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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern.

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Speaker 2: On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: Business App.

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Speaker 1: Or listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 3: The program today brought to you by the word uninvestable

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Speaker 3: after Commerce Secretary Gina Ramanda, who as you know, is

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Speaker 3: in China right now, told reporters she's hearing from US

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Speaker 3: businesses that China is indeed becoming uninvestiable. As I read

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Speaker 3: on the terminal the quote from the secretary, there are

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Speaker 3: traditional concerns that they've become accustomer dealing with, and then

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Speaker 3: there's a whole new set of concerns, the sum total

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Speaker 3: of which is making China feel too risky for them

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Speaker 3: to invest. Though these remarks don't sound exactly like what

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Speaker 3: she was saying to Chinese officials earlier in the day

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Speaker 3: in Beijing, when it sounded like we were getting along,

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Speaker 3: Because if.

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Speaker 1: Baya had asked me to come here to conveying message

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Speaker 1: that we.

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Speaker 4: Do now seek to decouple.

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Speaker 1: We seek to maintain our.

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Speaker 5: Seven hundred billion dollar commercial relationships wape China.

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Speaker 3: Does that mean diversifying is over? It was decoupling, then

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Speaker 3: it was diverse. Right now we're maintaining. I think I

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Speaker 3: missed one in there too. I'm sure Nick Watams remembers it.

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Speaker 4: The risking.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Nick Bottoms. I think they heard you say that.

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Speaker 3: So is decoupling and de risking the diversifying. Are we

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Speaker 3: really replacing that with that we're maintaining because sounds like

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Speaker 3: nothing's changing.

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Speaker 6: Well, So the big issue that Gino Raimundo and other

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Speaker 6: US officials have said is listen, there are all sorts

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Speaker 6: of areas where we can do business with China if

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Speaker 6: you look at you know, US companies like restaurants. She

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Speaker 6: even mentioned beauty care products, lotion, suntand loation, stuff like that.

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Speaker 6: There's all sorts of stuff that we can do and

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Speaker 6: places where US companies can invest. Where she's saying the

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Speaker 6: US does not want want to work with China is

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Speaker 6: areas that threaten US national security. So the most sensitive

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Speaker 6: technology having to do with microchips, quantum computing AI, they

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Speaker 6: don't want US technology basically funding the growth of Chinese

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Speaker 6: companies that would then turn around and undermine those US companies.

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Speaker 3: So all the stuff China really wants. But there's a

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Speaker 3: path forward here somehow and we can compartmentalize all of this.

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Speaker 3: Is that the message we're getting when you think about

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Speaker 3: all of the various comments from the president on down.

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Speaker 6: That is the US message. The problem is that it

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Speaker 6: gets to this fundamental difference between how the US and

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Speaker 6: China view the relationship. The US says, Okay, there are

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Speaker 6: certain places that we're going to ring fence, but then

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Speaker 6: we want to get along with you on all this

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Speaker 6: other stuff climate change, combating fentanyl crisis, more trade, more growth.

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Speaker 6: China says, no, no, no, you can't do that. You

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Speaker 6: can't say like, this part's okay, but then you're going

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Speaker 6: to turn around and smack us on the wrist with

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Speaker 6: a ruler in this other area or do something even

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Speaker 6: more severe. If it's got to be the whole package,

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Speaker 6: either either you get all of it or you get

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Speaker 6: none of it. And that's where we're really seeing Beijing

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Speaker 6: and Washington. Butt heeads right now.

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Speaker 3: So have any of these trips from blinkn to yellin

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Speaker 3: to now Romando actually move a needle on this? Are

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Speaker 3: we understanding each other better or we just kind of

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Speaker 3: prolonging a really difficult conversation down the road.

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Speaker 6: I think what you're seeing here is a desperate attempt

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Speaker 6: to make it look like there is actually progress. But

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Speaker 6: what often happens in these meetings is both sides are

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Speaker 6: essentially reading talking points. And this is something that has

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Speaker 6: bedeviled the relationship for so long because so many informal

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Speaker 6: contacts have basically been severed. You have these meetings where

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Speaker 6: they go over and there's this big expectation of progress,

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Speaker 6: and then it's basically like, well, we delivered our message.

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Speaker 6: They delivered their message. I mean, Blinken came back and

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Speaker 6: said like, well, we tentatively agreed that maybe we'll do

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Speaker 6: a fentanyl working group at some point in the future,

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Speaker 6: and it was sort of like, eh, okay, nothing really

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Speaker 6: happened out of that. And so now Raimondo's there and

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Speaker 6: she's delivering the tough message on Intel. Micron Boeing, you know,

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Speaker 6: wants to resume sales of Boeing airplanes to China, and

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Speaker 6: I mean, we'll see tomorrow. Tomorrow's her last day, which

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Speaker 6: is there whether she comes back with any major agreements,

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Speaker 6: But so far, the signals appear to me.

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Speaker 3: No spending time with Nick Wadams before we bring in

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Speaker 3: the ambassador, we're going to talk with Max Bacchus In

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Speaker 3: just a moment, we understand that Vladimir Putin's making a

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Speaker 3: trip to China. It's an interesting one on the heels

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Speaker 3: of this parade of administration officials here from the US

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Speaker 3: his first foreign trips. It's a warrant for his arrest

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Speaker 3: on alleged war crimes was issued by the International Criminal Court.

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Speaker 3: What's the message here from Beijing?

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean, it's always tempting to get into the

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Speaker 6: timing of these things. Raimondo is in China as we speak,

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Speaker 6: and then we get this announcement that Putin is going

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Speaker 6: to Beijing. It's hard not to see that as a

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Speaker 6: slap in the face. Whether the timing is coincidental or not.

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Speaker 6: I mean, there's that's a rabbit hole. Don't need to

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Speaker 6: necessarily go down there. The point is that you have

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Speaker 6: an accused war criminal, the great greatest adversary that the

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Speaker 6: United States has at the moment, going to China, where

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Speaker 6: he will be welcomed with open arms. And while the

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Speaker 6: US argues that China has not done all it could

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Speaker 6: to help Russia prosecute the war in Ukraine, it's certainly

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Speaker 6: not turned away from Vladimir Putin, and it sends a

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Speaker 6: very strong signal about what China's priorities are. Okay, Raimondo,

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Speaker 6: blink and all, John Kerry, you guys want to come,

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Speaker 6: we'll talk. We can make nice to some degree at

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Speaker 6: least in the messaging, but we are still firmly aligned

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Speaker 6: with Vladimir Putin. That sends a very strong signal.

