1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 2: In the criminal justice system, landmark trials transcend the courtroom 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: to reshape the law. The brave many women who investigate 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: and prosecute these cases are part of a select group 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: that is defined American history. These are their stories. December sixteenth, 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, Midtown, Manhattan. 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 3: The bullets that ended Big Paul Castellano's life last night 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: may very well have been a payoff for getting into 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 3: such trouble with the Feds. 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 4: I was there that night, the night that he was murdered. 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: Former FBI agent Jim Kostler was meeting with Bob Blakey 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: and Rudy Giuliani at an event at NYU. The topic 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: of conversation the biggest criminal trial against organized crime. I'm 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: in New York City history. 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 4: We were having the cocktails and it was all kinds 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 4: of brass from the NYPD and various district attorney's offices there, 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 4: and all of a sudden. 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 5: Bells go off and beepers go off. I get it called. 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 4: You know, Costellano has been murdered up at the Sparks Steakhouse. 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: Paul Castellano was the reputed boss of the Gambino crime 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: family and one of the most important defendants in the 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: upcoming case against the mob. 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 4: So I grabbed my boss and we get in the 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: car and we go up there. We missed the dinner. 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 4: We were right there in the thick of things. Whenever 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 4: the bodies were still laying on the street. Tommy Billotti 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 4: was laying out in the middle of the street. Castellana 29 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 4: was laying with his head down in the gutter right 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 4: next to the car. People everywhere, because you know, it 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 4: was at five o'clock at night and people were going home. 32 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 4: It was chaos. 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: As the reputed head of the crime Commission and the 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: godfather of the Gambino family, his appearance in court every 35 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: day and the preoccupation with his defense were bad for business. 36 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: Yes, the evidence accumulated against Castellano was a lynchpin in 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the government's case, but his murder might turn it all 38 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: upside down. 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 5: You're not with the mob because you want to be. 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 6: It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated. 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 7: On if you like your life, you will vote to acquit. 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm anisee and Nicolazzi, my father should have been a 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: dead man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. This is 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: Law and Order criminal justice system. It had taken years 45 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: to assemble the case against the Commission. Now, just months 46 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: before the trial was set to begin, a key defendant, 47 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: Paul Castellano, had been gunned down in the street, a 48 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: stark reminder of the high stay for both the criminals 49 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: and those prosecuting their crimes. Paul Castellano and his newly 50 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: appointed underboss, Thomas Bollotti, had just pulled up in front 51 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: of Sparks Steakhouse for dinner. They were about to get 52 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: out of their car when assassins opened fire from close range, 53 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: killing both Castellano and Ballotti. 54 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 8: And obviously that ended his participation in the trial. 55 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: Michael Cherdoff was the lead prosecutor, just thirty two years 56 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: old at the time and facing off against the most 57 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: infamous figures in organized crime. Michael immediately knew the effect 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: Castellano's murder could have on their case. There were mountains 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: of evidence connecting the Gambino boss to the wider criminal 60 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: enterprise of the Commission, but all that evidence was now 61 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: potentially out the window. The prosecution needed to regroup and fast. 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 8: We had to really make sure that we kicked the 63 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 8: tires on everything and it was all solid, and that 64 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 8: kind of nervousness and anxiety is a great motivator in 65 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 8: terms of making sure you are doubling down on how 66 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 8: careful and how meticulous you are in both the factual 67 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 8: and illegal construction of the case. 68 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: There were three main goals in this trial, and it 69 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be easy. One prove that the Mafia 70 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: and the Commission existed in the first place. Remember, for decades, 71 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: members of organized crime had dismissed the Mafia as a myth, 72 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: but now Michael had the receipts in the form of 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: wire tabs and testimony from cooperating witnesses. Two, Michael and 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: his young team of attorneys had to prove it the 75 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: remaining defendants, including Fat Tony Salerno, Tony Dux, Carlo Carmine Persico, 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: and some of their underlings, were indeed members of the 77 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: Mob's governing body, or that they conspired to carry out 78 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: its orders. And three, that their illegal influence included the 79 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: control of major industries like concrete, construction and sanitation. Owen 80 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: one more thing, to prove the Commission conspired to murder 81 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: fellow mob boss Carmen Gallanti. Taken together, it was a 82 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: massive undertaking, especially considering that there was no one on 83 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: the prosecution team over the age of thirty two, and 84 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: they were up against the elder statesman of the mafia 85 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: crime bosses that had collectively spent over one hundred and 86 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: fifty years in organized crime. But as Michael explains, they 87 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: had assembled mounds of damning evidence. 88 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 8: We had witnesses, including a couple of contractors who had 89 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 8: paid the mob because they were required to, and they 90 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 8: kind of put a human face on what this was. 91 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 8: We had the tapes which had very explicit discussions about 92 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 8: shaking down contractors and getting money for concrete projects. We 93 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 8: also had a former boss of the Cleveland La co 94 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 8: Osnostra family named Angelo Leonardo, who had been convicted in 95 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 8: another case years before it had turned state's evidence and 96 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 8: was cooperating with us. So we had multiple levels of evidence, 97 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 8: and by tying them all together and showing how they 98 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 8: cross referenced, that gives you a good measure of credibility. 