1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,680
Speaker 1: Cool Zon Media.

2
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,520
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who did cool stuff.

3
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,719
Speaker 3: You're a weekly reminder that when there's bad things happening,

4
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,160
Speaker 3: there's a loose knit group of people who have both.

5
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,560
Speaker 2: Good and bad things to do about it.

6
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 3: I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this week my

7
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:25,320
Speaker 3: guest is an author, a podcaster, and my friend another

8
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,160
Speaker 3: one of those Dang she days, Shulie Branson.

9
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,519
Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, Hi, it's awesome to be on here. I

10
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 2: love the podcast. I love you all. I miss you too.

11
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 2: I was just thinking I haven't seen Margaret since the

12
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 2: Brooklyn book. There when you read from Sapling Cage.

13
00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,000
Speaker 3: That sounds right. We used to live in the same

14
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 3: city is how we know each other, many genders ago

15
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 3: for all of us involved. And you are the author

16
00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 3: of oh crap, It's about everyday anarchism.

17
00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 2: What is it called again? Anarchism? A guide for daily life?

18
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,320
Speaker 2: I always forget the subtitle too.

19
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,200
Speaker 3: And you are the host of the podcast The Breakup Theory.

20
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, yes, that's not actually about breaking up with people.

21
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,800
Speaker 2: It took me a minute, I mean sometimes it is. Okay, okay.

22
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,520
Speaker 2: So my idea with the Breakup Theory is that we

23
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,440
Speaker 2: can learn from ending things, which pertains I think, to relationships,

24
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 2: but also ending the state, you know, ending this social order.

25
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 2: So just like learning that things don't have to be

26
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 2: eternal and that you have the power to leave. But yes,

27
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,399
Speaker 2: I have all kinds of different people on there. We

28
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 2: also just do letters from listeners with relationship problems, so

29
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 2: that kind of goes into the breakup territory. Okay. We

30
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:55,800
Speaker 2: also have Sophie on the car producer. Hi Sophie, Hi, Sophie.

31
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,680
Speaker 3: I gave you a warning ahead of time. Now I'm

32
00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 3: going to give Shorlly a warning ahead of time and

33
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 3: the listener warning ahead of time. This is an episode

34
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,640
Speaker 3: about people fighting against animal abuse, so there's animal abuse

35
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:09,000
Speaker 3: in it.

36
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, cover your fur baby's ears.

37
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, every now and then. When I was reading this,

38
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 3: I would just look over at my dog and yeah,

39
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 3: think about who I wouldn't kill for him?

40
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, the amount of crimes I would co

41
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 1: admit on behalf of my dogs. And or somebody was like, oh,

42
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 1: I'll do witchcraft and your dog gets to live longer.

43
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: I'd be like, where do I sign?

44
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,559
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, totally, here's my blood.

45
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: Oath, Like who do you want?

46
00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 4: It's fine first whatever, Yeah, I admire the the murderousness

47
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 4: of my cats actually, and you know I would defend them.

48
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 2: But I'm like, you guys are stronger than me.

49
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 1: I think, let Anderson like drive my car. I yeah,

50
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 1: you really needed.

51
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 3: To see Rentrow would just chase every other car and

52
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 3: it would go bad. But actually, if I was chasing

53
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:03,720
Speaker 3: a car and needed to catch up with a car,

54
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:04,799
Speaker 3: I would let Rentrell drive.

55
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 2: In a second, you get him a skateboard and then

56
00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 2: let Ntra like gout run you to the car. It

57
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:12,720
Speaker 2: would probably work.

58
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 3: This boy is stronger than he has any right to

59
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,079
Speaker 3: be for forty six pounds or whatever. So this week

60
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 3: is going to be one of the thorniest, complicatedest I'm

61
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,480
Speaker 3: going to piss off people on every side Zavist episodes

62
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 3: of cool people who did cool stuff, because this week

63
00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,720
Speaker 3: we are going to talk about the surprisingly successful campaign

64
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 3: against animal testing and focusing on the actions of a

65
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,920
Speaker 3: campaign called Stop Huntington Animal Cruelty or SHACK for short.

66
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 3: This is a campaign that pushed the envelope of protest

67
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 3: tactics and if nothing else, is a fascinating case study

68
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 3: on how to put pressure in corporations, sometimes by stealing

69
00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 3: their mother in law's corpse. Usually have you heard much

70
00:03:59,560 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 3: about it?

71
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 2: The name rings a bell when you say Shack, but

72
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 2: then when you set it out, I was like, I

73
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't.

74
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 3: Know, Sophie, you coming in knowing anything about Shaq?

75
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: Nope, thelwy Shack, I know Shaquille O'Neal.

76
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,600
Speaker 3: This one is slightly different. This was all of the

77
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 3: rage and hotness when I first got involved in politics

78
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 3: in two thousand and two.

79
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,479
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a number that comes after the Shack, right, Yeah,

80
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,880
Speaker 2: the Shacks Stacks seven when six people got arrested. Yeah,

81
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: but we can't really count.

82
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 3: No, No, seven people were arrested. Actually, hundreds of people

83
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,280
Speaker 3: were arrested for part of this campaign, and many many

84
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 3: people caught felonies and went to prison for a long time.

85
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 3: But the Shack seven, Okay, we'll get to that, Okay.

86
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 3: The shortest version of this story is that there was

87
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,520
Speaker 3: an animal research company called Huntington Life Sciences, and they

88
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,040
Speaker 3: were originally in the UK. They started in the seventies,

89
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,880
Speaker 3: maybe in the fifties, crap, it's in the script later

90
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 3: or whatever. In nineteen ninety eight, footage came out just

91
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,480
Speaker 3: showing researchers like like punching puppies in the face and shit,

92
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 3: just all the stuff you don't want to see pictures of,

93
00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,000
Speaker 3: and vivisecting monkeys, which I hate that I know the

94
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 3: word vivisect, although to be fair, I know it because

95
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 3: I'm a goth first and foremost. It's when you dissect

96
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 3: a living creature.

97
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,559
Speaker 2: All the early anarchists punk bands, like all their songs

98
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 2: were about anti vivisection.

99
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,839
Speaker 3: In the early eighties, Yeah, totally. Skinny Puppy has an

100
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:34,279
Speaker 3: album called vivisect. That's probably where I first heard the word. Oh,

101
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 3: in retrospect. Probably obviously Skinny Puppy, the industrial noise band,

102
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 3: was probably named after the footage of animals from the

103
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,279
Speaker 3: sort of thing. Yes, So this footage comes out in

104
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight, and it just broke apart a kind

105
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,919
Speaker 3: of public illusion that people have that animal testing is

106
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,800
Speaker 3: this rare and necessary evil that everyone involved with is

107
00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,800
Speaker 3: doing the best they can. However, I'm not going to

108
00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 3: come out I've got complicated feelings, but I'm not trying

109
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,480
Speaker 3: to convince anyone of anything about the morality of animal

110
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,279
Speaker 3: testing itself. But I'm going to talk about the specific

111
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 3: abuses of this paying SHACK was this massive public pressure

112
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 3: campaign across two continents to try and shut it down.

113
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 3: They brought the largest vivisector in Europe to its knees

114
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 3: on several occasions, only to have multiple governments and an

115
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,919
Speaker 3: American billionaire rush to rescue them. New laws were enacted

116
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,080
Speaker 3: to make protesting for animal rights a terrorism charge. I'm

117
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 3: not joking or being particularly hyperbolic here, right, And a

118
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,599
Speaker 3: bunch of people, the Shack seven, which is six people

119
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 3: got years in prison for running a website as part

120
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,720
Speaker 3: of an activist campaign, and actually some people got about

121
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 3: a year in the UK for running a newsletter.

122
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 2: Are they part of the ALF because I've met people

123
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,120
Speaker 2: who involved with that and had been in prison.

