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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Aaron. Today we're bringing you an episode of

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Speaker 1: a podcast that I love, What Went Wrong. Every week,

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Speaker 1: the hosts Chris and Lizzie take a single movie and

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Speaker 1: dig very very deep into the messy, miraculous story of

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Speaker 1: how it got made. This episode is their dive into

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy one Jane Whilder Extravaganza Willy Wonka and

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Speaker 1: the Chocolate Factory and I got to be the guest. Chris,

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Speaker 1: Lizzy and I cover everything you could ever want to

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Speaker 1: know about this movie. Seriously, it's very long, including many

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Speaker 1: of my super nerdy points about what I think makes

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Speaker 1: it work. After this episode first stared on their channel,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I heard from several friends who listen.

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Speaker 1: Turns out lots of actors and filmmakers and movie buffs

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Speaker 1: subscribe to What Went Wrong with good reason. If you

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Speaker 1: like this episode, I highly recommend checking out their stuff,

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Speaker 1: especially their episodes on Shakespeare and Love and Cabaret. The

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Speaker 1: hosts are just really smart and passionate and great researchers storytellers.

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Speaker 1: Check it out. Also an important request from me, I

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Speaker 1: have loved making this roll doll show. If you want

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Speaker 1: to hear updates on the show and what I'm up

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Speaker 1: to and make sure you don't miss anything. Please go

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Speaker 1: to listen to Parallax dot com slash contact and sign

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Speaker 1: up for the email list. Again, it's listen to Parallax

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Speaker 1: dot com slash contact, or you can just find that

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Speaker 1: link in the episode notes. Okay, here's me and Willie

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Speaker 1: Wonka on What Went Wrong?

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Speaker 2: Enjoy your favorite podcasting for you.

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Speaker 3: Making a What do you get when you don't have

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Speaker 3: a script?

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Speaker 1: Shooting is rushed, and your deadline out.

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Speaker 4: Slipped, final cut is due, and it's making you. We

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Speaker 4: tell that come they can't sleep.

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Speaker 3: I don't like the sound of that. Thank you.

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Speaker 5: Whether you are watching.

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Speaker 3: The face is such?

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Speaker 1: What like listency and action?

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome back to What Went Wrong? Your favorite

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Speaker 3: podcast full stop that just so happens to be about

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Speaker 3: movies and how it's nearly impossible to make them, let

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Speaker 3: alone a good one. Let alone a warning to all

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Speaker 3: parents that it is your job to shape your child

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Speaker 3: into a good person, and the only time you can

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Speaker 3: do it is when they are a child. And if

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Speaker 3: you fail, your child may be incinerated in a goose

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Speaker 3: egg garbage inferno and it will be your fault. And

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Speaker 3: also Candy. I am one of your hosts, Lizzie Bassett

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Speaker 3: here as always with Chris Winterbauer. Chris, what do you

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Speaker 3: have for us today?

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Speaker 4: Today Lizzie, we are diving into a movie that begs

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Speaker 4: the question what if we did seven in a chocolate

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Speaker 4: factory but with kids?

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Speaker 6: And we are.

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Speaker 4: Joined by a very special guest. So we are talking

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Speaker 4: about the nineteen seventy one adaptation of Charlie and the

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Speaker 4: Chocolate Factory called Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. We'll

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Speaker 4: get into the title, but we have an incredible guest today.

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Speaker 4: We are joined by the man behind a podcast I've

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Speaker 4: been binging for the last seven days, the Secret World

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Speaker 4: of Role Doll, which is amazing and we will have

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Speaker 4: posted on our Patreon and whatnot before this episode, so

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Speaker 4: hopefully you guys have listened. Please welcome Aaron Tracy to

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Speaker 4: the podcast. Aaron Tracy is a best selling writer, producer.

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Speaker 4: He's worked across nearly every form of entertainment, from television

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Speaker 4: to audio dramas to narrative nonfiction. As we mentioned, he

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Speaker 4: is the creator and writer and narrator great voice of

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Speaker 4: the Secret World of roll Doll, which is a remarkable

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Speaker 4: look into the Zelig esque. I would say life of

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Speaker 4: the world's most or one of the worlds most successful

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Speaker 4: children's books authors. Aaron, Welcome to What Went Wrong?

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: That was quite an introduction Zelig. You're absolutely right. I

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Speaker 1: should have said Zelig. I think I said four Scump

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Speaker 1: on my show, but he was the Zealig figure.

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Speaker 4: It's a more contemporary reference. Yes, it's fair.

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Speaker 1: I prefers Aleg. Yeah. No, I appreciate you listening to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 4: It's an amazing mini series that you think how many

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Speaker 4: episodes have been released as of today? Is it nine

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Speaker 4: so far?

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Speaker 1: Or is it nine so far?

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Speaker 4: You know, you've listened to the first episode and it

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Speaker 4: ends with effectively and it's going to get crazier and

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Speaker 4: then that's kind of how you end every single episode.

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Speaker 4: And yet somehow Doll ups himself in every episode. So

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Speaker 4: we're going to get into the details of his life

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Speaker 4: in a few moments. But I want to start Aaron

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Speaker 4: with Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. So let's start quickly,

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Speaker 4: Lizzy with you, because you can provide a template here

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Speaker 4: for Aaron. What we like to do is start with

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Speaker 4: you know, what's your relationship to this movie? Had you

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Speaker 4: seen it before? And what were your thoughts upon watching

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Speaker 4: or rewatching it for the podcast? So Lizzy, maybe you

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Speaker 4: can dive in to begin.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Yes, of course i'd seen this before, as I

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Speaker 3: think all children I assume have. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: they're still showing this to children, but they certainly did

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Speaker 3: when we were growing up. I'd seen it many times

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Speaker 3: as a kid. I don't think I had watched this

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Speaker 3: as an adult at all. And there were certain portions

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Speaker 3: of the movie that are so like burned into my

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Speaker 3: mind's eye, like when they first open the you know,

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Speaker 3: the door into the candy room or whatever he calls it,

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Speaker 3: the chocolate room, that I will see in my head

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Speaker 3: playing on the back of my eyelids as I die,

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Speaker 3: like I know exactly what it looks like. I know

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Speaker 3: what the mushrooms look like, I know what that disgusting

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Speaker 3: chocolate river looks like. But then there's whole sequences like

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Speaker 3: the entire beginning of this movie. I was like David

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Speaker 3: and I were like, are we watching the right thing?

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Speaker 3: It's a slow start. It's a slower start than I remembered,

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Speaker 3: and a very very weird start. Charlie's teacher, David pointed out,

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Speaker 3: looks like you should be in a Pink Floyd music video.

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Speaker 3: And there's never been a more apt description of a

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Speaker 3: man and his teeth I think than that. I guess,

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Speaker 3: you know. I always kind of knew that, like this

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Speaker 3: is a children's movie slash book for four or adults,

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Speaker 3: but I didn't know how much that was the case

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Speaker 3: until rewatching it as an adult, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if this is for kids at all.

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Speaker 3: This is horrifying, truly genuinely scary, especially when they're in

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Speaker 3: the tunnel. Man Gene Wilder is so fun and holds

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Speaker 3: this movie together in a way that if you didn't

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Speaker 3: have him, I don't know how watchable this is, just

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Speaker 3: because of how bonkers and all over the place it is,

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Speaker 3: and all the other actors are wonderful. I particularly love

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Speaker 3: Roy Kaneer, and he looks so much like his son

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Speaker 3: that I was like, wait a minute, I know, I know, crazy.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy all of us to say I really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I ever want to watch it again.

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Speaker 3: It's just bizarre and it's scary, especially as a parent,

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Speaker 3: because it really does feel like the moral of this

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Speaker 3: movie is like the time to make a good person

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Speaker 3: is when they are a child, and if you miss

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Speaker 3: that window, you're screwed. And it's a weird moral. And

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Speaker 3: Willy Wonka is a sinister character, like even at the

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Speaker 3: end when he says, you know that I've been searching

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Speaker 3: for my replacement and the only one who can do

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Speaker 3: it as a child, essentially because they won't question me.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, Okay, I don't know what you're

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Speaker 3: trying to say here. Anyway, that's my take is uh,

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Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. It's weird, and that boat ride might

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Speaker 3: give me nightmares.

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Speaker 4: All right, Aaron, we'll kick it to you. You've been

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Speaker 4: knee deep in roll Doll for I'm assuming months at

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Speaker 4: this point. Yeah, So how did it feel rewatching this?

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Speaker 1: So it's one of those movies that I think if

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Speaker 1: you had asked me when the last time I saw

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Speaker 1: it was, I probably would have said I don't know,

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Speaker 1: five six years ago. But rewatching it ahead of this podcast,

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Speaker 1: I realized that I have not seen it since I

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Speaker 1: was a little kid. But I must have watched it

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Speaker 1: a lot when I was a little kid, because so

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Speaker 1: much of it felt familiar. I mean, as I was

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Speaker 1: making my show, I definitely watched a bunch of clips,

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Speaker 1: and we include some clips on the show, but watching

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Speaker 1: it from beginning to end, yeah, I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: done that since I was a kid. I was blown away.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was fantastic. It's so dark, so surprising,

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Speaker 1: and I totally agree. By the way, Gene Wilder's performance

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Speaker 1: is everything. He gives the most confident, strangest performance that

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Speaker 1: I can remember seeing.

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Speaker 3: No, please stop right exactly.

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Speaker 1: We'll jump into it. I'm sure we'll talk about it later,

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Speaker 1: but it is really a performance for the ages. It is,

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Speaker 1: you know. Well, I'm sure we'll talk a bunch about this,

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Speaker 1: but it is not what Doll envisioned. But it makes

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Speaker 1: the movie for me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: The two thousand and five version, as you discuss on

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Speaker 4: your show, Aaron, is a much more faithful adaptation to

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Speaker 4: the book, maybe not from a Wonka perspective, but structurally

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Speaker 4: and in terms of the focus and whatnot. And yet

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Speaker 4: this version feels so much more alive to me. Even

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Speaker 4: though the five version has the budget and Burton seems

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Speaker 4: like a natural fit for the material, et cetera, this

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Speaker 4: version is held together with scotch tape and popsicle sticks.

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Speaker 4: But my review is five words and it is Gene

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Speaker 4: Wilder is a star. And I actually think the casting

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Speaker 4: across the board is it's perfect in this movie. And

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Speaker 4: even though I think you can feel that they didn't

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Speaker 4: quite have the budget they needed to make this movie.

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Speaker 4: More on that later, I had a smile on my

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Speaker 4: face the entire time I was watching it, and maybe

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Speaker 4: it's nostalgia. I watched it a lot as a kid

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Speaker 4: as well. I hadn't seen it in a long time,

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Speaker 4: but it has something to it and I think I

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Speaker 4: have a sense of what that is, and we'll get

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Speaker 4: to it by the end. And I think even though Erin,

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Speaker 4: as you mentioned, Doll's feelings towards this film are at

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Speaker 4: best complicated in a way, I think it actually captures

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Speaker 4: the heart the Dollion, the dark Dollion, heart of what

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Speaker 4: his books try to convey better than many of the

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Speaker 4: other adaptations.

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Speaker 1: Of his work.

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Speaker 4: But let's get into it, because this one's going to

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Speaker 4: be pretty crazy.

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Speaker 3: I have one question that maybe you're going to answer,

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Speaker 3: but one of the biggest questions I had while watching

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Speaker 3: this movie was where are we? Because I'd never recognized

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Speaker 3: this as a kid, but like, they're clearly in England

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Speaker 3: or Europe somewhere, and it looks like it does not

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Speaker 3: look like America. Half of the people have British accents

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Speaker 3: for no reason. But then you are posed to still

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Speaker 3: believe that this is sort of small town America somewhere.

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Speaker 3: That is strange. It makes it kind of otherworldly and

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Speaker 3: alien in a way that I think ultimately works, but

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Speaker 3: was confusing as an adult watching this.

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Speaker 4: Well, Aaron, you can speak to this. I mean, the

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Speaker 4: book is set in an unnamed town, like the book

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Speaker 4: is never specified as anywhere in particular is my understanding.

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Speaker 1: But Wanka is, especially the way Gene Wilder portrays him,

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Speaker 1: is completely American. Yes, you know, I think a big

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Speaker 1: theme of this movie, very much of the book also

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Speaker 1: is that it's Doll's critique of American commercialism. You know,

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Speaker 1: Doll came from post war England, which was completely austere

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Speaker 1: to the wild excesses of nineteen fifties America. That's his

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Speaker 1: you know, biographical story, and he could not believe how

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Speaker 1: spoiled Americans were, and so that's very much what this

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Speaker 1: book is about. I mean, Charlie, is this really impoverished

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Speaker 1: English boy who is able to keep all of his

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Speaker 1: appetites in check. He is the opposite of spoil or materialistic,

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Speaker 1: and he's the one who triumphs. Right, He's the one

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Speaker 1: who wins. All the other children who very much lose,

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Speaker 1: are selfish and self involved and incredibly spoiled, and they're

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Speaker 1: completely wrecked by their American style appetites. So I think

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Speaker 1: you're right that it's not completely clear that a decision

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Speaker 1: was not made about where to set this. But because

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Speaker 1: Wonka is so American, and because of this larger theme

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Speaker 1: of anti commercialism, for me, it just it very much

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Speaker 1: feels like an indictment of America.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's get into it, because Lizzie, to your question,

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Speaker 4: I think the part of the reason it feels confused

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Speaker 4: is very much by necessity where they had to shoot

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Speaker 4: this movie. That's what I figured, And so let's dive

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Speaker 4: into that too, so really quickly the details. So Willy

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Speaker 4: Wonka on the Chocolate Factory is a I would describe

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Speaker 4: it as a fantasy comedy children's film directed by Mel Stewart.

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Speaker 4: It's based on a screenplay credited to Roldahl, based on

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Speaker 4: his book Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. It was produced

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Speaker 4: by David Wolper and Stan Margleize, and it stars, as

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Speaker 4: we've mentioned, Gene Wilder is Willy Wonka, Peter Ostrom as

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Speaker 4: Charlie Bucket, Jack Albertson is Grandpa Joe, Denise Nickerson as

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Speaker 4: Violet Beauregard, Julie don Cole as Ruk A Salt, Paris

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Speaker 4: Temon as Mike TV, Michael Bolner as Augustus Gloop, Rusty

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Speaker 4: Goff as the lead upa Lumpa, and many many more.

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Speaker 4: It was produced by Wolper Pictures, financed by Aaron, the

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Speaker 4: Quaker Oats Company, the Quaker Oats Company, Insane YEP, distributed

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Speaker 4: by Paramount Pictures. It was released in the United States

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Speaker 4: on June thirtieth, after premiering on June twenty eighth, nineteen

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Speaker 4: seventy one, and as always, the IMDb log line reads,

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Speaker 4: A poor but hopeful boy seeks one of the five

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Speaker 4: coveted golden tickets that will send him on a tour

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Speaker 4: of Willy Wonka's mysterious chocolate factory. Now a few sources,

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Speaker 4: obviously the secret world of roll Doll Guys, go listen.

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Speaker 4: It is a blast I powered through it in addition,

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Speaker 4: Pure Imagination, The Making of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory,

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Speaker 4: Mel Stewart's book on the film producer, a memoir by

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Speaker 4: David Wolper, Gene Wilder's memoir I Love this Name so much,

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Speaker 4: kiss Me like a Stranger. I Want it Now, A

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Speaker 4: memoir of life on the set of Willy Wonka and

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Speaker 4: the Chocolate Factory by you lead On Cole who plays

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Speaker 4: Rook Assault, Pure Imagination, The Story of Willy Wonka and

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Speaker 4: the Chocolate Factory of the two thousand and one documentary,

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Speaker 4: and many more articles, retrospectives, and interviews with those involved

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Speaker 4: in the film. So the question is, how did a

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Speaker 4: couple of not particularly well known Jewish creatives use American

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Speaker 4: commercialism to bring to life a controversial critique of American

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Speaker 4: commercialism by a powerful author with a history of anti

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Speaker 4: Semitic remarks, and what went wrong? So let's dive in. Guys,

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Speaker 4: there's a Aaron. I'm sure you are aware of this

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Speaker 4: apocryphal story or this warning in Hollywood never take pitches

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Speaker 4: from your kids like this. It is a trap that

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Speaker 4: executives fall into often. Is my kid had this idea

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Speaker 4: or my kid thought this thing was really good. So

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Speaker 4: now we're going to do it. And there's a famous

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Speaker 4: example that I love. Adam Goodman, when he was the

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Speaker 4: president of Paramount got the idea for a movie called

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Speaker 4: Monster Trucks, which I'm not sure if you guys ever

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Speaker 4: saw it, but it's about trucks that actually are powered

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Speaker 4: by monsters inside of them from his four year old son.

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Speaker 4: They made it into a movie. It didn't go well.