99 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: But as Paul Castelano's murder proved, there were no guarantees. 100 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 8: Well, you're most nervous about are the witnesses. Are the 101 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 8: witnesses going to wind up being able to tell a 102 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 8: coherent story? Are they going to wither under cross examination? 103 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 8: Are they going to be able to stand up? 104 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: And are they even going to stay alive long enough 105 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: to testify? 106 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 6: Virtually no one who wanted to be a witness in 107 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 6: this case, as you can imagine. 108 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: That's Attorney Gil Childers, the Brooklyn prosecutor that had been 109 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: called in to help try some of the world's most 110 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: dangerous gangsters. 111 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 6: Even if it's the most innocuous testimony, who wants to 112 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 6: possibly get any of these people mad at you? There 113 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 6: was a lot of hand holding, a lot of cajoling, 114 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 6: a lot of pushing people to get them to testify 115 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 6: and make them understand that, you know, look, we can 116 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 6: do what we can to partake you, but you don't 117 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 6: really have a choice here. 118 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: For years, the mob had used intimidation and violence to 119 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: keep witnesses out of the courtroom and themselves out of jail. 120 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 1: But the government was ready to flex their muscles as well. 121 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: And while young, the prosecutors were a virtual dream team 122 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: of talent. Here's John Savay's. 123 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 5: Michael was the most senior person, and it was therefore 124 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 5: pretty well understood that he would make the opening statement 125 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 5: on behalf of the government. 126 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: John knew that Michael Chertoff would set a clear tone 127 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: and that no matter the experience or reach of the defendants, 128 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: prosecutors would not be intimidated. Only thirty one, John was 129 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: already an accomplished Harvard law graduate and a former clerk 130 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: to a Supreme Court justice, a clear up and comer 131 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: in the US Attorney's office, and Giuliani was confident he'd 132 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: be a strong addition to this team. The third in 133 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: their trio guild Childers. He had the trial experience needed 134 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: and would round out the team. 135 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 5: He brought to the table something that Michael and I 136 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 5: did not have, which is all of the forensics and 137 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 5: expertise around the triple murder that was a chief part 138 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 5: of the case. 139 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 6: I certainly had a tremendous advantage and luxury of having 140 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 6: two great lawyers who were very steeped in federal criminal 141 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 6: practice being my teammates. But when you're examining a witness, 142 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 6: you're up there, I'll say. 143 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: Alone, alone except for the alleged mobsters steering a hole 144 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: in his back and the scores of press outside the 145 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: courtroom that would be reporting on the trials every move. 146 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: For the young prosecutors, it would be a baptism by fire. 147 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 6: This is the most important organized crime case arguably ever. 148 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 6: You certainly didn't want to be known as the three 149 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 6: guys who let the mob get off. 150 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: John had similar apprehensions, but he was also aware of 151 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: the unique opportunity. 152 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 5: We knew we were young. None of us had been 153 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 5: a prosecutor all that long, and there were moments where 154 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 5: we would, the three of us, we'd look at each 155 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 5: other and sort of feel like, I have to pinch 156 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 5: myself that we're actually getting to do this. 157 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: This case could make or break their young careers, not 158 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: to mention the career of their ambitious boss, Rudy Giuliani, 159 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: who was staking his inevitable run for the Mayor's office 160 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: on his promised takedown of the New York Mob. 161 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 5: And as the trial got closer and closer, that feeling 162 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 5: was very strong. But at the same time, we were 163 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 5: also working just ferociously hard. I mean just months and 164 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 5: months and months of seven day weeks, with each day 165 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 5: being fifteen sixteen hours low. 166 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 8: You know, you know the stakes, You're high, You're really 167 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 8: operating on adrenaline and will power to make sure you 168 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 8: are focused, because important than you want to make sure 169 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 8: is you don't want to make any mistakes. Somebody you 170 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 8: could undermine the case, factually or legally, so you have 171 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 8: to have your wits about you. 172 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: Michael Chertoff, Guild Childers, and John Savay's ready to take 173 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: on the challenge. But what about the risks? As the 174 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: murder of Castellano proved, even the bosses weren't immune from danger, 175 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: And do you know who else had caused for concern 176 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: members of the jury. As you might recall from our 177 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: first episode, in a previous trial against Banano boss Carmi Galanti, 178 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: one jury format was thrown down a flight of stairs, 179 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: resulting in a mistrial. Prosecutors knew it would be tough 180 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: to convince the jury to serve in a trial against 181 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: the city's most ruthless criminals. 182 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 9: They may turn out to be the biggest series of 183 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 9: mob trials in US history, but first the trials have 184 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 9: to begin, and what's slowing that process down is the 185 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 9: actual selection of the jury itself. Over three thousand potential 186 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 9: jurors have been called by the government, more than four 187 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 9: times the usual number. The US Attorney also asked for 188 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 9: and got anonymity for the jury, saying he feared the 189 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,359 Speaker 9: mob would try to get to them. 190 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: As a rule, trial juries are not secret. Attorneys review 191 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: potential jurors names, occupations, and backgrounds to try and eliminate 192 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: potential bias. But his Gil Childers explains this case and 193 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: these particular defendants called for extraordinary measures. 