1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 2: Here's how Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, newly minted as 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: the nation's top law enforcement officer, explained the purging of 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: attorneys at the Justice Department. 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 3: You had prosecutors that were absolutely not doing the right thing, okay, 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 3: and so none of those prosecutors. I hope everybody agrees 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: that they shouldn't work here if you're not doing the 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 3: right thing. 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: To Blanche, prosecutors not doing the right thing means they 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 2: worked on the criminal investigations into President Trump. He failed 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: to mention that most prosecutors work on the cases they're 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: assigned to. I've been talking to Dave Ahrenberg, former Palm 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: Beach County State Attorney. Dave. I've seen different numbers, but 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: thousands of prosecutors and FBI agents have been fired or 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: resigned since Trump's second term began. You have inexperienced attorneys 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: appearing in federal court, or attorneys who have experience in 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: other areas. They have, for example, they have military lawyers 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: going in and doing immigration cases. 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 4: And it suffers because first you have judges who no 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 4: longer give so much deference to the Department of Justice. 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 4: That's a problem because these are really important cases. Federal 22 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 4: prosecutors bring important cases. These are cases involving national security terrorism, 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 4: I mean, and if they start to lose credibility in 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 4: the eyes of the bench, then Katie bar the door. 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 4: So you have that, and then you have just the 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 4: fact that when these young, inexperienced prosecutors who have now 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 4: taken over from much more experienced prosecutors, are at trial, 28 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 4: they are facing on the other side some of the 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 4: most experienced criminal defense lawyers, because that's who practices in 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 4: federal court, and that's going to jeopardize your conviction rates, 31 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 4: and you just do not want guilty people to go free. 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: The Justice Department is backtracking on assurances it made to 33 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: career attorneys they'd remain insulated from White House politics, and 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: they're transferring white collar prosecutors to this new division. 35 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 4: What's going on is that this is another policy that 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 4: comes out of the White House where they want to 37 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 4: focus on the government fraud and blue states. This is 38 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 4: the Minnesota public assistance scandal that is a real issue. 39 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 4: By the way, there is real fraud there, and they 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 4: want to lean into that by sending in more resources 41 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 4: to root out the fraud and prosecute it. Okay, but 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 4: they're doing so now by shifting people over from other 43 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 4: parts of the DOJ. These are some of the most 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 4: experienced white collar fraud prosecutors who end up getting lots 45 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 4: of money back for the government. These are people who 46 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 4: go after these wealthy individuals who believe that they're above 47 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 4: the law and they get a huge recovery. And instead 48 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 4: of going after those elites who managed not to pay 49 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: taxes or to find ways to go around the law, 50 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 4: now they're going to focus on the poorests who are 51 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 4: making advantage of government assistance. But you should be able 52 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 4: to do both at the same time. It's a shame 53 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 4: if you have to shift people over from divisions that 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 4: are working to help promote a political agenda, which is 55 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 4: to go and double down on the public assistance fraud 56 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 4: that it's just become such a big issue on the right. 57 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: So now, as far as the replacement for Bondie Lee Zelden, 58 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: the head of the EPA, has been mentioned, and you 59 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: talked about this before. It's the question of who can 60 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: Trump get through the Senate. You had Matt Gates that 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: was a no go, right, Zelden has already been approved 62 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: by the Senate for the EPA position. Do you think 63 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: Trump would be satisfied with Zelden. He's done what he 64 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: wants at the EPA. 65 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, But being Attorney General is different. At the EPA, 66 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 4: you don't have grand juries, you don't have jurors, you 67 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 4: don't have judges. You just make policy and then you 68 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 4: hope that they'll win in court. But those core ket 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 4: he says, take years. So right now these all of 70 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 4: them looks fine. He's doing Trump's bidding at the EPA. 71 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: I don't think that Zelden would satisfy Trump. I think 72 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 4: Trump wants someone who will burn the house down. He 73 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 4: wants to Matt Gates. Matt Gates won't get confirmed. He 74 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: wants Sidney Powell. Sidney Powell won't get confirmed. He wants 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 4: Rudy Giuliani. Rudy Jili won't get confirmed. So I think 76 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 4: then he's got to find someone who he thinks will 77 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 4: be loyal to him over everything else and can get confirmed. 