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Speaker 4: He is no longer the president of Paramoun Pictures. I've

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Speaker 4: not seen the movie. It may be fun Well, back

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Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty nine, there's a twelve year old girl

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Speaker 4: named Madeline and she falls in love with a book

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Speaker 4: called Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was published in nineteen

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Speaker 4: sixty four. And now, Aaron, you've mentioned in your show

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Speaker 4: that Doll's work, although originally published, you know, in the

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Speaker 4: early to mid sixties, struggled to find its footing initially.

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Speaker 4: And I'm speaking specifically about his children's book work. Perhaps

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Speaker 4: you can speak briefly about the beat it took for

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Speaker 4: him to find footing in the world of children's stories.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a funny thing. I mean, when we think

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Speaker 1: of Roald Dahl, I think everybody immediately thinks of the

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Speaker 1: children's books. But he didn't start writing children's books until

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Speaker 1: his mid forties. So he lived this huge life before that,

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Speaker 1: which included writing for adults. He wrote for The New Yorker,

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Speaker 1: these sort of sophisticated, urbane New York kind of stories.

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Speaker 1: He wrote for Playboy, he wrote like some hard r stories.

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Speaker 1: And then he did listen to his agent's advice and

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Speaker 1: start writing for children, but it didn't go well. His

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Speaker 1: very first book was James and the Giant Peach, but

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Speaker 1: it only sold a few thousand copies. Children's writers before

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Speaker 1: Dall did not write like Doll. They were not writing

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Speaker 1: these sort of dark stories that were you know. Dall

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Speaker 1: was writing like from the perspective of the children's id.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's children against cruel adults, it's children against monsters.

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Speaker 1: It recognized that the world is kind of a difficult,

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Speaker 1: sometimes evil place, and no one thought that that could

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Speaker 1: possibly work for children, but of course it does. Right,

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Speaker 1: children want to be treated like adults. Children appreciate that

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Speaker 1: someone can recognize that they're actually having big thoughts and

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Speaker 1: that they're seeing that the world can be cruel. But

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Speaker 1: it was just such a departure from what existed before

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Speaker 1: it that it took five years before James and the

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Speaker 1: Giant Peach became a hit. They actually took it over

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Speaker 1: to England because Dahl had a sort of an inclination

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Speaker 1: that British children might understand his books better, and he

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Speaker 1: was right. They published James and the Giant Peach in

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Speaker 1: England and it sold out three printings in our and

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Speaker 1: so then they republished it in America and it became

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Speaker 1: a hit there. And his next book was Charlie in

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Speaker 1: the Chocolate Factory, which became just a giant, giant hit.

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Speaker 3: That's so funny. I don't know why, but it makes

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Speaker 3: complete sense that British children would understand this. Yeah, kids

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Speaker 3: would not well.

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Speaker 4: And James and the Giant Peach, you know, just if

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Speaker 4: anybody hasn't read it in a while, features James's parents

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Speaker 4: were eaten by a raging rhinoceros. He's living with abusive

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Speaker 4: ants who are killed eventually, right, they're run over by

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Speaker 4: the peach. They're ravenous sharks, a giant bat, you know.

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Speaker 4: But then there's a lot of lovely elements as well.

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Speaker 4: It's complicated, which is what makes it great. And so

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Speaker 4: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is a hit. It sells

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Speaker 4: ten thousand copies in its first week in the United States.

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Speaker 4: Madeline reads the book three times and she does a varukasault.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: She goes up to her daddy and she says, Daddy,

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Speaker 4: make this book into a movie.

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Speaker 3: Make it do it. I want it now.

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Speaker 4: We don't know if she actually said it that way,

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Speaker 4: but she did say, Daddy, make this into a movie.

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Speaker 4: And fortunately for her, her dad wasn't in the nut business.

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Speaker 4: He was in the movie business. His name was Mel Stewart,

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Speaker 4: but he, like dl wasn't into children's stories. He directed

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Speaker 4: serious documents entries. So Mel Stewart was born in York

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Speaker 4: Stuart Solomon. It's a Jewish man. At this point, he's

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Speaker 4: in his early forties, and he'd produced a bunch of

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Speaker 4: great documentaries. Nineteen sixty four is Four Days in November,

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Speaker 4: which was nominated for Best Documentary Feature, and he'd started

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Speaker 4: to dip his toes into narrative feature films. But he's

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Speaker 4: making movies that are distinctly for adults. The first is

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty nine's If It's Tuesday, This Must be Belgium.

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Speaker 4: This is the Humorous Adventures of a group of American

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Speaker 4: tourists taking an eighteen day guided bus tour of nine

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Speaker 4: European countries and the nineteen seventies I Love My Wife.

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Speaker 4: I have never seen this movie that stars Elliott Gould.

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Speaker 4: It follows a quote successful young surgeon who has so

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Speaker 4: much in life that he becomes bored with his wife

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Speaker 4: and family and feeling empty, he goes through a series

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Speaker 4: of brief, meaningless affairs with attractive women. The point is

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Speaker 4: that the book doesn't seem to be a natural fit

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Speaker 4: for Stuart's sensibilities or vice versa. But what's so interesting

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Speaker 4: and what you get into so well in your podcast, Darin,

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Speaker 4: is that the same could be said for Roal Dahl

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Speaker 4: and his transition into making children's books. To our first

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Speaker 4: wind back the Clock, deep dive into the Man behind

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Speaker 4: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory role Dahl roll Dahl was

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Speaker 4: born in nineteen sixteen in Wales to Norwegian immigrant parents,

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Speaker 4: and he suffers a double tragedy early in his life.

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Speaker 4: His older sister dies when he's three, and then, as

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Speaker 4: you discuss on your show Erin, his father seems to

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Speaker 4: kind of lose the will to live and he does

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Speaker 4: not fight the pneumonia that he's contracted, and he passes

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Speaker 4: away within a few weeks of Doll's sister, but his

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Speaker 4: mom stays in the country because his father had believed

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Speaker 4: an English education was the greatest thing that you could

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Speaker 4: give your children. And then I do find it ironic

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Speaker 4: that so much of his writing has to do with

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Speaker 4: how miserable it is to be a child in the

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Speaker 4: English school system in so many ways. And so he

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Speaker 4: goes through his schooling and then he serves in the

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Speaker 4: Royal Air Force and erin. Maybe you can give us,

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Speaker 4: like just the brief insane whirlwind from Royal Air Force

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Speaker 4: brain trauma spy, sex spy in Washington, d C. Playing

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Speaker 4: cards with the President. Maybe we can hit some of

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Speaker 4: these lily pads for us briefly and go listen to

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Speaker 4: the show for more detail.

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Speaker 3: How closely tied are sex spy and playing cards with

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Speaker 3: the President? Are those the same thing?

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Speaker 4: Let's get through it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they are intertwined. Yeah. So Dahl, you know, as

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Speaker 1: I said before, he didn't start writing children's books until

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Speaker 1: his mid forties, so he lived all these different lives

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Speaker 1: before that. And that's how I sort of organize my podcast,

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Speaker 1: where each episode sort of takes us into one of

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Speaker 1: these worlds. So first he was a businessman for Shell Oil.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. Like his father's death was such

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Speaker 1: an encompassing, important, childhood defining moment for him, he was

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Speaker 1: constantly searching for what kind of man he was. Shell

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Speaker 1: Oil businessman didn't quite work out, but it did take

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Speaker 1: him to Africa. And when he was in Africa, he

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Speaker 1: would see all these planes flying overhead and he thought

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Speaker 1: that that maybe was the next adventure. That's what looks

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Speaker 1: good to him. So he just he got in a

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Speaker 1: car and he drove hundreds of miles, and even though

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Speaker 1: he had never been inside of a plane before, hevolunteered

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Speaker 1: for the Royal Air Force and he flew a bunch

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Speaker 1: of missions. You know, this is early in World War Two,

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Speaker 1: and he got shot down over and over again, and

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Speaker 1: one of the crashes was really, really bad. His face

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Speaker 1: went hard into the console in front of him so

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Speaker 1: badly that his nose sort of smacked back through his skull.

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Speaker 1: He had to get major plastic surgery. He had to

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Speaker 1: spend months in a hospital, and he started getting dizzy

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Speaker 1: spells and becoming unconscious at random times, and so his

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Speaker 1: superiors said you're done, you're grounded.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't fly a plane.

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Speaker 1: You cannot fly anymore.

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Speaker 4: He was also six foot six in these open cockpit planes,

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Speaker 4: right exactly sticking out like Karim Abdul Jabbar like this.

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Speaker 1: Is exactly like an NBA player in a convertible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so imagine that. Like his head was above the windshield,

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Speaker 1: so he was just being pounded by the air and

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Speaker 1: debris and bugs. It was, yeah, totally nuts. Not I guess,

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Speaker 1: a huge surprise that he would crash so much. But

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Speaker 1: his superiors saw something in him. He was he was

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Speaker 1: six foot six, He was really really handsome. He was

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Speaker 1: a great storyteller. He was incredibly charming, and so they

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Speaker 1: wanted to find something else for him. So they sent

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Speaker 1: him to Washington, DC to join a group called the Irregulars,

432
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: which was a sort of secret spy group for six

433
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: whose job it was to find a way to get

434
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: America to come into the war on Britain side right

435
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: to join the war. And they would try everything. They

436
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 1: would sabotage, they would create propaganda. The group was totally fascinating.

437
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 1: It was all of these young twenty somethings, all of

438
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: whom were incredibly handsome and happened to be great writers.

439
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: Dahl was in it, so was Noel Coward the Pirae,

440
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 1: So was Ian Fleming, who created James Bond. So is

441
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: David Ogilvie, who would go on to invent modern advertising

442
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: and be the inspiration for Don Draper on mad Men.

443
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: So you got to sort of think about like Don Draper,

444
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: James Bond, and Roald Dahl sitting at a George shown

445
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 1: bar late at night coming up with like sabotage ideas,

446
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of great ideas they had, And

447
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 1: then I mean, I can get into Doll's seductions if

448
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 1: you want, but yeah.

449
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 4: Let's talk about it briefly because it's so incongruous with

450
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 4: I think his children's work. But one of the things

451
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 4: that Doll, as you highlight on your show, was so

452
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 4: good at was women. He had a way with women.

453
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 4: He seemed to understand women, And you point out in

454
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 4: your show that he writes female characters very well, and

455
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 4: he often has lead female protagonists and it's not in

456
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 4: a token way.

457
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

458
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 4: Maybe that's from being raised without a father, you know,

459
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 4: and having a strong maternal presence in his life with

460
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 4: his sisters as well, yep, but yeah, please dive in

461
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 4: because it's fascinating.

462
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Doll was surrounded by women.

463
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 1: It was his mother and his sisters who raised him,

464
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: and so part of his job in the Irregulars was

465
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: to seduce women who were married to powerful men who

466
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: were not yet on the Allied side, in order to

467
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: sort of try to convince their husbands a whisper in

468
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: their husband's ear to get on the Allied side. So

469
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: there's a whole litany of powerful women that Doll supposedly seduced.

470
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: We know for sure, people like Gloria Vanderbilt, several others.

471
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 1: The most famous is probably Claire booth Loose, who was

472
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: married to Henry Loose. Henry Loose was probably the most

473
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: powerful man in media at the time. He owned Time

474
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: magazine and Life Magazine and so many others, and they

475
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: were often printing anti British pieces, which Churchill could not

476
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: abide because he's desperate to get America FDR specifically to

477
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: come into the war on Britain side. Claire booth Loose

478
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: in her own right was also incredibly influential. She was

479
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: a major journalist for places like Vanity Fair, She was

480
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: a huge playwright. She wrote the Broadway play The Women,

481
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 1: which was then adapted twice for the movies. Yeah, that

482
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: was her only play.

483
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: Wow.

484
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 1: And then she decided to run for Congress and became

485
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: a really rare woman in Congress. So she was incredibly powerful.

486
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: She was thirteen years older than Dahl, but Doll dated her.

487
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: They had a long term affair, and the idea was

488
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: to convince her husband and to convince her that this

489
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: was a good idea to enter the war.

490
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm thrilled that her legacy was not just had

491
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 3: an oopsie affair with a spy called roll Doll.

492
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: Oh, she was like a lot, deeply influential person.

493
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, that's so interesting.

494
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 3: It's also immediately as soon as you said he was

495
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: six but six, I was like, and we're sure this

496
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 3: is not just a Jacob E LOORDI he's so tall situation.

497
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 3: But it sounds like no.

498
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 4: He seems like he was quite the charmer on top

499
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 4: of it. And then he, you know, he meets his

500
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,239
Speaker 4: match in Patricia Neil, the actress who was younger than

501
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 4: him and who was very much on the rise when

502
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 4: they met. You know, I think she was twenty six, Aaron,

503
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 4: if I'm remembering your show correctly. Yeah, and she's not

504
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 4: interested in him. She's the first woman, you know. It

505
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 4: seems that he's run into who he can't woo. And eventually,

506
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 4: you know, she had had a very messy affair with

507
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 4: Gary Cooper and when that fell apart, he was the

508
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 4: love of her life, she you know, would say, and

509
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 4: she described sex with him as an act of God basically,

510
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: and with Gary Cooper, with Gary Cooper, yeah, who was

511
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 4: twenty years older than her. And when that fails, Dahl

512
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 4: eventually wears her down and she realizes I want to

513
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 4: have kids, and Dall would produce good looking kids, so okay,

514
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 4: and they get married and so begins a relationship that

515
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 4: I think without that relationship and the tragedy that follows,

516
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 4: you do not get Charlie in the Chocolate Factory and

517
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 4: his children's books in a lot of senses. But let's

518
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 4: save that for a moment because I want to get

519
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 4: back into our film timeline and we will return to

520
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 4: mister Doll in a second, because I want to tease

521
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 4: it out across the episode. So Mel Stewart has been

522
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 4: working with a producer named David Wolper, who is big

523
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: in the documentary space. And Mel Stewart is the artist,

524
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 4: and David Wolper is a salesman through and through, so

525
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: it's literally in his blood. His father is Irving Wolper,

526
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 4: who actually worked with Donald Trump. And here is a

527
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: quote from Trump the Art of the Deal, who described

528
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 4: Irving as quote one of the greatest bullshit artists I've

529
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 4: ever met.

530
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a high compliment from Wow.

531
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: I did not know that.

532
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: Yeah wow.

533
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 4: So David Wolper, like his father, was interested in sales

534
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 4: of all kinds and the entertainment industry. He'd started a

535
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 4: TV distribution company called Flamingo Films. So after he started

536
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: Flamingo Films, Wolper shut it down, ended up working at

537
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 4: a bank, and when he was there he started working

538
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 4: on divorce hearing, which was kind of a predecessor or,

539
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 4: as he described it, a predecessor to Jerry Springer and

540
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: like not great reality TV. And then he ran into

541
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 4: somebody on the street that he bought Russian cartoons from.

542
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 4: So this is the wild West right of distribution. Yeah,

543
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 4: anybody can start up their own little distribution outfit. And

544
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 4: this guy says, look, you like those Russian cartoons. I

545
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 4: got some Russian space footage. You want some of that,

546
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 4: And so he makes a movie called Race for Space.

547
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 4: Stewart had worked on it, but he didn't like it,

548
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 4: and he told Wolpert, you know, he didn't like it,

549
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 4: and Rolper thought, well, this guy's smart, so we hired

550
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 4: him and they started working together. A decade later, mel

551
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 4: Stewart tells Madeline, Okay, I'm going to read Charlie in

552
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: the Chocolate Factory.

553
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: He does.

554
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 4: It's not quite his style, but he likes it, and

555
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 4: he decides I want to make it, but I want

556
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 4: to make it in a more realistic fashion than the book. So, Aaron,

557
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: you talk about this on your show in like the

558
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 4: last episode especially, But Willy Wonka is very much a cipher.

559
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 4: He's this enigma in the book. It's hard to parse,

560
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 4: it's hard to even figure out who he is. He

561
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 4: seems like he darts in and out of you know, view.

562
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 4: He's never really described in great detail. And I think

563
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 4: Stuart wants to ground the story much more than the

564
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 4: heightened version that will exist later in Tim Burton's world.

565
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 4: So Stuart saw a business opportunity here as well, Basically

566
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 4: outside of Disney. The market for family films was slim,

567
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 4: and this is very much true. So at the time

568
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 4: there are very few non Disney children's family films being released.

569
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 4: This is the late sixties early seventies. In fact, one

570
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 4: exception was written by Ian Fleming and Roll Dahll. Aaron,

571
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 4: which one would that be?

572
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

573
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 4: That's right, Chitty Chitty Bang. The book was written by

574
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 4: Ian Fleming and then Roll Dahl would write the screenplay.

575
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 4: So Disney was entering the dark ages. Walt passed away

576
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty six, and so Mel Stewart has this opportunity.

577
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 4: There's a bit of a vacuum. They consider making it

578
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 4: as an animated film, but Stuart doesn't want to do that.

579
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 4: He wants it to be realistic and grounded, and he

580
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 4: doesn't want it just to be for kids. He also

581
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 4: wants it to appeal to adults. So he tells Wolper

582
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 4: about the idea, and as you talk about in your show,

583
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 4: so Well, Aaron Wolper sees an opportunity for Synergy. So

584
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 4: David Wolper is working on a TV special about endangered

585
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 4: species called Say Goodbye, which would be nominated for another

586
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 4: Oscar Best documentary feature, and they had a sponsor, Quaker Oats.

587
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 4: So Ken Mason, the director of advertising at Quaker Oats,

588
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 4: was actually very against Saturday Morning cartoons and wanted to

589
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 4: sponsor more serious fare for children. Hence something like Say Goodbye.

590
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 4: And this is kind of at the height of advertising

591
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 4: targeting children through television, and all of a sudden, there's

592
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 4: a lot of pushback on these ads. There's all of

593
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 4: these conferences about food and nutrition and health, and people

594
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 4: are saying, maybe these cereals products are not actually as

595
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 4: good for children as we have been saying before. And

596
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: so there's an opportunity here for Mason and Quaker Oats

597
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 4: to attempt a different form of advertising than traditional television advertising.

598
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 4: And so Ken Mason, who once defended cap'n Crunch by

599
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 4: saying a banana has more sugar than a c of

600
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 4: my Sweet and Cereal, which I don't know if that's true.

601
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: Seems like it's not.

602
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true, syncs.

603
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: Up with David Wolper and he produces this documentary Say Goodbye,

604
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 4: and Wolper says, all right, you guys are interested in

605
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 4: making a chocolate bar. What about Charlie and the chocolate

606
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 4: factory and we do a little product tie in. We

607
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 4: don't know how the conversation went, but here's how Wolper

608
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 4: described it. While it was highly unusual for a serial

609
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 4: company to finance a feature films, yeah, Quaker Oats decided

610
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: to name their candy the Wonka Bar and bought the

611
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 4: rights to the name from the author. So there are

612
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 4: obviously a lot of product tie ins nowadays with movies,

613
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 4: and there would begin to be in the nineteen eighties.

614
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: I mean some big examples like Reese's Pieces in Et,

615
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 4: although obviously Reesus did not finance that film BMW and GoldenEye,

616
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 4: which we covered. GoldenEye has an incredible amount of sponsorship

617
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 4: in it. Or AOL I did not know this, Lizzie.

618
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: They paid to have the title of You've Got Mail

619
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: b You've Got Mail Wow. Now we should be clear

620
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 4: we don't actually know the detail of the deal between

621
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 4: AOL and the studio. It's entirely possible that no money

622
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 4: exchanged hands and that an exchange for the product placement,

623
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: AOL provided promotion through its online properties. But we do

624
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: know that You've Got Mail was originally called you Have Mail,

625
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 4: and AOL was involved in shaping that film. The point

626
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 4: is that all of these deals pale in comparison to

627
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 4: the Quaker Oats Charlie and the Chocolate Factory deal, in

628
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 4: which Quaker Oats is the sole financier responsible for providing

629
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 4: the entire budget for the movie. And Aaron, as you mentioned,

630
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 4: this is so unusual because the book is a critique

631
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 4: of to a certain extent, American capitalism and also advertising

632
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: to children in a lot of.

633
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: Ways, and Quakers is like, what better way than to

634
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: advertise our chocolate bar too, children.

635
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should stop and just really sort of dive

636
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: into how insane this is that a serial company funded

637
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: a studio movie. Yeah, you're right. Everything you said is right.

638
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: That makes no sense. That did not happen before. And

639
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier that Doll hated this movie. I mean,

640
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: Dahl hated this movie. Let's just say it flat out.

641
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: He wrote the screenplay, but he was incredibly unhappy with it.

642
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: And like I said, I love this movie, and so

643
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: I disagree with Doll about it. But I am very

644
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: much on Doll's side here because Dahl wrote Charlie the

645
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: Chocolate Factory, because Quaker Oats came on to fund the

646
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: movie and they wanted to make a Wonka bar. As

647
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: you said, they completely shifted the focus and they called

648
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: it Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. So that's not

649
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: just a title change. That really is a gigantic change.

650
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I can talk a little bit

651
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: about what I noticed the other day about the structure

652
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: of the movie, which is so incredibly weird, but I

653
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: think it really does shift focus to Willy Wonka starting

654
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: at the end of act one, and that is not

655
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: what Dall wanted. That is not the story he wrote.

656
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: That is not the message he was trying to get across.

657
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: It undermined his themes. So I'm on his side here

658
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: that they sort of screwed up his version of the story.

659
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: Well, let's talk a little bit about how he got

660
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 4: involved and then maybe how he got edged out. So

661
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 4: I think one of the reasons this thing actually happened,

662
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: Wolper definitely had not read the entire book and maybe

663
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 4: had not read any of it when he pitched the

664
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: idea to Quaker. So Stewart had read the book. He

665
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 4: told Wolper about it, and it seems like Wolper just

666
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 4: thought chocolate factory, Quaker, great, Let's stick it together. It

667
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 4: doesn't matter.

668
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: By the way, it may be worth mentioning because I

669
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: didn't realize this some of the brands that Quaker was

670
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: behind in the sixties and the seventies in terms of

671
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: the types of cereals because they did life, right, they

672
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: did life, and they have cap'n Crunch and crunch Yeah,

673
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: something called quisp yep. But yeah, like some of the

674
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: biggest sugariest like character driven cereals, right.

675
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 4: Mm hmm yep. Very mascot driven, yes, brand driven, very

676
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 4: much aimed at children. Again, as we'll discuss later, Ken

677
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 4: Mason of Quaker actually seems to have had decently mixed

678
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 4: feelings about this and was hoping to do something a

679
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 4: little bit more substantive for children in terms of the

680
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 4: entertainment that was being provided, which is actually kind of

681
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 4: like Doll. He did not like television. Doll does not

682
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 4: like television. If you reach Charlie a Chocolate Factory, which

683
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: I did, and you get to the Mike TV section,

684
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 4: you can see when the Ooperloupas do their poem about

685
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: Mike TV, you can see Doll's thoughts on television very clearly.

686
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: So it seems like though Aaron at First, this is

687
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 4: actually going to be a great situation for Doll because

688
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 4: unlike a traditional studio setup, it's being financed by a

689
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: private corporation, and so therefore it seems unlikely that they're

690
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 4: going to get the level of notes that you'll get

691
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 4: through like a studio executive for example. Right in theory,

692
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 4: Doll should have more control in this situation, and you

693
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 4: could surmise or imagine a version of it like that.

694
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 4: So Wolper calls Doll's agent and he negotiates a deal

695
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 4: to buy the rights to the book for two hundred

696
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 4: thousand dollars, and the agent has one condition, Doll has

697
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 4: to write the screenplay. At this point, that actually seems

698
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: like not a big deal because, as you discussed on

699
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: your show, Aaron Dahl had written not only A Chitty

700
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 4: Chitty Bang Bang, but You Only Live Twice, the James

701
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 4: Bond film. He'd also written for Alfred Hitchcock on his

702
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 4: anthology series and where years removed from his failed attempt

703
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 4: to adapt his story about Gremlins with Walt Disney, which

704
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 4: had been his kind of rude introduction to Hollywood.

705
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: So it's a deal.

706
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 4: Ken Mason calls Wolper back Quaker Oats is interested, and

707
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 4: Wolper proposes the plan that would go into action. Quaker

708
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 4: Oats is going to put up the money. They're going

709
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 4: to make it for two to three million dollars, and

710
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 4: then afterwards we'll shop it around for distribution. And Wolper's like,

711
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 4: this is going to give us the best financial results,

712
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 4: which really just means Wolper the best financial results. He

713
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 4: will be paid no matter what. There is no risk

714
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 4: involved in this. Now, as you mentioned, Aaron, the title

715
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 4: change seems to have come from Quaker. That's the general consensus.

716
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 4: We will get to Mel Stewart actually offers a different

717
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 4: reason later on. But I think it makes perfect sense

718
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: that they're going to be promoting the Wonka Bar. It

719
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 4: needs to be called Willie Wonka. We need Wonka in

720
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 4: the title, and it can't be called Charlie Wonka and

721
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: the chocolate factory. That doesn't make any sense. So by

722
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 4: August of nineteen sixty nine, the New York Times had

723
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 4: reported that Wolpur and Quaker Oats are going to produce

724
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 4: this children's story. They also note that Wolper also took

725
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 4: out an option on James and the Giant Peach that

726
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 4: would not obviously come to pass. Now, the movie was

727
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 4: already being described as a musical, which mel Stewart wasn't

728
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 4: really nuts about. So he actually wanted to have the

729
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 4: character's chanting poems and basically rapping instead of singing songs,

730
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 4: which would have been really interestingly.

731
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 3: What some of the children in this movie do anyway,

732
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: because they did not cast the greatest singers.

733
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 4: They didn't cast singers. No is that Sabrina Carpenter in

734
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 4: here though. But Wolper seems to be the driving force

735
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 4: behind wanting this to be a musical, because he's using

736
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 4: musicals to sell Quaker Oats on the idea He's sang

737
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 4: The Wizard of Oz the Sound of Music Oliver just

738
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 4: a few years before in nineteen sixty eight. Oliver, He's

739
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 4: had made a ton of money, and so Stuart gives in,

740
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 4: but he's like, it's not a musical, it's a movie

741
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 4: with music, Anddavid Wolper had a really good idea of

742
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 4: who he wanted to come in to write the music.

743
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: Lizzie Aaron Any guesses. He features prominently in twenty twenty

744
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 4: five's Blue Moon. Richard Rogers Richard Rogers of Rogers and

745
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 4: Hammerstein Oklahoma, The King and I Sound of Music. He

746
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 4: says no. Then Henry Mancini Breakfast of Tiffany's Pink Panther,

747
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: he also said no. He said he was busy. And

748
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: finally Wolper calls his friends Anthony Newley and Leslie Brickis,

749
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 4: who are not also rams in this conversation. These are

750
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 4: two of the biggest composer lyricists of the era, and

751
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 4: Newly was very much a performer as well. So Newly's

752
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 4: an actor, comedian, singer, composer. He'd had a string of

753
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 4: hits in the UK in the late fifties and early sixties. Lizzy,

754
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 4: we talked about Anthony Newey briefly in our episode on

755
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 4: Doctor Doolittle, which he acted in and was abused by

756
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 4: Rex Harrison in that.

757
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: Movie, as was everyone on that side.

758
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 4: Yet Goodbye mister Chips Scrooge, and again they had some

759
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 4: doll overlaps. So Newly and Brickis had done the Bond

760
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 4: song for Goldfinger and You Only Live Twice.

761
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 3: Oh, Goldfinger is my favorite Bond song of all time,

762
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: Shirley Bassie.

763
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's nearly about. So they'd won a Grammy in

764
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three and the point is they're not some

765
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 4: sort of Constellation prize. These are two of the greatest

766
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 4: living musical men you know in the world right now.

767
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 4: And so Wolfers says, write a few songs for the movie,

768
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: and they say sure, and they sent them Rolldall's first

769
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 4: draft as a guide. And let's talk about this first draft.

770
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 4: So Aaron Rolldall tried to make it as a screenwriter

771
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:27,959
Speaker 4: for a long time. Can you tell us a little

772
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 4: bit about the high that he started on entering Hollywood

773
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 4: and how quickly he fell off?

774
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, and I think that those two things

775
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: are very much tied together. It's not a coincidence. When

776
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: Doll was just twenty six, he wrote a story called

777
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: The Gremlins, which you referenced, which was kind of a

778
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: propaganda piece about American and British cooperation. And it got

779
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: passed around DC and it got into the hands of

780
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: Eleanor Roosevelt and she flipped for it. She absolutely loved it.

781
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: It was basically a children's story, and she gave it

782
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: to her grandkids. She would read it to her grandkids,

783
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: and she wanted to meet the author, so she invited

784
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: twenty six year old Rolldahal, who by the way, was

785
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 1: a British spy at this point to the White House

786
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: to hang out with him, and it went well, just

787
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: like you know you mentioned dollas like Zelig or you

788
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: know for Scump, I mean Doll just like Charmed everyone

789
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: everywhere he went. Eleanor and Franklin invited him up to

790
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 1: Hyde Park to spend weekends, which is just like huge

791
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: for a twenty six year old spy, like making friends

792
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: with a White House intern would have been giant, but

793
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: rolled and this is just the way his life went,

794
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: was becoming friends with the First Family. And so it

795
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: was such an exciting book that Eleanor fell in love

796
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: with that either she or someone in her circle got

797
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: it to Walt Disney, and Walt Disney fell in love

798
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: with it. And Walt Disney was absolutely at peak of

799
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: his powers. I mean, all the big movies we can name,

800
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: Dumbo and Pinocchio and Bambi, they had all been made

801
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: in just like the handful of years before this. He

802
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: loves the book as much as Eleanor does, and he

803
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 1: flies twenty six year old Roll Doll to Los Angeles,

804
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: puts him up at the Beverly Hills Hotel, hires a

805
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: driver for him, throws a giant party for him that

806
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: Charlie chi Applin attends and everyone attends.

807
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 4: Where he's like welcomed by Charlie Chaplin. Yeah, is Charlie

808
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 4: dressed as a gremlin? I can't remember.

809
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: I know a lot of Yeah, Charlie and the other

810
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: guests are dressed like gremlins. Yeah, I mean, can you

811
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: imagine for Dahl to just like walk into that.

812
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: He just met the president, who then set him up

813
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 4: with Walt Disney Like, yeah, it doesn't make any.

814
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: Said, it's insane, And they start a writer's room and

815
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Disney sort of shows Doll the ropes, this is how

816
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: Hollywood works, This is how we are going to adapt

817
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: your story. And he hires a director, and he hires

818
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: you know, animators and kind of a whole crew, and

819
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: they get going, and Disney even puts out ads for

820
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: the Gremlins the movie before they finish the screenplay. But

821
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: Dall is just not at a point yet where he

822
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: can compromise. He has a very strong vision for what

823
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 1: his story is and he doesn't want it corrupted. He

824
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: doesn't want it changed at all. But of course, movie making,

825
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: screenplay writing is all about collaboration. That's what Hollywood is.

826
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: So for that reason and for other reasons, the film

827
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: falls apart. And what I talk about a little bit

828
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: on the podcast is Dall could have We might not

829
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: have ever heard of Dol because so many writers like him, novelists,

830
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: prose writers, went to Hollywood and just just failed, right

831
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: like people like Fitzgerald and Faulkner and Aldos Huxley and

832
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 1: so many others. Fitzgerald drank himself to death in Hollywood,

833
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: and that absolutely could have been Dall because he just

834
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: had one disappointment after the next. His next movie he

835
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: wrote it ended up actually going into production with Gregory peckstarring,

836
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: but it was called Oh Death, Where is Thy sting

837
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: ling Ling? And the reason you've never heard of it

838
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: is because after a few days of filming, the head

839
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: of the studio canceled the whole production, didn't like what

840
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: he saw and canceled it. So it's like Dall was

841
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: just just having so many disappointments in Hollywood. But then

842
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: he hooked up with Albert Broccoli, the producers of James Bond,

843
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: and he was given the opportunity to write the fifth

844
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: installment of the James Bond series, which was as much

845
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: to a guarantee as exists in Hollywood. You know, the

846
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: first four were giant, giant hits. Doll was also a

847
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: spy for six, so he was able to bring his

848
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: own experiences to the project. He was actually friends with

849
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: Ian Fleming, who created James Bond, so was like the

850
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: perfect situation for him, and it became a giant, giant hit.

851
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 3: Was it like public knowledge that he had been part

852
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: of six at this point or is that something that

853
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 3: came out later.

854
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 1: He definitely did not talk about it much. He didn't

855
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: boast about it, so I think most people probably thought

856
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: that he was just part of the British embassy working

857
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: in New York and DC. He didn't go around advertising

858
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: it got it, But certainly the producers of James bondnew

859
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: and we're very happy for him to bring his own

860
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: experiences to the project.

861
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 4: And then, of course Doll cannot help himself but put

862
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 4: down the project or put down James Bond. Right throughout

863
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 4: this process as well. He needs everybody to understand that

864
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 4: this is beneath him, even as it is his first

865
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 4: success within Hollywood and within screenwriting, and eventually when he

866
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 4: gets into children's books, feels the need to assert that

867
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 4: actually writing children's books is the most difficult thing any

868
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 4: writer can do. And look at all the great authors

869
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 4: who have completely failed at this endeavor. And what I

870
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 4: am doing is threading the needle in the way that

871
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 4: you know, almost no one else can do. There's a

872
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 4: really interesting delicate ego to Dol And it's also interesting

873
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 4: to imagine he's failing at screenwriting. He's struggling at writing

874
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 4: these short stories. He writes a play that doesn't land

875
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 4: at all. And at the same time, his wife, Patricia

876
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 4: Neil is you know, nominated for an Oscar and she

877
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 4: wins for her to opposite Paul Newman, and is just

878
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 4: she's the breadwinner and she's having multiple children. And there

879
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 4: are some really interesting elements to this marriage. Again, we

880
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 4: don't have time to get into here. Listen to the

881
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 4: secret world of World Doll. But at this point, I

882
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 4: think what we can say about Doll as a screenwriter

883
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 4: is he does not take.