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Speaker 3: No doubt, do they get the treatment over there, they're

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Speaker 3: rolling out the car for US officials the way you

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Speaker 3: will know.

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Speaker 6: I thought you were talking about Putin. People will certainly

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Speaker 6: get the treatment. Donald Trump got the treatment. I was

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Speaker 6: there for that when he visited Beijing, and he, I

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Speaker 6: mean the city was shut down for him. He got

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Speaker 6: the literal red carpet basically everywhere he went.

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Speaker 3: Now, granted, Joe Biden's not going here, but what should

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Speaker 3: a cabinet official receive?

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Speaker 6: Well, it was interesting, I mean, Raymondo got about what

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Speaker 6: you would expect. She got a meeting with the a

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Speaker 6: meet and greet with the premiere. She got a more

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Speaker 6: substantive meeting with the Vice premier. But interestingly she did

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Speaker 6: not get a meeting with President Chijinping. Blincoln did get

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Speaker 6: a meeting. Raymondo is slightly lower level, so it's not

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Speaker 6: like she's being mistreated or frozen out. Yeah, but you're

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Speaker 6: certainly not seeing the sort of fanfare that you will

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Speaker 6: see for Vlatimir Putin.

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Speaker 3: I always love to spending time with Nick Wadams. Thanks Nick,

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Speaker 3: great to have you a pleasure back here, as always

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Speaker 3: Bloomberg national security reporter with an eye on Beijing. Let's

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Speaker 3: bring in the former ambassador Max bocchus Is with us,

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Speaker 3: of course, former US Senator from Montana. Mister ambassador, welcome

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Speaker 3: back to Bloomberg. It's great to have you. What's your

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Speaker 3: thought on this headline. We'll just start right here with

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Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin announcing that he's going to be making a

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Speaker 3: trip to China on the heels of all of these

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Speaker 3: Biden administration officials. What's that message supposed to be for

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden?

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Speaker 4: Well, first, thank you, Joe. I think that's a pretty

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Speaker 4: big deal. It's China is showing to the world that

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Speaker 4: is aligned with another authoritarian government, in this case Russia,

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Speaker 4: and I think China intentionally wants to convey that message,

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Speaker 4: especially to the developing countries, the South countries, and to

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Speaker 4: help guide them into the she orbit in juxtaposition to

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Speaker 4: the United States and Western countries who are more aligned

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Speaker 4: with NATO, etc. It's a big deal, and I think

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Speaker 4: a sidebar has been explained. It's a bit of a

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Speaker 4: slap in the face of the US while Vermando is

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Speaker 4: still in China. But this is a big moment. China

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Speaker 4: and Russia need each other. China exports a lot of

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Speaker 4: oil to them. Excuse me, Russia exports a lot of

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Speaker 4: oil to China since well export has been shut off

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Speaker 4: in Europe. In addition to that of China exports a

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Speaker 4: lot of machinery, a lot of infrastructure, a lot of

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Speaker 4: goods to Russia which Russia can use in the word

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Speaker 4: against Ukraine. This, I think this is a pretty big deal.

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Speaker 4: It portends to me it's a long continuing struggle basically

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Speaker 4: between the United States and it's our western allies on

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Speaker 4: one hand and China and it's written the other.

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Speaker 3: Well, so the word today, ambassador from the Commerce Secretary

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Speaker 3: who's in China is that she's hearing from American businesses

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Speaker 3: that China is becoming uninvestable, that it's becoming too risky

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Speaker 3: of an investment. You do wonder if she says we're

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Speaker 3: not decoupling. We're maintaining, but it feels like we might

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Speaker 3: be decoupling.

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Speaker 1: How do you see it?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that what you're implying is accurate. If

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Speaker 4: it's not decoupling, some say's deep risking maintaining, it's all words,

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Speaker 4: nearly what amounts is the deeds? What are the acts

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Speaker 4: and actions? But both sides are negative towards each other.

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Speaker 4: For example, the President Biden just announced his executive order

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Speaker 4: limiting US companies investors in China. That's a negative action.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's just we keep adding on more sanctions,

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Speaker 4: more export controls, et cetera. And it's so the words

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Speaker 4: of the talks are they're nice, nice sounding reporters like

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Speaker 4: to write about it and so forth. But go accounts

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Speaker 4: is the actions, the deeds, and so far they're not

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Speaker 4: very positive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the jargon has been kind of entertaining, I have

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Speaker 3: to admit, but uninvestable is really the word that we

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Speaker 3: I feel like should be focusing on here, Max Bochus,

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Speaker 3: that sounded like an honest moment from the Commerce secretary

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Speaker 3: talking to those reporters on the train. How do you

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Speaker 3: feel about that?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a bit of exaggeration. No, but

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Speaker 4: it's true there are really Oh yeah, I think US

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Speaker 4: businesses are taking a second look at China. That's they're

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Speaker 4: building in more risk into investments into China. But they're

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Speaker 4: still looking at China positively, positive, if at all possible,

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Speaker 4: because it's such a large market. It's huge. I mean,

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Speaker 4: people in America, we tend to forget the scale of

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Speaker 4: China is so large. It's incredibly large, much larger than

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Speaker 4: the United States population four times out of the US.

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Speaker 4: And so I think and a lot of businesses know

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Speaker 4: that if they're smart, if they maintain their business relationships

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Speaker 4: in China, they could probably work out a deal. Now,

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Speaker 4: it's true that it's the climate in China makes it

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Speaker 4: more difficult for US, but I would not say uninvestable.

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Speaker 4: I would just say it's the risks are greater.

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Speaker 3: Well, you understand better than most state craft on the

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Speaker 3: international stage. Is that exaggeration a necessary part of whatever

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Speaker 3: we call this negotiation?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think she said that as a sobering message

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Speaker 4: to the Chinese. So they get it. Hey, you Chinese,

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Speaker 4: you know you want American investments, you want a world

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Speaker 4: investment to grow, and you're taking actions they're causing China

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Speaker 4: to be uninvestable, think that that was the main message.

