Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
Speaker 1: you a Charlotte. So, you, guys, this is exciting. I
Speaker 1: have my very first expert on. She is doctor Hillary Goldscher.
Speaker 1: She's a clinical psychologist based in Beverly Hills. She has
Speaker 1: over ten years of experience of being a therapist and
Speaker 1: she is incredibly smart. So we're going to talk to
Speaker 1: her about some general issues and topics of Sex and
Speaker 1: the City, but also we're going to talk to her
Speaker 1: about they have Married Pigs and the sex tape storyline. Okay, hi,
Speaker 1: doctor Goldscher, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: It's so nice to be here.
Speaker 1: So wow, wow, I'm so excited. You're my first expert.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to train you on.
Speaker 1: Ya ya, I love it, love it. But part of
Speaker 1: the reason that I'm excited to have you on is
Speaker 1: that one of the things that I want to talk
Speaker 1: about in general with the show and rewatching, especially the
Speaker 1: beginning of Sex and the City. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you have rewatched, or if you've seen the beginning long
Speaker 1: time ago. In the beginning or more recently.
Speaker 2: I saw it as a fan a long time ago. Now,
Speaker 2: in preparation for this podcast, I watched I think episode one,
Speaker 2: no no, season one, episode two and three.
Speaker 1: Oh great, Okay, so you missed the pilot, which is
Speaker 1: fine because my big questions do have to do with
Speaker 1: two and three. But I mean, really, what I want
Speaker 1: is I'm so kind of I had not rewatched it
Speaker 1: until this podcast because for me, I didn't want to
Speaker 1: live in the past. You know, I felt like that's
Speaker 1: the past, and in my mind I had made it
Speaker 1: somehow less good or whatever than like what we did
Speaker 1: as we went along. I don't know exactly why, but
Speaker 1: you know, we got this kind of wonderful opportunity to
Speaker 1: develop as we went you know, HBO really let us
Speaker 1: develop and change and shift. So like to me, in
Speaker 1: the beginning, we really didn't know what we were doing.
Speaker 1: We filmed the whole first season without it being on
Speaker 1: the air. We didn't know the response. We were so
Speaker 1: nervous about how people were going to respond. And in
Speaker 1: some ways that makes sense because a there weren't really
Speaker 1: for women talking about relationships and sex so openly, right,
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of kind of shock and
Speaker 1: oh my god. But then also when I watched the
Speaker 1: first episode when we got picked up, which is models
Speaker 1: and mortals, there's this crazy sex tape storyline and I
Speaker 1: didn't remember it at all, Okay, Like I I was
Speaker 1: just like, what is happening?
Speaker 2: Like no apology for filming with no consent.
Speaker 1: Right, no apology whatsoever. And so I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about like those types of issues and how
Speaker 1: we've changed since then culturally, like the cultural kind of
Speaker 1: norms and conversations around things I feel like have changed.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really good exams And I'm
Speaker 1: shocked that we I mean, I have thoughts and I
Speaker 1: want to know your thoughts on like the fact that
Speaker 1: Carrie had to sit there with them and watch it
Speaker 1: and say, like I need a cigarette, Like what's that about?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: What is that?
Speaker 1: What do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean it's so interesting because it so
Speaker 2: deliberately casts everyone in the perceived cultural roles that we're
Speaker 2: supposed to embody, right, Harry is sort of cast as
Speaker 2: the like bothered witness, right right, that isn't supposed to
Speaker 2: have any other reaction, but like I'm a little hot
Speaker 2: and bothered and maybe a little uncomfortable, And isn't that
Speaker 2: sort of cute and sweet? Right right? And the idea
Speaker 2: of impact from the male's perspective, Like, how does anyone
Speaker 2: feel in this scenario isn't really adopted or explored. Having
Speaker 2: said that, I mean just to hold both sides. We
Speaker 2: can talk about our opinions, our thoughts in a moment,
Speaker 2: but holding both sides, there is sort of an interesting
Speaker 2: unapology jetic freedom around sex, right, no shock value around
Speaker 2: these sort of fantasies and ideas and thoughts. And there's
Speaker 2: something interesting about that. I mean, we've pivoted to a
Speaker 2: completely other place currently for the most part, and perhaps
Speaker 2: something is lost. I don't think we would want to
Speaker 2: retain the lack of like consent and boundaries and like
Speaker 2: open conversation about what's comfortable to people. But perhaps there's
Speaker 2: like a spontaneity and an even enjoyable impulsivity that is
Speaker 2: lost in translation.