884
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: Notes very well.

885
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 4: Like he very much likes to work by himself. He

886
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 4: doesn't like to work in a writer's room necessarily. And

887
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 4: I think what happens with Charlie and the chocolate factory,

888
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 4: and we don't need to dive into this too deeply.

889
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 4: Is this is a book that he had been writing

890
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 4: for quite some time. There's like an unnamed first draft

891
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 4: from as early as nineteen sixty one, basically, and the

892
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: story went through a lot of different variations. And in fact,

893
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 4: as you mentioned on your show erin in the earliest versions,

894
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 4: Charlie's black actually, and the story would have had a

895
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 4: very different tenor would have been something completely different. And

896
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 4: then obviously he's at the behest of his agent and others,

897
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 4: you know, he changes Charlie to white. You know, at

898
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 4: first there are ten children and ten golden tickets, and

899
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 4: the oup lumpas change in various ways, and he revises

900
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 4: and revises, and we eventually get to the version that

901
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: we more or less recognize now with five golden tickets

902
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 4: and Charlie Buckett and Willy Wonka and whatnot. So the

903
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 4: point is, when he writes this script, he sends it

904
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 4: in to Wolper and Stewart and they basically say, look,

905
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 4: this is just a transcription of the book. And I

906
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 4: think the problem is that Dahl had been staring at

907
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 4: this book for so long, and he'd already figured everything

908
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 4: out in the novel form. That he's not going to

909
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 4: bring something new at this point. There's very little showing.

910
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 4: There's a lot of telling. There's a lot of time

911
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 4: in Charlie's home. Aaron, you mentioned how how we pivot

912
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 4: to Wonka very quickly in the movie, you know, once

913
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 4: we get to the factory, and that's I think very

914
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 4: much intentionally.

915
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 3: Not fast enough somewhat are.

916
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 4: But the other thing is, like with this book, there

917
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 4: is no main conflict, right, the book does not actually

918
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 4: have a main conflict. It is effectively it is a tour.

919
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 4: Children are picked off one by one and then in

920
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 4: kind of just a weird happenstance turn, Charlie is announced

921
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 4: as the quote winner. At the very end. You know,

922
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 4: it just kind of plods along, and that's what happens,

923
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 4: and it's very fun as a child, but it's not

924
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 4: a movie. And it was also very expensive. He'd written

925
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 4: these extremely elaborate chocolate factory scenes, and they have two

926
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 4: to three million dollars of Quaker outs money. So they

927
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 4: fly Doll to Los Angeles and they do a bunch

928
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 4: of script meetings, and recaps of these meetings are mixed,

929
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 4: you know. Stewart says Doll was very professional, Wolper says

930
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 4: he won't change anything. I'm inclined to believe Wolper. Yeah,

931
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 4: they send Doll back to England. He starts working on

932
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 4: the second draft and they just start casting. They do

933
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 4: not have a shootable script, but they start casting. So

934
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 4: they start as early as January of nineteen seven, and

935
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 4: they were considering a very different Willy Wonka. So they

936
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 4: gathered in the Plaza Hotel in New York with a

937
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 4: list of potential names, and one of those names was

938
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 4: American actor Joel Gray.

939
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 3: Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

940
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 4: So do you guys remember Joel Gray had won Best

941
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 4: Supporting Actor for Cabaret Yeah, nineteen seventy three, and so

942
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 4: he was already known for this role from nineteen sixty

943
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 4: seven from the Broadway production.

944
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: Right.

945
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 4: In a lot of ways, he actually really fits the

946
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: Doll version of Wonka. He's five foot five. He is small,

947
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 4: like Wonka is very short. In the book, it may

948
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 4: have been very faithful, but as Stuart put it, you

949
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 4: don't want a short, pointy bearded guy as a cinematic

950
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 4: leading man. And this I think speaks to mel Stewart

951
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 4: and his collaborators seeing Wonka as the lead of the movie,

952
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 4: not Charlie as the lead of the movie, and Stuart

953
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 4: did have a practical concern. He was worried that with

954
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,479
Speaker 4: Joel Gray, one of the kids might have a growth

955
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 4: spurt and end up taller than Gray while shooting which Lizzy.

956
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 4: That happened on the Sound of Music if you.

957
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 3: Remember, yeah, I did.

958
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 4: The children started to grow at different rates, and all

959
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 4: of a sudden, the heights started getting a lily wonky

960
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 4: between all of them.

961
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 3: I mean, I understand what they're trying to do here,

962
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: and it feels like it's kind of all coming from

963
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 3: a marketing place of they're trying to push Wonka with this.

964
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 3: I will say I don't think Joel Gray is a

965
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 3: bad choice for Willy Wonka at all. Obviously, I love

966
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 3: Gene Wilder. I think he is Willy Wonka. But Joel

967
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: Gray is wonderful and has a very sinister quality to

968
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: him or can so. I think he would work pretty

969
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 3: well too.

970
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 4: That's true. Well, it sounds like a lot of people

971
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 4: wanted the part. Anthony Newley, who was working on the music,

972
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 4: pushed for it hard. His agent Sue Mengers, who also

973
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 4: represented Barbara streisand calls Wolper up and she goes, I

974
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 4: want Newly as Wonka. I want him to sing two songs.

975
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 4: And here's the quote from Wholper. If I gave the

976
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 4: role to Newlee, she carefully suggested, or maybe I interpreted,

977
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 4: that she would get me a date with Barbara Streisand

978
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 4: so I hung up the phone and never thought about

979
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 4: it again. End quote.

980
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if you want that day.

981
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: Well.

982
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: Anthony Newley also rallied hard for the candy Man role,

983
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 4: and also Sammy Davis Junior apparently rallied for that role

984
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: really hard. Both were turned down.

985
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: Doesn't he go on to record Candy Man?

986
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: He does?

987
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 4: He records it later it becomes a hit for Sammy

988
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 4: Davis Junior.

989
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 6: Later.

990
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 3: Yes, because I was going to say I know the song.

991
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 3: I didn't. That was one of the moments in this

992
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 3: movie where I was like, I did this is from

993
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 3: this movie. I did not put those two together because

994
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 3: I remember Sammy Davis Junior's version of it so well.

995
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 4: Fred Astaire is often mentioned to someone who was being

996
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 4: considered for Wonka. I. Basically, Wolper and Stewart said they

997
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 4: did not know about his interest until afterward. He would

998
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 4: have been too old. He was in his seventies and

999
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 4: probably too expensive. And a couple of other names that

1000
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 4: are interesting include Peter Sellers, who would end up having

1001
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 4: a brief or at least romantic relationship with Rolldal's daughter Tessa

1002
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 4: Adall in the nineteen seventies.

1003
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: So that's unusual when she's eighteen and he's fifty.

1004
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

1005
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 3: Ah, why did they have to do this? I love

1006
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 3: Peter Seller's god.

1007
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 4: Spike Milligan and all six members of Monty Python and

1008
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 4: a reportedly Spike Milligan is who Doll wanted for the part.

1009
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 4: So they're weekended into auditions. As the story goes, Gene

1010
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 4: Wilder walks in.

1011
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: Now.

1012
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 4: I assumed growing up that Wilder was already a huge

1013
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 4: because I also grew up with young Frankenstein Blazing Saddles,

1014
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 4: Silver Streak, you know, stir crazy with the Richard Pryor stuff.

1015
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 3: No, he's all the seventies exactly.

1016
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 4: I did not realize this. This is after Willy Wonka.

1017
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 4: Those were all after Willy Wonka, so this is technically

1018
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 4: after The Producers, which came out in sixty seven.

1019
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: I think the Producers did something for him.

1020
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 4: Yeah that had flopped.

1021
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 3: Oh really, they was kind of buried it's not a

1022
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: big hit.

1023
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 4: It was not a big hit. And so let's talk

1024
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 4: briefly about Wilder. So he was born jer Own, Silverman

1025
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 4: in June of nineteen thirty three, and he was a

1026
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 4: very accomplished theater actor before he transitioned into a film

1027
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 4: and TV. So his first big role was if you

1028
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 4: guys remember, he plays one of the hostages in Bonnie

1029
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 4: and Clyde and Arthur Penn's Bonnie and Clyde. He's in

1030
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 4: the back seat. He was Actually he's thirty four. He's

1031
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 4: four and seven years older than Warren Batty and Faye

1032
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 4: Donaway in that movie, which is crazy because he's got

1033
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 4: such a babyface.

1034
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:48,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1035
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 4: So he's nominated for Best Supporting Actor in nineteen sixty

1036
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 4: nine for the Producers, even though that movie did not

1037
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 4: It wasn't like a huge breakout hit, which obviously was

1038
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 4: one of his many collaborations with mel Brooks and mentioned

1039
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 4: this on Your Share and What Fun fact. Brooks's wife,

1040
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 4: Anne Bancroft, was very good friends with Roll Dahl's wife

1041
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 4: patriciaan Neil and Aaron Which movie did Patrician Neil turn

1042
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 4: down after suffering a stroke That went to Anne Bancroft

1043
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 4: right around this time the graduate.

1044
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, missus Robinson.

1045
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 4: That's right. So the point is when Wilder auditioned, he

1046
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 4: was known, but he wasn't a household name, and it

1047
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 4: didn't matter. Stuart thought he was perfect. He read from

1048
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 4: the book with just the right inflection. He had quote

1049
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 4: a sardonic, demonic edge that Stuart was looking for. And

1050
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 4: according to Stewart, the minute Wilder walks into the room,

1051
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 4: he turns to Wolprint says that's Willy Wonka and David Walper, ever,

1052
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 4: the deal maker says, shut up. We can't let him

1053
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 4: know how much we want him. We got to get

1054
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 4: him for cheap, and Stuart says totally. And then when

1055
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 4: the audition's done, he chases Wilder down the hallway, cuts

1056
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 4: him off at the elevator and says, you're going to

1057
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 4: do this picture, no two ways about it. You are

1058
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 4: Willy Wonka. But the only problem is Wilder isn't sure

1059
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 4: he wants to. And this is a story that I

1060
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 4: had heard before, and I'm sure you guys have heard before. Lizzie,

1061
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 4: you heard this story before about what Gene Wilder's one

1062
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 4: condition was for taking.

1063
00:49:59,000 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: On this role.

1064
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 4: Are you familiar?

1065
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 3: No, I don't know. I don't know.

1066
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 4: Aaron, would you like to share? I'm sure you heard

1067
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 4: this one, yeah, through your research.

1068
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I even I put the clip

1069
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: in my podcast. Actually, he said that he would only

1070
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: do the role if he could have that amazing entrance

1071
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: where he wants out of his chocolate factory with a

1072
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: cane and you don't quite know if he's very feeble,

1073
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: if he's got an injury, or what's going on with him,

1074
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 1: And then the cane gets stuck in a crack and

1075
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 1: he somersaults and jumps up and shows that he's actually

1076
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: kind of a trickster, and from then on you have

1077
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: no idea what to make of him. It is a

1078
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: completely brilliant entrance.

1079
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 4: So he says, this is my stipulation and melt. Stewart says,

1080
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 4: you're not going to do the movie if you can't

1081
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 4: do that, and he says no, and he says, okay, well,

1082
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 4: fine deal. So they get Wilder. He's paid one hundred

1083
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,959
Speaker 4: and fifty thousand dollars, according to Stewart, to play the part,

1084
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 4: and then to cast the kids. Stewart apparently turned to

1085
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 4: the illustrations and descriptions from the book. And it's what's

1086
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 4: interesting is Charlie's hat, for example, is not in the

1087
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 4: later publication that I read as a kid, the later illustrations,

1088
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 4: but if you go back to the Shindleman illustrations, it

1089
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 4: is a part of the costume you know that Shindelman

1090
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 4: had done originally. So they hire multiple casting directors to

1091
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 4: read kids across the world. You've got Mary and Doherty

1092
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 4: in New York, You've got body Baker in London, and

1093
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 4: Ronata Nukel in Munich, and given Quaker Oats roots in Ravena, Ohio,

1094
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 4: it's perhaps fitting that they'd find Charlie Bucket in Cleveland.

1095
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 4: So they considered hundreds of actors from children's theaters across

1096
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 4: the country, including the children's theater at the Cleveland Playhouse

1097
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 4: where Joel Gray and Margaret Hamilton The Wicked Witch of

1098
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 4: the West got their starts.

1099
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

1100
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 4: So she asked the playhouse to suggest actors who would

1101
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 4: be a good fit for Charlie, and they suggested Peter Ostrom.

1102
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 4: His dad was the General counsel of Ohio Bell Telephone.

1103
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 4: Shout out to kids with dads who are lawyers.

1104
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: That's me and David.

1105
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and David. According to Stuart, Peter was the pride

1106
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 4: of the children's brands of the Cleveland Playhouse. He'd been

1107
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 4: acting for three years and he auditions in early summer

1108
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 4: of nineteen seventy. He's twelve years old. They fly him

1109
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 4: to New York for a screen test. He reads from

1110
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 4: the book and they don't have any of the songs

1111
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 4: written yet, so he sings my Country tis of Thee

1112
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 4: and they say, Peter, your acting is great, You're singing

1113
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 4: is terrible.

1114
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 3: And is one hundred percent tone deaf, which, like, I

1115
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: don't care because he's very cute, he's very charming, but

1116
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 3: my god, when he started singing.

1117
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has a.

1118
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: Quote here where he basically says, don't worry, We're not

1119
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 4: going to use your singing voice anyway. And they just

1120
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 4: reduced his singing part across the production, like every time

1121
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 4: you open his mouth. They're like, well, no, we can

1122
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 4: lose that song. Let's just move on, and they just

1123
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 4: kept what they needed him. Here's where it gets a

1124
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 4: little dark. So just before he goes off to summer camp,

1125
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 4: they say, look, Peter, we like you for Charlie. There's

1126
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 4: one problem. Charlie's really skinny, We're gonna need you to

1127
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 4: lose some weight. So he went to summer camp quote

1128
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 4: riding horses and hiking and climbing and doing all the

1129
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 4: things you do at summer camp, trying not to eat

1130
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 4: because I wanted to lose more weight. And this pies

1131
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 4: in to a really gnarly thread in all of dolls

1132
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 4: writing that I'm sure we're all aware of, which is

1133
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 4: there is very much a fat phobia through all of

1134
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 4: Doll's work, and I think at the end we'll get

1135
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 4: to some of the ways in which his work has

1136
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 4: been revised, and you could argue censored in specifically that way. Yeah,

1137
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 4: you should never ask a twelve year old to lose

1138
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 4: weight for a movie, obviously.

1139
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's awful.

1140
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 4: Peter Ostrom was officially cast in mid August of nineteen seventy.

1141
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 4: He had ten days notice to move to Munich for

1142
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 4: five months of shooting for rook Assault. Mel Stewart wanted

1143
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,720
Speaker 4: to cast someone that was like the quote spoiled children

1144
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 4: of Beverly Hills, but they wanted her to be English

1145
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 4: and to Julie don Cole, she's twelve years old like Peter.

1146
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 3: She's great.

1147
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 4: She's so good she's attending was performing art school in London.

1148
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 4: Casting agents come to her school. They line all the

1149
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 4: girls up. No no you, no, no you. She comes in,

1150
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 4: she meets Stuart and Marglie. She hasn't read any of

1151
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,919
Speaker 4: the doll books, so she has a school bus driver

1152
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 4: driver her around town from bookstore to bookstore, and so

1153
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 4: they can find a copy of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

1154
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 4: And during the audition, Stewart just kept saying be nastier,

1155
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,760
Speaker 4: be brattier, and she nailed it. And in later interviews,

1156
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 4: cast members would say that of all the actors, she

1157
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 4: was the least like her character. In real life, she

1158
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 4: was extremely sweet, and she did not have a doting father.

1159
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 4: Her dad had actually left when she was six years

1160
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 4: old and she never saw him again. They spoke on

1161
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 4: the phone one time before he died. Some tragic stories

1162
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 4: around these kids. A couple more notes on casting. Denise

1163
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 4: Nickerson thrilled to get the part of Violet Beauregard because

1164
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 4: she get to work with other kids. She'd been acting

1165
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 4: since she was two in a commercial in Florida, but

1166
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 4: she'd only done at this point like Broadway and TV,

1167
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 4: and she was only acting across adults, and she just

1168
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 4: thought this is going to be great until they shoved

1169
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 4: her into a giant blueberry styrofoam costume.

1170
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,240
Speaker 3: She's also great.

1171
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 4: She's great. Paris, who plays Mike TV, was eleven years

1172
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 4: old and he was apparently the most difficult child on set.

1173
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 3: That tracks.

1174
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 4: So let's play this video clip of Gene Wilder talking

1175
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 4: about working with the children on set, and let's see

1176
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 4: if we can guess who he's talking about here.

1177
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 6: How do you like working with the younger generation?

1178
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: Who do you mean by the younger generation?

1179
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 2: You mean the kids?

1180
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: The ones, yes, ah for them are fantastic.

1181
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 3: The other one I'm going to shoot in the head

1182
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 3: tomorrow would know.