124
00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. So SHACK is the above ground group that is like,

125
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 3: we do public pressure campaigns and reveal targets or we

126
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 3: reveal who has been doing stuff that we think is bad,

127
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,800
Speaker 3: and we are trying to stop hunting in animal life

128
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 3: sciences and we just sure like the ALF, who are

129
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 3: completely different to organization or non organization. So basically, if

130
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 3: you go rescue animals, you are the ALF. If you're

131
00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 3: doing a legal but spicy protest, you're SHACK, unless you're

132
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 3: the government, which case you're like, you're all the same people, which,

133
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 3: to be fair, the arrest record shows there a lot

134
00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 3: of is a type vent diagram.

135
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,200
Speaker 2: Not at all pertinent to recent events.

136
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 3: So actually, the reason that I wanted to talk about

137
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,480
Speaker 3: this is that originally I was like, Oh, I'm not

138
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 3: really going to focus as much on the animal part.

139
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about the specific tactics they used,

140
00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,080
Speaker 3: because I think it's worth understanding this kind of the

141
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 3: way that they created the idea of this public pressure campaign,

142
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 3: and they kind of opened a Pandora's box in a

143
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,280
Speaker 3: way that has had a lot of knock on effects,

144
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 3: largely negative if I'm being frank in terms of the

145
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,880
Speaker 3: kinds of people who use these tactics today. Shack ran,

146
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 3: frankly a dirty campaign. The Shack model was not just

147
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 3: to target the company or the people who worked at

148
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 3: the company. They're not like you there you punched a

149
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,400
Speaker 3: beagle in the face, or even you're the secretary at

150
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,080
Speaker 3: the place that punches beagles in the face. They targeted

151
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,440
Speaker 3: any people and companies that do business with the company,

152
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,400
Speaker 3: and sometimes they would target people and companies that do

153
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 3: business with people and companies that do business with the

154
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,480
Speaker 3: company they believed in secondary and tertiary targeting. There were

155
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of acts of sabotage and threats involved

156
00:08:58,760 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 3: in this campaign.

157
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,000
Speaker 2: See the moral gray area here.

158
00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,840
Speaker 3: It turns a lot of people off, and it turns

159
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,839
Speaker 3: a lot of people on, and it honestly a lot

160
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 3: of it does both to me in alternating waves.

161
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,480
Speaker 1: Yay, this is like the thing that humanity has the

162
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,560
Speaker 1: hardest time with, which is like two things or multiple

163
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:18,920
Speaker 1: things can be true at once.

164
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And that's come up so much with it

165
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,320
Speaker 2: ron And I mean I'm thinking also about Gaza stuff

166
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 2: and yeah, yeah, and the different forms of protests there. Yeah,

167
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 2: burning down I just saw a cool video of people

168
00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,200
Speaker 2: burning down servers, although they just got mass arrested.

169
00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,880
Speaker 3: So isn't the one in a somewhere in eastern eup

170
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:37,440
Speaker 3: check Republic?

171
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,559
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, right, Yeah.

172
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: Mag Pie was wondering if you were doing this because

173
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,800
Speaker 1: of that story that like went viral like in the

174
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 1: last week of the dogs that actually like escaped. Yeah,

175
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,359
Speaker 1: does that have to do.

176
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,920
Speaker 3: No, I had already started this episode when that came out.

177
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,959
Speaker 3: But yeah, there's this video that's coming out of like

178
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,199
Speaker 3: a bunch of animals that were like, na, we got

179
00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,960
Speaker 3: out of this truck and we're like walking our fifth

180
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,959
Speaker 3: ten kilometers home and they like did it all together.

181
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 2: And it's like the most heartwarming thing in the world.

182
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,719
Speaker 1: Led by a Corgi Anderson and.

183
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 3: There's a bunch of like real large dogs, but they're

184
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,240
Speaker 3: following the Corgi. It makes sense.

185
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 1: The herding dogs a charge.

186
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 2: We need a new Anti Disney to make that movie. Yeah.

187
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,320
Speaker 1: No, if this was in China, they allegedly like escaped

188
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 1: like what people were saying, they were gonna.

189
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,199
Speaker 2: Become, yeah, like a meat truck. Yeah, oh yeah.

190
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 1: It's like the most random breeds of dogs, just like

191
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 1: like fuck this, we're out.

192
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,319
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have thought about the Corgis as the Liberator

193
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 2: is because I associate them with the Crown of England,

194
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 2: you know. I think it was like, was it was

195
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,360
Speaker 2: it Elizabeth or Victoria too?

196
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:41,760
Speaker 3: Very popular with my dog.

197
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: Anderson's part corgi, and she could run the.

198
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,280
Speaker 2: World even with her short legs.

199
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 1: She got the little legs. She got the little legs

200
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 1: strong but mighty.

201
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got the large dogs to do the physical work.

202
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:53,480
Speaker 2: That's fine, you know.

203
00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 3: So Shack kind of lost in the court of public opinion.

204
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 3: But long time they're winning the court of public opinion,

205
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 3: not as shack. I don't think that people actually some

206
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 3: there's a documentary came out about them in twenty nineteen.

207
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:16,960
Speaker 3: But on animal testing, HLS survived, But animal testing is

208
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 3: going out of style fast. And I'm glad because all

209
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 3: of the evil stuff that was uncovered decades ago. I

210
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,520
Speaker 3: was thinking like, oh, maybe maybe they all kind of

211
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,000
Speaker 3: cleaned up their act after all this pressure campaign. And

212
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,720
Speaker 3: so I was reading about this and no, no, absolutely,

213
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,560
Speaker 3: the company that HLS became years later has been like

214
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,320
Speaker 3: cited for like the worst violations of Animal Welfare Act

215
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 3: in US history, like a couple of years ago. Like

216
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 3: they're still they're still punching puppies. Yes, and maybe they're religious,

217
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 3: let's find out, but you know what, they pled guilty.

218
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 3: So I feel all right about this. And I am

219
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 3: not going to try and convince you, dear listener, about

220
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 3: animal testing or meat eating or any of that stuff

221
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,959
Speaker 3: inherently one way or the other. I am the kind

222
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 3: of vegan that real vegans get mad at. I eat honey,

223
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,679
Speaker 3: I buy leather. I don't believe that meat is murder.

224
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 3: One time, a real vegan told me that I'm not vegan,

225
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,679
Speaker 3: I'm just plant based. It was really a nice dinner conversation.

226
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,840
Speaker 2: I am a vegan who eats honey, and also I

227
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,880
Speaker 2: have one other exception, which is oysters, because I'm just

228
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,520
Speaker 2: like a decade ant bitch, and.

229
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,679
Speaker 3: So yes, I don't have a central nervous system. I

230
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,439
Speaker 3: can't justify the fact that I don't eat oysters.

231
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 2: It's just like the one thing I carried over. I

232
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 2: feel like a libertine, you know.

233
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I realized at some point I was like, if

234
00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,080
Speaker 3: I'm just plant based instead of vegan, that's fine.

235
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 2: I don't actually care.

236
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,840
Speaker 3: I've also been doing it longer than most of the

237
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,719
Speaker 3: people mad at me have been alive. This year was

238
00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,640
Speaker 3: my twenty fifth anniversary of mostly eating plants. I feel

239
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:01,880
Speaker 3: pretty fucking good about that.

240
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 2: I think a common friend of ours put it to

241
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 2: me as like a harm reduction kind of perspective, which

242
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 2: was really helpful to me, because so many vegans are

243
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,320
Speaker 2: like very rule based and then judge other people by

244
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 2: those rules. But if you think about it, like because

245
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 2: none of us are solving this problem by individually stopping

246
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,200
Speaker 2: eating meat, but no, you know, it lessens the.

247
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 3: Harm, and also like, I think it's kind of heart

248
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,600
Speaker 3: and I don't want to get stay too long on

249
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,280
Speaker 3: this part of it because people they already feel about this.

250
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:34,080
Speaker 2: How you feel about it?

251
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,840
Speaker 3: True, you, dear listener, already have your mind made up

252
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 3: about this one way or the other. I'm not really

253
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,640
Speaker 3: trying to change it. Animals eat animals, and we are animals.

254
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 3: The problem comes in with the like systems that we've

255
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 3: created that cause suffering. Is how I.