Speaker 1: That's true, That's a good point. I mean, I do
Speaker 1: think that in the beginning of the show, and from
Speaker 1: the column that Candace Pushnell had written, the non judgmental
Speaker 1: part was huge, right that, like they're kind of just
Speaker 1: reporting Candace and her alter ego that she created for
Speaker 1: the column, are just reporting what they've heard, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, They're not part of they're not saying, yes,
Speaker 1: this is fine, They're just like, this is what happened,
Speaker 1: this is what this dude is doing, you know, and
Speaker 1: that's what he's doing, you know, which is interesting from
Speaker 1: so many perspectives, and I feel like, yes, at the time,
Speaker 1: it was a huge kind of taking the lid off right,
Speaker 1: like freedom to discuss how does everyone feel about it?
Speaker 1: What would you do? What do you think?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Which was great and that's partly why I wanted to
Speaker 1: do this podcast is that so many of those themes
Speaker 1: and kind of issues we talked about are so interesting
Speaker 1: to look at now, like are they still relevant? Are
Speaker 1: they not relevant? And I mean, obviously, were we to
Speaker 1: come across this guy now, it would be a whole
Speaker 1: different reaction, and rightly so. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: I think at the time, because it wasn't really discussed,
Speaker 1: there was a freedom we were trying to say, like
Speaker 1: we're going to put it out there, We're not going
Speaker 1: to necessarily judge it. The different characters might have different
Speaker 1: feelings about it, Like remember when Kerrie then tells Samantha like, oh,
Speaker 1: you don't want to go over there because this guy's
Speaker 1: filling you know, models with and then she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I want to be filmed, you know. And I thought
Speaker 1: when I was watching it, like maybe that was Candice
Speaker 1: and or whoever she was writing about kind of trying
Speaker 1: to take back the power of of that. What do
Speaker 1: you make of Samantha's.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was just going to say, I think Samantha's
Speaker 2: POV in general is actually really valuable because with her
Speaker 2: it's not really about consent per se. She's sort of
Speaker 2: always up for whatever and will narrate her feelings and
Speaker 2: desires with sort of unabashed energy. And there's something about
Speaker 2: a woman, even now, certainly back then, a woman taking
Speaker 2: responsibility for her own sexual journey, her own sexual pleasure. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's curious and excited and energetic and connected and unashamed. Yes,
Speaker 2: so powerful, right, is something that I think is so
Speaker 2: completely relevant. I mean, today versus then, there's more dialogue
Speaker 2: around that and more embodiment of that dynamic. But many
Speaker 2: women still feel like, is it okay for me to
Speaker 2: talk about my own orgasm in the context of my
Speaker 2: relationship with my girlfriends, with my therapist. It's still to
Speaker 2: some people not okay, or maybe there's a limit to
Speaker 2: how much you can discuss it or how much you
Speaker 2: can focus on it once actual desire and journey. So
Speaker 2: I love that piece of it and the through line
Speaker 2: in terms of Samantha's character and perspective, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of throughout the series as far as I can remember,
Speaker 2: really hold space for that.
Speaker 1: It does, and it's very unique, Like it's hard to
Speaker 1: come up with in your mind other characters in film
Speaker 1: or television who are so free and so connected. She's
Speaker 1: not free where you're like that girl's damaged. You're like,
Speaker 1: she's just that's who she is, and she's not going
Speaker 1: to apologize, And there's something so amazing, and I feel
Speaker 1: like that's why people there are, you know, so many
Speaker 1: people who are so connected and resonant with Samantha because
Speaker 1: she's so powerful and such a great example that like
Speaker 1: most of us would struggle to try.
Speaker 2: To be like absolutely and relative to men's sexual journey,
Speaker 2: both back then and now, it's sort of fair for
Speaker 2: men to ow and direct and dedicate like machismo and
Speaker 2: energy to their sexual pursuits, but for women that's still
Speaker 2: even today. Absolutely, if we ran into Samantha, it's your
Speaker 2: reaction to it in her community, you know, in terms
Speaker 2: of the people that she touched and interacts with. So
Speaker 2: I love the representation. I love the idea that they're
Speaker 2: still room to think about how do women like on
Speaker 2: a macro and a micro level, embody their sexuality in
Speaker 2: a way that of course reflects boundaries and pace and
Speaker 2: rhythm and changing of minds, right, But also it's like,
Speaker 2: what am I curious about? What am I interested in?
Speaker 2: What am I excited about? Like being able to hold
Speaker 2: both is an amazing notion.
Speaker 1: It is an amazing notion. And I definitely feel that
Speaker 1: we're still struggling, you know, to get there, and we're
Speaker 1: I feel kind of confused in a way. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm reading into it, but like for me,
Speaker 1: so here, we've been doing the show. You know, we
Speaker 1: started in nineteen ninety seven, which is insane to think about, right,
Speaker 1: like so long ago, and yet now you can still
Speaker 1: talk about almost all the different themes. Like if you
Speaker 1: look at the pilot, the pilot was ghosting. We didn't
Speaker 1: call it that, but it was ghosting. And then it
Speaker 1: was can women have sex like men? Which is basically
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, Like, for whatever reason, the way
Speaker 1: that men are socialized and or hardwired, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: sure you know which it is. They have a lot
Speaker 1: more freedom. It seems like overall. Maybe this is stereotype.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but they seem to have a lot
Speaker 1: more freedom, Like this is what I'm into, you know,
Speaker 1: don't kink shame me? You know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: they're very quickly defensive, like, how dare you kink shame me?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, which I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: want to go too far, but sometimes people who have
Speaker 1: done things that are not consensual with other people, or
Speaker 1: the other people at least say that they weren't consensual,
Speaker 1: then say you're kink shaming me, which is super fascinating,
Speaker 1: like the woman is. It's just like sometimes I feel
Speaker 1: like we're on very different pages.
Speaker 2: Still, I think men are bestowed with a right to
Speaker 2: explore and declare their sexuality and women are not. It's evolved,
Speaker 2: it is still a distinct difference in terms of that
Speaker 2: openness and flexibility expected from fascinating.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's a hardwired thing or do
Speaker 1: you feel like it's socialization.
Speaker 2: I think it's a combination of both. I don't think
Speaker 2: we can deny the roles of men and women. You know,
Speaker 2: long ago in terms of being sort of hunters and
Speaker 2: gathers men, which cast in the role of taking care
Speaker 2: of and going out in the community and pursuing and
Speaker 2: bringing back and in sort of that powerful in control
Speaker 2: role and meant to you know, sort of keep things
Speaker 2: in the community coming and buzzing and creating. Right, And
Speaker 2: so then also have this sort of primitive edict to
Speaker 2: pro create, and women are supposed to be the you know,
Speaker 2: passive participant in that. I mean sort of from a
Speaker 2: primitive standpoint. That's how were And so I think some
Speaker 2: of it has been internalized in terms of the internal
Speaker 2: desires that men and women feel. That men do feel
Speaker 2: a poll to procreate and women do feel a poll
Speaker 2: to like make a home and like take care of.
Speaker 2: Some of that feels viscerally true for men. So I
Speaker 2: agree some of it is chemical, biological hormonal that's sort
Speaker 2: of in there. Even most evolved women sometimes acknowledge, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I still have this poll to be in that role,
Speaker 2: even though I don't even know if I intellectually want
Speaker 2: to be. So there's something in there that feels like
Speaker 2: it comes from an organic place. But there's no question
Speaker 2: that many many arenas in our culture and society support
Speaker 2: just this, you know, this idea that women are still
Speaker 2: supposed to play small or they can only play and
Speaker 2: embody sort of a larger persona if it's sexual in nature,
Speaker 2: right in the object of desire or affection. Obviously, there
Speaker 2: are many, many exceptions, and women have evolved in many
Speaker 2: ways in many roles, but I'm talking about sort of
Speaker 2: these stereotypes that are so woven into the culture. It's
Speaker 2: much more acceptable for men to expand and take up
Speaker 2: space in all the ways, including sexuality, and it's much
Speaker 2: less acceptable for women to do so, more so than
Speaker 2: when your show first came out.
Speaker 1: Rightly, for sure, for sure, just personally, I went through
Speaker 1: this thing where so I'm on the show, and the show,
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of had a slow burn and
Speaker 1: then more and more success, and then season three it
Speaker 1: was just like, wow, you know, you're nominated for Emmys
Speaker 1: whatever things we never thought would happen. And that was exciting, right,
Speaker 1: but it was also a lot of pressure and you
Speaker 1: had to kind of figure out how you were going
Speaker 1: to present yourself. And I have a team, you know,
Speaker 1: like a manager and a publicist at an agent, and I
Speaker 1: remember when we got nominated for the Emmys. I didn't
Speaker 1: know what to wear, and so I go to a stylist.
Speaker 1: I first I went to all these designers myself, and
Speaker 1: then I went to a stylist because all everyone on
Speaker 1: my team had different opinions. So I had this one
Speaker 1: dress that was like a cutout, like very sexy, skin
Speaker 1: bearing dress, very not me, like I was not really
Speaker 1: that comfort with it, but the designer really wanted me
Speaker 1: to wear it. My manager was like, you've got to
Speaker 1: wear that because people don't think you're sexy because you
Speaker 1: play the prude on the show. And I was like, really,
Speaker 1: are you sure because I am still on Sex and
Speaker 1: the City, like the show itself is about talking about
Speaker 1: sex and working through these things or whatever. He's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you need to wear that dress with all the skin.
Speaker 1: Then my publicist, my head publicist, was like, oh no,
Speaker 1: Darling's your She's like, you need to wear this princess
Speaker 1: dress because you know class and you know, and I
Speaker 1: was like okay. So it was this whole thing of
Speaker 1: like how do I present myself? What am I trying
Speaker 1: to do? Who am I within this conversation and it
Speaker 1: was super stressful. And then my mother, of course would
Speaker 1: not be wanting me to be wearing this skin bearing situation,
Speaker 1: so I would have to deal with her feelings. So
Speaker 1: I went with I think a middle ground. I think
Speaker 1: I found a middle ground that I liked. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna wear what I like. I had talked
Speaker 1: to the girls about what they were wearing. We were
Speaker 1: trying to coordinate, right, but like just trying to find
Speaker 1: what you're presenting. And then you look at how people
Speaker 1: resent themselves. Now it's totally normal to have almost everyone
Speaker 1: on a red carpet in a sheer dress where potentially
Speaker 1: their nipples are showing, Like this never would have happened
Speaker 1: back in the olden days. We were scared about showing
Speaker 1: our nipples on the show. We were like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: they want us to show our nipples. We were so
Speaker 1: worried about it, right, like would we be shunned, would
Speaker 1: we be you know, cast out or by the film
Speaker 1: world or whatever, which is kind of insane to think about,
Speaker 1: right because now they don't even really put sex in films, right, Like,
Speaker 1: just all of this stuff is so interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. Your personal journey about
Speaker 2: reconciling what your character represented and who you are in
Speaker 2: a relationship to that and the public perception. That's so
Speaker 2: interesting that you had your own journey about what do
Speaker 2: I want in communicate? It makes so much sense because
Speaker 2: I imagine you didn't want to be cast as just
Speaker 2: that as now herself in real life and even as
Speaker 2: the character she's meant to be a much more nuanced
Speaker 2: than that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, but that took some time, right, Like she wasn't.
Speaker 1: None of us were, with the exception of Carrie, none
Speaker 1: of us were really started in a nuanced way. We
Speaker 1: just brought what we brought and they wrote towards us.
Speaker 1: And in that way, we were just incredibly lucky that
Speaker 1: that happened and that we got to continue on still
Speaker 1: to this day, thank god. Right, And so for me,
Speaker 1: I mean, people say like, oh, are you worried about
Speaker 1: being typecasts whatever? I was like, why spend time worrying
Speaker 1: about this? You know, we know this is how our
Speaker 1: business is. It is what it is. I love Charlotte, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm not against Charlotte in anyway. She's great in so
Speaker 1: many ways, and in the beginning she wasn't all of
Speaker 1: those things. But in my inners she was. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like inside. I was playing. I was
Speaker 1: trying to play all those things and bring all those things,
Speaker 1: and I didn't feel like, oh gosh, I'm such a prude,
Speaker 1: like that never entered my mind because I know myself, right,
Speaker 1: and I know my own existence, but also didn't feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: I want to go prove to everybody that are not approved.
Speaker 1: That seems crazy.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the way that the perspectives played out
Speaker 2: over the seasons did a service for the viewers, right
Speaker 2: in the sense that I mean, there's always conversation of
Speaker 2: who are who are you? Right?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Able to relate to the different aspects of oneself and
Speaker 2: have them represented in such silos really gave an opportunity
Speaker 2: to like consider yourself in relation to each of those
Speaker 2: kinds of personas.
Speaker 1: That's well put. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And just to reflect back on what you were saying
Speaker 2: in terms of this evolution of right there, you were
Speaker 2: worried about showing a bit of cutout or your nipples
Speaker 2: or something. In today, I think we just had someone
Speaker 2: naked of the Grammy red carpet, right. I mean, so
Speaker 2: the evolution is stark, but it's interesting because I think
Speaker 2: you're making me think about the fact that it is
Speaker 2: one arena and rightfully so that women have claimed empowerment
Speaker 2: right that, like, I can show myself and present myself
Speaker 2: and my body in any way I choose, and any
Speaker 2: feedback or criticism that is bestowed upon me I refuse
Speaker 2: to accept as a narrative about who I am. I
Speaker 2: get to decide. And it's really interesting that presenting oneself
Speaker 2: in a sexy way is a way of kind of
Speaker 2: curating empowerment. Now that's one way, it's not the right
Speaker 2: one way that really claim and prior women felt that
Speaker 2: the judgment that might come from doing a small version
Speaker 2: of that was too big of a sacrifice. And now
Speaker 2: it's really utilized as a tool of like a declaration
Speaker 2: of independence.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's well put. That's well put. I mean it's
Speaker 1: so true, and I feel like that is a big shift,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I hope that.