1183
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 4: I think based on our research, we can assume that

1184
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 4: that was Paris. Julie duncle later said many years later,

1185
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 4: he admitted he was a bit of a troublemaker during

1186
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 4: the production. Again he was very young. Michael Bolner played

1187
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 4: a Gusta Scloop. He lived in Munich, not far from

1188
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 4: the studio, and his mother just saw an ad in

1189
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 4: the paper and brought him into audition. And he didn't

1190
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 4: really speak a lot of English, which Stewart did not

1191
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 4: care about. The kids are all fantastic. There's one actress

1192
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 4: they really wanted for one of the parent roles that

1193
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 4: they didn't get that isn't interesting, what if? Which is

1194
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 4: Mike TV's mother. And that actress was Jeane Stapleton and

1195
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 4: she had an offer for a TV series at the

1196
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 4: same time, and Mel Stewart was saying, don't do TV.

1197
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 4: TV always falls apart. Do a movie. It's a sure thing.

1198
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 4: Lizzy Aaron Any guesses as to what TV show that

1199
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 4: was that she decided to go with.

1200
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 1: All in the Family.

1201
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 4: That's right, Edith Funker, All in the Family, Jack Albertson

1202
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 4: they snagged for Grandpa Joe. He'd actually just won an Oscar.

1203
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 4: Best Actor in a Supporting Role for the subject was

1204
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 4: Ros's in nineteen sixty.

1205
00:55:58,600 --> 00:55:59,919
Speaker 1: Eight, starring Patricia Neil.

1206
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 5: Oh.

1207
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 4: Wow, yeah, I've not seen it. He's really good in

1208
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 4: this movie. I think he's very well cast. So Stewart

1209
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 4: and Margle's cast the movie and Wolper is scouting. He

1210
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 4: needs a location that's big enough for the factory in

1211
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 4: the Chocolate River, but it needs to be way cheap

1212
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 4: compared to Hollywood, so they can't use Hollywood. So in

1213
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 4: April of nineteen seventy. He goes to Europe. He goes

1214
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 4: to Ireland. He checks out the Gunnis brewery, looks the

1215
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 4: part lots of tubes doesn't work for technical reasons. He

1216
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 4: checks out Spain. They had a bankrupt chocolate factory that

1217
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 4: looked perfect, but the ownership was under legal dispute, so

1218
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 4: he skips that. He hits up breweries in Germany. None

1219
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 4: of them are quite right. And then he goes to

1220
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 4: Italy and he meets with one of my favorites on

1221
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 4: the show, Dino Delaurentes, who is saying you have to

1222
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 4: come to Italy. Everybody does the defensive Italian accent when

1223
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 4: they talk about Tino Delarentius, all refrain, and he's pushing

1224
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 4: him come shoot at Chinnichita Studios.

1225
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 6: You know it's.

1226
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 4: Hollywood on the Tibe or Ben Hur Cleopatra. They all

1227
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 4: shot here, and Wolper believes that Lorentis has a financial

1228
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 4: incentive to try to bring him over here. It's also

1229
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 4: possible that Laurentis was trying to get him to shoot

1230
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 4: at Dino Cheta Studio, which was Dino Delorentze's like knock

1231
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 4: off Chinnichita twenty five kilometers down the road. From Chinnichita.

1232
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 4: We can't be sure, but regardless, we got to show

1233
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 4: this story. They go to dinner and Lorenz shows up

1234
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 4: with three or four beautiful Italian starlets. He's really whining

1235
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 4: and dining Wolper and they're eating at a restaurant that

1236
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 4: Delorentes insists has the best steak in the world, and

1237
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 4: Wolper orders a steak medium rare. They bring it out

1238
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 4: and it's well done, and Lorentz says, how is it?

1239
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 4: And Wolper says, you know, it's a little too well done,

1240
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 4: and Delorentis picks up the steak, throws it into the street,

1241
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 4: screams at the waiter and tells them to bring him

1242
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 4: another one. They bring out the next one, and Wolper

1243
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 4: is so scared that when Delarentze says how is it,

1244
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 4: he just says, it's the greatest steak I've ever had,

1245
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 4: And then he says Italy is a no. So they

1246
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 4: choose the Bavaria Film Studios in Munich, and they're using

1247
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 4: the Munich Gas Works as an exterior. Actually, Alfred Hickhok

1248
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 4: his first film, The Pleasure Garden, was shot at Bavaria

1249
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 4: Film Studios in Munich and along with scenes from the

1250
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 4: Sound of Music, Paths of Glory, The Great Escape. So

1251
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 4: construction begins in mid June, shooting schedule to begin at

1252
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 4: the end of August. Art director Harper Goff comes in.

1253
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 4: He is basically drawing from Doll's original words and the

1254
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 4: illustrations by illustrator Joseph Schindelman, which you can post on

1255
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 4: our Patreon. And he's very experienced and he knows how

1256
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 4: to stretch a dollar. I mean. He had worked on

1257
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 4: Eryl Flynn's Captain Blood at Warner Brothers Casa Blanca, but

1258
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 4: his best work was known at Disney. Some Disney historians

1259
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 4: described him as the second imagineer, Walt Disney being the first.

1260
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 4: He did a lot of the early concept work for

1261
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 4: Disney's Mickey Mouse Park aka Disneyland, specifically Main Street USA

1262
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 4: and the Jungle Cruise, and he's actually credited with convincing

1263
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 4: Walt Disney to make twenty thousand Leagues Under the Sea

1264
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 4: is a live action film. He designed the Nautilus for

1265
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 4: that movie. He did another submarine, the Proteus, in the

1266
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty six film Fantastic Voyage, and both of those

1267
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 4: movies won Oscars for Art Direction and Special effects. Now,

1268
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 4: another key crew member was construction manager Hendrik Winans, And

1269
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 4: we should talk a little bit about the candy world.

1270
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 4: A lot of people say it was not edible, including

1271
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 4: the Chocolate River, but the Chocolate River almost was edible.

1272
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 4: So the original plan was to mix one hundred and

1273
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 4: fifty thousand gallons of water with powder that's used to

1274
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 4: make chocolate ice cream. What might be the problem with

1275
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 4: that sticky stinky When you leave it out, it produces

1276
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 4: bubbles and it starts smelling like the bog of eternal

1277
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 4: stents from Labyrinth. So they added chemicals like salt conditioner

1278
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 4: and the special chemical that was used to control the

1279
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 4: foaming element in shampoos, which made it cold, dirty and

1280
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 4: not edible. Now, another rumor online they say that the

1281
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 4: flour teacup that Wonka SIPs from and bites is made

1282
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 4: from wax, not candy. That's actually not true. The original

1283
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 4: version was wax, and then when Stuart saw how Gene

1284
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 4: had to spit it out during rehearsal, they replaced it

1285
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 4: with one made from sugar. And we should also mention

1286
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 4: special effects technician Logan Phrase, who brought all of these

1287
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 4: designs to life. But let's get back to the script,

1288
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 4: because we don't have a script, and there's a new problem,

1289
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 4: which is really an old problem that anybody involved in

1290
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 4: this movie should have seen from the first time they

1291
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 4: read the book. Arin the oopel. How were they originally

1292
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 4: described in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

1293
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were African pigmies.

1294
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 4: That's right. They were described basically as very small black people.

1295
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 4: And there was a suggestion by a number of black

1296
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 4: actors that read the script made to mel Stuart that

1297
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 4: this suggested a plantation like scenario where Willy Wonka was

1298
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 4: engaged in slave labor. Definitely, So mel Stewart says he

1299
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 4: only cared about mister Wonka's chocolate being made by a

1300
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 4: group of mysterious candy making elves. So in our research

1301
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 4: it is suggested that mel Stuart pitched green hair and

1302
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 4: orange faces, which seemed to assuage the concerns of the

1303
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 4: actors who had come forward. Now this is interesting, So

1304
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 4: Aaron Stuart also claims that this is partly where the

1305
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 4: title change came from. He claims that there were really

1306
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 4: three reasons why he wanted to change the name to

1307
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 4: Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. The first reason you

1308
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,439
Speaker 4: already pointed out, which is that the story now really

1309
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 4: revolves around Willy Wonka. After we get through act one,

1310
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 4: Willie's the one who goes through the change. The second

1311
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 4: reason was that he didn't want audiences to be confused

1312
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 4: with the shorthand that they would use if they were

1313
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 4: going to recommend the movie to a friend. It would

1314
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 4: be much easier to say I saw Willy Wonka as

1315
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 4: opposed to I saw Charlie. On top of this, one

1316
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 4: of the other issues that some of the black actors

1317
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 4: who had read the script raised with him was that

1318
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 4: Charlie could be used as a pejorative term when speaking

1319
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 4: of an oppressive white man, and so it reinforced this

1320
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 4: idea in the book that Willy Wonka is engaging in

1321
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 4: slave labor. I don't doubt that all of these things

1322
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 4: are true, but my guess is that ultimately this was

1323
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 4: a Quaker Oats decision at the end of the day,

1324
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 4: and that it happened much earlier in the process than

1325
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 4: this laid into the scripting. Yeah, I only mention it

1326
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 4: because Stuart said it. But let's dive into the script.

1327
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 4: So dl agrees to change the oopa lumpus and Aaron.

1328
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 4: As you know, the next publication of the book, I

1329
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,040
Speaker 4: believe the nineteen seventy three version, the description of the

1330
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 4: Oopa Lumpus has changed and they are just knee high

1331
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 4: and given very little description beyond that insofar as the

1332
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 4: color of their skin, et cetera. But in the meantime,

1333
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 4: Dall is writing, and Stuart and Wolper and Marglize know

1334
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 4: they're in trouble because Dall is not changing his script

1335
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 4: beyond the Oompa Lumpas. They need another writer. They want

1336
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 4: it to be bigger, they want it to be funnier.

1337
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 4: They want to add a worldwide search for the Golden tickets.

1338
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 4: So this is a big part of the movie that's

1339
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 4: not a big part of the book. So they hired

1340
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 4: Robert Kaufman, who had just written the totally kid friendly

1341
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 4: Elliott Gould sex rump I Love My Wife that Mel

1342
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 4: Stewart had just directed Kids Love It Now. To be fair,

1343
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 4: he was an Oscar nominee nineteen sixty seven's Divorce American Style,

1344
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 4: and he came up with some great scenes, including Stuart's

1345
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 4: favorite scene that didn't make it into the movie, And

1346
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:45,479
Speaker 4: I want to read it to you guys, So there's

1347
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 4: this craze for wonka bars, and an English explorer climbs

1348
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 4: a holy mountain to beg a guru to tell them

1349
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 4: the meaning of life. Here's a description. There is snow

1350
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 4: and ice everywhere as the explorer, with torn clothes, enters

1351
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 4: a cave and kneels at the feet of a guru.

1352
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 4: The explorer says, oh, great, Guru, I've been climbing for days.

1353
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 4: My party is lost. I'm hungry, freezing and exhausted. But

1354
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 4: I need to know what is the meaning of life?

1355
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 4: And the guru says, you have wonka bar and explorer says, yes, yes,

1356
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 4: I do. It's my last bit of food. You can

1357
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 4: have it, but please tell me what's the meaning of life.

1358
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 4: The guru opens the wonka bar and discovers there is

1359
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 4: no golden ticket and discuss he throws it on the

1360
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 4: floor of the cave. The explorer says, now, oh, Guru,

1361
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 4: tell me what is the meaning of life? And the

1362
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 4: guru says, life is a disappointment.

1363
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:25,439
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

1364
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 4: It's a really good scene. So Dall turns in his

1365
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 4: second draft in June. To be clear, Dall does not

1366
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 4: know that they are engaging with another writer. Dall believes

1367
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 4: he is the only writer on this project. Two months

1368
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 4: before shooting is about to begin, Stuart says that this

1369
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 4: draft is an improvement, but it still needs work. So

1370
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 4: Doll goes back to start on a third draft, and

1371
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 4: in the meantime, Wolper, Stewart, and Marglize bring on another writer.

1372
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 4: This time they hired thirty year old David Seltzer, who

1373
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 4: had never written a screenplay before. I think that they

1374
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 4: got him because he was free. So he'd worked for

1375
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 4: David Wolper writing for the Oscar winning documentary The Helstrom Chronicle,

1376
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 4: and he'd also rewritten Arthur's Lessenshire script for The Unfinished

1377
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 4: Journey of Robert Kennedy, another documentary, and he wanted to

1378
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 4: write a real screenplay, and he was very creative. He'd

1379
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 4: written some wacky dialogue that was actually fictional for some

1380
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 4: of these documentaries. And so Wolper calls Seltzer and lays

1381
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 4: it out, look, we don't have a script. This is

1382
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 4: not working with rolldall I cannot be I'm sure he's

1383
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 4: basically revealing he cannot afford somebody big to come in

1384
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 4: and rewrite this, and if this fails, he will have

1385
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 4: failed at bringing Rolldall's book to life you will have

1386
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 4: failed transitioning into narrative film. So he says, Seltzer, you know,

1387
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 4: can you write this movie? And Seltzer says yes, I'm

1388
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 4: your man, and Wolper says, great, here's the deal. I

1389
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 4: can't pay you, I can't give you credit, I can't

1390
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 4: even reveal that you are doing this, but if you

1391
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 4: do it, I promise I will produce your first screenplay.

1392
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 4: And Seltzer says, fine, I'll do it. He starts working

1393
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 4: on the script in secret. And the way that they're

1394
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 4: doing this is that Seltzer would come up with concepts

1395
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 4: and then they would pitch them to Doll as if

1396
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 4: it was their ideas, like Stuart and Will being like, hey,

1397
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 4: we came up with this idea, and they would pitch

1398
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 4: it to Doll and try to get Doll to add

1399
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 4: it into the script. But this is only going to

1400
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 4: get them so far, so they finally, after Dahl submits

1401
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 4: his third draft, they fly Seltzer to Munich to polish

1402
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 4: Doll's work. They lock him in a hotel room and

1403
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 4: Seltzer described it as a baptism by fire, the hardest,

1404
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 4: most frightening work I've probably ever had to do in

1405
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 4: my life. And by the way, he's doing it on

1406
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 4: a German typewriter. There is no final draft, there is

1407
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 4: no copy find in replace, like he is taking existing

1408
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 4: pages and rewriting them by hand. So let's talk about

1409
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 4: some of the changes. So the Everlasting Gobstopper tests that

1410
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 4: becomes the final turn of the movie. That was Seltzer.

1411
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 3: Wow.

1412
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 4: So that was obviously not part of Doll. He beefed

1413
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 4: up the part with mister Slugworth, made him a double

1414
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 4: agent and a villain, which was obviously not Doll. He

1415
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 4: added the scene where Grandpa Joe and Charlie disobey Wonka

1416
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 4: by drinking the fizzy lifting drinks, and he changed for

1417
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 4: uk assaults punishment. So in the book, right, it's squirrels

1418
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 4: with walnuts and the squirrels throw her down a tube.

1419
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 4: They can't do one hundred squirrels doing that. They would

1420
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 4: do it in the Burton versus, so he changes it

1421
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 4: to geese slaying the golden eggs. I assumed he also

1422
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 4: did the teacher in the classroom that was roll Doll.

1423
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 4: That's not in the book either. Yeah, Okay, Seltzer has

1424
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 4: said it's not really mine it's roll dolls. I did

1425
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 4: some patchwork on it.

1426
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 3: Those are some pretty massive patches though, I mean he

1427
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:17,439
Speaker 3: provided the things that.

1428
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 1: Literally those are big structural changes.

1429
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 3: Yes, I would agree they are good ones.

1430
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 4: Those are the things, candidly that make it a movie.

1431
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

1432
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 4: They give it some conflict, they give it some narrative tension. Yeah,

1433
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 4: I think, very smart ideas, and they were not easily won.

1434
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 4: So the script is not done, but they have to

1435
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 4: start shooting. Principal photography begins on August thirty first, nineteen seventy.

1436
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 4: The budget is two point nine million dollars. They cannot

1437
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 4: go over. There's no studio backstopping this. This is Quaker Oats.

1438
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 4: Quaker Oats is not going to just give them another

1439
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 4: million dollars. They also had a Quaker Oaps representative on set,

1440
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 4: which I'd just like to imagine as the guy on

1441
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 4: the Quaker Oats logo on set at all times. According

1442
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 4: to Julie don Cole, one of the ways that they

1443
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 4: kept costs down was by paying the child actor sixty

1444
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 4: British pounds per filming week. Per week. This was ten

1445
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 4: dollars more per week than Jerry Marin child actor had

1446
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 4: gotten on The Wizard of Oz Oh Wow, decades earlier. Yeah, so,

1447
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 4: the children recorded demos of their songs with composer Walter Sharf,

1448
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 4: and these were obviously played back during filming for lip syncing.