194 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:47,479 Speaker 10: The legal justification for anonymous jury really is concerning the press. 195 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 3: Very frankly, the judges instructed the jury that the reason 196 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 3: they're being pictononymously. 197 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 11: Is that he's concerned about the media trying to interview 198 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 11: them during the course of the trial. 199 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: But there was also the uncle spoken reason of juror 200 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: safety from potential bribery, coercion, or even violence. 201 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 10: Certainly, you can't tell the jury that the reason we're 202 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 10: holding your names from the public is because these guys 203 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 10: may try. 204 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 5: And kill you. 205 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: After jury selection, their safety became a top priority for 206 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: the federal government. 207 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 10: The US Marshall Service would take them all and drop 208 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 10: them off in one or two points of a transportation access, 209 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 10: so they'd take them to the Grand Central or Defend 210 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 10: station or a Porterfari bus terminal. Places where they did that, 211 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 10: they would be melting in with folks, and it would 212 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 10: be difficult to try and trace someone going home. 213 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: But as the trial was said to begin, the security 214 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: of everyone involved was just one of many challenges, because 215 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: the government's all star team of young prosecutors weren't the 216 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: only ones preparing for battle. Just as they'd been doing 217 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: for over a century. The Five Families were prepared to 218 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: do anything to protect their criminal kingdoms, and they weren't 219 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: going down without a fight. On September eighth, nineteen eighty six, 220 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: the Commission trial began. 221 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 12: Federal government says, if you want to know about the 222 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 12: mob and its rackets and shakedowns and robots, you should 223 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 12: ask a handful of men known as the Commission. They're 224 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 12: on trial starting today in a Brooklyn courtroom. 225 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 13: The cast of the Commission trial three alleged bosses of 226 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 13: organized crime families Anthony Tony Ducks Corlo of the Lukeesi 227 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 13: crime family, Anthony fat Toni Slano of the Genevese family, 228 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 13: and Carmine the Snake Persico, who allegedly runs the Columbo 229 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 13: crime empire. This is the first time the ruling Commission 230 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 13: has been put on trial. 231 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: On the steps of the Manhattan Federal Courthouse, swarms of 232 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: report and cameras waited and watched as each car pulled 233 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: up one after another, the defendants arrived. Their names and 234 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: reputations had been whispered about for years, but this was 235 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: the first time many in the public had ever laid 236 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: eyes on some of the most notorious figures in the 237 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: New York underworld. The defendants slipped out of their cars 238 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: and quickly moved up the steps, their lawyers and bodyguards 239 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: keeping away the press. Inside the courtroom was a scene 240 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: for the history books. Mafia bosses, their underbosses, and all 241 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: manner of minions, soldiers and enforcers assembled in one room, 242 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: and predictably, most of them were dressed to the nines. 243 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: Here's Gil Childers. 244 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 6: The younger guys were coming in like Valentino suits, tie 245 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 6: bars and gorgeous ties and pocket squares. Then you had 246 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 6: Thatt Tony Soleardo, who would be in a sportcoat, collared 247 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 6: shirt buttoned all the way to the top, no tie. 248 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 6: You know, when he was outside, he'd have this little 249 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 6: for Dora on. 250 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: For a public well acquainted with the mafia from the 251 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Godfather movies, The defendant's appearances were often as intriguing as 252 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: the case itself. After all, the slick suited image of 253 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: the Hollywood mafio so was a lasting part of pop culture, 254 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: and the stars of this trial did not disappoint their audience. 255 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 6: In the Daily News and the New York Post, they 256 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 6: actually had a mob fashion column talking about how the 257 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 6: mob guys were dressed. We're trying these guys because they 258 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 6: extort people. They're filled with violence, they murder people. And 259 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 6: the newspapers are talking about what color suit they were wearing. 260 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 6: Did the tie really matched the suit, and did the 261 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 6: shoes and socks go with a suit? It was weird. 262 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,479 Speaker 14: The baggy eyed man in the suit is Carmine Junior Persico, 263 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 14: and the camera shine man in the handcuffs is Anthony. 264 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 14: They may look like grandfathers, but I says they are 265 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 14: godfathers on trial for being members of the Mafiast ruling Council, 266 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:06,479 Speaker 14: the Commission. 267 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: The courtroom was full to the brim. The young prosecutors 268 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: had never seen anything like it. 269 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 5: Well. The case attracted a huge amount of press attention, 270 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 5: and when the trial was first getting underway, the courtroom 271 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 5: was absolutely packed with spectators and a lot of press, 272 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 5: and that obviously creates a kind of electric atmosphere in 273 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 5: a courtroom. It was being conducted in one of the 274 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 5: large ceremonial courtrooms. My recollection of day one was walking 275 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 5: in and realizing we were going to be putting on 276 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 5: this trial in front of a very large audience. 277 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: For Gill and the rest of the team, it was 278 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: by far the biggest case any of them had ever handled. 279 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: Their every move and every possible mistake would be broadcast 280 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: to the watching world. 281 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 6: There were daily press reports. Frequently, there was television news coverage. 