256
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,559
Speaker 2: Feel about it, exactly.

257
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 3: But really interestingly, this idea, this one specific issue about

258
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,599
Speaker 3: should we test on animals, not even eat animals, but

259
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,679
Speaker 3: should we test things on animals? It opens up the

260
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 3: entirety of Western philosophy like it is actually just gets

261
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 3: it some annoyingly complex philosophical questions, like, for example, is

262
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 3: it okay to pitch to ads in the middle of

263
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 3: a sentence? I think so, yeah, I think so too.

264
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,360
Speaker 2: It's best to do it that way?

265
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, absolutely, so That's what I'm going to do.

266
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 3: Actually it wasn't in a middle of the sentence, but

267
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 3: it wasn't the middle of a thought, and that's almost

268
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 3: as good. Here's the ads, and we're back. What are animals?

269
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 3: Why are they not people. This is a question that

270
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 3: has been plaguing humanity for so long. Why is it

271
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 3: okay to vivisect a dog but not a person, Or

272
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 3: a rat but not a dog, Or a clam but

273
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 3: not a rat, Or a stalk of corn but not

274
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 3: a clam, or rocks instead of corn. Right, there's this

275
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,800
Speaker 3: piece of graffiti. It's kind of a meme. So maybe

276
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 3: you'll have seen it. Have you seen the billboard that

277
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 3: has a continuum of animals on it with cats on

278
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 3: one end, and then dogs and then horses and rabbits

279
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 3: and then chickens and pigs and cows.

280
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, okay.

281
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 3: The headline of this billboard says, all animals want to live?

282
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 3: Where do you draw the line? And their idea is

283
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 3: like saying, whoa. If you don't think it's okay to

284
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 3: eat a dog, why do you think it's okay to

285
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 3: eat a chicken? But the meme of it, and I

286
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 3: think it started with graffiti, is you just draw the

287
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 3: line on it. You're just like, ah, this is where

288
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 3: I draw the line, because everyone does, like maybe not

289
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 3: even in that continuum, but you draw it somewhere. You

290
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 3: draw it to the left of oysters, right, Yes, exactly,

291
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,400
Speaker 3: I don't, but not for any reason that I can

292
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,240
Speaker 3: actually argue. Shellfish don't have a central nervous system. I

293
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 3: don't know why I could tell you that I don't

294
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 3: eat them. They just seem icky to me, honestly, if

295
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 3: I'm being truthful about it, So I just I don't

296
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 3: miss them, so I don't eat them. Humans have always

297
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,640
Speaker 3: had complex relationships with other animals. Mostly we've been willing

298
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 3: to eat them, though not all people and all cultures

299
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 3: and somewhere along the line. And I blame this on Christianity,

300
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 3: which is not usually my go to, but I think

301
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 3: in this case, I think is specifically true. We move

302
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 3: from being one of the animals and acting like animals do,

303
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 3: including eating other animals, to deciding were like special and

304
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 3: we're in charge of all of the other animals, and personally,

305
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 3: I would probably argue that that creates both the idea

306
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 3: that we need to caretake them, or that we get

307
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 3: to do whatever we want to them, or that we

308
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,320
Speaker 3: can't eat them.

309
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 2: I think both of those things come from this.

310
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:42,760
Speaker 5: Well.

311
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,000
Speaker 2: It's like Adam was given the power to name all

312
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 2: the animals at the same time that humans were given

313
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 2: dominion over all of their earth, you know, so even

314
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I don't know that relationship of like naming.

315
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,800
Speaker 2: I always have such a hard time too, the way

316
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:03,160
Speaker 2: that people project like gender or other human attributes onto animals.

317
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,919
Speaker 2: Like I'm like, they you get to live free of

318
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:05,879
Speaker 2: that shit, you know.

319
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 3: Okay when people miss gender Rentro, I'm like, they get

320
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 3: really apologetic, and I'm like, I promise you Rentroll doesn't care.

321
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,160
Speaker 3: Like now, Rentraw is a boy. In my head, I

322
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 3: am choosing how I gender Rentro, but I promise you

323
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,520
Speaker 3: Rentroll doesn't care. Rintraw also doesn't lift his leg to pee.

324
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,719
Speaker 3: He like he is a boy raised by trans girls.

325
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,920
Speaker 1: Where is Anderson? Technically girl lifts her leg? Would she beats?

326
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,159
Speaker 2: Yeah? I have a trans cat.

327
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, we all have a bunch of fucking transass animals. Rinchrow

328
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 3: stretches his back legs out like he's doing his morning

329
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 3: stretch to pee.

330
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,680
Speaker 2: Wow. I like that. I'll try that. Yeah, yeah, you

331
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 2: should try that.

332
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 3: So enlightenment thinkers came along and they fuck everything up

333
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:54,200
Speaker 3: to Karte, I think that's.

334
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:54,920
Speaker 2: How you say his name.

335
00:17:55,119 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was like all animals are unthinking automaton, and

336
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 3: for hundreds of years, scientists pretended to believe that animals

337
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 3: didn't feel pain. I am phrasing it like that because

338
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 3: I don't believe the scientists. I actually don't think that

339
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,719
Speaker 3: they didn't think animals feel pain, because it's so obvious.

340
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 3: I don't need a philosophical argument about why animals feel pain.

341
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,000
Speaker 3: Everyone knows that animals feel pain.

342
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:34,160
Speaker 2: Right, you step on your dog's foot or whatever. They yelled, yeah, yeah.

343
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,479
Speaker 3: And they're like grouchy at you for all while right like,

344
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,439
Speaker 3: I think that scientists came up with weird philosophical nonsense

345
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 3: with which to distance themselves from the pain so that

346
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,880
Speaker 3: they could go about their lives. Other old timey assholes

347
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 3: understood that animals felt things. Darwin wrote, quote, there's no

348
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 3: fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals and their

349
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 3: mental faculties. The difference in mind between man and the

350
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 3: higher animals, great as a is, is certainly one of

351
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 3: degree and not one of kind. The love for all

352
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,199
Speaker 3: living things is the most noble attribute of man. He

353
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,640
Speaker 3: also wrote the lower animals, like man, manifestly feel pleasure

354
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 3: and pain, happiness and misery, and went on to describe

355
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 3: that not only do puppies play, but so do ants.

356
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 2: I honestly, I love having cats because to me they

357
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,880
Speaker 2: embody this like total pleasure of being and like they

358
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,879
Speaker 2: bring that into my world in a way that I

359
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 2: don't know that I would be able to. Like you

360
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 2: can see that they're just like luxuriating like most of

361
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,679
Speaker 2: the time, and it's so beautiful and yeah, you know,

362
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 2: on the edge of like real sexual feeling. I'm like, yeah,

363
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 2: chill out, right.

364
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, cats are having a good time. I mean, or

365
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 3: they're not having a good time, but yeah.

366
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: Like right, who knows.

367
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 3: It wasn't until nineteen eighty nine that veterinarians in the

368
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 3: US were trained to actually believe that animals felt pain

369
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 3: and that you should alleviate the animals as their feeling pain.

370
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 3: It took like I was an entire ass adult before

371
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 3: the scientific consensus shifted over to be like, fine, whatever,

372
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 3: animals have feelings. I'm actually kind of into science. But

373
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 3: it is embarrassing that in two thousand and two there

374
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 3: had to be a paper called new Evidence of Animal

375
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,440
Speaker 3: Consciousness that opens with the sentence, this paper reviews evidence

376
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 3: that increases the probability that many animals experience at least

377
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 3: simple levels of consciousness.

378
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 2: Probability.

379
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 3: Yep, I can watch my dog dream.

380
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah. My friend P wrote this book God Artificial

381
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 2: Intelligence in Me, and I learned from this about the

382
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,959
Speaker 2: scientists who I don't remember his name, but he was

383
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: doing these tests some monkeys to try to prove whether

384
00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 2: or not like people need like a maternal kind of care, right,

385
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 2: and so he was like torturing these monkeys trying to

386
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 2: figure out like if if they want to be cared for.