1449
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 4: The songs may have been done, but the script was

1450
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 4: not done. They are on set and David Seltzer is

1451
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 4: writing while they are in production. He is writing on set,

1452
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 4: and so he's writing out of order because they're not

1453
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 4: shooting chronologically. At the beginning of the day, they'd say, Okay,

1454
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 4: here's what we're shooting today or here's what we're shooting

1455
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 4: this week, and he would start working on those pages

1456
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 4: so early on. This meant he had to write new

1457
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 4: dialogue to get in and out of the musical numbers

1458
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 4: that they had already recorded. So because they had written

1459
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 4: Pure Imagination and The Candyman before the movie was written,

1460
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 4: he then had to come up with what's the scene

1461
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 4: that's going to lead into this and how are we

1462
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 4: going to get out of it? In every case, and

1463
01:07:56,240 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 4: then Roll Dahl finds out that he's being rewritten during production. Aaron,

1464
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 4: how do you think Roll responded to finding out that

1465
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 4: he was being rewritten? Not only was he being rewritten,

1466
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 4: he was being rewritten by a thirty year old without

1467
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,439
Speaker 4: a single screenplay credit to his name.

1468
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 1: I don't think he liked it very much.

1469
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 4: So he calls up the production. This may have been

1470
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 4: when Seltzer was on set, and he says, I know

1471
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 4: you're rewriting me. I am disturbed by this fact. I

1472
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 4: want you to come to my house on the outskirts

1473
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 4: of London and bring the script with you. So that weekend,

1474
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 4: Mel Stewart flies to London, drives to dolls house and

1475
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 4: hands him the script, and Dall asks him to wait

1476
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 4: there while he reads it. Let's bear in mind roll

1477
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 4: Dall is six foot six inches tall. Also worth mentioning that,

1478
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 4: David Wolper says it was David Seltzer who went to

1479
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 4: Doll's house with the script. But that would have been

1480
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:47,440
Speaker 4: very unusual.

1481
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: No, in Hollywood, usually the rewriter never meets the original writer.

1482
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 4: No, oh no, like never the twains shall meet. There

1483
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 4: is a final draft is dropped in an anonymous box somewhere,

1484
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, and then given away. It's

1485
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 4: like spy work.

1486
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1487
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 4: So a couple hours later, according to Stuart, Dall came

1488
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 4: down the stairs. He handed the script back to me

1489
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 4: and said that he agreed with the changes. I went

1490
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 4: back to Munich and that was that. It's really interesting.

1491
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 4: So Wolper says that Doll was really upset, but he

1492
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:20,719
Speaker 4: didn't fight the changes. And I wonder, Aaron if, even

1493
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 4: though he was dissatisfied with the movie, I wonder if

1494
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,680
Speaker 4: he recognized that these changes were kind of necessary to

1495
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 4: give it the dramatic structure it needed to be to

1496
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 4: be a movie.

1497
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might be right.

1498
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,320
Speaker 4: I'm just curious what you think, because you know Dahl

1499
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 4: better than I do.

1500
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 1: I think that there's also a chance that he was

1501
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: just done with Hollywood.

1502
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 6: Sure.

1503
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: At this point, remember, he was fully writing his children's

1504
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: books and was becoming a giant hit, you know, incredibly successful,

1505
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: way more successful than he ever was in Hollywood. So

1506
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: I think there's a chance he was just like, you

1507
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 1: know what, I got other I got other fish to fry.

1508
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 1: You know, I'm doing my thing here. You guys, just

1509
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:55,799
Speaker 1: go make this movie.

1510
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 4: I also wonder if he was feeling still somewhat optimistic

1511
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 4: about the film because of how it was looking. And

1512
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 4: so one thing that everybody on this production says is

1513
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 4: that basically art director Harper Goff was working magic with

1514
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 4: no money. When you think about the Chocolate Room and

1515
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,719
Speaker 4: how much they made this for, it's actually a really

1516
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 4: impressive accomplishment, Like this is a set with flowing water

1517
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 4: and a boat and edible scenery filling up an entire

1518
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 4: sound stage or studio space, made for almost nothing. Everybody

1519
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 4: thought it was incredible. In fact, Julie don Cole says

1520
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 4: that their first reaction when they walk in to see

1521
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 4: the Chocolate Room is the one that's used in the movie,

1522
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 4: and it was real. They hadn't seen it before, and

1523
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 4: they filmed them coming in to see it for the

1524
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 4: first time. And somebody that actually agreed is role doll.

1525
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 4: He did not like the screenplay, but he actually was

1526
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 4: really impressed with the production design and I want to

1527
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 4: play a brief clip and this show's doll on set.

1528
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 4: He did visit the production while they were filming.

1529
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 5: In the book, one can imagine these different rooms just

1530
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 5: as large as one wants to to, how big and

1531
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 5: marvelous you can make them. But within those limits, he's

1532
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 5: what He's almost gone beyond them. I shud thinks he

1533
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 5: built the most marvelous and enormous sets, build with every

1534
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 5: kind of ingenious gadget and beauty as well. I think

1535
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 5: he's a very very clever man.

1536
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 4: I actually think this pretty high praise coming from Dahl

1537
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 4: speaking of Harper Goth it is.

1538
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 1: But also let's remember like Doll was a good businessman's

1539
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 1: true and he knew that if he was saying terrible

1540
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 1: things about the movie before it came out, that it

1541
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: would hurt the business, right, and so not only might

1542
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 1: it detract from the title, but also he's going to

1543
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: get royalties since it's his name on the screenplay, So

1544
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 1: years later he's going to do nothing but trash the movie.

1545
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 1: But right now in the marketing phase, yeah, he knows

1546
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: how to play his role.

1547
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,639
Speaker 3: And also like production design doesn't infringe on his sort

1548
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 3: of creative arts the same way that the screenwriting changes do,

1549
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 3: so that maybe this was a bit easier for him

1550
01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 3: to be like, yes, beautiful, great job.

1551
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 4: Well, and also Harper Gough was treating the text as

1552
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 4: pretty faithful, something sacred to be followed, right as opposed

1553
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 4: to Stuart. Regardless, it seems like Goff and his sets,

1554
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 4: you know, and this production design was kind of like

1555
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,680
Speaker 4: universally appreciated right off the bat, whereas mel Stewart, the

1556
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 4: director was a bit more of unacquired taste. Now, over

1557
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:21,679
Speaker 4: the years, he became known for having a bad temper.

1558
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 4: Director David Vasser would later describe this temper as legendary.

1559
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:27,679
Speaker 4: Here's the quote, and the most retold of mel Stuart's stories.

1560
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:29,759
Speaker 4: He was on location in Africa with a small documentary

1561
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,759
Speaker 4: unit when he wandered into quicksand. While he was slowly sinking,

1562
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:35,120
Speaker 4: so the tale goes, his crew discussed the merits of

1563
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 4: pulling him out or letting him slowly slide under the

1564
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 4: mud with the sand up to his neck, they threw

1565
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 4: him a rope. I think that this was a difficult

1566
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,719
Speaker 4: production for everybody given the budget, but I would imagine

1567
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 4: it was not made easier by having a director who

1568
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 4: was a perfectionist and did not seem to have a

1569
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 4: lot of warmth for his actors. Julie don Cole later

1570
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 4: said he had little tolerance for mediocrity. There were many

1571
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 4: hurt feelings when a performance wasn't up to the caliber

1572
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 4: he desired. Had you had memories of him screaming God,

1573
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 4: damn it across the set, And it seems to Melstewart's

1574
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 4: you know, maybe not credit, but to give him some defense.

1575
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 4: He was under an incredible amount of pressure and he

1576
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 4: knew that there was only one chance to get this right.

1577
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 4: So they were following immediately behind schedule. They did not

1578
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 4: have the staff or the infrastructure to light the enormous

1579
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 4: chocolate room, so every time they changed the perspective of

1580
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 4: the camera it took a reset. That was just eating

1581
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 4: and eating up so much time. They were trying to

1582
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 4: shoot with a boat, which is always a nightmare because

1583
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 4: it just keeps moving and you can never get your

1584
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 4: camera set. And he did a lot of takes. He

1585
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 4: was more like Stanley Kubrick than he was Clint Eastwood.

1586
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 4: Rusty GoF said it took sixty to seventy takes to

1587
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 4: capture the scene in the TV room where the Oop

1588
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 4: Balloom are doing cartwheels and headstands. It took forty takes

1589
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 4: for when Augustus Gloop falls into the river. Oh my god,

1590
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:49,719
Speaker 4: It took twenty takes for Mike TV's dad to perfect

1591
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 4: the line not till You're twelve, son, which is a

1592
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,639
Speaker 4: line that doesn't even need to be in the movie. Really,

1593
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 4: if it's going to cost you too.

1594
01:13:58,200 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 3: Much time, yeah, that's exhausting.

1595
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:04,719
Speaker 4: And this set, unfortunately was not a safe set because

1596
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 4: it was being made so cheaply. So the white substance

1597
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 4: spewed by the wancamobile was fire extinguish or fluid. It

1598
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 4: gave everybody a rash. Most of the Chocolate River was

1599
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 4: dangerously shallow. It was just two feet deep, so they

1600
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 4: actually dug a hole where Michael Bolner would jump in

1601
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 4: as Augustus Glupe, but if he missed it, it would

1602
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 4: have been like jumping into a shallow pool.

1603
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:22,880
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1604
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 4: Julie don Cole had split ends that the hairdresser didn't like,

1605
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 4: so they'd burn them off every morning, which is why

1606
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 4: if you watch carefully, her hair actually gets shorter throughout

1607
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:30,879
Speaker 4: the movie.

1608
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 1: The seventies Man. It was different time filmmaking that would

1609
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: not fly today.

1610
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 4: No well, and also not being shot in the United States,

1611
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 4: I think, away from the prying eyes of any studio

1612
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 4: or OSHA, you know. Peter Ostrom references Nickerson, who plays

1613
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 4: Violet Beauregard, said it was very scarius and sometimes painful

1614
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 4: to get rolled around in the Big Blueberry contraption. There's

1615
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 4: basically an inflatable version and then there's a styrofoam version

1616
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:53,840
Speaker 4: for rolling her around. And it took her so long

1617
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 4: to get into the syrofoam one that she couldn't break

1618
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 4: for lunch because it would take her too long to

1619
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,439
Speaker 4: get back into it. So during lunch they would have

1620
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 4: a grip feed her through a straw and then they

1621
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 4: would have to roll her a quarter turn every fifteen

1622
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,839
Speaker 4: minutes to keep the blood flowing evenly throughout her body.

1623
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 4: And she said the worst part actually wasn't that, it's

1624
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 4: that she had to pick her nose on screen, which

1625
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 4: she didn't want to do because she had a big

1626
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,599
Speaker 4: crush on Peter Ostrom, her co star, and she thought

1627
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 4: it was going to gross some out, which was very sweet.

1628
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 4: And then Julie don Cole said that they actually became

1629
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 4: very close friends, she and Nickerson, but there was some

1630
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:26,720
Speaker 4: tension because they both had crushes on Peter Ostrom while

1631
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 4: they were filming. Now, let's talk about the scariest scene,

1632
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 4: which is the tunnel scene, which is so weird. Lizzie,

1633
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 4: can you describe some of the imagery that we see

1634
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:37,879
Speaker 4: on the walls during the scene.

1635
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,759
Speaker 3: I don't even know. It's just it's horrifying. It's dark,

1636
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 3: the colors are really dark. It's very like MK ultra

1637
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 3: e where there's just sort of things flashing at different times.

1638
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:50,880
Speaker 3: You do see you know Slugworth's terrifying face. You see

1639
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 3: like a chicken at one point, or.

1640
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:54,720
Speaker 1: I just see a chicken get his head cut off.

1641
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,400
Speaker 3: Chicken's head being chopped off. Yeah, that's the one. It's

1642
01:15:58,400 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 3: not for kids.

1643
01:15:59,439 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1644
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,720
Speaker 4: So what's interesting is that specifically that millipede shot was

1645
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 4: actually the suggestion of writer Whyalan Green. Are you guys

1646
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:09,760
Speaker 4: familiar with his credits Willy and Green, writer of the

1647
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 4: Wild Bunch and Sorcerer. So he had worked on the

1648
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 4: Hellstrom Chronicle with mel Stewart, and when mel Stewart called him,

1649
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 4: He's like, I need some grotesque imagery to make this

1650
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,600
Speaker 4: nightmare sequence. He said, what about? He actually pitched a

1651
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 4: centipede going across a person's face, and that's actually Whyalen

1652
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,680
Speaker 4: Green's face with the millipede going across it.

1653
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: Oh interesting.

1654
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 4: Some of the kids actually thought gene Wilder had gone

1655
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,879
Speaker 4: insane while shooting that scene. His performance was so convincing.

1656
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the images are nothing compared to what gene Wilder

1657
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: is doing. Yeah, he's so scary in that scene.

1658
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing, Like I actually remember him more

1659
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 3: in that than I do the images.

1660
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 4: You really think, maybe we're going to hell right now

1661
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 4: with this guy, and it's a big difference I think

1662
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 4: between him and the depth performance as well. But we

1663
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:51,920
Speaker 4: should mention too that the oompa loompas I think had

1664
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 4: a really hard time on this project as well. This

1665
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 4: was an international cast. Rusty Goff later said, you know,

1666
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 4: there were basically five little people working in the business

1667
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 4: in London at the time, so they expanded their search

1668
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 4: to you know, Munich and Malta and Turkey, and so

1669
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 4: they had ten actors whose age ranges were from their

1670
01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 4: twenties to their seventies, and the lead role went to

1671
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 4: English actor Rusty Goff, and Stuart hired him because he'd

1672
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:13,799
Speaker 4: performed Shakespeare, but he'd never been in a movie before.

1673
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 4: This was his first film. They had to learn these

1674
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 4: dance numbers, which again some of these actors are, you know,

1675
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 4: seventy years old. This is very physically demanding, and there's

1676
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 4: also a language barrier. They don't all speak English, so

1677
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 4: Stuart's directing them with hand signals and they have to

1678
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 4: lip sync English words for all of these songs. So

1679
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 4: I just want to really emphasize the difficulty that they

1680
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:43,840
Speaker 4: were pulling off here. So that production is heading into

1681
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:46,559
Speaker 4: its final stretch. And the problem that Stuart has is

1682
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 4: that the ending of the movie that Doll has written

1683
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 4: isn't great. The ending of the movie is Grandpa Joe

1684
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,600
Speaker 4: saying Yippy. That's the last line of the movie in

1685
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 4: Roll dolls script. And Mel Stewart hates it. So he

1686
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 4: called for David Seltzer and the production says David Seltz

1687
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,920
Speaker 4: has gone home. He says what David Selter had been

1688
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,439
Speaker 4: working twenty hour days for a month. So he left

1689
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:09,519
Speaker 4: the production and went to a log cabin near a

1690
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 4: lake in Maine. He was about to go fly fishing

1691
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 4: and the phone rings. And by phone, I mean there

1692
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 4: is one pay phone and if it rings, whoever's near

1693
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:18,799
Speaker 4: it is supposed to answer and then take a message

1694
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 4: for whoever it's for. He goes and answers the phone

1695
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,719
Speaker 4: and it's the worst call ever. It's Mel Stuart calling

1696
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 4: from Munich. Here's Stuart.

1697
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 6: What are you doing?

1698
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 4: Seltzer?

1699
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 6: I'm on vacation. I know you're on vacation, but I'll

1700
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 6: tell you what. I'm here and there are dozens of

1701
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 6: people and we're spending a lot of money, and we

1702
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 6: can't finish the film, and I want the end line

1703
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 6: of this picture. Seltzer, well, when do you want it now?

1704
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 6: I want it now, like in the song I want

1705
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 6: it now, I want it now.

1706
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 4: Apparently Stuart gave Seltzer five minutes. Seltzer came back and

1707
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 4: he said, Mel, this is really lame, but how about this.

1708
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 4: They go up into their spacecraft looking down on the

1709
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 4: chocolate factory and Willy Wank is telling Charlie all the

1710
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 4: wonderful things he's going to have, and he looks at

1711
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,080
Speaker 4: him very seriously, and he says, but Charlie, do you

1712
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 4: know what happened to the man who got everything he

1713
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,599
Speaker 4: always wanted? And Charlie fearfully says what And he says

1714
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,839
Speaker 4: he lived happily ever after. And there's a long pause

1715
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 4: and David Seltzer goes, mel are you there, and Stewart

1716
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 4: just goes, fantastic. That's it, And that's how you got

1717
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 4: the end of the movie. It's something that David Seltzer

1718
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:12,719
Speaker 4: came up with in five minutes. And I'm so curious

1719
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 4: to you guys have any interpretation. I have no idea

1720
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 4: what to think of those last lines of this movie.

1721
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 4: I find them like weirdly confusing. Is it intended to

1722
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 4: be sinister? Is it intended to be reassuring? You know

1723
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:24,600
Speaker 4: what I'm saying. I'm just like not sure what to

1724
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:25,640
Speaker 4: take with it.

1725
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:28,719
Speaker 3: It played very sinister to me, I'll be honest, because

1726
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,519
Speaker 3: it's such a weird tonal shift for him to take

1727
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:34,599
Speaker 3: at that point, and the way that Gene Wilder plays

1728
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 3: it also feels like manically sincere I don't know, Aaron,

1729
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 3: what did you think?

1730
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 1: I mean? I think it sort of reinforces the idea

1731
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 1: that they think of this as a fairy tale, and

1732
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 1: so that's sort of a classic way to end a fairytale,

1733
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 1: right happily ever after, but with a little bit of undermining, which, yeah,

1734
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 1: so I think it works well.

1735
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 4: So they go into post production, and to be clear,

1736
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 4: they have not shot all of the Search for the

1737
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 4: Golden Ticket scenes. They've really just shot the Munich portion.

1738
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:00,799
Speaker 1: Of this movie.

1739
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 4: They start editing the movie. David Seltzer comes back on

1740
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 4: to write some more of those you know, Search for

1741
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,720
Speaker 4: the Golden Ticket scenes, and there are two scenes that

1742
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 4: Stuart loved that audiences didn't.

1743
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 1: One of them.

1744
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:14,639
Speaker 4: Stayed in the movie, and this is the Argentinian man

1745
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 4: who cheats and finds the fifth ticket, right, this is

1746
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:18,640
Speaker 4: not in the book. In the book, there is a

1747
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 4: Russian character very early on briefly mentioned who apparently falsified

1748
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 4: finding a ticket the photograph. Do you guys know who

1749
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:27,559
Speaker 4: the photograph is of? When they played on the news

1750
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 4: this Argentinian man in the movie, I did not know this.

1751
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 4: That is Martin Borman, who was Hitler's aid in his

1752
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,719
Speaker 4: final days, who had escaped to Paraguay, according to legend,

1753
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 4: And they thought it would be a funny joke that like,

1754
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:43,559
Speaker 4: what if a secret Nazi found the Golden Ticket? Whoa

1755
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 4: Nobody understood it? Nobody ever understood it. No, Stuart was like,

1756
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:51,360
Speaker 4: nobody understood it at all. And the scene that did

1757
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 4: get cut that Stuart loved was the scene with the

1758
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 4: Guru on the Holy Mountain. So they shot that scene

1759
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:59,800
Speaker 4: and they played the test screening and nobody laughed, and

1760
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 4: Stuart was stunned. He thought this joke was amazing. So

1761
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:05,240
Speaker 4: he invites the psychologist's friends to the next screening to

1762
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 4: help him understand. And do you guys have any guesses

1763
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 4: as to why the psychologist believes nobody was laughing at

1764
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:14,240
Speaker 4: that joke. No, he said, you don't understand mel. For

1765
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 4: a great many people, life is a disappointment and that

1766
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 4: it maybe just was too close to home for audiences.

1767
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 4: So Stuart cut the scene. So they hire a special

1768
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 4: effects company to come in to do the final Wonkavator

1769
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 4: shot in the air, and when they did this, it

1770
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:34,200
Speaker 4: didn't include Grandpa Joe because the FX team thought that

1771
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 4: in the footage they had been sent, Jack Albertson was

1772
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 4: a crew member making adjustments on the set and not

1773
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 4: a character in the movie, so they had to redo

1774
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:44,679
Speaker 4: the miniature with Jack Albertson inside of it. They also

1775
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 4: did them with the fizzy lifting drinks as well. That composition.

1776
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 4: So David Wolper has a movie in the can and

1777
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 4: he goes to Paramount and they get a seven year

1778
01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:54,680
Speaker 4: license on this movie. Revenues first going to go to

1779
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 4: Quaker Oats until they recoup the budget. Then the profits

1780
01:21:56,920 --> 01:21:59,600
Speaker 4: are split fifty to fifty. The Wonka Bar is just

1781
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 4: Quacker Wrotes and maybe this is part of the problem.

1782
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 4: Nobody seems to have a full stake in this movie.

1783
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 4: So like a lot of the children in rolls All's books,

1784
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:10,840
Speaker 4: Willy Wanka on the chocolate Factory was kind of left

1785
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:13,880
Speaker 4: to fend for itself. Paramount didn't have a strategy for

1786
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,719
Speaker 4: selling it, according to Wolper. Stewart says that they vetoed

1787
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:18,960
Speaker 4: an offer from Radio City Music Hall to showcase the

1788
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 4: film and give it a single city run, which may

1789
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:23,280
Speaker 4: have built buzz that would be like you know, modern

1790
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 4: and modern film, maybe platforming a movie, And instead they

1791
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 4: just opt for general distribution, and Willy Wonka is lost

1792
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 4: in a crowd of summer films. So it premieres in

1793
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 4: Chicago on June twenty eighth, nineteen seventy one, and it's

1794
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 4: dominated across the summer by Love Story. Anybody remember Ryan.

1795
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 1: O'Neil kelligra I liked that movie.

1796
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:41,559
Speaker 4: And there's a bunch of genre films that beat it

1797
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,760
Speaker 4: out to like the Original Willard, the Andromeda Strain, the

1798
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 4: Omega man Clute. Oh yeah, now, maybe like Doll's Stories.

1799
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:51,280
Speaker 4: It would do better in the UK. So it premieres

1800
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:53,879
Speaker 4: in London in December of nineteen seventy one, and Princess

1801
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 4: Margaret attended quote an aid of the National Society for

1802
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 4: the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, which was a great

1803
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 4: look because a lot of people said this movie is

1804
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 4: so cruel to children.

1805
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:05,439
Speaker 3: Yeah so.

1806
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:08,599
Speaker 4: According to Mel Stewart, Willy Wonka was an enormous flop.

1807
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 4: It was number fifty three on the box office chart

1808
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 4: for nineteen seventy one. It grows roughly four million dollars domestically.

1809
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 4: It played for only three days in one theater in Munich,

1810
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 4: which sold out one night thanks to Michael Bowlner's family

1811
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 4: and friends. The reviews didn't help. Variety called it an

1812
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 4: ok musical fantasy. The New York Times said children have

1813
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:26,760
Speaker 4: so few good films to claim as their own, Willy

1814
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:28,799
Speaker 4: Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is not one of them.

1815
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,760
Speaker 4: Gene Siskel gave it two stars, but Roger Ebert loved

1816
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 4: it four stars. He said It's delightful, funny, scary, exciting,

1817
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 4: and most of all, a genuine work of imagination.

1818
01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:38,840
Speaker 1: That's great.

1819
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 4: Well, the newspapers didn't care. They misspelled Willy and the

1820
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 4: Wonka Bar flopped. Aaron, what is one of the reasons

1821
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:45,719
Speaker 4: that the Wonka Bar flopped?

1822
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'm sort of forgetting, But didn't they screwed

1823
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:51,640
Speaker 1: up so that it melted in the package before it

1824
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: was opened.

1825
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 4: Yes, unlike Willy Wonka making ice cream that never melts.

1826
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 4: They made a chocolate bar that always melts, and it flopped.

1827
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 4: The Wonka Bar was a flop. Willy Wonka and the

1828
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 4: Chocolate Factory was a flop. Gene Wilder was convinced he

1829
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:07,280
Speaker 4: was only going to be in flops. He'd been in

1830
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 4: a string of them, so he left for California to

1831
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:11,280
Speaker 4: do Woody Allen's Everything You Always wanted to Know About

1832
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:13,479
Speaker 4: Sex but were afraid to ask, hoping that it would

1833
01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:17,640
Speaker 4: resurrect his career. Dall would later disown the movie in

1834
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:21,040
Speaker 4: many ways, and James and the Giant Peach would never

1835
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 4: be made with David Wolper, and in a weird twist

1836
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 4: of fate, it would eventually be what studio that would

1837
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 4: make James and the Giant Peach.

1838
01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 3: Is it Disney?

1839
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 4: It's Disney, that's right now. Wilder was nominated for a

1840
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:34,920
Speaker 4: Golden Globe for his performance is Willy Wonka and his

1841
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 4: career turned around swiftly. Willy Wonka was nominated for an

1842
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:41,120
Speaker 4: Oscar Song score by Leslie Brickis and Anthony Newley. It

1843
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:43,160
Speaker 4: lost to Fiddler on the Roof.

1844
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 3: Okay, but for whatever reason, Yeah, that's an amazing score.

1845
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:52,400
Speaker 4: For whatever reason, the movie stuck around, and especially after

1846
01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 4: being released on VHS, it became a cult hit. I

1847
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 4: think some people think, you know, it was when Wilder

1848
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 4: became a superstar that people st going back to his

1849
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:03,919
Speaker 4: earlier work. Some people think that it was an audience

1850
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:07,679
Speaker 4: that grew into this type of material that was meant

1851
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 4: to be somewhat edgy for children. Lizzie and I talked

1852
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 4: about this recently. Arin with movies like Labyrinth and The

1853
01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 4: Dark Crystal, even something like Goonies or Temple of Doom,

1854
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:17,720
Speaker 4: there was kind of a darkness to a lot of

1855
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 4: the children's stuff made in the eighties and especially in

1856
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:22,519
Speaker 4: the nineties that was I think that wouldn't quite have

1857
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,880
Speaker 4: fit the seventies in quite the same way. But I

1858
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 4: think part of it is that over time we've actually

1859
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:29,720
Speaker 4: grown to appreciate the movie for what it is and

1860
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:32,759
Speaker 4: for its lack of polish, and not hold it against

1861
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 4: the movie. So I would imagine if a movie's coming

1862
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 4: out in theaters and you go see it and it

1863
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:38,479
Speaker 4: feels a little janky, and it doesn't feel as big

1864
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 4: or imaginative as the book that you've read, it might

1865
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:43,720
Speaker 4: feel like a disappointment. Whereas if you stumbled across this

1866
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 4: movie on TV or on VHS and you just see

1867
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 4: Gene Wilder's unhitched performance and it's clear that they just

1868
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 4: threw themselves headlong into this without actually having the resources

1869
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:54,600
Speaker 4: to make it, that maybe that would be endearing as

1870
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 4: opposed to a turnoff. But I'm really curious what you

1871
01:25:56,680 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 4: guys think.

1872
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't think it

1873
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 1: needs all those I think it's just actually a really

1874
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 1: good movie. I think Gene Wilder, yes, he gives one

1875
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 1: of the all time great performances. It's just so confident.

1876
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:09,560
Speaker 1: I love how much it feels like he's about to

1877
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 1: break the fourth wall, like he's almost going to talk

1878
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 1: directly to the audience into camera, but never quite does,

1879
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,080
Speaker 1: and so you're you're kind of on edge every time

1880
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 1: he opens his mouth. I also think the structure makes

1881
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: absolutely no sense. I mean, it's so weird that it

1882
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 1: starts off as Charlie's movie, and it's like any great

1883
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 1: myth of the hero, where he's going to go on

1884
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 1: an adventure and triumph. But as soon as Act one ends,

1885
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,200
Speaker 1: we are now in Willy Wonka's point of view, and

1886
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 1: it's Willy Wonka who actually does the changing. Charlie doesn't

1887
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:41,360
Speaker 1: change at all. When Charlie wins at the end by

1888
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 1: giving the Gobstopper to Willy Wonka and showing that he's

1889
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:46,880
Speaker 1: not going to betray him. That's something Charlie would have

1890
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 1: done in the first five minutes of the movie. It's

1891
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:51,639
Speaker 1: Willy Wonka who becomes a better man through the course

1892
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 1: of the movie, which is a really kind of cool,

1893
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 1: strange structure that I can't remember seeing before. So no.

1894
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 1: I also I love slug Worth. I loved all of

1895
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 1: those little interludes of seeing each person find the golden ticket.

1896
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 1: I thought those were terrific. Yeah, the movie has so

1897
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 1: much going for it. I guess I'm not shocked that

1898
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't a hit when it came out, just because

1899
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:17,960
Speaker 1: it was so probably unexpected, the darkness and specifically Wilder's performance.

1900
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 1: But yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all that it's

1901
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:22,000
Speaker 1: become a classic.

1902
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that this movie does what the best

1903
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:29,599
Speaker 3: and most enduring quote unquote kids movies do, which is

1904
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:32,559
Speaker 3: that it's very entertaining to watch as a kid. I

1905
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:34,960
Speaker 3: think that the weird structure, to your point, Aaron, actually

1906
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 3: helps with that there's something about this that is very

1907
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 3: sort of childlike, the journey that you're going on, and

1908
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 3: you get to know Charlie, you get to like him,

1909
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 3: and as a kid, then you're kind of along for

1910
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,679
Speaker 3: the ride once he shows up at the factory, which

1911
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:50,599
Speaker 3: I think is very enjoyable as a kid. But then

1912
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 3: this movie is an entirely different movie for adults. And

1913
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:57,800
Speaker 3: so it's one of those movies where kids will watch it,

1914
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,360
Speaker 3: they will be entertained, they enjoy it, and then adults

1915
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:03,839
Speaker 3: will also watch it and be you know, horrified, be laughing,

1916
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 3: be confused, be entertained. It is genuinely something that I

1917
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:10,720
Speaker 3: think everyone of every age can take something out of

1918
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 3: this movie. That's very hard to do, and I think

1919
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:15,759
Speaker 3: a lot of the times, as we've seen on this podcast,

1920
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:18,719
Speaker 3: those movies that achieve that don't necessarily do that well

1921
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 3: at the box office. Some of them do, but especially

1922
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:23,080
Speaker 3: when they're darker and they're like kind of hard to

1923
01:28:23,160 --> 01:28:25,360
Speaker 3: pin down in that way, I feel like they end

1924
01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 3: up having much longer legs.

1925
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1926
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:32,040
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately, Quaker Oats did not participate in the long

1927
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,639
Speaker 4: term financial success of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

1928
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:38,879
Speaker 4: So in nineteen seventy seven, David Wolper sold his company

1929
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 4: to Warner Brothers, and he convinced Quaker Oats to sell

1930
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 4: its fifty percent stake in the movie for five hundred

1931
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. I'm guessing that Warner Brothers didn't just want

1932
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:49,680
Speaker 4: fifty percent of that movie. I'm guessing if they were

1933
01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:52,080
Speaker 4: going to buy Wolper's company, they wanted everything out right.

1934
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 4: Warner Brothers then turned around and made a fortune on

1935
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 4: the VHS of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. In fact,

1936
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 4: on its twenty fifth anniversary, they rely it in theaters,

1937
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:02,720
Speaker 4: and then they did a new release of the home

1938
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:05,839
Speaker 4: video vhs at that point. Now I should mention Ken Mason,

1939
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 4: who had been the Quaker Oats representative who Wolper was

1940
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 4: working it with at the time. It doesn't seem like

1941
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 4: he minded. He'd quit Quaker Oats after a brief stint

1942
01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:15,720
Speaker 4: as president and COO in the mid nineteen seventies, and

1943
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:18,439
Speaker 4: he did spend his later years writing passionately about the

1944
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:22,240
Speaker 4: effects of advertising, corporations and television on children in kind

1945
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 4: of an odd Dolly in turn. Now, some of the

1946
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:27,160
Speaker 4: child actors continued working, but they all eventually left the

1947
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:30,840
Speaker 4: movie industry, and I will say, despite candidly what seemed

1948
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:33,479
Speaker 4: like very unsafe conditions on this set, it doesn't seem

1949
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:35,880
Speaker 4: like anyone was hurt, and they all speak fondly of

1950
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 4: their adult co stars and their experiences on this movie.

1951
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:41,960
Speaker 4: Roll Dahl died in nineteen ninety. This was a few

1952
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 4: years after giving an interview that revealed a virulent anti

1953
01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:48,200
Speaker 4: Semitic streak. If you want to learn more about that,

1954
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,519
Speaker 4: please listen to Aaron's incredible coverage, and I believe the

1955
01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:55,599
Speaker 4: seventh episode of his podcast, The Secret World of Roll Dahl.

1956
01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:59,280
Speaker 4: It's a really complicated history, and I think especially then

1957
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:02,240
Speaker 4: in the eighth and ninth episodes, when you discuss the

1958
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 4: fans dilemma and how do we engage with work created

1959
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 4: by people who have moral failings or believe things that

1960
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 4: we do not agree with. It's a really wonderful conversation

1961
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:13,800
Speaker 4: and I felt very illuminating as we talk on this

1962
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 4: podcast about directors you know, and who have problematic histories

1963
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:17,559
Speaker 4: and whatnot.

1964
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thanks, I'm so glad. Yeah.

1965
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 4: Roldall's works were purchased by Netflix in twenty twenty one

1966
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:26,679
Speaker 4: for a reported one billion dollars, and at that time

1967
01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:29,280
Speaker 4: his family did issue an apology for his anti Semitic

1968
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 4: remarks that remains online that you can go see. And

1969
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 4: of course, most recently his works have been adapted by

1970
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 4: I think, perhaps most successfully Wes Anderson, who seems to

1971
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:42,680
Speaker 4: be an oddly perfect fit for the Dollyan's sensibilities and

1972
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 4: seems to be able to give it a quick, witted life.