78 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 4: Maybe Alena Habba watched for her. Todd Blanch seriously wants 79 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 4: this job, and he is making a big play for 80 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 4: the job. But Trump right now seems unconvinced. I think 81 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 4: Trump still thinks that Todd Blanche is too much on 82 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 4: Team Normal and he wants someone in the Roy Cohne mode. 83 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: So Todd Blanche has one hundred and twenty days before 84 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: he has to either exit that office or be nominated. 85 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: He's actually Twitter in ten days days. 86 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 2: Okay, I got it. 87 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: I just trans numbers. 88 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: So he has time to maybe try to prove himself. 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: So do you think he would get through a Senate 90 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: confirmation Todd Lynch. 91 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 4: I think would very likely get through a Senate confirmation, 92 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 4: But they're going to make sure if he's nominated or anyone, 93 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 4: it's going to be before November, because the Democrats could win 94 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 4: control of the Senate and then it's a game changer. 95 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: So watch for that. 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about that. Good point. Now let's turn 97 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: to the world of Trump's private litigation. Trump is asking 98 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: the New York state's highest court, which is the Court 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 2: of Appeals, unlike most states, which is the Supreme Court. 100 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: So we have it that the lowest court in New York, yes. 101 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: The Supreme Court, the Appellate Division, and then the Court 102 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: of Appeals. So he's asking the Court of Appeals to 103 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: vacate the judge's finding in that Letitia James case where 104 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: he was liable for inflating the value of his real estate. 105 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 2: And they've already gotten the Appellate Division to strike down 106 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: the four hundred and sixty four million dollar fraud penalty, 107 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: finding that it was unconstitutionally excessive, although it upheld the 108 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,679 Speaker 2: finding that he broke the law by inflating the value 109 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: of assets like Marl Lago. But enter Michael Cohen, his 110 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: former fixer again. 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 4: Well, Michael Cohen was an important witness in the Sister 112 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 4: James case against Donald Trump, and now Michael Cohen is 113 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 4: saying that his testimony was coerced. So he's being accused 114 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 4: politically of trying to get back into Trump world for 115 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,559 Speaker 4: whatever reason. And so that's a controverse and he's dealing 116 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 4: with that. But aside from that, from a legal standpoint, 117 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 4: he wasn't the reason in my mind that the judge, 118 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 4: Judge and Goron made the decision he did, because the 119 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 4: judge made it clear that there was amount of evidence 120 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 4: and he based it on a lot of the paperwork. 121 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 4: In fact, he gave some rejudgment, meaning a ruled for 122 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 4: the state early on in the case based on the 123 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: papers not based on Michael Cohen. So even if there 124 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 4: was something untowared by the prospers, and we don't know 125 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 4: if that's true, we haven't seen any evidence that other 126 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 4: than Michael Cohen now saying it, you could say it's 127 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 4: harmless error, that it's not what led to the verdict, 128 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 4: and thus the court would not overturn it finding of liability. 129 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: Right, And I remember when Michael Cohen was testifying, the 130 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 2: discussion was, well, can he be believed because he's flip 131 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: flopped and now he's flip flopping again. 132 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 4: In this sub stack, you'd have to show corroboration. You 133 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 4: have to show the internal records, and that's where the 134 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 4: judges could say, the sister James, produce all the internal 135 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 4: communications between you and Michael Cohen, and that would show 136 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 4: whether there was undue pressure there. 137 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. 138 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 4: I don't know what to think about it, but I 139 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 4: do know that Trump has already won because he was 140 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 4: able to eliminate the entire massive penalty that was imposed. 141 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 4: Now the findings the liability is still on the books, 142 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 4: So this is just essentially picking the bones. This is 143 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 4: just like Trump has already won and now he wants 144 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 4: everything else to go his way, just overturn the entire 145 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 4: ruling in the case. 146 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: You know, this shows you about money and the justice system, 147 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: because he has enough money to keep going back. You know, 148 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: another bite at the apple, another bite at the apple, 149 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: and we'll see what happens. 150 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 4: And he's got really good lawyers to do it. He 151 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: won at the Intermediate Court Appeals because it overturned the 152 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 4: massive judgment, and now he wants everything overturned. 153 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I still think it's an uphole client. 