387
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, this is the dumbest, Like you

388
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 2: just look at anything and you can tell like they

389
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: couldn't understand if humans needed mothers or caregivers.

390
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 3: It's so frustrating because like sometimes you're like, hey, can

391
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 3: we cure cancer or whatever, and you're like, I don't know, maybe,

392
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 3: But when people are like I just want to see

393
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 3: if monkeys get sad, like fuck you, then.

394
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: Fuck off.

395
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 3: And I would argue, and I swear I'm gonna mostly

396
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 3: talk about activism and stuff real soon. I would argue

397
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 3: that there's a fundamental cruelty at the heart of modern

398
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 3: society that we're all aware of, and we're all aware

399
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: of our complicity in it, and we mostly turn our

400
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 3: gaze away from it. And that's not I'm not even

401
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 3: arguing this is inherently bad. But for most people, the

402
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 3: reason that we hate diehard vegans, including partly myself, is

403
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 3: that we understand that there's a kernel of tru grouth

404
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 3: in what they say. I not opposed to humans eating meat.

405
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 3: Where all animals, of your definition of evil includes eating

406
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 3: other animals, then you're calling the wolf evil, You're calling

407
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 3: the housecat evil. House Cats are evil, but we love

408
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 3: them for it, right, And there's just this incredible amount

409
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 3: of suffering we're aware of and choose to ignore. At

410
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 3: egg farms, male chicks are thrown into basically meat grinders

411
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 3: alive on the first day of their life, just millions

412
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 3: and millions of them. It's called chick maceration. I saw

413
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 3: three seconds of it once before I turned away from

414
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 3: the video, and it lives in my head. Animal agriculture

415
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 3: is not happy cows on a farm. It is an

416
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 3: industrial machine. And I'm not going to spend this episode

417
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: trying to make you feel awful about it. But I

418
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 3: think everyone owes it to themselves to at least once

419
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 3: in their life look at those videos and read the reports.

420
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: Not to change your habits, but to accept the darkness

421
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 3: that is at the core of your habits. I think

422
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: this is also true of human suffering. You should look

423
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 3: at how your lithium is mined. You should look how

424
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 3: your clothes are made, how your tomatoes are picked, how

425
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 3: people are treated when they clean slaughter houses. Don't linger

426
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 3: forever thinking about it, because we have to keep living.

427
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 3: But I think it's worth facing at least once.

428
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's super right on. We have to

429
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 2: live in a kind of ignorance sometimes to be able

430
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: to function.

431
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: And I think that's what the animals don't feel pain.

432
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 3: Argument was for animal testing, and I have a lot

433
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 3: more respect for someone who's like, obviously, this animal feels pain,

434
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: and what I am doing is morally complicated, but I

435
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 3: believe it is necessary. I think that people all have

436
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: things like that, Like I actually think, for example, the

437
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 3: wonderful documentary about the Future and Or does a good

438
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 3: job of addressing these things about say, for example, revolution,

439
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 3: where they're like doing bad things in the name of revolution,

440
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: and I'm actually too much of a paladin. I'm like, they, oh,

441
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 3: those people and OR shouldn't have done the bad things

442
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 3: in the name of revolution. I don't like the art

443
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: dealer guy, but I think that it's important to understand

444
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 3: the complexity, the moral complexity of what you're doing.

445
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: It's really easy to tell other people how they should

446
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: have acted too, you know, like, oh, yeah, tell me like, oh,

447
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: that was the wrong thing to do when you were

448
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: in the middle of like fighting for your life or what. Yeah. Totally.

449
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 3: But in a surprise, win, I didn't know when I

450
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: started this research. The scientific community at animal rights activists

451
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: are like, they're not actually in consensus, but they are

452
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 3: accidentally kind of in consensus, or at least they're on

453
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 3: the same side of this. Right now, animal testing is

454
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 3: in the process of being phased out or at least

455
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: reduced dramatically, as new and more effective models of research

456
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 3: have been developed.

457
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: Do you know this? No, I didn't know that, but

458
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: hell yeah, yeah.

459
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: Okay, so animal testing. Animal testing goes back millennia. But

460
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get into all of it. I'm

461
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 3: going to start with the history of government regulation of

462
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: animal testing because the government required animal testing was done

463
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: out of the public interest and an attempt to crack

464
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: down on quack science. And I think that's worth understanding.

465
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: They call it quack science because of ducks. Wait, actually, no,

466
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: I I they're like appropriating from duck culture. That's true.

467
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: You have enough. Like you're like a professor. So like

468
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: if you had told me that, I just would have

469
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: believed you.

470
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 2: I can make sure it up as a professor.

471
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of that this seven in the world.

472
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, I'm barely a professor.

473
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: All right, I have been to classes that you taught.

474
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: I'm unemployed right now.

475
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I'm so sorry. Oh it's fine.

476
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 2: I love it.

477
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 3: So in nineteen thirty seven, some drug manufacturer released some

478
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: drug that was made with a toxin called diethylene glycol

479
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 3: and more than one hundred people died as a result.

480
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: So nineteen thirty eight, Congress passed groundbreaking legislation to protect

481
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: the public, the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetics Act of

482
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 3: nineteen thirty eight, and this mandated animal testing for every

483
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: new drug and every new use of a drug. Now,

484
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 3: to animal rights activists, this is a terrible law. Right

485
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 3: to scientists and a lot of people interested in the

486
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 3: public good, this is life saving. Both sides of this

487
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 3: debate have felt really strongly about this over the decades,

488
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 3: and both are coming from a place of empathy and caring,

489
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: so they don't really see eye to eye historically. Now,

490
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: some people are just in it for profit, and the

491
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 3: people who run these corporations appear to be just in

492
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 3: it for profit, but the people making a lot of

493
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 3: the arguments, And that made researching this episode a fucking

494
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 3: nightmare because both sides are short up by statistics and

495
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 3: research and first hand experience and anecdotes. And also I

496
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 3: found both sides lying their fucking asses off. The animal

497
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 3: rights folks were exaggerating for dramatic effect, and they misrepresent

498
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 3: the science on a regular basis, and statements by scientists

499
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 3: and animal testing folks emphasize the life saving medicine animal

500
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 3: testing is produced, while downplaying the repeated violations of animal

501
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 3: welfare laws, the non necessary animal testing, and also the

502
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: results of undercover investigations that reveal callousness and cruelty. Also,

503
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: that side has a lot of government and corporate backing.

504
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 3: So I'm not trying to be like both sides are equal.

505
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: I'm saying it's messy to fucking research. During most of

506
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: the heyday of animal testing, the scientific consensus was again

507
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 3: pretending like they didn't believe that animals could even feel pain,

508
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 3: But that started to change around the end of the

509
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: twentieth century and around the turn of that century, aggressive

510
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: animal rights activists revealed a lot of truths and a

511
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 3: couple lives about the animal testing industry and forced the

512
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: conversation at a time when tens of millions of animals

513
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 3: a year were being tested on and the numbers aren't

514
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 3: really tracked because the Animal Welfare Act, which still people

515
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: can't pass the Animal Fair Act, but it only keeps

516
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: track of the welfare five percent of animals that are

517
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: tested on because it doesn't count rats, mice, birds, and

518
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 3: I think reptiles and fish, so its protections only affect

519
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 3: a little bit of under a million animals a year,

520
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 3: like dogs and horses and primates that are tested on

521
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 3: in our society.

522
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. Also, sorry to interrupt, but it's

523
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 2: literally why I have you on here me interrupt. The

524
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: history of trends people too, ties into this because the

525
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: discovery of hormones and the attempt to change genders comes

526
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 2: from experimenting on I think chickens is where it first started.

527
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: That they like found a way to make like a

528
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: rooster have hen qualities. Oh interesting, and so that like

529
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: you know, goes down the chain to trying to figure

530
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: out how to make people be able to change gender.

531
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: And also it has a history of like you know,

532
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: lack of consent forced changes on people. Yeah. I mean

533
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: there's a lot of weird, weird shit that went on,

534
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: but that's where we get our ability to hormonally transition.