Speaker 1: Women or younger women especially, I hope that they perceive
Speaker 1: it as an empowering thing.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I was just going to say, I mean,
Speaker 2: an important nuance to that. Maybe it's obvious, but we're saying,
Speaker 2: is that that may or may not resonate with an
Speaker 2: individual woman, right, an individual one, So that that's not
Speaker 2: for me that that that isn't how my soul wants
Speaker 2: to express empowerment. Great and the natural that's exactly how
Speaker 2: my soul wants to express empowerment as right right.
Speaker 1: Right there shouldn't be pressure, It should be very uniquely
Speaker 1: you and organic to you. And that that's I think
Speaker 1: the big message, and I feel like in some ways
Speaker 1: that was also what we were hoping the message was
Speaker 1: in terms of all four of us being so distinct,
Speaker 1: right like, And that was one thing we wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about too with you, is female friendships. And you know,
Speaker 1: back in the beginning, Charlotte was this different voice I kept,
Speaker 1: you know, continually talking about wanting to get married or whatever,
Speaker 1: which is obviously very opposite to Samantha and the other
Speaker 1: tour in the middle kind of well not really, They're
Speaker 1: like no, and then different things happened to them in life.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's I love how people really gravitate to,
Speaker 1: you know, when like the line when I eventually I
Speaker 1: can't remember if it's season three, season four, and I say,
Speaker 1: maybe we could just be each other's soulmates, you know,
Speaker 1: and people still talk about this, and it's so amazing
Speaker 1: what people gravitate to and hold on to and what
Speaker 1: do what do you think of that? And what do
Speaker 1: you think of that?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: Like, is female friendship more out in the open or
Speaker 1: more honored?
Speaker 2: Do you think? Well? I then I think it was
Speaker 2: a more unique concept and presented an alternative that really
Speaker 2: resonated with community that like, oh, maybe there's an alternative.
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't have to find the perfect person and
Speaker 2: be married or partnered to be valued and in community
Speaker 2: with others. Maybe there's an acceptability to my community of
Speaker 2: women and sort of if you will, that can be
Speaker 2: we're talking about empowerment, another potential source of empowerment that
Speaker 2: starts to chip away at the often less than feeling
Speaker 2: women feel if they're not partnered.
Speaker 1: Right, can you just re say that because it was
Speaker 1: so good, I just want to hear it again.
Speaker 2: So, women, unlike men, have this edict to be partnered,
Speaker 2: I mean specifically to get married, but to be partnered.
Speaker 2: And in the absence of that, there's an direct and
Speaker 2: indirect sense that you have not completed your life mission.
Speaker 2: You know that you are or inadequate in some way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So this presentation in that episode offered an alternative, Well,
Speaker 2: maybe you can be good enough and empowered and in
Speaker 2: affiliation and community through friendship, through other alternatives, maybe the
Speaker 2: definition of who I am can be more expansive than
Speaker 2: just by related to a man or related to the
Speaker 2: possibility of marriage and a family.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it still just needs to be repeated, like
Speaker 1: out in the world so much. I mean, as a
Speaker 1: single person myself, it's just kind of an ongoing thing
Speaker 1: like why are you single? Everyone's just very perplexed. Why
Speaker 1: are you single? They just can't quite I.
Speaker 2: Think that narrative is probably still as present as it.
Speaker 1: Was back then, which is so interesting, right.
Speaker 2: I think there's more dialogue around it. There's more table
Speaker 2: and sort of organic dialogue about Wow, what a strange
Speaker 2: phenomenon and wow, I feel that pressure and why and
Speaker 2: isn't that strange? But I still think it exists. That
Speaker 2: is similar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that definitely.
Speaker 2: I internally feel some degree of shame if they aren't
Speaker 2: partnered and specifically not married. And so I love that
Speaker 2: we're holding this dialogue up again because there's such a truth.
Speaker 2: I mean, the show embodied it, but there's such a
Speaker 2: truth in community, the power of community.
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, I really hope we were talking about this
Speaker 1: by producer and I Hannah about like for the young
Speaker 1: let's say twenties, let's put women specifically, not leaving you
Speaker 1: out men on purpose. But I work with a bunch
Speaker 1: of younger women at work when we're doing and just
Speaker 1: like that, which is so much fun and super interesting, right,
Speaker 1: because they all have just different takes on things, and
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear their point of view. And they
Speaker 1: definitely definitely talk about you know, we talk about men
Speaker 1: and relationships and you know whatever, women and they want love, right,
Speaker 1: But I don't hear them talking about getting married or
Speaker 1: want to get married or feeling the pressure to get married.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Some of them come from other places where like all
Speaker 1: their friends are married, and we talk about that, which
Speaker 1: I definitely had as well growing up in South Carolina.
Speaker 1: But they're saying they're kind of like, well, we're on
Speaker 1: our own journey, you know, we're here in New York,
Speaker 1: We're you know, doing this, we're doing that. We're on
Speaker 1: our own journey. But they were definitely looking for love, right.
Speaker 1: And then there's some of them who have friends who
Speaker 1: got married in their twenties, which is super interesting to
Speaker 1: me in a kind of bohemian way, right where they're
Speaker 1: still hanging out with all their single friends. There's not
Speaker 1: the separation so much that we used to have in
Speaker 1: like Mary Bay of Pigs. It's very clearly demarked, right,
Speaker 1: And I certainly experienced this in terms of my own life,
Speaker 1: Like when someone got married, they shifted into this other
Speaker 1: kind of world where you know they've moved, they're going
Speaker 1: to have a baby soon, you know they're on it's tracked.
Speaker 1: It's like a certain tract that you get on when
Speaker 1: you get married. And that was your goal and you
Speaker 1: were doing it whatever, or it wasn't your goal, and
Speaker 1: you did it. You know what I'm saying, Not myself
Speaker 1: but my friends. Yeah, but I mean I, as the
Speaker 1: single person, would make all kinds of efforts to still
Speaker 1: be in their lives. And you know, my best girlfriends,
Speaker 1: I'm still in their lives, thank god, and you know
Speaker 1: they're all still married, which is kind of amazing. But
Speaker 1: you might be in their life and then they might
Speaker 1: get divorced and whatever, they'd have kids and you go
Speaker 1: through that with them. But as a single person, I
Speaker 1: felt like I had to make an effort to be there,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like like I'm Auntie Kristen
Speaker 1: and I'm here. You know, I'm available, I'm babysitting, I'm
Speaker 1: doing this, I'm doing that, so that I'm part of
Speaker 1: that whole existence. But now I feel like it's a
Speaker 1: little looser in terms of the demarcation. You know, but
Speaker 1: I don't feel like society as a whole is necessarily
Speaker 1: caught up. Like, for instance, when you go to a wedding.
Speaker 1: You know, if you go to a wedding as a
Speaker 1: single person, you are still over there at this wacky
Speaker 1: table that has like kids and possibly some grandparents and yourself,
Speaker 1: which is a nightmare. You know, it's really rough, and
Speaker 1: it hasn't changed. It's coming in the show when we
Speaker 1: have weddings, and it's highly entertaining, I think, But like,
Speaker 1: I can't believe that it hasn't changed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're raising so many important issues. The first I
Speaker 2: want to acknowledge and validate. You are right that not
Speaker 2: just young young women, but relationship with marriage has shifted
Speaker 2: and has evolved. There are plenty of people that feel
Speaker 2: less pressure, feel like they can avail themselves of other
Speaker 2: options outside of marriage, whether it's long term partnership or
Speaker 2: just dating. Right, women feel much less pressure to get married,
Speaker 2: to have a family earlier. There has been absolutely some evolution. God, yeah,
Speaker 2: one of the things that was in my mind. And
Speaker 2: this is anecdotal rather than empirical, but in my practice
Speaker 2: I see adults, so a lot of adult women who
Speaker 2: are either single or have gone through divorce, who discuss,
Speaker 2: amongst other notions, but who discuss this still like internal
Speaker 2: kind of deep rooted shame around singlehood. So it's not
Speaker 2: as if the dialogue and conversation and even behavior hasn't changed.
Speaker 2: And what I'm saying might not be true for everyone,
Speaker 2: but anecdotal a still work with many women who still
Speaker 2: have that like internalized notion that there's a less than quality,
Speaker 2: if not or at least in a relationship. So I
Speaker 2: want to acknowledge that there's a shift, and yet some
Speaker 2: of that narrative still exists for some women. Definitely, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but what you were saying, I think is it remains
Speaker 2: a truth. I mean in some of it is just
Speaker 2: the is like a systemic issue being in Western culture.
Speaker 2: When you get married, generally speaking, you are going to
Speaker 2: spend more of your time with your husband, You're going
Speaker 2: to have a family, and it is going to mean
Speaker 2: that you have less flexibility to be in community right
Speaker 2: right through in Western culture, and obviously there's many many exceptions.
Speaker 2: People of course exist with a lot of intention differently,
Speaker 2: which is lovely, but it often happens that our married
Speaker 2: friend or are assumed to be mama a friend is
Speaker 2: not as available, leaving the pursuit of connection to the
Speaker 2: single person who has more flexibility based on this system.
Speaker 2: We're talking about that.
Speaker 1: Most definitely, most definitely, and in the particular show Bay
Speaker 1: of Married Pigs, which we love so much because when
Speaker 1: I looked back on it, the show is so much
Speaker 1: better than I realized, and all of the building blocks
Speaker 1: that were to kind of get fleshed out later are
Speaker 1: there in Bay of Married Pigs, which is really was
Speaker 1: kind of amazing to me, and in some ways they're
Speaker 1: there even earlier, but it really kind of gels and
Speaker 1: Bay of Married Pigs. But you know, Carrie's begins with
Speaker 1: Carrie visiting her married friends in the Hamptons and then this,
Speaker 1: you know, the husband is standing they're naked in front
Speaker 1: of her in the hallway and she's just like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, what do I do? And then she tells
Speaker 1: the wife and then she has to leave, which they
Speaker 1: don't show that part right, So it's unclear how difficult
Speaker 1: that was or uncomfortable or whatever, but clearly it was
Speaker 1: uncomfortable enough to the married friend that she that sent
Speaker 1: carry back to the city. And then we see them
Speaker 1: later and Carrie's not mad at her, which is also interesting,
Speaker 1: Like Carrie really puts up with so much. You know,
Speaker 1: she's like very easy going about everybody's feelings about everything
Speaker 1: she's doing. But she didn't actually do this thing. The
Speaker 1: man did it. So let's just discuss that for a
Speaker 1: second and the wife's reaction, because it is super interesting
Speaker 1: in terms of do you feel still that there is
Speaker 1: a thing about married women feeling that single women are
Speaker 1: a threat?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Anecdotally, I think women in long term partnerships that
Speaker 2: have kids, with the stressors of like raising kiddos and
Speaker 2: mortgage and all the like not so cute things about life,
Speaker 2: start to feel that loss of intimate and romantic connection.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's an old narrative because it exists often
Speaker 2: it's hard to be married and raise kids and stay
Speaker 2: yeah in a way that feels dynamic and sustainable. So
Speaker 2: I think it's an outgrowth of that. Yeah, anything that
Speaker 2: like there's this like disaffiliation in long term marriages sometimes
Speaker 2: and it's less about the married person specifically, or even
Speaker 2: the entity of less about the single person specifically, or
Speaker 2: even single hood or single women, and more about the
Speaker 2: difficulty of like long term marriages.
Speaker 1: That is often, Yeah, that's so smart, that's so smart.
Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. I hadn't thought about it
Speaker 1: like that, having never been married, but that makes a
Speaker 1: lot of sense. Is that it's like a projection almost
Speaker 1: in terms of you're just struggling through it, and you
Speaker 1: might not have the strength of the connection that you
Speaker 1: had when you first fall in love, and so then
Speaker 1: that other person who's not in that same situation seems
Speaker 1: threatening just because you don't have all of the things
Speaker 1: that you wish you had from your spouse.
Speaker 2: There's like a like a disorientation destabilization that marges as
Speaker 2: you just try to get through raising kids and staying
Speaker 2: connected and the logistics, and it also can be lovely
Speaker 2: and amazing and beautiful. It ebbs and flows for most people.
Speaker 2: So of course it's a representation of like the wish
Speaker 2: for connection, maybe the wish to have that kind of freedom,
Speaker 2: and the potential threat of someone else catching your partner's attention.
Speaker 2: Because it's hard to facilitate a way sometimes to feel
Speaker 2: connected or catch your partner's attention when you're just dealing
Speaker 2: with the days goings on, right, I think that's that
Speaker 2: remain that piece remains present, and in a way maybe
Speaker 2: more so because it's even harder to be a parent
Speaker 2: and be in marriage these days. There's more pressure to
Speaker 2: have your kid show up in the world a certain.
Speaker 1: Way, and it isn't there gosh.
Speaker 2: So I imagine that still exists in different forms in ways.
Speaker 2: I think in the in the episode it felt more
Speaker 2: of a more dichotomous in the sense that the issue
Speaker 2: at hand was like, oh, is my husband going to
Speaker 2: want another woman? You know sure sexually be drawn to
Speaker 2: another woman? And what kind of threat am I under
Speaker 2: when it is around? You know?
Speaker 1: So even though she had done anything like that, that's
Speaker 1: the part as a single person, I'm like, but she
Speaker 1: was just standing there like it's so hard, and it's
Speaker 1: like Samantha at the party and the different of the
Speaker 1: financial guy. She's trying to talk to this guy about
Speaker 1: investing and then his wife comes up and it is
Speaker 1: like you got to come in here, and she's just
Speaker 1: standing there, the poor woman trying to get some advice
Speaker 1: on you know, investment. Do you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 1: I've felt that myself.
Speaker 2: For a projection, and I think that's that's really a
Speaker 2: spot on. It's it's a don't even mean it to
Speaker 2: be critical. We all engage in projections. It's like a
Speaker 2: bunch of projections going on, right, Yeah, listen, conversation and
Speaker 2: innocent meeting in the hallway. Right projection is like, oh gosh,
Speaker 2: I'm under threat. Something's going on here and right, As
Speaker 2: I said, I think part of it might be the
Speaker 2: situation and the women themselves, but most of it, I
Speaker 2: think is just the entity and complication of long term partnership.
Speaker 1: It's f right, No, that's beautifully put, so well put.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And obviously the show's perspective is not
Speaker 1: that perspective, right. The show was importantly trying to be
Speaker 1: on the single person's perspective because that is kind of
Speaker 1: unrepresented at that point and underrepresented still. I would say,
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's not an unimportant POV how it
Speaker 2: feels to be on the receiving end of that energy,
Speaker 2: because if you're Harrie in that scenario, you might feel
Speaker 2: rejected or disaffiliated or misunderstood and not a part of
Speaker 2: there is that scene where she arrived and she was
Speaker 2: sort of the only single person in trying to find
Speaker 2: right place and space. So the energy, the dual energy
Speaker 2: is interesting and paradoxical right coming at her maybe is
Speaker 2: some sense of threat or envy and coming back as
Speaker 2: some sense of life. We're exactly do I belong right?
Speaker 1: And that's where I mean. Carrie is so interestingly just
Speaker 1: investigating it all, you know. She's like, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out who I am in this and maybe I
Speaker 1: don't want to get married. When she's with the the
Speaker 1: marrying guy, she's like, I don't think I want this.
Speaker 1: Here's Charlotte, you see if you want it, and we
Speaker 1: were going to talk about this. I don't know if
Speaker 1: we have time. But like for me, I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like that was weird at all that she's like, no,
Speaker 1: this is not for me. Charlotte tried out, and then
Speaker 1: Charlotte tries it out, but she has a very strong
Speaker 1: picture of what she wants and that dude's not it.
Speaker 1: So he doesn't like the china she likes. She's like out,
Speaker 1: you know, which I think is so hysterical for a girl.
Speaker 1: Who talks about like I just want to get married.
Speaker 1: I just want to get married. I just want to
Speaker 1: get married. She's like, oh bad China pattern. No, like
Speaker 1: she's got her own her own criteria. Right, that's right, right,
Speaker 1: super interesting. But Carrie too, right, Like Carrie's like, well,
Speaker 1: I tried this out and he brought the mobile out
Speaker 1: for the baby, and that just turned me right off.
Speaker 1: I am not that girl.
Speaker 2: Well, we're talking about the intersection of macro and micro,
Speaker 2: these macro under the surface dynamics and then these micro
Speaker 2: idiosyncrasies like I want someone to like be in community
Speaker 2: with me about my China pattern. You know, it's like
Speaker 2: this mystery, magical thing that has to come together for
Speaker 2: people to choose each other and it to work. You know.
Speaker 2: So it really highlights all those complexities you know, that
Speaker 2: are in many ways totally intangible. What makes it happen
Speaker 2: and be sustainable.
Speaker 1: Definitely, and why we still get to, you know, talk
Speaker 1: about the show and make a different version of the
Speaker 1: show and I mean they're so it's kind of like
Speaker 1: a never ending investigation into all of those things.
Speaker 2: It really just hits on so many topics that are
Speaker 2: interesting to explore in terms of how they evolved and
Speaker 2: some that have like remained steady and the relevant. It's
Speaker 2: a really interesting way.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for joining us. You're so smart and wonderful.
Speaker 2: Oh it's so fun to come. I could talk forever.
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't me too.
Speaker 1: I know we'll have you back and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the next the next couple themes.
Speaker 2: Ye, well doctor, your first expert.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you, it was really fun. I mean, as
Speaker 1: you can see, I could just keep talking all day.
Speaker 1: So thank you for your time, and have a eat
Speaker 1: day and we'll have you back. I can't wait. So
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you, doctor Culcher. Bye,