154 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: He wants it overturned because the New York Attorney General's 155 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: Office wants the New York Court of Appeals to reinstate 156 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: that nearly half billion dollar fraud verdict. So a win 157 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: here by the Court of Appeals would be like a 158 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: knockout punch. I guess, Dave. Let's turn from Trump and 159 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: the Justice Department for a minute and talk about the 160 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: Supreme Court. This actually surprised me. One Supreme Court justice 161 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 2: criticizing another. So, during a talk at the University of 162 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 2: Kansas Law School, Liberal Justice Sonya Sotomayor criticized Conserva Justice 163 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: Brett Kavanaugh, and she didn't name him, but it was 164 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: crystal clear who she was talking about quote. I had 165 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: a colleague in that case who wrote, you know, these 166 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: are only temporary stops, talking about the stops that Ice 167 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: was doing to check immigration status, and Justice Brett Kavanaugh 168 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: had written there, it's typically brief and they'll promptly go free, 169 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: and they've been called now Kavanaugh stops, and Justice Sodemayor said, quote, 170 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: this is from a man whose parents were professionals and 171 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: probably doesn't really know any person who works by the hour. 172 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: I mean, Supreme Court justices critique each other in their opinions, 173 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: but you don't often hear a justice. In fact, I 174 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: can't think of any other time where a justice has 175 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: criticized another justice so openly and so personally. 176 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 4: No, but we use the word unprecedented all the time. 177 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 4: Now it's our day and age where it is about 178 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 4: speaking out and taking shots at people and getting like 179 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 4: and clicks and attention. And I think that takes its 180 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 4: lead from the person at the top, Donald Trump. I mean, 181 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 4: that's his style, and so you're seeing people from all 182 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 4: walks of life. Is even Supreme Court justices emulate that, 183 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 4: leaving no holds barred, and so I think that it 184 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 4: is unusual for a different time, But today, should be 185 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 4: really be that surprised. 186 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder what happens at the next conference 187 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: the justices have, whether there is tension in the air. 188 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 5: Well. 189 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 4: This is something very personal to Justice Soda my Arm. 190 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 4: I mean, she's the first Hispanic on the Court, and 191 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 4: she sees that Trump's immigration policies have targeted Hispanics, and 192 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 4: in this one in particular, which allows Ice to go 193 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 4: and question and detain people solely because of race, because 194 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 4: of the language we're speaking, and she thought that this 195 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 4: would be unconstitutional to do so because they don't have problem, 196 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 4: cause they don't have any evidence that someone is undocumented 197 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 4: other than the language are speaking where they're hanging out 198 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 4: and their race. And Justice Kavanaugh had a concurring opinion 199 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 4: that offended not Justice Sodo my or, but others, especially 200 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 4: progressives who look tone deaf, where Justice Kavanaugh was saying, well, 201 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: you know, these are just temporary stops, and all you 202 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 4: have to do is just prove that they're not undocumented 203 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 4: and they're released, when in reality, it's a lot more 204 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 4: than that, and that's why people on the left call 205 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 4: them Kavanaugh stops to this day. So Justice Sonimar is 206 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 4: reflecting the sentiments the outrage on the left. 207 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, she and conservative Justice Amy Cony 208 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: Barrett would appear together. They made several joint appearances to 209 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: try to show, you know, collegiality and civil disagreement and 210 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: to promote public trust in the court. 211 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 4: Amy Coney Barrett's key the reason why you don't want 212 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 4: to mess with Amy Conebarrett because it's her court. This 213 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 4: is a Barrett justice Roberts Court, because they're the two 214 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: swing justices. See, Kavanaugh doesn't get that grace because he's 215 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 4: not a swing justice. He is seen as in the 216 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 4: can for Trump. So soy Mars is essentially saying it, 217 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 4: I'll take him on. I would bet that if it 218 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 4: was Amy Cony Barrett who had that concurrence, she wouldn't 219 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 4: be as quick to lash out at her. 220 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: You make an interesting point, Dave, Thanks so much for 221 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: joining me today. That's day Arenberg, former Palm Beach County 222 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: State Attorney, coming up next on The Bloomberg Law Show. 223 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: Some members of the mob who stormed the capitol on 224 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: January sixth are suing the government for millions of dollars, 225 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 2: claiming police officers who defended the capital that day were 226 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: using excessive force. Remember you can always get the latest 227 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: legal news by listening to our Bloomberg Law podcast. You 228 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg 229 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: dot com slash podcast Slash Law. I'm June Grosso and 230 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg. Here's how Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, 231 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: newly minted as the nation's top law enforcement officer, explained 232 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: the per of attorneys at the Justice Department. 233 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: You had prosecutors that were absolutely not doing the right thing, okay, 234 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: and so none of those prosecutors, I hope everybody agrees 235 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: that they shouldn't work here if you're not doing the 236 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: right thing. 