282 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 6: You know that if you screw up, your name's going 283 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 6: to be in the paper for a bad reason the 284 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 6: next day. 285 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: Michael Chertoff would be the first one to take center stage. 286 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: On the morning of September eighteenth, nineteen eighty six, he 287 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: addressed the jury to give his opening statement. 288 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 8: In some ways, it's so consequential that you don't have 289 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 8: time to be nervous, to think about yourself. You're just 290 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 8: thinking about how do I present this to the jury 291 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 8: in a way that is understandable, that covers a significant 292 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 8: amount of evidence, it doesn't bog down in detail. And 293 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 8: also to make it clear what the stakes are, that 294 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 8: this is not just a routine case, but that you're 295 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 8: talking about the board of directors of the American Mafia, 296 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 8: the largest criminal organization in American history. 297 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: The prosecution intended to prove that the Commission was a 298 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: criminal enterprise and that each defendant committed multiple acts of racketeering. 299 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 8: I told you early on in my opening, this is 300 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 8: the largest and most vicious criminal business in the history 301 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 8: of the United States. And I went on to say 302 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 8: the Commission was dominated by a single principle, greed. And 303 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 8: I think those two statements from my opening Encapsuley what 304 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 8: the nature of the Commission and the American Mafia was. 305 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 15: In his opening remarks, Federal Prosecutor Michael Chertoff told the 306 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 15: jury that the Commission has been the governing body of 307 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 15: the Mafia all a cost in Austra for the last 308 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 15: thirty years. He said that on a government audio tape 309 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 15: fact Tony Solano describes a Commission as a sacred thing. 310 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: Michael made it clear that the Mafia had a devastating 311 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: impact on the lives and livelihoods of everyday citizens. 312 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 15: He said Commission members rule over mafia activities, particularly the 313 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 15: concrete industry, with the power of an iron fist covered 314 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 15: by a velvet glove, and he says he has video 315 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 15: and audio tapes to prove it. He says, unlike TV 316 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 15: and the movies, their threats to extort money are subtle 317 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 15: and unpleasant. 318 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: But just like in the movies, their methods were cruel, ruthless, 319 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: and often deadly. After Michael delivered his opening statement, it 320 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: was the defense's turn, and defense attorney Samuel Dawson did 321 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: something that no one in the courtroom ever saw coming. 322 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 16: In an unusual move, one of the defense attorneys admits 323 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 16: all of the defendants in this case are members of 324 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 16: the mafia. 325 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: In an effort to undermine one of the prosecution's main arguments, 326 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: the defense launched a preemptive attack. He admitted to the 327 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: packed courtroom that the mafia did exist. Here's the defense 328 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: attorney speaking to reporters. 329 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 11: We've told the jury that people are members of it. 330 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 11: But just as you heard me say, each one of 331 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 11: those jurors coming to this courtroom with all the beliefs, impressions, 332 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 11: or opinions about the mafia or whatever they think it is, 333 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 11: they pledged to us that they would put that side 334 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 11: and decide whether these men from the mafia in this 335 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 11: case did the crimes charged in this. 336 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: Case Dawson even confirmed the existence of the Commission and 337 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: its role as the mafia's governing body. However, he denied 338 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: a conspire to extort the concrete industry, claiming instead that 339 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: its function was to approve new members and settle disputes. 340 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: Former FBI agent Charlotte Lang remembers the shock they all 341 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: felt as he delivered his statement. 342 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 7: I can remember looking at your top. His mouth was 343 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 7: wide open, and we were like, are you kidding me? 344 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 7: Because we had such excellent evidence that there was such 345 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 7: a thing as the Commission In Organized. 346 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: Crime, John Savaye remembers thinking that the defense's daring strategy 347 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: was a smart play for a savvy jury. 348 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 5: It was obviously a bold move on that lawyer's part, 349 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 5: but I certainly understand the stratug He made the tactical judgment, 350 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 5: I'm not going to try to eat up my credibility 351 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 5: with the jury by contesting something that's going to seem 352 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 5: so obvious to the jury. By the end of this trial. 353 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: The next big surprise when one of the defendants, Carmin Persico, 354 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: decided he would forego a defense attorney and represent himself 355 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: in the biggest trial of his life. 356 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 15: Carmine the Snake Persicoe, alleged boss of a Colombo crime family, 357 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 15: acting as his own attorney, stood to address the jury. 358 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 15: He approached the jury box, took off his glasses, smiled, 359 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 15: and said, my name is Carmin Persicoe. I am not 360 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 15: a lawyer, he said, I'm a defendant. The government has 361 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 15: to prove I'm guilty. He mock anticipated government witnesses against him. 362 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 15: Referring to paid informants, he said they have contracts with 363 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 15: the government. Looking at the jury, he said the government 364 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 15: pays for them with your money and my freedom. 365 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: Persico spoke to the jury with a mix of indignate 366 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: and folksy street charm, saying he intended to undermine the 367 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: government's case by exposing an alleged bias, corruption, and illegal 368 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: investigative methods. Here's Michael Carmine. 369 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 8: Perscoe was the one who was the most personally antagonistic. 370 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 8: Persco would occasionally demonstrate his anger or his disdain. 371 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: There's an old saying about the defendant who represents himself 372 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: in court that he has a fool for a client. 