doctor Haman, Okay, it's one of You've

475
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: done so many articles, one of them I believe it

476
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: was an article called Doctor's Fear, controversial program made to

477
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: help them. I believe it was from that one. There's

478
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: a doctor named doctor Hammond who contacted his php a

479
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 2: sleep disorder. He was unable to sleep, could not get

480
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: to sleep, and thought that this was the best path

481
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: for him to get some help. During his interview, he

482
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 2: answered honestly that he shares wine with his wife a

483
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 2: few times a week. So they then made him fly

484
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: to a treatment center where he was diagnosed with something

485
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: called provisional alcohol disorder, which is a made up term.

486
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: It does not exist. When you google that term, four

487
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: results come up and they're all about him. And he

488
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: was told he needed mandatory rehab for having wine with

489
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 2: his wife a few times a week. This was a

490
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 2: man with a sleep disorder. From what I understand, these programs,

491
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: some of them are charging multiple thousands of dollars for

492
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 2: every day, let alone for thirty days, let alone if

493
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: they tell you that you need to stay for ninety days.

494
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 2: So what happens if you decide not to go because

495
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: you don't need rehab.

496
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 3: That's a great question, and I'll come right back to it,

497
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 3: but I want to give so in my defense, with

498
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 3: doctor Hammond. Once you started telling me this story, I'm like, oh, yeah,

499
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: I remember that. But I but I get contacted by

500
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 3: doctors literally at this point twice a week. Wow, somewhere

501
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: in the country. And this has been happening for a decade.

502
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 3: But I'll give you another example. A woman whose position,

503
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: female physician, self reports for depression to her own PHP

504
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: because she heard the PHPs are helpful. She walks in

505
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 3: and they say how much alcohol do you drink? And

506
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: she said, I'm not here for substances, I'm here for depression.

507
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 3: And they said, do you want to answer the question

508
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: or do you have something to hide?

509
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

510
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: Then she said, I have maybe a drink four to

511
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: five times a week. How does that drink make you feel?

512
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: It relaxes me. Relaxation is one of the possible criteria

513
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: for substance use disorder. You need to we think you

514
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: need to get treatment for alcohol use disorder, so that

515
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: you know that in terms of sort of the power

516
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: grab of like overdiagnosing and overinterpreting everything in the worst

517
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: possible light. It's just it's the norm, not the exception.

518
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: So you said that there are treatment programs for non

519
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: substance use disorders. There are treatments for like you know,

520
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: I mentioned OCD, so you could in theory get referred

521
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: to an actual mental health program. But it seems like

522
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: if you disclose virtually anything about engaging with any average

523
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: amount of alcohol use or weed or whatever, or if

524
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: I said I like doing mushrooms sometimes like that could

525
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: be taken exaggerated and like sort of expanded into a

526
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: substance use disorder that does not exist.

527
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that you said it very well.

528
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: I think the reason for that is probably a little

529
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 3: easier to mandate treatment for a substance use disorder than

530
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: for an anxiety disorder that has not impaired you in

531
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: the workplace, because you're getting whatever help you need for

532
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: your anxiety disorder right and you're functioning perfectly fine in

533
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 3: the workplace. But if you told me that you use mushrooms,

534
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: for example, which as far as I know, are illegal,

535
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: and either you know forty eight, forty nine or fifty states,

536
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: then right away I can say, look, you're using an

537
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 3: illicit substance that's problematic in and of itself, even though

538
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: even though you might do it on the weekends, off hours,

539
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 3: you're not doing it prior to going to work, et cetera,

540
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: et cetera. And I don't have any moral issues with that,

541
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: but the boards of medicine would throw their head at you.

542
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: It's just so ridiculous because as somebody who does struggle

543
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: with addiction, it's not like you can go somewhere for

544
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: three months and it's curing. It's just so crazy that

545
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, it's wild.

546
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 3: Well, and so what they'll do is after you go

547
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: for the extended stay for whatever it is, you know,

548
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: thirty days, sixty days, ninety days, inevitably you're going to

549
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: come back to your state and the state physician health

550
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: program is going to ask you to sign a monitoring

551
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: agreement or anywhere from one to five years, depending. I

552
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 3: haven't heard any that went longer than five years. That

553
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: will include things like random drug screens, so you'll get

554
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: called randomly, you know, Friday this week and Wednesday next week,

555
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: and you've got to figure out how to take thirty

556
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 3: minutes out of your work schedule, make it to the

557
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: drug testing site, get tested, and then go back to work.

558
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: And they usually would mandate therapy and other things like that.