237 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: To Blanche, prosecutors not doing the right thing means they 238 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: worked on the criminal investigations into President Trump. He failed 239 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 2: to mention that most prosecutors work on the cases they're 240 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: assigned to. I've been talking to Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm 241 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: Beach County State Attorney. 242 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 4: Dave. 243 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: I've seen different numbers, but thousands of prosecutors and FBI 244 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: agents have been fired or resigned since Trump's second term began. 245 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,599 Speaker 2: So you have inexperienced attorneys appearing in federal court or 246 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: attorneys who have experience in other areas. They have, for example, 247 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: they have military lawyers going in and doing immigration cases. 248 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 4: And it suffers because first you have judges who no 249 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 4: longer give so much deference to the Department of Justice. 250 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 4: That's a problem because these are really important cases. Federal 251 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 4: prosecutors bring important cases. These are cases involving national security, terrorism, 252 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 4: and if they start to lose credibility in the eyes 253 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 4: of the bench, then Katie bar the door. So you 254 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 4: have that, and then you have just the fact that 255 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 4: when these young, inexperienced prosecutors who have now taken over 256 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 4: from much more experienced prosecutors are at trial, they are 257 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 4: facing on the other side some of the most experienced 258 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 4: criminal defense lawyers, because that's who practices in federal court, 259 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 4: and that's going to jeopardize your conviction rates, and you 260 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 4: just do not want guilty people to go free. 261 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: The Justice Department is backtracking on assurances it made to 262 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: career attorneys they'd remain insulated from White House politics, and 263 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: they're transferring white collar prosecutors to this new division. 264 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 4: What's going on is that this is another policy that 265 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 4: comes out of the White House where they want to 266 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 4: focus on the government fraud and blue states. This is 267 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 4: the Minnesota public assistance scandal that is a real issue. 268 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 4: By the way, there is real fraud there and they 269 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 4: want to lean into that by sending in more resources 270 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 4: to root out the fraud and prosecute it. Okay, but 271 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 4: they're doing so now by shifting people over from other 272 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 4: parts of the DOJ. These are some of the most 273 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: experienced white collar fraud prosecutors who end up getting lots 274 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 4: of money back for the government. These are people who 275 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 4: go after these wealthy individuals who believe that they're above 276 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 4: the law and they get a huge recovery. And instead 277 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 4: of going after those elites who managed not to pay 278 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 4: taxes or to find ways to go around the law, 279 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 4: now they're going to focus on the poorests who are 280 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 4: taking advantage of government assistance. But you should be able 281 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 4: to do both at the same time. It's a shame 282 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 4: if you have to shift people over from divisions that 283 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 4: are working to help promote a political agenda, which is 284 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 4: to go and double down on the public assistance fraud 285 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 4: that it's just become such a big issue on the right. 286 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: So now, as far as the replacement for Bondie Lee Zelden, 287 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: the head of the EPA has been mentioned, and you 288 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: talked about this before. It's the question of who can 289 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: Trump get through the Senate. You had Matt Gates, that 290 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: was a no go, right, Zelden has already been approved 291 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: by the Senate for the EPA position. Do you think 292 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: Trump would be satisfied with Zelden. He's done what he 293 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: wants at the EPA. 294 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, But being Turney general is different. 295 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: At the EPA. 296 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 4: You don't have grand juries, you don't have jurors, you 297 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 4: don't have judges. You just make policy and then you 298 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 4: hope that the I'll win in court. But those court 299 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 4: cases take years. So right now these Aldam looks fine. 300 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 4: He's doing Trump's bidding at the EPA. I don't think 301 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 4: that Zelden would satisfy Trump. I think Trump wants someone 302 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 4: who will burn the house down. He wants to Matt Gates. 303 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 4: Matt Gates won't get confirmed. He wants Sidney Powell. Sidney 304 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 4: Powell won't get confirmed. He wants Ruby Giuliani. Rudy juli 305 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 4: won't get conf So I think then he's got to 306 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 4: find someone who thinks will be loyal to him over 307 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 4: everything else and can get confirmed. Maybe Alena Habit watch 308 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 4: for her. Todd Blanch seriously wants this job, and he 309 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 4: is making a big play for the job, but Trump 310 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 4: right now seems unconvinced. I think Trump still thinks that 311 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 4: Todd Blanche is too much on Team Normal and he 312 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 4: wants someone in the Roy Kohane mode. 313 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 2: So Todd Blanch has one hundred and twenty days before 314 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: he has to either exit that office or be nominated. 