535
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it doesn't surprise me. But yeah, animal testing

536
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: has always been flawed, and I put emphasis on that

537
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: word to say, put it complicatedly, it's been flawed from

538
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 3: a research perspective. Dogs aren't people, rats aren't dogs. People

539
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: have been curing cancers and mice for ages but can't

540
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 3: seem to do the same in people, And some people

541
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: say that it's fatally flawed. Now it's useless to do

542
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: animal research. One of the more prominent animal rights activists

543
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: I read about this week is a former vivisector. Other

544
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: people say that animal testing is flawed but still necessary,

545
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: but in the twenty tens, technology has progressed in such

546
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: a way that many, perhaps most, and maybe all, animal

547
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: testing has become or will become obsolete. There's all kinds

548
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 3: of shit that's over my head, including a bunch of

549
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 3: cloning strange little tissue cells and wiring them up together

550
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: on plastic chips, and it gets into other stuff I

551
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: don't like, like artificial intelligence, which you know, but because

552
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 3: this new technology, I don't know as much about the

553
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: machine learning stuff, but the weird chips and shit I

554
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 3: read a lot about. It's not because it's actually based

555
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: on humans and not non human animals. It's actually dramatically

556
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: more effective for most things. It's more effective than animal

557
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: tests are. Take for example, liver injury. Twenty two percent

558
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: of clinical trials fail once they're given to people, specifically

559
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: because of something called dilly drug induced liver injury, which

560
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: doesn't show up in animal tests. But these new models

561
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 3: where you have like the little tiny human on a

562
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 3: little circuit way better at determining the effects on the

563
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: human liver because there's a little tiny human liver on

564
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: there and it's it's like clonal tissue. Again, I read

565
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 3: about like eight different versions of it, and they're all

566
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: really complicated and kind of over my head, even though

567
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: I read so many articles about them.

568
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: We get to bring back the word monous, the little human.

569
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: It's such a good word.

570
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 3: That is no more monkey testing, only a monkeyly testing.

571
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: But I mean, this is like a total flawed logic

572
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: here they're like, Okay, we're gonna test on animals to

573
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: figure out what we can do for humans, because humans

574
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: are better than animals. But then you're like trying to

575
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: say that what you're gonna do with an animal is

576
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: gonna like equate to what you can do with the humans.

577
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: So at some point they're assuming that humans and animals

578
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: share something right totally.

579
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: They're like, oh, well, animals don't feel pain. They're like,

580
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: why are you testing painkillers on them?

581
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: Then test them on me. I want to have painkillers

582
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: tested on me.

583
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: I know, I know. And it's funny because, oh, the

584
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: ethics of human trouser are so complicated, but complicated, not

585
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 3: one sided, you know. Okay, now to make it really complicated,

586
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 3: all of these new models of testing, guess someone who's

587
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 3: really excited about them, someone of a lot of power.

588
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: I mean, there's Trump, he's a guy.

589
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: Is it somebody we've covered on behind the Bastards?

590
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 3: Uh huh yeah.

591
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: Is it somebody that is really obsessed with dead animals?

592
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: Uh huh?

593
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: Is it somebody with a really punishable face?

594
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

595
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: Is it RFK Junior?

596
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 3: It is a junior Make America Healthy Again wants no

597
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: more animal testing, but he.

598
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: Likes to like bring dead bears into Central Park or

599
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: whatever they want.

600
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: DIY animal test.

601
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: He wants that, but he wants everybody to, like, you know,

602
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: just like drink beef talent.

603
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay to like kill animals as a joke.

604
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally for a bit, It's fine. In twenty nineteen,

605
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: the first Trump administration, so also Trump declared that animal

606
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: testing would be phased out by twenty thirty five. And

607
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,239
Speaker 3: I honestly got really concerned when I first read this,

608
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: because I was like, oh shit, is animal testing actually

609
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 3: like the woke position, Like, what's happening here?

610
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 5: Right?

611
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: Biden removed the phasing out deadline, but also in twenty

612
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: twenty two, he passed the FDA Modernization Act that removes

613
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: animal testing as a legal requirement for all drugs because again,

614
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: modern research models have rendered a great deal of animal

615
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 3: testing obsolete and it is undeniably cruel if we're performing

616
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 3: unnecessary testing. Then RFK Junior went ahead and tied it

617
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: into the Make America Healthy Again. And I am real

618
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: skeptical of this particular stopped clock, but the scientific community

619
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: does seem, for my attempts at researching this to be

620
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: largely behind this move. Science Magazine says, quote, although President

621
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: Donald Trump's administration has ignored scientific consensus in many areas,

622
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 3: particularly vaccination policy and climate change, many in the scientific

623
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: community call the move to Nam's the new something models

624
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 3: a good alternative, at least if the technologies are used

625
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: to complement rather than replace, animal studies. So the scientific

626
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 3: consensus isn't get rid of animal studies. The scientific consensus

627
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 3: is so many less animal studies. And you cannot give

628
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 3: Trump or his administration credit here because the main people

629
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: making it hard to move to these things that they

630
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 3: said that everyone has to move to now is Trump

631
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 3: and Doge and a shock to no one. Yeah, they're

632
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 3: in the middle of gutting the FDA and cutting the

633
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 3: funding necessary to develop all these new models that they

634
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: say that they're all going to move to. I think

635
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 3: that they want to get rid of animal testing because

636
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 3: animal testing is expensive. A single unspecialized LABRAC costs a

637
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: lab one thousand dollars. So it's more about getting rid

638
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 3: of government red tape for them, whereas for scientists and

639
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: researchers are like, no, it's unnecessary, we have better models.

640
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: I love it when you're like this is a good

641
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: thing that's happening, but then you can trace it to

642
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 2: some nefarious reason that you couldn't even imagine.

643
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's actually genuinely shocking the amount of

644
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: like makeup and stuff that isn't cruelty free, like yeah,

645
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: so much so much like say you go to like

646
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: a Sephora Alta and you you filter something out, you

647
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: say cruelty free. It takes away like eighty percent of

648
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: the products. How is that still a thing?

649
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 5: Right?

650
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, Although the fact that there's still cruelty free is

651
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 3: because of who we're talking about today.

652
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: This whole time, I've been imagining that little like rabbit

653
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: symbol on skincare, like, oh yeah, not animal testing.

654
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And there is, I believe, as a result of

655
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 3: public pressure, a fair amount of red tape involved in

656
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 3: animal testing. You have to go through a sort of

657
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: independent committee called an Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee

658
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: that has to include at least one veterinarian and at

659
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 3: least one person who isn't part of the institution doing

660
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: the testing. Animal rights groups point out that this is

661
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: essentially self regulation and doesn't work. Animal testing people say

662
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 3: that they're often writing like eighty page reports and it's

663
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: far from a rubber stamp affair.

664
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: Reddit is full of people who are.

665
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 3: Can animal testing or claim do and are saying like, actually,

666
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 3: it's super ethical.

667
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: Now. On the other hand, as.

668
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about at the end of these episodes,

669
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: places are still getting caught doing just absolutely nightmarish shit.

670
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 3: The push towards standards of animal welfare led to the

671
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 3: three hours of animal testing, and this might be as

672
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 3: much bullshit as the like reduce, reuse, recycle thing, where

673
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: like they're trying to get us to do it, but

674
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: then they're like, you know, bombing Iran or whatever, like

675
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: black rain on Turan. But the three hours of animal testing, replace, reduce, refine?

676
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: Is there a way to get this data without animal testing?

677
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: Replace it? Reduce, use the fewest possible animals, refine how

678
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: can we reduce the suffering of the animals we use?

679
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 3: This does seem to be what the modern researchers are

680
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: trying to do because replaces the single most important in

681
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: the first one.

682
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: Refined sounds evil to me, though I don't know why.

683
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 3: I'm just like, okay, yeah, I mean actually some of

684
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 3: that is like literally like can we give them anesthetic?

685
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: Like does it fuck up? Are like because later we're

686
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: going to talk about people being found guilty of not

687
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 3: bothering to use anesthesia when they euthanize dogs who have

688
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 3: caught minor injuries from like a couple years ago. Well

689
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: after the campaign we're talking about, so like the refine

690
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 3: is like meant to be, Like, how does this hurt

691
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: it less?

692
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: I see a.

693
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: So frustrating.

694
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: They just needed an R word, you know, I guess

695
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 2: refine works.

696
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

697
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: We need to like reject and refuse. I got some

698
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 2: good resist, yes.

699
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: And you know what time it is, It's time for rads. Rats.

700
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: All of our ads are rats. They are all I

701
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: got nothing. Here they are.

702
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: And we're back.

703
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: So the tables are turning. In two thousand and sixty

704
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: five percent of Americans thought animal testing was morally acceptable.

705
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: In September twenty twenty five, forty seven percent of Americans

706
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 3: think that it's acceptable and forty seven percent think it's

707
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: morally wrong. Animal rights campaigners they lost a lot of battles,

708
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 3: they earned a lot of condemnation from people, but they

709
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 3: seem to be winning this particular war, and the scientists

710
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: oddly are winning two because animal models really are just

711
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: that flawed and that is not where I expected the

712
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: story to go. But now that I've told you the

713
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 3: end of the story, I'm going to tell you the story.

714
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: Huntington Life Sciences was founded in the fifties in the UK,

715
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: which was part of Europe at some point. I keep

716
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 3: reading about these things where it's talking about the UK

717
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: and it's like blah blah blah Europe and I'm like,

718
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 3: what are they talking?

719
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: Oh right, pretty Brexit. Yeah, I can't even imagine there

720
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: was a time where UK consider themselves Europe.

721
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: I know, I'm like Europe would have them. So hunting

722
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: In Life Sciences HLS is what I'm going to call it,

723
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 3: mostly because there's no T. Well, there's one T in Huntington,

724
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: but I wantin but I wanted to be hunting Tin

725
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: and I have misspelled it so many times in the

726
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 3: past week. It started off as a contract research firm.

727
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: It still is one, while they changed their name soon enough.

728
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 3: It was the largest biomedical research company in Europe, the

729
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 3: third largest in the world. They vivisected the most animals

730
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 3: in Europe.

731
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: Every day.

732
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: You want bunnies vivisected, these are your guys. Five hundred

733
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 3: animals a day are dying in this place, and according

734
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 3: to the mostly people who hate them who I read,

735
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 3: it's like all comers. Some of it's like, let's stop cancer,

736
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 3: and some of it's like, oh, let's see what happens

737
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: with Bunny when you do this to it.

738
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: Congratulations to the company for doing the most. Yeah, I know,

739
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: I know.

740
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: Animal rights people never really liked this place. And in

741
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: the seventies someone burned a bunch of cars outside the facility,

742
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: and in the eighties someone went undercover with a camera

743
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 3: to reveal what was going on. But the big break

744
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 3: was in nineteen ninety seven when Channel four of the BBC,

745
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: which I think is the last one. I think they

746
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 3: only got four of them, it ran a documentary about

747
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 3: the place. Later in the story, there's this thing that

748
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: like relies on the cops knowing that the activists are

749
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 3: going to be watching a certain TV station that night,

750
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: and I'm like, how the fuck do they know that?

751
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, right, it's the nineties, it's the BBC.

752
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 3: There's only four of them. Like anyway, big break comes.

753
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: Channel four runs a documentary about the place with undercover

754
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 3: footage that shows people who work there just fucking punching

755
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 3: dogs in the face stuff that just really looks bad,

756
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: and a lot of people who contracted with HLS were like, wait,

757
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: what the fuck? We just wanted to find out if

758
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: this like makes bunnies sad, and they cut ties. Two

759
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 3: employees were actually arrested for violating the Protection of Animals

760
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: Act and Hunting's license was cut, which I believe is

761
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 3: the only time the UK ever actually did that to

762
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: a company for mistreating animals, at least as of two

763
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: thousand and five. I love researching old things because it's

764
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 3: like and this is the most that has ever been

765
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: and I'm like, this book is forty yearyears old, but

766
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 3: no one is actually going to tell me what's happened,

767
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 3: since it's hard to search that, and especially these days

768
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: now that search has gone to garbage hell nightmare, and

769
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 3: I have to use like three different search engines every.

770
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: Time I want to check something.

771
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: So the share price dropped to less than half of

772
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 3: what it was just from this documentary. HLS had one

773
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: US facility in New Jersey, and an undercover journalist and

774
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: credit where it's due she was affiliated with PEDA went

775
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: there and filmed shit there, including vivisection, in this case

776
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 3: doing an autopsy of a living monkey, and you think

777
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: to yourself, autopsy. Isn't that a word for dead things?

778
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: Right?

779
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 3: HLS sued the shit out of PEDA for this, accusing

780
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: them of racketeering, which is sort of odd because in

781
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: order to be a racketeer you have to be making profit. Yeah,

782
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 3: PETA settled out of court and agreed to stop showing

783
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 3: people what they've seen. PETA as an organization was to

784
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 3: organization e to go toe to toe with an international

785
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: biomedical company.

786
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: No, they just yell at you on the street. I know.

787
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 3: This is so frustrating, is that like there's actually going

788
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: to be at the very end of pretty good, Like

789
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: someone from PETE is going to come in and do

790
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 3: something good too. PETA just stick to undercover investigations.

791
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: PETA.

792
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: Some grassroots folks stepped up and it started maybe with

793
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: some folks who are running a campaign against a kennel

794
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: that was breeding dogs that would go on to be

795
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 3: tortured and or studied depending on who you ask, but

796
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 3: I probably both at HLS. This place was called Consort Kennels.

797
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: This is over in England, and the main thing that

798
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: these protesters hit upon is they're like, all right, and

799
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 3: this is one that there's a lot of lessons for

800
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 3: any activist of any campaign to be learned from the

801
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 3: studying this particular movement. These protesters were like, you know

802
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 3: what matters here is consistency. We can't just do one

803
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 3: off protests and be like we did it. We got

804
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 3: to put it up on Instagram and get the likes

805
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 3: and now we're going home. Their goal was that they

806
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: were like, We're going to stay outside this place from

807
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 3: six thirty am to six thirty pm every day until

808
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 3: they shut the place down for good. And the protest

809
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 3: got large and they got spicy, and they got spicy

810
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 3: in a way that you only read about when you

811
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 3: read about England in the late nineties, because the consequences

812
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: for their actions are not as big as the consequences would.

813
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: Appear to be.

814
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: People would break in and rescue dogs at these protests.

815
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: At one point two hundred and fifty people broke through

816
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 3: the fence in the middle of the day before being

817
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: driven back by the police. They would set the fence

818
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 3: on fire with some regularity, and the protest worked, and

819
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: I think like a year into it, Consort Kennels shuddered

820
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 3: for good owing to the increased security costs and Paul McCartney,

821
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: first time he's ever been on this podcast.

822
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: I think, enter Paul.

823
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sir Paul McCartney.

824
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sir Paul McCartney, and Sir Linda McCartney, because I

825
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 3: just assume she gets to be a sir. Also, yes,

826
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: donated a bunch of money eight pounds to buy the

827
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 3: dogs from the place so that they could live good lives.

828
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: Yes, so many songs about dogs. I swear to God

829
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: that makes sense. Loves a dog, named themselves after the

830
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: wrong animal. You had a three legged dog. That's what

831
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 2: I think Ram is about. And I just learned that

832
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: Jet the song by Wings about a dog. Yeah. I

833
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: don't know very many Beatles' songs.

834
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 3: The problem was that I was like, I was trying

835
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 3: to do that thing David Graeber talks about all the time,

836
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 3: where like one culture develops in contrast to another culture.

837
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 3: They have to like, I'm not like that culture, so

838
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 3: they have to like develop specifically a creative refuse. That's

839
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 3: not the term that I think Graber was using, but yeah,

840
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 3: I'll go with that. So I was like, that's my parents' generation.

841
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 3: I don't listen to the Beatles. I listened to the

842
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: Door Wait a second, I listen to employd hold on

843
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 3: what's going on. I'm a hypocrite, but Paula Linda McCartney

844
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 3: saved a lot of dogs. The protesters moved immediately onto

845
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 3: the next target, and this time they found a place

846
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: that bred cats for research, so you can't claim that

847
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: they are single pet issue. Hundreds of people were showing

848
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: up for the cats. Even though no one likes cats,

849
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 3: they were willing to show up for the cats. That's

850
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 3: how I'm going to try and troll you. Now, I

851
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 3: love cats. I actually always thought I'd be a cat person,

852
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: not a dog person. But it turns out that I

853
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: am very glad I have a dog.

854
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: But I transitioned. Oh interesting. Yeah. It wasn't until I

855
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: had a cat that I realized that cats were superior,

856
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 2: because before I had a dog, and I was scared

857
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: of cats because I slept over at a friend's house

858
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: and woke up with a cat on my chest staring

859
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: at my face, and I was like, this is like

860
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: a demon. But then I got a cat at my

861
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 2: house and it was like a demon, but I loved him.

862
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 3: That makes sense. Whereas a dog is more like a dog.

863
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, dogs are just like yeah, but it's cool to

864
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: hear about dog people, you know, standing up for cats.

865
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

866
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, my friend Sarah's cats are like the sweetest princes

867
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: in the world to me. Yeah, but I'm a dog person.

868
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 2: I love cats.

869
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 3: There's a cat that sleeps on my chest regularly, and

870
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 3: I really it makes me happy every time Renshaw can't

871
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 3: sleep fully on my chest, and so said he has

872
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: to put his chin on my chest every time. I

873
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 3: was reading this and I was like, Oh, everything's real complicated.

874
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 3: I just like, look over to my dog, mean you, bud.

875
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 3: So this place is breeding cats for research. Hundreds of

876
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 3: people show up, and I think this is where they

877
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: started doing more of the secondary targeting. They started going

878
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: to the employee's houses to pick it outside where they lived.

879
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 3: Dozens of people kept getting arrested for doing this kind

880
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 3: of thing. One time, six hundred people tried to storm

881
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 3: the place to rescue all the cats in mass but

882
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 3: were stopped by hundreds of riot police. That is a

883
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: fantastic action. Well, a ton of people got arrested, actually

884
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 3: not immediately at it. I think a lot of them.

885
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 3: They showed up like the next day for the next protest,

886
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: and the cops are like you and you and you

887
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 3: you look familiar.

888
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was bashing your head in with a baton yesterday.

889
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a lot of bashing of heads in

890
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 3: and this whole thing. And whenever I'm like, oh, they

891
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 3: were just having fun, silly, no consequences. Several of the

892
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 3: like one Shack activist is going to starve to death

893
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: in jail, Like people like Shack face some consequences. On

894
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 3: April eighteenth, Still nineteen ninety eight, I believe a thousand

895
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 3: people showed up with battering rams to take down the

896
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 3: fence of this cat farm despite someone was already in

897
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: prison for a year trying to rescue the cats. And

898
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 3: they were like, I don't care six hundred of us

899
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: for doing it in broad daylight with batterying rams. Cops attacked,

900
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,479
Speaker 3: they broke someone's leg, they knocked someone else unconscious, someone

901
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 3: had a heart attack.

902
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: Why are they so bad at like everything.

903
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: Which the protester No, the cops, Yeah, they're not really

904
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 3: on the right side of stuff.

905
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: They're like, this is okay, this is okay to happen.

906
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, someone inside the facility leaked documents out to show

907
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 3: how bad the conditions for the cats were, and just

908
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 3: like again, I'm gonna like mostly skim over the animal cruelty.

909
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 3: I don't like the things that like focus on that,

910
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 3: but I do think it's worth remembering. It's like, so

911
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 3: the cats are cannibalizing their own kittens because they are

912
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: so stressed and mistreated. Protesters step up their intensity. The

913
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 3: owners of the place are getting harassed. One of them

914
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 3: had his car set on fire. Four different insurance companies

915
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 3: were like, you know what, yeah, we're not going to

916
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 3: ensure you anymore. Like, no, I'm not touching you ally

917
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: insurance what oh yeah, no, totally yeah, so the insurance

918
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: companies are all helping them out. No, they're just chicken shit, right,

919
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 3: They're just like, I don't like risk, that's my whole thing.

920
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 3: Local businesses and bars they called pubs in the ye

921
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 3: oldie English version of the world. But I think it's

922
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 3: like they don't actually, you know, like the British, if

923
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 3: you get in trouble, you go to gail. Have you

924
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 3: ever seen this, right? I think pub is probably pronounced bar.

925
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 3: It's just a misspelling, like gail. This is totally funny.

926
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: Everyone is happy.

927
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: It's like old ruins or something.

928
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, local businesses and pubs would not let the owners

929
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 3: go to them anymore because they were sick of protesters

930
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 3: showing up outside every time the owners would show up.

931
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,720
Speaker 2: When you get the pubs against you really lost.

932
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. The arrested liberationist Barry Horn was on hunger strike

933
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,919
Speaker 3: and a group calling themselves the Animal Rights Militia put

934
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 3: out a statement saying that they would start assassinating people

935
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 3: like the owner of the farm if liberationist Barry Horn

936
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: died of starvation and the Animal Rights Militia ARM they

937
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 3: like do and don't exist. The Animal Liberation Front exists.

938
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 3: It's what people call themselves when they liberate animals. It's

939
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 3: not really like it's like a leaderless resistance thing. It's

940
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 3: not like they're like, I'm an ALF person, this is

941
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 3: my job, you know.

942
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: But if you steal an animal from a.

943
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 3: Place, you're like ALF that day, right, right. So it's

944
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 3: not like there's like a secret coalition called ARM in

945
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 3: fucking England at the time. Basically, the people who are

946
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 3: like the ALF is soft because in the ALF there's

947
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 3: a tenant that you have to use all precautions necessary

948
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 3: to avoid hurting human or non human animals in your actions.

949
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: That seems like a good tenant.

950
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably served both the ALF and the ALF

951
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 3: real well animal rights militia arm. It's what you sign

952
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: letters when you want to sound tough, right, that's my rude.

953
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 3: I'm going to get a letter from them for we're

954
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 3: doing this episode. We'll find out horn the prison strike,

955
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 3: the hunger striker very nearly died. He dropped to one

956
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 3: hundred and twelve pounds, hearing in one ear, and he

957
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 3: hovered near a coma. He eventually gave up on the

958
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 3: brink of death. Only a few years later, he was

959
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 3: back in prison serving eighteen years for arson against vivisectors,

960
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 3: and he went back on hunger strike and he died.

961
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 3: He actually called off his hunger strike after sixty eight days,

962
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 3: but he didn't recover. He died in prison as a

963
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 3: result of liver failure on November fifth, two thousand and one.

964
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 3: Since the cat breeders didn't shut down the people, the

965
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: protesters started spreading to secondary targets anyone who did business

966
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 3: with them. And this was going to later become Shack's

967
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 3: big tactical innovation, the one that is both effective and

968
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 3: also wildly less popular.

969
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: You know what I'm thinking, Like, this is like the nineties.

970
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, some of this sounds like they're taking IRA tactics.

971
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 2: You know.

972
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 3: It's like, yes, they are. They like call themselves like

973
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: at one point it's like the Visional something something, and

974
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, okay, ah, the provos yeah with all

975
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 3: the same like oh, man, like I have avoided covering

976
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 3: most twentieth century Ireland passed like nineteen twenty one or so, yeah,

977
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: because I'm.

978
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: Like, man, I don't want to get into that. I

979
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 2: did do some.

980
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 3: Hunger strike episodes, but yeah, yeah, between the hunger strikes

981
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 3: calling themselves provos.

982
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 2: No, they're moving up cars.