373 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: But in cases as meticulously prepared as this one, no 374 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: surprise is a good surprise, and managing a wild card 375 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 1: like Carmine Persico would keep prosecutors on their toes again 376 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: and again. They would have to rely on their biggest, 377 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: most effective weapon, the evidence, witness, testimony, surveillance, and especially 378 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: recorded wiretaps, and they would start with the classic that 379 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: dated all the way back to nineteen fifty seven, the 380 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: infamous Appalachan Commission meet. You may remember that the Appalachan 381 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: Meeting in upstate New York was a historic summit of 382 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: organized crime bosses. Law enforcement broke it up, sending Vito Genevi's, 383 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: Carlo Gambino and Paul Castelano running through the woods. 384 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 6: Of course, it caused a lot of belly aching from 385 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 6: defense council. Who cares what happened in nineteen fifty seven? 386 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 6: Is that what they're charged with? And of course the 387 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 6: answer to that is yes, they are charged for that 388 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 6: because they're part of this enterprise, and this enterprise existed 389 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 6: back then as. 390 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: Well, as Michael explains. The prosecution then presented the hours 391 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: and hours of wiretap audio in which mob members referenced 392 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: the commissionssion. 393 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 8: Both on the tapes in the Palma Boy Social Club 394 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 8: and the tapes in the Jaguars. They use the word 395 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 8: the Commission they talked about the Commission. The Commission has 396 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 8: decided the Commission's decide that so there was no question 397 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 8: that the Commission existed. 398 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: None was more significant than the jaguar bug, which overheard 399 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: damning conversations between Tony Ducks, Caralo, and a lou Casey 400 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: family capo named Salvator Avelino. 401 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 14: For years, the FBI has been watching and listening to 402 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 14: the mob street corner meetings from a bug installed under 403 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 14: the dashboard of Coralo's Jaguar. They heard Tony Ducks complain 404 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 14: about family members who sell drugs, then talk business. 405 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 7: Would out selfless second child. 406 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 8: So Avelino was, in a way like an answering machine 407 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 8: who recorded messages to be given to the other leader 408 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 8: of the family. The result of this is again you 409 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 8: had a very detailed description when Avelino talked to either 410 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 8: Coralo or Soalerno about what their illegal businesses were. 411 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: The hours of recorded surveillance was hard to refute, but 412 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: it could also be a challenge for a jury to 413 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: absorb in process, and a trial can be a fight 414 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: for a jury sympathy and attention as much as a 415 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: fight for the facts, which is why presenting a live 416 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: witness became so critical to the prosecution's case because at 417 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: the end of the day, a jury loves to hear 418 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: it straight from the source. Enter Angelo Leonardo, the Cleveland 419 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: crime boss, had been serving a life sentence plus one 420 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: hundred and three years when he offered to testify against 421 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: his fellow mobsters. In exchange, he'd be given a reduced 422 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: sentence and a life in the witness protection program. In 423 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: the courtroom, Leonardo laid out the inner workings of the Commission, 424 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: and according to Charlotte Lang, his testimony was pivotal. 425 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 7: He was basically saying, these are the heads of organized crime, 426 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 7: and it's called the Commission. Yeah, the associates, Yeah, soldiers. 427 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 7: He was basically laying it out for the jury. 428 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: His nearly sixty year criminal career and heavy Sicilian accent 429 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: only added to his authenticity, and his testimony had jurors 430 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: on the edge of their seat. Here was one of 431 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: the mafia's own testifying under clear threat to his life 432 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: against one of the deadliest criminal organizations in the world, and. 433 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 7: The signal was kind of interesting about him. He kind 434 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 7: of looked like Aristotle Anassis, and he wore dark glasses, 435 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 7: had this full head of gray hair. He just looked 436 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 7: like a mob boss. He sounded like a mob boss, 437 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 7: and the jury was like hanging on every word he 438 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 7: was saying. 439 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: Leonardo explained to a rapt jury that in order to 440 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: sanction a hit on a mob boss, you needed approval 441 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: from all the families. During cross examination, Salerno's attorney grilled 442 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: Leonardo about his claims, and more importantly, tried to raise 443 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: doubts about the credibility of a convicted drug trafficker and 444 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: admitted career criminal, especially one who had betrayed his fellow 445 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: mobsters in exchange for his freedom and a new identity. 446 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: The fury from the defendant's table was palpable, and the 447 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: threat to Lenardo's safety did not have to be spoken 448 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: aloud to be clear to everyone in the courtroom. 449 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 6: You're dealing with a different animal. I'm not suggesting that 450 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 6: witnesses in a homicide in Brooklyn aren't frequently and very 451 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 6: real peril, but it's not a nationwide organization with a 452 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 6: type of reach that Lakosinustra has. 453 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: And part of the difference in the threat is that 454 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: once they turn, it's not just about stopping their testimony. 455 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: It's to pay the price for breaking that code correct. 456 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 6: Even if it's not going to do the individuals they 457 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 6: testified against any good at that point in time, there 458 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 6: still has to be a message set for the next 459 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 6: person who's thinking about cooperating. 460 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: A lot of thought goes into how best to keep 461 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: those witnesses safe. 462 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 6: They had to put them in communities where there would 463 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 6: not be any ties to a large Italian American populations 464 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 6: because because of those true fermiated Italian neighborhoods and populations 465 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 6: throughout the country, and once one of these guys would 466 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 6: testify or it was known to be cooperating, the word 467 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 6: would go out and literally there would be a nationwide manhunt. 468 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 6: So you know, you end up with people out in 469 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 6: the Midwest or the far West, or outside of some 470 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 6: small city in Texas where the best thing he can 471 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 6: do is dominoes for Italian food. 472 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: Charlotte was one of those responsible for prepping and protecting 473 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: Lenardo both before and during the trial. He was living 474 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: in an undisclosed location far from the eyes of the 475 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: New York City mob. 476 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 7: So I flew to this particular location. The whole one 477 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 7: side of this condo was all glass and there were 478 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 7: like trees back behind there like a woodsy area. We 479 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 7: would be chatting, and then I thought to myself, if 480 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 7: anybody knew we were here, they could just walk out 481 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 7: of those woods and just kills the two of us. 482 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: And the safety of their star witness wasn't the only concern. 483 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: The prosecutors also had their own wellbeing to think about. 484 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: Here's John Savay's It was very. 485 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 5: Much a concern. I would sort of disappear for days 486 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 5: to some city that I couldn't even tell my wife 487 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 5: where I was going, in order to meet with someone 488 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 5: who was a murderer. I vividly remember we had a 489 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 5: tape in which fat Toni Salerno in his social club 490 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 5: is kind of mocking Rudy Giuliani. There had been a 491 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 5: story in the New York Post about Giuliani having a bodyguard, 492 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 5: and fat Toni says something like, that's ridiculous. He don't 493 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 5: need a bodyguard. Don't even know we never killed prosecutors. 494 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 5: And I brought it home and on my home stereo 495 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 5: played this tape for my wife and I then look 496 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 5: at her and I say, see, it's all fine. He 497 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 5: looked at me like I completely lost my mind. She said, 498 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 5: so you think because you caught a mass murderer on 499 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 5: tape saying that he's not going to kill prosecutors, that 500 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 5: I'm supposed to feel better about this. 501 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 8: There had been, over a period of years prior to 502 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 8: or during this case, a pretty clear indication that the 503 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 8: US Mafia would not kill prosecutors or police. They would 504 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 8: kill witnesses, and they might kill people who disrupted their business, 505 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 8: but they didn't kill law enforcement people. A lot of 506 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 8: that was based on the fear they had that if 507 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 8: they ever killed a prosecutor or a police officer or 508 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 8: an FBI agent, the government might take the gloves off 509 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 8: and do some things that were, let say, out of 510 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 8: bounds otherwise in order to retaliate. 511 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: But the commission case was rewriting the rules. The heads 512 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: of the five families were facing an existential crisis, and 513 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: it was becoming increasingly clear that there was no line 514 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: they wouldn't cross. It was a reality that Gildchilders conceded, 515 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: So I guess. 516 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 6: My subconscious there was at least acknowledgment that there was 517 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 6: some element of danger. 518 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: A danger that went from unspoken to front and center 519 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. 520 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 6: There was one episode one afternoon involving Bruno and Delocado, 521 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 6: where you threatened me. 522 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 10: In the courtroom. 523 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: Bruno and Delacado was the primary defendant in the murder 524 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: of Carmi Galante, and as we will see, the hot 525 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: headed consiglieri for the Banano family was willing to do 526 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: anything to avoid going down with the ship. In our 527 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: first episode, we described the murder of the de facto 528 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: boss of the Banano crime family, Carmin Galante, and two 529 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: of his associates. After matching a palm print on the 530 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: recovered ghetaway car, police identified one of their primary suspects, 531 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: a Banano soldier named Bruno in Delacado, and this homicide 532 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: was now a centerpiece of the government's case against the mafia. 533 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: But why among the many murders carried out by the 534 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: mob did prosecutors focus on this one. Because the government 535 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: believed that they could prove that Galanti's murder was ordered 536 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: by the members of the commission, and that conspiracy meant 537 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: they were all accountable for the crime. But as Michael 538 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: Cherdoff explains, including this case in the trial also served 539 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: another critical purpose. 540 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 8: In order to make it real and to motivate the 541 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 8: jury to sit through the trial and to take it seriously. 542 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 8: An active violence has a dramatic effect, unlike tapes or 543 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 8: people talking about paying money, and it makes in a 544 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 8: very real way the jury understand that we're talking about 545 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 8: here is not just who gets money from a contract, 546 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 8: who lives and dies. And the fact that you have 547 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 8: a criminal organization that is willing to chose someone at 548 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 8: a restaurant, I think makes everybody sit up and take notice. 549 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: You know what else makes a jury sit up and 550 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: take notice when an aggressive defendant threatened street justice in 551 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: the middle of the court room. Here's Gil Childers. 552 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 6: At the time of the trial, Bruno was a captain. 553 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 6: He had been promoted largely, our informants tell us as 554 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 6: a result of his successful murder of Carmon Galante. For 555 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 6: a couple months, he's just sitting there twiddling his thumbs. 556 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 5: You know what am I doing here? 557 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 6: Then all of a sudden we turn to the part 558 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 6: of the case that involves the homicide of Carmine Galante, 559 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 6: and all of a sudden, his world sort of changed 560 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 6: from he's been a spectator now he's in the spotlight. 561 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 6: As soon as the court recessed for lunch, he jumps 562 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 6: up and starts yelling at me, screaming, I know who 563 00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 6: you are what are you doing? 564 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 8: You fair? 565 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 6: What are you talking about? Just screaming. The marshals come in, 566 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 6: grab them and take him in the back and I'm like, 567 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 6: oh wow, that was kind of shocking. 568 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: The episode left prosecutor's shaken. Just one look at the 569 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: Galante crime scene photos gave them a good idea of 570 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: what in Delacado was capable of. 571 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 6: Came back after the lunch in recess and we're at 572 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 6: the council table getting ready before the court comes in 573 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 6: and the jury comes in. Bruno was coming in from 574 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 6: the holding cell behind the courtroom. The marshals bring him 575 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 6: and he sits down and one of the deputy marshalls 576 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 6: comes over and says that Gil and Delocata wants to 577 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 6: talk to you. So I go over to him and goes, 578 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 6: mister Childers, I want to tell you. I apologize. I 579 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 6: was completely out of line. That was not right. You've 580 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 6: got nothing to worry about for me. Again, I wasn't 581 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 6: really expecting that. 582 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: So what accounted for the sudden change of heart? 583 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 6: When I thought about it, I thought his co defendants 584 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 6: are all people with exception of one that outranked him 585 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 6: within the mafia. They're all on trial for their lives 586 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 6: as well. In the back room and the holding salon, 587 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 6: he could imagine that fat Tony or someone else said, Bruno, 588 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 6: what the hell are you doing? We got enough heat 589 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 6: on us, We don't need this kind of crap. But 590 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 6: for whatever reason he had a change of heart when 591 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 6: he came back out, and there was never another episode 592 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 6: like that with him in the courtroom. 593 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: The prosecution pressed on with the evidence in the Galante murder. 594 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: One of the key witnesses was a woman named Migaulia Figueroa, 595 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: who had identified part of the license plate on the 596 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: getaway car. But once again the specter of retribution from 597 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: the mob threatened to derail their case. Here's Charlotte. 598 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 7: She was like nowhere to be found for a long 599 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 7: period of time. She was so frightened. We sent a 600 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 7: lead down to our office in Puerto Rico, and I 601 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 7: got a call saying that an agent in Puerto Rico 602 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 7: had located her and she was really not willing to testify. 603 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: Without the witness to lead to the getaway car was 604 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: likely out. And then what about the pomp print linking 605 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: a Delecado to the murder. Charlotte had to convince her 606 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: witness to show up in court on the day that 607 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: it mattered. 608 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 7: We sat down with her and at one particular point, 609 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 7: I thought she's going to back out of this, but 610 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 7: I think we had convinced her that the most important 611 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 7: thing was her safety and we would make sure that 612 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 7: she was going to be safe. 613 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: Finally, she agreed, and as she took the witness stand, 614 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: the fear was clear on her face and to the jury. 615 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 7: The thing that was so significant about her testimony was 616 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 7: you could tell she was scared to death. She didn't 617 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 7: even want to look over toward where we were sitting. 618 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 7: I mean, all the mob guys were behind us. You 619 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 7: could just tell that she didn't want to do this, 620 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 7: which made her a very effective witness. 621 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,919 Speaker 1: Figaro's testimony confirmed that the car she had seen leaving 622 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: the crime scene and the one with the pomp print 623 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: were one and the same. They also had video surveillance 624 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: of Bruno a Banano celebrating with Gambino gangsters at their 625 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: club right after the murder, clearly showing the families were 626 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: in this together. 627 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 6: It showed that these guys, as a governance tool, employed murder. 628 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 6: So it was the clearest and probably the most compelling 629 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 6: piece of evidence you could have in terms of the 630 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 6: violent nature of not only the mafia but the Commission 631 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 6: taking action to govern Lecosinostra. 632 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: But while the murder of Carma Galanti gave the Commission 633 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: case many of its dramatic headlines, the bulk of the 634 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: government's case centered on the mob's less sexy side of 635 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: the business concrete. Concrete made up the majority of the 636 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: mafia's illicit revenue streams. 637 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 8: The major money making effort private Commission was this requirement, 638 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 8: using their control over the labor unions, that every job 639 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 8: in Manhattan that involved concrete being poured or cement being 640 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 8: poured have a value of over two million dollars. The 641 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 8: mob had to get a percentage of that four percent, 642 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 8: two percent for the particular family that quote owned that 643 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 8: labor union, and two percent for the Commission as a whole, 644 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 8: to divide up. 645 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 1: In other words, as New York City grew hire and hire, 646 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: the mob grew richer and richer. But explaining the complicated scheme, 647 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: which involved everything from rigging union votes to threatening contractors, 648 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: was not a simple task. Prosecutors worried that their case 649 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: risk being bogged down in the minutia of the financial details, 650 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: and digging through all those records was difficult for the 651 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: prosecutors too. 652 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 17: Ritual we set up four days a week from I 653 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 17: think those nine thirty to five, and at the end 654 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 17: of the court day you take a deep breath and 655 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 17: then you scurry back to your office because you'd gotten 656 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 17: awful lot of work to do to get things ready for. 657 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 5: The next day. 658 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: As you can imagine, the trial took its toll on 659 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: the prosecutor's families as well. 660 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 5: All three of the wives, you know, Michael's, mine and Gills, 661 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 5: became friends and they would I think commiserate among the 662 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 5: three of them that you know, they had these three 663 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 5: lunatic husbands that were working just like complete maniacs. 