315 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: To He's actually turn ten days days. 316 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: Okay, I got it. I just numbers, so he has 317 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: time to maybe try to prove himself. So do you 318 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: think he would get through a Senate confirmation Todd Blanch. 319 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 4: I think would very likely get through a Senate confirmation. 320 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 4: But they're going to make sure if he's nominated or anyone, 321 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 4: it's going to before November because the Democrats could win 322 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 4: control of the Senate and then it's a game changer. 323 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: So watch for that. 324 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about that. Good point. Now let's turn 325 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: to the world of Trump's litigation. Trump is asking the 326 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: New York state's highest court, which is the Court of Appeals, 327 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: unlike most states, which is the Supreme Court. 328 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 1: So we have it that lowest court in New York. 329 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: Yes, the Supreme Court, the Appellate Division, and then the 330 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: Court of Appeals. So he's asking the Court of Appeals 331 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: to vacate the judge's finding in that Letitia James case 332 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 2: where he was liable for inflating the value of his 333 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: real estate. And they've already gotten the Appellate Division to 334 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: strike down the four hundred and sixty four million dollar 335 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: fraud penalty, finding that it was unconstitutionally excessive, although it 336 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 2: upheld the finding that he broke the law by inflating 337 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: the value of assets like Mara a Lago. But enter 338 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: Michael Cohen, his former fixer. 339 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 4: Again, well, Michael Cohen was an important witness in Letitia 340 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 4: James case against Donald Trump, and now Michael Cohen is 341 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 4: saying that his testimony was coerced. So he he's being 342 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 4: accused politically of trying to get back into Trump world 343 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 4: for whatever reason. And so that's a controversy and he's 344 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 4: dealing with that. But aside from that, from a legal standpoint, 345 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 4: he wasn't the reason in my mind that the judge, 346 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 4: Judge and Goron made the decision he did. Because the 347 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 4: judge made it clear that there was amount of evidence 348 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 4: and he based it on a lot of the paperwork. 349 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 4: In fact, he gave some rejudgment, meaning a ruled for 350 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 4: the state early on in the case, based on the papers, 351 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 4: not based on Michael Cohen. So even if there was 352 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 4: something untowared by the prospers, and we don't know if 353 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 4: that's true, we haven't seen any evidence that other than 354 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 4: Michael Cohen now saying it, you could say it's harmless error, 355 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 4: that it's not what led to the verdict, and thus 356 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 4: the court would not overturn it finding a liability right. 357 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: And I remember when Michael Cohen was testifying, the discussion was, 358 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 2: well can he be believed because he's flip flopped and 359 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: now he's flip flopp again. 360 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: In this sub stack, you'd have to show corroboration. 361 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 4: You have to show the internal records, and that's where 362 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 4: the judges could say, the sister James, produce all the 363 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 4: internal communications between you and Michael Cohen, and that would 364 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 4: show whether there was undue pressure there. 365 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: I don't know. 366 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 4: I don't know what to think about it, but I 367 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 4: do know that Trump has already won because he was 368 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 4: able to eliminate the entire massive penalty that was imposed. 369 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 4: Now the findings. The liability is still on the books, 370 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 4: so this is just essentially picking the bones. This is 371 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 4: just like Trump's already won and now he wants everything 372 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 4: else to go his way. Just overturn the entire ruling 373 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 4: in the case. 374 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: You know, this shows you about money and the justice system, 375 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: because he has enough money to keep going back. You know, 376 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 2: another bite at the apple, another bite at the apple, 377 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: and we'll see what happens. 378 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 4: And he's got really good lawyers to do it. He 379 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: won at the Intermediate Court of Appeals because it overturned 380 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 4: the massive judgment, and now he wants everything overturned. 381 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. I still think it's an uphole client. 382 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: He wants it overturned because the New York Attorney General's 383 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: Office wants the New York Court of Appeals to reinstate 384 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: that nearly half billion dollar fraud verdict. So a win 385 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: here by the Court of Appeals would be like a 386 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: knockout punch. I guess, Dave, let's turn from Trump and 387 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: the Justice Department for a minute and talk about the 388 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: Supreme Court. This actually surprised me. One Supreme Court justice 389 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: criticizing another. So, during a talk at the University of Kansas, 390 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: law school, Liberal Justice Sonya Sotomayor criticized conservative Justice Brett Cavanaugh, 391 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: and she didn't name him, but it was crystal clear 392 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 2: who she was talking about. Quote. I had a colleague 393 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: in that case who wrote, you know, these are only 394 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 2: temporary stops, talking about the stops that Ice was doing 395 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: to check immigration status, and Justice Brett Kavanaugh had written, 396 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 2: there's typically brief and they'll promptly go free, and they've 397 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: been called now Kavanaugh stops, and Justice Sodomayor said, quote, 398 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: this is from a man whose parents were professionals and 399 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: probably doesn't really know any person who works by the hour. 400 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: I mean, Supreme Court justice is critique each other in 401 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: their opinions, but you don't often hear a justice. In fact, 402 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: I can't think of any other time where a justice 403 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: has criticized another justice so openly and so personally. 