559
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 3: Once you get into the monitoring agreement, the fees are

560
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: pretty consistent, meaning if you're in one of those programs

561
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: that charges you some money at least, then it'll be

562
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 3: usually manageable. But you're paying for your own therapy, you're

563
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: paying for your own drug testing. And if you ever

564
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: have a positive drug test, and I've seen this more

565
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: than a few times, even if it doesn't indicate relapse,

566
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: you're going to get reported to the Board of Medicine.

567
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: In point, person who is a doctor who ends up

568
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: self reporting for alcohol use disorder had a very serious

569
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: alcohol problem, had gotten themselves into a number of situations

570
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: outside of work where it's only by miracles that the

571
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: person never got hurt. I'm not going to give any specifics,

572
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: but the person was an alcoholic like up down sideways,

573
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: no other drugs, no ifs, hands. But two years into

574
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 3: the monitoring agreement, because this is someone I was working with,

575
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 3: this person who's actively practicing medicine, and it's unknown to

576
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: the Board of Medicine because they came in on their own.

577
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 3: They did everything we said, They're staying clean and sober.

578
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: They've got workplace monitors who would call me if they

579
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: saw some issue in the workplace. The person ends up

580
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 3: testing positive two years in for amphetamines, and it's like

581
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 3: what And you know, I talked to my boss. I'm like,

582
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: I will give you my medical license if this person

583
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: knowingly used amphetamines. Like there ain't no way, right, zero chance.

584
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: And yet and I talked to the workplace monitors. No

585
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: issues at work. I talk to this person. They have

586
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: no idea how they could have tested positive. So it's

587
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: either a false positive or you know, somehow or other,

588
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: the person got some amphetamine goo in their orange shoes.

589
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: They're mourning by accident, right. That person ended up getting

590
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: reported to the Board of Medicine because the agreement with

591
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: the state Physician Health program was will report every positive

592
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: test even if it doesn't indicate relax. And so getting

593
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: reported to a board, a licensing board, if you're previously

594
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 3: unknown to them, it is beyond terrifying. Like if you

595
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: tell me today that you're reporting me to the Texas

596
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: Board of Medicine or the mass Chusetts Board of Medicine,

597
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: the two places I'm licensed to. For whatever reason, I'm

598
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: going into a tail spend. I'm calling my therapist. I

599
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: might be, you know, getting out the shots of whiskey

600
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: later tonight to try to cope with it, and so

601
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 3: on and so on. Right, not that I would, but

602
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 3: to go back to the question that I just left hanging.

603
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: But this is very very key. The woman I said,

604
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 3: I mentioned it was using marijuana. Tank Sure. Three times

605
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: she goes to the program. They say, we want you

606
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 3: to stay for sixty days at a cost of sixty

607
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: thousand dollars, and we think we'll be able to get

608
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: you back up and running. Say you're fit to practice medicine.

609
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 3: She says, no, thank you. The program she was at

610
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 3: calls the state program, the State Physician Health Program, and

611
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 3: says she's non compliant. The State Physician Health Program then

612
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: calls the Board of Medicine and says she's non compliant.

613
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 3: The Board of Medicine then says, we want you to

614
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 3: sign this voluntary agreement not to practice immediately or else

615
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 3: we're going to come investigate you with the full force

616
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: of the law. And she ended up signing that agreement

617
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 3: not to practice. And she hasn't worked as a doctor

618
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: in eight or nine years. Wow, it is criminal.

619
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 4: Wow.

620
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: She was using marijuana team shirt three times a month

621
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 3: at night in a state where it's legal. Zero issues

622
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: at work, zero board complaints, no DUIs, and I saw

623
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: all of the medical records myself, so I know there's

624
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: no hyperbole here because I did a pro bono evaluation

625
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 3: of her and I reviewed all the records, including what

626
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: they wrote about her having severe marijuana dependents.

627
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 4: That's heartbreaking.

628
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: So the profit motive, you can't underestimate the extent to

629
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 3: which these programs will do anything to tell people you

630
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 3: got to stay for extended periods of stay.

631
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: It's like so many cults that we see where it

632
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: does start off with this grain of truth or this

633
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: grain of goodness and whatever, and you can see in

634
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: the world of being a doctor, like, oh, I've known

635
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: an antisciologist before who had access to a ton of

636
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: drugs and got addicted to it and was passing out

637
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: in the storage room, and like you can see that, Oh,

638
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: this would be bad if a doctor got addicted. But

639
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: then it just got taken so wildly out of content

640
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: and control and now it's just ruling people.