983
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 3: God yeah, probably a fun ton of Irish too, just

984
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: literally out of there. They're all English and you know,

985
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 3: mixed classes. So they also started attacking people. And later

986
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 3: people are gonna say the animal rights protesters only ever

987
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 3: attacked one person. We'll get to that later, but I

988
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 3: counting this as an attack. And this is where I

989
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 3: start being like you lost me here. The owner's wife

990
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 3: was out on a walk when two animal rights people

991
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: caught her and changed her to a fence and threatened her.

992
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: Nope, whoa nope, yeah, nope, not cool.

993
00:52:58,920 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: Yep.

994
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 3: Left out of almost every version of the story that

995
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 3: I've read, and I don't know what they threatened her with,

996
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 3: but like, nah.

997
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: Don't change people to a fence.

998
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 3: That's not cool, especially not women that you then threaten.

999
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 2: If you're trying to like not have people or you know,

1000
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 2: creatures being held against their will seems a little like

1001
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 2: chaining someone up.

1002
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, I know, and you just kind of

1003
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 3: get this thing. The fundamental difference I have between me

1004
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 3: and like a diehard Vegan is that, like, if you're

1005
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 3: looking at this at like I am trying to stop

1006
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 3: the Holocaust, right, there's like nothing that is off the table,

1007
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 3: And that's not how I view it. And I dislike

1008
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 3: that framing strongly. Even though I love and care about animals,

1009
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 3: I do think it is a fundamentally different thing. And

1010
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: the whole like meat is murder, you will be treated accordingly. Thing,

1011
00:53:54,640 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 3: not into it, but if that's what you believe, and

1012
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 3: then you're going to do whatever whatever it takes, you know,

1013
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 3: And the messy thing is that worked.

1014
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. The owner was like, I.

1015
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: Am retiring now, I'm sixty one years old. It is

1016
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 3: time to retire.

1017
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 2: Back when you could retire, yeah, I know, had some

1018
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 2: British pension.

1019
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff where they keep talking

1020
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 3: about being like they came after pensioners, and I was like, ah,

1021
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 3: this is like a British class thing that I'm like,

1022
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:34,399
Speaker 3: does it translate well to capitalist America? And at sixty one,

1023
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: the book I read says this is heavily implies he

1024
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 3: closes it after this attack on his wife. He told

1025
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 3: the press, no, the attacks only emboldened me. But I'm

1026
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 3: sixty one and it's time to retire, which is actually

1027
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,959
Speaker 3: even for Britain early retirement. So he is just trying

1028
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 3: to save face when he says this, after three hundred

1029
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 3: and fifty arrests, twenty one people imprisoned, a lot of

1030
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 3: people hospitalized, a police budget of two point eight million pounds.

1031
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 3: The ca farm was shut down and it was the

1032
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 3: only research cat breeding farm in the UK.

1033
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: Do you know how long the campaign was like for

1034
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 2: this to happen? How long were they doing this? Ooh,

1035
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 2: it seems like not very long.

1036
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 3: This one might have been a year or two. It

1037
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 3: was longer than the Dog one.

1038
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's at least a year, right.

1039
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the big differences between them and the

1040
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 3: Dog one. I think my inference is that with the

1041
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 3: Dog one, they were paying for their own private security,

1042
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 3: and in this one the state was paying for it

1043
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 3: two point eight million pounds. The police protected this place

1044
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 3: as like basically their own private security. That's why they

1045
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 3: lasted as long as they did under this pressure of

1046
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 3: like thousands of activists being like, could you please stop

1047
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:49,760
Speaker 3: having a Cannibal Cat Farm.

1048
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 2: That's kind of a cool band name.

1049
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 3: Oh god, I so that's true. And I hate when

1050
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 3: people because I have Magpie's law, which is that anytime

1051
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 3: anyone says that would be a good band name, wrong,

1052
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: but you're right, that would be a good band.

1053
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 2: Or an album at least Cannibal Cat Farm. Yeah.

1054
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 3: So anyway, they decide after they've shut down the cat

1055
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 3: Farm that now they're going to go after the big

1056
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 3: guy HLS, and we're gonna talk about that on Wednesday.

1057
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 3: But it's like the fact that this one ends with

1058
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 3: the like and here's the don't do this one, kids,

1059
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 3: is gonna come up.

1060
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 2: More Save the Big Batty anyway? Yeah, I think you

1061
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: want to plug Well. I'm writing a new book called

1062
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: Live Through This, an Anarchist Antidote to Despair, and it's

1063
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 2: going to be coming out, I guess either in the

1064
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: fall or early next year, so I was shuit check

1065
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 2: that out. Pluto books about trying to figure out like

1066
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 2: how to get out of this shit that we're in,

1067
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 2: which my argument is that we are sucked into the

1068
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 2: spectacle of politics that distracts us from the shit that

1069
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 2: we do. We actually know how to make life. So

1070
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 2: that's coming out in the near future. I'd love people

1071
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 2: to read that. And I also have the writing collective

1072
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 2: called CAW.

1073
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 3: I was going to force you to plug this if

1074
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 3: you didn't do it yourself. Yeah, please tell me about call.

1075
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 2: I formed a writer's collective with Karla Joi Bergman, Danny

1076
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 2: Burlison and Vicky Osterweil and the four of us sort of.

1077
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 2: We just have banded together to support each other through

1078
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 2: the independent work of writing, which is very hard to

1079
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 2: make any kind of living doing. And we're all set

1080
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 2: in competition with each other, so we thought, let's collectivize this,

1081
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 2: so we share all of our work in this one place.

1082
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 2: You can subscribe. If you pay to subscribe, you get

1083
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,479
Speaker 2: to be on our discord where I do a book

1084
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 2: club pretty regularly and Vicky does movie nights. Carla and

1085
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 2: Danny do writing workshops, and you have more access to

1086
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: other stuff too, So check that out. It's cos shiny

1087
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 2: things dot com.

1088
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 3: Would you say that you're a rather than a collective, Yes, we.

1089
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 2: Are a murder. Yes, that is better. I should have

1090
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: said that an autonomous, self managed murder. Yeah, there's nothing

1091
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: criminally actionable. We're talking about a group of crows. Yes. No, No,

1092
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 2: I don't believe in murder except for meat, which is murder.

1093
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: You just try to keep arm off your back. Yeah,

1094
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 2: I hate blood mouths. Oh, I don't miss that fucking phrase.

1095
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: I mean that word is so good though. I mean,

1096
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, but then.

1097
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 3: You ended up with like all my friends started a

1098
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 3: bloodmouth manner when they moved out.

1099
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 2: Of the vegan house. What a fuck you? Yeah? Yeah?

1100
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 2: What do I want to plug? I don't know. Is

1101
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: it take care of each other? I mean, you have

1102
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 2: a great catalog of books that people should read, and yeah,

1103
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: I have a bunch of books.

1104
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 3: I need to write more of them, but people can

1105
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 3: go read them.

1106
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: So you got anything you want to plug?

1107
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: Nah, you covered it. Take care of each other.

1108
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 2: Go say hi to a dog and or a cat.

1109
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 2: The cat won't say hi back.

1110
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: No, we'll only pet them if you give you consent.

1111
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 2: That's right.

1112
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 3: No, I read a lot of stuff that says animals

1113
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 3: can't consent. I read so much monstrous shit this week.

1114
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, my dog Truman says that is actually not true.

1115
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 2: You know, you put your hand in front of them

1116
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: first and let them decide if you want you to

1117
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: touch them.

1118
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: Quite literally, Truman, you put your hand in front of her,

1119
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: and if she wants you to pet her, she will

1120
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 1: put her head down and give consent. If she does

1121
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,959
Speaker 1: not do that, she does not want you to pet her,

1122
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: and that is not okay.

1123
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, a genius simple.

1124
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1125
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we'll see you all on Wednesday. Bye bye.

1126
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 5: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1127
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 5: pool Zone Media. The more podcasts on pool Zone Media

1128
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,919
Speaker 5: our website, Come zonemedia dot com, or check us out

1129
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 5: on the five or radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

1130
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 5: you get your podcasts.

1131
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 3: M HM