404 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 4: No, but we use the word unprecedented all the time. 405 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 4: Now it's our day and age where it is about 406 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 4: speaking out and taking shots at people and getting likes 407 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 4: and clicks and attention. And I think that takes its 408 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 4: lead from the person at the top, Donald Trump. I 409 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 4: mean that's his style, and so you're seeing people from 410 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 4: all walks of life. Is even Supreme Court justices emulate that, 411 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 4: leaving no holds barred, And so I think that it 412 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 4: is unusual for a different time, but today should be 413 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 4: really that surprised. 414 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder what happens at the next conference 415 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: the justices have, whether there is tension in the air. Well. 416 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: This is something very personal to Justice Soda my Or. 417 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 4: I mean, she's the first Hispanic on the Court, and 418 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 4: she sees that Trump's immigration policies have targeted Hispanics, and 419 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 4: in this one in particular, which allows ICE to go 420 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 4: and question and detain people solely because of race, because 421 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 4: of the language we're speaking, And she thought that this 422 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 4: would be unconstitutional to do so because they don't have problem, 423 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 4: cause they don't have any evidence that someone is undocumented 424 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 4: other than the languages are speaking where they're hanging out 425 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 4: and their race. And Justice Kavanaugh had a concurring opinion 426 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 4: that offended not just Justice Soda my R, but others, 427 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: especially progressives who look tone deaf. Where Justice Kavanaugh was say, well, 428 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 4: you know, these are just temporary stops, and all you 429 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 4: have to do is just prove that they're not undocumented 430 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 4: and they're released when in reality, it's a lot more 431 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 4: than that, and that's why people on the left call 432 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 4: them Kavanaugh stops to this day, So Justice sodymer is 433 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 4: reflecting the sentiments the outrage on the left. 434 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, she and conservative Justice Amy Coney 435 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 2: Barrett would appear together. They made several joint appearances to 436 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: try to show, you know, collegiality and civil disagreement and 437 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 2: to promote public trust in the court. 438 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 4: Amy Coney Barrett's key the reason why you don't want 439 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 4: to mess with Amy Conebarrett because it's her court. This 440 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 4: is a Barrett justice Roberts court because of the two 441 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 4: swing justices. See, Kavanaugh doesn't get that grace because he's 442 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 4: not a swing justice. He is seen as in the 443 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 4: can for Trump. And so Sody Mars is essentially saying, ed, 444 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 4: I'll take him on. I would bet that if it 445 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 4: was Amy Coney Barrett who had that concurrence, she wouldn't 446 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 4: be as quick to lash out at her. 447 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: You make an interesting point, Dave, Thanks so much for 448 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: joining me today. That's day the Arenberg, former Palm Beach 449 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: County State attorney. Coming up next on The Bloomberg Law Show. 450 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 2: Some members of the mob who stormed the capital on 451 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: January sixth are suing the government for millions of dollars, 452 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 2: claiming police officers who defended the capitol that day were 453 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: using excessive force. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. 454 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: Some members of the mob who stormed the capital on 455 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: January sixth are now suing the federal government asking for 456 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: about eighteen million dollars in damages. They claim they suffered 457 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 2: physical and emotional injuries from the indiscriminate use of force 458 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: by the police officers who defended the capitol that day. 459 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: The lead plaintiff in this proposed class action is aj Fisher, 460 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 2: who was charged with assault before his case was erased 461 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: by the blanket pardon from President Donald Trump. It will 462 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: be up to the Justice Department to decide whether to 463 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: fight the case or settle it. Last summer, the Department 464 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 2: agreed to pay out five million dollars to the family 465 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: of Ashley Babbitt, a January sixth rioter who was shot 466 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 2: and killed by police as she tried to enter the 467 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 2: Speaker's lobby. Joining me is Dennis Fann, a professor at 468 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: Columbia Law School and a former prosecutor at the Justice Department, Dennis, 469 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 2: this isn't the only suit where people in the January 470 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: sixth mob are trying to recover money. 