641
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one more story that I read that. So

642
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: I actually learned about this because I was doing research

643
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: for a script I'm working on in which my lead

644
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: character is a surgeon, and I found this piece by

645
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: Melissa J. Freeman who had her license revoked. The way

646
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 2: she tells it to my recollection, she did not have

647
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: a substance use disorder at all, she reported herself, because

648
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: she was really just struggling with depression, depression and anxiety

649
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: and it was making her work suffer. Patients weren't liking

650
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: her that much. Whatever quote, My phone was taken and

651
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: I had no means of contacting family or friends. I

652
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: was isolated in a locked psychiatric facility for a forensic

653
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: evaluation that nobody warned me about. I was not allowed

654
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: an attorney, I was not read any rights. There was

655
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: no due process. I was emotionally battered by psychologists, psychiatrists,

656
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: and a chaplain. She wrote that she was a sexual

657
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 2: assault survivor going in with no history of addiction who

658
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 2: They then determined that she needed to have somebody watch

659
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: her urinate in the room with her every day or

660
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: twice a week or something like that. So she left.

661
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: She was determined to be non compliant because she was like,

662
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: this is traumatizing me, and her license was revoked. How

663
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: often does that happen?

664
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: I hear stories like that. Let me back up what

665
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: you just described as heartbreaking. Yeah, it's beyond heartbreaking. I

666
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 3: hear stories like this roughly once a week. Wow. There

667
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: are people who call me and they say I'm being

668
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 3: railroaded and this and that, and then once I talk

669
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 3: to them a bit, I'm like, you know what I mean.

670
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: I might not say this out loud, but I'm like,

671
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 3: you may have a substance use disorder and you may

672
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 3: in fact pose a risk to patients. So I'll sort

673
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: of pull back a little bit emotionally when people are

674
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 3: coming to me from that perspective. But no, the story

675
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: you described where people either don't have a substance uose problem,

676
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: or the physician health program overstates the extent of the problem,

677
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: or once they've already gone to those four profit centers,

678
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: you know it would be a miracle to get out

679
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: of there without a recommendation for an extended stay. And

680
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 3: if you say no at any point along the way

681
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 3: because you're just fed up, you don't want to take

682
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: out the loans to do it, or whatever, your license

683
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: is in peril. And no matter how long you've worked

684
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 3: to be a doctor at whatever level you are, there's

685
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 3: a reasonable chance you're not going to be working in

686
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: two weeks.

687
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: So pay US sixty thousand dollars or have your license

688
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: revoked and do not get to make money for your family,

689
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: live the dream that you went to medical school for

690
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 2: so many years. For those are the two options basically

691
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: at that point, Or.

692
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: Don't report yourself if you have a giant problem because

693
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: you don't want this to happen.

694
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: Well, that is a really important point, and I want

695
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: to mention doctors commit suicide at twice the rate of

696
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: the general population. A twenty sixteen survey of female physicians

697
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 2: showed that half of them believed that they had met

698
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: criteria for a mental illness but had not sought treatment,

699
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: in part due to fear of reporting to state license

700
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: and sink boards. So all of these doctors are suffering.

701
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 2: There's a huge depression problem, and they're not getting help

702
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: because they're worried like this is going to happen to them.

703
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 3: No, you're you're exactly right. And when doctors actually need help,

704
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 3: whether it's a mental health issue generally or a substance

705
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 3: use issue in particular, then by all means they ought

706
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 3: to get it. But my strong advice is to do

707
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: it off the radar. I don't think that means you

708
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 3: can't use your insurance and you know, you don't need

709
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 3: to use aliases for your name or anything like that. Yeah,

710
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: but I would think about a dozen times before I

711
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 3: ever self reported into a state position health program given

712
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: their competing needs and interests. One to try to help doctors,

713
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 3: and I actually do think a lot of the state

714
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: programs that's what they want to do, but they're so

715
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: conflicted with the state boards of medicine in whose good

716
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 3: graces they have to remain, are highly conflicted and have

717
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 3: these financial, as I say, bi directional conflicts of interest

718
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: with all of the programs that they're referring people to,

719
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 3: because those programs that cost so much money in turn

720
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: sponsor state meetings of physician health programs, regional meetings of

721
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 3: physicianal programs, and the National Meeting of Physician Health Programs.

722
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 3: So if you actually look at the annual meeting brochure

723
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: of the Federation of State Physician Health Programs, the acronym

724
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: is FSPHP Federation State Physician Health Programs. They have an

725
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 3: annual meeting, and if you look at the back of

726
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 3: their brochure, like their sponsor page, you know the platinum

727
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 3: sponsors and the gold and the silver and the bronze,

728
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 3: and then we couldn't even make it a bronze, but

729
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: we still like you guys. If you look at that

730
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 3: list is it's literally identical to all of the programs

731
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: that these state position health programs are sending people to.

732
00:40:58,440 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 5: Wow.

733
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 2: So they're like, will pay for y'all's little conventions as

734
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: long as you keep giving us money by sending all

735
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: of your doctors here, whether they need to be here

736
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: or not.

737
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 3: That's it in a nutshell. And I haven't said this

738
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 3: explicitly here, but I'll say it now. The reason I've

739
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 3: been writing about this for the last twelve years, the

740
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: first paper I rose in twenty twelve, is because it

741
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: goes back to what I said before. Physicians don't know

742
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 3: about these programs until they get referred to one. But

743
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: once you've been referred to one, you're now in a

744
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: compromise place to go registering complaints, right, because then if

745
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: you register complaints, like, once you're in the thick of it,

746
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: you're just like an alcoholic who's in denial, right or

747
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: you know, and everyone knows in such ah.

748
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: Well, it's like in movies where someone sends you to

749
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: get a psychiatric institution. Once you're in the institution, they're like, yeah,

750
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: you can't believe that crazy bitch over there. She's of

751
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: course she's going to say that she's institutionized. You know,

752
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: they're no longer reliable narrators, which is why is Yeah,

753
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: it's so important that people like you who've been on

754
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: the other side and know that this is a legitimate

755
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: problem are talking about this.

756
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you may know the experiment that it sounds

757
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 3: like you were almost referring to it. I think it

758
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: was in the nineteen seventies there was this. I think

759
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: it was a sociologist decided to get himself committed to

760
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: an inpatient psychiatric facility, and the protocol was this, until

761
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: I get admitted, I'm just going to lie through my

762
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: teeth and tell them I'm suicidal and psychotic and all

763
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: this stuff. But the second I get into the hospital,

764
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 3: I'm just going to be myself and tell the truth.

765
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 3: M right. So I'm depressed, I'm psychotic, I'm gonna kill myself,

766
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. Gets admitted and it's like, you know,

767
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 3: I'm a sociology professor, I'm actually not depressed. I just

768
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 3: did this as an experiment, and it took days, if

769
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 3: not weeks, for that person to finally get released, right.

770
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just seaks to your point about how

771
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: compromised you are if you're in certain situations at a

772
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 3: particular place in time.

773
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 5: Yeah.

774
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: I saw a commenter on a YouTube on an interview

775
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: you did recently, sorry say use a term that I

776
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: was using in my brain, which is what he said.

777
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: This happened to me. It was the Kofka esque nightmare,

778
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 2: which is exactly what it seems like. It's like, oh, sorry,

779
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: we got you now, there's nothing you can do, and

780
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: you have to pay us to get out, a funck

781
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: ton of money to get out. Also, there was in

782
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: that same video there was Pamela Wibel, who runs a

783
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: suicide helpline for doctors. She was talking about one doctor

784
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: who was suffering from postpartum depression got sent to a

785
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: PHP and they were like, you need to do impatient

786
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: and be separated from your children for the next one

787
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: to three months, which sounds like a really great way

788
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 2: to treat postpartum depression. I'm laughing just because it's so insane.

789
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: It's obviously a horrible, horrible thing.

790
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes we so we don't cry. Yeah, is there any

791
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: good side of it?

792
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 3: I have seen, uh, some doctors who have benefited from

793
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 3: their time in physicianal programs. I mean there, you know,

794
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 3: there's a subset of people who are really sick, who

795
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 3: can't get well on their own without a real strong

796
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 3: arm there, you know, sort of having their career constantly

797
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 3: under threat. So there there are definitely people who've been

798
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 3: helped by PHPs. And and I'm not saying they're never helpful.

799
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that their power is really unchecked. Right,

800
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 3: and by the time someone thinks, you know what, this

801
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 3: just really isn't kosher. I mean, this ain't what they're

802
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 3: doing is not right. You know, you you have no

803
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: voice for the most part, right, I can. I can

804
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 3: give you an example. I love telling the story. It

805
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 3: was a It was the first paper that I published

806
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 3: about PHPs that was critic PHPs was called Ethical and

807
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: Managerial Issues and State Physician Health Programs. And we my

808
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 3: co author and I wrote it as an academic piece.

809
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 3: And you know, when you when you submit to academic journals,

810
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 3: at least the way I do it is you submit

811
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 3: to the best journal you can, you expect to get rejected,

812
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 3: and then you just move on to the next one. Right,

813
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: So I'm like, okay, it's a pretty good paper. We're

814
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 3: going to submit it to JAMA, the Journal of the

815
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 3: American Medical Association, right the top three journals in the world,

816
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 3: probably so the AMA is based in Chicago. I submit

817
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 3: the paper on a Friday. I'm sitting in my office

818
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: on Monday and I get a call on my cell

819
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 3: phone with a Chicago area code. Hello, it's West Boydctor

820
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: boy like this very very very old person voice and like,

821
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 3: please don't feel over before we're done talking. Hello, I'll

822
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: stop being that person. I'll just talk to doctor Boyd.

823
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 3: This is Catherine DeAngelis. I almost dropped the phone because

824
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: Catherine Deangelus was the editor in chief of JAMMA. She said,

825
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: doctor Boyd, we got your paper on Friday. Before we

826
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 3: send it out for review, I have one question for you.

827
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: Have either you or your co author been referred to

828
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 3: one of these programs? And I said, no, we weren't

829
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 3: referred to them. We actually were associate directors in one

830
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 3: of the state programs. And she said, okay, then we'll

831
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: send it out for review. But what that meant was,

832
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 3: it's exactly what I've been saying. Right if I had

833
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: been referred she was just going to say, Oh, these

834
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 3: are just belly aching addicts in denial and they're just

835
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 3: settling a.

836
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 5: Score bitter eces in the cult world.

837
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah.

838
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: Another Pamela Wible quote. This is pulled from the video

839
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 2: she said on the suicide helpline. What was most to

840
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: me was the number of people who called me telling

841
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: me they were forced into drug rehab programs and they

842
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: don't do drugs, they don't drink, they don't do drugs,

843
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 2: and now they're ninety days stuck in something called a PHP.

844
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 2: The first time I heard it, I thought, well, maybe

845
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: this can't quite be true. It doesn't make sense. But

846
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: when you hear it over and over again, state after

847
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 2: state after state. I've been running this hotline for twelve

848
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: years now, it's the most disturbing thing I've heard pretty much.

849
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: And it's illegal and it should not be happening. There's

850
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 2: already a suicide problem in the medical community. I can't

851
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: imagine this is helping if somebody is in that dark

852
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: of a place. Are you aware of stories where going

853
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: into the PHP has made someone worse?

854
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh for sure? Yeah, yeah, the story I offered

855
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 3: about the woman using marijuana, think sure in the evenings. No,

856
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: And I'm well aware of a number of others as well,

857
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: including one person who ended up committing suicide because he

858
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 3: didn't want to end up going to a PHP for

859
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: fear of what that would mean for his licensure. No,

860
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 3: there are a number of people who've been seriously harmed

861
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 3: by PHPs. The other thing I'll say, since you mentioned

862
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 3: you quoted Pamela Wible and people who have no substance

863
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 3: use disorder whatsoever, and then they get thrown into this

864
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: program for substance use disorders. One of the things that

865
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: PHPs do is they publish outcome data right that say, look,

866
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 3: after three years of monitoring, eighty five percent of the

867
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 3: physicians who come through our doors leave without having had

868
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 3: a positive drug test, and they're able to go back

869
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: to work. And my contention is that if you didn't

870
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 3: have a substance use problem in the first place, and

871
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: you're forced into a monitoring agreement for substance use, it

872
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 3: ain't no credit on the PHP if you come out

873
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: of there three years later, five years later and you're

874
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 3: totally sober. Right. The other thing, since you mentioned suicide,

875
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 3: is if a physician commits suicide while they're on a

876
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 3: monitoring agreement, the PHPs are not including their data as

877
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 3: outcome data. Right, So if someone goes into a PHP,

878
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 3: signs a monitoring agreement, ends up committing suicide in the

879
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 3: midst of that, they're not even going to be counted

880
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 3: toward the fifteen percent who are not successful.

881
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: Wow.

882
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 3: Also, if someone just throws their hands up and says

883
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 3: f this, I'm out of here, walks right and doesn't complete,

884
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 3: they also are not included in this data.

885
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 2: Right right. So, like you mentioned the word coercion earlier,

886
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 2: and that's the appropriate word. I think when you literally

887
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: have to do anything they say, or you lose your

888
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 2: job and you literally have to pay tens of thousands

889
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 2: of dollars or you lose your job, there's financial coercion happening.

890
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 6: You Know.

891
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: What it reminds me of is the Troubled Team programs

892
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: absolutely where it's like we, oh, you got a problem,

893
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: even if that problem is like a normal problem or whatever, going.

894
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 5: To send you to absolute hell.

895
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

896
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's no system of.

897
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: There's no oversight, there's no one checking that power, there's

898
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: no one monitoring to see whether abuses have occurred. Like

899
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: they're just basically allowed to do whatever they want, right, Yeah, No, your.

900
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 3: Point is a good one, and you know, the tie

901
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 3: in with Colts I think is pretty apt for the

902
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: reasons you were just getting to. Namely, there is basically,

903
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 3: almost uniformly around the country, there's no easy avenue of appeal.

904
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 3: If you're a doctor and you don't like what the

905
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 3: PHP is telling you, if you want to appeal that,

906
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: generally it's going to take a year and a half

907
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 3: and you're paying a private attorney and you may be

908
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 3: out of work during that entire time. Unless you're independently wealthy.