1973
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:49,200
Speaker 4: So Gene Wilder gives I think Willy Wonka the energy

1974
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:51,720
Speaker 4: that he needs to exist as a character, and I

1975
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 4: feel that that's completely absent from Johnny Depp's interpretation of

1976
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,040
Speaker 4: the character in two thousand and five, even though Burton

1977
01:30:57,080 --> 01:30:59,240
Speaker 4: seems like an obvious fit, and Wes Anderson seems like

1978
01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:02,120
Speaker 4: a great mix of the two with he's an incredibly

1979
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 4: heightened visual stylist, but he also has that kind of

1980
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,760
Speaker 4: energy and warmth that you need to bring Doll's kind

1981
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:11,760
Speaker 4: of dry British sensibilities to life. Now let's end with

1982
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 4: Gene Wilder, because in two thousand and two he said,

1983
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,080
Speaker 4: I don't want my gravestone to say Willy Wonka lies year,

1984
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:20,680
Speaker 4: Doctor Frankenstein. I wouldn't mind. And Gene Wilder did die

1985
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen, and as one of his biographers put it,

1986
01:31:23,439 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 4: every single obituary highlighted Willy Wonka. And I did pull

1987
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,840
Speaker 4: up the New York Times obituary, which did say star

1988
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 4: of Willy Wonka and young Frankenstein. And so I just

1989
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:36,000
Speaker 4: do think it's funny that you do not get to

1990
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 4: choose the thing that you are remembered for. And in

1991
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 4: a sense, like Roal Dahl, who resisted children's stories for

1992
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 4: so long and Mel Stewart who resisted making a children's movie,

1993
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:48,880
Speaker 4: Gene Wilder two was trapped in the legacy of Willy

1994
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 4: Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. So, Aaron, we end with

1995
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 4: a segment called what went Right, where we pick at

1996
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:56,240
Speaker 4: least you know one thing from the movie that for

1997
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:59,120
Speaker 4: us in particular went right when so much often goes wrong.

1998
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:01,599
Speaker 4: And perhaps you would like to go first, what went

1999
01:32:01,680 --> 01:32:03,639
Speaker 4: right on Willy Wonka on the Chocolate Factory.

2000
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:06,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to say what went right? Here is the

2001
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:09,400
Speaker 3: unsung hero of the screenplay. It sounds like David Seltzer.

2002
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 2: You know.

2003
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:13,680
Speaker 3: The changes that you said that he made are pretty

2004
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:17,600
Speaker 3: major structural changes to this that make it have some

2005
01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 3: kind of story arc. Without that, it really doesn't. I mean,

2006
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 3: that's amazing. I didn't know that those changes were not

2007
01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:27,360
Speaker 3: original to roll Doll, So I have to give it

2008
01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:29,360
Speaker 3: to him. He was in an impossible position and he

2009
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 3: seems to have done a pretty incredible job here.

2010
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 4: I agree. I think he made subtle yet crucial changes,

2011
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 4: and those are the hardest. And Aaron, your screen writer,

2012
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:40,679
Speaker 4: you can speak to this. I mean, I think it's

2013
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 4: really hard not to try to reconceptualize something from the

2014
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:46,720
Speaker 4: ground up, sort of structurally, and to be able to

2015
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 4: go in surgically and say I'm just going to add this, this,

2016
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 4: and this and that's going to give it a completely

2017
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:53,800
Speaker 4: new valance is very impressive.

2018
01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:56,080
Speaker 1: And to do that while they're shooting. Yeah. Yeah, so

2019
01:32:56,120 --> 01:32:58,599
Speaker 1: it's you know, thirty thousand dollars an hour or whatever,

2020
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 1: and he's got a come up with all of these

2021
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: solutions on the fly. Yeah, that's an incredibly hard job.

2022
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 4: Aaron, how about you.

2023
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it to Mel Stewart. I was

2024
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 1: kind of shocked after watching the movie looking up the director,

2025
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:12,559
Speaker 1: and I had never seen another of his movies. I've

2026
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:15,240
Speaker 1: almost ever heard of another of his movies, which is

2027
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:18,639
Speaker 1: bizarre because this is actually a really good directing job.

2028
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 1: This is a hard directing job. The movie goes through

2029
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:24,400
Speaker 1: so many different tones. It easily could have fallen apart.

2030
01:33:24,479 --> 01:33:26,320
Speaker 1: It could have fallen into horror, It could have fallen

2031
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 1: into fantasy, it could have fallen into just a sacering

2032
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:32,679
Speaker 1: kids movie. But he's balancing all of those different kinds

2033
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:35,799
Speaker 1: of tones, which is, you know, really really, really difficult.

2034
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 1: So I'm curious about mel Stewart. I don't quite understand.

2035
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the movie you know obviously was a flop,

2036
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,200
Speaker 1: and so that's probably why he you know, didn't work again,

2037
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 1: you know, outside of the documentary world. But I was

2038
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 1: really surprised that he hasn't directed a handful of my

2039
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:50,160
Speaker 1: other favorite movies.

2040
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 4: I wonder how much he wanted to direct narrative film

2041
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:56,439
Speaker 4: in the sense that it seems like he would get

2042
01:33:56,479 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 4: frustrated with the pace and with working with actors based

2043
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:01,760
Speaker 4: on the stories that I read, And it seems like

2044
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 4: with documentary there's a lot more A lot of the

2045
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,639
Speaker 4: documentaries he did were working with existing footage and then

2046
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 4: adding in talking heads, you know what I mean, and

2047
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 4: narration and whatnot, And so I wonder if there was

2048
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 4: just a level of control with documentary that was preferable

2049
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 4: to him creatively. I agree, you know, obviously, with that flop,

2050
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 4: and it's made outside of the studio system. I'm sure

2051
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:23,080
Speaker 4: that Hollywood wasn't, you know, knocking down his door trying

2052
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,080
Speaker 4: to get him to direct another movie. But you would

2053
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:27,519
Speaker 4: imagine that he could have gotten another movie made. But

2054
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,799
Speaker 4: I agree he did an amazing job with the movie.

2055
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:32,679
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give mine, well, so somebody should give those

2056
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 4: to Gene Wilder.

2057
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 3: So we can all give ours to Gene Wide.

2058
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:37,439
Speaker 4: Okay, well, I'll give it to Gene Wilder. I'll give

2059
01:34:37,479 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 4: mine to Brickus and Newly because that damn song pure imagination.

2060
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:44,600
Speaker 4: I could have sung that melody ever since I was

2061
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:47,679
Speaker 4: a kid. And the Candy Man, The Candy Man, Yeah,

2062
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 4: they wrote some great music, and this movie it's odd

2063
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,559
Speaker 4: that it has touch good music in a sense outside

2064
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:55,840
Speaker 4: of again, the traditional Hollywood system, So I'll give.

2065
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:56,160
Speaker 1: It to them.

2066
01:34:56,439 --> 01:34:57,800
Speaker 4: That brings us to the end of our coverage of

2067
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:00,639
Speaker 4: Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Aaron. I just really

2068
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:02,720
Speaker 4: want to reiterate what a pleasure it was to listen

2069
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 4: to your show, thank you, and what a treat it

2070
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:08,080
Speaker 4: was to have you on as an expert on Roll

2071
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:11,640
Speaker 4: Dall and all of this material. It's so illuminating and

2072
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 4: it's such an interesting story. Please plug your show, tell

2073
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 4: the folks where they can find it, and anything else

2074
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:18,639
Speaker 4: that you have going on that they should check out.

2075
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called The Secret World of Roll Doll And

2076
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:23,759
Speaker 1: it's on Apple, it's on Spotify, it's wherever you're listening

2077
01:35:23,760 --> 01:35:25,960
Speaker 1: to this, you can listen to it. We just aired

2078
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:28,960
Speaker 1: our ninth episode, but we've got another one coming up,

2079
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:31,120
Speaker 1: and then we've got some bonus episodes and hope to

2080
01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 1: do a whole nother season. So probably not about Roll Dall,

2081
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:37,519
Speaker 1: but another interesting profile of someone who has a bit

2082
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,320
Speaker 1: of a secret life. And yeah, I just want to

2083
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:42,040
Speaker 1: thank you guys so much for having me on. This

2084
01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:44,920
Speaker 1: is a great show. I'm a giant movie buff and

2085
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:48,360
Speaker 1: you know I love these sort of very completest, very

2086
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 1: research heavy episodes that you guys do.

2087
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:52,360
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, and thank you so much for

2088
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:54,880
Speaker 3: being here. This was really fascinating and now you've got

2089
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:58,160
Speaker 3: me thinking about who else could you cover in another

2090
01:35:58,360 --> 01:35:59,960
Speaker 3: wonderful season of the Secret World.

2091
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:01,320
Speaker 1: Send me ideas.

2092
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:02,800
Speaker 3: I feel like you've got one and you'll have to

2093
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 3: tell us off and we'll know and then you'll all

2094
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:07,080
Speaker 3: have to wait until season two comes out.

2095
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:08,680
Speaker 1: I got a few ideas.

2096
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 3: All right, thank you so much.

2097
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:11,719
Speaker 1: Guys.

2098
01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:13,760
Speaker 4: If you're enjoying this podcast, there's a few easy ways

2099
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:16,400
Speaker 4: to support us. Lizzie, can you tell the fine folks

2100
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:19,439
Speaker 4: at home how they can keep this chocolate factory churning?

2101
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,400
Speaker 3: I sure can. You can tell a friend or family

2102
01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:24,840
Speaker 3: member about this show. You can leave us a rating

2103
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 3: review on whatever Podcascher you are listening to this on.

2104
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 3: You can give us a shout out, or you can

2105
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:31,599
Speaker 3: follow us on social media at what Went Wrong Pod

2106
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:35,759
Speaker 3: on Instagram and TikTok. You can subscribe to this show

2107
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:38,080
Speaker 3: in both Spotify and Apple, and if you do that,

2108
01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:41,799
Speaker 3: you will get one bonus episode every month, at least one. Honestly,

2109
01:36:42,160 --> 01:36:44,320
Speaker 3: it's probably more than that. At this point, we did

2110
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 3: a whole bunch for the Oscars and we really enjoyed it.

2111
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 3: So we're going to keep doing a minimum of one

2112
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 3: bonus episode every month behind the paywall for you subscribers.

2113
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:53,479
Speaker 3: And then if you want to go the extra mile,

2114
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:57,280
Speaker 3: you can subscribe to us on Patreon and there you

2115
01:36:57,360 --> 01:37:02,200
Speaker 3: get everything I just mentioned, plus you get access to newsletters, polls,

2116
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:05,799
Speaker 3: extra credit, the fan community, and an ad free feed

2117
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 3: of the show. And if you want to really turn

2118
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:12,200
Speaker 3: it up to eleven, you can, for fifty dollars a

2119
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 3: month become a full stop patron and get a shout

2120
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:17,800
Speaker 3: out at the end of every episode, just like one

2121
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:18,200
Speaker 3: of these.

2122
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:20,519
Speaker 4: So, since we've done a lot of songs recently and

2123
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:23,320
Speaker 4: impressions and David opened this episode with an amazing oopa

2124
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:25,200
Speaker 4: lupa song, I thought we could mix things up a

2125
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 4: little bit. I'll read everybody's names and then I have

2126
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:32,599
Speaker 4: selected candy from Willy Wonka's Factory for the heroes of

2127
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:34,840
Speaker 4: every one of the movies that we've covered thus far

2128
01:37:34,960 --> 01:37:37,880
Speaker 4: this year. All right, so the full stop shout outs

2129
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 4: go too. Adrian Pang, Korea, Angeline, Renee Cook, Beatrix Earhart,

2130
01:37:43,080 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 4: Ben Hindelman, Blaze, Ambrose, Brian Donahue, Britney Morris, Brooke, Cameron Smith,

2131
01:37:49,560 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 4: c Grace, b Chris lel, Chris Zaka, David Frisco, Lante,

2132
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:59,920
Speaker 4: Darren and Dale, Conkling, Don Scheibel, m Zodia, Evan Downe, Felicia,

2133
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 4: Film It Yourself, Frankenstein, Galen and Miguel, The Broken Glass Kids,

2134
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,240
Speaker 4: The cast and Crew of win a Trip to Browntown.

2135
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:14,040
Speaker 4: Grace Potter Half Greyhound, James McAvoy, Jason Frankel, j J Rapido,

2136
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:20,400
Speaker 4: Joy Hillpiper, Jose Emilano, Salto del Giorgio, Karina Canaba, Kate Elrington,

2137
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:25,479
Speaker 4: Kathleen Olsen, Amy Olgishlager, McCoy, Lazy, Freddie, Lenna l j

2138
01:38:26,080 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 4: Lydia Howes, Mark, Bertha, Mary Posis, Humans, Matthew Jacobson, Michael McGrath,

2139
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:38,839
Speaker 4: Nate the Knife, Rosemary Southward, Rural Juror, Sadie Just Sadie Scott,

2140
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 4: O'sheita Somnchinani, Steve Winterbauer, Suzanne Johnson, the Provost Family where

2141
01:38:45,400 --> 01:38:50,000
Speaker 4: the o's sound like oh's, and Tom Kristen okay. So

2142
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:53,400
Speaker 4: here are the candy shoutouts for Lawrence of Arabia as

2143
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 4: he crosses the food, ice cream that never melts, for

2144
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:59,559
Speaker 4: Sarah in the Labyrinth, Fizzy lifting drinks so she can

2145
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:03,479
Speaker 4: always her way out for Derek and American History, X

2146
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:06,840
Speaker 4: stick jaw for talkative parents so he'll just shut up

2147
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:10,439
Speaker 4: a bit. For a Cura Curasawa's crew, hot ice creams

2148
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:13,439
Speaker 4: for cold days. When shooting the Seven Samurai Climax in

2149
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:17,719
Speaker 4: the rain for Forrest Gump, everlasting gobstoppers for his runs

2150
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 4: across the country. For Rick and Casablanca, square suites that

2151
01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:23,719
Speaker 4: look round because it is possible to be two things

2152
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:27,320
Speaker 4: at once. For Sean Connery in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen,

2153
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:29,599
Speaker 4: magic hand fudge. When you hold it in your hand,

2154
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 4: you taste it in your mouth, and this way his

2155
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:34,360
Speaker 4: hands will be occupied. For Bob Evans and the Cotton Club,

2156
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,719
Speaker 4: a machine with white powder sprang out of it because

2157
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:39,720
Speaker 4: you get it. For Miles and Spider Man into the

2158
01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 4: Spider Verse, rainbow drops. Suck them and you can spit

2159
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 4: in six different colors, one for each Spider person. For

2160
01:39:46,360 --> 01:39:49,519
Speaker 4: Seth Rogen in the Interview, exploding sweets for your enemies,

2161
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:52,519
Speaker 4: for the cast of Game of Thrones, cavity filling caramels

2162
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 4: so you don't die of dental disease in Westros. For

2163
01:39:55,439 --> 01:39:59,040
Speaker 4: Florence Pew and don't worry, Darling, lickable wallpaper. And for

2164
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:02,519
Speaker 4: Leonard Shelby, chewing gum that never loses its flavor you

2165
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:08,000
Speaker 4: endlessly searching gumshoe. Detective Lindzy, can you tell the folks

2166
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 4: at home what we have coming next week?

2167
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:15,120
Speaker 3: Well, we have a really uplifting, happy movie that we're

2168
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:17,719
Speaker 3: covering next week, very much in the same genre as

2169
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 3: today's children's movie, and that is, of course Martin Scorsese's

2170
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:23,960
Speaker 3: Taxi Driver. But this is very important. We are going

2171
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:27,200
Speaker 3: to have a bonus episode airing on Friday that will

2172
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 3: be covering the stocking case that happened to Jodie Foster

2173
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 3: kind of as a result of Taxi Driver. It will

2174
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:36,320
Speaker 3: be an important precursor to listen to that before you

2175
01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 3: listen to the main episode. So come back to this

2176
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,080
Speaker 3: feed on Friday for a special out of frame episode

2177
01:40:41,080 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 3: on that case, featuring Chris. Do you want to reveal

2178
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:44,880
Speaker 3: our guests.

2179
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:50,880
Speaker 4: The hosts of the incredibly popular Red Handed podcast who

2180
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 4: joined us all the way from across the Pond and

2181
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 4: shed a lot of light into this unusual situation.

2182
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:01,439
Speaker 3: That's right, we have Hannah Maguire and Sarutibala on the show.

2183
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 3: They were wonderful, So please come back on Friday. Listen

2184
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 3: to that out of frame episode first, and then on

2185
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:09,840
Speaker 3: Monday we will be back with Taxi Driver. See you

2186
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:11,440
Speaker 3: then bybye.

2187
01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 1: To support what Went Wrong and gain access to bonus episodes,

2188
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:19,040
Speaker 1: subscribe on Patreon, Apple or Spotify for five dollars a month.

2189
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:22,519
Speaker 1: Patreon subscriptions also come with an ad free RSS feed.

2190
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,280
Speaker 1: You can also visit our website What Went wrongpod dot

2191
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:27,719
Speaker 1: com for more info. What Went Wrong is a sad

2192
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 1: boom podcast presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. Post

2193
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:35,120
Speaker 1: production in music by David Bowman. This episode was researched

2194
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:37,680
Speaker 1: by Laura Woods and edited by Karen Kruppsaw.