471 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 5: Well, there's been definitely multiple instances of you know, trying 472 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 5: to sue the United States for damages. This class action 473 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 5: is one of those, is probably the most recent one. 474 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 5: Most notably Donald Trump. Also there's reports that he filed 475 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 5: an FTCA administrative claim to get something along the lines 476 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 5: of people think it's like two hundred and thirty million 477 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 5: dollars or something from the government. I think this has 478 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 5: been sort of and parcel of what these January six 479 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 5: riders have been thinking about. There are, of course a 480 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 5: lot of individuals at January Thats who participated in it, 481 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 5: and many of them, now that they've been pardoned or 482 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 5: had their senses commuted, are kind of coming back and saying, actually, 483 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 5: we are we were the good guys in this whole thing, 484 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 5: and it is a police that assaulted us, not the 485 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 5: other way around. 486 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 2: So they're trying to rewrite history basically. 487 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think they're trying to rewrite history. 488 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 5: I think that's probably the best way to think about it, right. 489 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 5: I mean, the current president and one of the first 490 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 5: things he did was to blanket part in all of 491 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 5: these individuals, regardless of how violent they were, regardless of 492 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 5: what kind of intent that they had. And that wasn't 493 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 5: just to get them out of jail. It was to 494 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 5: make it seem like they really were not culpable, that 495 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 5: they had no culpability, that they were on the right 496 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 5: side of things. And it's a really kind of cynical 497 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 5: way for your bedding history where you know, people often 498 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 5: joke with the winner's write history, but that's truly what's 499 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 5: happening is that they feel like, because they want an election, 500 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 5: they hold the keys to the truth that they were 501 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 5: they were right about everything, but you know, you can 502 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 5: both win an election and I could be wrong about 503 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 5: the January sixth ride and the insurrection. 504 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: Tell us more about their claims. 505 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, So the claim is one under the Special Torque 506 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 5: Claims Act, and that PCA is just a broad statute 507 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 5: you might think of. You know, normally, when you get 508 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 5: into a car crash with somebody, right like, you have 509 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 5: a you have a torque claim and you can see 510 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 5: them in torque. And what the Federal trit claim back 511 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 5: does is it lets you bring tort actions against federal 512 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 5: officers it's a federal officer, you know, a postal truck 513 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 5: to hit you with their car or hit your car, 514 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 5: you would you bring an FPCA claim, you'd islo it 515 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 5: administrative claim first with the government. The government would either 516 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 5: act on that or not and kind of pay you 517 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 5: out or designed not to. And then if they didn't, 518 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 5: you would file a case in court under the FTCA. 519 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 5: It'd be just like any other kind of court case. 520 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 5: And so these these individuals are claiming that, you know, 521 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 5: the officers or negligence officers also intentionally kind of use 522 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 5: excessive force. You know, usually what happens in all of 523 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 5: these things is the main defense, or one of the 524 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 5: main defenses, is that the government says what we were 525 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 5: doing was discretionary. Right, There's something called the discretionary function exception. 526 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 5: This is way down in the weeds of the law, 527 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 5: but what it means is if it's something where the 528 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 5: government had some discretion, where officers didn't have an exact 529 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 5: white look, then that's a complete defense to a tort diction. 530 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 5: So you know, this might come up when you have 531 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 5: park rangers who are fighting a so you know, fire 532 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 5: burns down a bunch of things. You say, well, the 533 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 5: park rangers were totally negligent. And you know, the park 534 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 5: rangers are going to come in court and they're going 535 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 5: to say, oh, look, there's not really exactly a playbook 536 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 5: on how you find a fire. Sometimes you start on 537 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 5: this side, sometimes you start on that side. Sometimes you 538 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 5: kind of let things burn for a little bit, to 539 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 5: let the fire kind of burn out. Other Times, you know, 540 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 5: you try to throw some sand over the area. Other 541 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 5: times you kind of send in a whole bunch of individuals. 542 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 5: Sometimes you don't send in that many, and there's a 543 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 5: whole variety of choices, and there's not an exact line 544 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 5: by line playbook of what should happen, and so the 545 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 5: discretionary function, exception well almost always in those cases kind 546 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 5: of kick out it towards you. I mean, that's like 547 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 5: probably what you would think of is the right results 548 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 5: here is you know, there's not really a playbook for 549 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 5: the Capitol police where when it's like where there wasn't 550 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 5: Maybe there is now, but back then there wasn't really 551 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,959 Speaker 5: a playbook of like what happens when as a violent 552 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 5: mob drives to overturnment election, Like the what is like 553 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 5: step one and step two and step three of what 554 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 5: you're supposed to do, and that as usually is a defense. 