909
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 3: That it just ain't happening, right, Yeah, practically speaking, just

910
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 3: sucking it up and going along with what you're being

911
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 3: told as opposed to fighting it makes sense, So there's

912
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 3: no avenue of appeal. Also, it's like once you're talking

913
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 3: to people who run PAD or you're talking to people

914
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 3: who run the state boards of Medicine and you're trying

915
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 3: to register any complaint like you know, this might not

916
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 3: be kosher, they're just going to look at you like

917
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 3: you're you're out of your mind, right, I mean, so

918
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 3: you might as well be appealing to the co leader

919
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, you know what I've been in here

920
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 3: for six weeks and now I'm kind of saying, shit,

921
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 3: I don't really like it, and it's kind of like, wow, right,

922
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 3: you're not going to get anywhere with that, right, right?

923
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 2: So what what is needed?

924
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, what's the answer?

925
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 3: I think? I think what's needed is to shine as

926
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 3: much light on standard PHP practices as is humanly possible.

927
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 3: That's been my goal since I started writing about PHPs,

928
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 3: and once I started realizing that there are a lot

929
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 3: of practices that need to be reformed and why why

930
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 3: so gold Job number one is shining light on them

931
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 3: and getting people informed about them because, as I said

932
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 3: at the outset, no by he knows about PHPs until

933
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 3: they get referred to it, right, And once you get

934
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 3: referred to a PHP, it's now too late to even

935
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 3: think about actually registering a complaint that's going to have

936
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 3: any impact in a good way.

937
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: I feel like in medical school and in residency, there

938
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: should be like a day where they just explain this

939
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: to you because yeah.

940
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 3: Well you know, back in the day I actually lectured

941
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 3: to medical students about the benefits of the PHPs. I said,

942
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 3: you know, we're confident.

943
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 6: No.

944
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: When I was in the PHP, before I started having

945
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 3: my own concerns, and so I was in the PHP

946
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 3: as the associate director for six years, and it was

947
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: near the end where some of us started saying, you

948
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 3: know what, there's a lot of stuff happening here that

949
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 3: we ought to try to reform. Right But before that,

950
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 3: I was, you know, come on in, get confidential help

951
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts back then. I don't know what's happening now,

952
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 3: but we were doing our own evaluations in house. So

953
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 3: that's why I, as a psychiatrist, was an associate director

954
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 3: because I was meeting with people and doing my own evaluations.

955
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,399
Speaker 3: It wasn't like everyone who walked through the door got

956
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 3: sent out of state to Lawrence, Kansas, or you know, Marworth, Pennsylvania,

957
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: or you know all the various places around the country

958
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: that people are getting sent to. So it was, you know,

959
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 3: I felt good about the work I was doing, even

960
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 3: though I knew some people had their arms twisted and

961
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 3: were being forced to come in. You know, I've obviously

962
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 3: had a big change of heart, and I would not

963
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 3: encourage people as a first or second step who are

964
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 3: doctors or medical students to go to the PHP if

965
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 3: they need mental health help or help with a substitute disorder.

966
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 3: I would strongly encourage them to get private help that

967
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 3: is not associated with any physician help program.

968
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 5: So can I ask one more quick question.

969
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: Let's say I go to a private psychologist and I'm like,

970
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: I am abusing drugs and I have surgery at six am,

971
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: but at two am, I'm taking a lot of ambient

972
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: and drinking.

973
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 5: Are they is that a mandated.

974
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,399
Speaker 1: Report on their end or are they like, let's work

975
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: on it.

976
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 3: The rules very state by state. In most states, you

977
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 3: probably would be a mandated reporter if the situation was

978
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 3: bad enough got you.

979
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 2: But thinking about going to medical school, I'm thinking about it.

980
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Sun's sounded more and more fun to me.

981
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I have been in the city. I

982
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 3: mean my special area within psychiatry, as I said, is substantutes,

983
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 3: and over the years, I've treated hundreds at this point,

984
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 3: if not probably not thousands, but possibly thousands of doctors.

985
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 3: And so it's not infrequently, you know, if you're working

986
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 3: in substantutes, even you know, should I let this person

987
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 3: walk out the door if I know they're going to

988
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 3: be driving home and they've had drinks prior to coming

989
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 3: into my office, right, so you need I mean, I

990
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: think it comes down to having a very mature and

991
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 3: experienced clinician who's not going to just willy nilly, you know,

992
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 3: call the authorities depending on what they're setting across from,

993
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 3: you know, in the therapy chair. Right, they've only been

994
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: I think there have been probably two times where I thought,

995
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 3: this doctor is flat out you know, sitting across from me.

996
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 3: I do not want this person seeing patients period. Right,

997
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 3: that's really I mean, I again seen hundreds, if not

998
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 3: thousands of people, and it's just really a dramatic outlier

999
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: when you get to that point.

1000
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: Wow, I'm so I don't have anything interesting to say

1001
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: on this particularly, but I'm just becoming more and more

1002
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 2: interested in the influence, the like hidden influence of money

1003
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 2: and how even when you're not like explicitly being a

1004
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 2: fairs necessarily or not consciously knowing, there's a financial incentive

1005
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,439
Speaker 2: for your program and you know, maybe your boss said, well,

1006
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 2: we really want to try to get as many people

1007
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: as we can and here, so if there's anything on that,

1008
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 2: you know, there's just this like sort of hidden influence

1009
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: when there is an oversight, and obviously we see that

1010
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 2: at all levels of government and healthcare systems and treatment facilities,

1011
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 2: and I have nothing to say other than that it

1012
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 2: pisses me off. That's all I have to say about it,

1013
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: and that you're really brave for speaking out about it, yeah,

1014
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 2: and that.

1015
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you should be pissed off. And I got

1016
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 3: to say, I've seen enough evaluations from some of these

1017
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 3: centers that the various PHPs use around the country, and

1018
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 3: the extent to which they will take information and view

1019
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 3: it in the single worst light humanly possible, right in

1020
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 3: order to justify saying you're not fit to practice and

1021
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 3: you need to stay for thirty sixty year, ninety days

1022
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 3: at a cost of you know, tens of thousands of dollars.

1023
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 3: I have seen so many reports at this point from

1024
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 3: those centers, you know, rendering diagnoses where I'll end up

1025
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 3: writing an expert opinion, you know, literally countering every single

1026
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 3: one of those opinions. Wow, it's it's really disgusting. And

1027
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 3: you can't underestimate, as you just said, doctor Blonk, you

1028
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 3: just said, you can't underestimate the power of money and

1029
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 3: the influence that it has. In fact that you know,

1030
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 3: going back to the woman I have mentioned now a

1031
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 3: couple of times when she ultimately said no, I'm not

1032
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 3: going to stay for your sixty days of treatment. The

1033
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 3: evaluation center said to her, quote, isn't your career worth

1034
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,439
Speaker 3: sixty five thousand dollars book?

1035
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: Wow? Weill was doing the home alone screen. She's people

1036
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: who can't see listening.

1037
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 3: To And they would not even give her a phone

1038
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 3: to make a call so she can get a ride

1039
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 3: to the airport. She had to borrow one of the

1040
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 3: other patient's phones.

1041
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 2: Wow.

1042
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 3: I mean, so you want to talk about a call,

1043
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 3: they make it difficult to leave. They would not and

1044
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 3: also they even said, you know here they were in

1045
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 3: the office giving her the diagnosis. The room where you

1046
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 3: can make the financial arrangements is right next door. They said,

1047
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 3: if you can't pay it up front, we have a

1048
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 3: payment plan for you. I mean, they did everything they

1049
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 3: can to try to coercer it.

1050
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 2: It's like an interrogation room. The coercion is very obvious.

1051
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 2: And I hope that as you continue to talk about

1052
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 2: this and everyone else who's talking about it, I hope

1053
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 2: that people take it seriously. I don't know if it's

1054
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: like I don't know if an oversight committee committee is formed,

1055
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 2: or you know, there's reform in terms of the requirements

1056
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 2: for where you go, maybe you can get evaluated an

1057
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 2: alternative place like I don't know what the answer is.

1058
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure you have much better ideas, but I hope

1059
00:58:59,000 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: that they happen.

1060
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 3: Really are oh, I fully agree. I've been calling for

1061
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 3: national standards for physician health programs now for twelve years

1062
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 3: and one of the former presidents of the National Federation

1063
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 3: of Physician Health Programs literally laughed in my face when

1064
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 3: I said when I said, there ought to be national standards,

1065
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 3: and he said, that'll never happen. And I said, why

1066
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 3: is that? And he said, because every program is unique,

1067
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: which they are in a way, but that doesn't change

1068
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 3: the fact that you could set standards, you know, by

1069
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 3: which all programs would be judged. The other thing I've

1070
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 3: been calling for is external audits by people who are

1071
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 3: not PHP insiders. In response to that call, what some

1072
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 3: PHPs have done is they meet this guy who used

1073
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 3: to be the president in the Washington Physician Heal Program

1074
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 3: who's now mostly retired except now he goes around doing

1075
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 3: audits of state physician health programs and he's former president

1076
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 3: of the National Federation. He's friendly with everybody personally, a

1077
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 3: very good guy, but he's just given, like you know,

1078
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 3: pat on the head. You know, maybe you want to

1079
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 3: let him in on you know, six pm on Thursdays

1080
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 3: and not seven pm. But it's not really you know,

1081
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 3: they're not recommendations to overhaul the program and have true

1082
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 3: accountability and have means of actually appealing recommendations made by PHPs.