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Speaker 4: It's important to remember that some of those actions China's

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Speaker 4: taken a reaction to US actions that are adverse to

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Speaker 4: China export controls, sanctions, et cetera. And so they're just

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Speaker 4: there's a little tit for tat here and so and

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Speaker 4: the hawks in China are very much pushing a chija

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Speaker 4: in pain to take certain actions to show that we're

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Speaker 4: not going to just lay up, lay down and turn

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Speaker 4: the other chief the United States. It's happens in life.

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Speaker 4: It's it's human nature. Whenever one side criticized it takes

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Speaker 4: a negative action or the other, well, the others said, okay,

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Speaker 4: we've got to react word to do the same thing too.

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Speaker 4: And that's the part of what's happening.

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Speaker 3: At what point does greed kick in? Though, I mean,

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Speaker 3: with so much money to be made, mister ambassador, we've

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Speaker 3: seen the losses in just in US investments in Chinese

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Speaker 3: stocks alone, never mind going beyond the market here, when

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Speaker 3: you consider fixed income, when you consider expansion, look at

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Speaker 3: what Apple is doing pulling back from you know, all

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Speaker 3: of its partnerships in China or trying to moving things

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Speaker 3: to India at what point does China say, wait a minute,

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Speaker 3: we're losing a lot of money here, guys, we need

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Speaker 3: to take another look at this.

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Speaker 4: Well, clearly this you put the finger on the problem

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Speaker 4: that China's facing. The one hand, it's ideology. President. She

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Speaker 4: is much more of a maoist. He's much more of

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Speaker 4: a sort of a socialist and wants to control the

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Speaker 4: economy and wants them to grow in his way, which

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Speaker 4: is more industrialization, more exports, rather than spend time on

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Speaker 4: consumer goods. I mean, that's his ideology. On the other hand,

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Speaker 4: he knows that if he's going to maintain the Fostian bargain,

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Speaker 4: that is, to maintain the support of the people, he's

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Speaker 4: got to keep the people happy. The best way to

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Speaker 4: keep the people happy is to boost their incomes. And

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Speaker 4: he's cotton buying, very much cotton to buying between ideology

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Speaker 4: and taking economic actions which will help his country grow,

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Speaker 4: at least grow more in line with them with capitalists

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Speaker 4: countries like ours.

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Speaker 3: See this is why you talk to a four were

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Speaker 3: ambassador for an explanation like that, because so much of

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Speaker 3: this is cultural. Ambassador, I just wonder what the aim

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Speaker 3: is for the administration by which metric should we be

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Speaker 3: judging this as we go forward here in the next year.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think the administration is in a bit of

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Speaker 4: a box because China policy is driven basically by domestic politics.

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Speaker 4: Both members both houses, House and Senate, both parties are

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Speaker 4: very anti China right now, and so the President of

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Speaker 4: Congress I find it difficult to take positive, constructive actions

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Speaker 4: towards China. I think today, if any member of the

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Speaker 4: US Senate were to stand up and to say something

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Speaker 4: gets struck about China, he or she'd have his head

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Speaker 4: taken off. It just it's just a toxic in America today,

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Speaker 4: So it's hard for president to take positive actions. And

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Speaker 4: the same is true in China. The Hawks are very

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Speaker 4: strong in China today, very strong. So my judgment is

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Speaker 4: that it's basically the status quo. I come up with

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Speaker 4: something into the lot. It's a little strange, but I

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Speaker 4: think as a construct that will help the relationship, and

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Speaker 4: that is this is an arranged marriage. It's not a

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Speaker 4: marriage based off we don't love each other US and China,

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Speaker 4: but it's arranged by the geopolitical forces economic in the world,

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Speaker 4: US largest country, China the second largest country. We're here,

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Speaker 4: not going anywhere we're not going anywhere, so we have.

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Speaker 3: To find an ambassador. I think we need a therapist.

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Speaker 3: We need a marriage therapist, although that was his old job.

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Speaker 3: Max Bak is the former ambassador to China. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: I always wish we had the hour to do that.

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Speaker 3: Many thanks to the ambassador and Nick Watdams. I'm Joe,

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Speaker 3: Matthew and Washington the panels up next.

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Speaker 4: This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

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Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

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Speaker 1: tune in alf Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

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Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 3: The Commerce Secretary Gina Romando, making her way across China

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Speaker 3: and speaking to reporters on the train from earlier today

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Speaker 3: the train from Beijing to Shanghai, talked about she's hearing

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Speaker 3: a lot from US businesses China uninvestable because it's too risky.

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Speaker 3: This after she told officials earlier in Beijing that we

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Speaker 3: were here not to decouple, but to maintain. And it's

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Speaker 3: a big word. Suit I realize. Let's assemble our panel here.

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Speaker 3: Rick Davis is with US Bloomberg Politics contributor Republican strategist,

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Speaker 3: along with Matt Bennett, Third Way Executive vice president today

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Speaker 3: former Deputy Assistant to the President for Inner Governmental Affairs

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Speaker 3: in the Clinton administration. Rick and Matt. Welcome, is great

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Speaker 3: to have you. We've talked this up and down Rick

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Speaker 3: over the course of several visits. Now it's Gina Romando,

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Speaker 3: the Commerce Secretary, and I feel like I might be

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Speaker 3: getting more confused with each one.

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Speaker 1: What is the message?

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Speaker 7: You know, Look, I think the messages tried to initiate

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Speaker 7: some kind of engagement. I think, you know, Nick Wadams

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Speaker 7: talked about climb a, fentanyl, agriculture, other things that we

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Speaker 7: have in common that aren't really in dispute, things that

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Speaker 7: we need to find ways of working together on and

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Speaker 7: manage the areas that are in dispute, and a laundry

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Speaker 7: list of those covered under national security, trade and economics

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Speaker 7: and so, you know. The parade of administration officials comes

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Speaker 7: after the first two years of the Bid administration, which

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Speaker 7: was intensely negative in their public acrimony, both from the

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Speaker 7: administration side towards China. And significantly different points of view

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Speaker 7: coming from China about how negative they were related to

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Speaker 7: its relationship with the US. So look, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 7: is this repairing any of the damage. As others have

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Speaker 7: pointed out, we're not seeing a lot of progress on

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Speaker 7: these issues, but at least we're having a conversation.

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Speaker 4: We'll see.

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Speaker 7: I think the troubling area is still around national security.

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Speaker 7: You don't see the engagement on a military to military

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Speaker 7: lefele that we used to have. I doubt if we're

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Speaker 7: still getting calls returned from you know, the chief of

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Speaker 7: the army in China, like we had a situation earlier

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Speaker 7: in the year. But you know, I think that we're

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Speaker 7: trying to put it on more constructive grounds rather than

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Speaker 7: conflicting grounds.

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Speaker 3: Well, Rick just laid out a lot for us, Matt Bennett,

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Speaker 3: I'm curious to unpack a couple of these, beginning with

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Speaker 3: our business relationship, because we have had this kind of

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Speaker 3: evolution of messaging from decoupling to diversifying now maintaining. I

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Speaker 3: know there was another one in there, but it seems

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Speaker 3: like the real message from Gina Romando is this increasing

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Speaker 3: level of risk that she's hearing about from US business

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Speaker 3: is Max Bachus just told us he thinks that's an exaggeration.

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Speaker 3: Is this really just about keeping the conversation going, or

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Speaker 3: is this administration looking to move the needle.

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Speaker 8: Mat Well, I think they would like to move the needle.

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Speaker 8: Nobody thinks it's the relationships in a great place right now.

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Speaker 8: But I think we have to just acknowledge that it's

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Speaker 8: really hard because there are some enormous differences between us.

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Speaker 8: I mean, the Chinese have a million people living in

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Speaker 8: concentration camps or have disappeared into their prisons. The Wigers

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Speaker 8: are being persecuted. They are threatening Taiwan, which produces something

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Speaker 8: like eighty seven percent of all the high level chips

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Speaker 8: in the world. They are causing all kinds of problems

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Speaker 8: for us in all sorts of neighborhoods Africa, South America,

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Speaker 8: where they are trying to corner the market on the

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Speaker 8: kinds of raw materials that we desperately need to power

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Speaker 8: our economy and to take us into a cleaner energy future.

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Speaker 8: And they've not been very helpful with the war in

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Speaker 8: Ukraine and in cracking down on the Russian so we

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Speaker 8: have and that's just to name a few. So the

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Speaker 8: disagreements that remain China are enormously serious, and so I

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Speaker 8: think Rimando is just reflecting the fact that we've got

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Speaker 8: a long way to go if we're going to return

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Speaker 8: to some kind of more friendly set of relationships.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's quite a picture you paint. And Rick Matt

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Speaker 3: points us to a real source spot there on the map,

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Speaker 3: which is called Taiwan. We're talking about withholding ai technology

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Speaker 3: and these graphics cards that are made by Nvidia, keeping

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Speaker 3: them out of the hands of the Chinese, so they

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Speaker 3: are not used to military benefits, so they are not

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Speaker 3: getting the same level of technology that we have when

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Speaker 3: it comes to artificial intelligence. But those cards, those chips

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Speaker 3: are made in Taiwan, Rick, and we know that China

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Speaker 3: could form a Block eight around the island any time

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Speaker 3: at once. It does make you wonder if this conversation

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Speaker 3: is pointing in the right direction or if the Hawks

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Speaker 3: are onto something here and we're going to be fighting

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Speaker 3: over Taiwan in the near future.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Look, I mean, the Biden administration is as hawkish as

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Speaker 7: any Republican administration that I can remember when it comes

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Speaker 7: to China, and it's all rooted in in the kind

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Speaker 7: of expansionist, uh national security policy they've had as as

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Speaker 7: as Max was just talking about, you know, he's got

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Speaker 7: a little more engagement focus UH coming to China. But

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Speaker 7: everything I've read from this administration, the meetings I've been in, UH,

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Speaker 7: the military is out there actively telling people on Wall Street,

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Speaker 7: you know that when you invest in China, you're investing

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Speaker 7: in the China military industrial complex.

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Speaker 4: You know that our UH.

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Speaker 7: Trade relationship UH ultimately funnels to the Red Army, and

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Speaker 7: and and that the Red Army's ambitions to take over

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Speaker 7: Taiwan are about timetable, not if they would try to

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Speaker 7: take over Taiwan militarily. So when when when you're sitting

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Speaker 7: in Wall Street or in an investment UH committee meeting

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Speaker 7: and you're you're looking at the riskless So stated with that,

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Speaker 7: it's not surprising that you pick up the phone and

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Speaker 7: tell Jine Ramendo on our way to China, Hey, it's uninvestable.

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Speaker 7: We can't put money to work there. If those are

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Speaker 7: the consequences of our investment.

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Speaker 3: There was kind of an irony as well. The technology

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Speaker 3: we want to keep from them is actually you know,

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Speaker 3: sourced out of Taiwan. But Matt, the idea now that

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Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin gets the big invites of Beijing. Is that

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Speaker 3: an insult, as was suggested earlier this hour, or just

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Speaker 3: a middle finger to the Biden White House.

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Speaker 8: I mean, I guess those are, you know, roughly the

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Speaker 8: same thing. It was definitely a message to the Biden

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Speaker 8: White House, and not a great one. I mean, consider

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Speaker 8: that China has enormous influence, with a very substantial percentage

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Speaker 8: of all the nations on Earth. I mean, China owns

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Speaker 8: the port of Piraeus in Greece. That means they have

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Speaker 8: a lot of control over how Greece votes in the EU,

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Speaker 8: which operates by unanimous consent. They've got all kinds of

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Speaker 8: operations in South America, so you know, what used to

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Speaker 8: be an American zone of influence is no longer exclusive

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Speaker 8: to us, and they're all over Africa. So I think

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Speaker 8: we just have to be very clear that we are

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Speaker 8: dealing with a global power, and global powers often do

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Speaker 8: things that their counterparts don't like, and this is certainly

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Speaker 8: one of them.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's true. How should the administration react to this, Rick,

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Speaker 3: You've got Gina Romando in the country when Beijing announces that,

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Speaker 3: guess what, Vladimir's.

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Speaker 4: On the way. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Look, I mean I think that there's no dispute that

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Speaker 7: Vladimir Putin and g are bros.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 7: I mean, they hang out together, they celebrate each other's birthdays.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's like last big trip that.

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Speaker 7: Putin took out of the country before he became a criminal,

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Speaker 7: international criminal, was to the Bay you know, Olympics. I mean, like,

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Speaker 7: we can't underestimate what's going on between those two leaders

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Speaker 7: and the impact that it's having in places all around

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Speaker 7: the world, including obviously the conflict in Ukraine. So so

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Speaker 7: you know, I mean, if if Vladimir Putin's sitting around

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Speaker 7: and he's getting upset that it looks like, you know,

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Speaker 7: she's repairing some of its relationship with the United States,

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Speaker 7: you know, he's gonna call him up and say, hey,

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Speaker 7: I'm coming over there on Thursday. I mean, like, you know,

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Speaker 7: he's not even going to like make a request. He's

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Speaker 7: just going to tell him I'm showing up because it's

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Speaker 7: his public relations. He hasn't shown up at any of

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Speaker 7: these international events. He hasn't done anything in a in

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Speaker 7: a multilateral situation.

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00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 4: You know.

436
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 7: The only conversations he has or visits he's made is

437
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 7: to BAYLORUS, which is you know, a satellite state of Putin's,

438
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 7: you know, Russian Empire, and so like, he's probably feeling

439
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 7: pretty isolated and embarrassed that his one buddy outside of

440
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 7: you know, Baylor, Russ is China and they're making good

441
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 7: with the US. So look, I think she should be

442
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 7: happy that somehow he feels so intense on pushing back

443
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 7: on her trip that he's got to get out of

444
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 7: his bunker and go visit Beijing.

445
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 3: Unbelievable stuff. Remember the friendship without limits, I believe, is

446
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 3: what they called it when he made the Olympic visit.

447
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 3: It's like a lifetime ago, but it.

448
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: Really is not.

449
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 3: Great analysis from Rick Davis and Matt Bennett. We've got

450
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: breaking news from the campaign trail here. I know you've

451
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: been wondering a lot. You've been asking a lot about

452
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: the campaign of Francis Suarez. All right, you haven't been asking,

453
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 3: but the Miami mayor has suspended his presidential campaign according

454
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 3: to reports. Remember, he was not able to make it

455
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 3: on the debate stage. He didn't have a pulling or

456
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 3: the fundraising to make that happen.

457
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: All right.

458
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,719
Speaker 3: Another one of the Tennessee three is Silence. We're going

459
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: to go there next to Nashville with our panel.

460
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us

461
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern.

462
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: On Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg

463
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: Business App, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcast.

464
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 3: History repeats itself in Nashville Recent history as Republican state

465
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 3: lawmakers vote to silence one of the Tennessee Three again,

466
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 3: recalling the three Democratic lawmakers who were threatened with expulsion

467
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 3: over their role in a pro gun control protest inside

468
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 3: the Tennessee Capitol. Remember this a few months ago two

469
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 3: of them, including Justin Jones, were expelled, and there he

470
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 3: was again yesterday, Silence prohibited from speaking or debating over

471
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 3: bills for the day during a special session called to

472
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 3: react to a deadly shooting at a Christian elementary school

473
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 3: there in March. Was after Jones violated new rules that

474
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: were enacted to punish They were designed to punish disruptive

475
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 3: members and protesters in the chamber once again made a rack.

476
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, sounding a.

477
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: Lot like they did earlier in the year the first

478
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 3: time we did this, and Representative Jones filmed a video

479
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 3: on his phone after walking outside the chamber the stairs

480
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: were lined with state troopers, so.

481
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 5: We just left the House chamber. The Democrats walked out

482
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 5: of the chamber in protest after Cameron Sexton decided to

483
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 5: abuse his gavel and call for a boat so that

484
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 5: I could not even speak for the rest of session.

485
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 5: He said it was because of speaking off topic. And

486
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 5: so what we're seeing is this misapplication, this abuse rules.

487
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 5: I'm under leadership Speaker Cameron Sexton.

488
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: Is followed by again a whole walkout by Democrats. Let's

489
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 3: reassembled a panel for their take on this. Bloomberg Politics

490
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: contributed Rick Davis is with us Matt Bennett as well

491
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: from Third Way. Matt, your thought on this. Back in

492
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: the spring when this happened the first time with the

493
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 3: so called Tennessee three people including myself said, my goodness,

494
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 3: they're making stars out of these guys. What exactly is

495
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: the strategy here? I remember bumping into them at the

496
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 3: White House correspondence dinner and here we go again. What

497
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: does action like this tell you about what's happening inside

498
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: the capitol in Tennessee?

499
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 8: It tells me that the Testi Republicans apparently are gluttons

500
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 8: for punishment. I mean, how they could not see that

501
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 8: what they did the first time was bad for them, idiotic,

502
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 8: terrible for their state. I mean, both of the representatives

503
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 8: were quite rightly returned by their voters and by their

504
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 8: constituents to the legislature immediately detail And now, yes, now

505
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 8: they've expelled him for making a speech. He was not

506
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 8: holding a sign, he was not protesting, he was not

507
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 8: banging on the desk. He was making a speech as

508
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 8: members of the legislature are supposed to do. But the

509
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 8: speaker decided that he didn't like what he was saying,

510
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 8: and so they barred him from the chamber, and you

511
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 8: heard the reaction. I mean, fundamentally, the problem is that

512
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 8: Republicans in that state are massively out of touch on

513
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 8: some very important issues, not least gun violence. I mean,

514
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 8: there was this horrific shooting of children at a school

515
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 8: just miles from the capitol, and they have done nothing

516
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 8: except for propose arming more people in schools, and that

517
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 8: is not going to go over with the people who

518
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 8: populate a good percentage of that state. It may not

519
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 8: be a majority, but it's a lot, and I think

520
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 8: they're getting this very wrong.

521
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 3: Rick Jones was criticizing this legislation that would allow more

522
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: law enforcement officers in schools, and he was talking around

523
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: the matter. You might hear in a debate the speaker

524
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: Cameron Sexton, who you heard him mention, warned Jones not

525
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: to stray off topic. Is this a matter of following

526
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: the rules or is this punitive beyond measure?

527
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 7: Well, I think all of it comes during this special

528
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 7: session that was called by Governor Bill Lee because of

529
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 7: the you know, Christian elementary school shooting, and so the

530
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 7: hope was that they would actually pull together and do

531
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 7: something that would help the community. But after the last

532
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 7: go round that Matt accurately described in every way, Uh,

533
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 7: they pass these rules to sort of get control of

534
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 7: the floor.

535
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 8: Uh.

536
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 7: And all they did is find new ways of of

537
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 7: of elevating the minority in the legislature, Right, I mean, like,

538
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 7: if you just let them talk and then take a vote,

539
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 7: you've got the majority, it kind of just passes. But

540
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 7: if you do these kinds of shenanigans where you say, oh,

541
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 7: I'm going to silence you, well, you know, part of

542
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 7: having a legislature is so that you won't be silenced.

543
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 7: They represent the will of the people and they're there

544
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 7: for a reason. So I mean it just it just

545
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 7: goes beyond any rational understanding of how a democracy works

546
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 7: to have these kinds of rules in place and then

547
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 7: actually use them, I mean, actually say we're going to

548
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 7: silence you for the day. And so what else is

549
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 7: he going to do but walk out because he can't

550
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 7: speak and he can you know. So, I mean, they're

551
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 7: they're they're creating this controversy for themselves and the only

552
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 7: losers here in the community who still aren't getting things

553
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 7: done that would make their schools safe, you know, that

554
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 7: would you know, protect the children of the state and

555
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 7: crack down on you know, these violent criminals who you know,

556
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 7: take guns and slaughter young kids. So I mean, like,

557
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 7: I don't know how the scorecard comes out anything other

558
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 7: than you know, Jones two Legislature zero. I mean, you know,

559
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 7: it just makes no sense to me.

560
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: So you guys are both in the business of making

561
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: candidate stars, helping politicians improve their career trajectory, maybe seek

562
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: higher office. Matt, what happens to Justin Jones as he's

563
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 3: continually empowered and made a national star by the Republicans

564
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: in this chamber who want him out, Well, there's.

565
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 8: No question that we would not be spending this much

566
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 8: time on Justin Jones's speech on the floor if they

567
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 8: hadn't thrown him out of the chamber. So to your point,

568
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 8: they've really made him into a star. Whether he can

569
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 8: turn that into national office or statewide office is unclear.

570
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 8: Tennessee is very, very red. It has trended as far

571
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 8: to the right and as quickly as basically any state

572
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 8: in the country. I mean, remember, not that long ago

573
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 8: Al Gore was the Senator from Tennessee at least in

574
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 8: my lifetime, not that long ago. And they used to

575
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 8: have Democrats at all levels in Tennessee and they really

576
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 8: don't anymore. So whether there's a place for him to

577
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 8: go or not, it's not clear. But he has become

578
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 8: a national leader of this movement, and I think that

579
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 8: has really given him a voice that he wouldn't have

580
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 8: otherwise had. So it was you know, I agree, the

581
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 8: score is two to nothing, and both of them were

582
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 8: own goals on the part of the Tennessee Republicans.

583
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 3: Just a minute left, Rick, is it higher office for

584
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: someone like Justin Jones in a situation like this, or

585
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: does he go into media or is it something totally different?

586
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 7: Oh, you know, sky's a limit for a town young

587
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 7: man like him. But I certainly would put on my

588
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 7: calendar once a month, speak up, get kicked out, and

589
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 7: be on radio again.

590
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 4: I mean it's like clockwork. I would do it literally

591
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 4: once every three weeks.

592
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 7: If I were his advisor.

593
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: They seem to be ready to take the bait. That

594
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: business what we saw again in Nashville. Rick Davis and

595
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: Matt Bennett, many thanks, of course. With some final thoughts.

596
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: Next is.

597
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: The music wars get underway again. Rick Davis is no

598
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: stranger to this. What do you do when a famous

599
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: musician calls and says, stop playing my songs at your rally.

600
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: I think the answer is nothing, but we'll talk to

601
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 3: Rick about that in Matt as well. Straight ahead, I'm

602
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg.

603
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

604
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

605
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: tune in alf, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business app.

606
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

607
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

608
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: It's a story that comes up every four years. Maybe

609
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: it's every two actually, at the rate we're going here,

610
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: But certainly with each election cycle we talk about music,

611
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: popular music, and it's never quite the same when it

612
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: ends up, at least for the most part in the

613
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: campaign rallies. And that's the case here. Rick Davis knows

614
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: a little bit about this, having run the McCain campaign.

615
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 3: Think Barracuda. Donald Trump knows a bit about this, Think

616
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: the Rolling Stones. When an artist says cease and desist,

617
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 3: this time it's Vivek Ramaswami's term. Remembering, of course the

618
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 3: Eminem rap at the Iowas State Fair. We brought this

619
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 3: to you when it happened. They're still screaming about it.

620
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: By God, And now Eminem is out with the cease

621
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: and desist. He doesn't want him using his music at

622
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: the campaign side. And I don't know, Rick Davis, maybe

623
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 3: you could have told him this was coming. But the

624
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 3: point is this always ends the same way, right. There's

625
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: nothing that the musician can really do, and so vivike

626
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 3: Ramaswami will just keep wrapping Eminem.

627
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know about that.

628
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 7: I mean, song may change, but the times are the same.

629
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 7: And that is we got sued by Jackson Brown, one

630
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 7: of my favorites for using running on empty in a

631
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 7: campaign add and he used the Landham Act to go

632
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 7: after us and was successful.

633
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: So we had to apologize, we had to pay him.

634
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it was not a healthy thing for you know.

635
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 4: Music in America.

636
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 7: But the bottom line is you're right. Everybody gets sued.

637
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: I guess that's the way, Matt Bennett. Your advice for

638
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 3: vivike Ramaswami. He made a lot of fans on the stage.

639
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 8: Listen. I'll stipulate that he's a better rapper than Joe Biden,

640
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 8: but he is not a better rapper than Slim Shady,

641
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 8: and he should let the real Slim Shady do his thing.

642
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 8: One thing I'll say, though, is Democrats have an advantage

643
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 8: here because we tend not to get sued by rappers

644
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 8: and rock artists. We don't tend to use country music

645
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 8: because those people will sue us. So you've got to

646
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 8: go where you think you're gonna be successful.

647
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 3: I guess there's some truth to all of that. Matt

648
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: and Rick, thank you analysis. You can only get here

649
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 3: on sound on the fastest show in politics. I'm Joe

650
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: Matthew in Washington with a lot more to folog you

651
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: hear the news on drugs being negotiated by Medicare, we'll

652
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: have that next.

653
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the

654
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

655
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: tune in alf Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

656
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

657
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

658
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: The headline says it all Jay and j Bristol blockbusters

659
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 3: targeted for Medicare price cuts. This this dropped before the

660
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: bell and it's something that we wanted to talk about

661
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: with Riley, who's our healthcare reporter here in the bure.

662
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: Riley Griffin, it's great to see you, Thanks for joining.

663
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 3: We've got ten drugs here targeted by Medicare. They will

664
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 3: be allowed to negotiate the prices for these drugs. You

665
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: saw this coming, as did Wall Street. Is this the

666
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: first before I get into the details, the first batch

667
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: or will there be more?

668
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 9: Indeed, this is the first batch. So we saw ten

669
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 9: drugs today, We're going to see another fifteen drugs named

670
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 9: in February of next year. These ten drugs will see

671
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 9: their prices slashed for Medicare, which has sixty five million

672
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 9: beneficiaries seniors in the outset of twenty twenty six, and

673
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 9: the batch of drugs that gets tagged next year will

674
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 9: be twenty twenty seven, So it's a rolling sweep. But

675
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 9: you know, arguably this is one of the government's biggest

676
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 9: ever efforts to tackle drug costs.

677
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of the promises by Joe Biden.

678
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 4: I guess you could say agree with.

679
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: Them or not.

680
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: He's making good on that promise. These are not unknown drugs.

681
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 3: These are some of the most widely prescribed drugs. Which

682
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 3: ones stand out to you the most? When I see Lily,

683
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: which has been at a fifty two week high, I

684
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: think every day in recent memory, people start thinking diabetes,

685
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: weight loss drugs. Those are in the mix.

686
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 9: Yes, Lily is certainly an investor of favorite this past year.

687
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 9: And all together, the ten drugs named today account for

688
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 9: fifty one billion, or twenty percent of the Medicare part

689
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 9: d's annual prescription drug costs. Some notable ones I want

690
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 9: to call out Bristol Myers Adfiser's blood thinner Eloquist accounts

691
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 9: for sixteen billion annual in Medicare costs. A Lily's diabetes

692
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 9: drug as you mentioned, Jardians accounts for seven point one billion,

693
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 9: and Jay and Jay's zerelto another blood thinner for you

694
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 9: six billion in annual Medicare graps. So a smattering of

695
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 9: diabetes heart automune drugs from Merk astrozenka Amjen Abby. You've

696
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 9: heard these pharmatickers.

697
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 3: Yes, they're all on the table, and they were chosen

698
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 3: because they are the most widely prescribed or was there

699
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: more involved in more criterion.

700
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 9: So everybody who's been looking. They were chosen out of

701
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 9: a bucket of fifty drugs, and as we just mentioned,

702
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 9: there's going to be another fifteen up to bat of

703
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 9: these were surprises, some are broadly expected, and for these companies,

704
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 9: I wouldn't say these are the growth drivers for the future.

705
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 9: These are some of the bigger earners, but not the

706
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 9: biggest now. And as you're seeing the Wall Street reaction,

707
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 9: not flustered. This is something we've been expecting for quite

708
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 9: some time, and pharma has lawsuits to fight the US

709
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 9: government on this.

710
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 3: The first cuts will take effect in twenty twenty six.

711
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: In this case, does that matter who the president is

712
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six or this is happening one.

713
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: Way or the other.

714
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 9: You know, that's a great question. I think the bigger

715
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 9: question would be how does the lawsuit? How does the

716
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 9: litigation play out? Every one of these companies is going

717
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 9: to be suing.

718
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 4: The US delay implementation potentially we'll see.

719
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 9: Potentially, potentially a lot is still in the cards, and

720
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 9: the US has believes it has a really strong case

721
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 9: against these companies.

722
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 3: The big argument is that this will stifle innovation. That's

723
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: what the pharma companies would tell you, that the trade

724
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: associations would tell you. But if these are not big

725
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 3: drivers of growth, is that true?

726
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's pharma's line forever and always. I think it's

727
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 9: a real question. Another thing we're hearing from analysts today

728
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 9: actually is that some pharmaceutical companies may actually already be

729
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 9: raising drug prices. This is counterintuitive sure to mitigate those effects.

730
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 9: So you have to wonder, what are the so double

731
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 9: the price now that cut it in half later exactly exactly,

732
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 9: So we're looking for that. But across the board, analysts

733
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 9: are saying that the toll this will take on industry

734
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 9: is just about five percent of annual earning before.

735
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 3: We talk to Dona Shalala. Put this in perspective for us.

736
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: You come in to talk to us about a lot

737
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 3: of important developments in this sphere in the world that

738
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 3: you cover. How significant is this for big farmer? Because

739
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 3: it seems like a pretty darn big deal for consumers too.

740
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 9: I will say that every two every four years, both

741
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 9: Democrats and Republicans come to the table before an election

742
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 9: and say we want to tackle drug prices, we want

743
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 9: to come after the pharmaceutical industry. This is really the

744
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 9: biggest play that we've seen to date.

745
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: There you have it from Riley Griffin. Great have you been.

746
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 4: Thank you always.

747
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: Riley Bloomberg, healthcare reporter with us here on Bloomberg Sound On,

748
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: and we do want to add the voice of Donna Shalala,

749
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 3: who spent time, of course as the Secretary of Health

750
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 3: and Human Services, also former congresswoman from Florida's twenty seventh districts.

751
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: Madam Secretary, welcome back to Bloomberg. It's wonderful to have

752
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 3: you here. I'd love your perspective on this as well.

753
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: When drug companies say, hey, you're stifling innovation, the Biden

754
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 3: administration says, we're making good and a long held promise.

755
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 3: How important is this development.

756
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 10: It's very significant, and I think it's important to point

757
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 10: out that this is not an executive decision by the

758
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 10: President of the United States. He is fulfilling the obligations

759
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 10: that were put on him with his support by Congress.

760
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 10: This was passed by both the Senate and the House

761
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 10: of Representatives when the Democrats controlled the House, so it's

762
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 10: a major piece of legislation. It is also wildly popular,

763
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 10: and I think it's important to take a look at

764
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 10: the Henry J. Kaiser Foundation's poll which shows that seventy

765
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 10: seven percent of Republicans support the federal government negotiating on

766
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 10: behalf of Medicare recipients. What the Congress stripped out was

767
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 10: allowing private insurance companies to jump into this price on negotiation.

768
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 10: But my guess is that they'll take a very hard

769
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 10: look at what the pharmaceuticals agree to. How important is

770
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 10: it for the pharmaceutical companies, Well, they were expecting it,

771
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 10: and they already give discounts. The question is how the

772
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 10: negotiations will take place given the discounts that are already

773
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 10: given in the system. It's a complicated system, but it

774
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 10: certainly is going to drive down the prices. Is it

775
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 10: going to affect research? I don't think so, because if

776
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 10: you look at the legislation they allow for that. We've

777
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 10: always asked the pharmaceutical companies how much are you spending

778
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 10: on research? Not on your marketing, but how much are

779
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 10: you spending on your research, so we can protect that piece.

780
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 10: And I think it's important to point out that Americans

781
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 10: pay for that research, both through the NIH, but more importantly,

782
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 10: when the pharmaceutical companies sell these drugs abroad, they don't

783
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 10: include the price of the development of that drug. It's

784
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 10: Americans they cast back to Americans. So this is a

785
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 10: very good thing. It will be done, I think, with

786
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 10: great sensitivity to making sure that a very important industry

787
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 10: in our country, these multinational pharmaceuticals and the small startups

788
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 10: also are able to survive.

789
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 3: That was amazing, Secretary, you just asked yourself two of

790
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 3: the questions that I was looking to ask you. So

791
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 3: we're making progress here. It sounds to me like you

792
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 3: think the big pharma argument is bunk. Is that fair

793
00:42:59,520 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 3: to say?

794
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 10: Well, I don't take it as bunk. I never have

795
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 10: because I come out of the great research universities in

796
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 10: this country. All I can say to them, is I

797
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 10: believe the government is going to be careful. More importantly,

798
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 10: they are huge supporters of the NIH. They get much

799
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 10: of their licensing. Their pipeline is very dependent on the

800
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 10: National Institutes of Health. So we're paying on one end

801
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 10: and we're going to get some money out for consumers

802
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 10: on the other end. So I'm very respectful of the

803
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 10: role that pharmaceuticals play in this country. But it's about

804
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 10: time that Americans got the benefits of their huge investments

805
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 10: in the National Institutes of Health, but more importantly, that

806
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 10: they pay fair prices given what the kind of discounts

807
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 10: that the pharmaceuticals are giving to the industrialized world. And

808
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 10: Republicans understand this, by the way, that's why it's wildly popular.

809
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 3: Well, I do think it's interesting that this is obviously

810
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: something closely associated with Democrats. You know this firsthand. But

811
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 3: Donald Trump was frequently talking about wanting to be able

812
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: to buy drugs from Canada and sell them back to

813
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 3: consumers here in the US. So there does seem to

814
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 3: be some bipartisan nature when it comes to lowering the

815
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 3: price of drugs. It plays well on the campaign trail

816
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 3: never happened. We heard him talk about.

817
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 4: It a lot.

818
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, he talked about a lot. Why would the pharmaceutical

819
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 10: companies give extra drugs to Canada so that they could

820
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 10: transport them back to Florida. It makes no sense. They

821
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 10: sell to Canada based on the number of Canadians. And

822
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 10: I always thought that was funck And I kept saying

823
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 10: to everybody in Florida when the governor, Governor Desantras was

824
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 10: trying to do it, this is not going to happen.

825
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 3: We'll ask you about Governor DeSantis because he's got his

826
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 3: hands full this week. He's come off the campaign trail

827
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: as a return to your state of Florida here with

828
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 3: a massive storm approaching. He did hold a news conference

829
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 3: earlier today to give you a sense of the tone

830
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 3: and the seriousness. If you're not following this, if you're

831
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 3: not in Florida, here is the governor no longer campaigning

832
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 3: for president this week. He spoke to reporters earlier. He

833
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 3: is telling people that there's still time to prepare and

834
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 3: to get out of the storm's path. Donna, I wonder

835
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: your thoughts about his decision to come off the campaign

836
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 3: trail and to focus on the storm at home. How

837
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: is he doing well.

838
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 10: He absolutely has to do that. Florida governors and the

839
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 10: governors along the East Coast simply must do that. This

840
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 10: is far more important than any political campaign. Florida has

841
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 10: always had a bipartisan preparation. I have to say whether

842
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 10: whoever was governor, we watched them closely, but they've always

843
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 10: had an infrastructure in Florida. Floridians take hurricanes very seriously

844
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 10: and we get advanced notice. It's not like an earthquake.

845
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 10: We get really advanced notice on hurricanes. And we listened

846
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 10: to our governors, no matter whether we like their politics

847
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 10: at all, and listen to our emergency management people.

848
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 3: He was in Jacksonville just the other night as well.

849
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: He was booed at a vigil following a mass shooting

850
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: that took place there over the weekend. Tell me your

851
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 3: thoughts on the way that was handled. Did he deserve that?

852
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 10: No, No elected official who's doing the right thing and

853
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 10: paying their respects should be booed. It happens all the

854
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 10: time with Democrats and Republicans. Actually, the public doesn't much

855
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 10: like politicians when they show up for some of these events.

856
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 10: My own view is, and I've said that the students

857
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 10: at every university I've run is that you've got to

858
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 10: be respectful. You just had Rick Davis. We had John

859
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 10: McCain the weekend before the presidential election, and I got

860
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 10: thousands of students to show up for the event at

861
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 10: midnight on a Sunday night, and they couldn't have been

862
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 10: more polite. I told them by texts that they should

863
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 10: come out and meet a great man, but take off

864
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 10: their Obama buttons. And many of those students I've seen

865
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 10: since who said that they were so happy that I

866
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 10: told them to come out and listen to John McCain.

867
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 10: I believe no matter, and I don't like Rona Sadiston's

868
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 10: politics at all, but I do believe we ought to

869
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 10: be respectful.

870
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 3: Sure, and those in the crowd want his respect as well.

871
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 3: Can the Black community in Florida count on this governor.

872
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 10: No, He's done everything he could to offend not only

873
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 10: the black community, but the gay community, all of us

874
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 10: by picking on the most vulnerable in our communities. But

875
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 10: it doesn't mean that I think publicly we should show disrespect.

876
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 10: I'm just old school on that.

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00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 3: Donna, thanks for coming in to talk to us today

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00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: about any number of topics. Donna Shalela the interim president

879
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 3: at the New School, former congresswoman from Florida is twenty seventh,

880
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: and of course, former Secretary of Health and Human Services.

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00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the Sound On podcast. Make sure

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00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 3: to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and

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00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: anywhere else you get your podcasts. And you can find

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00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 3: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm

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00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.