664 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: Speaking of wives, those on the prosecution side weren't the 665 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,919 Speaker 1: only ones showing up to the courtroom. Here's John. 666 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 5: My wife was in the courtroom on important days and 667 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 5: she during breaks would go into the ladies room and 668 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 5: the mob wives were there. I remember her telling me 669 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 5: afterwards that they don't like you very much. John. You know, 670 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 5: I won't repeat exactly what they said, but it wasn't 671 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 5: very friendly. 672 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: But whatever their animosity towards the government, their husbands betrayed 673 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: a little outward emotion. 674 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 8: They understood they had signed on for this and always 675 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 8: understood the risks. They were stoic. They would listen to 676 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 8: the evidence, and they didn't seem to be angry or resentful. 677 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 8: They seemed to be philosophical about it. I remember a 678 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 8: couple of times we're walking up to the bench to 679 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 8: talk to the judge. I'd walk by Salerna, who's the 680 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 8: boss of the Genevie's film mean. He'd make a comment like, Oh, 681 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 8: You're going to be famous when this is over, and 682 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 8: I'm going to be in jail, and he'd like laugh. 683 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: But as the trial went on, many on the prosecution 684 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: side and in the press began to wonder if their 685 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: stoicism was a sign of resignation in the face of 686 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: the evidence against them, or a sign that maybe these 687 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: giants of organized crime, who had avoided the long arm 688 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 1: of the log for going on seven decades, might still 689 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 1: have one or two more tricks up their sleeves. Carmine 690 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: Persico was an alleged participant in multiple mob assassinations and 691 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: violent power plays. He had a reputation for living up 692 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: to his nickname the Snake. In the courtroom, it was 693 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: clear he aimed to be just as hard to handle. 694 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 5: Persico decided that he would represent himself in the trial 695 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 5: and not have a defense lawyer represent. 696 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: Him, and acting as his own attorney made for some 697 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: unique moments. 698 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 5: Periodically, the judge will bring the lawyers up to sidebar 699 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 5: to have a discussion outside the hearing of the jury 700 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,280 Speaker 5: about a point of evidence or an issue that has arisen. 701 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 5: And one of the stranger things about this trial is 702 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 5: that Carmine Persico, the boss of the Colombo family, was 703 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 5: in these intimate little sidebars with us, the other defense lawyers, 704 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 5: and the judge. 705 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: It was obvious that Persico was scheming something, but what 706 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be until he got up to talk that 707 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: prosecutors finally got a glimpse of his plan. 708 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 16: Dressed in a pinstriped suit and reading from a yellow 709 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 16: legal pad, Persico told the jury in a barely audible voice, 710 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 16: that the government will put witnesses on the stand who 711 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 16: have committed many crimes and are testifying because of deals 712 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,280 Speaker 16: with the government that include payments of money. 713 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: With an aggression befitting a man whose freedom was on 714 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: the line, Persico proceeded to attack and threaten every witness 715 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: who had dared to take the stand against him. In 716 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: one cross examination after another, he tried to intimidate witnesses 717 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: into recanting testimony. His reckless approach threatened to doom the defense, 718 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: That is, until it looked like it just might be working. 719 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: Next time. On Law and Order Criminal Justice System. 720 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 5: You could just feel the venom and the hatred that 721 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 5: Persico felt. 722 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 7: She said it was impossible for Bruno to be involved 723 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 7: because he was with me, so she was the alibi. 724 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 8: This sent Percugo into orbit. If you've ever heard of 725 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 8: the expression of looking daggers at somebody, this is like 726 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 8: looking surface missiles. 727 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 6: Persigo tugged on my coat sleeve and said, you think 728 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 6: them guys died? The gunshot Wounds. 729 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of 730 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 2: Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Anna Sega nicolazi. 731 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 2: This episode was written by Trevor Young and Anna Sega Nicolazzi. 732 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf, and Stephen Michael 733 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 2: at Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executive produced by 734 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 2: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young 735 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 2: and Chandler Mays and producers Jesse Funk, Nomes Griffin, and 736 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 2: Rima Alkali. This season is executive produced by Anna Sega Nicolazzi, 737 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 2: story producer Walker lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn Talmadge and Lukes. 738 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,720 Speaker 2: Dance editing and sound designed by Nomes Griffin, original music 739 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 2: by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, additional music 740 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: by Steve Moore, and additional voice over by me Steve Zernkelton. 741 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Fox five in New York, ABC and 742 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 2: CBS for providing archival material for the show. For more 743 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,879 Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the iHeartRadio app, 744 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 745 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.