1083
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 3: The last thing I'll say, and you sort of alluded

1084
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 3: to this, is why can't you go get an evaluation

1085
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 3: at a different program that's not for profit? Like I

1086
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 3: practice in Boston, Massachusetts for twenty eight years. I'm supposed

1087
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 3: to be there right now, but I'm not. But you know,

1088
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 3: that's home to two of the top five psychiatric hospitals

1089
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 3: in the country according to US News and World Report,

1090
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: namely McLain Hospital and mass General Hospital. And if you're

1091
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts and say I don't want to go to

1092
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 3: Kansas for an evaluation, I don't want to go down

1093
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 3: to Williamsburg, Virginia, or Atlanta, Georgia, or Marworth, Pennsylvania. I

1094
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 3: want to go to mass General or McLean, they will

1095
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 3: generally laugh in your face because McLean and mash General

1096
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 3: are not on the preferred list. And why are they

1097
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 3: not on the preferred list because they're not kicking money

1098
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 3: into the coffers of the PHPs.

1099
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 2: Damn.

1100
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 4: And it all comes full circle.

1101
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 6: Money.

1102
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 3: God, you guys are right. I gotta say.

1103
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: We're trying it, get to the bottom of stuff and

1104
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: still keep it relatively.

1105
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 5: I don't know, fun, fun, I don't know. Yeah, damn.

1106
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for coming on.

1107
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 4: Truly.

1108
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 2: Where can people find more of your work in your

1109
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 2: writing and everything?

1110
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 3: I have a website j Wesley Boyd dot com where

1111
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 3: I post some things. I started the website when I

1112
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 3: wrote my book about twelve years ago, but now just

1113
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 3: sort of tap it along a little bit. But I

1114
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 3: write in academic and lay press pretty regularly, and so

1115
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 3: just find me there. Also. Yeah, and I have a

1116
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 3: new job full time as of a week ago, where

1117
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 3: I'm Director of Education in the Center for Bioethics at

1118
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 3: Harvard Medical School.

1119
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, damns, yeah, thanks and so yeah, just go

1120
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 2: to Center for Bioethics, Harvard Medical School and easy to

1121
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 2: find there. Amazing. Well, thank you again so much.

1122
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 4: Yes, thanks, This.

1123
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 3: Is really fun and hopefully informative for folks. And again,

1124
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 3: my mission with this issue is just to get the

1125
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 3: word out to whatever extent possible. So thank you both

1126
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 3: so much for contributing to that. I really appreciate it.

1127
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 2: Well, there we have it, We have learned about PHPs.

1128
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: If you're a doctor and you listen to us, which

1129
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 2: shout out if we have any doctor listeners, be wary,

1130
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 2: be wary. But Megan, if you were in that position

1131
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 2: and you were struggling with a and you were a doctor,

1132
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 2: what would you do.

1133
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 1: Well, I know I do experience half of this equation,

1134
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 1: and it's the addiction part, not being a doctor part.

1135
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: Now from what we've borne from WES, I would absolutely

1136
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: go to a private doctor outside of that network and

1137
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: deal with it like a normal human instead of getting

1138
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: sucked into this CULTI vacuum.

1139
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, or like, if you know, need to go

1140
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 2: to rehab, you really should be able to like have

1141
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 2: some say and what rehab you go to. Although that's

1142
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 2: a whole nother That's a whole nother story is how

1143
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 2: many for profit rehabs there are that are not actually

1144
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:41,959
Speaker 2: really helping people and are taking a lot of their money.

1145
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 2: So we really don't have good resources for people with

1146
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 2: addiction in this country at the moment, but hopefully that

1147
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 2: will change.

1148
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 4: Hopefully. Indeed, also there are some great rehabs, thank god.

1149
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 4: So I don't know. It's all about doing a lot

1150
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 4: of research.

1151
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 5: I guess.

1152
01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1153
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 4: Sometimes people and the throes of it can't do which sucks.

1154
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: Well, or they can't afford it, which was the problem

1155
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 2: that my brother had. You know, yeah, medical wouldn't cover

1156
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 2: anywhere real So that's a thing. But hopefully the more

1157
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: we talk about stuff like this, the more awareness can

1158
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 2: spread and eventually maybe something good will happen. I don't know.

1159
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: We're trying, we sure are.

1160
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 1: Thank you for spending another week with us here at

1161
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: trust Me. Remember to rate us five stars and give

1162
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: us a good review, and as always, remember to follow your.

1163
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 4: Guts, watch out for red flags.

1164
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me Ye. Trust Me is produced

1165
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1166
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 4: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1167
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1168
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1169
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1170
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1171
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1172
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth Eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1173
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1174
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word