555 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: Do you think this case will survive to a trial 556 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: or will it be dismissed beforehand? 557 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 5: I don't think the hope here is that they're going 558 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 5: to litigate this to judgment. They're going to kind of 559 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 5: finish the lawsuit and a judge or a jury is 560 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 5: going to rule on the case, and that they're going 561 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 5: to get to win. I think they're hoping is that 562 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 5: they're going to get settlement out of it. I think 563 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 5: they're taking their cues and they have maybe it's a 564 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 5: real view of or kind of a real estue of 565 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 5: what the Department of Justice currently is like. Maybe it's 566 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 5: a highly politicized or cynic will view of what the 567 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 5: Department of Justice is like. But I think their hope 568 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 5: is that they're going to bring this lawsuits and then 569 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 5: somebody at DOJ just because they why not settle this 570 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 5: with them? 571 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: I mean, there's precedent for that, right. We had the 572 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: Ashley Babbitt settlement for what five million dollars and Michael Flynn, 573 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: the former National security advisor who had pled guilty at 574 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: one point, he got more than a million dollars. I 575 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 2: mean the Justice Department can just settle these lawsuits right 576 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: without any authorization from a judge or anything like that. 577 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, depending on how much money it is, 578 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 5: they can go up to different chains. If I last 579 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 5: remember correctly, it's like like four million dollars or something, 580 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 5: the head of the Civil Division can settle that. But 581 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 5: if it's like over that, then you know, the Attorney 582 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 5: General has to personally sign off on it, which kind 583 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 5: of raises a whole set of questions if these individuals 584 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 5: were individuals who might have us engaged in criminal conduct. 585 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 5: But yeah, they could sign off on it. You don't 586 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 5: really I mean these settlements, you don't really have an 587 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 5: ability to come We're kind of a strong ability to 588 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 5: come in and object to them. So that's the real 589 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 5: danger of it. And I think you're right with the 590 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 5: the David example and the microplane example. They raised the 591 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 5: kind of a whole host of issues about how the 592 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 5: government has been using its authority to settle these types 593 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 5: of cases. I mean, just to say this bluntly, but 594 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 5: like you know, actually data of course, like died in 595 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 5: the attack issue a shot, these individuals are nowhere close 596 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 5: to that life like they were kind of by all 597 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 5: accounts subject to what you would think of as like 598 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 5: ordinary crowd control tactics. They weren't subject to things that 599 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 5: are Do you think of it as or nearly an 600 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 5: excessive force, right? 601 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: I mean, it's stunning to me that they're bringing a 602 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 2: case like this and just trying to rewrite history. 603 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 5: I mean, it's expending that they're rewriting history to their 604 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 5: they're rewriting their own history. And their history was that 605 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 5: the Capitol police loved them and that they you know, 606 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 5: ushered them in that they were complete fans of these people. 607 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 5: They were giving them tours, totally happy to have all 608 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 5: these insurrectionist of the capital. And now they're saying, well, no, no, no, 609 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 5: they actually the Capital Beliefs were the ones using access 610 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 5: before that they were kind of antagonistic to these individuals. 611 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 5: And you're like, well, you know, which which way was it? 612 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 5: Is it that they saw you as kind of in 613 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 5: directionists or is that they saw you as kind of 614 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 5: friendly visitors? Were you innocent? Were you not a scammed 615 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 5: through the names? But like, there are a number of 616 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 5: these individuals who were members of the Broad Boys that right, 617 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 5: and who were kind of charged as such. I think 618 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 5: they can't even get their own sort of historical narrative right, 619 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,959 Speaker 5: and they're they're using it selectively when it helps them. 620 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: It will be very interesting to see if the Justice 621 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: Department decides to settle this case. Thanks for joining me 622 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: on the show. That's Professor Dennis Fan of Columbia Law School, 623 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 2: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. 624 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 625 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 626 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, 627 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 2: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 628 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 629 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg